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Nero Jove United Wolfs Nations 0	Posted - 2016.10.10 03:41:28 - [1] - Quote Just curious if a player doing nothing but continually harassing players in a system all day long would be considered griefing by CCP? It was a peaceful system until this guy showed up . First came his 10 toon ice mining fleet. Then came his griefer. He bumps and bumps and bumps. every spawn - every single day. He never misses one. The obvious answer is just leave the system, but that feels like such a cop out. Ideas of how to deal with this are appreciated.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1151	Posted - 2016.10.10 03:43:44 - [2] - Quote By CCPs outline, you would need to make an attempt to move away from the area, not just to other belts in the same system, nor just a system or two away. If you move away and he/she follows, then that might be considered harassment. Unless it's an issue that falls under rookie griefing: https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/203209712-Rookie-Griefing Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Sobaan Tali Caldari Quick Reaction Force 1047	Posted - 2016.10.10 03:54:01 - [3] - Quote It doesn't really sound like he's done anything that crosses the line where Eve is generally concerned. You could send a support ticket and try that, but I doubt anything will come of it. As you stated, your call but the best action would be to either leave, ignore, or retaliate in game within regs if you fancy. Setup a suicide gank to hit some of his alts or something. You could try to bait him into a fight he's not prepared for. Who knows, you might actually be able to turn it into something fun for both of you. "Tomahawks?" "----in' A, right?" "Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each." "----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Nero Jove United Wolfs Nations 0	Posted - 2016.10.10 03:56:19 - [4] - Quote Ugh the worst of all suggestions is always the one that feels like the worst.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 18517	Posted - 2016.10.10 04:01:05 - [5] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: The obvious answer is just leave the system, but that feels like such a cop out. and complaining on the forums about griefing is what , being proactive? have you tried ... you know ... doing something about it, like shooting him in the mouth? Praposal:Un-Fk Locator Agants Praposal:Un-Fk NPC Corps =]\|[=
Piugattuk Lima beans Corp 497	Posted - 2016.10.10 04:07:17 - [6] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: Just curious if a player doing nothing but continually harassing players in a system all day long would be considered griefing by CCP? It was a peaceful system until this guy showed up . First came his 10 toon ice mining fleet. Then came his griefer. He bumps and bumps and bumps. every spawn - every single day. He never misses one. The obvious answer is just leave the system, but that feels like such a cop out. Ideas of how to deal with this are appreciated. In general its better to leave to a more quite system with a lower population, you are going to get more scorn here then help, most people will tell you if you won't fight for it you don't deserve it. EVE is pretty big place and there no need to worry about one system, eventually someone will take care of him, I personally have a fleet of duplicate ships spread out over many systems, if there's a disruption in one system I can move to any of a number of other systems and continue the mission, check his info, what was his past Corp, this gives you a clue about what your dealing with (birds of a feather).
Nero Jove United Wolfs Nations 0	Posted - 2016.10.10 04:11:34 - [7] - Quote All good advice. Just hard to pick up and leave when you call a system home for two years. Fighting options in high security when he is an NPC corp are pretty limited.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 18517	Posted - 2016.10.10 04:14:34 - [8] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: All good advice. Just hard to pick up and leave when you call a system home for two years. Fighting options in high security when he is an NPC corp are pretty limited. errm, guns work pretty well. whats he fly? how does he fit (you know you can scan his fit right) do you know who his main is? if you do id definitly shoot that Praposal:Un-Fk Locator Agants Praposal:Un-Fk NPC Corps =]\|[=
Piugattuk Lima beans Corp 497	Posted - 2016.10.10 04:18:09 - [9] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: All good advice. Just hard to pick up and leave when you call a system home for two years. Fighting options in high security when he is an NPC corp are pretty limited. If you avoid being near trade hubs, trade routes, and go to a system far, far from large population systems, if you jump in and there's more then 10 people then its better to move till you find one that stays in the single digits, stay away from mission hubs, this attracts other cockroaches.
Sobaan Tali Caldari Quick Reaction Force 1047	Posted - 2016.10.10 04:22:28 - [10] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: All good advice. Just hard to pick up and leave when you call a system home for two years. Fighting options in high security when he is an NPC corp are pretty limited. Don't know how helpful it would be, but I'll tell you what I've done to keep the whole "pack up and move" option from being s huge pain: jump clones. I've set up shop in multiple systems across High Sec rather than what I used to do when I first started, which was to merely turtle in one or two systems. When things get a little dicey, I can simply JC out to a quieter area, then back again when things settle down. And, if you really stop to think about it, your options are hardly limited when faced with someone in an NPC corp, you just have to play by a different set of rules. You just have to think about how to use that as an advantage or against him rather than simply assume it will always be in his best interests and think nothing more of it. Just because he's found that works for him doesn't mean you can't turn it around on him and make it work for you. "Tomahawks?" "----in' A, right?" "Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each." "----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor 5904	Posted - 2016.10.10 04:29:16 - [11] - Quote Scan the ships, post the fits. Someone will be able to help you find and use the available tools like pyfa, in order to estimate the target's EHP. Then you build some ganking ships and start ganking the most valuable ships in the newcomer's fleet. Day 0 Advice for New Players
Regan Rotineque The Scope Gallente Federation 465	Posted - 2016.10.10 04:48:38 - [12] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: Just curious if a player doing nothing but continually harassing players in a system all day long would be considered griefing by CCP? It was a peaceful system until this guy showed up . First came his 10 toon ice mining fleet. Then came his griefer. He bumps and bumps and bumps. every spawn - every single day. He never misses one. The obvious answer is just leave the system, but that feels like such a cop out. Ideas of how to deal with this are appreciated. Move....if you move and he follows you and continually harasses you that is different. You have a 'choice' to stay there or simply move on. But staying in one system and claiming they are not letting you play does not compute....you can move...go to a different system. There are literally thousands of them to visit and explore. That or hire someone to grief him back, 10 toon ice mining fleet, sounds like CODE should investigate....
Vincent Pelletier Pelletier Imports and Exports 57	Posted - 2016.10.10 05:13:42 - [13] - Quote It's not griefing, the fact that he's brought in his own ice miners clearly indicates that he is competing for resources so stop playing the victim. You have 2 choices: 1) accept his dominance 2) do something about it #1 would result in you moving away #2 would involve learning about pvp/combat and/or making friends with people who know pvp/combat (your current corp/alliance doesn't)
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2877	Posted - 2016.10.10 06:50:10 - [14] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: All good advice. Just hard to pick up and leave when you call a system home for two years. Fighting options in high security when he is an NPC corp are pretty limited. Say thanks to all the highsec carebears who cried so hard year after year so that CCP removed all options and made it possible to create practically ungankable mining fleets. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 17741	Posted - 2016.10.10 06:57:30 - [15] - Quote Equip higgs anchors and outmine him. Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him. GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2878	Posted - 2016.10.10 06:59:33 - [16] - Quote Regan Rotineque wrote: That or hire someone to grief him back, 10 toon ice mining fleet, sounds like CODE should investigate.... We are not your personal police. Also the OP has no mining permit. Maybe he should look for another Highsec elite-PvP content creator if there is even one left. Otherwise he probably has to move or abandon ice mining. Or mine ice in lowsec where you can actually shoot your competition with a reasonable amount of fire power without losing more assets than the gankee. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Escore Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2016.10.10 07:51:46 - [17] - Quote So if like me you have spent your entire life in EVE just doing the industry thing... where is the best place to go to get PVP'd up so to speak, Or do I would I just gank fit a load of frigates up and go see what happen. Lets be honest frigates and there fittings are mostly free for me as I can make and fit them myself.. but when it comes to actually fighting other players with them I would be a complete virgin.
Chopper Rollins Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1607	Posted - 2016.10.10 08:01:10 - [18] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: ... Just hard to pick up and leave when you call a system home for two years. Fighting options in high security when he is an NPC corp are pretty limited. IT'S TIME TO GET OUT OF HISEC. Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Nahkep Narmelion The Scope Gallente Federation 69	Posted - 2016.10.10 08:23:07 - [19] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: By CCPs outline, you would need to make an attempt to move away from the area, not just to other belts in the same system, nor just a system or two away. If you move away and he/she follows, then that might be considered harassment. Sounds from your explanation that it's a guy competing with you for resources. I doubt, based on what CCP has previously said, that it would be considered harassment, but a petition would be the only way to know. Unless it's an issue that falls under rookie griefing: https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/203209712-Rookie-Griefing As for how to deal, get together with others and bump his fleet out of mining range. Wardec him. Gank his fleet. Hire mercs. Do unto others as they have done unto you, but x10. It's the Eve way. This. If you have made a good faith effort to avoid this player and they are following YOU around and harassing YOU, then you have a case. Baring that, you have very little to stand on.
Nahkep Narmelion The Scope Gallente Federation 69	Posted - 2016.10.10 08:24:42 - [20] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Nero Jove wrote: The obvious answer is just leave the system, but that feels like such a cop out. and complaining on the forums about griefing is what , being proactive? have you tried ... you know ... doing something about it, like shooting him in the mouth? This too... How about you get in a gank destroyer and push in his poop?
Nahkep Narmelion The Scope Gallente Federation 69	Posted - 2016.10.10 08:26:27 - [21] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: All good advice. Just hard to pick up and leave when you call a system home for two years. Fighting options in high security when he is an NPC corp are pretty limited. Tell that to CCP which has been removing your options over time....your problem is not with this player but with CCP, IMO.
Goati State War Academy Caldari State 11	Posted - 2016.10.10 09:35:45 - [22] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: Just curious if a player doing nothing but continually harassing players in a system all day long would be considered griefing by CCP? It was a peaceful system until this guy showed up . First came his 10 toon ice mining fleet. Then came his griefer. He bumps and bumps and bumps. every spawn - every single day. He never misses one. The obvious answer is just leave the system, but that feels like such a cop out. Ideas of how to deal with this are appreciated. Why can't you just bump him back? Surely you can bump his orca or freighter back in return. You can even bump the miners.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 13	Posted - 2016.10.10 09:43:40 - [23] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: Just curious if a player doing nothing but continually harassing players in a system all day long would be considered griefing by CCP? It was a peaceful system until this guy showed up . First came his 10 toon ice mining fleet. Then came his griefer. He bumps and bumps and bumps. every spawn - every single day. He never misses one. The obvious answer is just leave the system, but that feels like such a cop out. Ideas of how to deal with this are appreciated. Go to http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map pick a region and check the systems for Jumps in a 24 hour period, ship kills in a 24 hour period and NPC kills. Find your self a nice home, plenty come with free tumble weeds these days and set up camp. You might lose a day moving but it is better than logging on to put up with some asshat.
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1924	Posted - 2016.10.10 10:05:54 - [24] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Nero Jove wrote: All good advice. Just hard to pick up and leave when you call a system home for two years. Fighting options in high security when he is an NPC corp are pretty limited. Say thanks to all the highsec carebears who cried so hard year after year so that CCP removed all options and made it possible to create practically ungankable mining fleets. I'm not sure suicide ganking was intended to be profitable at any point of time. And if you make ISK other way then you have no 'practically ungankable' stuff. It is even more possible in this case when people competing for resources. Then expence for ganking can be looked at as investment. The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Eternus8lux8lucis Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 1026	Posted - 2016.10.10 10:34:23 - [25] - Quote Escore wrote: So if like me you have spent your entire life in EVE just doing the industry thing... where is the best place to go to get PVP'd up so to speak, Or do I would I just gank fit a load of frigates up and go see what happen. Lets be honest frigates and there fittings are mostly free for me as I can make and fit them myself.. but when it comes to actually fighting other players with them I would be a complete virgin. For ganking there is nothing better than reading up on CODE and what they do, as sad as I must admit this. They have great resources and intel about ganking and fits. For any other pvp its very much a toss up in who you meet along your travels. Like real life its often your contacts and opportunities because of those contacts that give you social mobility at the right time. But RvB used to be good for tossing away ships, FW should heat up greatly as well and Eve Uni is still alive and kicking. Other than that your learning to swim on your own by getting into the water and trying it out. So if you arent a determinant SOB who keeps trying most often PvP will chew you up and spit you out. Then theres even other issues like what kind of PvP do you enjoy? Solo/yolo? Small gang? Large Fleet? Ganking? Piracy? High sec? Low sec? Null sec? Wormholes? Though some mechanics are the same there are a lot of subtle nuances to each area to exploit it and learn things from a brand new newb perspective. But in the end theres only one way your ever going to learn..... get out there and START. Have you heard anything I've said? You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right? That's right. Had to end sometime.
Inxentas Ultramar Ultramar Independent Contracting 1745	Posted - 2016.10.10 12:16:09 - [26] - Quote Is this guy in a NPC corp? If not, this is what wardecs are for.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 17745	Posted - 2016.10.10 12:30:38 - [27] - Quote Inxentas Ultramar wrote: Is this guy in a NPC corp? If not, this is what wardecs are for. That would be too easy, but then he could always disband the corp he is in. Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him. GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14812	Posted - 2016.10.10 12:40:12 - [28] - Quote Escore wrote: So if like me you have spent your entire life in EVE just doing the industry thing... where is the best place to go to get PVP'd up so to speak, Or do I would I just gank fit a load of frigates up and go see what happen. Lets be honest frigates and there fittings are mostly free for me as I can make and fit them myself.. but when it comes to actually fighting other players with them I would be a complete virgin. After spending a year running missions and such I joined Faction Warfare when it was first introduced. I think it's still a very good stepping stone into pvp. There are high sec mercenary groups but I don't know much about joining them. Then of course there are the new pvp'r friendly groups mostly in null. Pandemic Horde, Brave Newbies, my own Alliance (TEST) has several newbro friendly groups, so do Goons and others. And hell, you don't even have to join anything, frigates and destroyers and cheap and low sec is free lol. It's easier now to jump into pvp than it ever was, just have to do it.
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2886	Posted - 2016.10.10 14:10:49 - [29] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: Nero Jove wrote: All good advice. Just hard to pick up and leave when you call a system home for two years. Fighting options in high security when he is an NPC corp are pretty limited. Say thanks to all the highsec carebears who cried so hard year after year so that CCP removed all options and made it possible to create practically ungankable mining fleets. I'm not sure suicide ganking was intended to be profitable at any point of time. And if you make ISK other way then you have no 'practically ungankable' stuff. It is even more possible in this case when people competing for resources. Then expence for ganking can be looked at as investment. I did not say anything about profitable. In fact it is extremely far from profitable if the other guy is fielding a fleet of tanked Skiffs, so far in fact that you would infest a lot more of ISK into the ganks than you would cause damage to the other guy. And that's not even taking insurances and problems with sec status into account if some miner company decides they want to do something about the multiboxer. There are also no mercs in this business, since the logistics and costs for something like this would be so high, no miner corp would pay it. So yes in theory you can gank them if you get 15-40 people together depending on system sec. In practice, not so much. This is a problem the Highsec carebears created themselves by crying for more security. OP, if you are really interested in staying and want them removed contact me via evemail. But this will be expensive. There is no one else who is able to help you, so we kinda dictate the price. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2886	Posted - 2016.10.10 14:31:34 - [30] - Quote Escore wrote: So if like me you have spent your entire life in EVE just doing the industry thing... where is the best place to go to get PVP'd up so to speak, Or do I would I just gank fit a load of frigates up and go see what happen. Lets be honest frigates and there fittings are mostly free for me as I can make and fit them myself.. but when it comes to actually fighting other players with them I would be a complete virgin. Ok, so here is an example of what you can do: join faction warfare and get some frigate you like. Then check the killboards and ask in corp chat for some example fitting. Fit it the way you think it makes sense, insure it and go out there until it dies. After it died you analyse what went wrong. You adjust the fitting, read up on stuff you did not understand and then you go out there again. Also very important, try to contact your killer, say gf and ask them what you did wrong. They will most likely help you improve a lot faster than you would on your own and even provide their favoured fits. Also this is a good way to find a nice corp, because people out there are looking for this kind of player and not for some crybabies who curses them for blowing up their pixle spaceships :-) the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Jhani Bralhast 7	Posted - 2016.10.10 14:41:05 - [31] - Quote As a career solo hi-sec miner (with occasional forays into null-sec corp mining), I honestly don't see what the problem the OP has other than being too stubborn to move to a quieter system. There are other hi-sec systems too numerous to count where you could get away from this so-called griefer and maintain your basic level of productivity. When the gankers get a bit too thick in my system of choice, I simply move a system or two over and never see them at all. Ever. Sure I may lose a few minutes trucking my ore over to be processed, but that's a minor inconvenience at best. Far less annoying than dodging gangs of Catalysts roaming about every 15 minutes.
Minabunny Dread Guard 70	Posted - 2016.10.10 15:10:33 - [32] - Quote These are the type of players that CCP markets too -- They will do nothing. You will have to move to another system. If you like to mine I would suggest considering moving to a worm hole. I'm sure you could find a small WH industry corp, or one that simply rents space or if you have enough Isk you could find a system and put up your own citadel. While it may seem more dangerous as there is no 'local' as a early warning system (use dscan) and no concord you will find players that frequent WH space are not interested in harassing you on a daily basis. They will just attack . There was a time in my eve career where that's all I did was mine in HS. I can tell you from my experience you will deal with far less griefers in the hole and be much more profitable.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 18530	Posted - 2016.10.10 15:33:25 - [33] - Quote Inxentas Ultramar wrote: Is this guy in a NPC corp? If not, this is what wardecs are for. Yeah he is, it's probably an alt of one of the other local ice miner's though ( Trixie little ~~hobbyists~~ miners , Ralph knows) If he can figure out who that is he would be better for slapping them about. Praposal:Un-Fk Locator Agants Praposal:Un-Fk NPC Corps =]\|[=
Yossarian Toralen M and M Enterpises 75	Posted - 2016.10.10 20:51:32 - [34] - Quote Orbit the ice, it's very hard to hit a moving target. The only problem is you have to pay attention to the game as your ship will drift off into the distance when the chunk of ice is gone.
Sitting Bull Lakota SBL Co 172	Posted - 2016.10.10 21:57:11 - [35] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: Just curious if a player doing nothing but continually harassing players in a system all day long would be considered griefing by CCP? It was a peaceful system until this guy showed up . First came his 10 toon ice mining fleet. Then came his griefer. He bumps and bumps and bumps. every spawn - every single day. He never misses one. The obvious answer is just leave the system, but that feels like such a cop out. Ideas of how to deal with this are appreciated. Gank his fleet. My interpretation of the Holy Code is that it is our collective responsibility to protect His fields from wanton greed and bot-aspirancy. His agents are as monks. They spread the good news, act in His name, collect alms, and make pilgrimages to the First Field. They are reliable, but sadly not ever present. As His faithful, we should ensure that blasphemies of the kind you describe do not go unanswered. Take up the catalyst and purge these transgressors from your midst. Back to reality for a moment. This guy probably has all of his alts in NPC corp to keep them safe from wardecs. After the November update, combined with the many incremental nerfs to "content creation" this guy's ice fleet will be very nearly invulnerable. He will be safe from all but the most dedicated of suicide gank attacks. Now, he is altering the game immensely for the normal residents of this system, and there is not a thing they will be able to do about it. This is why NPC corps need to be vulnerable to wardecs.
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor 5915	Posted - 2016.10.10 22:18:18 - [36] - Quote Nahkep Narmelion wrote: Nero Jove wrote: All good advice. Just hard to pick up and leave when you call a system home for two years. Fighting options in high security when he is an NPC corp are pretty limited. Tell that to CCP which has been removing your options over time....your problem is not with this player but with CCP, IMO. Not really CCP's fault. Players are becoming more efficient at their specialisations too. Ice miners have optimised their fleets, gankers have optimised their fittings. Chances are if you are in a belt long enough, you will get blown up and sometimes podded. Day 0 Advice for New Players
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony 841	Posted - 2016.10.11 04:16:08 - [37] - Quote Surely you can gank the bumping ship, yes?
Yossarian Toralen M and M Enterpises 76	Posted - 2016.10.11 06:28:07 - [38] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Surely you can gank the bumping ship, yes? No, Concord protects bumpers and that's why I can't understand the butthurt when they say stuff like "Say thanks to all the highsec carebears who cried so hard year after year so that CCP removed all options and made it possible to create practically ungankable mining fleets." Bumpers are only in highsec for a reason, Concord protection.
13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 182	Posted - 2016.10.11 06:32:16 - [39] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Nero Jove wrote: All good advice. Just hard to pick up and leave when you call a system home for two years. Fighting options in high security when he is an NPC corp are pretty limited. errm, guns work pretty well. whats he fly? how does he fit (you know you can scan his fit right) do you know who his main is? if you do id definitly shoot that Devils abdicate here, Suppose he's in an NPC corp so there's no legal way to wardec him, and thus any attempts to shoot him yield the loss of sec status and ship? NPC corps are the best way to grief bump others continuously, as we are seeing. The game mechanics do not allow for revenge without taking huge penalties over time. Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2893	Posted - 2016.10.11 07:19:46 - [40] - Quote Yossarian Toralen wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Surely you can gank the bumping ship, yes? No, Concord protects bumpers and that's why I can't understand the butthurt when they say stuff like "Say thanks to all the highsec carebears who cried so hard year after year so that CCP removed all options and made it possible to create practically ungankable mining fleets." Bumpers are only in highsec for a reason, Concord protection. So usually the discussion goes like this: If the ganker kills a mining ship then: - CONCORD is too weak and does not really protect the mining ship - There are no real consequences for criminal actions - Sec status is meaningless - Killrights are meaningless - Low value ships killing high value ships is not balanced - Ganking is too easy and only scrubs who would fails at realPVPGäó do it If the miner wants to kill a bumper then: - CONCORD is too strong and protecting the bumper! - Can't attack because consequences are too stronk! - My precious sec status! - They will even get a killright and I will not be able to undock a ship FOR A MONTH! - I will lose ISK if I gank the bumper because ganking ships are so expensive! - I don't even know where to start, ganking is too hard and everyone will just shoot me!! I actually thought about starting a mining operation myself recently, because if an ice system is left to itself there are fleets of miners stripping the new anomany in a hour or two, there seams to be competition around ice but only on the level of who mines more faster. Yet when I warp in with my scout, half the people dock immediately and the rest after one or two of their firends exploded. If there is a skiff fleet left you can easily get rid of them by bumping their Orca out. So I am not surprised this is actually starting to happen. I think it is a really good strategy to kill/bump your competition and get all the ice for yourself. On the other hand I find it quite ironic that miners now cry how they can do nothing about those competitive miners because they actually locked themselves out of the tools to actually fight the guy with their constant demands for more safety. So excuse me when I point at them and laugh the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18282	Posted - 2016.10.11 07:36:43 - [41] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: Nero Jove wrote: All good advice. Just hard to pick up and leave when you call a system home for two years. Fighting options in high security when he is an NPC corp are pretty limited. Say thanks to all the highsec carebears who cried so hard year after year so that CCP removed all options and made it possible to create practically ungankable mining fleets. I'm not sure suicide ganking was intended to be profitable at any point of time. And if you make ISK other way then you have no 'practically ungankable' stuff. It is even more possible in this case when people competing for resources. Then expence for ganking can be looked at as investment. CCP changed the nature of the game. Used to be you were safe from ganking if you fitted a token tank that made you unprofitable to gank (unless something like hulkageddon or an ice interdiction was happening but those were rare). Now everything aside from a skiff is a target and ganked because gankers simple target everything no matter the fit.
Anthar Thebess 1657	Posted - 2016.10.11 09:28:48 - [42] - Quote Problem is that CCP tries to do EVE dumb prof to get more players, and yet biggest online was before this changes where made. With the old mechanics griefing was never huge issue, as you could counter play it quite easily. Ganking recently became some issue to players also because of the changes CCP introduced over the time. Constant buff to possible targets made some people to quit, but most of them to organize into bigger groups and train additional gank characters. 50 people working separately cannot do as much chaos like 50 people working together. Big gank groups allow fast responses, choke point monitoring but also require higher activity so every one get daily kills. Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists Show your support to The Cause!
Gregorius Goldstein Ze One Man Show 678	Posted - 2016.10.11 10:36:55 - [43] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: Just curious if a player doing nothing but continually harassing players in a system all day long would be considered griefing by CCP? It was a peaceful system until this guy showed up . First came his 10 toon ice mining fleet. Then came his griefer. He bumps and bumps and bumps. every spawn - every single day. He never misses one. The obvious answer is just leave the system, but that feels like such a cop out. Ideas of how to deal with this are appreciated. Cloak up and check if he uses bots. If he isn't everything else is fair game per EVE standards. Having the numbers/power/dedication to drive others from your turf is what EVE is mostly about anyway. If you are scard of 10 miners/mining accounts and one bumper you should do something about that.
Anne Dieu-le-veut Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People 289	Posted - 2016.10.11 11:33:30 - [44] - Quote Yossarian Toralen wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Surely you can gank the bumping ship, yes? No, Concord protects bumpers and that's why I can't understand the butthurt when they say stuff like "Say thanks to all the highsec carebears who cried so hard year after year so that CCP removed all options and made it possible to create practically ungankable mining fleets." Bumpers are only in highsec for a reason, Concord protection. False. Concord punishes the gankers afterwards. They do not prevent ganks or protect the bumper. What is he using to bump? Most belt bumping I've seen has been with, at best, a speed fit faction cruiser. It doesn't take many destroyers to gank one of those.
tiberiusric Comply Or Die 260	Posted - 2016.10.11 12:17:15 - [45] - Quote Wardec or keep bumping All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit
Yossarian Toralen M and M Enterpises 76	Posted - 2016.10.12 03:03:56 - [46] - Quote Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote: Yossarian Toralen wrote: Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Surely you can gank the bumping ship, yes? No, Concord protects bumpers and that's why I can't understand the butthurt when they say stuff like "Say thanks to all the highsec carebears who cried so hard year after year so that CCP removed all options and made it possible to create practically ungankable mining fleets." Bumpers are only in highsec for a reason, Concord protection. False. Concord punishes the gankers afterwards. They do not prevent ganks or protect the bumper. What is he using to bump? Most belt bumping I've seen has been with, at best, a speed fit faction cruiser. It doesn't take many destroyers to gank one of those. You can mine all day in low and null and never see someone annoying a miner by bumper them, shooting yes, but never bumping. You can bump all day in highsec all under the protection of Concord, anything that could catch and keep a point on it would be a wreck before bump ship is.
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony 845	Posted - 2016.10.12 04:55:17 - [47] - Quote Yup. When living in regulated space, expect the rules to sometimes favour the other guy. (although it's still my opinion bumping is a bad mechanic, bumping and ganking are unfortunately also the ONLY mechanics with which you can interact with NPC duders .....) As I'm sure others already advised: if you're not a spacelawyer, there is nothing worthwhile in highsec. Get out of there, quickly! Cheers, -El Brokkmeister
Penance Toralen Compass Fox 19	Posted - 2016.10.12 05:41:59 - [48] - Quote Switch to an Endurance and orbit. Hire some Mercs Move Systems get some friends and bump The fleet would have a Off-Grd Booster. In a month it will have be on-grid and vulnerable.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26961	Posted - 2016.10.12 13:16:11 - [49] - Quote Yossarian Toralen wrote: You can bump all day in highsec all under the protection of Concord Concord aren't there to protect people, they're there to punish them for breaking the only law in hisec, which is that you don't activate an offensive module on another capsuleer without sanction. Also this Concord Guy's Cousin wrote: The only things that Concord protects are beyond the door, especially the donut shops that can be found on level 2 of the food mall present in every station. Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Rhalina Sedai Notice Has Been Served 35	Posted - 2016.10.12 13:28:17 - [50] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: Just curious if a player doing nothing but continually harassing players in a system all day long would be considered griefing by CCP? It was a peaceful system until this guy showed up . First came his 10 toon ice mining fleet. Then came his griefer. He bumps and bumps and bumps. every spawn - every single day. He never misses one. The obvious answer is just leave the system, but that feels like such a cop out. Ideas of how to deal with this are appreciated. Here is a couple of suggestions, log in every day with a fast ship and start bumping his mining fleet. Also give his mining toons a 315 315 bounty. Drop corp so you can't be decked as well. If your really twisted you could also send a covert message to the so called New Order telling them there is a juicy mining fleet ready for the picking. FSOP (Free Systems of Panorad)
Anne Dieu-le-veut Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People 289	Posted - 2016.10.12 13:33:01 - [51] - Quote Yossarian Toralen wrote: You can mine all day in low and null and never see someone annoying a miner by bumper them, shooting yes, but never bumping. You can bump all day in highsec all under the protection of Concord, anything that could catch and keep a point on it would be a wreck before bump ship is. No point in bumping a miner in low sec. The only reason you're being bumped in high sec is because he doesn't have enough DPS to solo gank you before Concord arrives. You don't have to be able to catch him. Fleet with bumped ship. Warp to zero on the bumped ship. Gank bumper.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5293	Posted - 2016.10.12 17:23:17 - [52] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: Just curious if a player doing nothing but continually harassing players in a system all day long would be considered griefing by CCP? It was a peaceful system until this guy showed up . First came his 10 toon ice mining fleet. Then came his griefer. He bumps and bumps and bumps. every spawn - every single day. He never misses one. The obvious answer is just leave the system, but that feels like such a cop out. Ideas of how to deal with this are appreciated. Get some buddies and shoot him in the face. War dec him, and shoot him in the face some more. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5293	Posted - 2016.10.12 17:30:48 - [53] - Quote 13kr1d1 wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Nero Jove wrote: All good advice. Just hard to pick up and leave when you call a system home for two years. Fighting options in high security when he is an NPC corp are pretty limited. errm, guns work pretty well. whats he fly? how does he fit (you know you can scan his fit right) do you know who his main is? if you do id definitly shoot that Devils abdicate here, Suppose he's in an NPC corp so there's no legal way to wardec him, and thus any attempts to shoot him yield the loss of sec status and ship? NPC corps are the best way to grief bump others continuously, as we are seeing. The game mechanics do not allow for revenge without taking huge penalties over time. Wait wut?!?!?!?! Isn't the narrative that there are no penalties to ganking!?!?!?!? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Fecal Fingers Drama Inc. Coalition of the Unfortunate 0	Posted - 2016.10.12 18:59:12 - [54] - Quote I've been going to the doctor for regular checkups and cancer screenings and have been cancer free... up until I read this post.
Commander Spurty 1643	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:20:56 - [55] - Quote I've got 8 points of sec status I can waste on wasting him if that's helpful. Obviously I don't care a whole ton about the repercussions. I live in null. Would be a special trip for a special soldier There are good ships, And wood ships, And ships that sail the sea But the best ships are Spaceships Built by CCP
Spurty 1649	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:20:56 - [56] - Quote I've got 8 points of sec status I can waste on wasting him if that's helpful. Obviously I don't care a whole ton about the repercussions. I live in null. Would be a special trip for a special soldier There are good ships, And wood ships, And ships that sail the sea But the best ships are Spaceships Built by CCP
pajedas Special Activities Division 273	Posted - 2016.10.13 04:16:48 - [57] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: have you tried ... you know ... doing something about it, like shooting him in the mouth? WTF does that even mean Ralph? "Bloody Toilet, Guilty Miner, Part 1" Gÿà That's the kind of content james315 creates.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5331	Posted - 2016.10.13 04:26:04 - [58] - Quote pajedas wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: have you tried ... you know ... doing something about it, like shooting him in the mouth? WTF does that even mean Ralph? You get in a ship, fly up to his bumping ship and shoot him....the "in the mouth" is just colorful language. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
ISD Fractal isd community communications liaisons 1261	Posted - 2016.10.13 13:16:55 - [59] - Quote I removed a post that did not contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way. ISD Fractal Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Rush Crosix The Black Crow Bandits Sarcos Federation 0	Posted - 2016.10.13 17:20:48 - [60] - Quote I feel like the conversation should probably have a bit more information added to it in order to come to a rational suggestion. -How many accounts are you running for your mining operation/how many others are there (approx) -Do you make enough to be able to afford a suicide ganking squad? -Do you make enough to replace ships if/when they are suicide ganked? Reason I mention this is to establish what the loss value is. It would come down to this: IF they are suicide ganking you, and its not a 'CODE' group or some group of that establishment, then is he killing enough to make it unprofitable to mine out there? If it is becoming too much of a problem, then I would suggest taking CODE up on their offer. They might be willing to camp him out for a high price. Just make sure you can financially back it up. Hope this helps. -Rush
Bing Bangboom DAMAG Safety Commission 557	Posted - 2016.10.13 17:31:27 - [61] - Quote The OP is a known rebel miner who sometimes whore's on to CONCORD kills as Code enforcement is taking place in the system he prefers, Kino. He's a highsec alt of an organization that supports their worm hole activities by AFK mining in highsec for ice. Usually in a fleet of skiffs. His definition of griefing is someone interfering with the flow of ice into his ships. He has, rudely in my opinion, declined to buy a mining permit and does not follow the Code requirement of keeping local clear of profanities. As is usual in situations like this he wants CCP to save him from interaction with other players. As best I can tell he and his counterparts have been driven from Kino by the bumper. AND I deny that Kino has ever been a peaceful system... Highsec is worth fighting for. By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.-á www.minerbumping.com
Naimh 2	Posted - 2016.10.13 17:39:16 - [62] - Quote ISD Fractal wrote: I removed a post that did not contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way. Careful now, follow that thread too far and you may as well just set the place ablaze. Knock Knock
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 1213	Posted - 2016.10.13 17:44:48 - [63] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: Just curious if a player doing nothing but continually harassing players in a system all day long would be considered griefing by CCP? It was a peaceful system until this guy showed up . First came his 10 toon ice mining fleet. Then came his griefer. He bumps and bumps and bumps. every spawn - every single day. He never misses one. The obvious answer is just leave the system, but that feels like such a cop out. Ideas of how to deal with this are appreciated. Switch to the ice mining ore t2 frigate. Use a 10 mn Afterburner. Orbit the ice at 2500m or so. Mine away. Chances are, you will be too fast to be bumped.
Alessienne Ellecon Solitude Rangers 61	Posted - 2016.10.14 07:25:23 - [64] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Regan Rotineque wrote: That or hire someone to grief him back, 10 toon ice mining fleet, sounds like CODE should investigate.... We are not your personal police. Also the OP has no mining permit. Maybe he should look for another Highsec elite-PvP content creator if there is even one left. Because gods forbid you lot ever do anything useful, right? Rush Crosix wrote: If it is becoming too much of a problem, then I would suggest taking CODE up on their offer. They might be willing to camp him out for a high price. Just make sure you can financially back it up. I would suggest, as others have in this thread, that the OP acquaint himself with the various social mechanics of EVE and hire some mercenaries to take care of the bumper (who is probably an affiliate of CODE anyway). Learn to play the game instead of sitting on the forums and whining.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5359	Posted - 2016.10.14 07:48:22 - [65] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Regan Rotineque wrote: That or hire someone to grief him back, 10 toon ice mining fleet, sounds like CODE should investigate.... We are not your personal police. Also the OP has no mining permit. Maybe he should look for another Highsec elite-PvP content creator if there is even one left. Because gods forbid you lot ever do anything useful, right?[quote] I consider punishing the imprudent useful. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Sitting Bull Lakota SBL Co 175	Posted - 2016.10.14 08:14:28 - [66] - Quote So your only options are: Bump or suicide gank him Hire someone to bump/gank him Politely ask him to stop Give up and leave Safety sure is inconvenient.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5359	Posted - 2016.10.14 08:16:09 - [67] - Quote Sitting Bull Lakota wrote: So your only options are: Bump or suicide gank him Hire someone to bump/gank him Politely ask him to stop Give up and leave Safety sure is inconvenient. Safety? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Gokigenyou State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.10.16 13:17:44 - [68] - Quote http://afgdistribution.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/999x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/t/st1117.jpg
Toobo Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium 293	Posted - 2016.10.16 14:33:13 - [69] - Quote You can win the ISK war in game while losing the ISK war on the Killboard. It's simple. If the guy has 1b and you have 10b, and let's say for every one of his ships you suicide gank you lose double the ISK he loses. So he may think you are a fool as you are losing more ISK than him per gank. But if you do it enough times, he will have 0 ISK while you have 8b ISK left in game. He can't call you a fool anymore then. :) "When faced with my demons, I clothe them and feed them, and I smile, yes I smile as they are taking me over" - Strange Glue
Alana Packham Wardec Solutions 16	Posted - 2016.10.16 14:34:25 - [70] - Quote This is happening a lot lately, huge fleets on people's doorsteps are nothing new but appearing at every spawn, in npc corps, running their own bump and gank fleets that is. Most of this has been said but : 1. you have 3 toon slots on each account, make a mining alt or 2 and keep them in a quieter system. It can be useful if you want more iskies as you can switch between spawn's (any dedicated ice miner should have at least 1 alt miner on the same account). 2. if you move make a low isk, disposable bumper and bump the **** out of him. If he is running a fleet he is either jet canning or feeding orca, shoot his cans, bump his orca, nudge his hauler, you'll have spare time in between your new spawns. he won't leave but you can have fun, teach the kids, they'll enjoy it. 3. code are a useful tool just don't let them know it (oops its out now), go to uedama and shout that there is a hulk fleet in that system, you won't see them for dust. you're mining in your new system, who cares if they camp the place for a month? failing that look up the local system killmails (dotlan is good for that) to find the local ganker and bait them into thinking you run the big fleet. 4. never hire anyone to do rubbish like this, they'll just follow you and bait you into paying over and over again, you'll be classed as an easy mark. even if the perp is an a pc corp hi sec wars are so pointless the only thing paying a merc corp will do is cost you isk. I used to take work from people, hire merc's through another alt and so far I have seen 1 kill in however many years. (why Alana is now a forum toon, started to feel like I was robbing people) 5a. You never said your own setup, is this bloke there in other peoples retaliation against you? Do you have 20 accounts and his gank fleet is there to get rid of you? or 5b. If you are flying a solo, tanked skiff and you are awake there is not a lot that a solo ganker can do within game rules to kill you. He can't log in and move 10 cats to you quick enough that you cant warp away, if he is chasing you around the system he isn't mining, someone has to pay for all those accounts... pretty poinless points I know. I'm extremely surprised you've been mining for 2 years and never moved before, please give code your address, you need more training. p.s. I might be retired but I still know a bit, I won't give clean alt names, gank names or even the miner names but take a tour around Ignebaener on American tz's and see what there is too see. p.p.s. this isn't directed at code, really, honestly. Its not that the Dev's have never been hi-sec miners, more that if they ever admitted it they'd be designing new pattern's in the dust as they sweep the car park. Would you employ someone who spends all day mining in hi?
Arcelian Metentis 204	Posted - 2016.10.17 16:54:59 - [71] - Quote Sitting Bull Lakota wrote: Nero Jove wrote: Just curious if a player doing nothing but continually harassing players in a system all day long would be considered griefing by CCP? It was a peaceful system until this guy showed up . First came his 10 toon ice mining fleet. Then came his griefer. He bumps and bumps and bumps. every spawn - every single day. He never misses one. The obvious answer is just leave the system, but that feels like such a cop out. Ideas of how to deal with this are appreciated. Gank his fleet. My interpretation of the Holy Code is that it is our collective responsibility to protect His fields from wanton greed and bot-aspirancy. His agents are as monks. They spread the good news, act in His name, collect alms, and make pilgrimages to the First Field. They are reliable, but sadly not ever present. As His faithful, we should ensure that blasphemies of the kind you describe do not go unanswered. Take up the catalyst and purge these transgressors from your midst. Back to reality for a moment. This guy probably has all of his alts in NPC corp to keep them safe from wardecs. After the November update, combined with the many incremental nerfs to "content creation" this guy's ice fleet will be very nearly invulnerable. He will be safe from all but the most dedicated of suicide gank attacks. Now, he is altering the game immensely for the normal residents of this system, and there is not a thing they will be able to do about it. This is why NPC corps need to be vulnerable to wardecs. What? Why? I read the entirety of the November release updates, didn't see anything that would cause a mining fleet to be "invulnerable" unless I missed something important.
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2926	Posted - 2016.10.18 16:47:26 - [72] - Quote Alessienne Ellecon wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: Regan Rotineque wrote: That or hire someone to grief him back, 10 toon ice mining fleet, sounds like CODE should investigate.... We are not your personal police. Also the OP has no mining permit. Maybe he should look for another Highsec elite-PvP content creator if there is even one left. Because gods forbid you lot ever do anything useful, right? You think you are doing something useful? This is a video game. You mine pixel rocks to produce pixel spaceships. If you think that is useful I recommend a serious dose of anti-matter, that usually does the trick. If it ever feels like I do something useful and not just for fun in this game I will quit and play another game to have fun again. Seriously, this is pure entertainment and not my daily chore. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2926	Posted - 2016.10.18 17:20:20 - [73] - Quote Arcelian wrote: What? Why? I read the entirety of the November release updates, didn't see anything that would cause a mining fleet to be "invulnerable" unless I missed something important. Yes, you missed the words 'nearly' and 'all but the most dedicated' the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Francis Raven ExDominion Evictus. 42	Posted - 2016.10.18 17:40:39 - [74] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: By CCPs outline, you would need to make an attempt to move away from the area, not just to other belts in the same system, nor just a system or two away. If you move away and he/she follows, then that might be considered harassment. Sounds from your explanation that it's a guy competing with you for resources. I doubt, based on what CCP has previously said, that it would be considered harassment, but a petition would be the only way to know. Unless it's an issue that falls under rookie griefing: https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/203209712-Rookie-Griefing As for how to deal, get together with others and bump his fleet out of mining range. Wardec him. Gank his fleet. Hire mercs. Do unto others as they have done unto you, but x10. It's the Eve way. Well said! ExDominion \| Nullsec Corporation \| Website \| Forums \| Established Nov. 2015 \|
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 1214	Posted - 2016.10.18 17:41:08 - [75] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Arcelian wrote: What? Why? I read the entirety of the November release updates, didn't see anything that would cause a mining fleet to be "invulnerable" unless I missed something important. Yes, you missed the words 'nearly' and 'all but the most dedicated' But yet Will it be 'nearly' or rather now easier to grief? Currently, the boosting orca, and let's face it if the guy has 10 ice miners chances are, there is an orca boosting, is located at a POS, citadel, or is on station. You can't see who is boosting but he is there. There may also be a command ship that is also boosting. Come November, those ships will have to be on grid and in close proximity to the mining vessels. Just start learning to bump the orca. That action will most likely frustrate the miner as he will have his ships set to orbit or keep the orca at range. Every bump will disturb the fleet. And it is far easier to hit an orca with a bump ship than an exhumed or mining barge. Additionally, there are no changed planned that impact the mining vessels so killing them will be no different. So how will November make it harder? If anything, it will be easier to harass this person out of the belt with bumping tactics.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1191	Posted - 2016.10.18 17:52:01 - [76] - Quote Lady Ayeipsia wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: Arcelian wrote: What? Why? I read the entirety of the November release updates, didn't see anything that would cause a mining fleet to be "invulnerable" unless I missed something important. Yes, you missed the words 'nearly' and 'all but the most dedicated' But yet Will it be 'nearly' or rather now easier to grief? Currently, the boosting orca, and let's face it if the guy has 10 ice miners chances are, there is an orca boosting, is located at a POS, citadel, or is on station. You can't see who is boosting but he is there. There may also be a command ship that is also boosting. Come November, those ships will have to be on grid and in close proximity to the mining vessels. Just start learning to bump the orca. That action will most likely frustrate the miner as he will have his ships set to orbit or keep the orca at range. Every bump will disturb the fleet. And it is far easier to hit an orca with a bump ship than an exhumed or mining barge. Additionally, there are no changed planned that impact the mining vessels so killing them will be no different. So how will November make it harder? If anything, it will be easier to harass this person out of the belt with bumping tactics. How effectively does a catalyst bump an Orca? Doesn't the whole 'just bump the orca' assumption also assume that current gank characters can all just jump in a Machariel with perfect skills for the standard bump fit? From what I see of a lot of gank characters from their killboards, catalyst is all they fly. I'm sure there will be an increase in bumping, but not as simple as a switch of ships. Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18314	Posted - 2016.10.18 17:56:24 - [77] - Quote Lady Ayeipsia wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: Arcelian wrote: What? Why? I read the entirety of the November release updates, didn't see anything that would cause a mining fleet to be "invulnerable" unless I missed something important. Yes, you missed the words 'nearly' and 'all but the most dedicated' But yet Will it be 'nearly' or rather now easier to grief? Currently, the boosting orca, and let's face it if the guy has 10 ice miners chances are, there is an orca boosting, is located at a POS, citadel, or is on station. You can't see who is boosting but he is there. There may also be a command ship that is also boosting. Come November, those ships will have to be on grid and in close proximity to the mining vessels. Just start learning to bump the orca. That action will most likely frustrate the miner as he will have his ships set to orbit or keep the orca at range. Every bump will disturb the fleet. And it is far easier to hit an orca with a bump ship than an exhumed or mining barge. Additionally, there are no changed planned that impact the mining vessels so killing them will be no different. So how will November make it harder? If anything, it will be easier to harass this person out of the belt with bumping tactics. Come November you don't need the orca for boosts.
Jenna Kyriel Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 11	Posted - 2016.10.18 20:15:47 - [78] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Nero Jove wrote: All good advice. Just hard to pick up and leave when you call a system home for two years. Fighting options in high security when he is an NPC corp are pretty limited. Say thanks to all the highsec carebears who cried so hard year after year so that CCP removed all options and made it possible to create practically ungankable mining fleets. Are you COMPLAINING that EHP's are TO HIGH? Silly, what are you, a CAREBEAR? Adapt and overcome, it's a numbers-game, one your little alliance of null-alt gankers should figure out right away and deal with. Unless ofc you would rather go to the forums and whine to people that high-sec dwellers have made is TO HARD for you to suicide-gank them on a regular basis. If that's the case, I don't think you will be getting much sympathy, being some nameless alt in CODE after all. @ OP - as others have made clear, you have two options: Give in and move out. Or... Find some way to resist. I'd go for the suicide-strike his fleet option myself, but if you can't or won't do that, I am VERY SURE there are others who will gladly accept your ISK to get rid of his ships for you. Another player has decided to contest your stuff. It's is not CCP's job to ensure fairness, that you get a fair piece of the riches - it's YOUR JOB to ensure that. Or don't. I suspect it's all the same to the guy with 10 miner bots.
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 62	Posted - 2016.10.18 20:48:07 - [79] - Quote Jenna Kyriel wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: Nero Jove wrote: All good advice. Just hard to pick up and leave when you call a system home for two years. Fighting options in high security when he is an NPC corp are pretty limited. Say thanks to all the highsec carebears who cried so hard year after year so that CCP removed all options and made it possible to create practically ungankable mining fleets. Are you COMPLAINING that EHP's are TO HIGH? Silly, what are you, a CAREBEAR? Adapt and overcome, it's a numbers-game, one your little alliance of null-alt gankers should figure out right away and deal with. Unless ofc you would rather go to the forums and whine to people that high-sec dwellers have made is TO HARD for you to suicide-gank them on a regular basis. If that's the case, I don't think you will be getting much sympathy, being some nameless alt in CODE after all. Lol the visceral hatred is palpable with this one. *Please learn to use the words to, too, and two before posting on the internet, thank you.
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2928	Posted - 2016.10.18 21:35:10 - [80] - Quote Jenna Kyriel wrote: Are you COMPLAINING that EHP's are TO HIGH? Silly, what are you, a CAREBEAR? Adapt and overcome, it's a numbers-game, one your little alliance of null-alt gankers should figure out right away and deal with. Unless ofc you would rather go to the forums and whine to people that high-sec dwellers have made is TO HARD for you to suicide-gank them on a regular basis. If that's the case, I don't think you will be getting much sympathy, being some nameless alt in CODE after all. Calm down miner. I never said I could not gank miners. Check my killboard, I obviously adapted. I just pointed out that the OP can not gank the bumper because all the whining locked him and all the people who can't even adapt to the simplest change out of the mechanic. Project some more tears. The buffs to EHP have actually quite an interesting effect. If the game forces you to adapt you may as well improve and not just compensate while your at it. So today I can gank a bigger range of ships than before the last EHP buff. There are already plans in the drawer for the next time, but I am just too lazy to implement them now. I am sure the next ganking nerf is just around the corner and will do the trick. It is never too late to get a permit friend. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18315	Posted - 2016.10.18 21:50:55 - [81] - Quote Jenna Kyriel wrote: Another player has decided to contest your stuff. It's is not CCP's job to ensure fairness, that you get a fair piece of the riches - it's YOUR JOB to ensure that. Would have been nice for CCP to follow this line of thought rather than spend 5 years nerfing pvp into the ground in highsec to keep miners safe.
Alana Packham Wardec Solutions 16	Posted - 2016.10.18 22:18:12 - [82] - Quote hmmm, Ima Wreckyou, Oppold area, code, multibox (possibly), ganker, spam dueller. (might be wrong maybe its 1 person and the others are another but who cares, its code, there is definitely a code multiboxer as part of that team). Won't try to gank a tank even with the alts (or possible friend), so one of them spams duel requests until someone says yes. If no one does they sit there and moan about people not duelling because they have no 'honor' (can't even spell the word properly, bloody foreigners). Not even worth replying to, but if he gets on your nerves fly over to Minmater, hang around the Oppold area and after the ganks he (or the possible friend) sends an alt to clean up in an Orca, its called resuply truck or something similar. KILL THAT ORCA gank the gank lol and please remember code only exist because some people still don't realise that skiffs are the only ships that miners should use in hi. Its not that the Dev's have never been hi-sec miners, more that if they ever admitted it they'd be designing new pattern's in the dust as they sweep the car park. Would you employ someone who spends all day mining in hi?
Alana Packham Wardec Solutions 16	Posted - 2016.10.18 22:42:42 - [83] - Quote a quick point about hiring mercs. Myself and my other half both multi-box, we have characters in most part of the game including hi-sec mining, this is something that a character in one of her mining corps received: I am opening up diplomatic talks with your corp and need a POC within your corp ,someone who can talk on the corps behalf. we have been offered 1 bil isk to war dec you to deny your indy operations. we have carried out our recces and are aware that you operate orca supported ining fleets with skiffs supported by charon. if you check our killboard you will see that we are the most effective corp in our regions, you as a corp have stepped on someones toes but as we are isk motivated we fell it is only fair to offer you the option to buy a potection policy ? the policy covers -assists in wars against you -war decs on your behalf -asset, system denial -asset protection/ removal (citadel) the cost of the policy is 1.5 bil with life time membership to our special blue standing list access to our int channel. this was from an active merc corp that have multiple war dec's and a lot of members who do kill people, it just shows if you hire someone they will sell you out, scam you or just plain rip you off. the misus answer was 'go ahead we get war decc'd a lot have a lot of alts and just leave corp if we want to use a toon in that corp'. the war dec never came, mercs in hi sec are a joke. Its not that the Dev's have never been hi-sec miners, more that if they ever admitted it they'd be designing new pattern's in the dust as they sweep the car park. Would you employ someone who spends all day mining in hi?
pajedas Special Activities Division 273	Posted - 2016.10.18 23:16:33 - [84] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Would have been nice for CCP to follow this line of thought rather than spend 5 years nerfing pvp into the ground in highsec to keep miners safe. I think the whole, "your tears fuel me" is lame and over used. That being said, you just filled a couple Orca's fuel tanks in HS. I know you're a little slow but let me try to explain something to you. In all societies there are basically two groups of people. "The Haves and the Have Nots". Some of the "Haves" got to where they are by doing nothing. Like Paris Hilton for instance. However, the vast majority have worked to get there. For this discussion, we'll call them "Producers". Which brings us to the other group, the "Have Nots". Unfortunately this group tends to yield unsavory bi-products, like you. The guy that is unable or unwilling to work and acquire goods and services. It's much easier to just go out and take it from the closest and weakest Producer you can find. Don't get me wrong, I can empathize with you. We've all felt like giving into our base (basic) desire. To want or need something so much that our impulse overwhelms our principles. See: "The exception rather than the rule." Your quote up there Gåæ tells me the whole story. You've established such a pattern of taking from the "Haves" that you've become entitled. You honestly believe that you deserve what others have worked to accumulate. You can call it whatever you want, it doesn't change the facts. OP does not mine and does not own an Orca. All references directed at baltec1 are limited to his, "in game" persona and are not meant hurt his little feelings. Gankers are lazy. Gÿà Mass Test Gÿà*
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2928	Posted - 2016.10.18 23:22:39 - [85] - Quote Alana Packham wrote: Won't try to gank a tank even with the alts (or possible friend), so one of them spams duel requests until someone says yes. If no one does they sit there and moan about people not duelling because they have no 'honor' (can't even spell the word properly, bloody foreigners). Lol, by spaming you mean the one request I sent to some mad miner who told me to destroy "our base" but CONCORD protects us. So I challenged him and tried to get him to accept. He did not. So I wardeced them and the next day the ran 32 jumps into a starter system. Also by all means, come and gank the Orca or the looter :-) the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 24	Posted - 2016.10.19 00:23:40 - [86] - Quote pajedas wrote: baltec1 wrote: Would have been nice for CCP to follow this line of thought rather than spend 5 years nerfing pvp into the ground in highsec to keep miners safe. I think the whole, "your tears fuel me" is lame and over used. That being said, you just filled a couple Orca's fuel tanks in HS. I know you're a little slow but let me try to explain something to you. In all societies there are basically two groups of people. "The Haves and the Have Nots". Some of the "Haves" got to where they are by doing nothing. Like Paris Hilton for instance. However, the vast majority have worked to get there. For this discussion, we'll call them "Producers". Which brings us to the other group, the "Have Nots". Unfortunately this group tends to yield unsavory bi-products, like you. The guy that is unable or unwilling to work and acquire goods and services. It's much easier to just go out and take it from the closest and weakest Producer you can find. Don't get me wrong, I can empathize with you. We've all felt like giving into our base (basic) desire. To want or need something so much that our impulse overwhelms our principles. See: "The exception rather than the rule." Your quote up there Gåæ tells me the whole story. You've established such a pattern of taking from the "Haves" that you've become entitled. You honestly believe that you deserve what others have worked to accumulate. You can call it whatever you want, it doesn't change the facts. OP does not mine and does not own an Orca. All references directed at baltec1 are limited to his, "in game" persona and are not meant hurt his little feelings. *Gankers are lazy. This is why societies form the rule of law because without it producers move elsewhere to where there is the rule of law. Unfortunately this being a game for entertainment, the majority of the productive citizens have moved on to pastures greener and the have nots are now apparently ganking anything that moves. Personally I would like to see a story in the News feed about the head of CONCORD being tried and shot for incompetence. Take Metropolis where the gankers are very active atm or Domain. The kills in Hi-sec are massively higher than in lo-sec. Ganking has become to cheap and easy and the gankers as you pointed out too entitled. The criminals are on a massive spree and the police are completely useless. No society can continue to operate with the levels of crime that are currently occurring in this game and have been occurring since the crime watch and the destroyers rebalance in Retribution, in December 2012. Then to kick miners in the guts again they made Ice mining into anomalies in June 2013. So the miners income fell as the gankers got better organised, risk vs reward was busted for mining and industry and the people left.
Penance Toralen Compass Fox 19	Posted - 2016.10.19 00:37:01 - [87] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Jenna Kyriel wrote: Another player has decided to contest your stuff. It's is not CCP's job to ensure fairness, that you get a fair piece of the riches - it's YOUR JOB to ensure that. Would have been nice for CCP to follow this line of thought rather than spend 5 years nerfing pvp into the ground in highsec to keep miners safe. It would be really nice in pvp against miners was actually about "the stuff". But it never really about Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon or Isogen - but mundane hydrogen, oxygen, sodium and chloride for harvesting.
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 64	Posted - 2016.10.19 02:31:28 - [88] - Quote pajedas wrote: baltec1 wrote: Would have been nice for CCP to follow this line of thought rather than spend 5 years nerfing pvp into the ground in highsec to keep miners safe. I think the whole, "your tears fuel me" is lame and over used. That being said, you just filled a couple Orca's fuel tanks in HS. I know you're a little slow but let me try to explain something to you. In all societies there are basically two groups of people. "The Haves and the Have Nots". Some of the "Haves" got to where they are by doing nothing. Like Paris Hilton for instance. However, the vast majority have worked to get there. For this discussion, we'll call them "Producers". Which brings us to the other group, the "Have Nots". Unfortunately this group tends to yield unsavory bi-products, like you. The guy that is unable or unwilling to work and acquire goods and services. Lmaololololololol ahah! aha! aha! (Wipes away tear)... In all seriousness though, carebears are food.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5380	Posted - 2016.10.19 02:42:10 - [89] - Quote pajedas wrote: baltec1 wrote: Would have been nice for CCP to follow this line of thought rather than spend 5 years nerfing pvp into the ground in highsec to keep miners safe. I think the whole, "your tears fuel me" is lame and over used. That being said, you just filled a couple Orca's fuel tanks in HS. I know you're a little slow but let me try to explain something to you. In all societies there are basically two groups of people. "The Haves and the Have Nots". Some of the "Haves" got to where they are by doing nothing. Like Paris Hilton for instance. However, the vast majority have worked to get there. For this discussion, we'll call them "Producers". Which brings us to the other group, the "Have Nots". Unfortunately this group tends to yield unsavory bi-products, like you. The guy that is unable or unwilling to work and acquire goods and services. It's much easier to just go out and take it from the closest and weakest Producer you can find. Don't get me wrong, I can empathize with you. We've all felt like giving into our base (basic) desire. To want or need something so much that our impulse overwhelms our principles. See: "The exception rather than the rule." Your quote up there Gåæ tells me the whole story. You've established such a pattern of taking from the "Haves" that you've become entitled. You honestly believe that you deserve what others have worked to accumulate. You can call it whatever you want, it doesn't change the facts. OP does not mine and does not own an Orca. All references directed at baltec1 are limited to his, "in game" persona and are not meant hurt his little feelings. Gankers are lazy. Step away from Atlas Shrugged* before you hurt yourself. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
pajedas Special Activities Division 274	Posted - 2016.10.19 02:59:04 - [90] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Step away from Atlas Shrugged before you hurt yourself. Sorry, I never saw it. Gÿà Mass Test Gÿà
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5380	Posted - 2016.10.19 03:12:30 - [91] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: pajedas wrote: baltec1 wrote: Would have been nice for CCP to follow this line of thought rather than spend 5 years nerfing pvp into the ground in highsec to keep miners safe. I think the whole, "your tears fuel me" is lame and over used. That being said, you just filled a couple Orca's fuel tanks in HS. I know you're a little slow but let me try to explain something to you. In all societies there are basically two groups of people. "The Haves and the Have Nots". Some of the "Haves" got to where they are by doing nothing. Like Paris Hilton for instance. However, the vast majority have worked to get there. For this discussion, we'll call them "Producers". Which brings us to the other group, the "Have Nots". Unfortunately this group tends to yield unsavory bi-products, like you. The guy that is unable or unwilling to work and acquire goods and services. It's much easier to just go out and take it from the closest and weakest Producer you can find. Don't get me wrong, I can empathize with you. We've all felt like giving into our base (basic) desire. To want or need something so much that our impulse overwhelms our principles. See: "The exception rather than the rule." Your quote up there Gåæ tells me the whole story. You've established such a pattern of taking from the "Haves" that you've become entitled. You honestly believe that you deserve what others have worked to accumulate. You can call it whatever you want, it doesn't change the facts. OP does not mine and does not own an Orca. All references directed at baltec1 are limited to his, "in game" persona and are not meant hurt his little feelings. Gankers are lazy. This is why societies form the rule of law because without it producers move elsewhere to where there is the rule of law. Unfortunately this being a game for entertainment, the majority of the productive citizens have moved on to pastures greener and the have nots are now apparently ganking anything that moves. Personally I would like to see a story in the News feed about the head of CONCORD being tried and shot for incompetence. Take Metropolis where the gankers are very active atm or Domain. The kills in Hi-sec are massively higher than in lo-sec. Ganking has become to cheap and easy and the gankers as you pointed out too entitled. The criminals are on a massive spree and the police are completely useless. No society can continue to operate with the levels of crime that are currently occurring in this game and have been occurring since the crime watch and the destroyers rebalance in Retribution, in December 2012. Then to kick miners in the guts again they made Ice mining into anomalies in June 2013. So the miners income fell as the gankers got better organised, risk vs reward was busted for mining and industry and the people left. There is plenty of "rule of law". If you get into a corporation in Goonswarm I'm sure they'll let you produce all you want. Many of them will even buy it. And there will be a "rule of law" that you can benefit from so long as you are in their sov space. In fact, even in HS, there is plenty of rule of law--i.e. the law is if you are an idiot you'll lose your stuff....so don't be an idiot. Do NOT put too much ISK value into your hauler. Do NOT autopilot through choke point systems. Do use a scout if you have valuable cargo. Do NOT try to go through a choke point gankers are active. Do tank your ship. Do have an emergency cyno if y ou are using a JF. Do randomize your trip--i.e. dock up for periods of time in various systems to throw off the gankers...all have you to do is wait for somebody who is ignoring these points. Do use a blockade runner if you are moving high value low volume cargo. If you practice all or some of these you'll be less of a gank target than if you just go about your business like a stupid fool. As for getting better organized...maybe you should stop and think about continuing nerfs to ganking. The more they are nerfed, the gankers innovate and short circuit the attempts to nerf ganking. Ever hear of the law of unintended consequences? Well there you go. And please, you do not understand risk vs. reward here. Not in the least. Ganking miners is rarely a profitable endeavor. The only ones really doing it are CODE. and those who get reimbursement from James 315. As for freighter ganking, the people getting ganked...they are seeking* risk. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5380	Posted - 2016.10.19 03:14:45 - [92] - Quote pajedas wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Step away from Atlas Shrugged before you hurt yourself. Sorry, I never saw it. Apparently as it is a book...although somebody might have made it into a movie. But you sound just like the main character and your little speech was very much like what an Objectivist would write.... Problem is in this world, what you do not seem to grasp is that without the destruction and mayhem that goes on in the game, industrial players would soon find they have no market. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
pajedas Special Activities Division 274	Posted - 2016.10.19 04:01:32 - [93] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: what you do not seem to grasp LOL. Okay, I lack comprehension. Be that as it may, your thinking is just plain sdrawkcA ssaB. When we meet the threshold of, "(the law of) diminishing returns" let me know. Economic Forces of Oppression wrote: This chapter discusses three main forces of economic oppression: oppressive economic systems (capitalism and socialism), direct forces of economic oppression, and indirect forces of economic oppression. It is argued that while capitalism and socialism are not intrinsically oppressive, both systems lend themselves to oppression in characteristic ways, and therefore each sort of system must take certain steps to guard against their respective characteristic oppressions. Direct forces of economic oppression are restrictions on opportunities that are applied from the outside on the oppressed, including enslavement, segregation, employment discrimination, group-based harassment, opportunity inequality, neocolonialism, and governmental corruption. Direct forces may not always be clearly visible, either because they happen far from the reach of legal authorities or from the view of consumers, or because they are diffused in a large society, and only apparent from a statistical analysis and comparison among social groups. In indirect forces, or oppression by choice, the oppressed are co-opted into making individual choices that add to their own oppression. When this force is at work the oppressed are faced with options that rationally induce them to choose against the collective good of their social group, and in the long run, against their own good as well. But choosing otherwise requires choosing against their own immediate interests, and changing their beliefs or preferences in ways that they may resent. You're wrong, I'm right...get used to it. Gÿà Mass Test Gÿà
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 45193	Posted - 2016.10.19 04:14:33 - [94] - Quote I'm surprised the thread went for nearly 3 1/2 pages before switching to the old arguments about ganking. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2016.10.19 06:01:51 - [95] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: pajedas wrote: baltec1 wrote: Would have been nice for CCP to follow this line of thought rather than spend 5 years nerfing pvp into the ground in highsec to keep miners safe. I think the whole, "your tears fuel me" is lame and over used. That being said, you just filled a couple Orca's fuel tanks in HS. I know you're a little slow but let me try to explain something to you. In all societies there are basically two groups of people. "The Haves and the Have Nots". Some of the "Haves" got to where they are by doing nothing. Like Paris Hilton for instance. However, the vast majority have worked to get there. For this discussion, we'll call them "Producers". Which brings us to the other group, the "Have Nots". Unfortunately this group tends to yield unsavory bi-products, like you. The guy that is unable or unwilling to work and acquire goods and services. It's much easier to just go out and take it from the closest and weakest Producer you can find. Don't get me wrong, I can empathize with you. We've all felt like giving into our base (basic) desire. To want or need something so much that our impulse overwhelms our principles. See: "The exception rather than the rule." Your quote up there Gåæ tells me the whole story. You've established such a pattern of taking from the "Haves" that you've become entitled. You honestly believe that you deserve what others have worked to accumulate. You can call it whatever you want, it doesn't change the facts. OP does not mine and does not own an Orca. All references directed at baltec1 are limited to his, "in game" persona and are not meant hurt his little feelings. Gankers are lazy. This is why societies form the rule of law because without it producers move elsewhere to where there is the rule of law. Unfortunately this being a game for entertainment, the majority of the productive citizens have moved on to pastures greener and the have nots are now apparently ganking anything that moves. Personally I would like to see a story in the News feed about the head of CONCORD being tried and shot for incompetence. Take Metropolis where the gankers are very active atm or Domain. The kills in Hi-sec are massively higher than in lo-sec. Ganking has become to cheap and easy and the gankers as you pointed out too entitled. The criminals are on a massive spree and the police are completely useless. No society can continue to operate with the levels of crime that are currently occurring in this game and have been occurring since the crime watch and the destroyers rebalance in Retribution, in December 2012. Then to kick miners in the guts again they made Ice mining into anomalies in June 2013. So the miners income fell as the gankers got better organised, risk vs reward was busted for mining and industry and the people left. There is plenty of "rule of law". If you get into a corporation in Goonswarm I'm sure they'll let you produce all you want. Many of them will even buy it. And there will be a "rule of law" that you can benefit from so long as you are in their sov space. In fact, even in HS, there is plenty of rule of law--i.e. the law is if you are an idiot you'll lose your stuff....so don't be an idiot. Do NOT put too much ISK value into your hauler. Do NOT autopilot through choke point systems. Do use a scout if you have valuable cargo. Do NOT try to go through a choke point gankers are active. Do tank your ship. Do have an emergency cyno if y ou are using a JF. Do randomize your trip--i.e. dock up for periods of time in various systems to throw off the gankers...all have you to do is wait for somebody who is ignoring these points. Do use a blockade runner if you are moving high value low volume cargo. If you practice all or some of these you'll be less of a gank target than if you just go about your business like a stupid fool. As for getting better organized...maybe you should stop and think about continuing nerfs to ganking. The more they are nerfed, the gankers innovate and short circuit the attempts to nerf ganking. Ever hear of the law of unintended consequences? Well there you go. And please, you do not understand risk vs. reward here. Not in the least. Ganking miners is rarely a profitable endeavor. The only ones really doing it are CODE. and those who get reimbursement from James 315. As for freighter ganking, the people getting ganked...they are seeking* risk. So to sum it up your advice is don't be rich in hi-sec. So much for the rule of law. As to risk vs reward, I think I understand it better than you. The gankers risk is minuscule in the respect they can continuously do it with no real effects.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5381	Posted - 2016.10.19 06:33:11 - [96] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: So to sum it up your advice is don't be rich in hi-sec. So much for the rule of law. As to risk vs reward, I think I understand it better than you. The gankers risk is minuscule in the respect they can continuously do it with no real effects. No, if you want a quick summary: Don't be imprudent. If you put 8 billion in your freighter, you are being imprudent. No, you don't know anything about risk. You see, when you put 8 billion ISK worth of cargo in your freighter and then activate autopilot through Uedama you are seeking risk. You are doing things that make it more likely you will be ganked. To then turn around and complain about risk vs. reward makes you look foolish on top of imprudent. The ganker's are the one's who understand risk vs. reward. They know if they gank 20 freighters each with 6 billion in loot that they'll end up with about 60 billion. Take away their upside FFS. You whine and complain but do nothing...or worse do imprudent things. If you broke that 6 billion down into smaller loads you'd be a much less attractive target. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mara Pahrdi The Order of Anoyia 1231	Posted - 2016.10.19 06:36:52 - [97] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: pajedas wrote: baltec1 wrote: Would have been nice for CCP to follow this line of thought rather than spend 5 years nerfing pvp into the ground in highsec to keep miners safe. I think the whole, "your tears fuel me" is lame and over used. That being said, you just filled a couple Orca's fuel tanks in HS. I know you're a little slow but let me try to explain something to you. In all societies there are basically two groups of people. "The Haves and the Have Nots". Some of the "Haves" got to where they are by doing nothing. Like Paris Hilton for instance. However, the vast majority have worked to get there. For this discussion, we'll call them "Producers". Which brings us to the other group, the "Have Nots". Unfortunately this group tends to yield unsavory bi-products, like you. The guy that is unable or unwilling to work and acquire goods and services. It's much easier to just go out and take it from the closest and weakest Producer you can find. Don't get me wrong, I can empathize with you. We've all felt like giving into our base (basic) desire. To want or need something so much that our impulse overwhelms our principles. See: "The exception rather than the rule." Your quote up there Gåæ tells me the whole story. You've established such a pattern of taking from the "Haves" that you've become entitled. You honestly believe that you deserve what others have worked to accumulate. You can call it whatever you want, it doesn't change the facts. OP does not mine and does not own an Orca. All references directed at baltec1 are limited to his, "in game" persona and are not meant hurt his little feelings. Gankers are lazy. This is why societies form the rule of law because without it producers move elsewhere to where there is the rule of law. Unfortunately this being a game for entertainment, the majority of the productive citizens have moved on to pastures greener and the have nots are now apparently ganking anything that moves. Personally I would like to see a story in the News feed about the head of CONCORD being tried and shot for incompetence. Take Metropolis where the gankers are very active atm or Domain. The kills in Hi-sec are massively higher than in lo-sec. Ganking has become to cheap and easy and the gankers as you pointed out too entitled. The criminals are on a massive spree and the police are completely useless. No society can continue to operate with the levels of crime that are currently occurring in this game and have been occurring since the crime watch and the destroyers rebalance in Retribution, in December 2012. Then to kick miners in the guts again they made Ice mining into anomalies in June 2013. So the miners income fell as the gankers got better organised, risk vs reward was busted for mining and industry and the people left. There is plenty of "rule of law". If you get into a corporation in Goonswarm I'm sure they'll let you produce all you want. Many of them will even buy it. And there will be a "rule of law" that you can benefit from so long as you are in their sov space. In fact, even in HS, there is plenty of rule of law--i.e. the law is if you are an idiot you'll lose your stuff....so don't be an idiot. Do NOT put too much ISK value into your hauler. Do NOT autopilot through choke point systems. Do use a scout if you have valuable cargo. Do NOT try to go through a choke point gankers are active. Do tank your ship. Do have an emergency cyno if y ou are using a JF. Do randomize your trip--i.e. dock up for periods of time in various systems to throw off the gankers...all have you to do is wait for somebody who is ignoring these points. Do use a blockade runner if you are moving high value low volume cargo. If you practice all or some of these you'll be less of a gank target than if you just go about your business like a stupid fool. As for getting better organized...maybe you should stop and think about continuing nerfs to ganking. The more they are nerfed, the gankers innovate and short circuit the attempts to nerf ganking. Ever hear of the law of unintended consequences? Well there you go. And please, you do not understand risk vs. reward here. Not in the least. Ganking miners is rarely a profitable endeavor. The only ones really doing it are CODE. and those who get reimbursement from James 315. As for freighter ganking, the people getting ganked...they are seeking* risk. So to sum it up your advice is don't be rich in hi-sec. Sorry, but I couldn't help it... Remove insurance.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2840	Posted - 2016.10.19 06:41:00 - [98] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: I'm surprised the thread went into its 5th page before switching to the old arguments about ganking. :) Indeed. It's one of those local minima for which discussion find their way to and are trapped in. I think the ISD should be around shortly to put this thread to bed. But to summarize OP: 1) No, it is to griefing for a player to attempt to control a specific resource in this game. Arguably, it is one of the main points of the game. Griefing has a specific meaning which has already been provided, but in a competitive game like Eve this is normal game play. Griefing is only a thing that CCP will step in on if it is persistent harassment against a specific person who has made an attempt to move, or against rookies. There is no "peaceful system" in New Eden. 2) No, there is nothing you can do under the current game mechanics other than try the same to out-compete him (if he is in the NPC corp). Ganking a Skiff fleet is completely uneconomical and would hurt you more than him if you tried. That said, the Skiff (and the Procurer) are pretty bump-resistant so if you fit your own Skiff with a prop mod, you can orbit and ignore his bumping attempts. If he is taking up all the resource with his multibox fleet, you have to get more miners to race him to them or as you concluded, move on. That lack of options is the price of all the buffs to highsec safety over the years. Carebears wanted to be able to isolate themselves from the other players in this MMO which seemed like a good idea at the time, but of course that means both their rivals and the criminals also enjoy equal immunity to their attacks now. The 8 Golden Rules of Eve Why Do They Gank?
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5381	Posted - 2016.10.19 06:56:53 - [99] - Quote pajedas wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: what you do not seem to grasp LOL. Okay, I lack comprehension. Be that as it may, your thinking is just plain sdrawkcA ssaB. When we meet the threshold of, "(the law of) diminishing returns" let me know. Economic Forces of Oppression wrote: This chapter discusses three main forces of economic oppression: oppressive economic systems (capitalism and socialism), direct forces of economic oppression, and indirect forces of economic oppression. It is argued that while capitalism and socialism are not intrinsically oppressive, both systems lend themselves to oppression in characteristic ways, and therefore each sort of system must take certain steps to guard against their respective characteristic oppressions. Direct forces of economic oppression are restrictions on opportunities that are applied from the outside on the oppressed, including enslavement, segregation, employment discrimination, group-based harassment, opportunity inequality, neocolonialism, and governmental corruption. Direct forces may not always be clearly visible, either because they happen far from the reach of legal authorities or from the view of consumers, or because they are diffused in a large society, and only apparent from a statistical analysis and comparison among social groups. In indirect forces, or oppression by choice, the oppressed are co-opted into making individual choices that add to their own oppression. When this force is at work the oppressed are faced with options that rationally induce them to choose against the collective good of their social group, and in the long run, against their own good as well. But choosing otherwise requires choosing against their own immediate interests, and changing their beliefs or preferences in ways that they may resent. You're wrong, I'm right...get used to it. No you are wrong. If we were in the real world where where we were talking about capital accumulation you'd have a point, but we aren't. Ships in game exist primarily for one reason...to be blown up. Without that, you as an industrialist would have nothing to do. I do not need 2 or 3 ishtars in that case, I just need 1. Once I have multiple fittings to handle my needs...I wouldn't buy anymore modules either. Even if we had something like capital (and I mean plant and equipment) we wouldn't have depreciation. POS do not wear out. Things do not break. So only via ships going boom in cold harsh space keeps the moon goo flowing, the miners munching rocks, and so forth. Without massive ship loss prices would crash. Yes, trust me, I am well aware of things like opportunity cost, probably far better than you. I have read Frederic Bastiat and his essay That Which is Seen That Which is Not Seen. In fact, that is a good essay, especially this game. See, in that economy things do wear out and need replacing, that "wear and tear" is what keeps the cobbler and the glazier employed. But in this economy we do not have that. There is no wear and tear on your ship. You can fly an obelisk from Dodixie to Jita 1,000 times and it would not suffer any depreciation. You'd never have to say, "Hmmm, the poor thing needs to be replaced." So this economy needs ships going boom as it substitutes for that wear and tear. And there is no real innovation of items in game. I can't invent T4 or T5 modules. I can't combing T2 and factions stuff to make a T2 Faction module. So there isn't even the idea of buy an upgrade to the Ishtar. We have to wait to see if CCP provides and if they do, great then we can all buy it...and reprocess our older model ishtars and sell them for a trivial amount of ISK. Maybe if we had a growing population kind of like in the old Solow-Swan growth models. Then we could have economic growth, but since we currently have a shrinking population that doesn't really work too well either. And look, again depreciation and capital accumulation show up. So like Bastiat's essay, without ships going boom you'd have nowhere to sell your ore, no reason to build ships. No reason to build modules. We could all just content ourselves building and selling things like ammo, but any margins would be razor thin. No, ships, POS, and stuff blowing up in game is EVEs version of depcreciation. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5381	Posted - 2016.10.19 07:03:16 - [100] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: That lack of options is the price of all the buffs to highsec safety over the years. Carebears wanted to be able to isolate themselves from the other players in this MMO which seemed like a good idea at the time, but of course that means both their rivals and the criminals also enjoy equal immunity to their attacks now. I love it when the Law of Unintended Consequences bites HS dwellers on their collective asses. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5381	Posted - 2016.10.19 07:06:30 - [101] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: I'm surprised the thread went into its 5th page before switching to the old arguments about ganking. Well, it is the usual mantra of the HS industrialist. Should I tell them that the fees they'll pay in NS are much, much lower. And in some cases no taxes either? And with a JF you can move your stuff around quite easily and even more safely than with a freighter? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2016.10.19 07:23:10 - [102] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: I'm surprised the thread went into its 5th page before switching to the old arguments about ganking. Well, it is the usual mantra of the HS industrialist. Should I tell them that the fees they'll pay in NS are much, much lower. And in some cases no taxes either? And with a JF you can move your stuff around quite easily and even more safely than with a freighter? Except in NS you either join some huge alliance and do what you are told or you try it yourself and get slaughtered or spend ages docked up waiting for a blob to go through. A lot of people want casual play and that is what Hi-sec is for, except it is now more dangerous than lo-sec for miners, so it has been killing off Industrialists and miners since the destroyer rebalance and then the Ice going into anomalies. Greater risk, lower income = result no fun = people went else where for fun.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5381	Posted - 2016.10.19 07:28:30 - [103] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: I'm surprised the thread went into its 5th page before switching to the old arguments about ganking. Well, it is the usual mantra of the HS industrialist. Should I tell them that the fees they'll pay in NS are much, much lower. And in some cases no taxes either? And with a JF you can move your stuff around quite easily and even more safely than with a freighter? Except in NS you either join some huge alliance and do what you are told or you try it yourself and get slaughtered or spend ages docked up waiting for a blob to go through. A lot of people want casual play and that is what Hi-sec is for, except it is now more dangerous than lo-sec for miners, so it has been killing off Industrialists and miners since the destroyer rebalance and then the Ice going into anomalies. Greater risk, lower income = result no fun = people went else where for fun. "Doing what you are told to do" is actually not that big a deal. I spent years in HS with alts inventing, producing, and doing PI, and helping the alliance run a reaction chain and made billions. To be allowed to do all that I had my main get in fleets and shoot ****. I enjoyed both so it was not a high price at all. And I have had my mining alt out mining in belts in a 0.5 system and have not seen CODE. once. Of course I mine in a skiff. But that is the end game for mining. You either mine in a skiff or procuror or you are foder for CODE. And you can thank CCP for that one. Their horrible tiericide is what lead to that. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Trevor Dalech Absolute Obedience FREE GATES COALITION 250	Posted - 2016.10.19 07:51:22 - [104] - Quote pajedas wrote: I know you're a little slow but let me try to explain something to you. In all societies there are basically two groups of people. "The Haves and the Have Nots". Some of the "Haves" got to where they are by doing nothing. Like Paris Hilton for instance. However, the vast majority have worked to get there. For this discussion, we'll call them "Producers". Which brings us to the other group, the "Have Nots". Unfortunately this group tends to yield unsavory bi-products, like you. The guy that is unable or unwilling to work and acquire goods and services. It's much easier to just go out and take it from the closest and weakest Producer you can find. Don't get me wrong, I can empathize with you. We've all felt like giving into our base (basic) desire. To want or need something so much that our impulse overwhelms our principles. See: "The exception rather than the rule." In this game, some people "Have" combat skill, some people "Have Not". Some of these "Haves" have worked to get their combat skill, they scout, they find targets, they provide warp-ins, and they shoot and kill. For this discussion, we'll call them "content creators". Which brings us to the other group, the "Have Nots". Unfortunately this group tends to yield unsavory bi-products, like you. The guy that is unable or unwilling to work and find a fight. Don't get me wrong, I can empathize with you. We've all felt like giving into our base (basic) desire. To want or need something (ISK, kills, whatever...) for free without risk, and to hurl insults into the aether when our risk-assessment turns out to be incorrect. Now, just as in real life, we have the "Haves" oppressing the "Have nots". In real life this is unjust, this however is a PvP-focussed computer game based on skill and knowledge of game mechanics. Shooting "Have Nots" in the face is the right thing to do.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2016.10.19 08:15:19 - [105] - Quote Trevor Dalech wrote: For this discussion, we'll call them "content creators". How about we actually call them what they are. "Freeloaders". Stealing the produce created by the actual "Content Creators" so they can get by with little risk but huge rewards. While the actual "Content Creators" are taking all the risks but getting small rewards.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2016.10.19 08:22:52 - [106] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Their horrible tiericide is what lead to that. Yep its in the Top 3 stupid ideas from CCP. 1. Greed is Good and all that mess 2. tiericide (making cheap ships more powerful so that smaller characters can join in combat, leading to the slaughter of Hi-sec) 3. Moving Ice into anomalies so that casual players turn up and have no ice to mine. Just look at Eve-Offline peak before the release and a drop afterwards. Retribution, Odyssey and the Rubicons lack of POS update. Those 3 were nails in CCP. Now we have hi-sec minerals double what they were at the games peak, PLEX at over 1 billion and still no hope for hi-sec Industrialists.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5381	Posted - 2016.10.19 08:24:16 - [107] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Trevor Dalech wrote: For this discussion, we'll call them "content creators". How about we actually call them what they are. "Freeloaders". Stealing the produce created by the actual "Content Creators" so they can get by with little risk but huge rewards. While the actual "Content Creators" are taking all the risks but getting small rewards. Good lord but you are salty. Look maybe you should go and watch Lion King again. Pay particular attention where Mufasa tells Simba about the circle of life. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5381	Posted - 2016.10.19 08:25:50 - [108] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Their horrible tiericide is what lead to that. Yep its in the Top 3 stupid ideas from CCP. 1. Greed is Good and all that mess 2. tiericide (making cheap ships more powerful so that smaller characters can join in combat, leading to the slaughter of Hi-sec) 3. Moving Ice into anomalies so that casual players turn up and have no ice to mine. Just look at Eve-Offline peak before the release and a drop afterwards. Retribution, Odyssey and the Rubicons lack of POS update. Those 3 were nails in CCP. Now we have hi-sec minerals double what they were at the games peak, PLEX at over 1 billion and still no hope for hi-sec Industrialists. I was also referring to the benighted mess that was barge/exhumer "rebalance" not you ether use a procuror or skiff. Anything else and you get ganked. Oh and no, growth in players online pretty much leveled of in 2010, not 2012. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2016.10.19 08:40:14 - [109] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Their horrible tiericide is what lead to that. Yep its in the Top 3 stupid ideas from CCP. 1. Greed is Good and all that mess 2. tiericide (making cheap ships more powerful so that smaller characters can join in combat, leading to the slaughter of Hi-sec) 3. Moving Ice into anomalies so that casual players turn up and have no ice to mine. Just look at Eve-Offline peak before the release and a drop afterwards. Retribution, Odyssey and the Rubicons lack of POS update. Those 3 were nails in CCP. Now we have hi-sec minerals double what they were at the games peak, PLEX at over 1 billion and still no hope for hi-sec Industrialists. I was also referring to the benighted mess that was barge/exhumer "rebalance" not you ether use a procuror or skiff. Anything else and you get ganked. Oh and no, growth in players online pretty much leveled of in 2010, not 2012. No player growth died in 2010, it was called Incarna. But it spiked heavily prior to the release of retribution, then fell a bit, then rose slightly prior to the release of Odyssey then in 2013 they released Rubicon, which created the making of the POSes: I am a small portion of the community, 153 page threadnaught. As to my use of a skiff/procurer this is not about me, this is about the masses of people who left. Which did include me until recently.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5382	Posted - 2016.10.19 08:46:34 - [110] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: No player growth died in 2010, it was called Incarna. But it spiked heavily prior to the release of retribution, then fell a bit, then rose slightly prior to the release of Odyssey then in 2013 they released Rubicon, which created the making of the POSes: I am a small portion of the community, 153 page threadnaught. As to my use of a skiff/procurer this is not about me, this is about the masses of people who left. Which did include me until recently. That is some awesome (Bravo Sierra) ex post story telling. But color me unimpressed. Look, HS PVP has been routinely ganked and look here you guys are still bitching about it as people become better organized and more specialized. You'd think you'd learn, but nope. There you go right on down the path to perdition. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2016.10.19 08:49:51 - [111] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: No player growth died in 2010, it was called Incarna. But it spiked heavily prior to the release of retribution, then fell a bit, then rose slightly prior to the release of Odyssey then in 2013 they released Rubicon, which created the making of the POSes: I am a small portion of the community, 153 page threadnaught. As to my use of a skiff/procurer this is not about me, this is about the masses of people who left. Which did include me until recently. That is some awesome (Bravo Sierra) ex post story telling. But color me unimpressed. Look, HS PVP has been routinely ganked and look here you guys are still bitching about it as people become better organized and more specialized. You'd think you'd learn, but nope. There you go right on down the path to perdition. Yes HS pvp has been ganked so that now you can use cheaper ships and still suffer bugger all consequences for ganking. So horrible.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5382	Posted - 2016.10.19 08:57:37 - [112] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: No player growth died in 2010, it was called Incarna. But it spiked heavily prior to the release of retribution, then fell a bit, then rose slightly prior to the release of Odyssey then in 2013 they released Rubicon, which created the making of the POSes: I am a small portion of the community, 153 page threadnaught. As to my use of a skiff/procurer this is not about me, this is about the masses of people who left. Which did include me until recently. That is some awesome (Bravo Sierra) ex post story telling. But color me unimpressed. Look, HS PVP has been routinely ganked and look here you guys are still bitching about it as people become better organized and more specialized. You'd think you'd learn, but nope. There you go right on down the path to perdition. Yes HS pvp has been ganked so that now you can use cheaper ships and still suffer bugger all consequences for ganking. So horrible. Ganking used to be easier in that you'd get insruance payouts. Maybe you should learn your lesson and STFU about ganking and stop whining so much. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2016.10.19 09:11:21 - [113] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: No player growth died in 2010, it was called Incarna. But it spiked heavily prior to the release of retribution, then fell a bit, then rose slightly prior to the release of Odyssey then in 2013 they released Rubicon, which created the making of the POSes: I am a small portion of the community, 153 page threadnaught. As to my use of a skiff/procurer this is not about me, this is about the masses of people who left. Which did include me until recently. That is some awesome (Bravo Sierra) ex post story telling. But color me unimpressed. Look, HS PVP has been routinely ganked and look here you guys are still bitching about it as people become better organized and more specialized. You'd think you'd learn, but nope. There you go right on down the path to perdition. Yes HS pvp has been ganked so that now you can use cheaper ships and still suffer bugger all consequences for ganking. So horrible. Ganking used to be easier in that you'd get insruance payouts. Maybe you should learn your lesson and STFU about ganking and stop whining so much. Edit: This is just how bad you guys are; I used to calculate how many long rang BS it would take to ganke my freighter and determine the cargo value appropriately with insurance. After doing that you could autopilot between Jita and where-ever. Now...you can't. Because of the whiny pussbuckets of HS now HS ganking groups might gank an empty JF just because. Seriously, if every whiny HS industrialist were to quit...I'd be goddamn happy. Because you add pretty much nothing to the game. Yes you did get an insurance payout now its gotten so easy to gank, you dont need it. So maybe you should stop acting like it is your right to be able to destroy hundreds of millions of isk ships for a few ratty destroyers, while you pretend that ganking has gotten so hard. Meanwhile most of the industrialists have left this game.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5382	Posted - 2016.10.19 09:27:33 - [114] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Yes you did get an insurance payout now its gotten so easy to gank, you dont need it. And who do you have to thank for that? Gankers? No, CCP. You are so blinkered you cannot see that CCP has been playing you for fools. If you had just shut up and stopped whining you could autopilot between Jita and whereever so long as you kept the cargo load low enough. Classic case of you got what you asked for dumbass. Quote: So maybe you should stop acting like it is your right to be able to destroy hundreds of millions of isk ships for a few ratty destroyers, while you pretend that ganking has gotten so hard. Meanwhile most of the industrialists have left this game. How about you exercise some prudence. Why are you sitting here stamping our foot like an impetuous and spoiled child who thinks the game resolves around them. Stop moving multiple billions of ISK in one fell swoop vs. several low risk trips, or get a JF and just jump past such problem systems? Seriously you sit here whining like a little ***** that there is nothing you can do when in fact the power has always been with you. It is well past time you grew up and started acting in a prudent and reasonable matter. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Nat Silverguard Aideron Robotics 502	Posted - 2016.10.19 09:33:41 - [115] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: im happy and gay dude, just quit, you are obviously not happy with the game anymore. move on... Just Add Water
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2842	Posted - 2016.10.19 09:34:08 - [116] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: So maybe you should stop acting like it is your right to be able to destroy hundreds of millions of isk ships for a few ratty destroyers, while you pretend that ganking has gotten so hard. Meanwhile most of the industrialists have left this game. Edit: Most of the HS industrialists did quit. You must be so happy that the game will now have free to play clones, just to try and stay alive so you can stay entitled. I don't know where you people get this stuff. Industry is going still going strong - probably too strong. New Eden's industrialists are still pumping out goods a similar rate to five years ago: http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68738/1/produced.vs.destroyed.png In fact, they still over-producing about 3-times what is destroyed in this game meaning we are all, as a whole, getting richer and richer (for which at some point their might be an economic reckoning). There is no shortage of industry, and there has been no decrease. In fact, if you normalize by the PCU counts, that means industrial activity is going up per capita. It is also still true that almost all (85%+) of that production in this game goes on in the largely highsec regions of The Forge, Lonetrek, The Citadel, Domain and Sinq Laison. This game is overflowing with highsec industrialists busily pumping out goods as fast as their invulnerable POSes will allow. They haven't gone anywhere. I suggest you lay off your narrative a bit and read CCP Quant's devblog or one of the monthly reports he has been doing recently. The 8 Golden Rules of Eve Why Do They Gank?
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2016.10.19 09:35:20 - [117] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Yes you did get an insurance payout now its gotten so easy to gank, you dont need it. And who do you have to thank for that? Gankers? No, CCP. You are so blinkered you cannot see that CCP has been playing you for fools. If you had just shut up and stopped whining you could autopilot between Jita and whereever so long as you kept the cargo load low enough. Classic case of you got what you asked for dumbass. Quote: So maybe you should stop acting like it is your right to be able to destroy hundreds of millions of isk ships for a few ratty destroyers, while you pretend that ganking has gotten so hard. Meanwhile most of the industrialists have left this game. How about you exercise some prudence. Why are you sitting here stamping our foot like an impetuous and spoiled child who thinks the game resolves around them. Stop moving multiple billions of ISK in one fell swoop vs. several low risk trips, or get a JF and just jump past such problem systems? Seriously you sit here whining like a little ***** that there is nothing you can do when in fact the power has always been with you. It is well past time you grew up and started acting in a prudent and reasonable matter. So we are down to the cant attack the argument, attack the person part. It does not change the fact that it takes 11 catalysts with T2 guns and Ammo costing 9.09 mill each to kill a freighter empty or not. The gankers are making billions from little to no effort because even a freighter carrying 200 mill in goods covers the cost when half of it blows up. No Industrialists did not get what they wanted, I can't remember any industrialist ever saying :Please buff the destroyers" that was the PvP types. You don't seem to get it there is no low risk trips. Newbie ships are being ganked for fun, hulks and macks for chuckles and freighters for massive profits. And yet you say i am acting like a child because I want risk vs reward reinstated because at the moment the Industrialists are taking all the risks and the gankers are getting all the rewards. While you just want the gravy train to continue.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18315	Posted - 2016.10.19 09:39:25 - [118] - Quote pajedas wrote: baltec1 wrote: Would have been nice for CCP to follow this line of thought rather than spend 5 years nerfing pvp into the ground in highsec to keep miners safe. I think the whole, "your tears fuel me" is lame and over used. That being said, you just filled a couple Orca's fuel tanks in HS. I know you're a little slow but let me try to explain something to you. In all societies there are basically two groups of people. "The Haves and the Have Nots". Some of the "Haves" got to where they are by doing nothing. Like Paris Hilton for instance. However, the vast majority have worked to get there. For this discussion, we'll call them "Producers". Which brings us to the other group, the "Have Nots". Unfortunately this group tends to yield unsavory bi-products, like you. The guy that is unable or unwilling to work and acquire goods and services. It's much easier to just go out and take it from the closest and weakest Producer you can find. Don't get me wrong, I can empathize with you. We've all felt like giving into our base (basic) desire. To want or need something so much that our impulse overwhelms our principles. See: "The exception rather than the rule." Your quote up there Gåæ tells me the whole story. You've established such a pattern of taking from the "Haves" that you've become entitled. You honestly believe that you deserve what others have worked to accumulate. You can call it whatever you want, it doesn't change the facts. OP does not mine and does not own an Orca. All references directed at baltec1 are limited to his, "in game" persona and are not meant hurt his little feelings. *Gankers are lazy. My quote is a statement on a fact. We have lost a huge amount of content in high sec including but not limited to ninja salvaging, mining barge piracy, targeted merc wardecs, everything around jetcan pvp. Its not tears to point out this is not good for EVE and its not tears to point out bad changes being made to the game. Buy I guess pointing out the irony of another post here is now considered "tears". You are quite right, people such as yourself have removed all meaning from that phrase.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2016.10.19 10:07:35 - [119] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: So maybe you should stop acting like it is your right to be able to destroy hundreds of millions of isk ships for a few ratty destroyers, while you pretend that ganking has gotten so hard. Meanwhile most of the industrialists have left this game. Edit: Most of the HS industrialists did quit. You must be so happy that the game will now have free to play clones, just to try and stay alive so you can stay entitled. I don't know where you people get this stuff. Industry is going still going strong - probably too strong. New Eden's industrialists are still pumping out goods a similar rate to five years ago: http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68738/1/produced.vs.destroyed.png In fact, they still over-producing about 3-times what is destroyed in this game meaning we are all, as a whole, getting richer and richer (for which at some point their might be an economic reckoning). There is no shortage of industry, and there has been no decrease. In fact, if you normalize by the PCU counts, that means industrial activity is going up per capita. It is also still true that almost all (85%+) of that production in this game goes on in the largely highsec regions of The Forge, Lonetrek, The Citadel, Domain and Sinq Laison. This game is overflowing with highsec industrialists busily pumping out goods as fast as their invulnerable POSes will allow. They haven't gone anywhere. I suggest you lay off your narrative a bit and read CCP Quant's devblog or one of the monthly reports he has been doing recently. Very nice so proved that older/richer characters are producing more per capital. Industrialists exist but a lot of these are Null alts producing in Hi-sec. Not Hi-sec miner/Industrialists. As can be seen here in newer figures, the supplies of Hi-Sec minerals are falling even after the expansion that increased mineral content. While Null/WH minerals are on the increase. And then if you look at the numbers of mining barges and exhumers, they are approximately the same as battleships. So a lot of hi-sec producers exist but not many miners which is what I am referring to as Industrialists. Those who mine and produce in Hi-Sec. Also if there were so many Hi-Sec miners, how could the value of Hi-Sec minerals double? And if there are so many casual miners left why is the cost of plex so high?
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2016.10.19 10:25:00 - [120] - Quote Must admit this thread has very much the same feel as threads years ago when the goons and other null alliances used to actually roster people onto the forums to argue against ideas they did not like. Because if ideas could not gain traction then CCP would be less likely to implement them. Look where they got the game.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2842	Posted - 2016.10.19 10:47:11 - [121] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Very nice so proved that older/richer characters are producing more per capital. Industrialists exist but a lot of these are Null alts producing in Hi-sec. Not Hi-sec miner/Industrialists. So an industrialist who produces in highsec is not a hisec industrialist? You sound like a highsec miner claiming "I am not a miner" after being exploded by an Agent of the New Order while mining. Mark Marconi wrote: As can be seen here in newer figures, the supplies of Hi-Sec minerals are falling even after the expansion that increased mineral content. While Null/WH minerals are on the increase. Sure, they fell 10% after Fozzie reworked how the minerals work to better serve nullsec production, so what? It is not as wide a gap as for production, but the majority of mining goes on largely in highsec regions still today. What does any of that have to do with highsec ganking, let alone the OP? Mark Marconi wrote: So a lot of hi-sec producers exist but not many miners which is what I am referring to as Industrialists. Those who mine and produce in Hi-Sec. Also if there were so many Hi-Sec miners, how could the value of Hi-Sec minerals double? And if there are so many casual miners left why is the cost of plex so high? So let me get this straight, they are not "true highsec producers" by your definition even though they mine and build stuff in highsec. The majority of both mining and industry still takes place in highsec barely budging from the historic numbers, yet you are still trying to claim that all the highsec industrialists have left? Mineral prices can increase for many reasons that have nothing to do with rates of mining production. These include increasing demand, increasing costs of PLEX, changes in the rules around input multiplexing, removal of "gun mining", as well as general inflation. I am not sure for what time period you think they have "doubled" but regardless I don't see how you can connect that to the number of miners that have left the game. As for PLEX prices, that is a symptom of more ISK in the game and several steps removed from mining and thus probably not directly related. But if anything, the number of hours of mining to earn a PLEX equivalent has gone up over time, which is something you would expect if there were more miners in the game competing at selling ore to buy PLEX. If they were leaving, you would expect the value ratio of ore:PLEX to go in the other direction as ore became more rare (and thus more valuable) and the departing miners consumed less PLEX from the market (thus reducing the value of PLEX). The 8 Golden Rules of Eve Why Do They Gank?
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2016.10.19 10:54:06 - [122] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Very nice so proved that older/richer characters are producing more per capital. Industrialists exist but a lot of these are Null alts producing in Hi-sec. Not Hi-sec miner/Industrialists. So an industrialist who produces in highsec is not a hisec industrialist? You sound like a highsec miner claiming "I am not a miner" after being exploded by an Agent of the New Order while mining. Mark Marconi wrote: As can be seen here in newer figures, the supplies of Hi-Sec minerals are falling even after the expansion that increased mineral content. While Null/WH minerals are on the increase. Sure, they fell 10% after Fozzie reworked how the minerals work to better serve nullsec production, so what? It is not as wide a gap as for production, but the majority of mining goes on largely in highsec regions still today. What does any of that have to do with highsec ganking, let alone the OP? Mark Marconi wrote: So a lot of hi-sec producers exist but not many miners which is what I am referring to as Industrialists. Those who mine and produce in Hi-Sec. Also if there were so many Hi-Sec miners, how could the value of Hi-Sec minerals double? And if there are so many casual miners left why is the cost of plex so high? So let me get this straight, they are not "true highsec producers" by your definition even though they mine and build stuff in highsec. The majority of both mining and industry still takes place in highsec barely budging from the historic numbers, yet you are still trying to claim that all the highsec industrialists have left? Mineral prices can increase for many reasons that have nothing to do with rates of mining production. The include increasing demand, increasing costs of PLEX, changes in the rules around input multiplexing, removal of "gun mining", as well as general inflation. I am not sure for what time period you think they have "doubled" but regardless I don't see how you can connect that to the number of miners that have left the game. As for PLEX prices, that is a symptom of more ISK in the game and several steps removed from mining and thus probably not directly related. But if anything, the number of hours of mining to earn a PLEX equivalent has gone up over time, which is something you would expect if there were more miners in the game competing at selling ore to buy PLEX. If they were leaving, you would expect the value ratio of ore:PLEX to go in the other direction as ore became more rare (and thus more valuable) and the departing miners consumed less PLEX from the market (thus reducing the value of PLEX). Yes it must all just be a coincidence that user numbers fall everytime Hi-sec miners get screwed. I would say industrialist but you confuse them with anyone who ever sets foot in Hi-sec.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2842	Posted - 2016.10.19 10:59:49 - [123] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Yes it must all just be a coincidence that user numbers fall everytime Hi-sec miners get screwed. I would say industrialist but you confuse them with anyone who ever sets foot in Hi-sec. Highsec miners are the safest they have ever been. By simply choosing to fly a tanked Skiff they can effectively make themselves immune to any unwanted player interaction and grind away without a worry in the world. Other game changes have and may continue to impact on their profitability however. The latest boost changes might be the biggest hit yet to highsec mining. CCP is making these changes to make the game better as a whole though, and that means sometimes playstyles take a hit or are eliminated completely. We've seen it before and we'll see it again. That's life in the sandbox. Well I think this thread has run its course. The 8 Golden Rules of Eve Why Do They Gank?
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2016.10.19 11:07:20 - [124] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Well I think this thread has run its course. Well at least we agree on something.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18315	Posted - 2016.10.19 11:58:58 - [125] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Yes it must all just be a coincidence that user numbers fall everytime Hi-sec miners get screwed. I would say industrialist but you confuse them with anyone who ever sets foot in Hi-sec. Highsec numbers have fallen as the pvp has been removed (aka as safety has gone up).
PsiMin Cylon Advance Care Factor 76	Posted - 2016.10.19 12:14:54 - [126] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: Just curious if a player doing nothing but continually harassing players in a system all day long would be considered griefing by CCP? It was a peaceful system until this guy showed up . First came his 10 toon ice mining fleet. Then came his griefer. He bumps and bumps and bumps. every spawn - every single day. He never misses one. The obvious answer is just leave the system, but that feels like such a cop out. Ideas of how to deal with this are appreciated. Bumpers are the scum of the earth as it is just to cause harassment and annoyance, When I used to mine in high sec its annoying as sustained bumping in a system is still classed as harassment and can be logged, however CCP tend not to do much about it. One way of stopping it happening is Miners to orbit the roid at around 7k also get them to use MTU's, save the locations to your Orca, once full orca warps to them and scoops the ore Orca has a Tractor beam - You cannot stop the orca being bumped due to it being slower than a sleeping Snail but you then just use your tractor beam, when full warp off and re-join. You do lose a slight performance around 10-15% doing it this way but it will not stop your miners. OTHER OPTION Spend some time with your chars and do the same to them to stop them mining
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 66	Posted - 2016.10.19 13:42:03 - [127] - Quote See, Mark really believes that is was the buff to the catalyst that resulted in the rise of organized ganking, when in fact it was much more the result of the buff to barges. Cultural changes trump relatively minor tweeks to the numbers. I remember the catalyst buff as a side note to the rise of the New Order that happened well after the New Order movement had begun. It was sort of a "oh, that's nice. Carry on." from my perspective. Shrug. I think ultimately folks like Mark Marconi want to nerf our ability to work together. I guess dozens of combat pilots shouldn't be able to bring down one imprudent guy with no backup, in his philosophy.
pajedas Special Activities Division 275	Posted - 2016.10.19 14:01:24 - [128] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Highsec numbers have fallen as the pvp has been removed (aka as safety has gone up). You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Wait...are you trying? Gÿà Mass Test Gÿà
pajedas Special Activities Division 275	Posted - 2016.10.19 14:05:09 - [129] - Quote Galaxy Duck wrote: I guess dozens of combat pilots shouldn't be able to bring down one imprudent guy with no backup, in his philosophy. Correct. Eve is set far into the future. Do not allow "any" weapons into so-called high security space. They have the technology and future bureaucrats would make it happen. You're just afraid you might actually have to "work" for a living. Gÿà Mass Test Gÿà
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2931	Posted - 2016.10.19 14:24:48 - [130] - Quote pajedas wrote: Do not allow "any" weapons into so-called high security space. I am sure the mission runners would be thrilled. Another quality idea brought to you by AG. You guys are amazing. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Cien Banchiere Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution 115	Posted - 2016.10.19 14:27:41 - [131] - Quote pajedas wrote: Galaxy Duck wrote: I guess dozens of combat pilots shouldn't be able to bring down one imprudent guy with no backup, in his philosophy. Correct. Eve is set far into the future. Do not allow "any" weapons into so-called high security space. They have the technology and future bureaucrats would make it happen. You're just afraid you might actually have to "work" for a living. It's space. nothing about space should, or is, safe. High sec included. It's high SECURITY, as in lots of armed guards, not a "safe space" as in you're a goddam snowflake and no one should touch you.
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 67	Posted - 2016.10.19 14:40:28 - [132] - Quote pajedas wrote: baltec1 wrote: Highsec numbers have fallen as the pvp has been removed (aka as safety has gone up). You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Wait...are you trying? Ummm... could you specify which part he's wrong about? Because both of those things in fact did occur and they in fact did correlate temporally. You can say correlation not causation blah blah, sure. But also notice that Baltec never mentions causation.
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 67	Posted - 2016.10.19 14:42:22 - [133] - Quote pajedas wrote: Galaxy Duck wrote: I guess dozens of combat pilots shouldn't be able to bring down one imprudent guy with no backup, in his philosophy. Correct. Eve is set far into the future. Do not allow "any" weapons into so-called high security space. They have the technology and future bureaucrats would make it happen. You're just afraid you might actually have to "work" for a living. Lol the day I ever have to grind anything is the day I uninstall the game. Grinding is for carebears, carebears are for food.
pajedas Special Activities Division 275	Posted - 2016.10.19 14:54:06 - [134] - Quote I almost forgot how dedicated the ganker trolls are. It's like trying to take welfare from people that have lived off of it for generations. They'll do anything to hold onto it. What are you so afraid of? Gÿà FACT: Gankers make up 87.5% of the Trolls in E.O. Forums Gÿà
SurrenderMonkey Space Llama Industries 2466	Posted - 2016.10.19 15:17:06 - [135] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Yes it must all just be a coincidence that user numbers fall everytime Hi-sec miners get screwed. I would say industrialist but you confuse them with anyone who ever sets foot in Hi-sec. [citation needed] I'm trying to think of the last time hi-sec miners were screwed on... anything. If you're up for some real cognitive dissonance, go ahead and check the publication date of the HTFU video and plot it against those numbers you're so hard for. If you want to correlate the decline with something, the closest match is the abandonment of that attitude in favor of trying to appeal to a broader audience. "Help, I'm bored with missions!" http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Zanar Skwigelf Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra 52	Posted - 2016.10.19 15:22:13 - [136] - Quote pajedas wrote: Galaxy Duck wrote: I guess dozens of combat pilots shouldn't be able to bring down one imprudent guy with no backup, in his philosophy. Correct. Eve is set far into the future. Do not allow "any" weapons into so-called high security space. They have the technology and future bureaucrats would make it happen. You're just afraid you might actually have to "work" for a living. I'd be OK with no weapons in High Sec if high sec was reduced to the starter systems. otherwise what's the point?
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 71	Posted - 2016.10.19 15:28:35 - [137] - Quote pajedas wrote: I almost forgot how dedicated the ganker trolls are. It's like trying to take welfare from people that have lived off of it for generations. They'll do anything to hold onto it. What are you so afraid of? I guess if I was afraid of anything, it would be EVE becoming some lame game where I have to grind stuff. But that'll never happen, so meh. You wanna answer the question concerning Baltec's post now instead of dodging it?
Bing Bangboom DAMAG Safety Commission 559	Posted - 2016.10.19 15:41:33 - [138] - Quote PsiMin wrote: Bumpers are the scum of the earth as it is just to cause harassment and annoyance, When I used to mine in high sec its annoying as sustained bumping in a system is still classed as harassment and can be logged, however CCP tend not to do much about it. The reason CCP tends to not do much about it is because it is not harassment. It isn't now and wasn't in the past. If you sent in petitions and nothing happened, its because your petition was nothing more than an amusing couple minute read for some CCP employee. Bumping of miners has an economic and political motive. There is a definite reason its done and a definite reason its allowed. It has been subhumed somewhat by the rise of miner ganking but I anticipate a return to bumping personally after the November changes to boosting. Boosting range now becoming a thing and all. Highsec is worth fighting for. By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.-á www.minerbumping.com
pajedas Special Activities Division 275	Posted - 2016.10.19 15:48:25 - [139] - Quote I don't have to dodge anything. I've seen hundreds of lame ducks like you come and go over the years. Fact: CCP has ran the game down so far that they're having to give it away. I guess they listened to the wrong voices. Gÿà FACT: Gankers make up 87.5% of the Trolls in E.O. Forums Gÿà
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 45195	Posted - 2016.10.19 16:52:26 - [140] - Quote @OP: In addition to all the suggestions in the first 4 pages of the thread, have you tried talking to the guy yet? Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18315	Posted - 2016.10.19 17:00:13 - [141] - Quote pajedas wrote: baltec1 wrote: Highsec numbers have fallen as the pvp has been removed (aka as safety has gone up). You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Wait...are you trying? So we have higher numbers now than 5 years ago?
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 72	Posted - 2016.10.19 17:07:08 - [142] - Quote Oh, he's not gonna let you pin him down with your fancy "facts" and "evidence", Baltec. He knows what he knows and what he knows is static.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5387	Posted - 2016.10.19 17:08:07 - [143] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Yes you did get an insurance payout now its gotten so easy to gank, you dont need it. And who do you have to thank for that? Gankers? No, CCP. You are so blinkered you cannot see that CCP has been playing you for fools. If you had just shut up and stopped whining you could autopilot between Jita and whereever so long as you kept the cargo load low enough. Classic case of you got what you asked for dumbass. Quote: So maybe you should stop acting like it is your right to be able to destroy hundreds of millions of isk ships for a few ratty destroyers, while you pretend that ganking has gotten so hard. Meanwhile most of the industrialists have left this game. How about you exercise some prudence. Why are you sitting here stamping our foot like an impetuous and spoiled child who thinks the game resolves around them. Stop moving multiple billions of ISK in one fell swoop vs. several low risk trips, or get a JF and just jump past such problem systems? Seriously you sit here whining like a little ***** that there is nothing you can do when in fact the power has always been with you. It is well past time you grew up and started acting in a prudent and reasonable matter. So we are down to the cant attack the argument, attack the person part. It does not change the fact that it takes 11 catalysts with T2 guns and Ammo costing 9.09 mill each to kill a freighter empty or not. The gankers are making billions from little to no effort because even a freighter carrying 200 mill in goods covers the cost when half of it blows up. No Industrialists did not get what they wanted, I can't remember any industrialist ever saying :Please buff the destroyers" that was the PvP types. You don't seem to get it there is no low risk trips. Newbie ships are being ganked for fun, hulks and macks for chuckles and freighters for massive profits. And yet you say i am acting like a child because I want risk vs reward reinstated because at the moment the Industrialists are taking all the risks and the gankers are getting all the rewards. While you just want the gravy train to continue. There is plenty of argument in there and it applies to both RL and the game. If you are prudent you'll be fine, if you are imprudent you won't be fine...well unless you work on Wall Street in which case you'll get a bail out. That's it. CODE. Miniluv, and the rest impose consequences for being imprudent. That's it. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5387	Posted - 2016.10.19 17:39:09 - [144] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Very nice so proved that older/richer characters are producing more per capital. Industrialists exist but a lot of these are Null alts producing in Hi-sec. Not Hi-sec miner/Industrialists. How do you know industrialists are NS alts? Quote: As can be seen here in newer figures, the supplies of Hi-Sec minerals are falling even after the expansion that increased mineral content. While Null/WH minerals are on the increase. Actually looks like they declined then stabilized. And that change...isn't that when minerals in NS got a major re-work? Not seeing the ganking narrative here. Quote: And then if you look at the numbers of mining barges and exhumers, they are approximately the same as battleships. So? Not seeing the point here. Quote: So a lot of hi-sec producers exist but not many miners which is what I am referring to as Industrialists. Those who mine and produce in Hi-Sec. Also if there were so many Hi-Sec miners, how could the value of Hi-Sec minerals double? And if there are so many casual miners left why is the cost of plex so high? Miners are industrialists but industrialists are not miners. When I mine it is exactly the kind of casual thing you talk about. I myself do not produce in HS as it is cheaper to do so in LS or NS, and if you know what you are doing moving stuff in and out is not tough or risky. The cost of plex is related to a number of factors. For example, CCP has been using PLEX for more and more of their services. IIRC it was like $10 to transfer a character between accounts, now it costs a PLEX. Skill injectors also likely played a factor as well. As for the long term trend, that is probably due to the growth in ISK and also the fact that PLEX started out so damn cheap. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5387	Posted - 2016.10.19 17:42:14 - [145] - Quote PsiMin wrote: When I used to mine in high sec its annoying as sustained bumping in a system is still classed as harassment and can be logged, however CCP tend not to do much about it. No it is not harassment. The guy is trying to claim those resources and using a valid in game tactic. Either shoot the bumping ship, try to bump his ships, get to the resources before he does, or move. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Anne Dieu-le-veut Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People 299	Posted - 2016.10.19 17:50:47 - [146] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: pajedas wrote: Do not allow "any" weapons into so-called high security space. I am sure the mission runners would be thrilled. Another quality idea brought to you by AG. You guys are amazing. Possible Veers Alt? Same undeserved smugness despite being totally clueless
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5388	Posted - 2016.10.19 17:51:24 - [147] - Quote pajedas wrote: Galaxy Duck wrote: I guess dozens of combat pilots shouldn't be able to bring down one imprudent guy with no backup, in his philosophy. Correct. Eve is set far into the future. Do not allow "any" weapons into so-called high security space. They have the technology and future bureaucrats would make it happen. You're just afraid you might actually have to "work" for a living. No. HS is not supposed to be safe space. HS is "safer" space, and you are supposed to take some precautions. The first rule of EVE has always been, do not undock in anything you cannot afford to lose, and that goes for haulers too. Your imagination of what the future would be like IRL is irrelevant because in part this is a game balance issue. For example, in the future with advanced technology couldn't I set up a condition so that if my drones take say 35% shield damage they automatically return to the drone bay, and that after 10 seconds they are launched again? Why don't my crew start firing the guns when reloaded. How come I can't issue a "weapons free" command? I supposedly have a crew but not a damn one of them can think for themselves? And you keep implying that ganking is lazy, but they set up comms, they have scouts, they have cargo scanners, somebody is probably plugging it into evepraisal and checking the value. Then there is the bumping ships, the logistics of getting ships and ammo into staging systems. Then there is all the work of reimbursing people for ships, or assembling the ships and handing them out. But you do not take even the slightest of precautions and they are the lazy ones? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Anne Dieu-le-veut Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People 299	Posted - 2016.10.19 17:54:04 - [148] - Quote pajedas wrote: I don't have to dodge anything. I've seen hundreds of lame ducks like you come and go over the years. Fact: CCP has ran the game down so far that they're having to give it away. I guess they listened to the wrong voices. Yes, they're listening to voices of people like you
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5388	Posted - 2016.10.19 17:55:29 - [149] - Quote pajedas wrote: I don't have to dodge anything. I've seen hundreds of lame ducks like you come and go over the years. Fact: CCP has ran the game down so far that they're having to give it away. I guess they listened to the wrong voices. Except ganking has gotten harder not easier. So much for your narrative. So in way you are right, they listened to the wrong voices...and tried to make HS have a broader appeal and looking at the numbers it has failed miserably. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
pajedas Special Activities Division 275	Posted - 2016.10.19 18:05:46 - [150] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Except ganking has gotten harder not easier. So much for your narrative. So in way you are right, they listened to the wrong voices...and tried to make HS have a broader appeal and looking at the numbers it has failed miserably. Your childlike interpretation of the facts is almost cute. For the record, you're saying that "ganking is hard"? Gÿà FACT: Gankers make up 87.5% of the Trolls in E.O. Forums Gÿà
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26991	Posted - 2016.10.19 18:11:33 - [151] - Quote Ye gods, there's some people posting in this thread that have absolutely no clue about the kind of game that they're playing. Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 351	Posted - 2016.10.19 18:19:45 - [152] - Quote pajedas wrote: Correct. Eve is set far into the future. Do not allow "any" weapons into so-called high security space. They have the technology and future bureaucrats would make it happen. You're just afraid you might actually have to "work" for a living. I seriously don't want to get involved in this clown-show, but I do feel the need to point out that EvE is supposed to be a DYSTOPIAN future. --Supposedly Evil Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony 850	Posted - 2016.10.19 18:25:29 - [153] - Quote Yesterday's dystopian future is today.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5388	Posted - 2016.10.19 18:36:03 - [154] - Quote pajedas wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Except ganking has gotten harder not easier. So much for your narrative. So in way you are right, they listened to the wrong voices...and tried to make HS have a broader appeal and looking at the numbers it has failed miserably. Your childlike interpretation of the facts is almost cute. For the record, you're saying that "ganking is hard"? I said it was harder. Now you have have to have a fleet with more players, a bumper, and so forth. Before it could be done where you'd pretty much take advantage of people using auto pilot. And the amusing thing is you insisting that imprudent play should be rewarded. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18316	Posted - 2016.10.19 18:38:28 - [155] - Quote pajedas wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Except ganking has gotten harder not easier. So much for your narrative. So in way you are right, they listened to the wrong voices...and tried to make HS have a broader appeal and looking at the numbers it has failed miserably. Your childlike interpretation of the facts is almost cute. For the record, you're saying that "ganking is hard"? Its a hell of a lot harder than it used to be.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5388	Posted - 2016.10.19 18:39:22 - [156] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: pajedas wrote: Correct. Eve is set far into the future. Do not allow "any" weapons into so-called high security space. They have the technology and future bureaucrats would make it happen. You're just afraid you might actually have to "work" for a living. I seriously don't want to get involved in this clown-show, but I do feel the need to point out that EvE is supposed to be a DYSTOPIAN future. --Supposedly Evil Gadget No, no! Don't you see with the wonderful technology and the wonderful bureaucrats of the far future will take care of people in HS like they are little children who need their hand held all the time. Via technology and benevolent leaders who are kind and caring people will remove all risk and concerns for everyone. Utopia will have finally been achieved. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
pajedas Special Activities Division 276	Posted - 2016.10.19 18:40:37 - [157] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Ye gods, there's some people posting in this thread that have absolutely no clue about the kind of game that they're playing. Truth (RMS 2011.05.31) Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: I seriously don't want to get involved in this clown-show, but I do feel the need to point out that EvE is supposed to be a DYSTOPIAN future. (removed link) You shouldn't call people clowns with the current state of affairs with them. I'm pretty sure they moved past* that stage of evolution. Gÿà FACT: Gankers make up 87.5% of the Trolls in E.O. Forums Gÿà
SurrenderMonkey Space Llama Industries 2469	Posted - 2016.10.19 18:40:40 - [158] - Quote pajedas wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Except ganking has gotten harder not easier. So much for your narrative. So in way you are right, they listened to the wrong voices...and tried to make HS have a broader appeal and looking at the numbers it has failed miserably. Your childlike interpretation of the facts is almost cute. For the record, you're saying that "ganking is hard"? I think we can all agree that, at a minimum, it's harder than exclusively engaging things that Concord was going to kill anyway. "Help, I'm bored with missions!" http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5388	Posted - 2016.10.19 18:41:14 - [159] - Quote baltec1 wrote: pajedas wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Except ganking has gotten harder not easier. So much for your narrative. So in way you are right, they listened to the wrong voices...and tried to make HS have a broader appeal and looking at the numbers it has failed miserably. Your childlike interpretation of the facts is almost cute. For the record, you're saying that "ganking is hard"? Its a hell of a lot harder than it used to be. Which is why ganking has become something alliances and groups are dedicated too. Yes freighter ganking has always been in game, but the groups like Miniluv and CODE. formed later. Why? Why did it take so long for such groups to form? Why has there been no Hulkaggedons in years? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Owen Levanth Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration 493	Posted - 2016.10.19 18:44:36 - [160] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: All good advice. Just hard to pick up and leave when you call a system home for two years. Fighting options in high security when he is an NPC corp are pretty limited. Sounds like this guy is a bot-aspirant. Have you thought of contacting CODE to deal with him? Or if that is too repulsive for you, try to gather 1-2 friends and spool up some ganking characters to beat the everloving **** out of him.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26992	Posted - 2016.10.19 18:52:07 - [161] - Quote pajedas wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Ye gods, there's some people posting in this thread that have absolutely no clue about the kind of game that they're playing. Truth (RMS 2011.05.31) What has my character's D.O.B got to do with it? My oldest character was sold a couple of weeks after creating this one I take it that you are aware of the existence of multiple accounts, alts and the practice of selling characters via the character bazaar. Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5389	Posted - 2016.10.19 18:53:40 - [162] - Quote pajedas wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Ye gods, there's some people posting in this thread that have absolutely no clue about the kind of game that they're playing. Truth (RMS 2011.05.31) He was talking about you. EVE stands for everyone vs. everyone. EVE is in a dystopian future. Try reading some of the fiction articles about what life is like in the game. Even in the democratic Gallente Empire there are some pretty grim stories....and the Caldari... And capsuleers are...well our immortality has made us out of touch with our fellow humans who are still planet side. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 355	Posted - 2016.10.19 19:00:35 - [163] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: And capsuleers are...well our immortality has made us out of touch with our fellow humans who are still planet side. Xenocracy is one of the Chronicles that best shows how out of touch Immortals are to their lessers. --Librarian Gadget Edit: This make PI fun again :) Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Penance Toralen Compass Fox 19	Posted - 2016.10.19 21:43:06 - [164] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Why has there been no Hulkaggedons in years? Because the Goons elected to change from a week long competition into a lame perpetual cash cow they wanted to milk. Pff a mere ten million bounty per exhumer - when the moon minerals for exhumer put a hundred million into the Goon coffers through moongoo sales. The first four hulkgeddons were a success without the Goons. Why bother organising a new Hulkaggedon when there are already existing structures in place such as Code? The familar has breed the comtempt so many seem to crave. Mining ganking has devolved to the point were it is longer distinguishable from rescuing the Damsel. Ganking is supposed to be chaos, but Code has imposed order and structure on it.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18319	Posted - 2016.10.19 22:19:23 - [165] - Quote Penance Toralen wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Why has there been no Hulkaggedons in years? Because the Goons elected to change from a week long competition into a lame perpetual cash cow they wanted to milk. Pff a mere ten million bounty per exhumer - when the moon minerals for exhumer put a hundred million into the Goon coffers through moongoo sales. The first four hulkgeddons were a success without the Goons. Why bother organising a new Hulkaggedon when there are already existing structures in place such as Code? The familar has breed the comtempt so many seem to crave. Mining ganking has devolved to the point were it is longer distinguishable from rescuing the Damsel. Ganking is supposed to be chaos, but Code has imposed order and structure on it. Hulkageddon was never run by goons, they just donated to the prize pool a few times. Code are a direct result of all of the nerfs CCP have made. They started out as a protest group to nerfs being made 4-5 years ago and are now the only people left ganking miners. Miner ganking used to be even more organized than today.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 28	Posted - 2016.10.19 22:30:04 - [166] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Penance Toralen wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Why has there been no Hulkaggedons in years? Because the Goons elected to change from a week long competition into a lame perpetual cash cow they wanted to milk. Pff a mere ten million bounty per exhumer - when the moon minerals for exhumer put a hundred million into the Goon coffers through moongoo sales. The first four hulkgeddons were a success without the Goons. Why bother organising a new Hulkaggedon when there are already existing structures in place such as Code? The familar has breed the comtempt so many seem to crave. Mining ganking has devolved to the point were it is longer distinguishable from rescuing the Damsel. Ganking is supposed to be chaos, but Code has imposed order and structure on it. Hulkageddon was never run by goons, they just donated to the prize pool a few times. Code are a direct result of all of the nerfs CCP have made. They started out as a protest group to nerfs being made 4-5 years ago and are now the only people left ganking miners. Miner ganking used to be even more organized than today. Any other history you would like to distort, so you continue on the narrative of how bad gankers have it now? Not that I am sure how. After all according to people on these forums the skies are full to the brim with miners just waiting to be ganked and as it only takes 1 or 2 cats to do it, it should be a gankers paradise.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18319	Posted - 2016.10.19 22:35:00 - [167] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Any other history you would like to distort, so you continue on the narrative of how bad gankers have it now? My corp made most of that history.
pajedas Special Activities Division 278	Posted - 2016.10.19 22:48:38 - [168] - Quote baltec1 wrote: My corp made most of that history. Gåæ Whatever. Here's a list of people that have, "made history". Donald Henry Gaskins Tsutomu Miyazaki Luis Garavito Ahmad Suradji Alexander Pichushkin Andrei Chikatilo Charles Edmund Cullen Patrick Wayne Kearney Dennis Raider John George Haigh Paul Knowles William Bonin Aileen Wuornos Tommy Lynn Sells Pedro Rodriguez Filho Congratulations. Gÿà FACT: Gankers make up 87.5% of the Trolls in E.O. Forums Gÿà
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18319	Posted - 2016.10.19 22:52:59 - [169] - Quote pajedas wrote: Gåæ Whatever. Mining interdictions, the gank catalyst, frieghter ganking tactics, burn jita. All came out of Bat Country.
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 75	Posted - 2016.10.19 22:54:10 - [170] - Quote Thanks Bat Country! :)
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 4481	Posted - 2016.10.19 22:56:43 - [171] - Quote I'd generally consider it a badge of honor if people considered me the EVE equivalent of a serial killer. I'd be all "Finally, the understand what I was going for all this time!"
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18319	Posted - 2016.10.19 23:11:15 - [172] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: I'd generally consider it a badge of honor if people considered me the EVE equivalent of a serial killer. I'd be all "Finally, the understand what I was going for all this time!" We were considered genocidal. It got to the point where on the caldari interdiction we set up an online form to fill in for people to vent at and just mailed that to every victim.
Penance Toralen Compass Fox 19	Posted - 2016.10.20 01:42:06 - [173] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Penance Toralen wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Why has there been no Hulkaggedons in years? Because the Goons elected to change from a week long competition into a lame perpetual cash cow they wanted to milk. Pff a mere ten million bounty per exhumer - when the moon minerals for exhumer put a hundred million into the Goon coffers through moongoo sales. The first four hulkgeddons were a success without the Goons. Why bother organising a new Hulkaggedon when there are already existing structures in place such as Code? The familar has breed the comtempt so many seem to crave. Mining ganking has devolved to the point were it is longer distinguishable from rescuing the Damsel. Ganking is supposed to be chaos, but Code has imposed order and structure on it. Hulkageddon was never run by goons, they just donated to the prize pool a few times. Code are a direct result of all of the nerfs CCP have made. They started out as a protest group to nerfs being made 4-5 years ago and are now the only people left ganking miners. Miner ganking used to be even more organized than today. Bollocks - Hulkageddon 5; http://www.machine9.net/?p=663 the Unholy Union. Goons ran the kill board. No, Code was a direct result of a player getting salty over the 10,000 CSM votes getting pissed up against a wall by Mittens. James315 tried multiple methods of being a serial pest, before the GMs gave a pass to bumping. Which is why this tripe exists; Quote: The New Order of Highsec continues to recognize The Mittani as the legitimate Chairman of the CSM. This determination remains the rule in all New Order territories.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5392	Posted - 2016.10.20 03:06:55 - [174] - Quote Penance Toralen wrote: baltec1 wrote: Penance Toralen wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Why has there been no Hulkaggedons in years? Because the Goons elected to change from a week long competition into a lame perpetual cash cow they wanted to milk. Pff a mere ten million bounty per exhumer - when the moon minerals for exhumer put a hundred million into the Goon coffers through moongoo sales. The first four hulkgeddons were a success without the Goons. Why bother organising a new Hulkaggedon when there are already existing structures in place such as Code? The familar has breed the comtempt so many seem to crave. Mining ganking has devolved to the point were it is longer distinguishable from rescuing the Damsel. Ganking is supposed to be chaos, but Code has imposed order and structure on it. Hulkageddon was never run by goons, they just donated to the prize pool a few times. Code are a direct result of all of the nerfs CCP have made. They started out as a protest group to nerfs being made 4-5 years ago and are now the only people left ganking miners. Miner ganking used to be even more organized than today. Bollocks - Hulkageddon 5; http://www.machine9.net/?p=663 the Unholy Union. Goons ran the kill board. No, Code was a direct result of a player getting salty over the 10,000 CSM votes getting pissed up against a wall by Mittens. James315 tried multiple methods of being a serial pest, before the GMs gave a pass to bumping. Which is why this tripe exists; Quote: The New Order of Highsec continues to recognize The Mittani as the legitimate Chairman of the CSM. This determination remains the rule in all New Order territories. You know drinking deep of the kool-aid will not only mess up your ability to think, but will also give you diabetes. Might want to switch to water. Anyone else remember the days when it was BoB that were the assholes in game? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2016.10.20 04:26:53 - [175] - Quote BoB caused the creation of the CSM. So is that a good or a bad thing?
Vincent Pelletier Pelletier Imports and Exports 88	Posted - 2016.10.20 05:35:25 - [176] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Vimsy Vortis wrote: I'd generally consider it a badge of honor if people considered me the EVE equivalent of a serial killer. I'd be all "Finally, the understand what I was going for all this time!" We were considered genocidal. It got to the point where on the caldari interdiction we set up an online form to fill in for people to vent at and just mailed that to every victim. Not like you invented that or anything. Just as most things that was simply copied from others who did that before, albeit perhaps not on that scale, to then claim it as yours. Don't fall for your own propaganda and history rewriting.
Jagd Wilde The Scope Gallente Federation 18	Posted - 2016.10.20 06:04:42 - [177] - Quote baltec1 wrote: and are now the only people left ganking miners. That's not even close to true. https://zkillboard.com/ship/17478/
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2016.10.20 06:17:42 - [178] - Quote Jagd Wilde wrote: baltec1 wrote: and are now the only people left ganking miners. That's not even close to true. https://zkillboard.com/ship/17478/ That shows the extent of the imbalance better than words could. A single crappy destroyer in a lot of cases destroying a ship that is meant to be designed for the dangers of hi-sec. Even tanked they dont stand a chance.
Jagd Wilde The Scope Gallente Federation 18	Posted - 2016.10.20 06:31:31 - [179] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Jagd Wilde wrote: baltec1 wrote: and are now the only people left ganking miners. That's not even close to true. https://zkillboard.com/ship/17478/ That shows the extent of the imbalance better than words could. A single crappy destroyer in a lot of cases destroying a ship that is meant to be designed for the dangers of hi-sec. Even tanked they dont stand a chance. Please, All that zkill shows is that carebears will always choose to play as if they were entitled to some sort of safety, or a free pass. They will antitank a space ship in a space ship shooting game, then park it in space and wait to be killed. All while afk. I would say 100% of those dead miners died needlessly, completely their own fault, nothing to do with ship imbalance.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2016.10.20 06:39:37 - [180] - Quote Jagd Wilde wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Jagd Wilde wrote: baltec1 wrote: and are now the only people left ganking miners. That's not even close to true. https://zkillboard.com/ship/17478/ That shows the extent of the imbalance better than words could. A single crappy destroyer in a lot of cases destroying a ship that is meant to be designed for the dangers of hi-sec. Even tanked they dont stand a chance. Please, All that zkill shows is that carebears will always choose to play as if they were entitled to some sort of safety, or a free pass. They will antitank a space ship in a space ship shooting game, then park it in space and wait to be killed. All while afk. I would say 100% of those dead miners died needlessly, completely their own fault, nothing to do with ship imbalance. Maybe they don't know how to tank a ship. Its not like it is part of the miners chain of tutorials in game play. Maybe how to tank the hell out of a mining barge needs to be part of the NPE.
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2943	Posted - 2016.10.20 06:47:59 - [181] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Maybe they don't know how to tank a ship. Its not like it is part of the miners chain of tutorials in game play. Maybe how to tank the hell out of a mining barge needs to be part of the NPE. We are that part of the tutorial. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1932	Posted - 2016.10.20 06:50:46 - [182] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: So to sum it up your advice is don't be rich in hi-sec. So much for the rule of law. As to risk vs reward, I think I understand it better than you. The gankers risk is minuscule in the respect they can continuously do it with no real effects. No, if you want a quick summary: Don't be imprudent. If you put 8 billion in your freighter, you are being imprudent. Just noting: you love to repeat this but lossmails of empty freghters do not help you The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5393	Posted - 2016.10.20 06:55:37 - [183] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: So to sum it up your advice is don't be rich in hi-sec. So much for the rule of law. As to risk vs reward, I think I understand it better than you. The gankers risk is minuscule in the respect they can continuously do it with no real effects. No, if you want a quick summary: Don't be imprudent. If you put 8 billion in your freighter, you are being imprudent. Just noting: you love to repeat this but lossmails of empty freghters do not help you And how many loss mails are there for empty freighters. How many loss mails are there were several billion worth of cargo? And how many freighters are moving stuff and not getting ganked? If you want to autopilot your empty freighter you can, but there is a chance it will get ganked. Not much of one, IMO, but a non-zero probability. So autopiloting your 1.3 billion capital ship...yeah kind of imprudent too. Don't do it, unless losing 1.3 billion is no big deal. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jagd Wilde The Scope Gallente Federation 18	Posted - 2016.10.20 06:57:41 - [184] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Jagd Wilde wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Jagd Wilde wrote: baltec1 wrote: and are now the only people left ganking miners. That's not even close to true. https://zkillboard.com/ship/17478/ That shows the extent of the imbalance better than words could. A single crappy destroyer in a lot of cases destroying a ship that is meant to be designed for the dangers of hi-sec. Even tanked they dont stand a chance. Please, All that zkill shows is that carebears will always choose to play as if they were entitled to some sort of safety, or a free pass. They will antitank a space ship in a space ship shooting game, then park it in space and wait to be killed. All while afk. I would say 100% of those dead miners died needlessly, completely their own fault, nothing to do with ship imbalance. Maybe they don't know how to tank a ship. Its not like it is part of the miners chain of tutorials in game play. Maybe how to tank the hell out of a mining barge needs to be part of the NPE. Whatever happened to "EVE is hard" They can do what the rest if us did to learn to tank, research and joining player run corps (not in highsec) and learning from others. You carebears don't even try anymore Not everyone deserves EVE.
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2943	Posted - 2016.10.20 07:04:10 - [185] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Just noting: you love to repeat this but lossmails of empty freghters do not help you Recently in a rant of carebear A form corp B in thread C: "Ganking was never intended to be profitable, so we should buff freighters and mining barges once again so that ganking only happens if you have a serious grudge against that person and not for profit!" Simultaneously in another thread carebear D from corp E shed some different tears: "Gankers even target empty Freighters! EMPTY!! They don't even make profit!! Ganking should only be allowed for profit, if you gank just for tears that is harassment and they should all get banned!!" I am obviously joking. We even get that in the same thread. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2016.10.20 07:06:53 - [186] - Quote Jagd Wilde wrote: Whatever happened to "EVE is hard" They can do what the rest if us did to learn to tank, research and joining player run corps (not in highsec) and learning from others. You carebears don't even try anymore Not everyone deserves EVE. Yeah the whole EvE is hard thing died about the time subscriptions started making a dive to the floor. Yes it used to be a learning cliff but now CCP are actually trying to stay in business. Most people have moved on from PC games so now this is a niche market game on a niche market piece of equipment. So whats wrong with a how to tank the hell out of your ship tutorial? Its not like the game will die with it but if it is just more of the same well hey we are getting free to play. Keep it up and we can get pay to win.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5394	Posted - 2016.10.20 07:10:53 - [187] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Jagd Wilde wrote: baltec1 wrote: and are now the only people left ganking miners. That's not even close to true. https://zkillboard.com/ship/17478/ That shows the extent of the imbalance better than words could. A single crappy destroyer in a lot of cases destroying a ship that is meant to be designed for the dangers of hi-sec. Even tanked they dont stand a chance. For somebody who was talking about knowing something about statistics this statement of yours is very revealing. How many retrievers were out there mining in HS during the time covered by the first page of those kills (and after removing NS and LS kills)? That is if you copy and paste the first page of kills, remove the LS and NS kills we have retrievers killed in HS from 05:28 Oct 19 to 02:37 Oct 20. How many retrievers in that time frame were out mining and did not get ganked? After all if we are to get an idea of how bad the ganking problem is we need to know: Ganked Retrievers/Total Retrievers Mining. By my count during that time span 36 retrievers were ganked. If there were 72 retrievers out mining in total that day, then the rate of ganking is 0.5. But if there were 360 then the rate is 0.1. You are only looking at one part of the picture and yet you can confidently make such a statement? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jagd Wilde The Scope Gallente Federation 18	Posted - 2016.10.20 07:14:22 - [188] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Jagd Wilde wrote: Whatever happened to "EVE is hard" They can do what the rest if us did to learn to tank, research and joining player run corps (not in highsec) and learning from others. You carebears don't even try anymore Not everyone deserves EVE. Yeah the whole EvE is hard thing died about the time subscriptions started making a dive to the floor. Yes it used to be a learning cliff but now CCP are actually trying to stay in business. Most people have moved on from PC games so now this is a niche market game on a niche market piece of equipment. So whats wrong with a how to tank the hell out of your ship tutorial? Its not like the game will die with it but if it is just more of the same well hey we are getting free to play. Keep it up and we can get pay to win. Well hell friend, why stop with that tutorial? There's nothing wrong with tutorials, but if a carebear stops after doing only the mining tutorial, then he missed the tanking one from the combat tutorial. Know why it's in the combat tutorial? Because EVE is PVP, and if your first instinct in EVE is to do the mining tutorial then stop and be a miner, maybe EVE is the wrong game for you, and the tanking tutorial is a waste at that point.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2016.10.20 07:21:21 - [189] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Jagd Wilde wrote: baltec1 wrote: and are now the only people left ganking miners. That's not even close to true. https://zkillboard.com/ship/17478/ That shows the extent of the imbalance better than words could. A single crappy destroyer in a lot of cases destroying a ship that is meant to be designed for the dangers of hi-sec. Even tanked they dont stand a chance. For somebody who was talking about knowing something about statistics this statement of yours is very revealing. How many retrievers were out there mining in HS during the time covered by the first page of those kills (and after removing NS and LS kills)? That is if you copy and paste the first page of kills, remove the LS and NS kills we have retrievers killed in HS from 05:28 Oct 19 to 02:37 Oct 20. How many retrievers in that time frame were out mining and did not get ganked? After all if we are to get an idea of how bad the ganking problem is we need to know: Ganked Retrievers/Total Retrievers Mining. By my count during that time span 36 retrievers were ganked. If there were 72 retrievers out mining in total that day, then the rate of ganking is 0.5. But if there were 360 then the rate is 0.1. You are only looking at one part of the picture and yet you can confidently make such a statement? It is not the probability of a ship being ganked that I have a problem with. After all this EvE and no where should be completely safe. It is the crappy little cheap destroyers. They mean that the gankers risk little on the side of isk up for the gamble when they gank someone. It also means reduced risk on the other side of anti-gankers ganking them are going to get less because they are such crappy little ships. This also impacts on another side which is demand for minerals. Being able to use such crappy little ships means that only small numbers of minerals are destroyed and small numbers are needed to create a new destroyer. I do not want to see ganking ganked. Just those stupid destroyers. If you had to use the equivalent number of cruisers then that is more on par with risk vs reward. Also I do worry that either a lot of players of this game have never learned how to tank a ship or we just have a lot of complete morons.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5395	Posted - 2016.10.20 07:32:11 - [190] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: It is not the probability of a ship being ganked that I have a problem with. After all this EvE and no where should be completely safe. It is the crappy little cheap destroyers. They mean that the gankers risk little on the side of isk up for the gamble when they gank someone. It also means reduced risk on the other side of anti-gankers ganking them are going to get less because they are such crappy little ships. This also impacts on another side which is demand for minerals. Being able to use such crappy little ships means that only small numbers of minerals are destroyed and small numbers are needed to create a new destroyer. I do not want to see ganking ganked. Just those stupid destroyers. If you had to use the equivalent number of cruisers then that is more on par with risk vs reward. Also I do worry that either a lot of players of this game have never learned how to tank a ship or we just have a lot of complete morons. Seriously? If there are 1,000 retrievers out in the belts and 36 get ganked that strikes me as very different than 36 retrievers were out in the belts and 36 were ganked. The former indicates little to no problem, the latter suggest you might have a leg to stand on. Since you don't know the total number of retrievers in the belts...you kinda don't have a leg...not even a stump. Talking about risk for gankers is also really revealing. How can you talk about risk when the probability of ship loss is 100%? If you face a loss of 100% there is no risk, but certainty. It is with certainty that the ganker is going to lose 8 million ISK. For the miner the probability of loss is actually less than 100% if they are paying attention. If you see that guy land in the belt in a catalyst and you are not warping off...well you are doing it wrong. Even another ship warping in....I'd be a bit inclined to change position or even align out. After all he could be providing a warp in. Like I have been saying, play prudently and you'll be fine. CODE. aren't going after the prudent, but the imprudent. Oh, and BTW, with that kind of effort, why not look into moving to a NS rental alliance? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Eugene Kerner TunDraGon Project.Mayhem. 1646	Posted - 2016.10.20 07:42:11 - [191] - Quote Nero Jove wrote: Just curious if a player doing nothing but continually harassing players in a system all day long would be considered griefing by CCP? It was a peaceful system until this guy showed up . First came his 10 toon ice mining fleet. Then came his griefer. He bumps and bumps and bumps. every spawn - every single day. He never misses one. The obvious answer is just leave the system, but that feels like such a cop out. Ideas of how to deal with this are appreciated. Bump back for Hells sake. Hire Mercs. Wardec him yourself. Unbelievable how helpless high sec became in the last years. Better leave the game if you are not up to it. TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] " -á CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a di++k joke."-áRobin Williams - RIP
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2016.10.20 07:51:29 - [192] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: It is not the probability of a ship being ganked that I have a problem with. After all this EvE and no where should be completely safe. It is the crappy little cheap destroyers. They mean that the gankers risk little on the side of isk up for the gamble when they gank someone. It also means reduced risk on the other side of anti-gankers ganking them are going to get less because they are such crappy little ships. This also impacts on another side which is demand for minerals. Being able to use such crappy little ships means that only small numbers of minerals are destroyed and small numbers are needed to create a new destroyer. I do not want to see ganking ganked. Just those stupid destroyers. If you had to use the equivalent number of cruisers then that is more on par with risk vs reward. Also I do worry that either a lot of players of this game have never learned how to tank a ship or we just have a lot of complete morons. Seriously? If there are 1,000 retrievers out in the belts and 36 get ganked that strikes me as very different than 36 retrievers were out in the belts and 36 were ganked. The former indicates little to no problem, the latter suggest you might have a leg to stand on. Since you don't know the total number of retrievers in the belts...you kinda don't have a leg...not even a stump. Talking about risk for gankers is also really revealing. How can you talk about risk when the probability of ship loss is 100%? If you face a loss of 100% there is no risk, but certainty. It is with certainty that the ganker is going to lose 8 million ISK. For the miner the probability of loss is actually less than 100% if they are paying attention. If you see that guy land in the belt in a catalyst and you are not warping off...well you are doing it wrong. Even another ship warping in....I'd be a bit inclined to change position or even align out. After all he could be providing a warp in. Like I have been saying, play prudently and you'll be fine. CODE. aren't going after the prudent, but the imprudent. Oh, and BTW, with that kind of effort, why not look into moving to a NS rental alliance? Seriously. I am too lazy for Null these days. Been there, done that. Loved the excitement, loved the gate camps. Got completely slaughtered in roams but now I work to much and study to much for Null. I am just a casual player now. Those crappy destroyers get right up my nose though. That was one of the worst things CCP ever did.
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2946	Posted - 2016.10.20 08:09:48 - [193] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: You are only looking at one part of the picture and yet you can confidently make such a statement? Hey, it confirms his already as truth established view so a random list of somethingGäó is incredibly more convincing than a study performed by an entity who actually cares about the real results because their business depends on it. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18323	Posted - 2016.10.20 08:40:57 - [194] - Quote Penance Toralen wrote: Bollocks - Hulkageddon 5; http://www.machine9.net/?p=663 the Unholy Union. Goons ran the kill board. It was run by Helicity Boson, CFC didn't run it they just donated isk and that year a KB to use. CFC were just one of many who donated to the event. Penance Toralen wrote: No, Code was a direct result of a player getting salty over the 10,000 CSM votes getting pissed up against a wall by Mittens. James315 tried multiple methods of being a serial pest, before the GMs gave a pass to bumping. Which is why this tripe exists Its a protest group that formed towards the end of the mining interdictions to protest CCP nerfing their gameplay. They did not form because of the 10,000 vote event but they did use it as part of their argument against CCP. It has now morphed into what it is today.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18323	Posted - 2016.10.20 08:43:48 - [195] - Quote Jagd Wilde wrote: baltec1 wrote: and are now the only people left ganking miners. That's not even close to true. https://zkillboard.com/ship/17478/ You do know code alts operate outside of the code corp to avoid wardecs right? Ganking miners is a loss making operation, the only reason code are still doing it is because people make donations to them.
Jagd Wilde The Scope Gallente Federation 22	Posted - 2016.10.20 09:00:12 - [196] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Jagd Wilde wrote: baltec1 wrote: and are now the only people left ganking miners. That's not even close to true. https://zkillboard.com/ship/17478/ You do know code alts operate outside of the code corp to avoid wardecs right? Ganking miners is a loss making operation, the only reason code are still doing it is because people make donations to them. Friend you cant even show us that half he highsec gankers are CODE. Dont get me wrong, CODE is active, good at what they do, and have the best press, but i got a hisec gank alt. All my friends have highsec gank alts. None of us are CODE or CODE alts. We do it for the luls, screw profit. And i know of several other groups just in our immediate gank areas that are active, fulltime, and gank miners almost exclusively for fun. Saying CODE are the "only people left ganking" is just wrong. Defending it won't make it right as much as make you look like a highsec crybear. A condecending one at that. Thanks for playing tho.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18323	Posted - 2016.10.20 09:30:47 - [197] - Quote Jagd Wilde wrote: Friend you cant even show us that half he highsec gankers are CODE. I just told you why they are not in code. They even have a chat channel for organizing these our of corp agents. "The New Order transcends corporations, alliances, and coalitions. There's no list of references or skill requirement needed for a new Agent to join us. Everyone in EVE who takes any action to support our cause is an Agent of the New Order. Whether it's something big or small, once or many times, within or outside of official EVE channels, whether it's taken by someone I know well or by someone I'll never meet--each action intended to influence others for the advancement of the New Order is the action of an Agent." "Q. Why are you in an NPC corp? Are you afraid of being wardecced? On the contrary, I am Invincible and am afraid of nothing. I do not need corp members to fight my battles for me, nor do I feel the need to hide behind a corporate veil. I will fight anyone at any time. However, creating a corporation does cost over a million isk, which would cut into my profit margin." Thats taken from their own recruitment page and QA page. Jagd Wilde wrote: Dont get me wrong, CODE is active, good at what they do, and have the best press, but i got a hisec gank alt. All my friends have highsec gank alts. None of us are CODE or CODE alts. We do it for the luls, screw profit. And i know of several other groups just in our immediate gank areas that are active, fulltime, and gank miners almost exclusively for fun. Saying CODE are the "only people left ganking" is just wrong. Defending it won't make it right as much as make you look like a highsec crybear. A condecending one at that. Thanks for playing tho. There are naturally a few not with code but code are the only organisation left. There used to be several, mine being one of them that would target miners. CCP nerfed ganking so hard code is all thats left and nobody ganks miners for profit anymore which has lead to a whole host of other problems, the main one being that ganks are no longer targeted, they are random and it doesn't matter how miners fit their ships. The great irony is while ganking has been nerfed into the ground miners are less safe than before and mining itself has never had so little content.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2016.10.20 09:36:28 - [198] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: You are only looking at one part of the picture and yet you can confidently make such a statement? Hey, it confirms his already as truth established view so a random list of somethingGäó is incredibly more convincing than a study performed by an entity who actually cares about the real results because their business depends on it. While you consider it as complete fact as it justifies your existence. Even though you have no idea if it is valid or not.
Anne Dieu-le-veut Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People 302	Posted - 2016.10.20 12:07:20 - [199] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: You are only looking at one part of the picture and yet you can confidently make such a statement? Hey, it confirms his already as truth established view so a random list of somethingGäó is incredibly more convincing than a study performed by an entity who actually cares about the real results because their business depends on it. While you consider it as complete fact as it justifies your existence. Even though you have no idea if it is valid or not. What, exactly, is CCP's motivation to downplay the effects of ganking on player retention? Do you think they want to lose money?
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2948	Posted - 2016.10.20 12:12:54 - [200] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: You are only looking at one part of the picture and yet you can confidently make such a statement? Hey, it confirms his already as truth established view so a random list of somethingGäó is incredibly more convincing than a study performed by an entity who actually cares about the real results because their business depends on it. While you consider it as complete fact as it justifies your existence. Even though you have no idea if it is valid or not. Not all opinions are equal. My opinion is an informed opinion based on the study CCP provided. They invested time to actually look into the data and verify their initial assumption which was that ganking harms player retention. We can assume that CCP is a credible source and has a strong motivation of getting this right because this is actually a critical information for their business and they depend on it to make the right decisions. Your opinion is a gut feeling based on nothing at all. You did not look into the data, you did not invest any time at all to verify your view or can present a credible source who did this and came to the conclusions you present here. You are the proverbial esoteric freak who thinks his weird idea of how the world works which he got from his last LSD trip is on the same level as the physicist's model which they acquired by actually investing time looking into how things work and weed out false ideas. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2016.10.20 12:28:32 - [201] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: You are only looking at one part of the picture and yet you can confidently make such a statement? Hey, it confirms his already as truth established view so a random list of somethingGäó is incredibly more convincing than a study performed by an entity who actually cares about the real results because their business depends on it. While you consider it as complete fact as it justifies your existence. Even though you have no idea if it is valid or not. Not all opinions are equal. My opinion is an informed opinion based on the study CCP provided. They invested time to actually look into the data and verify their initial assumption which was that ganking harms player retention. We can assume that CCP is a credible source and has a strong motivation of getting this right because this is actually a critical information for their business and they depend on it to make the right decisions. Your opinion is a gut feeling based on nothing at all. You did not look into the data, you did not invest any time at all to verify your view or can present a credible source who did this and came to the conclusions you present here. You are the proverbial esoteric freak who thinks his weird idea of how the world works which he got from his last LSD trip is on the same level as the physicist's model which they acquired by actually investing time looking into how things work and weed out false ideas. Why can you assume that a company with no statistical back ground is a credible source? Let me guess you are one of these people who buy things because they are advertised as new and improved or the best around. You believe what they have said because it is what you want them to have said. Nothing more. My opinion is exactly that my opinion but I do not hold up unproven statistics as if they are the bible either. And physicist's model? God I really hope you are some pimply teenager still at school.
Owen Levanth Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration 493	Posted - 2016.10.20 12:33:45 - [202] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Jagd Wilde wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Jagd Wilde wrote: baltec1 wrote: and are now the only people left ganking miners. That's not even close to true. https://zkillboard.com/ship/17478/ That shows the extent of the imbalance better than words could. A single crappy destroyer in a lot of cases destroying a ship that is meant to be designed for the dangers of hi-sec. Even tanked they dont stand a chance. Please, All that zkill shows is that carebears will always choose to play as if they were entitled to some sort of safety, or a free pass. They will antitank a space ship in a space ship shooting game, then park it in space and wait to be killed. All while afk. I would say 100% of those dead miners died needlessly, completely their own fault, nothing to do with ship imbalance. Maybe they don't know how to tank a ship. Its not like it is part of the miners chain of tutorials in game play. Maybe how to tank the hell out of a mining barge needs to be part of the NPE. Well, the industrially oriented career agents stuff some combat missions into the equation, so new players should at least know they can be attacked while mining.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2016.10.20 12:45:57 - [203] - Quote Owen Levanth wrote: Well, the industrially oriented career agents stuff some combat missions into the equation, so new players should at least know they can be attacked while mining. I am actually looking forward to the NPE when it becomes free to play. I will run through it and see what it is like now.
pajedas Special Activities Division 319	Posted - 2016.10.20 13:01:45 - [204] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: I am obviously joking. We even get that in the same thread. 'There is no more neutrality in the world. You either have to be part of the solution, or you're going to be part of the problem.' T. Siedner, London NW2 When you named your character you announced to the world that you wanted to be part of the problem. I'm fine with that. Where I draw the line is when you try to force yourself on other people. I guarantee that in life you are more a mouse than a lion. And before you go crying to the moderators saying, "the big scary man was mean to me" consider this. Why are gankers ALWAYS the first to cry for moderation? I'll start a blog outside of here "free" of moderation and see how you fare... Gÿà FACT: Gankers make up 87.5% of the Trolls in E.O. Forums Gÿà
Session 1 Smokin' Aces. 5	Posted - 2016.10.20 13:15:55 - [205] - Quote As a new (returning, under 5m SP) player it is quite obvious that the high sec gank/grief mechanics are cancer to this game. Please note I have never experience ganking or greifing as ive always been in null or low sec myself (pvper). "Player freedom" doesn't mean you should have the ability to harass/gank players in the lawful areas of the game. And the NPC faction should project their power to stop wars in areas they control, in reality these wars would be bad for their stability and economy. In a game with respawns, "player freedom" should not mean "ability to do whatever you want with no real consequences". Gankers/griefers are bad for the health of games...just look at gaming history. ****when I say gankers/griefers I am talking about those preying upon people that want to play in safe(low reward) areas and have no desire for pvp.
pajedas Special Activities Division 319	Posted - 2016.10.20 13:29:46 - [206] - Quote Session 1 wrote: As a new (returning, under 5m SP) player it is quite obvious that the high sec gank/grief mechanics are cancer to this game. Please note I have never experience ganking or greifing as ive always been in null or low sec myself (pvper). "Player freedom" doesn't mean you should have the ability to harass/gank players in the lawful areas of the game. And the NPC faction should project their power to stop wars in areas they control, in reality these wars would be bad for their stability and economy. In a game with respawns, "player freedom" should not mean "ability to do whatever you want with no real consequences". Gankers/griefers are bad for the health of games...just look at gaming history. **when I say gankers/griefers I am talking about those preying upon people that want to play in safe(low reward) areas and have no desire for pvp. +1 G¡É Who needs moderation? G¡É**
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 76	Posted - 2016.10.20 13:51:17 - [207] - Quote Session 1 wrote: As a new (returning, under 5m SP) player it is quite obvious that the high sec gank/grief mechanics are cancer to this game. Please note I have never experience ganking or greifing as ive always been in null or low sec myself (pvper). "Player freedom" doesn't mean you should have the ability to harass/gank players in the lawful areas of the game. And the NPC faction should project their power to stop wars in areas they control, in reality these wars would be bad for their stability and economy. In a game with respawns, "player freedom" should not mean "ability to do whatever you want with no real consequences". Gankers/griefers are bad for the health of games...just look at gaming history. **when I say gankers/griefers I am talking about those preying upon people that want to play in safe(low reward) areas and have no desire for pvp. CCP Falcon wrote:** "I love EVE and the core of what the game stands for. That's why I've been dedicated to it and its community for over 11 years now. Risk vs Reward is a huge part of that. Honestly, if that changed, and the game started to soften out and cater to those who want to have their hand held all the way through their gameplay experience, I'd rather not be working on the project regardless of how many subscribers we had, than sell out the core principles that New Eden was built on. That's a sentiment that I hear a lot around the office, because we are all invested in what makes New Eden so compelling - The dark, gritty, hard reality beneath the pretty ships and nebulas. EVE is built on the core principle that you are never 100% safe, no matter where you go or what you do. When you interact with another player, you roll the dice on whether they're going to screw you over or not. That's a massive part of the social engineering behind the very basic underpinnings of the EVE Universe. Sorry, but your scaremongering counter argument makes no sense to me and carries no weight :)" Welcome to EVE! ;)
Jagd Wilde The Scope Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2016.10.20 14:01:00 - [208] - Quote Session 1 wrote: ****when I say gankers/griefers I am talking about those preying upon people that want to play in safe(low reward) areas and have no desire for pvp. Why would you play a PVP sandbox and not PVP? That is the type of mentality you leave outside EVE.
pajedas Special Activities Division 320	Posted - 2016.10.20 14:09:11 - [209] - Quote Galaxy Duck wrote: CCP Falcon wrote: Honestly, if that changed, and the game started to soften out and cater to those who want to have their hand held all the way through their gameplay experience, I'd rather not be working on the project regardless of how many subscribers we had, than sell out the core principles that New Eden was built on. Welcome to EVE! ;) At the end of the day, that's just one person's opinion. I respect CCP Falcon. Has anyone asked him what he would do if subscriber-ship was so low because of this type of thinking, that they resorted to giving the game away, what would he do? Would he still want to be "working on the project"? I mean, really...a paycheck is nice...no? G¡É Who needs moderation? G¡É
Jagd Wilde The Scope Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2016.10.20 14:12:03 - [210] - Quote pajedas wrote: I mean, really...a paycheck is nice...no? Typical greedy carebear mentality
Jagd Wilde The Scope Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2016.10.20 14:15:02 - [211] - Quote The deal is, if you dont like EVE, which has been going strong since 2003, why play? Is it just to try to impose some sort of misguided RL moral sympathies on others? Tyrants, leave EVE now.
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2950	Posted - 2016.10.20 14:23:19 - [212] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: Not all opinions are equal. My opinion is an informed opinion based on the study CCP provided. They invested time to actually look into the data and verify their initial assumption which was that ganking harms player retention. We can assume that CCP is a credible source and has a strong motivation of getting this right because this is actually a critical information for their business and they depend on it to make the right decisions. Your opinion is a gut feeling based on nothing at all. You did not look into the data, you did not invest any time at all to verify your view or can present a credible source who did this and came to the conclusions you present here. You are the proverbial esoteric freak who thinks his weird idea of how the world works which he got from his last LSD trip is on the same level as the physicist's model which they acquired by actually investing time looking into how things work and weed out false ideas. Why can you assume that a company with no statistical back ground is a credible source? Let me guess you are one of these people who buy things because they are advertised as new and improved or the best around. You believe what they have said because it is what you want them to have said. Nothing more. My opinion is exactly that my opinion but I do not hold up unproven statistics as if they are the bible either. And physicist's model? physicist's models are designed to test if a theory is false, not if it is true and it is not like there have not been numerous that were just plain out wrong. God I really hope you are some pimply teenager still at school. A model in physics is a whole body of theories. Theories and whole models are wrong all the time and the scientific method is used to find the ones which are wrong, by actually looking into things and test if the predictions they make survive reality. This was the point I tried to make. CCP like you had a theory about that people quit because of the mean gankers. Other than you they actually tested this assumption and the results are in the study they presented. They falsified the carebear theory. You are wrong, we where right. It's as simple as that. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
pajedas Special Activities Division 320	Posted - 2016.10.20 14:26:20 - [213] - Quote Jagd Wilde wrote: Why would you play a PVP sandbox and not PVP? That is the type of mentality you leave outside EVE. Uh, no. You miscategorized the term PvP, as do most children. For God's sake, let people play the way they want to play. I bet you're one of those people that think your music is SO great that you roll down your windows and blast it. G¡É Who needs moderation? G¡É
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2854	Posted - 2016.10.20 14:29:38 - [214] - Quote pajedas wrote: For God's sake, let people play the way they want to play. They can. They can play however they want according to the rules of the game. It just happens that Eve Online has rules that say you are never safe anywhere. The whole universe is a PvP zone. If you don't like that rule, you shouldn't play the game. Don't hate the players, hate the game. The 8 Golden Rules of Eve Why Do They Gank?
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2952	Posted - 2016.10.20 14:29:53 - [215] - Quote pajedas wrote: When you named your character you announced to the world that you wanted to be part of the problem. I'm fine with that. Where I draw the line is when you try to force yourself on other people. This is a competitive multiplayer sandbox with non-consensual PvP elements. Get use to it or play one of the other MMO where you don't have to deal with such game elements. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Jagd Wilde The Scope Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2016.10.20 14:30:12 - [216] - Quote pajedas wrote: Jagd Wilde wrote: Why would you play a PVP sandbox and not PVP? That is the type of mentality you leave outside EVE. Uh, no. You miscategorized the term PvP, as do most children. For God's sake, let people play the way they want to play. I bet you're one of those people that think your music is SO great that you roll down your windows and blast it. Uh no. PVP means PVP. EVE is not for the weak. Why should I let anyone play like they want if it contradicts the way I want to play, hence PVP. You should prolly look into other entertainment options. And really, try to seperate RL from game please musik boy
pajedas Special Activities Division 320	Posted - 2016.10.20 14:32:28 - [217] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: You are wrong, we where right. It's as simple as that. And they said that they would NEVER get away from the training time for skills. That was essential to what makes Eve so special. No cheating, no buying your way out of or around if. You see how that worked out, didn't you? Because their management ONLY has good ideas, right? Give me a break. They sold out a long time ago. Now Eve is FTP! Yeah, you really proved us wrong, whoever that is... G¡É Who needs moderation? G¡É
pajedas Special Activities Division 320	Posted - 2016.10.20 14:39:24 - [218] - Quote Jagd Wilde wrote: EVE is not for the weak. Weak is not having to pay to upgrade your clone. +1 for suicide ganking. Literally have no consequences for your actions makes you the weak one. G¡É Who needs moderation? G¡É
pajedas Special Activities Division 320	Posted - 2016.10.20 14:43:48 - [219] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: pajedas wrote: When you named your character you announced to the world that you wanted to be part of the problem. I'm fine with that. Where I draw the line is when you try to force yourself on other people. This is a competitive multiplayer sandbox with non-consensual PvP elements. Get use to it or play one of the other MMO where you don't have to deal with such game elements. You're doing great work for Eve Online by trying to drive people away from the game. Fact: I stared this game way before you and will be here long after you've gone. G¡É Who needs moderation? G¡É
Gealbhan Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 528	Posted - 2016.10.20 14:44:37 - [220] - Quote You need to get back in there, kick some ass and chew some gum! I'm all out of gum for ya.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 359	Posted - 2016.10.20 14:48:14 - [221] - Quote pajedas wrote: Fact: I stared this game way before you and will be here long after you've gone. Do you and IWY know each other IRL? Because I'm totally seeing one alt saying that he's played longer than another alt... --Gadget...also an alt (somedays). Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
pajedas Special Activities Division 320	Posted - 2016.10.20 14:51:05 - [222] - Quote I'll debate this outside of moderation. Trolls are too quick to anonymously report posts that hurt their fragile psyche. "Notifications off." G¡É Who needs moderation? G¡É
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2953	Posted - 2016.10.20 15:01:00 - [223] - Quote pajedas wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: pajedas wrote: When you named your character you announced to the world that you wanted to be part of the problem. I'm fine with that. Where I draw the line is when you try to force yourself on other people. This is a competitive multiplayer sandbox with non-consensual PvP elements. Get use to it or play one of the other MMO where you don't have to deal with such game elements. You're doing great work for Eve Online by trying to drive people away from the game. Fact: I stared this game way before you and will be here long after you've gone. You know, continuously repeating your assumption that ganking somehow harms the game will not magically make it true. Fact: if you play a game for over 10 years and still struggle with the basics that probably says something about you. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Anne Dieu-le-veut Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People 303	Posted - 2016.10.20 15:02:46 - [224] - Quote pajedas wrote: I'll debate this outside of moderation. Trolls are too quick to anonymously report posts that hurt their fragile psyche. "Notifications off." Oh boy! Another anti-ganking blog no one will read! Funny how this thread was about bumping and you guys turned it into an anti-ganking thread. What are you even talking about? I saw one post removed in this entire thread. I'm guessing it was you calling someone a bad name because your impotent rage took over?
Zanar Skwigelf Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra 53	Posted - 2016.10.20 15:43:46 - [225] - Quote pajedas wrote: For God's sake, let people play the way they want to play. Its amazing how often this gets spoken by people that have no intent on letting people play the way they want to play.
Jagd Wilde The Scope Gallente Federation 28	Posted - 2016.10.20 16:11:01 - [226] - Quote pajedas wrote: Fact: I stared this game way before you and will be here long after you've gone. So you have been playing since 2005 and that means what? Only that you have been playing wrong if you are this mad. I have not played nearly as long as you And I learned EVE is about PVP. I have been an EVE fan since I saw the first screenshots of Hillmar's. I came back to EVE with the intention of starting a gank alt and killing highsec miners. My alt loves killing miners, and will continue to do so on a yearly subbed account, long after high blood pressure (in game of course) leaves you as nothing more than dust. Why would you play a game 11 ish years if you hate so much about it? Everything you hate, I love about EVE. And it makes me laugh, which makes me think you and I will never agree. And that's OK not to agree, but you seen combative. Why not put that combativeness to work doing "real PVP"? How can anyone that cares about the game support risk free highsec? Nobody's gettin rich killing miners, it's necessary. And fun.
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 77	Posted - 2016.10.20 16:22:16 - [227] - Quote pajedas wrote: I'll debate this outside of moderation. Trolls are too quick to anonymously report posts that hurt their fragile psyche. "Notifications off." Lol the forum equivalent of stamping your feet and slamming the door. Something tells me we haven't tasted the last of those juicy Pajedas tears.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5398	Posted - 2016.10.20 17:22:15 - [228] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: [quote=Ima Wreckyou] Why can you assume that a company with no statistical back ground is a credible source? Let me guess you are one of these people who buy things because they are advertised as new and improved or the best around. You believe what they have said because it is what you want them to have said. Nothing more. My opinion is exactly that my opinion but I do not hold up unproven statistics as if they are the bible either. And physicist's model? physicist's models are designed to test if a theory is false, not if it is true and it is not like there have not been numerous that were just plain out wrong. God I really hope you are some pimply teenager still at school. I wouldn't be so sure about the lack of understanding about statistics. You were just bashing "us" about assumptions regarding the analysis and the 80,000 players being a random sample. Now you turn around and make an assumption too. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5398	Posted - 2016.10.20 17:28:00 - [229] - Quote pajedas wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: I am obviously joking. We even get that in the same thread. 'There is no more neutrality in the world. You either have to be part of the solution, or you're going to be part of the problem.' T. Siedner, London NW2 When you named your character you announced to the world that you wanted to be part of the problem. I'm fine with that. Where I draw the line is when you try to force yourself on other people. How can you have been playing this game since 2005 and not know that this game is predominantly about "forcing yourself on others"? Quote: I guarantee that in life you are more a mouse than a lion. And before you go crying to the moderators saying, "the big scary man was mean to me" consider this. Why are gankers ALWAYS the first to cry for moderation? There it is, now because one ganks in game one must be a coward IRL. And I think it is safe to conclude nobody here thinks of you as a big scary man. Quote: I'll start a blog outside of here "free" of moderation and see how you fare... In other words, you'll moderate it so those who have a view different than yours won't be allowed. Coward. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18325	Posted - 2016.10.20 17:29:02 - [230] - Quote pajedas wrote: Galaxy Duck wrote: CCP Falcon wrote: Honestly, if that changed, and the game started to soften out and cater to those who want to have their hand held all the way through their gameplay experience, I'd rather not be working on the project regardless of how many subscribers we had, than sell out the core principles that New Eden was built on. Welcome to EVE! ;) At the end of the day, that's just one person's opinion. I respect CCP Falcon. Has anyone asked him what he would do if subscriber-ship was so low because of this type of thinking, that they resorted to giving the game away, what would he do? Would he still want to be "working on the project"? I mean, really...a paycheck is nice...no? EVE was growing at its fastest rate back when there was a lot more PvP in highsec. EVE is seeing falling numbers now that it has the least amount of PvP in highsec. Facts don't back you up here.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18325	Posted - 2016.10.20 17:41:46 - [231] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: How can you have been playing this game since 2005 and not know that this game is predominantly about "forcing yourself on others"? The answer to that is simple. They haven't.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26997	Posted - 2016.10.20 17:48:19 - [232] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: How can you have been playing this game since 2005 and not know that this game is predominantly about "forcing yourself on others"? The answer to that is simple. They haven't. Oh well played, especially as he was making a thing about the age of posters characters. Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5398	Posted - 2016.10.20 18:28:24 - [233] - Quote TL;DR: If you are imprudent you are actually risk seeking, you are looking for risk. If you are a hauler and think the risk vs. reward is out of whack...change the ***** reward you nimrods. Session 1 wrote: As a new (returning, under 5m SP) player it is quite obvious that the high sec gank/grief mechanics are cancer to this game. Please note I have never experience ganking or greifing as ive always been in null or low sec myself (pvper). Really? How much ganking is there? As I have brought up before all you have is half the picture. You only see the ganked ships, you do not see the ships not ganked. This can lead to totally wrong conclusions and was pointed out about 150 years ago by Frederic Bastiat. Maybe you are right, but when CCP actually did some analysis it pointed to exactly the opposite conclusion. That it is a feature not a bug. Again, maybe this is wrong, but you are arguing with incomplete information. Quote: "Player freedom" doesn't mean you should have the ability to harass/gank players in the lawful areas of the game. And the NPC faction should project their power to stop wars in areas they control, in reality these wars would be bad for their stability and economy. CCP has stated time and again, that HS is just that "high security space" not "safe space" but "safer space". That is so long as I am willing to accept the consequences I can shoot you in HS. Now groups of players have gotten together and decided, "Yes we are willing to accept such consequences." And on top of it when it is freighter ganking they can also pick and choose which freighters to shoot and...they pick the imprudent players. Freighter gankers are like predators culling the weak and sickly from the herd. Gankers are culling the imprudent from the herd. To be honest, I wish a version of this could happen IRL. I wish during the financial crisis the imprudent were culled from the herd (allowed to fail) to send a clear message, "If you are imprudent and take on too much risk, and it goes bad you are SOL." The Bank of England did that back in 1866 with Overend, Gurney and Company. Up until that point the bank of England would bail out imprudent banks, so England went through periodic financial crises. Finally the Bank of England, in a nutshell said, "Nope, we will no longer bailout the imprudent." Overend Gurney got into trouble went to the Bank of England, the Bank of England said, "Sorry, we weren't joking." Overend and Gurney failed, there was a banking panic, a few other banks failed, the directors of Overend and Gurney were tried for fraud, however the judge found them guilty of grave error instead of fraud. But the key point is that the financial system in England was free of financial crises from that point forward until WWI. Rewarding imprudence is NEVER a good thing. All you get is more imprudence. Quote: In a game with respawns, "player freedom" should not mean "ability to do whatever you want with no real consequences". Gankers/griefers are bad for the health of games...just look at gaming history. *when I say gankers/griefers I am talking about those preying upon people that want to play in safe(low reward) areas and have no desire for pvp. There are* consequences. Unless ganking is going to be subsidized (e.g. James 315's little crusade) for ganking to be sustainable, it has to be the case that ganking turns a profit. But for ganking to turn a profit, then target selection is important. Just to break even you need to take into account the number of catalysts in your fleet and then double it. That is the minimum value you can gank. So if you have 40 dudes in catalysts and catalysts cost 9 million each, then we are talking the cargo value has to be at least 720 million ISK. In that case, over time you'll break even. Now if you want to also hand out some ISK to your pilots as an added incentive than the minimum value goes up from there. For example if you need 720 million for the ship replacement, and you want to give each pilot 4.5 million ISK on top of the ship replacement, you'll need a freighter with 1.44 billion ISK worth of cargo. What does all this mean? Haulers can have an influence on the level of risk they take. Let me repeat that... Haulers can have an influence on the level of risk they take. Haulers can have an influence on the level of risk they take. Haulers can have an influence on the level of risk they take. You exercise this influence by....not putting too much value in your freighter. It is not like diversifying an investment portfolio. Why do you diversify an investment portfolio? Well, if the risk of the various investments going down in value are not correlated....well then you reduce your risk of losing everything. Same thing with hauling. If you put 6 billion in your freighter you are a much more gank-worthy target than if you put 1 billion in your freighter. The gankers who gank for profit will be looking for much more profitable targets. In fact, that 40 man fleet will not want to gank you as they are much more likely to incur a loss. Yes, yes, this is not a guarantee against ganking...but then I never said it was. Some might do it just for the luls as has been indicated. But you can still reduce that risk too. Use a scout. Do not autopilot. Tank your freighter, especially when empty so they need more guys. This is why I find people who complain about freighter ganking contemptible. They are literally no better than than those on Wall Street who thought a bailout for their own imprudent and even fraudulent behavior was a good thing. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5398	Posted - 2016.10.20 18:29:34 - [234] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: baltec1 wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: How can you have been playing this game since 2005 and not know that this game is predominantly about "forcing yourself on others"? The answer to that is simple. They haven't. Oh well played, especially as he was making a thing about the age of posters characters. Figured....nice one baltec1. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Bellatrix Invicta New Order Logistics CODE. 696	Posted - 2016.10.20 19:40:32 - [235] - Quote pajedas wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: pajedas wrote: When you named your character you announced to the world that you wanted to be part of the problem. I'm fine with that. Where I draw the line is when you try to force yourself on other people. This is a competitive multiplayer sandbox with non-consensual PvP elements. Get use to it or play one of the other MMO where you don't have to deal with such game elements. You're doing great work for Eve Online by trying to drive people away from the game. Fact: I stared this game way before you and will be here long after you've gone. 1. We're not driving anyone away, plebe. 2. No, you didn't and no you won't be. If you think you've won, think again. The CODE always wins.
Session 1 Smokin' Aces. 5	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:12:12 - [236] - Quote Galaxy Duck wrote: Session 1 wrote: As a new (returning, under 5m SP) player it is quite obvious that the high sec gank/grief mechanics are cancer to this game. Please note I have never experience ganking or greifing as ive always been in null or low sec myself (pvper). "Player freedom" doesn't mean you should have the ability to harass/gank players in the lawful areas of the game. And the NPC faction should project their power to stop wars in areas they control, in reality these wars would be bad for their stability and economy. In a game with respawns, "player freedom" should not mean "ability to do whatever you want with no real consequences". Gankers/griefers are bad for the health of games...just look at gaming history. **when I say gankers/griefers I am talking about those preying upon people that want to play in safe(low reward) areas and have no desire for pvp. CCP Falcon wrote:** "I love EVE and the core of what the game stands for. That's why I've been dedicated to it and its community for over 11 years now. Risk vs Reward is a huge part of that. Honestly, if that changed, and the game started to soften out and cater to those who want to have their hand held all the way through their gameplay experience, I'd rather not be working on the project regardless of how many subscribers we had, than sell out the core principles that New Eden was built on. That's a sentiment that I hear a lot around the office, because we are all invested in what makes New Eden so compelling - The dark, gritty, hard reality beneath the pretty ships and nebulas. EVE is built on the core principle that you are never 100% safe, no matter where you go or what you do. When you interact with another player, you roll the dice on whether they're going to screw you over or not. That's a massive part of the social engineering behind the very basic underpinnings of the EVE Universe. Sorry, but your scaremongering counter argument makes no sense to me and carries no weight :)" Welcome to EVE! ;) There is no risk (FOR THE GANKER) in highsec grief/gank play. It goes directly against what this CCP guy just said... Funny that the ganker/griefers don't want there to be risk vs reward for them, just the "carebears". (wasting cheap ships is not real risk) Ironic.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26998	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:23:27 - [237] - Quote Session 1 wrote: There is no risk (FOR THE GANKER) in highsec grief/gank play. It goes directly against what this CCP guy just said... Funny that the ganker/griefers don't want there to be risk vs reward for them, just the "carebears". (wasting cheap ships is not real risk) Ironic. Wrong. There's a risk that nothing will drop, there's a risk that the gank will fail, there's a risk that other players will interfere; that's 3 straight off the bat. If you want to see increased risk or more consequences for gankers that go further than those provided by the game engine, then it is up to other players, which includes you, to provide more risk and consequences for them. Eve is not a game that holds your hand while you play, and if it does hold your hand it is to steal your finger and wrist jewellery. Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18335	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:28:12 - [238] - Quote Session 1 wrote: There is no risk (FOR THE GANKER) in highsec grief/gank play. It goes directly against what this CCP guy just said... Funny that the ganker/griefers don't want there to be risk vs reward for them, just the "carebears". (wasting cheap ships is not real risk) Ironic. List for us the risks you think gankers should have.
Session 1 Smokin' Aces. 5	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:28:54 - [239] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Session 1 wrote: There is no risk (FOR THE GANKER) in highsec grief/gank play. It goes directly against what this CCP guy just said... Funny that the ganker/griefers don't want there to be risk vs reward for them, just the "carebears". (wasting cheap ships is not real risk) Ironic. Wrong. There's a risk that nothing will drop, there's a risk that the gank will fail, there's a risk that other players will interfere; that's 3 examples of the risks that gankers face straight off the bat. If you want to see increased risk or more consequences for gankers that go further than those provided by the game engine, then it is up to other players, which includes you, to provide more risk and consequences for them. Eve is not a game that holds your hand while you play; on the off-chance that it does hold your hand, it is to steal your finger and wrist jewellery. I said risk VS reward. Anyone can name millions of trivial risks. Try again.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26998	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:31:38 - [240] - Quote Session 1 wrote: I said risk VS reward. Anyone can name millions of trivial risks. Try again. You opened with the following. Quote: There is no risk (FOR THE GANKER) in highsec grief/gank play. I addressed that part of your post. As for risk vs reward, if they fail or the loot fairy is greedy, they get no reward On a side note, the potential rewards for ganking are entirely in the hands of their prey. Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5407	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:49:07 - [241] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Session 1 wrote: There is no risk (FOR THE GANKER) in highsec grief/gank play. It goes directly against what this CCP guy just said... Funny that the ganker/griefers don't want there to be risk vs reward for them, just the "carebears". (wasting cheap ships is not real risk) Ironic. Wrong. There's a risk that nothing will drop, there's a risk that the gank will fail, there's a risk that other players will interfere; that's 3 examples of the risks that gankers face straight off the bat. If you want to see increased risk or more consequences for gankers that go further than those provided by the game engine, then it is up to other players, which includes you, to provide more risk and consequences for them. It's a shame that most of their prey are too damn lazy, or too scared of "the lack of consequence" that Concord provides, to do so Eve is not a game that holds your hand while you play; on the off-chance that it does hold your hand, it is to steal your finger and wrist jewellery. Yes it is amusing when they wail...there is no risk. But at the same time are unwilling to incur the consequences of CONCORD. That in and of itself reveals that their position is entirely bankrupt. And despite being shown that they can in deed change the risk vs. reward calculus of the gankers....instead of doing it, they simply repeat the claim: There is no risk, there is no risk. there is no risk, as if they were Dorothy and by repeating this while tapping their mouse on the desk will somehow solve the problem. Lazy, ignorant, and arrogant. A very potent combo that keeps freighter gankers in the loot. Truly ironic. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5407	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:49:55 - [242] - Quote Session 1 wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Session 1 wrote: There is no risk (FOR THE GANKER) in highsec grief/gank play. It goes directly against what this CCP guy just said... Funny that the ganker/griefers don't want there to be risk vs reward for them, just the "carebears". (wasting cheap ships is not real risk) Ironic. Wrong. There's a risk that nothing will drop, there's a risk that the gank will fail, there's a risk that other players will interfere; that's 3 examples of the risks that gankers face straight off the bat. If you want to see increased risk or more consequences for gankers that go further than those provided by the game engine, then it is up to other players, which includes you, to provide more risk and consequences for them. Eve is not a game that holds your hand while you play; on the off-chance that it does hold your hand, it is to steal your finger and wrist jewellery. I said risk VS reward. Anyone can name millions of trivial risks. Try again. Then change the reward. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 27001	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:53:07 - [243] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Then change the reward. Or the ease of collecting it. Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Jagd Wilde The Scope Gallente Federation 33	Posted - 2016.10.20 22:00:26 - [244] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Then change the reward. Or the ease of collecting it. everyone is operating under the assumption that ganking fat freighters is easy. the guys that actually do it say it's not and the guys that never have, have no argument
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5408	Posted - 2016.10.20 22:01:06 - [245] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Then change the reward. Or the amount of effort required to collect it. Yes either way works or even better, both. It is amazing the level of deliberate obtuseness. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 27001	Posted - 2016.10.20 22:05:18 - [246] - Quote Jagd Wilde wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Then change the reward. Or the ease of collecting it. everyone is operating under the assumption that ganking fat freighters is easy. the guys that actually do it say it's not and the guys that never have, have no argument Ease is relative. In my defence my use of the word ease was referring to the morons that insist on autopiloting through a choke point with eleventy billion isk in a shitfit freighter. Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.20 22:08:46 - [247] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: Not all opinions are equal. My opinion is an informed opinion based on the study CCP provided. They invested time to actually look into the data and verify their initial assumption which was that ganking harms player retention. We can assume that CCP is a credible source and has a strong motivation of getting this right because this is actually a critical information for their business and they depend on it to make the right decisions. Your opinion is a gut feeling based on nothing at all. You did not look into the data, you did not invest any time at all to verify your view or can present a credible source who did this and came to the conclusions you present here. You are the proverbial esoteric freak who thinks his weird idea of how the world works which he got from his last LSD trip is on the same level as the physicist's model which they acquired by actually investing time looking into how things work and weed out false ideas. Why can you assume that a company with no statistical back ground is a credible source? Let me guess you are one of these people who buy things because they are advertised as new and improved or the best around. You believe what they have said because it is what you want them to have said. Nothing more. My opinion is exactly that my opinion but I do not hold up unproven statistics as if they are the bible either. And physicist's model? physicist's models are designed to test if a theory is false, not if it is true and it is not like there have not been numerous that were just plain out wrong. God I really hope you are some pimply teenager still at school. A model in physics is a whole body of theories. Theories and whole models are wrong all the time and the scientific method is used to find the ones which are wrong, by actually looking into things and test if the predictions they make survive reality. This was the point I tried to make. CCP like you had a theory about that people quit because of the mean gankers. Other than you they actually tested this assumption and the results are in the study they presented. They falsified the carebear theory. You are wrong, we where right. It's as simple as that. No you assume they are right, without knowing the facts of how they got their conclusions. That is no more scientific than religion. You have faith that they CCP, the creator is all knowing and all powerful. And if the all knowing CCP had said ganking is bad, you would have disavowed your God.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18337	Posted - 2016.10.20 22:25:23 - [248] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: No you assume they are right, without knowing the facts of how they got their conclusions. That is no more scientific than religion. You have faith that they CCP, the creator is all knowing and all powerful. And if the all knowing CCP had said ganking is bad, you would have disavowed your God. Why would CCP say this after spending 5 years nerfing highsec PvP into the ground? They literally admitted that the last 5 years of changes were bad for the game. What can they possibly gain from that?
Jagd Wilde The Scope Gallente Federation 33	Posted - 2016.10.20 22:36:29 - [249] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Fair comment, I didn't mean to insinuate that ganking fat freighters is a doddle; I've seen first hand the amount of planning and coordination required to do it successfully. In my defence my use of the word ease was referring to the morons that insist on autopiloting through a choke point with eleventy billion isk in a shitfit freighter. I can't stop or protect or fix or those guys. why not have fun killing them? edit: in fact we should all be out there now on gank alts, burning highsec to the ground to prepare the soil for the new crop of Alpha clones.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.20 23:33:47 - [250] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: No you assume they are right, without knowing the facts of how they got their conclusions. That is no more scientific than religion. You have faith that they CCP, the creator is all knowing and all powerful. And if the all knowing CCP had said ganking is bad, you would have disavowed your God. Why would CCP say this after spending 5 years nerfing highsec PvP into the ground? They literally admitted that the last 5 years of changes were bad for the game. What can they possibly gain from that? The inability to do statistics correctly, does not change the fact that people release figures as facts. The statistics they released were done by a company with no prior history in statistics, with no published documentation. Subsequently you can either have faith that they did them right or skepticism at the fact the results cannot be verified. Faith is exactly that. The belief in something without proof. Also just the very basis they used for the general population, not the NPE for new players was flawed. To determine if ganking was harmful to subscriptions of older characters you would not go by peoples exit comments as to many of them would be non-responses. You would analyze kill mails, vs play styles. For example the amount of time spent mining, which could be achieved by indexing the amount of minerals added to an account by the system in the case of mining of the amount of time an account spent in any type of ship, if that was unavailable, then ammunition destroyed and NPCs killed by an account. There initial study into the NPE showed promise, it is just we cannot take the results as anything more than a belief as we cannot validate their figures and its not as if you can point to CCPs ability to get things right over the years.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.20 23:43:04 - [251] - Quote Jagd Wilde wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Fair comment, I didn't mean to insinuate that ganking fat freighters is a doddle; I've seen first hand the amount of planning and coordination required to do it successfully. In my defence my use of the word ease was referring to the morons that insist on autopiloting through a choke point with eleventy billion isk in a shitfit freighter. I can't stop or protect or fix or those guys. why not have fun killing them? edit: in fact we should all be out there now on gank alts, burning highsec to the ground to prepare the soil for the new crop of Alpha clones. No need the Alpha clones will do that well enough.
Drago Shouna Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 656	Posted - 2016.10.20 23:44:49 - [252] - Quote Dejavuncular.....auto correct is a bit hectic.. Here we go again. Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want." Welcome to EVE.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18339	Posted - 2016.10.21 00:06:27 - [253] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: The inability to do statistics correctly, does not change the fact that people release figures as facts. The statistics they released were done by a company with no prior history in statistics, with no published documentation. Subsequently you can either have faith that they did them right or skepticism at the fact the results cannot be verified. So CCP can't do maths now? Its not hard to work statistics out and it certainly isn't faith. These are hard facts, that you don't like them means little. Mark Marconi wrote: Faith is exactly that. The belief in something without proof. So where is yours? Mark Marconi wrote: You would analyze kill mails, vs play styles. For example the amount of time spent mining, which could be achieved by indexing the amount of minerals added to an account by the system in the case of mining of the amount of time an account spent in any type of ship, if that was unavailable, then ammunition destroyed and NPCs killed by an account. Chances of a freighter being ganked stands at less than 0.20% per 1.8 million jumps. Or one freighter loss per 7 years of continual use. Now, this is a statistic worked out using what you just posted. Mark Marconi wrote: There initial study into the NPE showed promise, it is just we cannot take the results as anything more than a belief as we cannot validate their figures and its not as if you can point to CCPs ability to get things right over the years. Edit: Add to this the well known bias shown by some CCP Devs and the figures are automatically in doubt. What bias? They have literally spend 5 years nerfing high sec PvP and then when the ran a study to prove ganking hurts sub retention they found the exact opposite is true. If there was going to be bias surly it would be in favour of the last 5 years of changes they made?
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 00:26:12 - [254] - Quote baltec1 wrote: So CCP can't do maths now? Its not hard to work statistics out and it certainly isn't faith. These are hard facts, that you don't like them means little. No they are NOT facts and no statistics is not easy. There are so many ways to make errors otherwise all statistics would be 100% right. So from that you would believe the statistics that say smoking does not cause cancer, while believing that they do cause cancer. Or the famous 1990s online study that showed that 99% of all people owned computers with internet connections. baltec1 wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Faith is exactly that. The belief in something without proof. So where is yours? I have only anecdotal evidence, however that is just as right as an unproven study. Which is why CCP need to get statistics Iceland in to help them. Then they could output things such as seasonally adjusted concurrent users, trend lines. The numbers of people who actually leave due to ganking using hard data. The NPE study was a foot in the right direction. Especially given that CCP has such a horrible record in understanding their users (Incarna, POS's ect..). If they actually based their decisions on statistics this game would be a lot better and yes if they actually did a proper study into why people leave using actual data then they would know what to fix, rather than using anecdotal evidence themselves. baltec1 wrote: What bias? They have literally spend 5 years nerfing high sec PvP and then when the ran a study to prove ganking hurts sub retention they found the exact opposite is true. If there was going to be bias surly it would be in favour of the last 5 years of changes they made? No you are assuming the bias of all CCP staff is in the same direction, where it is well known that some CCP staff believe that ganking is good and that people just need to HTFU. It then depends on the bias of the person who stated that less than 1% of people stated that they left due to ganking, the bias of that person and the actual figures themselves.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18339	Posted - 2016.10.21 00:43:05 - [255] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: No they are NOT facts and no statistics is not easy. There are so many ways to make errors otherwise all statistics would be 100% right. So from that you would believe the statistics that say smoking does not cause cancer, while believing that they do cause cancer. Or the famous 1990s online study that showed that 99% of all people owned computers with internet connections. I believe statistics that hold up to scrutiny. You have yet to tell us what CCP has to gain from telling us ganking does not negatively impact player retention after nerfing it constantly for 5 years. Mark Marconi wrote: I have only anecdotal evidence, however that is just as right as an unproven study. Which is why CCP need to get statistics Iceland in to help them. Then they could output things such as seasonally adjusted concurrent users, trend lines. The numbers of people who actually leave due to ganking using hard data. What exactly is wrong with the data they used? Anyone else would be using the exact same data that CCP used. Mark Marconi wrote: The NPE study was a foot in the right direction. Especially given that CCP has such a horrible record in understanding their users (Incarna, POS's ect..). If they actually based their decisions on statistics this game would be a lot better and yes if they actually did a proper study into why people leave using actual data then they would know what to fix, rather than using anecdotal evidence themselves. They did. They found that 85% of people that quit did so having done no PvP. That shows that removing PvP from highsec has not been a good thing because the PvE is not keeping people around. Mark Marconi wrote: No you are assuming the bias of all CCP staff is in the same direction, where it is well known that some CCP staff believe that ganking is good and that people just need to HTFU. It then depends on the bias of the person who stated that less than 1% of people stated that they left due to ganking, the bias of that person and the actual figures themselves. Why would CCP, in an official announcement on behalf of the company greenlight a staff member to say things on behalf of CCP that CCP do not agree with?
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 01:17:10 - [256] - Quote baltec1 wrote: I believe statistics that hold up to scrutiny. You have yet to tell us what CCP has to gain from telling us ganking does not negatively impact player retention after nerfing it constantly for 5 years. What scrutiny. Can you even point to anywhere that stated if they used a random sample or not. Someone who does a statistic incorrectly, does not necessarily have to have something to gain. That is why statistics that are trustworthy publish their methodology and even the raw data if it is not confidentialised. The NPE study was a very good start and it has produced a result they are working with. However that does not mean that the studies results are in any way correct. Also given that that particular study was only on the first 15 days of a characters life, you are using it to justify actions beyond those first 15 days. baltec1 wrote: What exactly is wrong with the data they used? Anyone else would be using the exact same data that CCP used. There is nothing wrong with the data they used but there is a huge question mark over HOW it was used. Raw data is exactly that, raw data does not make a statistic it is the basis to form statistics. baltec1 wrote: They did. They found that 85% of people that quit did so having done no PvP. That shows that removing PvP from highsec has not been a good thing because the PvE is not keeping people around. No they didn't you keep going outside of the field of the study, which even if it was correct your extrapolation outside of the field of study is not. They found that 85% of players who quit after having experienced no PvP within the FIRST 15 DAYS quit. What happens after those 15 days was not covered by the study except to say that their is a higher probability that people who did within the first 15 days are more inclined to stay longer. However they also failed to account for if the user was here via recruit a friend or a walk in, this would have massive alterations on the outcomes. baltec1 wrote: Why would CCP, in an official announcement on behalf of the company greenlight a staff member to say things on behalf of CCP that CCP do not agree with? I don't know if I would call the less than 1% an "official announcement" anymore than I would call a Devs going to twitter and posting an official announcement but either way if in the case of the first 15 days study, the results were false then CCP would be greenlighting something they believed to be accurate. Their belief that they did a good job does not make a statistic a statistic, which is why national statistics bureaus have to submit their work to the IMF, world bank etc.. for verification. As to the 1% thing as it was tacked in they may not have known or either way likely cared. The statement Less than 1% of people stated ganking for their reason for leaving is not even a statistic, it was not studied, it was not measured or analyzed, it is a completely useless statement. After all as I have said previously, how many do not answer? How many put things that might indicate ganking without saying ganking, piracy for example? You just do not know and given you do not know and cannot answer simple questions, you are working on faith. Merely a belief in what they said you wish to be true.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18339	Posted - 2016.10.21 01:45:42 - [257] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: What scrutiny. Can you even point to anywhere that stated if they used a random sample or not. Someone who does a statistic incorrectly, does not necessarily have to have something to gain. That is why statistics that are trustworthy publish their methodology and even the raw data if it is not confidentialised. The NPE study was a very good start and it has produced a result they are working with. However that does not mean that the studies results are in any way correct. So you are saying they hand picked those 80,000 trial accounts? Mark Marconi wrote: Also given that that particular study was only on the first 15 days of a characters life, you are using it to justify actions beyond those first 15 days. It also looked at all responses of people leaving the game. You still have not answered my question. What does CCP have to gain from pointing out PvP and more specifically ganking is good for player retention when they have spent the last 5 years nerfing it into the ground? Mark Marconi wrote: There is nothing wrong with the data they used but there is a huge question mark over HOW it was used. Raw data is exactly that, raw data does not make a statistic it is the basis to form statistics. Well, they found that out of 80,000 trial accounts 85% quit having done no PvP. They also found that less than 1% of people who quit say they left because they lost their ship to pvp. They also found that people take part in PvP play EVE for longer than people who do not. So, how are they using this data wrong? Mark Marconi wrote: No they didn't you keep going outside of the field of the study, which even if it was correct your extrapolation outside of the field of study is not. I add it to all of the other evidence we have. The fact that EVE is falling in subs after years of nerfs to PvP, the fact that the easy to get into PvP is now gone, The fact that EVE grew at it fastest rate when there was a lot more PvP options available and so on. Mark Marconi wrote: I don't know if I would call the less than 1% an "official announcement" anymore than I would call a Devs going to twitter and posting an official announcement but either way if in the case of the first 15 days study, the results were false then CCP would be greenlighting something they believed to be accurate. Their belief that they did a good job does not make a statistic a statistic, which is why national statistics bureaus have to submit their work to the IMF, world bank etc.. for verification. As to the 1% thing as it was tacked in they may not have known or either way likely cared. So now CCP need to get the world bank involved before you believe them? The only person dodging questions here is you. You still have yet to answer why CCP would want to do this when it flys in the face of the last 5 years of changes.
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2960	Posted - 2016.10.21 04:25:40 - [258] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: The inability to do statistics correctly, does not change the fact that people release figures as facts. The statistics they released were done by a company with no prior history in statistics, with no published documentation. Subsequently you can either have faith that they did them right or skepticism at the fact the results cannot be verified. What you do has nothing to do with scepticism but more with plain ignorance. Your assertion that they have "no prior history in statistics" is not only laughable it is just plain wrong. They have a whole department which analyses the in-game market and tries to predict the influence game changes will have. I am not sure why you are so obsessed with their statistic skills. It's not like this is some magic tool, it just basic math skills every software engineer learns. This has nothing to do with faith. We can trust CCP as they have every motivation to get this right. Their base assumption was the contrary of the result which is a strong indicator that there was no bias towards ganking. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
pajedas Special Activities Division 320	Posted - 2016.10.21 04:33:59 - [259] - Quote Worst trolls and moderation I've seen in a while. Why ccp loves their little shank happy catalyst pilots is beyond me. Hurry! Go cry to a moderator! Don't follow my sig down the rabbit hole (you might not make it out). G¡É Who needs moderation? G¡É
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 04:35:26 - [260] - Quote baltec1 wrote: So you are saying they hand picked those 80,000 trial accounts? I am saying we don't know how they got those 80,000 people. Subsequently we cannot determine the validity of the sample. baltec1 wrote: It also looked at all responses of people leaving the game. You still have not answered my question. What does CCP have to gain from pointing out PvP and more specifically ganking is good for player retention when they have spent the last 5 years nerfing it into the ground? No it didn't look at all the people leaving the game. The study only looked at those 80,000 people. The only thing that looked at all the players leaving was the comment about less than 1% and that was not part of the study. The validity of a study has nothing to do with whether someone has something to gain or not. Incorrectly done statistics are incorrectly done if someone has something to gain or not. baltec1 wrote: Well, they found that out of 80,000 trial accounts 85% quit having done no PvP. They also found that less than 1% of people who quit say they left because they lost their ship to pvp. They also found that people take part in PvP play EVE for longer than people who do not. So, how are they using this data wrong? Again wrong. They found that of those 80,000 people 85% had done no pvp in the first 15 days. Out of those 80,000 people they did find that those ganked within the first 15 days stayed longer. They found that less than 1% of all people quitting listed ganking as their reason for leaving. How many people don't even answer? So is it 1% out of 10% who answer of is it 1% out of 50% who answer or is it 1% out of 90% who answer? That makes a huge difference. Did the search included non-consentual pvp, piracy, game mechanics etc.. you just dont know so that 1% is a useless garbage statistic. baltec1 wrote: I add it to all of the other evidence we have. The fact that EVE is falling in subs after years of nerfs to PvP, the fact that the easy to get into PvP is now gone, The fact that EVE grew at it fastest rate when there was a lot more PvP options available and so on. Except the falls in subscription relate to the timing of Incarna (no big surprise there), the release of crime watch and the rebalancing of destroyers and then the removal of Ice to anomalies. Not to pvp changes, excluding crime watch which did little. Primarily what the study proved was that yes people in their first 15 days need to be ganked more. You cannot extrapolate it out to mean anything else because then it is just a guess. baltec1 wrote: So now CCP need to get the world bank involved before you believe them? The only person dodging questions here is you. You still have yet to answer why CCP would want to do this when it flys in the face of the last 5 years of changes. No but an unprovable statistic is a belief, you are acting in a belief not a fact. You are representing this "fact" like people do with the bible. As to dodging questions, I have dodged none. As I have said the results of a flawed study would mean that, they believe that is what the results are. We have no way to verify this study and even then you are going outside the bounds of this study to prove things that were not within the field of this study. CCP have conducted no study to show that the pvp in Hi-sec needs to be increased, except in the case of the first 15 days of a person. Not even the first 15 days of an account just a person and as I said without knowing if those people were recruit a friends or walk ins, the study is very flawed from the get go.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 45203	Posted - 2016.10.21 04:36:24 - [261] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: I am not sure why you are so obsessed with their statistic skills. It's not like this is some magic tool, it just basic math skills every software engineer learns. Because the figures don't match his preconceived ideas. The only logical conclusion in the face of compelling evidence contrary to a view, is to claim there may be something wrong with the figures. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 45203	Posted - 2016.10.21 04:38:27 - [262] - Quote pajedas wrote: Worst trolls and moderation I've seen in a while. Why ccp loves their little shank happy catalyst pilots is beyond me. Hurry! Go cry to a moderator! Don't follow my sig down the rabbit hole (you might not make it out). Not so much trolling, but I agree on the moderation aspect. Everything since page 4 should just be deleted. The OP has been forgotten long ago it seems. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 04:44:01 - [263] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: The inability to do statistics correctly, does not change the fact that people release figures as facts. The statistics they released were done by a company with no prior history in statistics, with no published documentation. Subsequently you can either have faith that they did them right or skepticism at the fact the results cannot be verified. What you do has nothing to do with scepticism but more with plain ignorance. Your assertion that they have "no prior history in statistics" is not only laughable it is just plain wrong. They have a whole department which analyses the in-game market and tries to predict the influence game changes will have. I am not sure why you are so obsessed with their statistic skills. It's not like this is some magic tool, it just basic math skills every software engineer learns. This has nothing to do with faith. We can trust CCP as they have every motivation to get this right. Their base assumption was the contrary of the result which is a strong indicator that there was no bias towards ganking. Motivation has nothing to do with accuracy or performance. Otherwise all races would be ties as all athletes would come first, all priests would be able to part seas and all little boys could fly. Analysis of the in game market is economics, not statistics. Ability to do one does not mean you have the ability to do the other. Kind of like getting a brain surgeon to do your taxes. The fact you believe software engineers can conduct statistical analysis, says a lot. I know why don't you go have your plumber tune you car. So no CCP does not have a great deal of experience with statistics, if they did they would not blunder from mistake to mistake. All you have is faith and belief. You cannot show what you believe to be true, you are just trusting that it is.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 04:47:23 - [264] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: I am not sure why you are so obsessed with their statistic skills. It's not like this is some magic tool, it just basic math skills every software engineer learns. Because the figures don't match his preconceived ideas. The only logical conclusion in the face of compelling evidence contrary to a view, is to claim there may be something wrong with the figures. Please show me this compelling evidence. A simple statement of CCPs showing how they determined the sample, why they excluded factors such as recruit a friend and the raw data they used will be just fine. That is compelling evidence. Not because they said so. I have not said something is wrong with the figures I have said the figures are useless because they cannot be proven to be statistically valid or not.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 45203	Posted - 2016.10.21 04:49:47 - [265] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: I am not sure why you are so obsessed with their statistic skills. It's not like this is some magic tool, it just basic math skills every software engineer learns. Because the figures don't match his preconceived ideas. The only logical conclusion in the face of compelling evidence contrary to a view, is to claim there may be something wrong with the figures. Please show me this compelling evidence. A simple statement of CCPs showing how they determined the sample, why they excluded factors such as recruit a friend and the raw data they used will be just fine. That is compelling evidence. Not because they said so. I have not said something is wrong with the figures I have said the figures are useless because they cannot be proven to be statistically valid or not. Yes, I'm sure the total issue is your lack of access to the primary data and not just CCP's conclusions. If the figures supported your view, I'm sure you'd still be equally sceptical. Like, totally. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2960	Posted - 2016.10.21 04:59:32 - [266] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: All you have is faith and belief. You cannot show what you believe to be true, you are just trusting that it is. Science is not about proving everything every time without a doubt. It is about saying what is more likely and what is not. I tend to believe that a study conducted by people who have access to the data and a strong motivation to get it right is far more likely to be accurate than the gut feelings of a mad carebear without any data and a strong bias against gankers. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:11:26 - [267] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: I tend to believe that a study conducted by people who have access to the data and a strong motivation to get it right is far more likely to be accurate than the gut feelings of a mad carebear without any data and a strong bias against gankers. Yes it is more likely but again a probability is not a certainty and as the statistics have not been verified then they are meaningless. Nor does their study have anything to do with ganking beyond the first 15 days of a player in EvE. So in relation to ganking mining barges, Industrials, exhumers, orcas etc.. it is completely irrelevant. As I did not have any hand in the creation of this statistical product, my bias has nothing to do with the inability to verify the study that was undertaken. Nor does the study even if correct have any correlation to anything outside of the field of the study. So it is completely meaningless after the first 15 days of a players life. So my strong bias, as you put it about gankers ganking older players is in no way relevant to a study that has nothing to do with it.
Myles Wong Mallaks Brown Grotto Raiders 33	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:12:52 - [268] - Quote This thread is still open?!? Can't wait for the chaos F2P brings.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:18:06 - [269] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: I am not sure why you are so obsessed with their statistic skills. It's not like this is some magic tool, it just basic math skills every software engineer learns. Because the figures don't match his preconceived ideas. The only logical conclusion in the face of compelling evidence contrary to a view, is to claim there may be something wrong with the figures. Please show me this compelling evidence. A simple statement of CCPs showing how they determined the sample, why they excluded factors such as recruit a friend and the raw data they used will be just fine. That is compelling evidence. Not because they said so. I have not said something is wrong with the figures I have said the figures are useless because they cannot be proven to be statistically valid or not. Yes, I'm sure the total issue is your lack of access to the primary data and not just CCP's conclusions. If the figures supported your view, I'm sure you'd still be equally sceptical. Like, totally. As I am not a player within the first 15 days of playing, it would really have little to do with the problems I have about gankers after that time period. My concern is the fact that it is unverifiable and that some people are using it as the basis for commentary outside of the specifics of the study. So you have a study which may or may not be correct but no one can verify this, in relation to the first 15 days of play, while some people are then taking this unverifiable study and stating that it should therefore be used as a reason to effect all PvP within hi-sec. It is about as relevant as a study of 9 year olds driving cars and then using that as an argument for lowering the speed limit to 5 for everyone as that was the speed they were safest driving at. It is people stating beliefs as facts. Little more.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:19:15 - [270] - Quote Myles Wong wrote: This thread is still open?!? Can't wait for the chaos F2P brings. I presume alphas would have forum access and you are right. They should not be called alpha clones, they should have called them Chaos clones.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5412	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:23:10 - [271] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: baltec1 wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: No you assume they are right, without knowing the facts of how they got their conclusions. That is no more scientific than religion. You have faith that they CCP, the creator is all knowing and all powerful. And if the all knowing CCP had said ganking is bad, you would have disavowed your God. Why would CCP say this after spending 5 years nerfing highsec PvP into the ground? They literally admitted that the last 5 years of changes were bad for the game. What can they possibly gain from that? The inability to do statistics correctly, does not change the fact that people release figures as facts. The statistics they released were done by a company with no prior history in statistics, with no published documentation. Subsequently you can either have faith that they did them right or skepticism at the fact the results cannot be verified. Faith is exactly that. The belief in something without proof. Also just the very basis they used for the general population, not the NPE for new players was flawed. To determine if ganking was harmful to subscriptions of older characters you would not go by peoples exit comments as to many of them would be non-responses. You would analyze kill mails, vs play styles. For example the amount of time spent mining, which could be achieved by indexing the amount of minerals added to an account by the system in the case of mining of the amount of time an account spent in any type of ship, if that was unavailable, then ammunition destroyed and NPCs killed by an account. There initial study into the NPE showed promise, it is just we cannot take the results as anything more than a belief as we cannot validate their figures and its not as if you can point to CCPs ability to get things right over the years. Edit: Add to this the well known bias shown by some CCP Devs and the figures are automatically in doubt. Given your own grasp on statistical analysis seems tenuous at best, and you are assuming the people at CCP have no background in statistics you really don't have much going for you here. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5416	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:26:40 - [272] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: baltec1 wrote: So you are saying they hand picked those 80,000 trial accounts? I am saying we don't know how they got those 80,000 people. Subsequently we cannot determine the validity of the sample. Well at least you finally got the right number now. So, you are insinuating, without evidence, that CCP cherry picked those 80,000 accounts to prove a point that is bad for their business? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:27:52 - [273] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Given your own grasp on statistical analysis seems tenuous at best, and you are assuming the people at CCP have no background in statistics you really don't have much going for you here. And you are assuming they do. That is the problem with these statistics assumptions. Unprovable assumptions. I must admit this is like talking to Jehovah's Witnesses. Complete and undying faith in their God. In this case CCP. Have you considered moving to Star Citizen, there are a lot of people like you over there. Complete undying loyalty, no matter what.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5416	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:28:21 - [274] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: I am not sure why you are so obsessed with their statistic skills. It's not like this is some magic tool, it just basic math skills every software engineer learns. Because the figures don't match his preconceived ideas. The only logical conclusion in the face of compelling evidence contrary to a view, is to claim there may be something wrong with the figures. Bingo. People who often claim to be empiricists, data driven, etc. are those least likely to change their minds when presented with data that goes against their preconceived notions. "What this contradicts what I already believe!?!?! No that can't be right, the data must be bad, the analysis flawed, oh look something shiny!!!" "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2961	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:29:11 - [275] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: I tend to believe that a study conducted by people who have access to the data and a strong motivation to get it right is far more likely to be accurate than the gut feelings of a mad carebear without any data and a strong bias against gankers. Yes it is more likely but again a probability is not a certainty and as the statistics have not been verified then they are meaningless. Nor does their study have anything to do with ganking beyond the first 15 days of a player in EvE. So in relation to ganking mining barges, Industrials, exhumers, orcas etc.. it is completely irrelevant. As I did not have any hand in the creation of this statistical product, my bias has nothing to do with the inability to verify the study that was undertaken. Nor does the study even if correct have any correlation to anything outside of the field of the study. So it is completely meaningless after the first 15 days of a players life. So my strong bias, as you put it about gankers ganking older players is in no way relevant to a study that has nothing to do with it. So you do agree that for the timeframe of the first 15 days in the life of a player the study is more likely to be accurate than your plain gut feelings which is based on no data at all and a known strong bias against gankers? the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2858	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:30:29 - [276] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: I am not sure why you are so obsessed with their statistic skills. It's not like this is some magic tool, it just basic math skills every software engineer learns. Because the figures don't match his preconceived ideas. The only logical conclusion in the face of compelling evidence contrary to a view, is to claim there may be something wrong with the figures. Please show me this compelling evidence. A simple statement of CCPs showing how they determined the sample, why they excluded factors such as recruit a friend and the raw data they used will be just fine. That is compelling evidence. Not because they said so. I have not said something is wrong with the figures I have said the figures are useless because they cannot be proven to be statistically valid or not. I am afraid CCP is not going to show their work to you. There is no peer review process and those data are proprietary. All you have is a lead developer's word in this. Rise asserted (both in that talk and on the forums) that being exploded by another player correlates positively with player retention and that almost no one cites ship loss when they quit. It also correlates positively with other things than PvP like social integration and interacting with the sandbox. CCP Quant also has shown that time spent subscribed is much higher for players who engage in PvP than those who play Eve solo and "level their Raven" who tend to quit faster. You can accept these stated facts as true or you can decide that CCP is incompetent or straight-out lying. What you cannot do honestly is reject CCPs data and conclusions and replace it with your own made up facts to support your preconceived conclusion without having seen the data. If you think they are incompetent, or worse lying to you, why are you still subscribing to their game? Wouldn't it better to find some other game that is made by a developer you trust? In any case, you are wasting you time on this. If you don't want to believe the facts, then don't. People discount facts and reality all the time for all sorts of reasons. I would just say though that you shouldn't expect the rest of us to get on board the denial train of some random forum alt instead of choosing to believe the people who both have access to the data and have a strong financial motivation to interpret it to the best of their abilities. The 8 Golden Rules of Eve Why Do They Gank?
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5416	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:30:44 - [277] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: I am not sure why you are so obsessed with their statistic skills. It's not like this is some magic tool, it just basic math skills every software engineer learns. Because the figures don't match his preconceived ideas. The only logical conclusion in the face of compelling evidence contrary to a view, is to claim there may be something wrong with the figures. Please show me this compelling evidence. A simple statement of CCPs showing how they determined the sample, why they excluded factors such as recruit a friend and the raw data they used will be just fine. That is compelling evidence. Not because they said so. I have not said something is wrong with the figures I have said the figures are useless because they cannot be proven to be statistically valid or not. Thanks for proving Scipio correct. You do realize you where going on and on about 8,000 players when in fact it was 80,000...right? And that they did not use a random sample. You do realize that the opposite of a random sample is a sample that is selected with a goal in mind--i.e. cherry picking the data. So...why would CCP cherry pick the data? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:31:23 - [278] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: I am not sure why you are so obsessed with their statistic skills. It's not like this is some magic tool, it just basic math skills every software engineer learns. Because the figures don't match his preconceived ideas. The only logical conclusion in the face of compelling evidence contrary to a view, is to claim there may be something wrong with the figures. Bingo. People who often claim to be empiricists, data driven, etc. are those least likely to change their minds when presented with data that goes against their preconceived notions. "What this contradicts what I already believe!?!?! No that can't be right, the data must be bad, the analysis flawed, oh look something shiny!!!" What data goes against my preconcieved notion? Maybe newbies in their first 15 days need to be ganked more. As I have not been in that period of time and neither have 99% of the players of this game, it is hardly something I have a bias for. As to the analysis being flawed that is easy, you test it like everyone does to prove it is valid. Oh wait you can't, you have to rely on belief.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:33:27 - [279] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: I am not sure why you are so obsessed with their statistic skills. It's not like this is some magic tool, it just basic math skills every software engineer learns. Because the figures don't match his preconceived ideas. The only logical conclusion in the face of compelling evidence contrary to a view, is to claim there may be something wrong with the figures. Please show me this compelling evidence. A simple statement of CCPs showing how they determined the sample, why they excluded factors such as recruit a friend and the raw data they used will be just fine. That is compelling evidence. Not because they said so. I have not said something is wrong with the figures I have said the figures are useless because they cannot be proven to be statistically valid or not. Thanks for proving Scipio correct. You do realize you where going on and on about 8,000 players when in fact it was 80,000...right? And that they did not use a random sample. You do realize that the opposite of a random sample is a sample that is selected with a goal in mind--i.e. cherry picking the data. So...why would CCP cherry pick the data? How funny when above you have actually quoted me saying 80,000 people. As to a chery picked sample....Duh. Please go back to your crayons.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5417	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:37:12 - [280] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: I am not sure why you are so obsessed with their statistic skills. It's not like this is some magic tool, it just basic math skills every software engineer learns. Because the figures don't match his preconceived ideas. The only logical conclusion in the face of compelling evidence contrary to a view, is to claim there may be something wrong with the figures. Bingo. People who often claim to be empiricists, data driven, etc. are those least likely to change their minds when presented with data that goes against their preconceived notions. "What this contradicts what I already believe!?!?! No that can't be right, the data must be bad, the analysis flawed, oh look something shiny!!!" What data goes against my preconcieved notion? Maybe newbies in their first 15 days need to be ganked more. As I have not been in that period of time and neither have 99% of the players of this game, it is hardly something I have a bias for. As to the analysis being flawed that is easy, you test it like everyone does to prove it is valid. Oh wait you can't, you have to rely on belief. CCP's data, or are you just that dense. Look, could CCP's data be "bad"? Sure. They could have just gotten a bad sample. Maybe they did, for some completely unfathomable reason, cherry pick the data. But they have data and analysis and results. You do not like the results and have posted dozens of posts claiming that CCP are either incompetent or liars in an attempt to discredit the analysis. I get it. Looking at data and saying, "Crap, I was wrong," is not easy. I know I have had a few times where I have had to do just that and it is not easy. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:37:55 - [281] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: I tend to believe that a study conducted by people who have access to the data and a strong motivation to get it right is far more likely to be accurate than the gut feelings of a mad carebear without any data and a strong bias against gankers. Yes it is more likely but again a probability is not a certainty and as the statistics have not been verified then they are meaningless. Nor does their study have anything to do with ganking beyond the first 15 days of a player in EvE. So in relation to ganking mining barges, Industrials, exhumers, orcas etc.. it is completely irrelevant. As I did not have any hand in the creation of this statistical product, my bias has nothing to do with the inability to verify the study that was undertaken. Nor does the study even if correct have any correlation to anything outside of the field of the study. So it is completely meaningless after the first 15 days of a players life. So my strong bias, as you put it about gankers ganking older players is in no way relevant to a study that has nothing to do with it. So you do agree that for the timeframe of the first 15 days in the life of a player the study is more likely to be accurate than your plain gut feelings which is based on no data at all and a known strong bias against gankers? Yes it is more likely. If you have two horses in a race and one is more likely that could be 51% to 49% are you going to bet the farm on it being more likely? As to gankers I have no feelings one way or the other as to their actions in relation to players within their first 15 days of play, if anything I lean towards the concept that new payers should be ganked more during those 15 days.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5417	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:38:20 - [282] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: How funny when above you have actually quoted me saying 80,000 people. As to a chery picked sample....Duh. Please go back to your crayons. Yes, after my lengthy post pointing out why your going on about CCP's incompetence was largely unfounded you shifted over to 80,000. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:43:18 - [283] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: I am not sure why you are so obsessed with their statistic skills. It's not like this is some magic tool, it just basic math skills every software engineer learns. Because the figures don't match his preconceived ideas. The only logical conclusion in the face of compelling evidence contrary to a view, is to claim there may be something wrong with the figures. Bingo. People who often claim to be empiricists, data driven, etc. are those least likely to change their minds when presented with data that goes against their preconceived notions. "What this contradicts what I already believe!?!?! No that can't be right, the data must be bad, the analysis flawed, oh look something shiny!!!" What data goes against my preconcieved notion? Maybe newbies in their first 15 days need to be ganked more. As I have not been in that period of time and neither have 99% of the players of this game, it is hardly something I have a bias for. As to the analysis being flawed that is easy, you test it like everyone does to prove it is valid. Oh wait you can't, you have to rely on belief. CCP's data, or are you just that dense. Look, could CCP's data be "bad"? Sure. They could have just gotten a bad sample. Maybe they did, for some completely unfathomable reason, cherry pick the data. But they have data and analysis and results. You do not like the results and have posted dozens of posts claiming that CCP are either incompetent or liars in an attempt to discredit the analysis. I get it. Looking at data and saying, "Crap, I was wrong," is not easy. I know I have had a few times where I have had to do just that and it is not easy. Wrong. Wrong and Wrong. I have stated that CCP have no background in statistical analysis and he findings are not verifiable. As to me being wrong, well as i have not stated that players in the first 15 days of play should not be ganked, it would be hard for me to be wrong. Sometimes I am wrong. What I am stating is that we have no way to verify the findings of that study, which may or may not be wrong and subsequently we should not be calling it a fact. In relation to ganking past 15 days the study did not cover that so it is completely irrelevant to the ganking of older player and so my being right or wrong in that regards is not even at issue. While those who used a study into those first 15 days to prove that ALL hi-sec ganking should be increased are wrong, as it is very much apples and oranges.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5418	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:44:28 - [284] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Given your own grasp on statistical analysis seems tenuous at best, and you are assuming the people at CCP have no background in statistics you really don't have much going for you here. And you are assuming they do. That is the problem with these statistics assumptions. Unprovable assumptions. I must admit this is like talking to Jehovah's Witnesses. Complete and undying faith in their God. In this case CCP. Have you considered moving to Star Citizen, there are a lot of people like you over there. Complete undying loyalty, no matter what. I think that what CCP did was construct what can be called a natural experiment in the literature. These are not without their problems, but they can help get around the problem of not having the counter-factual to some degree. So either: 1. Somebody at CCP is pretty bright. 2. They have some familiarity with academic articles that use these kinds of approaches. And I have already admitted that maybe they are wrong on ganking. This is just one look at the issue, it is far from comprehensive, but it does go against your narrative. And I have been highly critical of CCP in other areas. So spare me this Bravo Sierra rhetoric about dogmatism. Also, I'll point out that CCP Rise and the others working on that analysis were surprised by the results. That is, if anything, their prior beliefs were more in line with yours. But like good empircists when they got the results that challenged their prior beliefs they updated those beliefs. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2961	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:49:53 - [285] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: So you do agree that for the timeframe of the first 15 days in the life of a player the study is more likely to be accurate than your plain gut feelings which is based on no data at all and a known strong bias against gankers? Yes it is more likely. If you have two horses in a race and one is more likely that could be 51% to 49% are you going to bet the farm on it being more likely? As to gankers I have no feelings one way or the other as to their actions in relation to players within their first 15 days of play, if anything I lean towards the concept that new payers should be ganked more during those 15 days. Ok, well done, progress. However implying that a study conducted by people with the data and a strong motivation to get it right compared to a simple gut feeling with a strong bias is somehow like two horses with a 51/49 chance of winning is a really bad comparison. Wouldn't you aggree that the probability of CCP getting it right by actually looking at the data compared to your personal feelings is not really 51/49 and actually far more in favour of CCP's study? the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:52:58 - [286] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: So you do agree that for the timeframe of the first 15 days in the life of a player the study is more likely to be accurate than your plain gut feelings which is based on no data at all and a known strong bias against gankers? Yes it is more likely. If you have two horses in a race and one is more likely that could be 51% to 49% are you going to bet the farm on it being more likely? As to gankers I have no feelings one way or the other as to their actions in relation to players within their first 15 days of play, if anything I lean towards the concept that new payers should be ganked more during those 15 days. Ok, well done, progress. However implying that a study conducted by people with the data and a strong motivation to get it right compared to a simple gut feeling with a strong bias is somehow like two horses with a 51/49 chance of winning is a really bad comparison. Wouldn't you aggree that the probability of CCP getting it right by actually looking at the data compared to your personal feelings is not really 51/49 and actually far more in favour of CCP's study? Actually without being able to study there methodology that is about all you can say and even that might be stretching it. But hey you seem to believe that anyone can perform a statistical study if they are determined enough.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5418	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:54:09 - [287] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Wrong. Wrong and Wrong. I have stated that CCP have no background in statistical analysis and he findings are not verifiable. 1. CCP is not going to give you customer data. Ever. You are just some blowhard on the forums like me. Where I work we never, ever give out customer data without making the people asking for it jump through a number of hoops like signing non-disclosure agreements. We don't even give out customer data that has been cleaned of identifying information if the sub-group of customers is small enough that the people getting that data could possibly guess even one customers identity. 2. You have been stating that CCP has no background in statistical analysis which is just a flat out bald face lie. CCP Quant puts together the economic reports and look what is in those...various economic indices. Those are statistical measures. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Merovee Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 203	Posted - 2016.10.21 06:01:09 - [288] - Quote Just kill the little bugger and be done with it, this isn't high school, you millennials need to toughen up and fight back. Empire, the next new world order.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5418	Posted - 2016.10.21 06:05:46 - [289] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: So you do agree that for the timeframe of the first 15 days in the life of a player the study is more likely to be accurate than your plain gut feelings which is based on no data at all and a known strong bias against gankers? Yes it is more likely. If you have two horses in a race and one is more likely that could be 51% to 49% are you going to bet the farm on it being more likely? As to gankers I have no feelings one way or the other as to their actions in relation to players within their first 15 days of play, if anything I lean towards the concept that new payers should be ganked more during those 15 days. Ok, well done, progress. However implying that a study conducted by people with the data and a strong motivation to get it right compared to a simple gut feeling with a strong bias is somehow like two horses with a 51/49 chance of winning is a really bad comparison. Wouldn't you aggree that the probability of CCP getting it right by actually looking at the data compared to your personal feelings is not really 51/49 and actually far more in favour of CCP's study? Actually without being able to study there methodology that is about all you can say and even that might be stretching it. But hey you seem to believe that anyone can perform a statistical study if they are determined enough. Okay, so...you think NOBODY at CCP understands the importance of using a random sample? That CCP Rise's presentation was not gone over by others? The only thing I can conclude is you have never done statistical work in a professional setting. Last time I gave a talk, in front of a room full of math and stats nerds, my presentation was reviewed by my boss, and my co-presenters boss and their director, and other people in our department. And we got quite a bit of feedback and suggestions....and not all of them were stats people by training, but the nature of their work they had learned alot of the fundamentals. So this little narrative of yours just smacks of a desperate attempt to cling to a prior belief...which ironically makes you the dogmatist here. When you set your prior probability for a hypothesis to 1 no amount of empirical data will budge you from your belief. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 06:06:01 - [290] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Given your own grasp on statistical analysis seems tenuous at best, and you are assuming the people at CCP have no background in statistics you really don't have much going for you here. And you are assuming they do. That is the problem with these statistics assumptions. Unprovable assumptions. I must admit this is like talking to Jehovah's Witnesses. Complete and undying faith in their God. In this case CCP. Have you considered moving to Star Citizen, there are a lot of people like you over there. Complete undying loyalty, no matter what. I think that what CCP did was construct what can be called a natural experiment in the literature. These are not without their problems, but they can help get around the problem of not having the counter-factual to some degree. So either: 1. Somebody at CCP is pretty bright. 2. They have some familiarity with academic articles that use these kinds of approaches. And I have already admitted that maybe they are wrong on ganking. This is just one look at the issue, it is far from comprehensive, but it does go against your narrative. And I have been highly critical of CCP in other areas. So spare me this Bravo Sierra rhetoric about dogmatism. Also, I'll point out that CCP Rise and the others working on that analysis were surprised by the results. That is, if anything, their prior beliefs were more in line with yours. But like good empircists when they got the results that challenged their prior beliefs they updated those beliefs. Which is well done for them and I do hope they learn more and create better studies in the future. A full study into ganking might be very helpful to guide their future thinking, same as getting players to Null or even if they want to and will allow the use of resources properly, rather on those who can vote to get people on the pretty much now useless CSM or scream the most on the forums. My narrative on the ganking of miners is one thing which this study has neither proved nor disproved. I believe that we have lost large numbers of subs who are Hi-sec primarily, being miners and industrialists. Not primarily Null characters who use Hi-sec to gain isk or a break. As you can see this study did not go near my assumptions at all. To be honest I hope they do some how increase the ganking on new players as that may help their subscription rate and god knows they need it. My problem is those that are taking this study as if to prove that all of Hi-sec ganking needs to be increased and calling it a fact. It is a very limited study that CCP may or may not have gotten right. As to the Jehovah's Witnesses that was not so much aimed at you. That would be for those who keep using the word "fact", for an unprovable study. It is what it is, a concept, an idea.
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2962	Posted - 2016.10.21 06:07:54 - [291] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: So you do agree that for the timeframe of the first 15 days in the life of a player the study is more likely to be accurate than your plain gut feelings which is based on no data at all and a known strong bias against gankers? Yes it is more likely. If you have two horses in a race and one is more likely that could be 51% to 49% are you going to bet the farm on it being more likely? As to gankers I have no feelings one way or the other as to their actions in relation to players within their first 15 days of play, if anything I lean towards the concept that new payers should be ganked more during those 15 days. Ok, well done, progress. However implying that a study conducted by people with the data and a strong motivation to get it right compared to a simple gut feeling with a strong bias is somehow like two horses with a 51/49 chance of winning is a really bad comparison. Wouldn't you aggree that the probability of CCP getting it right by actually looking at the data compared to your personal feelings is not really 51/49 and actually far more in favour of CCP's study? Actually without being able to study there methodology that is about all you can say and even that might be stretching it. But hey you seem to believe that anyone can perform a statistical study if they are determined enough. Assising the available possibilities even if they can't be proven and be verified without a doubt is called a forming an informed opinion. Relying only on personal gut feelings and disregarding every other source of information with the wrong notion that it has to be 100% certain or it has no value at all is simply blind faith and ignorance. Now that we have established that it is more likely that CCP's study is more accurate than your gut feelings, can you exlain how anyone can assert that for players outside the 15 days the result would be the complete opposite? I would say the information that only <1% cite ship loss as a reason for quiting is a strong indicatior that the figure does not certanly flip on it's head after the 15 days. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 45205	Posted - 2016.10.21 06:08:52 - [292] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Actually without being able to study there methodology that is about all you can say and even that might be stretching it. But hey you seem to believe that anyone can perform a statistical study if they are determined enough. Without putting your own credentials in public for all to see, why would CCP even think you are at all capable of studying their methodology? I see very similar things all the time. People, unhappy with inconvenient information try to dismiss it because they personally haven't had the opportunity to verify it, even though quite often they aren't capable of making a reasonable judgement about it anyway. It's everyone's right of course to place trust or not, where information can't be verified, just as we commonly do in situations where we can actually verify information but choose not to. However as a private company, CCP are under no obligation to release that information to its customers. They've told us what they believe to be the truth and for their business decisions, that's what counts. You can refuse to believe it, but so what? You don't make decisions for CCP anymore that I do. So what we individually believe or not is irrelevant. It only matters what CCP believe about their data. Ah damn. There I am all sucked into this totally off topic rubbish. @OP: How did it work out for you. Did that other miner griefer get his just desserts? Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 06:10:15 - [293] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Okay, so...you think NOBODY at CCP understands the importance of using a random sample? You completely screwed it there. You are making an assumption. You are not saying CCP such and such is a statistician, you are saying one of them must understand statistics surely. That is a massive error and exactly why statistics that are non-verifiable are considered rubbish.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5418	Posted - 2016.10.21 06:14:08 - [294] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Which is well done for them and I do hope they learn more and create better studies in the future. A full study into ganking might be very helpful to guide their future thinking, same as getting players to Null or even if they want to and will allow the use of resources properly, rather on those who can vote to get people on the pretty much now useless CSM or scream the most on the forums. My narrative on the ganking of miners is one thing which this study has neither proved nor disproved. I believe that we have lost large numbers of subs who are Hi-sec primarily, being miners and industrialists. Not primarily Null characters who use Hi-sec to gain isk or a break. As you can see this study did not go near my assumptions at all. To be honest I hope they do some how increase the ganking on new players as that may help their subscription rate and god knows they need it. My problem is those that are taking this study as if to prove that all of Hi-sec ganking needs to be increased and calling it a fact. It is a very limited study that CCP may or may not have gotten right. As to the Jehovah's Witnesses that was not so much aimed at you. That would be for those who keep using the word "fact", for an unprovable study. It is what it is, a concept, an idea. Well...if that sample was indeed randomized then you could very well be wrong. As I pointed out, when you want to use a sample to determine some summary statistics for a population you do not need 80,000 if your total population is say a few million. You could probably do well with say 1,000. But when you want to break that sample down into smaller sub-groupings, unless you want to use stratified sampling, you should increase your sample size. Maybe 80,000 isn't enough to answer your questions, but we'd need to see what those sub-groupings looked like. And yes, this analysis should make you less strident in your claims, IMO. It does suggest that being exposed to PvP leads people to stay longer. Is that true of HS miners? Good question, but if it were me, and being the good Bayesian I am, I'd have to move more towards "ganking is not detrimental" than further away....and so should you. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 06:16:04 - [295] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Actually without being able to study there methodology that is about all you can say and even that might be stretching it. But hey you seem to believe that anyone can perform a statistical study if they are determined enough. Without putting your own credentials in public for all to see, why would CCP even think you are at all capable of studying their methodology? I see very similar things all the time. People, unhappy with inconvenient information try to dismiss it because they personally haven't had the opportunity to verify it, even though quite often they aren't capable of making a reasonable judgement about it anyway. It's everyone's right of course to place trust or not, where information can't be verified, just as we commonly do in situations where we can actually verify information but choose not to. However as a private company, CCP are under no obligation to release that information to its customers. They've told us what they believe to be the truth and for their business decisions, that's what counts. You can refuse to believe it, but so what? You don't make decisions for CCP anymore that I do. So what we individually believe or not is irrelevant. It only matters what CCP believe about their data. No CCP are under no obligation and nor should they be. Due to the confidentialised nature of national data this is passed off to international organisations, huge numbers of companies use third parties to determine some statistics, especially mediacal studies. In this case it is an internal CCP figure that is what they are using for their NPE and good on them. They have told us what they believe to be true and it is up to them to use or not use their information. I find no disagreement with anything at all in what you said. However it does not make it a fact or alter its use in areas outside the study. That is literally all I have been saying. That and I think they should ask Statistics Iceland to help them. the better their statistics the better the game will become and the longer it will live.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 06:22:51 - [296] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Which is well done for them and I do hope they learn more and create better studies in the future. A full study into ganking might be very helpful to guide their future thinking, same as getting players to Null or even if they want to and will allow the use of resources properly, rather on those who can vote to get people on the pretty much now useless CSM or scream the most on the forums. My narrative on the ganking of miners is one thing which this study has neither proved nor disproved. I believe that we have lost large numbers of subs who are Hi-sec primarily, being miners and industrialists. Not primarily Null characters who use Hi-sec to gain isk or a break. As you can see this study did not go near my assumptions at all. To be honest I hope they do some how increase the ganking on new players as that may help their subscription rate and god knows they need it. My problem is those that are taking this study as if to prove that all of Hi-sec ganking needs to be increased and calling it a fact. It is a very limited study that CCP may or may not have gotten right. As to the Jehovah's Witnesses that was not so much aimed at you. That would be for those who keep using the word "fact", for an unprovable study. It is what it is, a concept, an idea. Well...if that sample was indeed randomized then you could very well be wrong. As I pointed out, when you want to use a sample to determine some summary statistics for a population you do not need 80,000 if your total population is say a few million. You could probably do well with say 1,000. But when you want to break that sample down into smaller sub-groupings, unless you want to use stratified sampling, you should increase your sample size. Maybe 80,000 isn't enough to answer your questions, but we'd need to see what those sub-groupings looked like. And yes, this analysis should make you less strident in your claims, IMO. It does suggest that being exposed to PvP leads people to stay longer. Is that true of HS miners? Good question, but if it were me, and being the good Bayesian I am, I'd have to move more towards "ganking is not detrimental" than further away....and so should you. In relation to newer characters I agree, and this would naturally have a flow on effect to characters as they got older. As to older characters I have my beliefs which I am happy to fight for but cant say I agree that it needs to be increased. After all does ganking in the first 15 days led to a player who is more concerned about losses later in the game, does this then follow that those players would be less effected by ganking later in their game lives. And what would be the net effect of increasing ganking on a population that cannot deal with the current level of ganking? Does CCP need a OPE, Older Player Experience in game guide, to show people how to tank etc.. Yes the sub-groupings would be interesting.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 45205	Posted - 2016.10.21 06:24:12 - [297] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: However it does not make it a fact or alter its use in areas outside the study. That is literally all I have been saying. That and I think they should ask Statistics Iceland to help them. the better their statistics the better the game will become and the longer it will live. Nor does it make it false. It is perfectly fine for others to quote the information they have been given by CCP and to question those that would call into question CCPs ability to divide 1/100 and write it as a percentage. But, end of for me. Off topic, irrelevant crap isn't worth much time. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5418	Posted - 2016.10.21 06:25:25 - [298] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Okay, so...you think NOBODY at CCP understands the importance of using a random sample? You completely screwed it there. You are making an assumption. You are not saying CCP such and such is a statistician, you are saying one of them must understand statistics surely. That is a massive error and exactly why statistics that are non-verifiable are considered rubbish. Excuse me, but aren't you making an assumption that NOBODY at CCP understands statistics? Did you not write, Quote: I have stated that CCP have no background in statistical analysis.... Link You are the one making an assumption. Here let me help you out here. I work for a utility. We have lots of engineers, linemen, and even customer service reps....but also alot of people who are very familiar with statistical analysis. We use plain old vanilla regression models, time series models, monte carlo simulations, bayesian probabilities, non-linear regression, and that is just the stuff I've been involve with. My point is, which apparently went right over your head, that while CCP are not a government statistical agency, that does not mean there are not people at CCP capable of doing good solid statistical analysis. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5418	Posted - 2016.10.21 06:40:07 - [299] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: However it does not make it a fact or alter its use in areas outside the study. That is literally all I have been saying. That and I think they should ask Statistics Iceland to help them. the better their statistics the better the game will become and the longer it will live. Do you...by any chance work for a government statistical agency...and thus think only good statistical work is done in such agencies? There is alot of complicated math underlying the various in-game effects. For example, when I first started playing I was training Gallente and thought I'd give electronic warfare a try so I looked at sensor damps. I was trying to figure out how they worked and it wasn't making much sense. I knew about stacking penalties, but could get anything solid on how such penalties worked. So I went to the University of Google...and found an interesting pdf. Some guy had gotten some sensor damping ships and ran a bunch of tests collected the data and ended up reverse engineering the underlying math. The analysis was pretty damned impressive. What was also impressive was the complicated math that was used to come up with stacking penalties. So I'm pretty sure many of those guys at CCP are, generally speaking, pretty math literate, and being that statistics is a sub field of math....pretty sure that they can figure out how to do statistics if they need too. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 06:42:53 - [300] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Assising the available possibilities even if they can't be proven and be verified without a doubt is called a forming an informed opinion. No that is how you start things like the anti-vaccination movement. Ima Wreckyou wrote: Relying only on personal gut feelings and disregarding every other source of information with the wrong notion that it has to be 100% certain or it has no value at all is simply blind faith and ignorance. Now that we have established that it is more likely that CCP's study is more accurate than your gut feelings, can you exlain how anyone can assert that for players outside the 15 days the result would be the complete opposite? I would say the information that only <1% cite ship loss as a reason for quiting is a strong indicatior that the figure does not certanly flip on it's head after the 15 days. Quite easily, after you go past a field of a statistical study the conclusions become unreliable. In this case for example you are extremely unlikely to lose 6 billion in cargo in a freighter in your first 15 days of play but you can afterwards or a 200 million hulk or an industrial full of cargo worth hundreds of millions. As to the less than 15 that is a complete just statistic as we do not know he number of non-respondants or the number of similar statements that were not included. That really is of completely no use what so ever.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 06:48:21 - [301] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: However it does not make it a fact or alter its use in areas outside the study. That is literally all I have been saying. That and I think they should ask Statistics Iceland to help them. the better their statistics the better the game will become and the longer it will live. Do you...by any chance work for a government statistical agency...and thus think only good statistical work is done in such agencies? There is alot of complicated math underlying the various in-game effects. For example, when I first started playing I was training Gallente and thought I'd give electronic warfare a try so I looked at sensor damps. I was trying to figure out how they worked and it wasn't making much sense. I knew about stacking penalties, but could get anything solid on how such penalties worked. So I went to the University of Google...and found an interesting pdf. Some guy had gotten some sensor damping ships and ran a bunch of tests collected the data and ended up reverse engineering the underlying math. The analysis was pretty damned impressive. What was also impressive was the complicated math that was used to come up with stacking penalties. So I'm pretty sure many of those guys at CCP are, generally speaking, pretty math literate, and being that statistics is a sub field of math....pretty sure that they can figure out how to do statistics if they need too. Actually a lot of great statistical work is done by private companies and especially universities. The problem as I am sure you are aware with statistics, the correlation and causation effects on a study and their inclusion, exclusion and modelling. So while it is a sub branch of mathematics, it is rather specialised, much the same as economics is.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5418	Posted - 2016.10.21 07:01:02 - [302] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Actually a lot of great statistical work is done by private companies and especially universities. The problem as I am sure you are aware with statistics, the correlation and causation effects on a study and their inclusion, exclusion and modelling. So while it is a sub branch of mathematics, it is rather specialised, much the same as economics is. Yes, I am very aware of the issue with causation, but there was no claims of causation by CCP. They merely reported the statstical findings and noted that they were surprised by a number of findings and that one cannot rely too much on their preconceived notions. In the presentation CCP Rise did some informal polling of the audience and I'm guessing many in the audience were surprised by the findings too. Was it a definitive analysis of ganking? No. But it is pretty much the only analysis of ganking I'm aware of, and it points to the direction of ganking not being a problem for players less than 15 days old. Again, if your initial belief is that ganking is bad, this should move you away from that view at least to some degree. In fact, if your initial view is "Ganking is Bad" then this result, if true, should do more to move your posterior beliefs because it would be "more surprising" to you than to someone who felt "Ganking is Not Bad". "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 07:13:04 - [303] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Actually a lot of great statistical work is done by private companies and especially universities. The problem as I am sure you are aware with statistics, the correlation and causation effects on a study and their inclusion, exclusion and modelling. So while it is a sub branch of mathematics, it is rather specialised, much the same as economics is. Yes, I am very aware of the issue with causation, but there was no claims of causation by CCP. They merely reported the statstical findings and noted that they were surprised by a number of findings and that one cannot rely too much on their preconceived notions. In the presentation CCP Rise did some informal polling of the audience and I'm guessing many in the audience were surprised by the findings too. Was it a definitive analysis of ganking? No. But it is pretty much the only analysis of ganking I'm aware of, and it points to the direction of ganking not being a problem for players less than 15 days old. Again, if your initial belief is that ganking is bad, this should move you away from that view at least to some degree. In fact, if your initial view is "Ganking is Bad" then this result, if true, should do more to move your posterior beliefs because it would be "more surprising" to you than to someone who felt "Ganking is Not Bad". Yes it was surprising and yes my view of ganking in the first 15 days has changed. I am still in the maybe ganking is good within the first 15 days, not going to definitely yes. Primarily due to the unknown nature of the study. The main thing I think it made me realise is that yes if I am right or dead wrong they really need to do a proper study on Hi-Sec ganking and go from there, given that CCP has wet its toes on statistics, I do hope they do more and ignore the CSM a lot more (even though after last year hat would be hard) except where they are screaming at them (Historically the time when CCP seems to ignore them) and ignore the forums more, except the dev blog feed back as I am sure you are aware of the statistical lag that normally occurs. I do stand by the fact that that less than 1% statistic was complete rubbish and frankly would hope that CCP learn to publish the methodology behind their studies so they can be examined. Not so much the raw data, just the methodology, it would also be a useful exersise for them.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 18155	Posted - 2016.10.21 07:22:14 - [304] - Quote Three pages of stats chat that boil down to " since CCP came up with an answer I disagree with, they must have done their sums wrong" "Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming." Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 07:26:55 - [305] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Three pages of stats chat that boil down to " since CCP came up with an answer I disagree with, they must have done their sums wrong" Not at all. Actually it boils down to, they may have done something wrong in regards to their study but should run with it anyway after all players 15 days or less might learn to tank a ship if they get ganked early. The 1% statistic is so unresolved it is complete rubbish And the initial study of 15 days or less cannot be used to extrapolate the effects of ganking on players after that initial 15 days. Edit: Oh and some people on these forums seem to believe that CCP is their God and CCPs words are gospel. So lets hope they never get near the Star Citizen followers that believe the same about Chris Roberts or we are going to see another holy war.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5419	Posted - 2016.10.21 08:28:04 - [306] - Quote So there I was passing through Uedama in my crane passing a bumping macherial. I see a guy in a freighter in Sivala so I thought, I'll be nice I'll warn him. So I convo him and the message comes back, I have been added to his blocked list. See, you guys complaining about freighter ganking...you damn well deserve it. Every last bit of it. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 08:50:22 - [307] - Quote deleted
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18342	Posted - 2016.10.21 09:54:04 - [308] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Wrong. Wrong and Wrong. I have stated that CCP have no background in statistical analysis and he findings are not verifiable. Its a building full of people with degrees in mathematical subjects, a huge number of them have done degrees that involve physics, they even have people who used to work in the banking sector. They are a hell of a lot more qualified to run statistics than you are.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 10:04:53 - [309] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Wrong. Wrong and Wrong. I have stated that CCP have no background in statistical analysis and he findings are not verifiable. Its a building full of people with degrees in mathematical subjects, a huge number of them have done degrees that involve physics, they even have people who used to work in the banking sector. They are a hell of a lot more qualified to run statistics than you are. You forgot to add "All praise CCP, the great and all knowing"
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18342	Posted - 2016.10.21 10:15:15 - [310] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: baltec1 wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Wrong. Wrong and Wrong. I have stated that CCP have no background in statistical analysis and he findings are not verifiable. Its a building full of people with degrees in mathematical subjects, a huge number of them have done degrees that involve physics, they even have people who used to work in the banking sector. They are a hell of a lot more qualified to run statistics than you are. You forgot to add "All praise CCP, the great and all knowing" So people with degrees in mathematical subjects cant so statistics? Is that what you are saying?
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 10:23:50 - [311] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: baltec1 wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Wrong. Wrong and Wrong. I have stated that CCP have no background in statistical analysis and he findings are not verifiable. Its a building full of people with degrees in mathematical subjects, a huge number of them have done degrees that involve physics, they even have people who used to work in the banking sector. They are a hell of a lot more qualified to run statistics than you are. You forgot to add "All praise CCP, the great and all knowing" So people with degrees in mathematical subjects cant so statistics? Is that what you are saying? I had a nice discussion with Teckos Pech, why don't you toddle off and read that.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5419	Posted - 2016.10.21 10:26:05 - [312] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: deleted Hahahaha.... "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5419	Posted - 2016.10.21 10:26:51 - [313] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: baltec1 wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Wrong. Wrong and Wrong. I have stated that CCP have no background in statistical analysis and he findings are not verifiable. Its a building full of people with degrees in mathematical subjects, a huge number of them have done degrees that involve physics, they even have people who used to work in the banking sector. They are a hell of a lot more qualified to run statistics than you are. You forgot to add "All praise CCP, the great and all knowing" Maybe you can not be a deick? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5419	Posted - 2016.10.21 10:28:22 - [314] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: baltec1 wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: baltec1 wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Wrong. Wrong and Wrong. I have stated that CCP have no background in statistical analysis and he findings are not verifiable. Its a building full of people with degrees in mathematical subjects, a huge number of them have done degrees that involve physics, they even have people who used to work in the banking sector. They are a hell of a lot more qualified to run statistics than you are. You forgot to add "All praise CCP, the great and all knowing" So people with degrees in mathematical subjects cant so statistics? Is that what you are saying? I had a nice discussion with Teckos Pech, why don't you toddle off and read that. Where I work, the one guy who usually gets my more...mathematically esoteric comments is the guy with the computer science degree. I say something, and he's is nodding while the engineers are sitting there going "Wut?" "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 10:29:14 - [315] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: baltec1 wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Wrong. Wrong and Wrong. I have stated that CCP have no background in statistical analysis and he findings are not verifiable. Its a building full of people with degrees in mathematical subjects, a huge number of them have done degrees that involve physics, they even have people who used to work in the banking sector. They are a hell of a lot more qualified to run statistics than you are. You forgot to add "All praise CCP, the great and all knowing" Maybe you can not be a deick? Well I could but given the last 3 pages and the fact he did not bother to read them. I must admit I was not in the kindest frames of mind.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18344	Posted - 2016.10.21 10:35:23 - [316] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: I had a nice discussion with Teckos Pech, why don't you toddle off and read that. How about you answer the question.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 10:36:08 - [317] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: baltec1 wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: baltec1 wrote: Its a building full of people with degrees in mathematical subjects, a huge number of them have done degrees that involve physics, they even have people who used to work in the banking sector. They are a hell of a lot more qualified to run statistics than you are. You forgot to add "All praise CCP, the great and all knowing" So people with degrees in mathematical subjects cant so statistics? Is that what you are saying? I had a nice discussion with Teckos Pech, why don't you toddle off and read that. Where I work, the one guy who usually gets my more...mathematically esoteric comments is the guy with the computer science degree. I say something, and he's is nodding while the engineers are sitting there going "Wut?" Where I work, if we find a smart IT guy, they get snapped up and cross trained, hell if kitchen staff have a good IQ we go after them as well. Intelligence is not linked to occupation. Unfortunately. A guy I work with completed his Bachelor of science 10 years ago and could not find a job. He ended up doing menial tasks till he entered on a low entry level position. Literally one of the smartest people I have ever met.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5419	Posted - 2016.10.21 10:37:11 - [318] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Well I could but given the last 3 pages and the fact he did not bother to read them. I must admit I was not in the kindest frames of mind. How about this....guys with CS degrees are also pretty good at math. Hell, the CS guy where I work is not only good at math he is good at economics. I mean shockingly good for a non-econ guy. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 10:41:39 - [319] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Well I could but given the last 3 pages and the fact he did not bother to read them. I must admit I was not in the kindest frames of mind. How about this....guys with CS degrees are also pretty good at math. Hell, the CS guy where I work is not only good at math he is good at economics. I mean shockingly good for a non-econ guy. Lets say a high propensity for maths. I have several friends who are CS lecturers at universities, One of them is brilliant at maths, most are pretty good and there is one I would not want to calculate the cost of a take out order.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5419	Posted - 2016.10.21 10:53:40 - [320] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Well I could but given the last 3 pages and the fact he did not bother to read them. I must admit I was not in the kindest frames of mind. How about this....guys with CS degrees are also pretty good at math. Hell, the CS guy where I work is not only good at math he is good at economics. I mean shockingly good for a non-econ guy. Lets say a high propensity for maths. I have several friends who are CS lecturers at universities, One of them is brilliant at maths, most are pretty good and there is one I would not want to calculate the cost of a take out order. Can we then also extrapolate that the people at CCP are not idiots? This does not preclude that CCP does dumb things, but the individuals are not dumb....maybe? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 18345	Posted - 2016.10.21 11:02:45 - [321] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Well I could but given the last 3 pages and the fact he did not bother to read them. I must admit I was not in the kindest frames of mind. How about this....guys with CS degrees are also pretty good at math. Hell, the CS guy where I work is not only good at math he is good at economics. I mean shockingly good for a non-econ guy. Lets say a high propensity for maths. I have several friends who are CS lecturers at universities, One of them is brilliant at maths, most are pretty good and there is one I would not want to calculate the cost of a take out order. So you are saying everyone in the CCP building, most of them having high level mathmatical degrees are no good at maths, to the point that they cant even do simple statistics?
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2016.10.21 11:02:57 - [322] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Well I could but given the last 3 pages and the fact he did not bother to read them. I must admit I was not in the kindest frames of mind. How about this....guys with CS degrees are also pretty good at math. Hell, the CS guy where I work is not only good at math he is good at economics. I mean shockingly good for a non-econ guy. Lets say a high propensity for maths. I have several friends who are CS lecturers at universities, One of them is brilliant at maths, most are pretty good and there is one I would not want to calculate the cost of a take out order. Can we then also extrapolate that the people at CCP are not idiots? This does not preclude that CCP does dumb things, but the individuals are not dumb....maybe? I think you broadened that a bit much, lets say are probable to be good at mathematics. So I think I know where you are going. In so much that they might have done the less than 15 day statistical analysis correctly. Actually didn't we cover this ground? Anyway yes it is plausible though unverifiable that they completed that analysis correctly covering all the usual traps and pit falls. However as we are unable to verify this the statistics must be taken with skepticism and not as fact. Sorry if I went down a different path.
pajedas Special Activities Division 322	Posted - 2016.10.21 11:14:50 - [323] - Quote Message Received. Cancelled Account 01 It's funny that I got THIS when I went to log and to go to my next account for cancellation. Guess I'll have to finish later today. Cheers! G¡É I was right, trolls are afraid to leave the safety of moderation! G¡É
Chopper Rollins Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1629	Posted - 2016.10.21 11:16:31 - [324] - Quote This thread turned to dildos a while ago. :( Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2858	Posted - 2016.10.21 11:26:30 - [325] - Quote pajedas wrote: Message Received. Cancelled Account 01 It's funny that I got THIS when I went to log and to go to my next account for cancellation. Guess I'll have to finish later today. Cheers! I am confused. Didn't you say less than 24 hours ago your subscription was going to outlast everyone else? Between people saying they are going to quit yet never leaving (or who come back a few months later), and people who say they are never going to quit but then do rage quit, I don't know what's what. And it probably will become even more confusing once alpha clones can post on these forums. I think we should have a policy about keep 'Quitting Eve' posts off these forums... oh wait we do! Come on ISDs, put this thread out of its misery. The 8 Golden Rules of Eve Why Do They Gank?
Kaivarian Coste Maut Merchant Navy 89	Posted - 2016.10.21 11:27:07 - [326] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Or mine ice in lowsec where you can actually shoot your competition with a reasonable amount of fire power without losing more assets than the gankee. ^ This. If you're mining ice, train up for an Endurance. It's a cheap ship. A fully-fitted Endurance will cost about 25m isk. You can make approx 30m isk/hr mining Glare Crust in low sec. Much better than the 15m you'd make in high sec. And low sec competition is nil. You'll face the occasional pirate, but as long as you're only losing 1 ship every 2 hours, you're making more ISK than in high sec.
March rabbit Mosquito Squadron The-Culture 1933	Posted - 2016.10.21 11:35:34 - [327] - Quote LoL.... People still discussing these 3 slides where CCP told on Fanfest 'we studied something (and we don't tell you what exactly we did and how) and we got to conclusion which all of you drunk nerds will love: ganking is cool' ? I love GD The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5419	Posted - 2016.10.21 11:58:44 - [328] - Quote pajedas wrote: Message Received. Cancelled Account 01 It's funny that I got THIS when I went to log and to go to my next account for cancellation. Guess I'll have to finish later today. Cheers! Can you just unsub please. We'll all be better off for it. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5419	Posted - 2016.10.21 12:00:40 - [329] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Well I could but given the last 3 pages and the fact he did not bother to read them. I must admit I was not in the kindest frames of mind. How about this....guys with CS degrees are also pretty good at math. Hell, the CS guy where I work is not only good at math he is good at economics. I mean shockingly good for a non-econ guy. Lets say a high propensity for maths. I have several friends who are CS lecturers at universities, One of them is brilliant at maths, most are pretty good and there is one I would not want to calculate the cost of a take out order. So you are saying everyone in the CCP building, most of them having high level mathmatical degrees are no good at maths, to the point that they cant even do simple statistics? Yup. They be dumbies. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Anne Dieu-le-veut Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People 309	Posted - 2016.10.21 12:42:42 - [330] - Quote pajedas wrote: Fact: I stared this game way before you and will be here long after you've gone. pajedas wrote: Message Received. Cancelled Account 01 It's funny that I got THIS when I went to log and to go to my next account for cancellation. Guess I'll have to finish later today. Cheers! LOL Since no one has asked yet...can I have your stuff?
Revis Owen The Conference Elite CODE. 418	Posted - 2016.10.21 13:17:53 - [331] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: In fact, if your initial view is "Ganking is Bad" then this result, if true, should do more to move your posterior beliefs because it would be "more surprising" to you than to someone who felt "Ganking is Not Bad". Yes it was surprising and yes my view of ganking in the first 15 days has changed. And since your view of post 15 day ganking is similarly based on no data, it is substantially possible that you are wide open to a future in which you are yet again surprised to find you were wrong. Agent of the New Order http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 360	Posted - 2016.10.21 13:38:14 - [332] - Quote pajedas wrote: Message Received. Cancelled Account 01 It's funny that I got THIS when I went to log and to go to my next account for cancellation. Guess I'll have to finish later today. Cheers! /headdesk /headdesk /headdesk /headdesk /headdesk --Gadget attempting to make the pain go away Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Galaxy Duck Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing 79	Posted - 2016.10.21 13:51:05 - [333] - Quote pajedas wrote: Message Received. Cancelled Account 01 It's funny that I got THIS when I went to log and to go to my next account for cancellation. Guess I'll have to finish later today. Cheers! Don't let the space-door hit ya where the space-god split ya!
Jagd Wilde The Scope Gallente Federation 37	Posted - 2016.10.21 13:52:11 - [334] - Quote pajedas wrote: Message Received. Cancelled Account 01 It's funny that I got THIS when I went to log and to go to my next account for cancellation. Guess I'll have to finish later today. Cheers! Well don't give up ag friend We know you can do eeet. How did your blog work out? No one reads that one either huh? Gheers! every alt I own has a red safety this has brought my friends much laughter
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 360	Posted - 2016.10.21 13:54:25 - [335] - Quote Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote: pajedas wrote: Fact: I stared this game way before you and will be here long after you've gone. pajedas wrote: Message Received. Cancelled Account 01 It's funny that I got THIS when I went to log and to go to my next account for cancellation. Guess I'll have to finish later today. Cheers! LOL Since no one has asked yet...can I have your stuff? Better yet. How much for the toon? I'll bid 2 mil. You can then give the ISK to Anne. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Jagd Wilde The Scope Gallente Federation 39	Posted - 2016.10.21 14:09:58 - [336] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: How much for the toon? I'll bid 2 mil. You can then give the ISK to Anne. --Gadget Don't buy used alts from antiganking alts. They show up all sticky. and the deodorizing! Don't open that can of worms. Literally. (Get it? Corpse full of maggots=can of worms. I'm pretty bad at this) every alt I own has a red safety this has brought my friends much laughter
ISD Max Trix ISD Community Communications Liaisons 393	Posted - 2016.10.21 14:35:33 - [337] - Quote This thread has gone way off topic and has run its course. Time for it to go to sleep. ISD Max Trix Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department *I do not respond to Evemails.*

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