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NeoMorph
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Posted - 2003.12.24 21:16:00 -
[31]
God this really bites it... For things like this CCP should keep backups of corp acceptance and access and when someone deletes a char the info gets logged too.
Using a flaw in CCP's database management system to hide the cookie trail is a clear and blatent abuse of the system.
My corp recently merged with another corp who lost all their stuff to a corp thief. That's one reason why when I joined I insisted that there be only 2 people who have full access to the bps. It doesnt reduce the risk totally but it DOES limit it.
Like someone said, they should allow us to create "SECURE" hangers that can only be withdrawn from when a specified number of directors give the go-ahead. It would stop corp thievery like this dead.
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<Stavros> the first motor bike i ever rode
<Stavros> was a honda gold wing
<Ak-Gara> hah
<Stavros> |
Mon Palae
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Posted - 2003.12.24 21:22:00 -
[32]
 Quote:
Like someone said, they should allow us to create "SECURE" hangers that can only be withdrawn from when a specified number of directors give the go-ahead. It would stop corp thievery like this dead.
Doesn't CCP want Corp thievery in teh game? Not hacks but legitimate scams done within the gameplay parameters?
I am NOT condoning it. It is a brutal thing to have happen and the perp is as low as they come. I'm just wondering if you will ever get your 'secure' hangars as I doubt CCP wants those in-game.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.12.24 21:25:00 -
[33]
Even if a player with current and accepted hangar access created a character, gave it the required hangar access, stole all the gear, transferred it, deleted the character and recreated it after 5 hours, it still falls into the required category of "corp thievery through game mechanics".
Tough luck, TTI, but I think you're stuck with the losses.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Max Delorian
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Posted - 2003.12.24 21:46:00 -
[34]
Quote:
This is just my opinion, but, isin't it rather hard to keep track of 180 members and their "rights". It is obvious to most that tti has nowhere near that many members that are active. Before I joined evol, I was a ceo of a corp that was around 65-70 members. I made it policy that anyone I didn't see for a long while, was kicked, with a eve-mail explaining, telling to just rejoin if became active again. I looked at it as protection against those who could have sold acct's via e-bay or whatever. Hate to have a director who was afk 3mos log on and clean u out to set himself back up in game.
Yes we know that. Another thing we also know is that clearing out inactive players is bugged at the moment, requesting that the player be online. Therefore it would be impossible to do that anyway.
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Came in like a mess, going out in style
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2003.12.24 21:50:00 -
[35]
Quote:
Quote:
This is just my opinion, but, isin't it rather hard to keep track of 180 members and their "rights". It is obvious to most that tti has nowhere near that many members that are active. Before I joined evol, I was a ceo of a corp that was around 65-70 members. I made it policy that anyone I didn't see for a long while, was kicked, with a eve-mail explaining, telling to just rejoin if became active again. I looked at it as protection against those who could have sold acct's via e-bay or whatever. Hate to have a director who was afk 3mos log on and clean u out to set himself back up in game.
Yes we know that. Another thing we also know is that clearing out inactive players is bugged at the moment, requesting that the player be online. Therefore it would be impossible to do that anyway.
Kicking people is bugged? eek, ccp that needs fixin asap.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Tigge91862
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Posted - 2003.12.24 21:50:00 -
[36]
I've been with TTI long enough to know that not just anyone can be given director status. We have people dating back to beta who haven't heard of Blaylock. No posts on the TTI forums have been made by a 'Blaylock'.
AFAIK, Ragnar was the only one with Director/CEO status back when he was in power, and only Gunny and MarkA have that status now. I mean, honestly, how could someone that noone has ever heard of get enough roles and grantable hangar access? I find the possibilities to be slim and none. And then for that person to be low enough to steal from the corp. Come on...
This is just sickening. I mean, merry ******* christmas, eh?
Wesley
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Max Delorian
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Posted - 2003.12.24 21:51:00 -
[37]
*Nods*
Sucks doesnt it 
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Came in like a mess, going out in style
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.12.24 21:57:00 -
[38]
Quote:
I've been with TTI long enough to know that not just anyone can be given director status. We have people dating back to beta who haven't heard of Blaylock. No posts on the TTI forums have been made by a 'Blaylock'.
AFAIK, Ragnar was the only one with Director/CEO status back when he was in power, and only Gunny and MarkA have that status now. I mean, honestly, how could someone that noone has ever heard of get enough roles and grantable hangar access? I find the possibilities to be slim and none. And then for that person to be low enough to steal from the corp. Come on...
This is just sickening. I mean, merry ******* christmas, eh?
Wesley
/emotelooks at your biomass cartel corporation notifier and then above at your post.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Tigge91862
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Posted - 2003.12.24 22:13:00 -
[39]
lol, yeah, I know.
We were friends back in the Venal conflict and I wanted to join for the PvP. But I am still good friends with the people in TTI. 
Wesley
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.12.24 22:25:00 -
[40]
"The Blaylock guy leaves aswell and the the char is deleted and a new Blaylock is made, showing no sings of being in TTI."
... Doesn't every character have their own unique ID, even if they happen to use name which was used by someone else before? So probably won't be as hard to track down as the thief might think...
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ArcticWolf
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Posted - 2003.12.24 22:32:00 -
[41]
Quote:
... Doesn't every character have their own unique ID, even if they happen to use name which was used by someone else before? So probably won't be as hard to track down as the thief might think...
I think j0sephine is right..but where could they access that information, if he does not have an application to the corp in their corp menu...
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kurg
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Posted - 2003.12.24 22:34:00 -
[42]
Actually Ive always thought the alts were lame, and shouldnt be possible. They are only used for sneakyness that ought to be done by main chars, like chars being spies etc.
We all know that 'some' people constantly log and relog to switch between chars to check if 'prey is coming'..
Its just lame.
even the paranoid has real enemies...
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.12.24 22:36:00 -
[43]
Edited by: j0sephine on 24/12/2003 22:37:49
"but where could they access that information, if he does not have an application to the corp in their corp menu..."
Depending how good the database search tools are... could be just a matter of query for characters deleted after the thievery, that have TTi in their employment history. o.o
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Max Delorian
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Posted - 2003.12.24 22:38:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Max Delorian on 24/12/2003 22:40:31
I'd have to agree with Kurg here, alts used for these purposes suck ass. But you can't get rid of the whole alt system, because some people use and train an alt to do things they can't with their main, not to mention for traders to 'plant' these alts at different regions to check the market across some of eve.
But.. it doesnt matter who done it, why they did it, or how they did it... we got shafted, and that doesnt feel very good right before Christmas
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Came in like a mess, going out in style
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Eldariel
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Posted - 2003.12.24 22:46:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Eldariel on 24/12/2003 22:47:12
Really sorry to hear this news guys ...
Blaylock himself must have been accepted into the corp at one point - follow the rabbit (corp audit logs) and see how deep the hole goes would be my recommendation
At some point you *have* to come across a name you recognise - then you can figure out whether it was a genuine external hack, or an internal job
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.12.24 22:46:00 -
[46]
It's always difficult in these situations to differentiate between a hack and a legitimate and well-planned corporate infiltration.
If someone high up in the ranks decides they are no longer interested in being on "your side" they can take their sweet time planning and carrying out an elaboriate theft.
Seems to me TTI has had a big "Target" on their backs for quite some time, politically and militarily. I would have thought they would have been much more careful with their assets.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Max Delorian
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Posted - 2003.12.24 22:57:00 -
[47]
The thing is though, how careful is 'more careful'? How do you know when you are being careful enough? We had only 4 people that we knew of who had access to these resources, and only 2 of those people had access to both the cash and the goods, and they are the top two people in the organisation. There just comes a point where you shouldnt need to be that careful, where there should be an in-game system of authorisation for transaction requests by the CEO only maybe, I dunno.
If there was a 20 man board of directors all with access to run free then yeah, its our own damned fault for being so stupid, especially at politically sensitive times. But thats not the case. The people in charge took every precaution to make sure, that at least if someone pilfered the cash we still had our resources.
Im not gonna cry anymore about it, im just trying to point out that we werent being slack here, we were treating our assets with as much care, maybe more, than should be required.
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Came in like a mess, going out in style
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.12.24 23:24:00 -
[48]
Max D. said:
There just comes a point where you shouldnt need to be that careful, where there should be an in-game system of authorisation for transaction requests by the CEO only maybe, I dunno.
Hey bro, you're preaching to the converted. I've been "campaigning" since my early days in the game for more methods of preventing and tracking corporate theft.
I think it's ridiculous that in a corporation of multiple hundreds of people the only real way to ensure security is to simply deny everyone access to the goods.
The "Employment History" feature is a step in the right direction, but it's definitely not sufficient in my opinion.
I really hope CCP makes advances in this area as soon as possible. It pains me to think how many players EVE has lost due to being frustrated over corporate thievery. It's just too easy to pull off and too hard to prevent, period.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Fred0
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Posted - 2003.12.24 23:30:00 -
[49]
Oh dear. My condolences. Hope you get it all back.
To create an intricate web like that with alts just goes to show that we need better tools to sort the bad weed out. Until we get that it's hard to treat stuff like this as anything but exploits imho.
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Athre
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Posted - 2003.12.25 00:43:00 -
[50]
Wow! Sorry to hear about this Gunny :( The only recollection I have of Blay is trying to get my stuff out of 4-y at 2 am during the Venal trouble.
Does the green dragon still have personel's records? Any clue what division these two may have been from?
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Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2003.12.25 00:47:00 -
[51]
After talking to GunnyP about this incident this morning I sat around and wondered who would do something like this. There are only four people in TTI who have that type of access and only two (Gunny and Mark) who can both accept members and have access to all the hangars. That kind of narrows it down.
As a former TTI Director I've never heard of "Blaylock" and seriously doubt it was someone with access that wasn't revoked. I was asked to come back into TTI after Ragnars departure and know everyone who was to be a director personally. None of them was named "Blaylock". GunnyP has gone above and beyond in trying to maintain security in TTI.
A couple of things happend here assuming this is a hack and not an inside job.
1) Due to the failure of CCP to institute the hangar wallets everyone has to keep the corp money in one big pot. The way its SUPPOSED to work is a CEO can allocate a certain amount of funds per hangar (look at the permissions youll see its there). Thus someone could take some but not all the money.
2) Applications are erased when someone quits a company. What is needed are logs showing who set permissions and approved applicants. In this case it would not only help to see who accepted this "Rudy" guy (it was this Blaylock) but WHO accepted Blaylock into TTI and when? Gunny said this was a pretty new character? Yet others report seeing him in NVA space for a month? Somethings fishy.
3) GunnyP - Your security logs that you can pull up in the corporate window should show who set permissions for Rudy. Follow them back (months if you have to) and see who approved Blaylock and gave him his CEO powers. I remember going thru the TTI roster ingame before I quit and I never saw anyone named Blaylock.
This type of crime is pathetic. If this is indeed a "hack" and someone infiltrated TTI with a keylogging program I'd like to offer my assistance in making sure they are brought to justice. Despite the nature of this "game" this (if occured) is a CRIME in most countries if you keylogged and hacked into someones computer. As the certain perpetrator of the KIA hack was lucky to NOT find out you can go to jail for stuff like this.
Likewise if this person stole that isk, inside game or not, and sells it on ebay (where 1.2 billion isk could fetch about $2500 US dollars) that is FELONY THEFT in most US states. I do hope your not in the United States. Game mechanics or not as we've read in past news articles internet gamers have sued AND WON civil actions for virtual goods. If you installed a keylogging program on someones computer and stole these items you can go to prison. Personally Im so fed up with jerks in Eve I'd be more then happy to help you prosecute these clowns. Enough is enough.
This isn't the first time TTI has been victimized OOG like this. Back in the early part of the year we were victimized by a hacker who send HUNDREDS of email viruses to TTI executives causing real damage to computers, networks and email systems. This "person" was hunted down by the FBI and Sweeden's National Police Force after he failed to successfully mask his IP address. Sweedish police arrested him and he was sentenced to 17 months in prison. Over a GAME!!!!!!!! He found out computer crime in Sweeden is a serious offense.
Having only three days left on my account (I hate Tech II agents and castor so I quit) I don't have a stake in Eve anymore. I will keep in contact with GunnyP though via email and if you do find out who did this, inside job or not, let me know and I'll "take care of it" like I did the guy in Sweeden. If this indeed was a crime it deserves to be publicized and prosecuted.
Calladen Nimitz  |
Indigo Seqi
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Posted - 2003.12.25 01:02:00 -
[52]
"I will keep in contact with GunnyP though via email and if you do find out who did this, inside job or not, let me know and I'll "take care of it" like I did the guy in Sweeden. If this indeed was a crime it deserves to be publicized and prosecuted."
Eh?
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Atandros
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Posted - 2003.12.25 01:13:00 -
[53]
"I will keep in contact with GunnyP though via email and if you do find out who did this, inside job or not, let me know and I'll "take care of it" like I did the guy in Sweeden. If this indeed was a crime it deserves to be publicized and prosecuted."
Damn, John Ashcroft plays Eve too.
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Falzone
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Posted - 2003.12.25 01:29:00 -
[54]
You won't get the items and isk back from ccp thats my guess as they didn't seem to care about my stuff when i was frauded in RL. But good luck honestly i do hope they give you back the stuff. First time i talked to them about my problem a gm said they would replace, the next one i talked said they wouldn't, then the next one said they would, then ultamitely they said they wouldn't. But good luck
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Aneu Angellus
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Posted - 2003.12.25 01:30:00 -
[55]
Security Precautions:-
1- Allways keep your BP's in a secure container in your corp hanger (or a personal hanger) and only let the required people know the pass for it.
2- ISK can be kept in item form, so you can do the same for ISK as for BP's, keep them in a personal hanger or in a secure container (it is best to keep in item form due to the mix-up between your cash and corp cash).
3- If a director is away without contacting anyone for over 2 weeks, remove his/her access untill he/she comes back with a good explination.
4- Do not be over-ambitious in this game, if you trust someone too quickly it can be your downfall, rememmber, stealing ingame isnt a bannable offence.
5- Keep a good, up to date check of your logs, apoint trusted members as security officers to help you out, this could mean the differance between a corp surviving, or splitting.
Hope this helps on some issues that people need to deal with, it will provide a 95% coverage to all security issues within a corp (5% being legitimate director defection).
Regards
________________
Aneu Angellus
Vengeance Of The Fallen - WolfPack Military Captain
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Techie Zero
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Posted - 2003.12.25 01:33:00 -
[56]
Gunny,
Sorry to hear about this. I hope justice is done.
EVE-I.com~THE Info source |
Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2003.12.25 01:34:00 -
[57]
No John Ashcroft doesn't play Eve. I'm not even a fan of his heavy handed tactics. In this case though if it can be proven this was a hack I believe the guy should be nailed to the outhouse door for all to see.
The extent some people will go in a game to gain an advantage over people or just hurt them (like KIA) is pathetic.
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Jubeli
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Posted - 2003.12.25 02:01:00 -
[58]
Too bad that CCP can even think about not having this as bannable act.. Seriously if someone steals from corp and then delete the character(s) that is behind it then the reason for the theft should be harasment or something..
It is a whole other thing if the guy doesn't delete the character and remove all trace like that, then you can get even/get stuff back..
GunnyP I hope for TTI and for the game that this is solved in your favour.. else who will give ANY new member any access under 3 months?
Merry Xmas to all of you too :) |
Omron
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Posted - 2003.12.25 03:29:00 -
[59]
Very sorry to hear about this TTI. I hope you recover your assets and can move on with the game.
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Sabahl
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Posted - 2003.12.25 03:30:00 -
[60]
If this was an exploit then fine, ban away is what I say.
But if it turns out that this was due to negligence in any form by the directors, tough cookies!
And negligence DOES include not knowing which of your corp members has access to what.
Sorry guys, maybe I am being a bit harsh but I have some VERY strong views on how a corp should be locked down so as to sa***uard the assets, and therefore the time and effort, of the members.
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