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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Annuke
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.19 17:32:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Annuke on 19/04/2007 17:40:40
Doh, I said I was done with this one. This is only my opinion and not whining or anything. Ok...now officially done=)
end edit
Well said Vaethal. I can see it now....galle's with 10 salvage drones picking off wrecks from 100km away while the mission runner is trying to finish mission.
If my missles or whatever went into making that ship a wreck, it should be considered mine.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.04.19 17:37:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Vaethal To all those who say wreckage has no inherent ownership. This is completely false.
To support this I would submit as evidence Tractor Beams.
The issue isn't ownership of the wreck, it's ownership of the salvage.
Originally by: pandymen Seeing as how CCP is such a small company, I find it interesting that at least 5 of there employees seem to have posted in this thread using alts. How could they otherwise know what CCP intended or what the "quoted" concord law is. Please guys, stop with the flamebait, this is ridiculous.
No flamebait on my part. I am going off of memory, some common sense, and a little Occam's Razor in all of my statements. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but there's nothing dishonest about it. (I wish there were a viable way of searching these forums for dev statements more than a few weeks old.)
Originally by: Janu Hull
That wreck has my Corp tag on it, punk
When somebody sucks up all your corp's wrecks into their cargo hold, please let us know.
* * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.19 18:36:00 -
[63]
for mission runners wercks arent worth anything same goes for loot the value is fully in the missio nand bounties we all know that
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Christopher Dalran
Gallente Deadly Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.19 21:51:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 19/04/2007 21:52:20 The wreck belongs to nobody, well except to the person who's ship was destroyed but only if they can get back to it and claim it.
The reason WHY wrecks have a tag on them is because you can ONLY tractor items belonging to you or your corp, so in order to have someone able to tractor it a Tag is needed.
Strictly speaking you dont own the salvage until you salvage it, If you blow up something and then leave the wreck (say to go on the other side of the mission or warp out and come back in a dedicated hauler/salvager) then its completly up for grabs and i dont see why you should be able to do anything about it in High security space.
If you want your salvage then salvage it quickly before someone else comes.
If you want to enforce what YOU think is right low sec or 0.0 is needed. ------------------------------- C.D's Formula for success ------------------------------- Credit Card = Game Time Card Gametime Card = ISK Therefore Credit Card = ISK.
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Jasqar
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Posted - 2007.04.19 22:36:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Callthetruth for mission runners wercks arent worth anything same goes for loot the value is fully in the missio nand bounties we all know that
Umm for "some" mission runners that are farming LP's this may be true, not for all or even most i would bet.
IMO this will be "fixed" soon. Just an easy way to steal loot as it is now with no risk at all. And we know CCP are big on the risk/reward:)
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Andon Cormarr
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Posted - 2007.04.20 13:38:00 -
[66]
All right, in answer to those that want CCP's comments about wrecks, here is are the patch notes mentioning the ability to salvage a wreck without looting. (Under Misc.)
http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?patchlogID=125
I find it interesting that in none of the previous patches, nor the blogs, is criminal flagging mentioned. This would tend to make me believe that CCP is happy with the current results, since they have remained silent on the matter.
The "laws" involving theft in EvE are obviously very convoluted, since a PC has the "right" to shoot any 'rat they come across. And, as previously noted, this right includes transfer of ownership of any functional modules found on the resulting 'rat's wreck. It seems that a statute was enacted that declared wrecks themselves "public property" as an incentive to "keep the spacelanes clear."
It might not be logical, but it does make sense economically. It helps push rig prices down to where CCP feels they are properly balanced...or at least closer to that point. So don't expect this to change.
Besides, if you whine long & loud enough, CCP might decide to use logic for once. In which case, you wouldn't get a criminal flag for someone taking the loot, either. After all, the NPC is the technical owner of the ship/modules/etc...just like YOU are the owner of the wreck created when a pirate pops your ship in a PvP situation.
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Colonel Branigain
E Systems
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Posted - 2007.04.20 13:56:00 -
[67]
Well, I admit I have not read through 3 pages of posts on this, but I wanted to add my two cents. When in high sec my corpmates and I ask before we salvage someones wrecks.. if they are in system. When in low sec we take.
Mostly we salvage in high sec when in cosmos plexes that are spawning like mad and wrecks are filling space like popcorn in a microwave. I really don't see a problem with wrecks havign to be empty before you salvage them.. you take someones loot you deal with the consequences. But also in high sec there is a need to clear wrecks to reduce lag.. especially in the cosmos plexes.
Thats my two cents
Flame away
We hate Mirph, its the kind of personal, deep down loathing that makes you pet your favorite gun and smile. Yes we hate Mirph, the kind of hate that keeps our lasers warm, and our railguns low on ammo |
Shoele Lialos
Gallente Elite United Corp Antigo Dominion
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Posted - 2007.04.20 13:59:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Callthetruth for mission runners wercks arent worth anything same goes for loot the value is fully in the missio nand bounties we all know that
I certainly don't agree with that. I regularly sell upwards of 10MN worth of loot after a mission and then reprocess all of the junk to eventually make more missiles with it.
I salvage and loot with a destroyer, dragging everything around in a 27.5k loot can which I then pick up with an Indy when I'm done.
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Elspeth Vigneron
Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.20 14:14:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Marquis Dean They aren't your wrecks. They belong to the player (or NPC in this case) that owned the ship that created the wreck.
Ninja salvaging is a legitimate profession, and has turned out exactly how CCP wanted.
Deal with it.
YOu work for CCP? Or just throwing out your opinion, hoping it'll stick? Because what I've noticed is a LOT of unintended consequences and LOPSIDED issues, frequenly leading to complaints and nerfing, because CCP OBVIOUSLY didn't think things through. And that's what this smells like.
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Rab
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Posted - 2007.04.20 14:46:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Elspeth Vigneron
YOu work for CCP? Or just throwing out your opinion, hoping it'll stick? Because what I've noticed is a LOT of unintended consequences and LOPSIDED issues, frequenly leading to complaints and nerfing, because CCP OBVIOUSLY didn't think things through. And that's what this smells like.
hope this helps you realise this is intended:
http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=330
Quote: Note that anyone can salvage materials from wrecks, regardless of who destroyed the ship, while looting items from a wreck can get you flagged and a legal target for the owner.
Heres some extra information about what can cause you to be flagged. it does speak of wreck having owners but only as regards looting said wrecks.
http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=95
- In an infinite universe, everything is definite. - |
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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.20 16:55:00 -
[71]
If I were the OP, I might be tempted to keep my big mouth SHUT...work with me on this.
CCP are on record as saying missions in empire space are too rewarding.
Thus, they reduce the reward you can get SAFELY by making your wrecks "fair game"...out in 0.4 and below, no one would be likely to touch your wrecks because you'd blow them up...in Empire, you can't...result, missions less rewarding...
So, WHY should you keep shtum about this...?
Because, for my money, I think there HAS been an oversight on CCP's part...yes, taking stuff from a CAN causes flagging...there's no reason they couldn't code so that taking something from a WRECK didn't...
So shush. You don't know how lucky you are. ---
I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment. |
Tashia Rizti
Starlancers Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2007.04.20 17:16:00 -
[72]
A quick comment that happened to me which is why I think it should be flagged...
Mining in a 0.5 System, I was in a hauler and my friend in a Covertor. 3 rats spawn, and he quickly took them out with the drones. I have a miner and salvager fitted so I start chugging along (only moments after they are destroyed mind you) to salvage. A Intercepter warps in, and quickly MWD/ABs to the 3 wrecks and quickly takes all the salvage. Sure this is rare someone in a fast ship warps in on you, but its still a reality of what can happen. One ship happened to be a Dread ship, and I'm sure it was some decent salvage from that ship.
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WhitePhantom
Gallente Edenists
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Posted - 2007.04.20 18:57:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Tashia Rizti A quick comment that happened to me which is why I think it should be flagged...
Mining in a 0.5 System, I was in a haulr and my friend in a Covertor. 3 rats spawn, and he quickly took them out with the drones. I have a miner and salvager fitted so I start chugging along (only moments after they are destroyed mind you) to salvage. A Intercepter warps in, and quickly MWD/ABs to the 3 wrecks and quickly takes all the salvage. Sure this is rare someone in a fast ship warps in on you, but its still a reality of what can happen. One ship happened to be a Dread ship, and I'm sure it was some decent salvage from that ship.
Why didn't you have a AB with you?
I will repeat my suggestion, if you want wrecks that are basicly yours and yours alone, do missions.
I have never experienced what you trying to describe, and still think you should find a less busy system if its a problem.
You could do level 2 missions and get 20x as much salvage material with little to no effort.
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Han Quattro
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.20 20:51:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Tashia Rizti A quick comment that happened to me which is why I think it should be flagged...
Mining in a 0.5 System, I was in a hauler and my friend in a Covertor. 3 rats spawn, and he quickly took them out with the drones. I have a miner and salvager fitted so I start chugging along (only moments after they are destroyed mind you) to salvage. A Intercepter warps in, and quickly MWD/ABs to the 3 wrecks and quickly takes all the salvage. Sure this is rare someone in a fast ship warps in on you, but its still a reality of what can happen. One ship happened to be a Dread ship, and I'm sure it was some decent salvage from that ship.
OK, a couple of things here. First, chances are good that that Inty pilot got zilch from the Dread ship in the way of salvage. What you get, if anything at all, is totally random. The salvage skills, rigs, etc., only affect how fast you salvage. And it's been my experience, and I salvage everything I can from both missions and ratting, that you tend to get something less than fifty percent of the time, and when you do, chances are it's not much. So unless that Inty pilot stole the loot as well, he probably didn't get much.
Second, I think CCP has wrecks set up the way they are to encourage players to salvage as much as possible. Reason being, the exhorbitantly high prices of Tech I rigs. Who in their right minds would even consider putting a single 15 mill isk Tech I rig on a Tech I frigate or cruiser, or any other cheap ship? Yet these ships have slots for 3 rigs. Totally useless!!! So CCP made all wrecks fair game in the hopes of lowering Tech I rig prices. But I think it's far, far too little. They really need to increase the chance and amount of salvage drops from wrecks. Maybe also lowering the material requirements for Tech I rigs, as well. I think it would be really great to see a higher volume market develop where people really could individualize their Tech I ships. Just one opinion.
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Kai Jyokoroi
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.04.20 22:44:00 -
[75]
Whine whine whine
ANSWER - go to 0.0, then you can shoot him. CCP wants you to go there anyway.
Anyone can easily make 100 mil in 2 or 3 hours via various methods if you're smart, and I can find a bil or more if I'm real lucky and find a hidden plex that drops a bhaalgorn BPC or something. WHy you're complaining about people nicking your crappy t1 loot is beyond me.
_____________ WE ARE THE COLLECTIVE. RESISTANCE IS VOLTAGE OVER CURRENT.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.04.21 00:35:00 -
[76]
salvage is a resource like ore. roleplay happens to connect it to popped ships. since npc don't pop each other (i liked that a lot back when i played xwing/tie-fighter/both), these wrecks have to be "made" by players in missions and belts. salvaging is then nothing short of a form of mining. if just the scrap scan probing would work...
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CPL Nobbes
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Posted - 2007.04.21 07:46:00 -
[77]
Whilst the mini profession of salvager is certainly worthwhile, some of those that practice it need to learn some common manners and decency. When 4 corp mates and myself are actively cleaning up the legion of wrecks left by a lvl 4 blockade we should not have to put up with some rude little so and so acting like a vulture and salvaging wrecks we have not got to yet or we are actually tractoring (it has happened). Criminal flagging for salvaging is probably not the answer. There is probably a list of real and exaggerated software related issues as to why making wrecks last longer and having an ownership countdown on them (my preferred method) is not viable. There really is no solution other than to rely on people to consider others before they act. A pathetic enough hope in RL let alone a MMO.
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WhitePhantom
Gallente Edenists
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Posted - 2007.04.21 19:37:00 -
[78]
Originally by: CPL Nobbes Whilst the mini profession of salvager is certainly worthwhile, some of those that practice it need to learn some common manners and decency. When 4 corp mates and myself are actively cleaning up the legion of wrecks left by a lvl 4 blockade we should not have to put up with some rude little so and so acting like a vulture and salvaging wrecks we have not got to yet or we are actually tractoring (it has happened). Criminal flagging for salvaging is probably not the answer. There is probably a list of real and exaggerated software related issues as to why making wrecks last longer and having an ownership countdown on them (my preferred method) is not viable. There really is no solution other than to rely on people to consider others before they act. A pathetic enough hope in RL let alone a MMO.
Go to another sector, do high security sector level 4 missions, and you won't be bothered with people. So what if somebody gets a couple wrecks, its worth pennies compared to what you got from the kill itself.
Learn to adapt instead of complain.
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Lilan Kahn
Amarr The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.04.21 20:01:00 -
[79]
[17:59:15] Medeoan Nacheradavish > hmmm? [17:59:19] Albian > what ya up to overhtere? [17:59:39] Medeoan Nacheradavish > picking up bins [17:59:49] Albian > my stuff? [17:59:58] Medeoan Nacheradavish > your stuf? [18:00:03] Medeoan Nacheradavish > i dont see your stuf [18:00:12] Albian > you just cruised through my mission [18:00:21] Medeoan Nacheradavish > yes i did [18:00:54] Albian > your not going to loot or salvage my wrecks are you? [18:00:59] Medeoan Nacheradavish > yes i am [18:01:13] Albian > why are you going to try that? [18:01:20] Medeoan Nacheradavish > why not? [18:01:33] Albian > because they are mine and I'm doing it [18:01:44] Medeoan Nacheradavish > Well sucks to be you [18:01:55] Medeoan Nacheradavish > unless you whant to pay me to go away [18:02:25] Albian > when you grab something of mine you'll turn red and I'll just pop you then [18:05:41] Albian > you waiting for me to shoot and have concord show up, keep waiting [18:06:15] Medeoan Nacheradavish > okay if you say so [18:08:32] Albian > ge tt the **** out of here [18:08:37] Medeoan Nacheradavish > make me [18:08:45] Medeoan Nacheradavish > as i said you can pay me [18:08:58] Albian > I'm no ******* macro and your screwing with my income [18:09:04] Medeoan Nacheradavish > too bad [18:09:11] Medeoan Nacheradavish > i am incressing my own incom [18:09:16] Albian > what the hell is your problem? [18:09:30] Medeoan Nacheradavish > i dont know you tell me [18:11:04] Albian > well first normal people woprk their own accounts and don't rely on other people efforts and steaql [18:11:18] Medeoan Nacheradavish > Welcom to eve [18:11:28] Albian > welcome to retardation [18:11:47] Albian > your too damn lazy to do your own work [18:12:08] Medeoan Nacheradavish > lucky i have you to do my work then [18:14:05] Albian > what do you want to leave3 me alone then? [18:14:27] Medeoan Nacheradavish > i dont know what is it worth to you? [18:14:45] Albian > I don't know I never ransom people [18:15:11] Medeoan Nacheradavish > Well what is it worth to you that i dont tag along and salvage the rest of your misssion [18:15:37] Albian > I DON'T KNOW I DON't RASNSOM People [18:16:06] Medeoan Nacheradavish > Well you see hon i normaly only ransom ships [18:16:16] Medeoan Nacheradavish > you gotta help me out a bit here [18:16:39] Albian > WHAT DO YOU WANT 20 MILLIOON? [18:16:47] Medeoan Nacheradavish > Sure [18:17:03] Albian > there [18:17:10] Medeoan Nacheradavish > tootels [18:17:20] Albian > thank you !!! [18:18:01] Albian > I appreciate it [18:18:16] Medeoan Nacheradavish > your welcom [18:18:25] Albian > fly safe [18:18:29] Medeoan Nacheradavish > Same
no thanks i like wreaks to stay the way it is now.
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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Divideby0
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.21 21:21:00 -
[80]
I'm curious who was flying what in that discussion.
In general it is good etiquette to ask first if you want to loot a wreck. I do it, and I appreciate when others do it. Then again, it would be nice if PvPers would ask before they pod you. But I digress...
In general, I think the existing system is fine: the wreck semi-belongs to the one who made the wreck in terms of looting, destroying and tractor beaming. After all, they did all the work, why should it be made easy to steal it from them?
Another possible solution is to add a "Claim" function or skill where you officially lay a CONCORD-sanctioned claim to an object/wreck/drone/asteroid over a certain size...and you can only do it in empire space. You can claim "X" objects for a period of time. Its not like Eve needs more skills though.
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.21 21:24:00 -
[81]
lol ive got quite a few chatlogs myself stil its amusing most of the time i just smile cause if u talk back they explode with carebear venom
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Lilan Kahn
Amarr The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.04.21 21:38:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Divideby0 I'm curious who was flying what in that discussion.
In general it is good etiquette to ask first if you want to loot a wreck. I do it, and I appreciate when others do it. Then again, it would be nice if PvPers would ask before they pod you. But I digress...
In general, I think the existing system is fine: the wreck semi-belongs to the one who made the wreck in terms of looting, destroying and tractor beaming. After all, they did all the work, why should it be made easy to steal it from them?
Another possible solution is to add a "Claim" function or skill where you officially lay a CONCORD-sanctioned claim to an object/wreck/drone/asteroid over a certain size...and you can only do it in empire space. You can claim "X" objects for a period of time. Its not like Eve needs more skills though.
Angry guy raven
the "grifer" destroyer
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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Talkie Toaster
Amarr Knights of the Industrial Order
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Posted - 2007.04.22 11:30:00 -
[83]
if they wanted more people to salvage then why didnt the introduce a better salvage module or tractor module. say it salvages anything within 2km or something and you just leave it running like a booster. on the bigger missions its still only useful if you are running a salvaging ship anyway as your fighter probably cant take all the loot and salvage on the mission in its hold.
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Tommy Vercetti
Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.22 16:16:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Kai Jyokoroi WHy you're complaining about people nicking your crappy t1 loot is beyond me.
QFT.
Besides, whats the point? 95% of the mission runners probably won't shoot back anyway.
Originally by: Pestillence
It's a game where we fly around in eggs with tubes up our arses. If I want reality I'll go outside.
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FlailofFury
Slanik Corp
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Posted - 2007.04.22 20:14:00 -
[85]
Edited by: FlailofFury on 22/04/2007 20:12:30
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Jove Centauri
Freelance Rising
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Posted - 2007.04.24 00:44:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Humwawa How can it be possible that people can get away with that? Now before anyone tells me go to low sec - this is NOT what its about!
If someone scans me in highsec during a mission and then salvages my wrecks - so be it. BUT If I cant attack him without getting concorded this is plain stupid and has NOTHING to do with pvp-orientated. In my eyes this is only exploiting. CCP PLEASE fix ASAP
Wow, I had no idea this was possible. But thank you for enlightening me with this thread. I do my missions in lowsec, so I never had this problem. But seriously, all this time I wasted doing level 4s to get decent salvage I can now just send my industrial alt to highsec, leech off the carebears and build rigs 10x faster. Not bad.
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Trinity Faetal
Gallente 0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.04.24 10:05:00 -
[87]
how do these ninjasalvagedudes find ur mission sites ? i have been doing missions in high sec and all my missions are in deadspace. --
Bakka! bakka! bakka! bakka! bakka! bakka! bakka! |
Jove Centauri
Freelance Rising
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Posted - 2007.04.24 12:34:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Trinity Faetal how do these ninjasalvagedudes find ur mission sites ? i have been doing missions in high sec and all my missions are in deadspace.
Scan probing with good skills is not hard, if you use drones it is rather easy. Spaceships in deadspace have 1/100 the normal signal strength... the loophole.... drones which usually stay within 50km of you have normal signal strength.
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Carcusian
Knights of the Silver Dawn
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Posted - 2007.04.24 14:36:00 -
[89]
ccp wants people to use eve as an MMO, not solo missions missions round the clock. maybe they could have implemented wrecks differently, but they want pressure to be on you to bring a salvage buddy, etc etc..
choices: 1) bring a salvaging buddy. 2) don't use drones. sucks if ur a drone ship. helps minimize ur signature to probes in deadpsace. if ur in a location, hope for the best. 3) my favroite option: start targetting and blowing up all your wrecks. you lose salavage and loot, but you win the contest of wills.
I do find it odd that the wreck belongs to everyone, but only you can shott it without concord intervention. but like i said, ccp is trying to implement an idea to force non-solo player mission running, and as we all know they dont always get it perfect.
what am i saying? its a flawlessly executed game model.
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.24 15:15:00 -
[90]
the part forcing them to bring a salvage buddy is a good one. It is multiplayer and if they are going to leave em behind ill get in there and ninja salvage + ninja loot for a profit
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