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Commander OTG
Caldari Logistic Exposium Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.06 08:46:00 -
[271]
As far as the skills go...I have every possible skill relating to salvaging, hacking, cloaking and probing maxxed to level 5. I run tech2 rigs on my slvage ships and have a head full of the best implants offered...so I have done my skilling time...yet i ask the missioners before i take the "free" wrecks. and I do not distract them in their deadspace while they are fighting the rats.
I may have not made my point clearly. Thieves may not be the right title. I ws merely referring to those that are rude and dont accept the fact that those wrecks would not be there if it wasn't for the previous work by the mission runner.
Originally by: GM Faolchu It is within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission and steal the loot/salvage.
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Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.06 10:03:00 -
[272]
Originally by: Commander OTG I may have not made my point clearly. Thieves may not be the right title. I ws merely referring to those that are rude and dont accept the fact that those wrecks would not be there if it wasn't for the previous work by the mission runner.
It might be rude for people to take wrecks without asking, but thats about all. The mission runner has already been recompensed for their "work" (used in the loosest possible sense) in the form of ISK for NPC bounties, LPs and mission rewards. As a mission runner, I resent the position taken by others that wrecks are somehow part of the overall reward for running missions. They are not, they are a byproduct.
Wrecks are a reward for whoever salvages them first.
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Doc Imp
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Posted - 2008.02.06 11:25:00 -
[273]
This current mechanic is idiotic. I've got these asshats in my mission within moments of starting them sometimes, looking to salvage. No asking, no are you salvaging that? They go right for the bs wrecks, even had one hug my salvage ship and just go after them as I brought them in. There's no risk/reward equation here, I can't do anything but shoot the wreck in question and that's crap. I run an alt to salvage so it's not like these guys are finding my abandoned wrecks, they're coming in with concord protection and stealing income generating items from me and there is absolutely nothing I can do to discourage the act besides destroying the wrecks.
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Righteous Deeds
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Posted - 2008.02.06 11:37:00 -
[274]
Edited by: Righteous Deeds on 06/02/2008 11:37:44
Originally by: Sendraks
It might be rude for people to take wrecks without asking, but thats about all. The mission runner has already been recompensed for their "work" (used in the loosest possible sense) in the form of ISK for NPC bounties, LPs and mission rewards. As a mission runner, I resent the position taken by others that wrecks are somehow part of the overall reward for running missions. They are not, they are a byproduct.
Wrecks are a reward for whoever salvages them first.
What is the salvager being recompensed for? All the same things the mission runner has invested EXCEPT taking the time and risk to create the wreck.
There really isn't a logical way to justify this mechanic other than "CCP wants it this way." And that argument doesn't exactly mean it makes any sense whatever.
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Sigul Siento
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Posted - 2008.02.06 11:43:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Commander OTG
...yet i ask the missioners before i take the "free" wrecks. and I do not distract them in their deadspace while they are fighting the rats.
Ah, well, what's rude is of course subjective. But a missioner that leave the wrecks behind with or without the intention of coming back later have effectively abandoned them as I see it, and as such I do not consider it rude to sift through them looking for salvage.
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Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.06 11:47:00 -
[276]
Originally by: Righteous Deeds What is the salvager being recompensed for?
Cost of probes. Time spent finding the wrecks. Time spent salvaging the wrecks.
Originally by: Righteous Deeds All the same things the mission runner has invested EXCEPT taking the time and risk to create the wreck.
The mission runners recompense for the mission comes in the form of the reward, the LPs and the NPC bounties. That is the way it has always been. Wrecks are a by-product of mission running that has been added to the game. It is a presumption on the part of some mission runners, not all, that the wrecks are a defacto part of the mission reward. They are not. There is no reason why they should be.
Originally by: Righteous Deeds There really isn't a logical way to justify this mechanic other than "CCP wants it this way." And that argument doesn't exactly mean it makes any sense whatever.
Not a single argument that makes any sense has been put forward as to why wrecks should be flagged for ownership. Not one. All the arguments in favour of it basically amount to greedy mission runners just wanting additional, guaranteed rewards on top of the hefty sums they already receive.
Furthermore, as has been amply demonstrated umpteen times, there is no need to change the system for salvaging or wrecks when it is so very easy for mission runners to make measures to avoid this happening to them.
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Menyet Ikeemoo
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Posted - 2008.02.06 12:28:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Doc Imp ...they're stealing income generating items from me and there is absolutely nothing I can do to discourage the act besides destroying the wrecks.
If you find a grav site with exploration, then someone else finds it too and he start mining next to you, thats the same, he steals income from you. So make all the roids yours too?
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Kusha'an
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.06 12:35:00 -
[278]
1. The rules for salvaging are not consistent. If the wreck belongs to anybody, then the wreck should be tractor-able after it has been looted. It is not. Either flag the wreck or make it tractorable. Saying you want salvaging as a profession but then forcing salvagers to fly to a wreck defeats the purpose.
2. For those pirates who are bragging about teamwork and "I dare you to attack me, my gangmates will kick your at-symbol dollar-sign dollar-sign, the only response appopriate to that is:
What a waste of time, a gang of battlecruisers organized in attack mode just to get a lousy armor plate? That's hilarious. I hope when you try to salvage my wrecks I've just killed a bunch of serpentis. Jeez you could make more money mining. Good luck with that career. At that rate I'll be billions ahead of you.
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Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.06 12:44:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Kusha'an 1. The rules for salvaging are not consistent. If the wreck belongs to anybody, then the wreck should be tractor-able after it has been looted. It is not. Either flag the wreck or make it tractorable. Saying you want salvaging as a profession but then forcing salvagers to fly to a wreck defeats the purpose.
I agree. Wrecks should be tractorable by anyone.
Originally by: Kusha'an 2. For those pirates who are bragging about teamwork and "I dare you to attack me, my gangmates will kick your at-symbol dollar-sign dollar-sign, the only response appopriate to that is:
What a waste of time, a gang of battlecruisers organized in attack mode just to get a lousy armor plate? That's hilarious. I hope when you try to salvage my wrecks I've just killed a bunch of serpentis. Jeez you could make more money mining. Good luck with that career. At that rate I'll be billions ahead of you.
While I agree with your sentiment, remember that eve is a game played for fun and somepeople get pleasure out of such peversity.
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Bhodistafa
Gallente Amen Anera
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Posted - 2008.02.06 13:29:00 -
[280]
Can we let this die already? Yeah I know I've bumped it but please!!
Wrecks are NOT your property after you've created them merely the loot in them. Anyone can salavage the components from them and without getting aggro'd.
If it bothers you that much then shoot or salvage your wrecks as you go. Failing that probe out someone else's mission site and join in by salavging their wrecks!
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Koppite
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Posted - 2008.02.06 13:40:00 -
[281]
tough luck. iskies to be made and lots of isk in selling rigs
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Dromidas Shadowmoon
Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.02.06 17:25:00 -
[282]
Salvaging other peoples wrecks should flag you as thief, I agree. Not that I've had any problems myself, but it's just stupid that they can essentially loot your wreck without any sort of repercussion. (Often the salvage on a BS is 10x the value of the loot) _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it. |
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.06 18:23:00 -
[283]
Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Salvaging other peoples wrecks should flag you as thief, I agree.
Why? Give one good reason?
Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Not that I've had any problems myself, but it's just stupid that they can essentially loot your wreck without any sort of repercussion. (Often the salvage on a BS is 10x the value of the loot)
So what? Just because it is more expensive is no reason to flag it. It is space flotsam, it has been stated numerous times why wrecks are not flagged.
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Zao Jin
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Posted - 2008.02.07 00:45:00 -
[284]
Originally by: Humwawa *sigh* Then something is not logic and/or wrong.
I killed the ship - The items in the ship belong to me but the wreck doesnt??? Wheres the logic in that?
This person who is salvaging my (not my whatever wreck) is using highsec as protection (he is griefing me) If I cannot legitamtly fight a griefer it turns into harrasment...
Griefing and ninja salvaging aren't the same thing.
Although you could grief particularly anal mission runners via ninja salvaging. Say, if he gets three of his mates to 24/7 watch and scan you, take your stuff while you're not looking... EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU RUN A MISSION.
Really though, griefing is consistently denying a person a portion of the game experience, "for the lulz."
Say, a gang of 5 guys who see this whiny post and all get in gank-fitted Caracals, scan you down and suicide gank you over and over and over and over...
Now that's griefing. :)
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Zao Jin
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Posted - 2008.02.07 00:51:00 -
[285]
Originally by: Doc Imp This current mechanic is idiotic. I've got these asshats in my mission within moments of starting them sometimes, looking to salvage. No asking, no are you salvaging that? They go right for the bs wrecks, even had one hug my salvage ship and just go after them as I brought them in. There's no risk/reward equation here, I can't do anything but shoot the wreck in question and that's crap. I run an alt to salvage so it's not like these guys are finding my abandoned wrecks, they're coming in with concord protection and stealing income generating items from me and there is absolutely nothing I can do to discourage the act besides destroying the wrecks.
It is funny to watch local when you start blowing the wrecks up though. I like the guy who asks first. I don't actually salvage my missions (I get better ISK per hour just going on and blowing up the next bunch o rats) so if you ask, I'll always say "sure, whatever... wait until I leave." If you come in while I'm doing the mission, I will waste my time blowing up wrecks to ensure you've wasted yours. It works as a great demotivator.
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Zao Jin
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Posted - 2008.02.07 00:54:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Righteous Deeds Edited by: Righteous Deeds on 06/02/2008 11:37:44
What is the salvager being recompensed for? All the same things the mission runner has invested EXCEPT taking the time and risk to create the wreck.
There really isn't a logical way to justify this mechanic other than "CCP wants it this way." And that argument doesn't exactly mean it makes any sense whatever.
There's a quote from CCP Wrangler going around in some people's sigs. I suggest reviewing it.
Then start applying some ingenuity.
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Zao Jin
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Posted - 2008.02.07 00:58:00 -
[287]
Originally by: Kusha'an
2. For those pirates who are bragging about teamwork and "I dare you to attack me, my gangmates will kick your at-symbol dollar-sign dollar-sign, the only response appopriate to that is:
What a waste of time, a gang of battlecruisers organized in attack mode just to get a lousy armor plate? That's hilarious. I hope when you try to salvage my wrecks I've just killed a bunch of serpentis. Jeez you could make more money mining. Good luck with that career. At that rate I'll be billions ahead of you.
I would hope those pirates aren't doing it for the plate, they're doing it hoping you'll attack. People do really dumb things when they're made to feel powerless. :)
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Righteous Deeds
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Posted - 2008.02.07 01:54:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Zao Jin
There's a quote from CCP Wrangler going around in some people's sigs. I suggest reviewing it.
Then start applying some ingenuity.
Thanks for the suggestion. Next.
You seem to be missing the salient point. Yes, mission-runners can limit the impact of salvagers...typically at some cost to themselves, either in time, inferior agents, or riskier locations. The proper response to a poor game mechanic is to fix it, not just live with it. This is also why we all make our cases in these forums. Rumor has it CCP frequently changes their minds on what their "intentional mechanics" are. There's these things called patches, see, and CCP is changing the rules all the time.
Now start applying some logic. Expound, if you would, on the practical difference between wrecks and cans, and perhaps note all the other mechanics in the game allowing one player to exploit another without accepting any real risk.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.02.07 03:43:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Righteous Deeds
Now start applying some logic. Expound, if you would, on the practical difference between wrecks and cans...
I'm not sure how that's relevant, unless the best point you can come up with is "consistency in all things". I find that argument not very persuasive, but even if you think it's critical, look at the behavior of player wrecks and then tell me which mechanic here is the inconsistency. Would you be happy if flagging were removed from jetcans and the loot in npc wrecks? That would make things nice and tidy, if that's truly what floats your boat.
Quote: ... and perhaps note all the other mechanics in the game allowing one player to exploit another without accepting any real risk.
Let's see...scamming, corp theft, ganking, trading...perhaps more? Though I think your use of the word risk is rather limited or misguided. Risk in this game isn't just about the risk of getting your ship blown up. Among other things, it's just as much about the risk of putting in time and energy and getting little or nothing on any given try, especially due to the efforts of other players. That's a kind of risk common to every profession in EVE I can think of, including ninja-salvaging, with the exception of one: hisec mission running.
The salvaging system adds at least a partial element of that even to missions. I think -that- kind of consistency is good, though I understand how it must be a hard adjustment for many to make. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
FlameGlow
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Posted - 2008.02.07 07:45:00 -
[290]
Although I don't care about all those whines I think there should be some nerf against ninja-salvagers. When a noob can pay his timecodes with isk right from the trial by salvaging in a mission hub it certainly indicates something is wrong there.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:31:00 -
[291]
Originally by: FlameGlow Although I don't care about all those whines I think there should be some nerf against ninja-salvagers. When a noob can pay his timecodes with isk right from the trial by salvaging in a mission hub it certainly indicates something is wrong there.
Agreed that there is something wrong. Disagreed that it is a problem with salvagers. Finding a mission runner through exploration is pretty hard, UNLESS you do it in a busy mission node where the sheer number of mission runners favor you. In the same way, a noob can pay his timecodes right from trial by speculating on jita market. Does that mean that the market is broken too? Actually it means that there is something wrong, agreed, but what is wrong are the players. If everybody clusters in motsu or other busy mission nodes it's not the noob player's fault. If everybody buys stuff in jita at 30% more than the price they might pay if they planned ahead, it's not the noob player's fault either. He is merely reaping rewards from stuff that the more experienced players, by their actions not their words, are considering non-relevant issues.
The point is that if THAT becomes a real concern, the involved PLAYERS will start to take corrective actions, because they have the chance to solve it. Exactly like on the market, if the players do not take action to solve their problems, that means that the problem is not really that important.
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Sigul Siento
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:49:00 -
[292]
Originally by: FlameGlow Although I don't care about all those whines I think there should be some nerf against ninja-salvagers. When a noob can pay his timecodes with isk right from the trial by salvaging in a mission hub it certainly indicates something is wrong there.
So you say nerf every feature that enables a new but dedicated character (a NEW character isn't necessarily played by a noob) to make "too much" ISK? I'm not convinced of the wisdom of such a policy, to be honest. Where would you draw the line? 50m/month? Because, *obviously*, if this amount of ISK/month is wrong for salvagers, it would be wrong for any other endavour. Corp thieving would definitively have to go. Being a clever trader is right out. Missions would have to have their rewards nerfed significantly. How much can you theoretically make per month in mining in a mining cruiser? Bet it's enough to pay for a months play... NERF!
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FlameGlow
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Posted - 2008.02.07 11:47:00 -
[293]
Originally by: Sigul Siento
Originally by: FlameGlow Although I don't care about all those whines I think there should be some nerf against ninja-salvagers. When a noob can pay his timecodes with isk right from the trial by salvaging in a mission hub it certainly indicates something is wrong there.
So you say nerf every feature that enables a new but dedicated character (a NEW character isn't necessarily played by a noob) to make "too much" ISK? I'm not convinced of the wisdom of such a policy, to be honest. Where would you draw the line? 50m/month? Because, *obviously*, if this amount of ISK/month is wrong for salvagers, it would be wrong for any other endavour. Corp thieving would definitively have to go. Being a clever trader is right out. Missions would have to have their rewards nerfed significantly. How much can you theoretically make per month in mining in a mining cruiser? Bet it's enough to pay for a months play... NERF!
It's not about making too much isk, it's making isk with too little effort ;) With proper backround selected at char creation you could start collecting wrecks on 5th day of trial(some even say on 3rd). Now tell me, when a *clever trader* can get enough cash(skills are probably sufficient from background) to bring in enough profits in one month to buy a GTC? Corp thieving on trial? megaLOL, corp like that deservs being stolen from Missions?Hmm, maybe it's possible with lvl 3 missions all day and night long to get a gtc in 14 days, but wait, trials can't train battlecruisers so no lvl 3. Mining, I never was much into it, but the profit is pathetic if you use a cruiser in hisec. Probably won't dig enough unless you run macro 23/7(and what do you know, you can get banned for that)
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Sigul Siento
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Posted - 2008.02.07 12:04:00 -
[294]
Originally by: FlameGlow It's not about making too much isk, it's making isk with too little effort ;)
Takes more effort than missions and mining.
Originally by: FlameGlow With proper backround selected at char creation you could start collecting wrecks on 5th day of trial(some even say on 3rd). Now tell me, when a *clever trader* can get enough cash(skills are probably sufficient from background) to bring in enough profits in one month to buy a GTC?
Buy low, sell high? I am of course referring to someone who are dedicated and spend a lot of time doing the relvant research.
Originally by: FlameGlow Corp thieving on trial? megaLOL, corp like that deservs being stolen from Missions?Hmm, maybe it's possible with lvl 3 missions all day and night long to get a gtc in 14 days, but wait, trials can't train battlecruisers so no lvl 3.
Ah, I was thinking on the basis of keeping your account sustained, while you meant having the money ready during the trial. So ok, not quite as easy as I made out. Though the possiblity is there, in theory. Yes it would involve quite a bit of time spent, but so would the salvaging. You make it out to be that you can just fly around and pick up battleship wrecks at will, which doesn't seem entirely fair. But sure, if you have a lucky trial and keep finding lots of abandoend wreckage sites, you'll make a lot. Just as you would if you get lucky and some corp invites you in with wide acces whereupon you clean their hangars. The common point in those two examples is that other people let you make all that ISK through not caring or just being stupid.
Originally by: FlameGlow
Mining, I never was much into it, but the profit is pathetic if you use a cruiser in hisec. Probably won't dig enough unless you run macro 23/7(and what do you know, you can get banned for that)
In my nooby attempts at mining with a prospector alt I was able to get a few mill of ore every few hours. 8 hours a day for 14 days should get you enough to pay for 30 days.
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Mdram
Caldari Crimson Rain Corp
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Posted - 2008.02.07 13:50:00 -
[295]
i noticed yesterday when i was in a mission an 8day old player found me and came int o salvage my wrecks.
so its wither not that hard or hes using an alt after scanning.
kill rights would be so nice
whats the difference between salvaging a wreck or opening can?
this really should be changed.
When in doubt, reload and fire another clip. |
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.07 13:59:00 -
[296]
Edited by: Sendraks on 07/02/2008 14:00:03
Originally by: Mdram i noticed yesterday when i was in a mission an 8day old player found me and came int o salvage my wrecks.
so its wither not that hard or hes using an alt after scanning.
Or you were in Motsu or some other similar busy system, where any fool can lobe a probe into space and find a mission runner. Finding mission runners in busy systems is not hard. Finding a specific mission runner is much harder.
If mission runners didn't make things easy for salvagers by being too lazy to research other hi-sec agents they could work for, there wouldn't be these whines.
Originally by: Mdram kill rights would be so nice
No it wouldn't. Believe me you don't want this. Every lame ass whining idiot who asked for kill rights on cans quickly found out that it wasn't something they wanted once it was implemented.
Originally by: Mdram whats the difference between salvaging a wreck or opening can?
I don't have to fit salvagers to open a can.
Seriously, there is no difference between unsecured cans and wrecks floating in space. There are both flotsam, free to be picked up by whoever wants them. CCP made a mistake changing the system for cans over a year ago now, which is the cause of the current inconsistency. Hopefully they'll see sense and change cans back to how they used to be.
Originally by: Mdram this really should be changed.
Yes I agree. Can flagging should be removed from the game post haste. I can't imagine for a second that you mean wrecks should be flagged, as you've not cited any reasons why they should be.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.07 14:10:00 -
[297]
Originally by: GM Faolchu This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Excellent. That settles it then. Glad to see CCP taking a reasonable stance on this.
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Daddy Xerox
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Posted - 2008.02.08 02:55:00 -
[298]
*ffft* There's a darn easy fix to salvage thieves.
Salvaging no longer drops a can, all contents go to the salvaging ship (with attendant looting aggro). Then make it so that all wrecks drop something (1 ammo unit or logfile, whatever).
There, fixed.
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Yurii Chan
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Posted - 2008.02.08 02:59:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Daddy Xerox *ffft* There's a darn easy fix to salvage thieves.
Salvaging no longer drops a can, all contents go to the salvaging ship (with attendant looting aggro). Then make it so that all wrecks drop something (1 ammo unit or logfile, whatever).
There, fixed.
already had that. was scrapped. guess CCP figured out current method is better. frankly, it is.
now back to scanning missioners down in motsu
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