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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Humwawa
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Posted - 2007.04.18 08:41:00 -
[1]
How can it be possible that people can get away with that? Now before anyone tells me go to low sec - this is NOT what its about!
If someone scans me in highsec during a mission and then salvages my wrecks - so be it. BUT If I cant attack him without getting concorded this is plain stupid and has NOTHING to do with pvp-orientated. In my eyes this is only exploiting. CCP PLEASE fix ASAP
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timov
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Posted - 2007.04.18 08:54:00 -
[2]
Yes, signed...
before last patch, wracks needed to be empty to salavge and looting another players wrack caused criminal. a good compromise to be able to salvage wracks anotherone doesnt wanted or couldnt without the need of a gang anytime. That was a better way do deal with salvaging and wracks to my mind.
--- ... have fun ;) |
Marquis Dean
Indigo Fade
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Posted - 2007.04.18 09:16:00 -
[3]
They aren't your wrecks. They belong to the player (or NPC in this case) that owned the ship that created the wreck.
Ninja salvaging is a legitimate profession, and has turned out exactly how CCP wanted.
Deal with it.
--- Indigo Fade is now selling jumpclones for superb prices, please see Marquis Dean's bio and/or evemail/convo him ingame.
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Belmarduk
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Posted - 2007.04.18 09:25:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Belmarduk on 18/04/2007 09:22:46
Originally by: Marquis Dean They aren't your wrecks. They belong to the player (or NPC in this case) that owned the ship that created the wreck.
Ninja salvaging is a legitimate profession, and has turned out exactly how CCP wanted.
Deal with it.
Nope I have np that it is possible but I would like to be able to defend myself against this "ninja" without getting concorded.............
The wreck is MINE - I killed the ship - whats the difference between the loot in the wreck and the wrekch itsself hm? This needs to be fixed - This is only stupid edit: I am the original poster - this is my alt
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Marquis Dean
Indigo Fade
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Posted - 2007.04.18 09:29:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Belmarduk The wreck is MINE - I killed the ship
The wreck is not yours. You need to accept that. CCP isn't going to change it.
--- Indigo Fade is now selling jumpclones for superb prices, please see Marquis Dean's bio and/or evemail/convo him ingame.
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Humwawa
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Posted - 2007.04.18 09:45:00 -
[6]
*sigh* Then something is not logic and/or wrong.
I killed the ship - The items in the ship belong to me but the wreck doesnt??? Wheres the logic in that?
This person who is salvaging my (not my whatever wreck) is using highsec as protection (he is griefing me) If I cannot legitamtly fight a griefer it turns into harrasment...
As I said I have np that it is possible (even in highsec that someone can scan me and then loot wrecks which I(!) have only killed 30 sec ago)BUT I cant attack this player?!
This person knows this and does it BECAUSE he/she knows he/she is safe because not criminally flagged.......... This illogical - has NOTHING to do with pvp-orientated game - is an exploit in my eyes !! Everything has risk/reward in eve - and thats how it should be in eve,but this is ZERO risk and only ****es people off.
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timov
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Posted - 2007.04.18 09:50:00 -
[7]
Edited by: timov on 18/04/2007 09:51:43 Edited by: timov on 18/04/2007 09:51:12 Edited by: timov on 18/04/2007 09:48:21
Originally by: Marquis Dean They aren't your wrecks. They belong to the player (or NPC in this case) that owned the ship that created the wreck.
Ninja salvaging is a legitimate profession, and has turned out exactly how CCP wanted.
Deal with it.
... but anyone taking loot of is flagged for me, yes? and case you blow up a wreck of another player not in corp, but in gang in high sec, you gotta tank the concord - as long as possible , yes? But you COULD salvage it - without any trouble. ^^ so without me wanting to start those so much beloved discussion about wreck ownership again - i find it inconsistent at least. Shure, I'd deal with it - but that doenst mean that i have to like it
--- ... have fun ;) |
Kumu Honua
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Posted - 2007.04.18 10:00:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Humwawa *sigh* Then something is not logic and/or wrong.
I killed the ship - The items in the ship belong to me but the wreck doesnt??? Wheres the logic in that?
The items in the ship belong to the person you killed. Do a show info on the wreck next time you kill someone. Your face is nowhere to be seen, but the owner of the destroyed ship is there.
It's HIS wreck.
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Darqion Zenix
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Posted - 2007.04.18 10:01:00 -
[9]
no use brownnosing ccp by acting all smart.. a NPC dont own anything, and i am pretty sure i killed the dude that now resides in the pile of scrapmetal floating in space. pretty hard to own something when you are dead.
so now.. if the items are mine, that means killing that ship did something to claim ownership of said items, but what would stop me from clasifying the salvage (which is nothing more then another loot of stuff that wasnt simply in the cargo bay) as nothing more then extra loot ? and therefor concider it my own.
thinking otherwise is.. weird at best. theres enough easymode "pirating" in this game, and when people come in and just take a ton of your earnings(just like ore thieving ?) without being able to shoot them, its broken nothing more
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Humwawa
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Posted - 2007.04.18 10:10:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Darqion Zenix no use brownnosing ccp by acting all smart.. a NPC dont own anything, and i am pretty sure i killed the dude that now resides in the pile of scrapmetal floating in space. pretty hard to own something when you are dead.
so now.. if the items are mine, that means killing that ship did something to claim ownership of said items, but what would stop me from clasifying the salvage (which is nothing more then another loot of stuff that wasnt simply in the cargo bay) as nothing more then extra loot ? and therefor concider it my own.
thinking otherwise is.. weird at best. theres enough easymode "pirating" in this game, and when people come in and just take a ton of your earnings(just like ore thieving ?) without being able to shoot them, its broken nothing more
This guy is smart - listen to him - 100% my opinion ;) This is exactly what I have been trying to say !!!
Something IS BROKEN
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SoldierOfJustice
Kurai-Komichi Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.18 10:48:00 -
[11]
I dont do many missions in highsec. But its really simple: kill a rat, right click the wreck, check info. If it shows the killer's picture on it then it belongs to the killer. In that case if anybody salvages it then that person should be flagged. The salvager should be flagged UNLESS CCP did chose the opposit on purpose and they need to tell ppl that ;).
I've heard many say CCP want ppl to pvp more than carebearing. If the salvager gets flagged then its an indirect way to make ppl go pvp a little more :D.
It should also be mentioned that if ppl get flagged after salvaging other's wrecks then there will be fewer rigs on market.
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Vasiliyan
Gallente Ordnace Research and Development
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Posted - 2007.04.18 11:25:00 -
[12]
Originally by: SoldierOfJustice
It should also be mentioned that if ppl get flagged after salvaging other's wrecks then there will be fewer rigs on market.
Which would be really bad. They're expensive enough as it is. --------- Currently offering high-sec POS standings service for 0.5 systems within the Gallente Federation. Evemail me for details. |
Darqion Zenix
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Posted - 2007.04.18 11:42:00 -
[13]
make wrecks last longer, and have a timer on them after which they become salvagable by anyone
enabling non-counterable thiefing would sooner maker me shoot my own wrecks then waiting for some nub comming in and taking it all
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Rabbitual Ferrier
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Posted - 2007.04.18 11:51:00 -
[14]
If someone salvages an NPC wreck, he flashes red for you, same as a can rob. Also if they rob your own wreck, then they activate your right to respond.
Sounds fair enough.... and it makes ratting and mining in lower high sec more fun.
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Humwawa
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Posted - 2007.04.18 14:28:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Rabbitual Ferrier If someone salvages an NPC wreck, he flashes red for you, same as a can rob. Also if they rob your own wreck, then they activate your right to respond.
Sounds fair enough.... and it makes ratting and mining in lower high sec more fun.
No - thats the problem - ONLY when someone takes something out of the can.If you salvage the wreck (which wasnt possible before last patch if something was in the wreck) you can salvage the wreck and get the salvage - the wreck turns into a can. AND you are NOT flagged even if its not your wreck. I got concorded when I tried to retaliate....
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Hellspawn01
Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.18 15:03:00 -
[16]
Looting and salvaging is about the same. Thats why I dont understand that you get only flagged as a thief for looting other ppls wrecks, not for salvaging.
Ship lovers click here |
Humwawa
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Posted - 2007.04.18 16:42:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Hellspawn01 Looting and salvaging is about the same. Thats why I dont understand that you get only flagged as a thief for looting other ppls wrecks, not for salvaging.
Yes it looks like that was overlooked when introducing the last patch - Hopefully a dev is reading this thread and will do something about it.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.04.18 16:56:00 -
[18]
It wasn't "overlooked", it was an intentional device to create a new profession.
In the meantime, if you really want to shoot salvagers, go to LoSec. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:11:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Humwawa *sigh* Then something is not logic and/or wrong.
I killed the ship - The items in the ship belong to me but the wreck doesnt??? Wheres the logic in that?
This person who is salvaging my (not my whatever wreck) is using highsec as protection (he is griefing me) If I cannot legitamtly fight a griefer it turns into harrasment...
As I said I have np that it is possible (even in highsec that someone can scan me and then loot wrecks which I(!) have only killed 30 sec ago)BUT I cant attack this player?!
This person knows this and does it BECAUSE he/she knows he/she is safe because not criminally flagged.......... This illogical - has NOTHING to do with pvp-orientated game - is an exploit in my eyes !! Everything has risk/reward in eve - and thats how it should be in eve,but this is ZERO risk and only ****es people off.
youer use of the word grief is wrong. Join a corp ( u havent) and get some assistance have someone come in thats friendly to u and salvage-loot youre wrecks. I know because i scan down and salvage-loot other ppls missions for a profitable living yes i do loose ships when ppl blow me up and im quite ok to have that element in the game they blow me up due to my own greed-slow reaction then so be it
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:16:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske It wasn't "overlooked", it was an intentional device to create a new profession.
In the meantime, if you really want to shoot salvagers, go to LoSec.
it wsa intentional as i said no mention made of im taking acorp buddy out to help me salvage ( so youre just i want to use a approrpiate word - not taking advantage of multiplayer)
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Humwawa
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:35:00 -
[21]
This is going in circles now...
I am NOT saying that salvaging other peoples wrecks should be forbidden !!!!!!! If people like that play-style - so be it
BUT for Heavens Sake I should be aloud to retaliate then or not???
I am in a corp and an alliance - all corp mates I have talked to about it have the same opinion - we WILL declare war on this guy at a time of our convinience.
But this is not the point.... Why dont me make ALL cans lootable without flagging??
I see NO difference in a can and a wreck. Looting cans gives you a timer but salvaging wrecks doesnt?? hmmm
Yes sure if I am ratting in 0,0 I can take care of this person immediatley, but in empire he IS being protected by concord so that I cant do anything about it even though he is stealing from me.Where the hell is the logic there????
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:37:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Humwawa This is going in circles now...
I am NOT saying that salvaging other peoples wrecks should be forbidden !!!!!!! If people like that play-style - so be it
BUT for Heavens Sake I should be aloud to retaliate then or not???
I am in a corp and an alliance - all corp mates I have talked to about it have the same opinion - we WILL declare war on this guy at a time of our convinience.
But this is not the point.... Why dont me make ALL cans lootable without flagging??
I see NO difference in a can and a wreck. Looting cans gives you a timer but salvaging wrecks doesnt?? hmmm
Yes sure if I am ratting in 0,0 I can take care of this person immediatley, but in empire he IS being protected by concord so that I cant do anything about it even though he is stealing from me.Where the hell is the logic there????
wrong salvage is a ship wreck that is well a wreck, salvagign is module orientated meaning anyone can do it. Loot on the other hand is worth more u should stop whining and making a fool of youreself. Loot u get flagged for its good the way it is
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Humwawa
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:46:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Callthetruth Loot u get flagged for its good the way it is
Ok I give up - no point in discussing this anymore
Then so be it - let the empire-pirates loot other peoples stuff under concord - protection.
Lets encourage high-sec protected griefing without possibility to retaliate (pvp-game...)
Bye
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Marquis Dean
Indigo Fade
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:50:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Humwawa
Originally by: Callthetruth Loot u get flagged for its good the way it is
Ok I give up - no point in discussing this anymore
Then so be it - let the empire-pirates loot other peoples stuff under concord - protection.
Lets encourage high-sec protected griefing without possibility to retaliate (pvp-game...)
Bye
That's the game you're playing. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it needs to change. You don't like it: stop playing.
--- Indigo Fade is now selling jumpclones for superb prices, please see Marquis Dean's bio and/or evemail/convo him ingame.
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:05:00 -
[25]
ill piont to wow where theres no risk just a boring NPC grind
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Drethon
Gallente Knights Hospitalier
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:31:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Callthetruth wrong salvage is a ship wreck that is well a wreck, salvagign is module orientated meaning anyone can do it. Loot on the other hand is worth more u should stop whining and making a fool of youreself. Loot u get flagged for its good the way it is
Pardon me if I'm wrong here, I never salvage without looting first, but doesn't salvaging destroy the container as well, meaning that salvaging is no different than destroying a jet can?
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:38:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Drethon
Originally by: Callthetruth wrong salvage is a ship wreck that is well a wreck, salvagign is module orientated meaning anyone can do it. Loot on the other hand is worth more u should stop whining and making a fool of youreself. Loot u get flagged for its good the way it is
Pardon me if I'm wrong here, I never salvage without looting first, but doesn't salvaging destroy the container as well, meaning that salvaging is no different than destroying a jet can?
No, currently if there's loot in the wreck it's ejected in a regular can when salvaged. Before that, wrecks couldn't be salvaged at all as long as there was still loot in them.
(Yet more evidence that everything about loot vs. salvage is intentional.) * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:41:00 -
[28]
Simply:
Salvage and rig prices were WAY higher than CCP wanted. One of the reasons was because many mission runners felt it wasn't worth their time to salvage, hence huge amounts of parts were just being left there.
CCP wanted those parts on the market, they were balancing their drops based on the fact that the salvage was available. So they brought in the ability to salvage without looting in order to get prices down.
Blame all those players that weren't salvaging, had they been doing it the mechanics would not have been altered. <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2
PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base |
Humwawa
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:50:00 -
[29]
@ Marquise Dean -
Yep those are my options...
@ Callthetruth -
Thats what I am talking about - player A steals from Player B wth no risk... and I come from UO... who are celebrating their 10th year anniversary (me my 6th year anni...) - dont let me even get started about wow... ;) I started eve a year ago and have sofar liked the 360¦ game-style with on the whole fairly mature players
@ Drethon Since last patch it is possible to salvage FIRST - when salvaged the wreck changes into a can. Loot other players can - flagged Loot other players wreck but not can - not flagged
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:52:00 -
[30]
Anaalys is completely right. Wreakage having no inherent ownership is one of the keys to making rigs more module-like in price, like intended.
* * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:57:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Humwawa
Thats what I am talking about - player A steals from Player B wth no risk...
It's not stealing because it's not yours to begin with. The key here isn't "risk" it's "effort". For their time and effort they get the salvage, for yours you get the loot, bounties, standings, mission rewards *and* the salvage if you really want it badly enough.
Risk has little to do with it in high sec missions, for them or you. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Humwawa
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:59:00 -
[32]
If wreckage has no ownership why does my avatar show up on the wreck as if it belonged to me like a can or whatever - just curious
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.04.18 19:07:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 18/04/2007 19:04:10
Originally by: Humwawa If wreckage has no ownership why does my avatar show up on the wreck as if it belonged to me like a can or whatever - just curious
I don't actually know, and I doubt you're actually curious, but my guess is it's either a code limitation (because the wreck contains both your stuff and just plain stuff); or that it's to protect you from people just shooting your wrecks and destroying everything to mess with you; or that it's an oversight.
Feel free to bug report it if it bothers you. :) * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.18 19:12:00 -
[34]
its the shooting it bit that CCP were interested in
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Annuke
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.18 19:35:00 -
[35]
signed...If the wreck has your name on it, you should get kill rights if someone not in gang or corp salvage's it.
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Petrothian Tong
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.04.18 19:49:00 -
[36]
well, you can scream and cry as much as you want, but this is intended.....
after all they CHANGED it so that you dont have to loot (and the loot drop in a can that belongs to owner. but if you mess with the can, you get aggro...) to salvage..
yeah.... CCP intended salvaging be a mini profession. that anyone can do... -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur |
Marquis Dean
Indigo Fade
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Posted - 2007.04.18 20:05:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Annuke signed...If the wreck has your name on it, you should get kill rights if someone not in gang or corp salvage's it.
But the wreck doesn't have the victors name on it... read the thread before you post please.
--- Indigo Fade is now selling jumpclones for superb prices, please see Marquis Dean's bio and/or evemail/convo him ingame.
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Annuke
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.18 20:24:00 -
[38]
well..either way...you should get concorded/killrights on you for salvaging someone elses wreck. I have nothing more to say on this.
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Covenn
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.18 20:45:00 -
[39]
N00b Question:
How do you Salvage wrecks ?
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.18 20:57:00 -
[40]
salvaging skills
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Rali Redclaw
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Posted - 2007.04.18 22:32:00 -
[41]
Back on topic.
You guys are thinking of it in out-of-game context.
In the game world, what is a wreck? It is a piece of worthless junk, a ruined ship cast aside. Why would CONCORD spend their time to defend destroyed ships? It only has value because CCP created a new skill for salvaging so it is possibly valuable to YOU.
Ship cargo is different in that it is still intact and thusly has value to the original owner.
If you're so concerned with your wrecks, clean them up while you're on the mission.
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Chainsaw Plankton
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Posted - 2007.04.18 23:18:00 -
[42]
hmmm why are wrecks you kill white, and wrecks from other players yellow then?
well anyways i think its time to go learn how to probe and to buy some scan probes and do some ninja looting
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.18 23:41:00 -
[43]
when insular solo game players are forced to face other players either in friendly or hostile circumstances they tend to yell and scream just like this thread
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Kylar Renpurs
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Posted - 2007.04.19 01:24:00 -
[44]
Oh dear,, break out the old kleenex.
Wrecks are white and yellow so you know what you can take loot from, and is an accomodation for cargo containers. It's like how it was originally implemented,, there was still white and yellow cans, but all wrecks were white, which obviously made no sense coz you couldn't tell whose wrecks you could loot from.
Wrecks are wrecks are wrecks, and can and should be salvaged by anybody. Why should joe bloggs be criminally flagged for salvaging something which jane doe *can't* salvage, thus the skill requirements for salvaging. As someone pointed out, ninja salvaging is a legitimate trade, and working exactly the way CCP would like, and the way most players like.
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Humwawa
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Posted - 2007.04.19 02:59:00 -
[45]
My opinion is as I said - I killed the ship and so I should have looting right on the WHOLE SHIP
This has nothing to do with high-sec,low sec or 0,0
What I find wrong is that "the thief" or "not thief" or whatever gets protected by concord.
Would be nice if we could get an official statement on this IF its intended OR not.
If it is - so be it. I will and must live with it.
Obviously if an opinion is not liked here one is either accused of whining or ones words are turned around in ones mouth.
End of discussion from my point of view Have a nice day
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WhitePhantom
Gallente Edenists
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Posted - 2007.04.19 03:23:00 -
[46]
If your worried about ninja salvaging the wreck, salvage the wreck first, you could also go into deadspace ( you after you complete the missions those 20 ships you left behind ) and get the exact same modules.
Salvaging should NOT be a criminal act, wrecks should NOT have an owner ( only the loot inside should be flagged towards a person ). There are 10 different things you could do ( have somebody with you to salvage the wreck ) is another example.
If people are in the same area, go to another location, there is alot of unused space all with rats.
I will repeat, there is almost no difference between what you get from rats and the mission npcs that you don't salvage most likely.
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Mik Nostrebor
Minmatar ORKS
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Posted - 2007.04.19 04:03:00 -
[47]
All I can input into this discussion is that it is no more unfair than many mundane laws that exist today.
The Concord Law is this:
Quote:
1. A person loses all rights to the ownership of their ship in any space if it is disabled beyond the ability to fight and navigate. In this case it officially becomes a wreck.
2. Wrecks can be salvaged by anyone to procure plates, parts, materials from it excluding:
Cargo, Functioning, Weaponry, munitions, and any other upgrades that have registered Blueprints in existence. The rights to salvage these items are awarded to the person or corporate entity this person has assigned their rights to. Anyone breaking this covenant, even in the event of unclaimed salvage are deemed to be committing and act of unlawful theft and are not covered by the Concord Security Agreement.
All unregistered items or non-functioning items are not covered by this law and are "fair game" for General Salvage.
3.In the case that general salvage enters into the cargohold or cargo container of a person, it ceases to be General Salvage and becomes classified as Cargo and is subjected to normal laws as stated above.
Note I did NOT quote this from any official source but it is the effect of how the system works. I have seen such clauses in Various parts of General Insurance and Maritime related legislation in my lifetime and 'yes' they do seem to defy logic. I saw one that said all brass fittings, engines and engine bearings (?!? aren't they like in the engine?!?) belong to the original owner of a wrecked vessel, but not the hull, fittings and fixtures. Personal effects remained the property of the crew but the cargo became subject to weird stuff about insurance companies and recovery fees and other madness.
So, in my opinion the weirdness is actually very sustainable as a legal model for salvaging. I don;t like it but life is full of such things.
Another possible reason CCP might have made salvage this way is that it would reduce the amount of objects in some of the busier systems therefore acting to reduce lag.
As I think that CCP should write a News story on the way salvage works and make the laws part of the Eve backstory. It is a colourful and illogical development and in my opinion adds depth to the game.
So I hope a dev or mod notices my post and turns this complaint into an opportunity.
Mik
AUSSIE AND KIWI EVE Fansite |
Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.19 05:13:00 -
[48]
the OP still hasnt decided to join a group of mission runners ( having one dedicated salvage and looter go in behind) to reduce what someone else might get
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Danjira Ryuujin
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Posted - 2007.04.19 06:57:00 -
[49]
Salvaging the wreck of a ship that you didn't blow up should definitely give a criminal flag. This doesn't mean that salvaging is not a viable profession. It just means its a little bit shadier, which honestly I think is cool. I imagine being a full time salvager would be very profitable, and as such it should indeed involve risk.
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WhitePhantom
Gallente Edenists
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Posted - 2007.04.19 07:33:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Salvaging the wreck of a ship that you didn't blow up should definitely give a criminal flag. This doesn't mean that salvaging is not a viable profession. It just means its a little bit shadier, which honestly I think is cool. I imagine being a full time salvager would be very profitable, and as such it should indeed involve risk.
If a wreck it exists, it means the person doesn't want it, otherwise THEY would salvage it.
If you destroid the ship your closest to the wreck, no reason you can't begin to salvage itas soon as its destroid.
If your in the public, ther are 10 other people, guess what you can skin a corpse in other mmrpgs also.
This is exactly like skinning.
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Humwawa
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Posted - 2007.04.19 08:23:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Humwawa on 19/04/2007 08:23:29
Originally by: WhitePhantom
Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Salvaging the wreck of a ship that you didn't blow up should definitely give a criminal flag. This doesn't mean that salvaging is not a viable profession. It just means its a little bit shadier, which honestly I think is cool. I imagine being a full time salvager would be very profitable, and as such it should indeed involve risk.
If a wreck it exists, it means the person doesn't want it, otherwise THEY would salvage it.
If you destroid the ship your closest to the wreck, no reason you can't begin to salvage itas soon as its destroid.
If your in the public, ther are 10 other people, guess what you can skin a corpse in other mmrpgs also.
This is exactly like skinning.
If someone skins the corpse of the monster I just killed in UO without talking to me first I kill him. To be more concrete: In Trammel (highsec)you cant skin corpses you have no lootright on for about 11 min - In Felucca you can - As I said - I kill him if he does so without talking to me first.
Taking from above poster:If a wreck it exists, it means the person doesn't want it, otherwise THEY would salvage it.
Give me a chance please ;) I still had 8 BS firing at me while this person was allready happily looting the wrecks I had created seconds ago.
A possibility would be to have a timer like a poster further up mentioned (that was one of the few constructive answers..)
Whatever happens I lie it into the hands of the ccp-gods - An official statement would still be nice. Greetings Humwawa Edit: Give me a chance please ;) I still had 8 BS firing at me while this person was allready happily looting the wrecks I had created seconds ago.
I meant salvaging,my mistake
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.19 08:37:00 -
[52]
ccp gods have already spoken its implemented as is. This is UO or WOW. Not even PVP orientated not an exploits devs stated this is how they wanted it loot ( falgged) salvaging (no flag)
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Humwawa
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Posted - 2007.04.19 08:44:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Callthetruth ccp gods have already spoken its implemented as is. This is UO or WOW. Not even PVP orientated not an exploits devs stated this is how they wanted it loot ( falgged) salvaging (no flag)
Have you a link by the hand where the statement is? Cant remember hearing the statement in patchnotes etc - might have missed it somehow. Greetings Humwawa
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.19 09:11:00 -
[54]
one of the devblogs to do with invention+salvaging either last patch or one before
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pandymen
Caldari Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
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Posted - 2007.04.19 09:43:00 -
[55]
Seeing as how CCP is such a small company, I find it interesting that at least 5 of there employees seem to have posted in this thread using alts. How could they otherwise know what CCP intended or what the "quoted" concord law is. Please guys, stop with the flamebait, this is ridiculous.
No one knows for sure if this is how CCP intended. All that you know is that is how the game is right now. It may or may not be changed in the future. Considering this is only since the last patch and there have been no mentions of it in the devblog to my knowledge, this could easily have been intended for other reasons than to create a new profession for salvagers.
No one knows yet, and I'm pretty sure i'm right in saying that because so far, I have yet to see a link to any sort of actual CCP statement. See what happens during the next update, and just hope that the devs comment on this.
However, I will mention that I enjoy the fact that you can now ninja salvage. If you want to salvage, do it the first time around or go directly after completing your objective. If you can't be bothered, then salvage can't be that important to you. If that is even a problem, go to a lower populated system. But for those of you that I actually agree with, please don't go around pretending you know about something you clearly don't. State your opinion as opinion, not fact.
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Demonarc
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Posted - 2007.04.19 10:33:00 -
[56]
From what I remember, this was requested a while ago to clear up newbie grounds and whatnot of wrecks.
How many new players have the Salvaging skill? The wrecks were staying around for too long as nobody could salvage them without looting them, and thus getting flagged.
Okay, I think it's bad play for someone to sit in a belt watching you rat, and then going and salvaging your wrecks whilst you're still fighting, but I do agree with the new system.
If it happened to me i'd ask them to stop since I do intend on slavaging the wreck. If they don't stop, i'll stop feeding them wrecks and let the rats attack them and return the favour.
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Darqion Zenix
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Posted - 2007.04.19 10:50:00 -
[57]
then make a timer after which they become free to salvage ? thats a problem solved
its MY wreck, and i decide what i vallue loot. how is a bunch of fried computer parts less mine then the whole computer sitting next to it ?
the only reason that could be there is indeed people werent cleaning them, and having wrecks flag Free for all, after a certain ammount of time would still make that happen
i hear left and right eve is "all about pvp, everything leads to it" well.. not if people can savely take what I USED AMMO ON to kill. maybe i dont even WANT the loot but the salvage, and by no logical way is something busted less mine then something whole.
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Humwawa
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Posted - 2007.04.19 11:57:00 -
[58]
Yes a timer is a solution - Otherwise they pop anyway after an hour - Absolutley dont see the difference between a can and a wreck.If you would get flagged - are the "ninja-salvagers" scared of getting flagged?
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Janu Hull
Caldari Order of Z Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.19 16:26:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Anaalys is completely right. Wreakage having no inherent ownership is one of the keys to making rigs more module-like in price, like intended.
That wreck has my Corp tag on it, punk, it belongs to my Corp. I give this a week or three before its corrected. Enjoy until then.
This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless... |
Vaethal
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Posted - 2007.04.19 16:52:00 -
[60]
To all those who say wreckage has no inherent ownership. This is completely false.
To support this I would submit as evidence Tractor Beams.
When I attempt to tractor in a wreck that was not killed by me I get a message saying that the item does not belong to me. This is an ingame message that appears on my screen.
Therefore, if the item in question does not belong to me and I am not allowed to interact with said object it becomes an illegal action to do so.
The message received from tractoring a wreck that is not mine is the same as when I attempt to tractor a cargo canister that is not mine. The game clearly identifies it as not belonging to me.
If CCP is allowing wrecks to be interacted with on some levels with no criminal sanctions they will need to define this further because they have applied a rather piecemeal legality to the whole affair.
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Annuke
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.19 17:32:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Annuke on 19/04/2007 17:40:40
Doh, I said I was done with this one. This is only my opinion and not whining or anything. Ok...now officially done=)
end edit
Well said Vaethal. I can see it now....galle's with 10 salvage drones picking off wrecks from 100km away while the mission runner is trying to finish mission.
If my missles or whatever went into making that ship a wreck, it should be considered mine.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.04.19 17:37:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Vaethal To all those who say wreckage has no inherent ownership. This is completely false.
To support this I would submit as evidence Tractor Beams.
The issue isn't ownership of the wreck, it's ownership of the salvage.
Originally by: pandymen Seeing as how CCP is such a small company, I find it interesting that at least 5 of there employees seem to have posted in this thread using alts. How could they otherwise know what CCP intended or what the "quoted" concord law is. Please guys, stop with the flamebait, this is ridiculous.
No flamebait on my part. I am going off of memory, some common sense, and a little Occam's Razor in all of my statements. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but there's nothing dishonest about it. (I wish there were a viable way of searching these forums for dev statements more than a few weeks old.)
Originally by: Janu Hull
That wreck has my Corp tag on it, punk
When somebody sucks up all your corp's wrecks into their cargo hold, please let us know.
* * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.19 18:36:00 -
[63]
for mission runners wercks arent worth anything same goes for loot the value is fully in the missio nand bounties we all know that
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Christopher Dalran
Gallente Deadly Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.19 21:51:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 19/04/2007 21:52:20 The wreck belongs to nobody, well except to the person who's ship was destroyed but only if they can get back to it and claim it.
The reason WHY wrecks have a tag on them is because you can ONLY tractor items belonging to you or your corp, so in order to have someone able to tractor it a Tag is needed.
Strictly speaking you dont own the salvage until you salvage it, If you blow up something and then leave the wreck (say to go on the other side of the mission or warp out and come back in a dedicated hauler/salvager) then its completly up for grabs and i dont see why you should be able to do anything about it in High security space.
If you want your salvage then salvage it quickly before someone else comes.
If you want to enforce what YOU think is right low sec or 0.0 is needed. ------------------------------- C.D's Formula for success ------------------------------- Credit Card = Game Time Card Gametime Card = ISK Therefore Credit Card = ISK.
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Jasqar
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Posted - 2007.04.19 22:36:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Callthetruth for mission runners wercks arent worth anything same goes for loot the value is fully in the missio nand bounties we all know that
Umm for "some" mission runners that are farming LP's this may be true, not for all or even most i would bet.
IMO this will be "fixed" soon. Just an easy way to steal loot as it is now with no risk at all. And we know CCP are big on the risk/reward:)
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Andon Cormarr
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Posted - 2007.04.20 13:38:00 -
[66]
All right, in answer to those that want CCP's comments about wrecks, here is are the patch notes mentioning the ability to salvage a wreck without looting. (Under Misc.)
http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?patchlogID=125
I find it interesting that in none of the previous patches, nor the blogs, is criminal flagging mentioned. This would tend to make me believe that CCP is happy with the current results, since they have remained silent on the matter.
The "laws" involving theft in EvE are obviously very convoluted, since a PC has the "right" to shoot any 'rat they come across. And, as previously noted, this right includes transfer of ownership of any functional modules found on the resulting 'rat's wreck. It seems that a statute was enacted that declared wrecks themselves "public property" as an incentive to "keep the spacelanes clear."
It might not be logical, but it does make sense economically. It helps push rig prices down to where CCP feels they are properly balanced...or at least closer to that point. So don't expect this to change.
Besides, if you whine long & loud enough, CCP might decide to use logic for once. In which case, you wouldn't get a criminal flag for someone taking the loot, either. After all, the NPC is the technical owner of the ship/modules/etc...just like YOU are the owner of the wreck created when a pirate pops your ship in a PvP situation.
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Colonel Branigain
E Systems
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Posted - 2007.04.20 13:56:00 -
[67]
Well, I admit I have not read through 3 pages of posts on this, but I wanted to add my two cents. When in high sec my corpmates and I ask before we salvage someones wrecks.. if they are in system. When in low sec we take.
Mostly we salvage in high sec when in cosmos plexes that are spawning like mad and wrecks are filling space like popcorn in a microwave. I really don't see a problem with wrecks havign to be empty before you salvage them.. you take someones loot you deal with the consequences. But also in high sec there is a need to clear wrecks to reduce lag.. especially in the cosmos plexes.
Thats my two cents
Flame away
We hate Mirph, its the kind of personal, deep down loathing that makes you pet your favorite gun and smile. Yes we hate Mirph, the kind of hate that keeps our lasers warm, and our railguns low on ammo |
Shoele Lialos
Gallente Elite United Corp Antigo Dominion
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Posted - 2007.04.20 13:59:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Callthetruth for mission runners wercks arent worth anything same goes for loot the value is fully in the missio nand bounties we all know that
I certainly don't agree with that. I regularly sell upwards of 10MN worth of loot after a mission and then reprocess all of the junk to eventually make more missiles with it.
I salvage and loot with a destroyer, dragging everything around in a 27.5k loot can which I then pick up with an Indy when I'm done.
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Elspeth Vigneron
Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.20 14:14:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Marquis Dean They aren't your wrecks. They belong to the player (or NPC in this case) that owned the ship that created the wreck.
Ninja salvaging is a legitimate profession, and has turned out exactly how CCP wanted.
Deal with it.
YOu work for CCP? Or just throwing out your opinion, hoping it'll stick? Because what I've noticed is a LOT of unintended consequences and LOPSIDED issues, frequenly leading to complaints and nerfing, because CCP OBVIOUSLY didn't think things through. And that's what this smells like.
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Rab
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Posted - 2007.04.20 14:46:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Elspeth Vigneron
YOu work for CCP? Or just throwing out your opinion, hoping it'll stick? Because what I've noticed is a LOT of unintended consequences and LOPSIDED issues, frequenly leading to complaints and nerfing, because CCP OBVIOUSLY didn't think things through. And that's what this smells like.
hope this helps you realise this is intended:
http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=330
Quote: Note that anyone can salvage materials from wrecks, regardless of who destroyed the ship, while looting items from a wreck can get you flagged and a legal target for the owner.
Heres some extra information about what can cause you to be flagged. it does speak of wreck having owners but only as regards looting said wrecks.
http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=95
- In an infinite universe, everything is definite. - |
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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.20 16:55:00 -
[71]
If I were the OP, I might be tempted to keep my big mouth SHUT...work with me on this.
CCP are on record as saying missions in empire space are too rewarding.
Thus, they reduce the reward you can get SAFELY by making your wrecks "fair game"...out in 0.4 and below, no one would be likely to touch your wrecks because you'd blow them up...in Empire, you can't...result, missions less rewarding...
So, WHY should you keep shtum about this...?
Because, for my money, I think there HAS been an oversight on CCP's part...yes, taking stuff from a CAN causes flagging...there's no reason they couldn't code so that taking something from a WRECK didn't...
So shush. You don't know how lucky you are. ---
I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment. |
Tashia Rizti
Starlancers Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2007.04.20 17:16:00 -
[72]
A quick comment that happened to me which is why I think it should be flagged...
Mining in a 0.5 System, I was in a hauler and my friend in a Covertor. 3 rats spawn, and he quickly took them out with the drones. I have a miner and salvager fitted so I start chugging along (only moments after they are destroyed mind you) to salvage. A Intercepter warps in, and quickly MWD/ABs to the 3 wrecks and quickly takes all the salvage. Sure this is rare someone in a fast ship warps in on you, but its still a reality of what can happen. One ship happened to be a Dread ship, and I'm sure it was some decent salvage from that ship.
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WhitePhantom
Gallente Edenists
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Posted - 2007.04.20 18:57:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Tashia Rizti A quick comment that happened to me which is why I think it should be flagged...
Mining in a 0.5 System, I was in a haulr and my friend in a Covertor. 3 rats spawn, and he quickly took them out with the drones. I have a miner and salvager fitted so I start chugging along (only moments after they are destroyed mind you) to salvage. A Intercepter warps in, and quickly MWD/ABs to the 3 wrecks and quickly takes all the salvage. Sure this is rare someone in a fast ship warps in on you, but its still a reality of what can happen. One ship happened to be a Dread ship, and I'm sure it was some decent salvage from that ship.
Why didn't you have a AB with you?
I will repeat my suggestion, if you want wrecks that are basicly yours and yours alone, do missions.
I have never experienced what you trying to describe, and still think you should find a less busy system if its a problem.
You could do level 2 missions and get 20x as much salvage material with little to no effort.
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Han Quattro
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.20 20:51:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Tashia Rizti A quick comment that happened to me which is why I think it should be flagged...
Mining in a 0.5 System, I was in a hauler and my friend in a Covertor. 3 rats spawn, and he quickly took them out with the drones. I have a miner and salvager fitted so I start chugging along (only moments after they are destroyed mind you) to salvage. A Intercepter warps in, and quickly MWD/ABs to the 3 wrecks and quickly takes all the salvage. Sure this is rare someone in a fast ship warps in on you, but its still a reality of what can happen. One ship happened to be a Dread ship, and I'm sure it was some decent salvage from that ship.
OK, a couple of things here. First, chances are good that that Inty pilot got zilch from the Dread ship in the way of salvage. What you get, if anything at all, is totally random. The salvage skills, rigs, etc., only affect how fast you salvage. And it's been my experience, and I salvage everything I can from both missions and ratting, that you tend to get something less than fifty percent of the time, and when you do, chances are it's not much. So unless that Inty pilot stole the loot as well, he probably didn't get much.
Second, I think CCP has wrecks set up the way they are to encourage players to salvage as much as possible. Reason being, the exhorbitantly high prices of Tech I rigs. Who in their right minds would even consider putting a single 15 mill isk Tech I rig on a Tech I frigate or cruiser, or any other cheap ship? Yet these ships have slots for 3 rigs. Totally useless!!! So CCP made all wrecks fair game in the hopes of lowering Tech I rig prices. But I think it's far, far too little. They really need to increase the chance and amount of salvage drops from wrecks. Maybe also lowering the material requirements for Tech I rigs, as well. I think it would be really great to see a higher volume market develop where people really could individualize their Tech I ships. Just one opinion.
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Kai Jyokoroi
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.04.20 22:44:00 -
[75]
Whine whine whine
ANSWER - go to 0.0, then you can shoot him. CCP wants you to go there anyway.
Anyone can easily make 100 mil in 2 or 3 hours via various methods if you're smart, and I can find a bil or more if I'm real lucky and find a hidden plex that drops a bhaalgorn BPC or something. WHy you're complaining about people nicking your crappy t1 loot is beyond me.
_____________ WE ARE THE COLLECTIVE. RESISTANCE IS VOLTAGE OVER CURRENT.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.04.21 00:35:00 -
[76]
salvage is a resource like ore. roleplay happens to connect it to popped ships. since npc don't pop each other (i liked that a lot back when i played xwing/tie-fighter/both), these wrecks have to be "made" by players in missions and belts. salvaging is then nothing short of a form of mining. if just the scrap scan probing would work...
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CPL Nobbes
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Posted - 2007.04.21 07:46:00 -
[77]
Whilst the mini profession of salvager is certainly worthwhile, some of those that practice it need to learn some common manners and decency. When 4 corp mates and myself are actively cleaning up the legion of wrecks left by a lvl 4 blockade we should not have to put up with some rude little so and so acting like a vulture and salvaging wrecks we have not got to yet or we are actually tractoring (it has happened). Criminal flagging for salvaging is probably not the answer. There is probably a list of real and exaggerated software related issues as to why making wrecks last longer and having an ownership countdown on them (my preferred method) is not viable. There really is no solution other than to rely on people to consider others before they act. A pathetic enough hope in RL let alone a MMO.
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WhitePhantom
Gallente Edenists
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Posted - 2007.04.21 19:37:00 -
[78]
Originally by: CPL Nobbes Whilst the mini profession of salvager is certainly worthwhile, some of those that practice it need to learn some common manners and decency. When 4 corp mates and myself are actively cleaning up the legion of wrecks left by a lvl 4 blockade we should not have to put up with some rude little so and so acting like a vulture and salvaging wrecks we have not got to yet or we are actually tractoring (it has happened). Criminal flagging for salvaging is probably not the answer. There is probably a list of real and exaggerated software related issues as to why making wrecks last longer and having an ownership countdown on them (my preferred method) is not viable. There really is no solution other than to rely on people to consider others before they act. A pathetic enough hope in RL let alone a MMO.
Go to another sector, do high security sector level 4 missions, and you won't be bothered with people. So what if somebody gets a couple wrecks, its worth pennies compared to what you got from the kill itself.
Learn to adapt instead of complain.
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Lilan Kahn
Amarr The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.04.21 20:01:00 -
[79]
[17:59:15] Medeoan Nacheradavish > hmmm? [17:59:19] Albian > what ya up to overhtere? [17:59:39] Medeoan Nacheradavish > picking up bins [17:59:49] Albian > my stuff? [17:59:58] Medeoan Nacheradavish > your stuf? [18:00:03] Medeoan Nacheradavish > i dont see your stuf [18:00:12] Albian > you just cruised through my mission [18:00:21] Medeoan Nacheradavish > yes i did [18:00:54] Albian > your not going to loot or salvage my wrecks are you? [18:00:59] Medeoan Nacheradavish > yes i am [18:01:13] Albian > why are you going to try that? [18:01:20] Medeoan Nacheradavish > why not? [18:01:33] Albian > because they are mine and I'm doing it [18:01:44] Medeoan Nacheradavish > Well sucks to be you [18:01:55] Medeoan Nacheradavish > unless you whant to pay me to go away [18:02:25] Albian > when you grab something of mine you'll turn red and I'll just pop you then [18:05:41] Albian > you waiting for me to shoot and have concord show up, keep waiting [18:06:15] Medeoan Nacheradavish > okay if you say so [18:08:32] Albian > ge tt the **** out of here [18:08:37] Medeoan Nacheradavish > make me [18:08:45] Medeoan Nacheradavish > as i said you can pay me [18:08:58] Albian > I'm no ******* macro and your screwing with my income [18:09:04] Medeoan Nacheradavish > too bad [18:09:11] Medeoan Nacheradavish > i am incressing my own incom [18:09:16] Albian > what the hell is your problem? [18:09:30] Medeoan Nacheradavish > i dont know you tell me [18:11:04] Albian > well first normal people woprk their own accounts and don't rely on other people efforts and steaql [18:11:18] Medeoan Nacheradavish > Welcom to eve [18:11:28] Albian > welcome to retardation [18:11:47] Albian > your too damn lazy to do your own work [18:12:08] Medeoan Nacheradavish > lucky i have you to do my work then [18:14:05] Albian > what do you want to leave3 me alone then? [18:14:27] Medeoan Nacheradavish > i dont know what is it worth to you? [18:14:45] Albian > I don't know I never ransom people [18:15:11] Medeoan Nacheradavish > Well what is it worth to you that i dont tag along and salvage the rest of your misssion [18:15:37] Albian > I DON'T KNOW I DON't RASNSOM People [18:16:06] Medeoan Nacheradavish > Well you see hon i normaly only ransom ships [18:16:16] Medeoan Nacheradavish > you gotta help me out a bit here [18:16:39] Albian > WHAT DO YOU WANT 20 MILLIOON? [18:16:47] Medeoan Nacheradavish > Sure [18:17:03] Albian > there [18:17:10] Medeoan Nacheradavish > tootels [18:17:20] Albian > thank you !!! [18:18:01] Albian > I appreciate it [18:18:16] Medeoan Nacheradavish > your welcom [18:18:25] Albian > fly safe [18:18:29] Medeoan Nacheradavish > Same
no thanks i like wreaks to stay the way it is now.
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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Divideby0
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.04.21 21:21:00 -
[80]
I'm curious who was flying what in that discussion.
In general it is good etiquette to ask first if you want to loot a wreck. I do it, and I appreciate when others do it. Then again, it would be nice if PvPers would ask before they pod you. But I digress...
In general, I think the existing system is fine: the wreck semi-belongs to the one who made the wreck in terms of looting, destroying and tractor beaming. After all, they did all the work, why should it be made easy to steal it from them?
Another possible solution is to add a "Claim" function or skill where you officially lay a CONCORD-sanctioned claim to an object/wreck/drone/asteroid over a certain size...and you can only do it in empire space. You can claim "X" objects for a period of time. Its not like Eve needs more skills though.
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.21 21:24:00 -
[81]
lol ive got quite a few chatlogs myself stil its amusing most of the time i just smile cause if u talk back they explode with carebear venom
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Lilan Kahn
Amarr The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.04.21 21:38:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Divideby0 I'm curious who was flying what in that discussion.
In general it is good etiquette to ask first if you want to loot a wreck. I do it, and I appreciate when others do it. Then again, it would be nice if PvPers would ask before they pod you. But I digress...
In general, I think the existing system is fine: the wreck semi-belongs to the one who made the wreck in terms of looting, destroying and tractor beaming. After all, they did all the work, why should it be made easy to steal it from them?
Another possible solution is to add a "Claim" function or skill where you officially lay a CONCORD-sanctioned claim to an object/wreck/drone/asteroid over a certain size...and you can only do it in empire space. You can claim "X" objects for a period of time. Its not like Eve needs more skills though.
Angry guy raven
the "grifer" destroyer
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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Talkie Toaster
Amarr Knights of the Industrial Order
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Posted - 2007.04.22 11:30:00 -
[83]
if they wanted more people to salvage then why didnt the introduce a better salvage module or tractor module. say it salvages anything within 2km or something and you just leave it running like a booster. on the bigger missions its still only useful if you are running a salvaging ship anyway as your fighter probably cant take all the loot and salvage on the mission in its hold.
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Tommy Vercetti
Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.22 16:16:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Kai Jyokoroi WHy you're complaining about people nicking your crappy t1 loot is beyond me.
QFT.
Besides, whats the point? 95% of the mission runners probably won't shoot back anyway.
Originally by: Pestillence
It's a game where we fly around in eggs with tubes up our arses. If I want reality I'll go outside.
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FlailofFury
Slanik Corp
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Posted - 2007.04.22 20:14:00 -
[85]
Edited by: FlailofFury on 22/04/2007 20:12:30
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Jove Centauri
Freelance Rising
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Posted - 2007.04.24 00:44:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Humwawa How can it be possible that people can get away with that? Now before anyone tells me go to low sec - this is NOT what its about!
If someone scans me in highsec during a mission and then salvages my wrecks - so be it. BUT If I cant attack him without getting concorded this is plain stupid and has NOTHING to do with pvp-orientated. In my eyes this is only exploiting. CCP PLEASE fix ASAP
Wow, I had no idea this was possible. But thank you for enlightening me with this thread. I do my missions in lowsec, so I never had this problem. But seriously, all this time I wasted doing level 4s to get decent salvage I can now just send my industrial alt to highsec, leech off the carebears and build rigs 10x faster. Not bad.
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Trinity Faetal
Gallente 0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.04.24 10:05:00 -
[87]
how do these ninjasalvagedudes find ur mission sites ? i have been doing missions in high sec and all my missions are in deadspace. --
Bakka! bakka! bakka! bakka! bakka! bakka! bakka! |
Jove Centauri
Freelance Rising
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Posted - 2007.04.24 12:34:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Trinity Faetal how do these ninjasalvagedudes find ur mission sites ? i have been doing missions in high sec and all my missions are in deadspace.
Scan probing with good skills is not hard, if you use drones it is rather easy. Spaceships in deadspace have 1/100 the normal signal strength... the loophole.... drones which usually stay within 50km of you have normal signal strength.
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Carcusian
Knights of the Silver Dawn
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Posted - 2007.04.24 14:36:00 -
[89]
ccp wants people to use eve as an MMO, not solo missions missions round the clock. maybe they could have implemented wrecks differently, but they want pressure to be on you to bring a salvage buddy, etc etc..
choices: 1) bring a salvaging buddy. 2) don't use drones. sucks if ur a drone ship. helps minimize ur signature to probes in deadpsace. if ur in a location, hope for the best. 3) my favroite option: start targetting and blowing up all your wrecks. you lose salavage and loot, but you win the contest of wills.
I do find it odd that the wreck belongs to everyone, but only you can shott it without concord intervention. but like i said, ccp is trying to implement an idea to force non-solo player mission running, and as we all know they dont always get it perfect.
what am i saying? its a flawlessly executed game model.
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.24 15:15:00 -
[90]
the part forcing them to bring a salvage buddy is a good one. It is multiplayer and if they are going to leave em behind ill get in there and ninja salvage + ninja loot for a profit
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Magnum Omega
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Posted - 2007.04.24 20:30:00 -
[91]
Concord WANTS the wrecks salvaged for the good of all, and that is why they do not want anyone salvaging to be killed for it.
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Vampie
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Posted - 2007.04.24 21:37:00 -
[92]
So, let me see if I understand:
1. Pirates say EVE is a PVP Game, its all about risk and reward 2. Carebears say, let me shoot at pirates that salvage my wrecks 3. Pirates say, no, its empire, you cannot shoot my pirate alt that is stealing from you
So, exactly where is the PVP part of EVE and where is the risk vs reward that pirates so much like to talk about?
My 2 cents,
Vampie
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Keliee Qijan
ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.04.25 06:53:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Keliee Qijan on 25/04/2007 06:49:38 Ok, so I read part of it but my eyes started to hurt, so if this was said, sorry, but....this said, if you kill a player the wreck belongs to the character you killed. If you take his stuff, you flash red to him, so he can kill you. As I see it, wrecks don't belong to anyone. It was an added bit to the game, and just think of when we didn't have that. It was added, and yes it makes missions more profitable, and I don't want people warping into my mission and salvaging my wrecks, but I'll still have my loot, which is just like had before the patch. Just my two cents, but I like what CCP did and don't want them to change it. CCP has enough things to change that would make the game much better before they start messing around with wrecks again.
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.25 07:01:00 -
[94]
CCP added new content with wrecks good mvoe btw
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timov
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Posted - 2007.04.25 08:41:00 -
[95]
Edited by: timov on 25/04/2007 08:39:17
Originally by: Keliee Qijan Edited by: Keliee Qijan on 25/04/2007 06:49:38 As I see it, wrecks don't belong to anyone.
ahm... wrong. Just looked it up for other reasons and found that: " Who owns what, and when ... When an NPC is killed by a player, the player who did the most damage to it gets ownership of any loot containers that may drop and of the wreck left behind by that NPC. "
(http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=143)
--edit: might be changed in last patch and not updated in the criminal flagging manual?
--- ... have fun ;) |
Lilan Kahn
Amarr The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.04.25 15:03:00 -
[96]
Originally by: timov Edited by: timov on 25/04/2007 08:39:17
Originally by: Keliee Qijan Edited by: Keliee Qijan on 25/04/2007 06:49:38 As I see it, wrecks don't belong to anyone.
ahm... wrong. Just looked it up for other reasons and found that: " Who owns what, and when ... When an NPC is killed by a player, the player who did the most damage to it gets ownership of any loot containers that may drop and of the wreck left behind by that NPC. "
(http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=143)
--edit: might be changed in last patch and not updated in the criminal flagging manual?
if this means i can frag your hairy lil ass in empire when you steal from a empire war kil sure if not **** off.
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.04.25 16:01:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Vampie So, let me see if I understand:
1. Pirates say EVE is a PVP Game, its all about risk and reward 2. Carebears say, let me shoot at pirates that salvage my wrecks 3. Pirates say, no, its empire, you cannot shoot my pirate alt that is stealing from you
So, exactly where is the PVP part of EVE and where is the risk vs reward that pirates so much like to talk about?
My 2 cents,
Vampie
Well, I doubt many pirate alts are doing it, as there are so much better ways to make money, and easier too. As for the main part of your question, you could just as well ask where the risk is in HiSec mining or NPC trading. I'll just quote what I thought about it earlier:
Quote: The key here isn't "risk" it's "effort". For their time and effort they get the salvage, for yours you get the loot, bounties, standings, mission rewards *and* the salvage if you really want it badly enough.
Risk has little to do with it in high sec missions, for them or you.
* * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.04.25 16:19:00 -
[98]
Originally by: timov Edited by: timov on 25/04/2007 08:39:17
Originally by: Keliee Qijan Edited by: Keliee Qijan on 25/04/2007 06:49:38 As I see it, wrecks don't belong to anyone.
ahm... wrong. Just looked it up for other reasons and found that: " Who owns what, and when ... When an NPC is killed by a player, the player who did the most damage to it gets ownership of any loot containers that may drop and of the wreck left behind by that NPC. "
(http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=143)
--edit: might be changed in last patch and not updated in the criminal flagging manual?
Once again, the issue isn't ownership of the NPC wreck, it's ownership of the contents. There can be two different types of content, loot and salvage. Loot is definitely assigned to the killer of the NPC. Salvage is neutral. Note that this is documented quite clearly here: https://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=330
So you might ask what the purpose of the game even assigning ownership of a wreck is? There are a few things I can think of, but I believe the main practical reasons for it are to make it clear what wrecks are safe to loot from; and to make destruction of somebody else's wrecks--depriving them of both loot and salvage--a criminal act. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Iuris Proeliator
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.04.25 17:24:00 -
[99]
Here's the thing though.
Player A creates a wreck. The wreck has loot. PLayer B takes the loot in high sec. Player B gets a good ol' Concordoken.
Player A creates a wreck in low sec. The wreck has loot. Player B takes the loot. PLayer B gets a criminal flag, gate guns shoot at him. Player A can pop him without any backlash from Concord.
Player A creates a wreck in high sec. The wreck has loot. Player B pops the wreck. As I understand, PLayer B gets a Concordoken.
Player A creates a wreck in high sec. The wreck has loot. Player A loots the wreck. Player B pops the wreck. Player B gets the same as above.
Player A creates a wreck in low sec. The wreck has loot. PLayer B pops the wreck, gets an aggro timer.
Player A creates a wreck in low sec. THe wreck has loot, PLayer B pops the wreck AFTER PLayer A loots. Player B gets an aggro timer.
So far, we're consistent. The wreck, EVEN WITHOUT LOOT, gives aggro timers and kill rights based around the party who created the wreck, in this case Player A.
Now, Player B SALVAGING the wreck, regardless of it's loot, gets NO aggro timer.
That is an inconsistency. So, either ALL the first examples get changed, or the above. Which side seems out of balance?
As for salvage value, I can quite often salvage, value wise, as much worth as the loot. Hell, if I'm dealing with Sansha, get lucky, and I can pull in some Nanite Compounds and Melted Cap Consoles, I can make more.
That being said, I'm all for rig prices dropping, and so I honestly will agree that after a certain time, wrecks should be salvageable by anyone. But that's not what happens. The other day, 2 friends and I were doing a Lvl IV worlds collide. We had cleared the entire opening area and were working the Gurista's side... when some smacktard had scanned us down, warped to our open area, and began salvaging the wrecks left and right. We had JUST made them, maybe 20 minutes old, and he took them. Now, luckily, he got scared when he decided to take the Serpentis route and almost got his ass shot out from under him.
There is an inconsistency. And for all the "ZOMG, THAT'S THE GAME LIKE IT OR LEAVE!" crowd, I counter with this. CCP introduces a new ship. Caldari battlecruiser, the "Gankateer". It's got twice the shields of a drake, twice the missile DPS of a faction-fitted CNR, and double the drone bay of a Navy Mega and the armor tank of an Apocalypse. Should people not complain about this obvious inconsistency and inbalance? Should they take the game "the way it is"?
There's a fine line between leaving well enough alone and fixing what's inconsistent/broken. This is inconsistent/broken.
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Draconus Lofwyr
Eternal Guardians Celestial Frontier
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Posted - 2007.04.25 18:35:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Draconus Lofwyr on 25/04/2007 18:33:21 I don't know if this has been suggested, but it would require a change in the color code for the wrecks.
3 levels of wrecks
1st time interval (30 min to an hr as that can be adjusted for performance) the wreck is red to everyone but those that have rights to the wreck. only the person that has rights can loot or salvage or pop the wreck.
2nd time interval the wreck changes to yellow and the rights expand. only the person that has rights can loot or pop, but anyone can salvage.
3rd time interval the wreck changes to white and it is now free for all.
when a wreck is salvaged before it is looted, the timer continues till it turns white for everyone.
This will accomplish 2 things, it gives the owner time to salvage and loot in plexes without worry of being snarfed, but also encourages the wrecks to be looted and salvaged before they clutter the areas too much causing outrageous lag.
This is just my 2 ISK, I may be totally flamed, but this is what i would consider fair to all.
D
P.S. the color code can be changed to yellow for the first, green for the second, and white for the third to eliminate confusion with a rat.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.04.25 18:46:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Iuris Proeliator
There is an inconsistency. And for all the "ZOMG, THAT'S THE GAME LIKE IT OR LEAVE!" crowd, I counter with this. CCP introduces a new ship. Caldari battlecruiser, the "Gankateer". It's got twice the shields of a drake, twice the missile DPS of a faction-fitted CNR, and double the drone bay of a Navy Mega and the armor tank of an Apocalypse. Should people not complain about this obvious inconsistency and inbalance? Should they take the game "the way it is"?
There's a fine line between leaving well enough alone and fixing what's inconsistent/broken. This is inconsistent/broken.
It only is inconsistent if you think of the contents of the wreck as being one category of items that should have one set of rules, when it's actually two. It's comparable to being bothered that different rules apply to turrets and missiles, since they're all weapons.
Balance is a more interesting question. I don't see an imbalance, personally (See my previous quotes for why.) but then again, I have yet to see any arguments in that direction. Only variations on "It's mine." * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.04.25 18:52:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Draconus Lofwyr Edited by: Draconus Lofwyr on 25/04/2007 18:33:21 I don't know if this has been suggested, but it would require a change in the color code for the wrecks.
3 levels of wrecks
1st time interval (30 min to an hr as that can be adjusted for performance) the wreck is red to everyone but those that have rights to the wreck. only the person that has rights can loot or salvage or pop the wreck.
2nd time interval the wreck changes to yellow and the rights expand. only the person that has rights can loot or pop, but anyone can salvage.
3rd time interval the wreck changes to white and it is now free for all.
when a wreck is salvaged before it is looted, the timer continues till it turns white for everyone.
This will accomplish 2 things, it gives the owner time to salvage and loot in plexes without worry of being snarfed, but also encourages the wrecks to be looted and salvaged before they clutter the areas too much causing outrageous lag.
This is just my 2 ISK, I may be totally flamed, but this is what i would consider fair to all.
D
P.S. the color code can be changed to yellow for the first, green for the second, and white for the third to eliminate confusion with a rat.
They're nice ideas in theory, but I'd be extremely skeptical that adding more timers and yet more lifespan to every wreck created in the game is such a good thing. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.25 19:33:00 -
[103]
and more lag welcome to eve wow editiion
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Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2007.04.25 22:58:00 -
[104]
Speaking as someone who has been an aggressive salvager since the days when missioners left huge constellations of loot cans around the stargates, I like the existing mechanic. But it doesn't make a huge difference.
I love to salvage wrecks, and I'll cheerfully scan down missioners to do it. There's quite a bit of risk involved, but it's one of the few things in secure space that's worth probing for.
Ask first? Why? I'm not a pirate, Jim, I'm a salvager, but do we expect pirates to ask for permission before pirating? No? Then why would you expect a salvager to ask permission before salvaging?
I was perfectly happy when I had to take the loot in order to salvage the wrecks, and since I generally still take the loot, the change hasn't made a lot of difference to me. It just gives me a bit more flexibility about when to loot and salvage. ------------------ Ironfleet.com Proposal: Automated Ore Return Vehicles |
Little Fistter
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Posted - 2007.04.25 23:18:00 -
[105]
I am of the opinion that:
1. LOOT belongs to the guy who killed the rat or player that drops it.
2. SALVAGE is "First Come, First Served."
Frankly, I think Salvage should include some of the minerals that went into that ship, but that's another story.
I hope the Dev's leave this one alone. I am SO tired of botched solutions for slight problems (like the decision to nerf all Nanofibres rather than just limit their use on the few ships that had a problem!) |
Zizzlak
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Posted - 2007.05.02 13:35:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Zizzlak on 02/05/2007 13:33:20
Originally by: Little Fistter I am of the opinion that:
1. LOOT belongs to the guy who killed the rat or player that drops it.
2. SALVAGE is "First Come, First Served."
Frankly, I think Salvage should include some of the minerals that went into that ship, but that's another story.
I hope the Dev's leave this one alone. I am SO tired of botched solutions for slight problems (like the decision to nerf all Nanofibres rather than just limit their use on the few ships that had a problem!)
I read this whole thread and I agree with a lot of the posts for leaving it as is. If I am doing a mission and don't salvage the wrecks in a timely manner, too bad for me. It is not impossible to fit a tractor and salvager to do that while I am killing the NPC's of my mission. Often times that's exactly what I do in either my Apoc or Harbinger. I agree 100% that someone coming in to salvage my wrecks WHILE I am doing the mission would **** me off, but so does getting ganked in a gate camp when I am trying to pick up something I just bought that happens to be in 0.4. It's part of the game. Deal or leave.
Everything I have read so far indicates that it's working as intended.
Oh, and btw, this is not a alt., I just started the game in January and this is my main. Since I salvage quite regularly I thought I would add my 2 isk
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OneSock
PLuSQuAMPERFEkT iNc
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Posted - 2007.05.02 14:43:00 -
[107]
I'm in the leave it as it is camp (sort of) even though I have had someone ninja salvage my wrecks.
I can't see messing with timers really helping much because some Lv4 missions take hours already, so it's not worth creating more lag etc.
Couple of suggestions.
1. Make deadspace wrecks ownership of mission runner and make belt rats open to anyone.
2. Leave it as it is but make it harder to scan out drone users.
The guys who have dropped in on my missions to take my salvage all found me via my drones.
CCP made it more difficult to scan out ships in deadspace, but "forgot" about how easy it was to find drones.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.02 16:13:00 -
[108]
Originally by: OneSock
CCP made it more difficult to scan out ships in deadspace, but "forgot" about how easy it was to find drones.
Actually its most likely because of the 5x sig radius increase when they use their MWDs. It gives them the same signature of a small BB, plus there are several of them.
Funny thing is I have never actually scanned out a mission because of drones. Luck I guess <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2
PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base |
justcheckingthemarket
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Posted - 2007.05.02 20:24:00 -
[109]
i've read through exactly the same discussion on another board recently, and i can't resist telling you all what i think:
i just love the idea of CCP making it possible to salvage other peoples wrecks without being flaged!! not that i've done it my self (got more profitable things to do ^^) but it gives mission running carebears something to whine about (since the PA issue is mor or the less fixed and whining about npc EW is boring) and honestly this and farming isk is all this people seem to enjoy.
but i also love the fact that your able to rep npc's without getting flaged!!!
to all of you who didn't know i'll give a short how to: scan out someone thats in a mission, wait for him to get a ******* lot of npc's to aggro him, rep the npc hes shooting at, lough and have fun, no risk at all and very amousing convo's/lokal conversations guaranteed!!! an and afterwards go and salvage his ship and all npc's he's killed ;-)
yes i'm a a very nasty person, but hey there's noting i enjoy more then read whine threds (like this one) form carebears, please give me more of that!!!
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.02 21:45:00 -
[110]
Originally by: justcheckingthemarket
to all of you who didn't know i'll give a short how to: scan out someone thats in a mission, wait for him to get a ******* lot of npc's to aggro him, rep the npc hes shooting at, lough and have fun, no risk at all and very amousing convo's/lokal conversations guaranteed!!! an and afterwards go and salvage his ship and all npc's he's killed ;-)
yes i'm a a very nasty person, but hey there's noting i enjoy more then read whine threds (like this one) form carebears, please give me more of that!!!
Getting fixed.
When implemented if you remote repair a NPC the PC that has shoot rights on it will get shoot rights on you. There was a mention in a Dev post a short while ago.... <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2
PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base |
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.05.02 22:36:00 -
[111]
Sometimes it's so much better just to let people learn things for themselves. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.05.04 09:03:00 -
[112]
have a corp mate sitting at station ready to blow em up when they warp back to base common think smarter guys ( or take a corp mate cloaked into youre mission he can just uncloak use a nano ship) when the guy flashes red from looting blow him ( me up) tho ive had one suicde attack in 3 weeks, hats off to the dude for killing my expensive cov ops ship while loosing his domi)
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Wolf Simon
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Posted - 2007.05.04 10:12:00 -
[113]
Everyone who thinks that, werck is neutral, try to destroy one, whitch belongs to someone else in sec space... Salvaging should have the same restrictions like looting.
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ZentorUk
Dark Marauders
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Posted - 2007.06.21 10:10:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Wolf Simon Everyone who thinks that, werck is neutral, try to destroy one, whitch belongs to someone else in sec space... Salvaging should have the same restrictions like looting.
AGREE!
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Artemis Dragmire
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Posted - 2007.06.21 10:51:00 -
[115]
I have no problem if CCP wants to make it possible for people to salvage my wrecks... BUT if I see someone salvaging my stuff I want the rights to shoot him in empire space.
It only makes sense, as that conversation posted earlier proves. As it is right now people can harass other players without any fear of repurcussion.
I'll second the question by another poster:
If eve is a PVP game (which it is) why can't I defend stuff that I have rightfully 'killed'?
I'm all for lowsec ratting, but if I'm running missions in empire space I would expect that if someone is ballsy enough to steal the rig parts from my wrecks that I would be able to shoot them down.
I think an ability to lay 'claim' to wrecks for say... 30 minutes (or longer if you want to make it a trainable skill) would be perfect. Make it like the open seas... if you find a wrecked ship and there is nobody staking a claim... you can put down your 'flag' so to speak and then it's yours for X amount of time.
The 'ninjas' can still take wrecks if people are too lazy to claim them.. but if they're claimed then the person that claimed them should get aggro on the person that salvaged. I would see that as only fair.
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Bambi
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Posted - 2007.06.21 11:15:00 -
[116]
Toys back in the pram
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Malitest
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Posted - 2007.06.21 16:35:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Callthetruth ill piont to wow where theres no risk just a boring NPC grind
And just how are you at risk slavaging other peoples wrecks in high sec os you risk lover? WoW anyone? Might be you that should go play it as you seem to like the low risk for yourself part.
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Ivorwen
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Posted - 2007.06.21 16:49:00 -
[118]
Relatively new to this game, I do salvage any wrecks lying around it helps keep space tidy . Salvage is salvage, Loot is loot the current system is sensible. I find loads of unlooted wrecks lying around mining barges these are hardly ever looted by the mining barge owner let alone salvaged. If, however, the player that produced the wreck is around just ask their permission to salvage if they say its ok, no problem, if they say no, then the salvager has a choice
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Brazero
Amarr Noble House
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Posted - 2007.06.21 16:56:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Marquis Dean
Originally by: Belmarduk The wreck is MINE - I killed the ship
The wreck is not yours. You need to accept that. CCP isn't going to change it.
How the hell do you know this, are you just another CCP alt
Quote: <tuxford> Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums.
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aaron 619
Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.21 17:03:00 -
[120]
OK, I have taken the time to read over most of the post in this thread and both side have some vary good points.
That said, I feel that wrecks should be able to be salvaged by any one with out fear of agro timer.
my points are as follow
-salvaging is more like mining then any thing else. The wreck is the roid. -most wrecks that get left behind, stay there until some one else takes them or they pop. (what a wast) -why if the wreck was just left there should I have to fear taking it. (bait trap,yarrrr)
Sell your minerals on the market! Don't settle for what others WANT to pay you! Miners are the ones that control Sale price! |
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justcheckingthemarket
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Posted - 2007.06.21 18:14:00 -
[121]
ahhhhh, who started this all over again, shame on you, necro!!!
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Loraque
Minmatar The Dragons Angel
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Posted - 2007.06.22 01:47:00 -
[122]
I like the system as it stands, with one exception.
Simply put, if you can salvage the wreckage you should be able to tractor it. That would of course only be wreckage with no loot in it (or your own loot).
this is the only real flaw I see with the system.
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Naverum
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Posted - 2007.06.22 06:08:00 -
[123]
I like to put a perspective/idea out here. It perhaps has nothing to do with wrecks.
I came to the asteroid first, I shove my mining laser in it FIRST! This roid is rightfully mine, you shoving your mining laser into my rock should allow me to shoot you rightfully, I used (almost no) hard work to find this rock, and I will not stand by watching you stealing my mine-to-be ore!
Please let me attack my asteroid thief without being concorded, PLEASE!
Ya, I am not really a miner, by the way for all you who think I am crazy.
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bellator militaris
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Posted - 2007.06.22 11:20:00 -
[124]
Main Entry: 1sal+vage Pronunciation: \ˈsal-vij\ Function: noun Etymology: French, from Middle French, from salver to save ù more at save Date: 1645 1 a: compensation paid for saving a ship or its cargo from the perils of the sea or for the lives and property rescued in a wreck b: the act of saving or rescuing a ship or its cargo c: the act of saving or rescuing property in danger (as from fire) 2 a: property saved from destruction in a calamity (as a wreck or fire) b: something extracted (as from rubbish) as valuable or useful Since so many pilots have so many interesting ideas I thought I would explore the dictionary.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Cadien Cybernetics
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Posted - 2007.06.22 13:41:00 -
[125]
Flag thieves when you're on the same grid. Free for all otherwise. No stupid timer or whatnot.
Presence should be required.
If you're there, it's yours. If you leave the place, others can take the stuff.
_________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well.. - |
Satura
Caldari Mucho Dolor The Insomniacs
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Posted - 2007.09.12 08:51:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Satura on 12/09/2007 08:53:02
Originally by: Callthetruth
Originally by: Humwawa *sigh* Then something is not logic and/or wrong.
I killed the ship - The items in the ship belong to me but the wreck doesnt??? Wheres the logic in that?
This person who is salvaging my (not my whatever wreck) is using highsec as protection (he is griefing me) If I cannot legitamtly fight a griefer it turns into harrasment...
As I said I have np that it is possible (even in highsec that someone can scan me and then loot wrecks which I(!) have only killed 30 sec ago)BUT I cant attack this player?!
This person knows this and does it BECAUSE he/she knows he/she is safe because not criminally flagged.......... This illogical - has NOTHING to do with pvp-orientated game - is an exploit in my eyes !! Everything has risk/reward in eve - and thats how it should be in eve,but this is ZERO risk and only ****es people off.
youer use of the word grief is wrong. Join a corp ( u havent) and get some assistance have someone come in thats friendly to u and salvage-loot youre wrecks. I know because i scan down and salvage-loot other ppls missions for a profitable living yes i do loose ships when ppl blow me up and im quite ok to have that element in the game they blow me up due to my own greed-slow reaction then so be it
Wow, you lose a vigil or other cheap t1 frig once in a while, when you are dumb enough to loot something. And gain tens of millions. I see one or two month old players when i do missions with me. When they steal something they might pop, but most of the times they just salvage every fricking pocket i clear with 0 risk. GG. I just want to be able to shoot them to pieces even if they don't loot, and only salvage.
Don't really care that some leave the wrecks and just start another mission and those wrecks get wasted. I salvage almost everything because i like to make my own rigs for pvp ships. Maybe that's why i care about MY wrecks.
If you are about to say "Because the wrecks are not yours" don't bother, that was said 10000 times before, and i consider them my wrecks .
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Koppite
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Posted - 2007.09.12 09:53:00 -
[127]
salvage is there for the taking.. ill take salvage off mission runners as long as they are npc corps....
if u dont like your salvage being 'salvaged' (not stolen) then salvage once popped..if not deal with it..coz i aint gonna stop and ccp arent going to change it.
happy salvaging
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ViolenTUK
Gallente Vindicated Exiles 3asy Company
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Posted - 2007.09.12 11:13:00 -
[128]
Anyone should be able to salvage a wreck. Salvage rights.
www.eve-players.com |
Vanlade
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.09.12 17:35:00 -
[129]
no - Vanlade
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Yoinx
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.09.12 18:48:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Yoinx on 12/09/2007 18:49:39 I have to agree, and disagree with a few of the posts I've read here. Wrecks belong to the last person to shoot it before it popped. This is why you cannot loot them without getting an aggression countdown. I believe salvaging wrecks should also give an aggression countdown. For one reason. The ninja salvagers could still scan you out and salvage your wrecks while you're fighting the mission as they do now sometimes. Otherwise, yes... I feel you should be able to attack someone that is salvaging your wrecks. These wrecks belong to the player, and thus the other playing is stealing the salvage that could be sold.
Bottom line. Looting or salvaging someone elses' wreck should win you an aggression countdown as long as you're in the grid, if you arent... the other person should be able to loot it and salvage it with no consequence. Either way the person who owns the wreck is losing potential isk, thus it's essentially stealing either way. But I do feel people should be able to salvage them, and make the choice if they dont mind the agression countdown.
- I wish I had something witty to put in a signature. - |
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Taelech
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Posted - 2007.09.12 22:21:00 -
[131]
In maritime law, anyone may salvage. Once a ship is in distress from perils of the sea (or in EVE - space) the ship is free for someone to save. There is a way to keep people from salvaging the wrecks you create. Salvage them first. I know someone is going to compare the loot to the salvage materials and say that there is an inconsistancy... and there may be but the loot could be viewed as prize. Prize may only be claimed by the victor of a battle. Prize consists of functional equipment (usually an entire ship, but not always). Salvage is not usable in its current condition, something must be done to restore it to functionality (pumped out, towed, ect...) The system works for now, I'm sure if it gets too bad, CCP will change the laws.
Taelech - Professor emeritus, Caldari Business Tribunal School of Law
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Argus Kell
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2007.09.12 22:49:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Rali Redclaw Back on topic.
You guys are thinking of it in out-of-game context.
In the game world, what is a wreck? It is a piece of worthless junk, a ruined ship cast aside. Why would CONCORD spend their time to defend destroyed ships? It only has value because CCP created a new skill for salvaging so it is possibly valuable to YOU.
Ship cargo is different in that it is still intact and thusly has value to the original owner.
If you're so concerned with your wrecks, clean them up while you're on the mission.
I was almost in favour of this petition until I read this post. This is an absolutely accurate description of how a large corporate entity would work in a universe like Eve's.
"Don't touch that loot, he earnt it by getting rid of a pirate" "Sure, feel free to scrap the trash littering our space"
Ultimately, this is just how it is, and while I can understand from a technical perspective that there is a lot of cash being lost to 'salvage-jackers' they are in fact exploiting not a loop hole in the game, but a loop hole in the game world. Which is more than acceptable in my opinion because that is immersive. I've watched many an MMO go down the pan because it tried to suit the technical issues all too much and the RP issues all too little and ended up becoming a myriad of half implemented and overburdened features.
If you're that bothered... moved to a different sector (not necessarily low sec) to get away from these people you consider 'griefers'. I've been playing a new character for about three months and not once have I experienced someone taking the salvage from my wrecks.
So to summarise... from a technical perspective, you're not wrong. There is an inconsistency. From a game perspective - Theres no feasible reason for Concord to change the policy. I choose the game perspective because it favours a continuity in the game world over a continuity in the game mechanics.
Thats my two cents anyway ;o)
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.09.12 22:54:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Satura I just want to be able to shoot them to pieces even if they don't loot, and only salvage.
In other words, you want to grief the T1 Vigil pilot with your CNR.
Tough guy. I bet you suck in bed, too.
-- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.09.12 23:04:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 12/09/2007 23:04:29
Originally by: Yoinx I have to agree, and disagree with a few of the posts I've read here. Wrecks belong to the last person to shoot it before it popped.
No, the contents of the can within the wreck belong to the guy who shot it down. The wreck itself belongs to no one.
Quote: These wrecks belong to the player, and thus the other playing is stealing the salvage that could be sold.
It is impossible to have a productive discussion with someone like you who uses a private dictionary. Theft is an act with a clear definition in EVE. CONCORD grants you the right to attack someone who steals from you. I don't get flagged for claiming salvage, so it isn't theft. It can't be. I'd get a criminal flag if it was. But I don't. So it isn't.
Quote: Either way the person who owns the wreck is losing potential isk, thus it's essentially stealing either way.
Under EVE's definition of ownership, no one owns the wreck, no one gets a criminal flag for claiming salvage, so it cannot be stealing. I'm talking about game mechanics here, not RL morality. So don't bother going there.
Quote:
But I do feel people should be able to salvage them, and make the choice if they dont mind the agression countdown.
We already can. And do. And will keep doing it as long as game mechanics remain as they are. That defines what is legal and moral in the EVE universe.
-- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
Rascal Peterson
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Posted - 2007.09.13 01:12:00 -
[135]
In the real world of maritime salvage, it is he who finds gets to keep it...but out of courtesy, I always ask if they mind if I salvage their kills...
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Lev Arris
Riverstone Corp
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Posted - 2007.09.13 11:08:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Lev Arris on 13/09/2007 11:08:06 Even if CCP are going to change this, miners waited _years_ for can flagging so I wouldn't hold your breath
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Yoinx
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.09.13 15:20:00 -
[137]
Edited by: Yoinx on 13/09/2007 15:24:54
Originally by: Guillame Herschel No, the contents of the can within the wreck belong to the guy who shot it down. The wreck itself belongs to no one.
Maybe you should try clicking on someone else's wreck, and checking to see if your name shows up on it. Then you can say nobody owns it. Assuming there's no name attached to the wreck. You cannot divide a wreck's cargo from the wreck itself. If it was supposed to be there would be a wreck and a can when the ship popped. With the can being yellow and the wreck being up for grabs. I say this because even a ship ,with no cargo, popped by someone else will still be yellow and show the person's name; indicating ownership. The game knows there is no cargo in that wreck. Thus the bottom arrow in the wreck symbol either being clear (no loot) or solid white (loot). If the loot can was all that belongs to the player, the ships without loot should not be yellow or show as being owned by a player.
And I know people are going to say "but the arrow is indicating the loot can". When was the last time you've seen a non-glitched empty loot can? Every wreck cant be glitched to have an empty loot can in it.
*edit*
Personally, i only even salvage some missions. Assuming I'm bored and have time to kill. I'll offer the loot and salvage up in the corp chat, or local half the time. So these guys don't really bother me. My argument is purely based on things I see in the game, that indicate ownership yet contradict that ownership. When people salvage the wrecks, it will still pop out a yellow can with the loot, so you're not losing the loot anyway. My entire point is, if the wreck is going to have your name, you own it. If you own it, you own the salvage. If they dont want you to own it. They should seperate the loot into a can from the wreck when it pops, make the can yellow, and attach your name. And leave the wreck unattached, and up for grabs.
Thats just my 2 cents.
- I wish I had something witty to put in a signature. - |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.09.13 16:28:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 13/09/2007 16:29:12
It seems clear to me that the npc wreck is assigned to the player who killed it only to allow tractoring and to prevent the malicious destruction of it (and it's loot and salvage) by other players. I can only imagine the complaining that would ensue if that weren't the case.
In any case, ownership of the wreck itself rather than it's contents is moot otherwise, since nobody, including the owner, can take it anywhere, nor does it have any value separate from its contents and any salvage that can be extracted from it.
edit: this is in response to the post above * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Yoinx
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.09.13 19:45:00 -
[139]
Tsanse Kinske, I agree with you on the point of why it's assigned. My problem with it, is that it implies ownership. For instance when you attempt to tractor a wreck that isn't yours. It says something along the lines of "You cannot tractor this wreck since it does not belong to you." I would take this as the person owning the wreck. Yet, you only seem to have partial ownership since people can still salvage it. Personally, I think they should either have full ownership or none at all. But like you said, people would probably whine too much if other people could salvage AND tractor their wrecks.
- I wish I had something witty to put in a signature. - |
EvilSpork
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Posted - 2007.09.13 23:40:00 -
[140]
Edited by: EvilSpork on 13/09/2007 23:43:26
Originally by: Callthetruth youer use of the word grief is wrong. Join a corp ( u havent) and get some assistance have someone come in thats friendly to u and salvage-loot youre wrecks. I know because i scan down and salvage-loot other ppls missions for a profitable living yes i do loose ships when ppl blow me up and im quite ok to have that element in the game they blow me up due to my own greed-slow reaction then so be it[/quote
FFS its YOUR not YOUER or YOURE. think about it when its NOT a compound word... you are use of words... have someone salvage you are loot..???
also, your ships are not tight? you loosen them up? explain how to loose a ship? or did you mean LOSE? as in a loss?
use some proper freaking gammer and word choice people!!! i dont care about using capitalization, use of apostrophes or even spelling, but use the bloody proper word!!!
theyre over there with their friends...
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.09.13 23:52:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 13/09/2007 23:53:28
Originally by: Yoinx Edited by: Yoinx on 13/09/2007 15:24:54
Originally by: Guillame Herschel No, the contents of the can within the wreck belong to the guy who shot it down. The wreck itself belongs to no one.
Maybe you should try clicking on someone else's wreck, and checking to see if your name shows up on it. Then you can say nobody owns it.
OK, fine. The SALVAGE in the wreck is owned by no one until a salvage module claims it. That the wreck is flagged with an owner is a side-effect of the fact that salvage was added after can looting, so the wrecks stands in for the can, until the wreck is gone.
Happy now? Didn't think so.
-- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.09.13 23:53:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 13/09/2007 23:53:56
Originally by: EvilSpork Edited by: EvilSpork on 13/09/2007 23:43:26
Originally by: Callthetruth
youer use of the word grief is wrong. Join a corp ( u havent) and get some assistance have someone come in thats friendly to u and salvage-loot youre wrecks. I know because i scan down and salvage-loot other ppls missions for a profitable living yes i do loose ships when ppl blow me up and im quite ok to have that element in the game they blow me up due to my own greed-slow reaction then so be it
FFS its YOUR not YOUER or YOURE. think about it when its NOT a compound word... you are use of words... have someone salvage you are loot..???
also, your ships are not tight? you loosen them up? explain how to loose a ship? or did you mean LOSE? as in a loss?
use some proper freaking gammer and word choice people!!! i dont care about using capitalization, use of apostrophes or even spelling, but use the bloody proper word!!!
theyre over there with their friends...
Seems a bit silly to flame somebody over something that not only has nothing to do with the topic, but also was written five months ago. But hey, hope you feel better for having gotten that out.
By the way, "it's" not "its". * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Sainna
Minmatar Brotherhood of the Void
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Posted - 2007.09.14 14:47:00 -
[143]
Quote: How can it be possible that people can get away with that? Now before anyone tells me go to low sec - this is NOT what its about!
If someone scans me in highsec during a mission and then salvages my wrecks - so be it. BUT If I cant attack him without getting concorded this is plain stupid and has NOTHING to do with pvp-orientated. In my eyes this is only exploiting. CCP PLEASE fix ASAP
I agree with the original post. Wreck thieves should be flagged. It's my mission, I blew it up, and I have every intention of looting and salvaging the wreck. I don't care about the game mechanics in this. I worked to get the salvage, not the surat thief. If wreck thieves want to salvage...get your own mission and salvage.
If the thief wants to fly in and salvage it at the risk of being flagged and blown up, then he can have it if he makes it out alive. Of course I don't mind having a ship loaded with Smartbombs to thwart thieves ...even if I get Concorded the pod-kill will be worth it.
At the chance of not wanting to salvage anything then let there be an option where we can allow someone salvage rights, otherwise they should be flagged.
Is there a petition out for this? I'd like to sign it.
Drill Instructor: "If your nature didn't lead you to trample everyone in your path with vindictive glee, you might be tolerable. |
EvilSpork
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Posted - 2007.09.14 15:54:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Seems a bit silly to flame somebody over something that not only has nothing to do with the topic, but also was written five months ago. But hey, hope you feel better for having gotten that out.
By the way, "it's" not "its".
hehe yeah i do feel better. like i was saying apostrophes dont bug me much. theyre = they're to me. its = it's for the most part, at least its spelled the same
as for the topic, salvaging someone else's kill should be a flag in high/low sec. 0.0 is just a free for all.
salvaging wrecks from another corp in high sec = agression flag. just like looting a can.
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ollobrains
Mission Invasion Squad
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Posted - 2007.09.15 10:47:00 -
[145]
ive been doing this a lot tbh looting hsa more profit ( and the flag risk)
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SilentSentinel
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Posted - 2007.09.15 11:46:00 -
[146]
To the OP,
Salvaging wrecks by other players is apart of the game mechanics and will cause problems with some people. Getting mad over the situation won't resolve the problem. Start thinking outside the box if you will.
I'm starting to have some fun/entertainment with wreck looters. When one comes into my mission and starts going after a wreck, I just shoot the wreck he/she is going after. Eventually, the wreck looter will leave.
Cheers
SS
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Asmodean Reborn
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Posted - 2007.09.15 12:06:00 -
[147]
Well, I've read almost every post, but I still stick to my original thoughts. Have people flagged for salvaging/looting only if they are on the same grid.
Just say I'm on l4 Blockade (really nice salvage) in high-sec. Midway through the mission someone unknown warps into the mission area. If they try to loot/salvage my wrecks they will get flagged and I can shoot them. If they want to salvage, they bookmark the spot and wait until I leave to hand in the mission. Ninja salvager can then begin doing what he likes as I'm not on the same grid - so he won't get flagged (but he'll have to quit if I return to salvage as he'll get flagged). If I want to make sure I get to salvage my own wrecks, I can stay in the mission area and ask a corpmate to join me and sit there while I hand in the mission and change ships. This way the ninja salvager can't do anything without being flagged to my corp (unless he likes the idea of risk).
I've seen loads of definitions of ownership etc, but at the end of the day, I killed it so it's mine. If I hadn't killed it he'd have nothing to salvage.
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Brother Lev
Amarr Torps For Tots
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Posted - 2007.09.15 13:22:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Brother Lev on 15/09/2007 13:24:14
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_salvage
Particular parts to be quoted for emphasis:
"'Salvors' are seamen and engineers who carry out salvage to vessels that are not owned by themselves."
"Another reason for salvage may be to prevent pollution or damage to the marine environment. Alternatively the vessel or valuable parts of the vessel or its cargo may be recovered for its resale value, or for scrap."
"When a ship or boat has been rescued or salvaged without prior agreement between the owner and salvor or an agreement is made but not for a fixed amount, this is known as pure salvage. In this case the salvor can legally claim recompense or a salvage claim."
"Prior to a salvage attempt the salvor receives permission from the owner or the master to assist the vessel. If the vessel is abandoned no permission is needed." (if you leave a belt to get your salvage ship, guess what I'm considering this abandoned)
-Lev Overseer Khanid Industrial Disposal Service "We Turn Your Mess into someone else's just reward"
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Satura
Caldari Mucho Dolor The Insomniacs
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Posted - 2007.09.15 13:50:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Originally by: Satura I just want to be able to shoot them to pieces even if they don't loot, and only salvage.
In other words, you want to grief the T1 Vigil pilot with your CNR.
Tough guy. I bet you suck in bed, too.
Lmao dude, how would that be griefing? He runs around me while i still kill rats, and salvages stuff. And no, it's not a cnr. Every time i see one of these guys in my mission, i dock asap and get out in a claw or stiletto. If they are blinking red when i come back, they pop, if not...i am going nuts. That's just not normal imo. Either way you put it, it kinda sucks to be the dude who runs the mission. |
Slade Trillgon
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Posted - 2007.10.03 15:32:00 -
[150]
Here is my view. Gameing aside, just because you kill someone does not automatically give you rights over there possessions. If you want soemthing then take it before you leave the area, it is not our fault you have not the cargo space to haul everything. If you loose it before you finsihed fighting the killem quicker. Kill does not equal rights to property, therefore I think that one should be able to loot and salvage any wreakage. That being said, I think a time limit could be employed to give people some time to get to the wreaks and do their buisness, but if you leave the area do not expect to find what you left when you come back. I hate flying into an area and seeing 10-15 un-looted ships or containers and/or wreakages and not one active ship. In a game where pirating and smuggling is there then you can expect thieving. That is what I think; and who says that really means siht.
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OBeE1
Mission Running Manwhores
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Posted - 2007.10.03 16:20:00 -
[151]
Edited by: OBeE1 on 03/10/2007 16:29:41
Originally by: Taelech In maritime law, anyone may salvage.
Jam your maritime law up your maritime ass. Back in the days of yore, i doubt concord would show up and wtfpwn your face if you tried to kill someone stealing your salvage.
Its griefing, ccp obviously let it go on because they hate noobie mission runners, just like they let suicide gankers get insurance on there ships because they hate noobie expensive loot haulers.
Exploits win eve.
editz> btw, what ive been doing is just blowing up my wrecks when i see em ninja salvaging, who can be arsed waiting 9438234778423 minutes for the salvager 1 to tell u no salvage found (not me).
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.03 16:46:00 -
[152]
From Prism X:
Quote:
If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former.
You can read the thread HERE
Simply, Salvaging is a mini-profession, it is not a mission runner's entitlement program.
If you have problems with people salvaging your junk laying around move to a less populated system.
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
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hermot
Amarr Shadow Monkeys
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Posted - 2007.10.04 11:52:00 -
[153]
Tis annoying yes, but someone brought the point up of the Wreck not being yours... They are right.
The Loot, is yours. Anything nice inside the loot, also yours.. The wreck? The thing you just blew up owned that so i guess that belongs to the npc pirate corp your griefing..
Greets
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.10.04 12:02:00 -
[154]
At all the stuff. No.
One pretty easy reason too. Anyone can take loot from a can. Not everyone can salvage a wreck. Sure, it doesnt take much to be able to (damn the skillnerf! Should've stayed at the crazy lvl 5 skills) but There's still a chance you cant salvage it. Should not prevent someone else from doing it.
Improve Market Competition!
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annoing
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.10.04 13:06:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Marquis Dean They aren't your wrecks. They belong to the player (or NPC in this case) that owned the ship that created the wreck.
Ninja salvaging is a legitimate profession, and has turned out exactly how CCP wanted.
Deal with it.
True, oh so true
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Dark Divinities
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:43:00 -
[156]
Salvaging other people's mission WHILE they are doing it (the wrecks weren't abandoned) should be a criminal act.
Salvaging wrecks left to rot by someone with no interest or skills in salvaging should be fair game.
Why is this so difficult for people to comprehend?
CCP?
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Psychedelic Party Stellar Economy Experts
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:14:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Dark Divinities Salvaging other people's mission WHILE they are doing it (the wrecks weren't abandoned) should be a criminal act.
Salvaging wrecks left to rot by someone with no interest or skills in salvaging should be fair game.
Why is this so difficult for people to comprehend?
CCP?
How does the Eve code determine the difference? Obviously they could see if the missioner was still in the deadspace. What about when the missioner leaves with the intent to come back in his salvager. To the code it could easily look like he left the wreck to rot. How about rats in belts. I'm mining in my Osprey and take out 5 rats with my drones/missiles as I continue mining. How long does Eve wait before those wrecks become "free-for-alls"? How does Eve know that after I'm done mining I plan on coming back to salvage the wrecks?
No, salvaging other people's wrecks either needs to be a criminal act all the time, or none of the time. ------------------- 4 8 15 16 23 42 108 |
Dark Divinities
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:44:00 -
[158]
Clearly, CCP could implement a timer system to clearly identify if it would be "criminal" or not. They already have a timer before wrecks decay so modify it and say 15 min (or some reasonable time frame) wreck is yellow to people not in Gang or Corp/Alliance or whatever... and then after "reserved time" wreck becomes white to all.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.10.04 17:13:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Dark Divinities Salvaging other people's mission WHILE they are doing it (the wrecks weren't abandoned) should be a criminal act.
Salvaging wrecks left to rot by someone with no interest or skills in salvaging should be fair game.
Why is this so difficult for people to comprehend?
It's not that we don't comprehend it. It's that we don't agree.
* * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Dark Divinities
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Posted - 2007.10.04 17:33:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
It's not that we don't comprehend it. It's that we don't agree.
I guess. And yet no one can articulate a coherant argument as to WHY it should not be criminal.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.10.04 18:08:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 04/10/2007 18:07:53
Originally by: Dark Divinities
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
It's not that we don't comprehend it. It's that we don't agree.
I guess. And yet no one can articulate a coherant argument as to WHY it should not be criminal.
What the hell, are you trolling? If not, just read the stupid thread.
Unless by "coherant" [sic] you mean "an argument that doesn't disagree with Dark Divinities." * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Garat Mant
Minmatar Moons of Pluto
|
Posted - 2007.10.04 18:20:00 -
[162]
not signed.
Don't give in to the vocal minority, CCP.
-G --
CEO, Moons Of Pluto industrial corporation. Contact us in game for ice/rock mining contracts and manufacturing. |
Dark Divinities
|
Posted - 2007.10.04 18:24:00 -
[163]
No, I'm not "Trolling".
What I meant by "Coherant" is that it has to be logical or make sense in some way, not that it has to agree with my view on the matter.
The only argument that people keep making, in terms of allowing salvaging is that the "wreck" doesn't belong to the mission runner (or whoever killed), only the contents do.
The problem with this theory is that you can't fire on a wreck I created and destroy it without flagging criminal but I can, so obviously there's a game mechanic that recognizes "ownership" on some level. You also can't tractor beam "my" wreck but I can... same story. You can't take the contents of the wreck without flagging criminal, but you can DEMOLISH the wreck entirely through Salvaging without flagging.
That is (IMHO) a clear contridiction to all other game mechanics involving wrecks and ownership.
I understand that this was implemented by CCP because people were leaving wrecks and then ambushing salvagers (according to a post linked earlier) but putting a reasonable timer on all wrecks would remove this problem entirely without breaking the game mechanic of wreck ownership, and allow mission runners or rat killers first opportunity to salvage "their" wrecks an then open the wreck to free-for-all if it's abandoned.
Now someone, please tell me, in lucid argument, how the current set up is not broken and open to abuse by griefers.
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Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.10.04 19:24:00 -
[164]
Originally by: hermot Tis annoying yes, but someone brought the point up of the Wreck not being yours... They are right.
The Loot, is yours. Anything nice inside the loot, also yours.. The wreck? The thing you just blew up owned that so i guess that belongs to the npc pirate corp your griefing..
Greets
Funny, how I can tractor the wreck, yet the thieves cannot. Seems to me that makes it mine. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
pandymen
Caldari Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
|
Posted - 2007.10.04 19:27:00 -
[165]
Honestly, 99% of the people who are against ninja salvaging in this thread really aren't thinking things through. What are you going to do exactly to the person that is nabbing your wrecks? You are going to attack them in your mission fitted raven?
Do that, and they will warp away, grab a battleship, come back and pwn your face. Honestly, you can't do anything about it even if they do get flagged....so just concede the point.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.10.04 20:24:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Dark Divinities No, I'm not "Trolling".
What I meant by "Coherant" is that it has to be logical or make sense in some way, not that it has to agree with my view on the matter.
The only argument that people keep making, in terms of allowing salvaging is that the "wreck" doesn't belong to the mission runner (or whoever killed), only the contents do.
The problem with this theory is that you can't fire on a wreck I created and destroy it without flagging criminal but I can, so obviously there's a game mechanic that recognizes "ownership" on some level. You also can't tractor beam "my" wreck but I can... same story. You can't take the contents of the wreck without flagging criminal, but you can DEMOLISH the wreck entirely through Salvaging without flagging.
The wreck itself isn't important though. Nobody's ever put a wreck in their cargohold or sold one on the market. See page 2.
Quote: That is (IMHO) a clear contridiction to all other game mechanics involving wrecks and ownership.
There's only one mechanic it contradicts, that of NPC loot. Consider player wrecks: the loot belongs to the victim, not to the killer. Now tell me which mechanic is out of place, npc salvage, npc loot, or ??? Not that I'm arguing that NPC loot rules be changed either, just that " a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
Quote: I understand that this was implemented by CCP because people were leaving wrecks and then ambushing salvagers
You misunderstood, flagging itself hasn't changed.
Quote: ...putting a reasonable timer on all wrecks would remove this problem entirely without breaking the game mechanic of wreck ownership, and allow mission runners or rat killers first opportunity to salvage "their" wrecks an then open the wreck to free-for-all if it's abandoned.
You already have first opportunity, or did you forget that you don't have to probe down mission sites? You choose not to take advantage of your headstart.
Quote: Now someone, please tell me, in lucid argument, how the current set up is not broken
Salvage is not loot, and isn't produced by blowing up ships. It's produced by whoever takes the time and use the modules and skills to extract it. In other words, salvage belongs to the salvager. Nice and tidy, eh? You can argue all you want whether this is the best possible system, whether it's fair or unfair, good or bad, but please don't argue it's incoherent.
Quote: and open to abuse by griefers.
I doubt you're interested, but to be griefing in this game it has to be maliciously aimed specifically at the player, not the player's character, at no particular profit to the person doing it. Probing out the salvage of random players fails both those criteria.
What you mean by griefing is "Somebody doing something that Dark Divinities doesn't like." Welcome to EVE, friend.
* * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.10.04 20:37:00 -
[167]
Originally by: pandymen Honestly, 99% of the people who are against ninja salvaging in this thread really aren't thinking things through. What are you going to do exactly to the person that is nabbing your wrecks? You are going to attack them in your mission fitted raven?
Do that, and they will warp away, grab a battleship, come back and pwn your face. Honestly, you can't do anything about it even if they do get flagged....so just concede the point.
We're not as dumb as you think, but I'm not going to elaborate. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.10.04 21:05:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Quote: I understand that this was implemented by CCP because people were leaving wrecks and then ambushing salvagers
You misunderstood, flagging itself hasn't changed.
No he didn't. The flagging was changed as he says. Salvaging originally flagged you.
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske You already have first opportunity, or did you forget that you don't have to probe down mission sites? You choose not to take advantage of your headstart.
Yeah, I'm so going to stop firing in my mission running ship, go get a salvaging destroyer and salvage each wreck individually after each kill.
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Salvage is not loot, and isn't produced by blowing up ships.
That's news to me. What are you pulling salvage from then?
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske It's produced by whoever takes the time and use the modules and skills to extract it.
That's weird, I take the time and use modules and skills to extract it, but it's a bit difficult to extract it from empty space where my wrecks were.
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske You can argue all you want whether this is the best possible system, whether it's fair or unfair, good or bad, but please don't argue it's incoherent.
That doesn't even make sense. You can argue, but pelse don't argue?
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske I doubt you're interested, but to be griefing in this game it has to be maliciously aimed specifically at the player, not the player's character, at no particular profit to the person doing it. Probing out the salvage of random players fails both those criteria.
Uhh....you just made that definition up. And since when is griefing not allowed to be profitable?
Besides, I think this and this is pretty obvious evidence of malicious intent.
Only on the forums do the thieves make any claim to it being a mini-profession. In game it's all grief and bragging in local. You're not fooling anyone. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.10.04 21:13:00 -
[169]
If you guys really just wanted the wrecks then you'd run your own missions to create them. It's far more efficient since you can tractor them. Oh wait, you'd have to fend off salvage thieves too. Now I get it.
Go salvage in the belts around miners. I don't think they would care. Oh wait, you're not causing anyone any grief that way, my mistake. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
|
Posted - 2007.10.04 21:49:00 -
[170]
Quote: No he didn't. The flagging was changed as he says. Salvaging originally flagged you.
No, not really. What happened was that it was impossible to salvage while there was still loot in the wreck.
Quote: Yeah, I'm so going to stop firing in my mission running ship, go get a salvaging destroyer and salvage each wreck individually after each kill.
Friends, alts, and get out of Motsu, Xaen.
Quote: That's news to me. What are you pulling salvage from then?
Personally? ArcSal cans, mainly. Most people mine it from wrecks though. But as you know, I was comparing loot and salvage. The first is produced by ship destruction, the second has yet to be produced, or "mined" from the wreck.
Quote:
That's weird, I take the time and use modules and skills to extract it, but it's a bit difficult to extract it from empty space where my wrecks were.
Again, get out of Motsu, Xaen. You'll make more isk, you'll be happier, and maybe those ulcers you're getting from this game will settle down a bit.
Quote:
That doesn't even make sense. You can argue, but pelse don't argue?
That was specifically addressed to the person saying nobody had put together any arguments saying why salvage shouldn't be flagged. In other words, call my arguments crap if you'd like, tell us why you think they're crap, but don't pretend I haven't made them.
Quote:
Uhh....you just made that definition up.
No, the exact words are mine, but the basic definition is one GMs use, and you can find it referred to officially on the site from time to time. For instance, see the FAQ: http://www.eve-online.com/faq/faq_12.asp * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
|
syphurous
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.04 22:17:00 -
[171]
My god Xaen, go find something else to whine about instead of posting everywhere with your "issue". ___
Too Many Anchored Cans |
Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.10.04 22:35:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Friends, alts, and get out of Motsu, Xaen.
Eat me.
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske No, the exact words are mine, but the basic definition is one GMs use, and you can find it referred to officially on the site from time to time. For instance, see the FAQ: http://www.eve-online.com/faq/faq_12.asp
The FAQ you cited makes no mention of profit having anything to do with griefing. Which was my whole point.
I have several ways of dealing with salvage and loot thieves. Some combination of which invariably results in me coming out ahead. Just ask Trader Keg.
That doesn't mean I think it's right or that I will stop pushing for it to criminally flag or relent on calling them my wrecks or those stealing them thieves.
I'm well aware that agents in other systems offer level four missions, but agent quality is not why I still operate out of Motsu. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires
|
Posted - 2007.10.04 23:32:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Dark Divinities I guess. And yet no one can articulate a coherant argument as to WHY it should not be criminal.
Because the salvaging profession in EVE is trying to create new game play that mimics salvaging in real life. No one owns salvage in real life until they claim it by taking possession of it. Same here. Pretty simple idea, really, even a chlid can understand it.
Finders keepers - losers weepers.
Remember?
-- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires
|
Posted - 2007.10.04 23:35:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Xaen I'm well aware that agents in other systems offer level four missions, but agent quality is not why I still operate out of Motsu.
Motsu is prime salavge-claimer territory. Getting visited by a salvage-claimer is way more common on Motsu than anywhere else. You accept this by choosing to remain in Motsu. Therefore, your reasons for remaining in Motsu are more important to you than not competing for salvage claims. So stop whining. You made your choice, stop being a child and live with it, or change it.
-- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.10.05 01:09:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Originally by: Dark Divinities I guess. And yet no one can articulate a coherant argument as to WHY it should not be criminal.
Because the salvaging profession in EVE is trying to create new game play that mimics salvaging in real life. No one owns salvage in real life until they claim it by taking possession of it. Same here. Pretty simple idea, really, even a chlid can understand it.
Sort of. It falls short one very, very important point.
In the real world, if someone attempts to salvage your stuff RIGHT UNDER YOUR NOSE, magical teleporting police do not appear and explode you when you defend what is yours.
Originally by: Guillame Herschel Finders keepers - losers weepers.
Remember?
See? Griefing.
----------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.10.05 01:40:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Originally by: Xaen I'm well aware that agents in other systems offer level four missions, but agent quality is not why I still operate out of Motsu.
Motsu is prime salavge-claimer territory. Getting visited by a salvage-claimer is way more common on Motsu than anywhere else. You accept this by choosing to remain in Motsu. Therefore, your reasons for remaining in Motsu are more important to you than not competing for salvage claims. So stop whining. You made your choice, stop being a child and live with it, or change it.
I'm well aware. But why should I not attempt to get CCP to fix what many, many people see as broken? I want my salvage and I want to stay in Motsu. At least I'm not attempting to mask my motives behind bull**** like, "BEEEET SEEEEEELVEEEEEGE EEEEESSS EEEEEE PREEEEEEFEEEEESSSION" (say it in your best cartman voice).
I don't think the intention behind salvage as a mini-profession was ever intended to be used on the active missions of other players. Random rat spawns at belts and gates, sure. Many ratters, especially in 0.0 don't salvage. It makes sense there. But I think most mission runners want their salvage. But I don't think the and lack of risk with which players can scan down and invade the missions of other players was ever intended by CCP. They've openly acknowledged that a large percentage of their player base are carebears and they have, and will continue in the future, to change the game to keep those players. Now, I'm not a total carebear, but at the moment it's how I make my ISK. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
6d7n
|
Posted - 2007.10.05 11:17:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Dark Divinities No, I'm not "Trolling".
What I meant by "Coherant" is that it has to be logical or make sense in some way, not that it has to agree with my view on the matter.
The only argument that people keep making, in terms of allowing salvaging is that the "wreck" doesn't belong to the mission runner (or whoever killed), only the contents do.
The problem with this theory is that you can't fire on a wreck I created and destroy it without flagging criminal but I can, so obviously there's a game mechanic that recognizes "ownership" on some level. You also can't tractor beam "my" wreck but I can... same story. You can't take the contents of the wreck without flagging criminal, but you can DEMOLISH the wreck entirely through Salvaging without flagging.
That is (IMHO) a clear contridiction to all other game mechanics involving wrecks and ownership.
I understand that this was implemented by CCP because people were leaving wrecks and then ambushing salvagers (according to a post linked earlier) but putting a reasonable timer on all wrecks would remove this problem entirely without breaking the game mechanic of wreck ownership, and allow mission runners or rat killers first opportunity to salvage "their" wrecks an then open the wreck to free-for-all if it's abandoned.
Now someone, please tell me, in lucid argument, how the current set up is not broken and open to abuse by griefers.
*signed!
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Psychedelic Party Stellar Economy Experts
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Posted - 2007.10.05 18:26:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 05/10/2007 18:26:47
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Originally by: Dark Divinities I guess. And yet no one can articulate a coherant argument as to WHY it should not be criminal.
Because the salvaging profession in EVE is trying to create new game play that mimics salvaging in real life. No one owns salvage in real life until they claim it by taking possession of it. Same here. Pretty simple idea, really, even a chlid can understand it.
This, while being the main support of "salvage should not flag as criminal" is also the main downfall of the same argument in compared to looting the wrecks. We are trying to compare it to real life salvaging.
So let's look at a real life definition of salvaging:
sal+vage n.
1. The rescue of a ship, its crew, or its cargo from fire or shipwreck. 2. The ship, crew, or cargo so rescued. 3. Compensation given to those who voluntarily aid in such a rescue. 1. The act of saving imperiled property from loss. 2. The property so saved. 3. Something saved from destruction or waste and put to further use.
1. To save from loss or destruction. 2. To save (discarded or damaged material) for further use.
So, in real life, the term "salvage" also applies to what we consider "loot". Note definition one and two: The rescue of a ship, it's crew, or its cargo. The ship, crew or cargo so rescued.
In the game, player B taking cargo from a ship player A downed would flag player B as stealing. This cargo is actually salvage from the ship. So, if you claim that no one owns salvage in real life, that means no one owns loot either, so taking loot from the ship should not flag as stealing.
Really, we have 3 inconsistancies: 1. The cargo of a downed players ship belongs to the victim. 2. The cargo of a downed NPC rat belongs to the player that killed the NPC, not the NPC. 3. The wreck itself, in the form of being salvagable, belongs to no one (but can only be tractor beamed by the "owner"?)
In my common sense of rightness, I personally think these inconsistancies should be changed, whether that means illegaling salvaging or legalizing loot, or making NPC loot belong to the NPCs just like player loot and everyone can take. Whatever CCP thinks is best for the game, do it, but it'd be nice for these inconsistancies to be cleaned up. ------------------- 4 8 15 16 23 42 108 |
Taelech
Caldari ViperCorp VENOM Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.10.05 19:11:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Dretzle Omega Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 05/10/2007 18:26:47
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Originally by: Dark Divinities I guess. And yet no one can articulate a coherant argument as to WHY it should not be criminal.
Because the salvaging profession in EVE is trying to create new game play that mimics salvaging in real life. No one owns salvage in real life until they claim it by taking possession of it. Same here. Pretty simple idea, really, even a chlid can understand it.
This, while being the main support of "salvage should not flag as criminal" is also the main downfall of the same argument in compared to looting the wrecks. We are trying to compare it to real life salvaging.
So let's look at a real life definition of salvaging:
sal+vage n.
1. The rescue of a ship, its crew, or its cargo from fire or shipwreck. 2. The ship, crew, or cargo so rescued. 3. Compensation given to those who voluntarily aid in such a rescue. 1. The act of saving imperiled property from loss. 2. The property so saved. 3. Something saved from destruction or waste and put to further use.
1. To save from loss or destruction. 2. To save (discarded or damaged material) for further use.
So, in real life, the term "salvage" also applies to what we consider "loot". Note definition one and two: The rescue of a ship, it's crew, or its cargo. The ship, crew or cargo so rescued.
In the game, player B taking cargo from a ship player A downed would flag player B as stealing. This cargo is actually salvage from the ship. So, if you claim that no one owns salvage in real life, that means no one owns loot either, so taking loot from the ship should not flag as stealing.
Really, we have 3 inconsistancies: 1. The cargo of a downed players ship belongs to the victim. 2. The cargo of a downed NPC rat belongs to the player that killed the NPC, not the NPC. 3. The wreck itself, in the form of being salvagable, belongs to no one (but can only be tractor beamed by the "owner"?)
In my common sense of rightness, I personally think these inconsistancies should be changed, whether that means illegaling salvaging or legalizing loot, or making NPC loot belong to the NPCs just like player loot and everyone can take. Whatever CCP thinks is best for the game, do it, but it'd be nice for these inconsistancies to be cleaned up.
Wrong, the cargo has to be in peril. The stuff in the cans is not in peril (except perhaps from expiration b/c of time). One could argue that the wreck is also not in peril as well though. There is no clean and simple answer that will make everyone happy about this issue. I don't think that anything should be changed because the issue is one of little importance. I have never had this done to me and never even seen it happen. Fix the desyncs then worry about the small stuff.
Taelech - Professor emeritus - Caldari Business Tribunal School of Law
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.10.05 22:29:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Guillame Herschel Pretty simple idea, really, even a chlid can understand it. Finders keepers - losers weepers.
Remember?
See? Griefing.
Then you are less than a child. Little children understand finders-keepers, why can't you?
Go cry to your mommy (if you have one).
-- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
|
Lavinrac Krad
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.05 23:05:00 -
[181]
Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 05/10/2007 23:08:21 My solution, get rid of can flagging, meaning anyone can loot/salvage any wreck/can without consequence.
So looting and salvaging becomes "first come, first served."
-Sig Starts- Why donÆt you show us on the dolly where the bad miner touched you. -Thesas THE NERF BAT COMETH! REPENT SINNER! --If I were god, then I'd nerf mice and men, like in that sayin |
Dark Divinities
|
Posted - 2007.10.05 23:22:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 05/10/2007 23:08:21 My solution, get rid of can flagging, meaning anyone can loot/salvage any wreck/can without consequence.
So looting and salvaging becomes "first come, first served."
... and thankfully, CCP has created a game which supports multiple rule sets based on the needs and desires of multiple communities of players. I would have NO PROBLEM with your suggestion in 0.0 space where everything is basically "free for all"... but in low sec there are more limits on griefing behavior and high sec where there are even stricter limits, this suggestion makes no sense.
If you really want to suggest this, why don't you create a new thread called "Ditch Empire and make EvE 100% 0.0"
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Dr Grot
Gallente Warrior Eclipse
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Posted - 2007.10.05 23:34:00 -
[183]
My 2 pence worth,
Leave the wreck system alone. I don't probe out mission runners and steal wrecks coz I don't have the probing skills but if I did then I might.
If your falling victim of "wreck thieves" as you call them then tough luck. There's nothing stopping you doing the same to others.
There's no problem here as far as I'm concerned
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Lavinrac Krad
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.06 05:01:00 -
[184]
Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 06/10/2007 05:00:57
Originally by: Dark Divinities
Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 05/10/2007 23:08:21 My solution, get rid of can flagging, meaning anyone can loot/salvage any wreck/can without consequence.
So looting and salvaging becomes "first come, first served."
... and thankfully, CCP has created a game which supports multiple rule sets based on the needs and desires of multiple communities of players. I would have NO PROBLEM with your suggestion in 0.0 space where everything is basically "free for all"... but in low sec there are more limits on griefing behavior and high sec where there are even stricter limits, this suggestion makes no sense.
If you really want to suggest this, why don't you create a new thread called "Ditch Empire and make EvE 100% 0.0"
Actually, 0.0 is the place where you can ATTACK people without retribution. In high sec you get people flagged and then can ATTACK them without retribution, so really people who want flagging are more interested in 0.0 type PvP.
Some guy with a bunch of savagers and cargo expanders is not attacking you and is not interested in PvP.
-Sig Starts- Why donÆt you show us on the dolly where the bad miner touched you. -Thesas THE NERF BAT COMETH! REPENT SINNER! --If I were god, then I'd nerf mice and men, like in that sayin |
Capista Alisplin
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Posted - 2007.10.07 03:40:00 -
[185]
I've read through the topic.... I confess i'm a garbage collector... I float around and pick up abandoned wrecks.. If the wrecker is still in the system I ask them if I can have the wrecks and even throw them some cash if I actually do salvage something from them.. What it all really comes down to is respect... Disrespect is following a guy doing missions and stealing his wrecks... Garbage floating around is just as it is..someones elses garbage.. If the owner came back and was ****ed about the salvaging then I return what I took... Be honest that is the biggest part of respect..
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Lugburz
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Posted - 2007.10.07 11:48:00 -
[186]
Typically salvage is first come first serve thats normal in real life right? maybe put a timer on it, say 15 minutes, if u dont move it you lose it and it becomes fair game for anyone.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Psychedelic Party Stellar Economy Experts
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Posted - 2007.10.08 15:18:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Lugburz Typically salvage is first come first serve thats normal in real life right? maybe put a timer on it, say 15 minutes, if u dont move it you lose it and it becomes fair game for anyone.
The cargo of a downed ship is considered salvage in real life as well, so if you're going to base things on real life, you should probably do it for everything. ------------------- 4 8 15 16 23 42 108 |
Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.10.08 20:21:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Dark Divinities Salvaging other people's mission WHILE they are doing it (the wrecks weren't abandoned) should be a criminal act.
Salvaging wrecks left to rot by someone with no interest or skills in salvaging should be fair game.
Why is this so difficult for people to comprehend?
CCP?
They're more interested in griefing than risk free ISK, though rat battleship salvage where you only had to risk a t1 frig is moderately attractive. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires
|
Posted - 2007.10.08 22:54:00 -
[189]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 08/10/2007 22:55:19
Originally by: Xaen Besides, I think this and this is pretty obvious evidence of malicious intent.
Malicious intent is perfectly legal and even encouraged in this game, or didn't you know that? Surely you do know that. This game does not give you the option to excuse yourself from PvP.
-- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
syphurous
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.10.08 23:38:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Xaen They're more interested in griefing than risk free ISK, though rat battleship salvage where you only had to risk a t1 frig is moderately attractive.
Still bumping and moaning ? 1 out of 10000 people care, 9999, dont have an issue. Its working as intended, deal with it.
___
Too Many Anchored Cans |
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Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.10.09 03:20:00 -
[191]
Originally by: syphurous
Originally by: Xaen They're more interested in griefing than risk free ISK, though rat battleship salvage where you only had to risk a t1 frig is moderately attractive.
Still bumping and moaning ? 1 out of 10000 people care, 9999, dont have an issue. Its working as intended, deal with it.
EAD & DIAF. Sequence negotiable. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
ollobrains
White Wolf Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.10.09 05:33:00 -
[192]
yawn land
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SEN TAKOO
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Posted - 2007.10.14 22:11:00 -
[193]
Its hard enough trying to get the salvage you need to build rigs and then have some jerk-off come to your mission and take only the large wrecks, people in this post have given good arguments on both sides, but to be honest ccp wants people to get the wrecks out of the systems for lag reasons. CCP wants people to go into the profession of salvaging and thats how they got them to do it, if I didnt belong to a corp that thought it wrong I would be scanning out people running missions and salvaging off them as well. yes it is a respect thing to ask before you salvage other peoples missions, but how much respect do you get in this game anyways?
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pandymen
Caldari Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2007.10.15 16:54:00 -
[194]
Honestly, engaging people stealing from your wrecks is never really in your best interest anyway. As I said earlier and I will repeat again, your mission fitted raven won't do much to a pvp fitted char. You attack them, they warp away, they come back with a pvp battleship and pwn your face.
It's that simple. You honestly don't want ppl gettin flagged in general because you won't be able to do anything about it anyway.
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Dors Venabily
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:44:00 -
[195]
In my very humble opinion
Salvaging wrecks should not be a flag after 30 minutes. That should give you enough time even if the guy is waiting there like vulture. If he does it within that time he should be toast.
I do not mind ppl salvaging in general i am not really interested in that but there should be a sort of time period when you have exclusive rights on it. some kind of override to this would be good as well. You could override if you don't salvage so the folks that do don't have to wait all the time if you fine with them salvaging your wrecks.
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Don West
Caldari Eternal Pheonix Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2007.12.12 19:12:00 -
[196]
I don't like the idea of anyone coming to salvage a wreck after I've cleared the space for them. I did risk my ship, it did take me time to clear the pocket of space and I should have first rights at it.
When I see someone come in to salvage my wrecks (sometimes when I'm still fighting) I lock the wrecks and destroy them. It cost the vultures in probes, and although I didn't get it, I know someone else didn't steal it from me.
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Ein Spiegel
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Posted - 2008.01.06 05:39:00 -
[197]
I skipped about 8 pages of replies, so I'll apologize if someone already mentioned this. CCP is actually, with the salvaging system, continuing in tradition the current status quo in regards to the salvage industry as enshrined in a few treaties and commonly understood sense of maritime salvage.
If someone's ship sinks, is destroyed, runs aground, pirates destroy you, whatever... the wreck of the ship does not belong to whomever destroyed it. It belongs to whomever can first arrive and claim salvage. Vagaries of international law and tradition, however, make removal of the freight (ie, loot) and various fittings of a ship a criminal act. (The shipper still owns freight, certain fittings are not part of the wreck and are still owned by the owner or perhaps the person who destroyed the ship. Law governing piracy and military fleet engagements may mean that the victor gains the spoils in this case.) But the actual floating or sunk hulk does not remain the property of the owner, or of the person who destroyed it. That twisted mass of recyclable material becomes the property of whomever can first arrive and begin salvaging operations.
Of course, it varies from country to country, sovereign territorial waters, and general governmental climate, but CCP's non-stance (or rather, stance as stated in the "wrecks" information page on this site) about this speaks volumes. If a pirate comes along and I fight back, destroying their ship, the Coast Guard/Navy will still take a VERY dim view of me turning around and sinking the salvage ship that arrives just behind them.
Of course, if you happen to be a lawyer specializing in salvage in international waters, please let me know if the system is much different from what I've said here.
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Manipulator
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.01.06 19:31:00 -
[198]
No one owns wrecks. See my sig.
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Vaell'or Kurtanz
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Posted - 2008.01.07 14:44:00 -
[199]
As alot have already said, check your international salvaging laws..
And as for myself and the rest of our Salvage corp. See you in space soon.
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G Viking
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Posted - 2008.01.07 14:49:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Oh dear,, break out the old kleenex. Wrecks are wrecks are wrecks, and can and should be salvaged by anybody. Why should joe bloggs be criminally flagged for salvaging something which jane doe *can't* salvage....
You hit the point directly. Why should I be flagged for salvaging a wreck after the player who won the combat has either looted it or was nor interested in looting it because the cargo was not worth it for him. Especially after group minings you can seee dozends of ratships floating in space without beeing looted. But the most important point is that you have to learn salvaging and you ship has to be equipped for this job or the wreck (after looting) is worthless for you. If something should be changed in the game then I would apply for a deadline of 15 minutes or so, after this time all wrecks you be open for everyone for looting and slavaging without beeing flagged. I think all parties could live with such a rule
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Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.01.07 16:25:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Ein Spiegel I skipped about 8 pages of replies
And that led you to necro an old thread.
My sig taken from this site, so thoroughly explains the people I speak with on the forums |
Gerry TheViking
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.01.07 20:36:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Dors Venabily In my very humble opinion Salvaging wrecks should not be a flag after 30 minutes. That should give you enough time even if the guy is waiting there like vulture. If he does it within that time he should be toast.
I 100% agree with this opinion.
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Blue Wraith
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Posted - 2008.01.07 22:40:00 -
[203]
Salvage thieves should, at the least, be flagged. That way I at least have the option of retaliation.
Personally, I probably wouldn't attack them unless I had corp mates nearby.
But one thing I will do from now on is destroy my own wrecks if a thief enters my mission, starting with the ones they are salvaging. I credit that idea to someone else in this thread.
Talk it up as nice as you want, but salvaging a yellow wreck is still thievery.
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Darth Matt
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
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Posted - 2008.01.08 02:57:00 -
[204]
wow- this thread is long- and as typical not one dev response on their reasons or thoughts on the matter- maybe when it gets to be 50 pages of people explaining their displeasure of the ignorant system they have right now- they may chime in on why they chose to handle the current system so poorly-
I run missions to pad up the wallet for pvp ships. I clear a level, then come back and salvage- if i hear or see a jerk uncloak whos setting a bookmark to the location to go grab his salvaging ship - i blow up all the wrecks and move on to the next mission-no free ride here- f that
I need an acceleration gate to get to a deadspace (whatever the F that is) and these jerkwads scan for a few minutes and can warp right into this mystical "deadspace" that according to the fancy crap ass flavor text- cant be accessed except by acceleration gates. some hidden pocket of space- that has wierd phoenomenae that keeps micro warp drives from working - but keeps scumbag griefers quite happy, cause they can at will enter these ****** zones and STEAL from whomever they want with ample protection from the fantasy cops-
and the bozo that claims these thieves keep rigs prices low should self destruct- the comment shows little or not thought. and Im going to be forced to punch myself in the face until the pain blurs some of the ******** comments above.
this thread is like each one i read when their is a 2 sided dispute- the exploiters (wreck THIEVES) say its a fair mechanic - deal with it, those who are being cheated- try and give a logical argument to the 12 year old whos stealing the wrecks and giggling.
so, i close with the thought of a rabbit with a pancake on its head- because these arguments have taken a portion of my sanity away.
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Xauxau
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.08 06:46:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Darth Matt {Snipped much "Waaa! Salvagers steal da loots" ranting}
Im going to be forced to punch myself in the face until the pain blurs some of the ******** comments above.
Please just keep it up until you fall unconscious.
Some of us remember when there was no salvage. Its a nice bonus. Its obviously not a mission runners entitlement program.
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Vaell'or Kurtanz
Sick Cruel and Unusual Methods
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Posted - 2008.01.08 11:12:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Darth Matt
this thread is like each one i read when their is a 2 sided dispute- the exploiters (wreck THIEVES) say its a fair mechanic - deal with it, those who are being cheated- try and give a logical argument to the 12 year old whos stealing the wrecks and giggling.
1.Check international salvaging law's mate, you'll see exactley why CCP have it set as they do..
2.In actuallity the "Salvage" corp i'm a part of is entirely made up of real life mates, all of which are in the late twenties/early thirties bracket..
3.And yes we're doing this to make more isk for our pvp ships too.
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realbadman
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Posted - 2008.01.08 11:55:00 -
[207]
necro bad
yes, lets flag salvager's. even though, imo, common sense says otherwise.
then i'll be doing everything i can to 'suicide salvage' missions while mining faction fittings from cnr wrecks.
can you imagine the screams if it was standard for high sec uber-miners to fit faction fittings?
remember, ganking is good but ganking with a bit of griefing is pure bliss
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.01.08 12:44:00 -
[208]
Originally by: realbadman necro bad
yes, lets flag salvager's. even though, imo, common sense says otherwise.
then i'll be doing everything i can to 'suicide salvage' missions while mining faction fittings from cnr wrecks.
can you imagine the screams if it was standard for high sec uber-miners to fit faction fittings?
remember, ganking is good but ganking with a bit of griefing is pure bliss
If you really want to be flagged, there's nothing stopping you from just taking some loot out of the wrecks while you're stealing salvage right now.
If not... well, then I guess you* won't be stealing salvage.
*whoever
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Little Fistter
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Posted - 2008.02.01 17:25:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 13/09/2007 23:53:28
Originally by: Yoinx Edited by: Yoinx on 13/09/2007 15:24:54
Originally by: Guillame Herschel No, the contents of the can within the wreck belong to the guy who shot it down. The wreck itself belongs to no one.
Maybe you should try clicking on someone else's wreck, and checking to see if your name shows up on it. Then you can say nobody owns it.
OK, fine. The SALVAGE in the wreck is owned by no one until a salvage module claims it. That the wreck is flagged with an owner is a side-effect of the fact that salvage was added after can looting, so the wrecks stands in for the can, until the wreck is gone.
Happy now? Didn't think so.
Hmmm. Let's go back to the concept of "deadspace" mission. I am thinking that while the mission is active the mission area is invisible to all probes. When the mission ends, wrecks should have a radioactive glow that makes them easy to probe using the free scanner.
Further, while the mission is active, the precks and loot are exclusive to the pilot or gang or corp of the original killer. Touching the wreck in any way makes you a thief for thrity minutes.
However, when mission ends, all wreck and salvage and loot is public and will persis an extra hour from the mission end.
Lastly, a PLAYER wreck is the property of that player, and may only be touched by the player, his gangmates or corpmates.
Thank you for a lively discussion!
Suggestion: Please color jump gates the same color as the system security rating of the destination system in the overview.
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Righteous Deeds
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Posted - 2008.02.02 01:51:00 -
[210]
The bottom line is this rule protects those who will not take risks and allows them to profit from those who do, and who have spent their time creating the wrecks in the first place. The rules with loot and salvage should be the same...you can take it, but only if you buy your fair share of risk.
Arguing that you should be able keep the fruits of other peoples labor for minimal effort on your own part is weak and gutless.
The game doesn't need a class of coward highsec salvagers, but it can still reward salvagers with guts. The brave ones are making a good living in lowsec already.
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RangerXT
Caldari Ota Corps Akihabara Denki Gai
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Posted - 2008.02.02 02:52:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Vaell'or Kurtanz
Originally by: Darth Matt
this thread is like each one i read when their is a 2 sided dispute- the exploiters (wreck THIEVES) say its a fair mechanic - deal with it, those who are being cheated- try and give a logical argument to the 12 year old whos stealing the wrecks and giggling.
1.Check international salvaging law's mate, you'll see exactley why CCP have it set as they do..
2.In actuallity the "Salvage" corp i'm a part of is entirely made up of real life mates, all of which are in the late twenties/early thirties bracket..
3.And yes we're doing this to make more isk for our pvp ships too.
Sorry, but the system is broken. If it's the way you state because of 'international salvaging law' then why will concord show up and kill me if I kill someone elses wreck/ I can salvage it fine but fire on it and instant death? The system is flawed. The wreck either needs to belong to you or it has to be a free for all. It can't be yours if fired on and then someone elses if salvaged. That is just plain ********. It needs an adjustment.
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Jack Freely
Caldari Trading Corp
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Posted - 2008.02.02 02:57:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Humwawa If someone scans me in highsec during a mission and then salvages my wrecks - so be it. BUT If I cant attack him without getting concorded this is plain stupid and has NOTHING to do with pvp-orientated. In my eyes this is only exploiting. CCP PLEASE fix ASAP
This is fair, then I will start flying BC in to salvage and have an alt at the sun ready to shield rep and use drones on you.
You really want to see if your noob npc setup can tank two pvp set ups?
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Jack Freely
Caldari Trading Corp
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Posted - 2008.02.02 03:07:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Vampie
2. Carebears say, let me shoot at pirates that salvage my wrecks
So, exactly where is the PVP part of EVE and where is the risk vs reward that pirates so much like to talk about?
Vampie
The last thing you want is to shoot a pirate, most pirates do whats called TEAM WORK, so it would really just end up watching care-bears get ransomed in empire space 9 out of 10 times.
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Oldin Kinrod
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Posted - 2008.02.02 03:48:00 -
[214]
The same old tired argument...
*gets papers ready for rebuttle* People stealing your wrecks? Players intruding your missions? |
RangerXT
Caldari Ota Corps Akihabara Denki Gai
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Posted - 2008.02.02 07:37:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Jack Freely
Originally by: Vampie
2. Carebears say, let me shoot at pirates that salvage my wrecks
So, exactly where is the PVP part of EVE and where is the risk vs reward that pirates so much like to talk about?
Vampie
The last thing you want is to shoot a pirate, most pirates do whats called TEAM WORK, so it would really just end up watching care-bears get ransomed in empire space 9 out of 10 times.
I forget. Do gang mates get to attack the guy who gets kill rights if he decides to use them? If so CCP is even more ******** than I thought. "Oh you guys finally get to defend your stuff in highsec......oh btw, if the guy has a gang they all get to kill you if you are actually stupid enough to try to defend your stuff. LULZ CAUSE THAT IS BALANCE RISK/REWARD LULZ LULZ"
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Keraa
Minmatar Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.02.02 11:48:00 -
[216]
I personally ask if I may salvage wrecks that I see, if the person is around. ie: the miner that is using drones. I leave the cargo of course. I do agree that if you killed something, that it is yours to do with as you please.
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Commander OTG
Caldari Logistic Exposium Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.02 19:40:00 -
[217]
Edited by: Commander OTG on 02/02/2008 19:43:05 I welcomed CCPs decision to introduce salvaging as a profession. I jumped the gun when the first announcement came out and started the skills I thought would be optimal. I am completely maxed on all skills pertaining to salvaging and exploring. I fly ships that are fitted for thier specific tasks, such as hacking and so forth and have created a network of bokmarks to facilitate proper placement of probes to get the job done as effeciently as possible.
If you are a smashkey named player...obvious macro...person that doesnt respond to my requests to salvage...then I consider the wrecks open game.
I can tell you this. I have been offered much isk to assist pirates in locating faction fitted battleships in hopes of gaining the mods for themselves. If CCP were to decide that wrecks will criminally flag a person then they will certainly be gaining more mods.
I respect my fellow players and have befriended many of the mission runners in outlying areas which lessens my competition..lol
EXECUTIVE OFFICER
"Finder of SafeSpots-Killer of Pods" |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.02.02 21:09:00 -
[218]
Originally by: RangerXT
Originally by: Jack Freely
Originally by: Vampie
2. Carebears say, let me shoot at pirates that salvage my wrecks
So, exactly where is the PVP part of EVE and where is the risk vs reward that pirates so much like to talk about?
Vampie
The last thing you want is to shoot a pirate, most pirates do whats called TEAM WORK, so it would really just end up watching care-bears get ransomed in empire space 9 out of 10 times.
I forget. Do gang mates get to attack the guy who gets kill rights if he decides to use them? If so CCP is even more ******** than I thought. "Oh you guys finally get to defend your stuff in highsec......oh btw, if the guy has a gang they all get to kill you if you are actually stupid enough to try to defend your stuff. LULZ CAUSE THAT IS BALANCE RISK/REWARD LULZ LULZ"
You're wrong. If someone steals from your wreck, he goes blinky red: you can shoot him if you choose, giving him the right to shoot back. His friends do NOT get kill rights on you unless you fire on them as well (but they can remote rep him for instance).
So why don't you calm down and stop crying, and learn to actually play the game?
If you draw the attentions of a salvager, there are several countermeasures open to you, the simplest and safest being to simply destroy any wreck he gets close to until he realises you're serious and goes to a more profitable venue.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Jack Freely
Caldari Trading Corp
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Posted - 2008.02.02 22:56:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Malcanis If you draw the attentions of a salvager, there are several countermeasures open to you, the simplest and safest being to simply destroy any wreck he gets close to until he realises you're serious and goes to a more profitable venue.
I like to jet my own can to see if they shoot it, its only a 20% of the time, but still is fun to watch Concord pop them.
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Righteous Deeds
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Posted - 2008.02.02 22:59:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Jack Freely
This is fair, then I will start flying BC in to salvage and have an alt at the sun ready to shield rep and use drones on you.
You really want to see if your noob npc setup can tank two pvp set ups?
If you were so tough, you wouldn't have the slightest issue about no longer being able to steal for free, right? Support changing the rule, then let the wreck owners decide what they want to risk with a salvager, and let the salvagers decide how much effort they want to go to to swipe salvage. How could this be anything less than perfectly fair?
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Joe Free
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Posted - 2008.02.03 07:02:00 -
[221]
"Stealing is Stealing" no matter what the game calls it - all of you know this!! The game says the "wreck is yours" by protecting it in some ways, therefore it should enforce it's own rules in whatever way it does all other stealing. And as far as keeping the space clear by allowing noobs to steal salvage from other peoples wrecks they earned by risk and effort,it has a timer on the wrecks and cans created all ready - "correct" ? And if they want to bring down rigs costs, "improve the amount and quality of salvage" that can be obtained from the wrecks. Also from whoever said mission runners made most of their income from the mission pay and bounties, it shows that they have never run any missions theirself. And for those who said salvage as you go, yes I do that a fair amount, but if you do any missions yourself you should know that is some missions you need time to clear the wrecks so you can go get a dedicated salvager to do it in..(Corp mates are not always on you know you know, and besides they want to join in the fighting also) Myself while mining, "if asked" I have np allowing a salvager to clear the space around me mostly. Hell a lot of the times he can have the loot to. But on missions wrecks,salvage items is where a lot of my isk income comes from, those that think different, again must not have run many missions. (And yes I enjoy bldg my own rigs) 'Agree or not,your choice' but please don't say that when a player is to lazy or scared to do their own missions that is the way should be.
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Charlie Chambers
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Posted - 2008.02.03 20:09:00 -
[222]
signed
Think about game balance for a second.
1. You can't kill BS mission rats with a frigate.
2. You can't salvage mission wrecks with a BS.
3. Any frigate that jumps into an area (even a deadspace area) is going to *by default* get to the wrecks before the BS ever could.
You end up with absolute newb players salvaging BS wrecks that they could never have killed themselves. They make dozens of millions of ISK from a simple hour of salvaging someone elses wrecks with less than a million skill points in their character; I dare you to say that this is a balanced situation.
To the salvage thieves that say they ask before they salvage: most salvage thieves don't.
To people saying that wrecks should be free for everyone: I killed that BS - you didn't. Why don't you build up your own sp to kill your own mission BS and come join the conversation in 5 or 6 months.
The end result: Missions are nerfed.
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syphurous
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.02.03 21:03:00 -
[223]
You know why I dont ask before I take ? Because I'm not stealing.
I LOL at the people here posting mulitple times with their alts.
I've seen a frigate kill a BS, so you all need to go and learn how to actually fit ships, because you obviously have no clue.
I like how you think its "n00bs" salvaging your wrecks too, because even if the character is young, n00bs dont tend to even try probing because the skill chain is slow and boring and the results not immediate. If you have never probed down a ship, knowing what ship you are exactly after, you cant talk about how easy it is. ___
All Ur Salvage R Belong 2 Me ! |
Charlie Chambers
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Posted - 2008.02.03 21:14:00 -
[224]
Originally by: syphurous You know why I dont ask before I take ? Because I'm not stealing.
I LOL at the people here posting mulitple times with their alts.
I've seen a frigate kill a BS, so you all need to go and learn how to actually fit ships, because you obviously have no clue.
I like how you think its "n00bs" salvaging your wrecks too, because even if the character is young, n00bs dont tend to even try probing because the skill chain is slow and boring and the results not immediate. If you have never probed down a ship, knowing what ship you are exactly after, you cant talk about how easy it is.
kk, r*tard. Thanks for coming out. I'd like to see you do serpentis extravaganza in a frigate, solo.
Nice rhetoric to come from you, considering you're from an NPC corp. I have scanned ships down, and it's not nearly as hard as you want to make it out to be.
It's not stealing because you don't blink red. One line of code and your w*nkfest would be all over.
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Aidonis Heideran
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Posted - 2008.02.03 21:58:00 -
[225]
/signed.
1v1 an AF or inty MAY (I've never tried, but I'm gonna guess) take out a mission BS rat. You're not gonna clear a room with it though.
Noobz have got to stop being allowed to steal our high level sh*t without suffering consequences.
Please just alter that 1 line of code (probably a boolean too. just set it to 1) and let me after them. Then lets see the noobz in salvaging frigates take my BS. ;P
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Donna Maria
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.02.03 22:45:00 -
[226]
So funny.. U guys come cry about people 'stealing' your wreck. Well, the poor rat you killed actually owns that wreck, so looting it you are stealing from him.. But besides the obvious flame, why dont you tough guys go to 0.0 and rat. 2 triple spawns will pay you more than that stupid mission .. And if some comes to salvage your wreck you can pew pew ... Oh even in Lowsec u can pew pew.. Dont worry, concord wont show. But I bet your too 'afraid' to go to Low/no sec space.. but you want to shoot some guy that salvages one of your wrecks.. Get a team mate or ally to salvage for u .. Im the girl momma warned you about..
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Oldin Kinrod
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Posted - 2008.02.03 23:14:00 -
[227]
Edited by: Oldin Kinrod on 03/02/2008 23:15:49
Originally by: Charlie Chambers
kk, r*tard. Thanks for coming out. I'd like to see you do serpentis extravaganza in a frigate, solo.
Nice rhetoric to come from you, considering you're from an NPC corp. I have scanned ships down, and it's not nearly as hard as you want to make it out to be.
It's not stealing because you don't blink red. One line of code and your w*nkfest would be all over.
And let me guess, you are missioning in a hub with 100s of others - and probably using drones too right?
Also if you had done some reading on this issue you would know that you USED to be flagged for salvaging if the wreck had loot in it -and CCP removed this. Doesn't that give you some indication that CCP want salvaging to work this way, not to mention the entry in the knowledgebase about wrecks - but I guess you're more worried about your ISK/hr than actual game balance and design.
There are 100s of ways to combat this, written in 100s of threads across the board, but you missioners that whine about this don't want to adapt. I run mission myself and have not had a single person warp into my missions, mainly because I stay out of the hubs. It's not easy scanning down ships while they are in a mission, but the mission hubs make it like shooting fish in a barrel.
Originally by: Aidonis Heideran Then lets see the noobz in salvaging frigates take my BS. ;P
And then see that noob come back in his PvP BS and blow you up, then you go to the forums and whine about it like the miners after can flagging was introduced? People stealing your wrecks? Players intruding your missions? |
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.04 00:01:00 -
[228]
Edited by: Sendraks on 04/02/2008 00:05:28 I've yet to see a compelling argument as to why the wreck system should be changed and none have been put forward in this thread.
I could see a basis for making a change if it wasn't so easy to avoid getting salvagers in your mission DS. As it stands, avoiding salvagers just requires a modicum of effort and common sense. I've yet to find anyone in my mission DS who shouldn't be there.
From this it is easy to deduce that the people who are asking for this change are a) lazy and b) bereft of common sense.*
Salvaging is fine. No changes are necessary. Use your brain and you'll find there is no reason to complain.
*Lack of common sense also evidenced by the people whining about salvagers having no understanding of "risk vs reward."
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Summersnow
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Posted - 2008.02.04 07:20:00 -
[229]
Just seems odd for CCP to actually do something to protect players instead of using this as another way to promote PVP.
That alone makes me doubt this is working as intended.
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Roche Pso
Gallente Deltole Research Labs
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Posted - 2008.02.04 08:17:00 -
[230]
I do missions sometimes and salvage other people's missions other times. I get 2000+ Isk/LP, so it isnt worth taking the time to salvage my own missions as it slows me down too much. If someone wants to come salvage my missions they are welcome to, but no one ever has as I am not such a numpty as to mission in a hub! If I am only online for a short time I take my salvage ship to the Dodixie area and have fun trading insults with the cry baby missioners there
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Sigul Siento
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Posted - 2008.02.04 11:27:00 -
[231]
Edited by: Sigul Siento on 04/02/2008 11:31:21 I am a new player who have taken to salvaging as a way of playing. Mainly becuase it is fun, a treasurehunt. Maybe I'll find some abandoned drones, an empty ship (found a shuttle with 26m3 of cargo onboard the other day, that was weird), or a field of abandoned wrecks.
But the main problem here is I can't search for the wrecks themselves, I have to search for ships or drones and hope to find some wrecks around. I'd much prefer to find abandoned wrecks, from those who don't care about salvaging their missions. Less competition means more profit. Might even risk taking some leftover loot in those cases, if it seemed safe. I have, however, no misgivings about salvaging wrecks others planned to salvage. That wrecks aren't owned by those who shot them but are marked simply as a container for the loot and that this division isn't arbitrary is supported by the fact that anyone can pick up loot whilst salvaging requires specific skills (that said skills are so fast to train that most anyone have them is another matter). But the deciding factor for me is that when I start salvaging wrecks, those wrecks are in fact abandoned. That missioners are to lazy to salvage as they go along as it would nerf their DPS somewhat is their decision. Risk vs reward and all that. You risk someone else salvaging the wrecks you leave if you want the reward of convinient salvage after the killing.
That you get a flag for taking loot from ships killed by others isn't IMO an argument for getting flagged for salvaging. If anything, you shouldn't get flagged for taking loot either, outside perhaps a 1-2 minute timer, which would give anyone ample time to pick up any loot they wanted. This would make you able to deal with anyone outright following you, which would be quite annoying, but also encourage a proactive view to what you consider your property. IE, if you deliberately leave something floating in space, you relinquish any claim to it.
What I think could be a good idea is a mechanism where wrecks are scannable, but with 0 in sensor strenght (or whatever it is called, lets call it "scannability" for sake of easy understanding) at the moment it is created, that is when the ship itself goes boom. From that moment till the wreck despawns the scannability goes up, possibly nonlinearly, until it reaches maximum strenght right before the despawn. This way, masses of clearly abandoned wrecks will be easy to find, whilst mission runners in low sec will still be able to run missions without being instantly scanned out and killed (from what I have seen on the subject this is the reason for why you can't currently scan wrecks), but there will of course be a further incentive to hurry.
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Righteous Deeds
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Posted - 2008.02.04 14:31:00 -
[232]
Too funny. Even most miners are dealing with belt rats, but here we have a bunch of folks that insist it's whining to want to prevent salvagers from getting something for nothing.
Do the right thing, ask for the salvage or make your own wrecks. Either that or support a rule change that makes you have to risk fighting for what you take from someone else's time and effort. Freebees are weak, and mission-runners shouldn't have to "adapt" to stupid rules. How about salvagers "adapt" to a new system since they're the ones putting the least effort into the existing process?
I'm adding "whining" and "adapt" to the list of overused forum words preferred by those without a logical argument.
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Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.04 14:51:00 -
[233]
Edited by: Sendraks on 04/02/2008 14:51:25
Originally by: Righteous Deeds Too funny. Even most miners are dealing with belt rats, but here we have a bunch of folks that insist it's whining to want to prevent salvagers from getting something for nothing.
Hmm, lets see. Time spent probing people down. Cost of probes. Probability of getting anything decent from wrecks.
Doesn't sound like something for nothing to me. Of course, idiots who run missions in certain systems make it a lot easier for people to find their mission DS's. If people weren't so lazy and stupid, there wouldn't be these whines in the first place.
Reality is that mission runners get something for nothing. It takes far less effort to run a mission (no effort at all to get a mission in the first place) than it does to probe someone down.
Originally by: Righteous Deeds Do the right thing, ask for the salvage or make your own wrecks.
This certainly would be the "right" or at least the "polite" thing to do. But that doesn't mean it should be the only option.
Originally by: Righteous Deeds Either that or support a rule change that makes you have to risk fighting for what you take from someone else's time and effort. Freebees are weak, and mission-runners shouldn't have to "adapt" to stupid rules. How about salvagers "adapt" to a new system since they're the ones putting the least effort into the existing process?
Why should salvagers have to adapt and not mission runners? Mission runners arguably get more freebies than salvagers (free rats, free wrecks). You don't have to spend time getting a mission to do, you just ask and off you go. Missions are an easy, nigh on risk free enterprise in hi-sec. Why should mission runners get everything for free and the salvager, who spends time and money finding a mission DS, get nothing at all.
I am a regular mission runner. I have my faction BS with various trimmings. I know how "hard" missions are. I am well aware that I am getting a lot of ISK for very little effort and risk on my part. However, I don't make it easy for people to come "visit" my mission DS's by running missions in a system where salvagers operate. It simply isn't worth the time or the effort for a salvager to operate in the systems where I am.
I adapted. I win.
I do not see why those lazy mission runners who can't be bothered to think and adapt, should continue to get something for nothing. My effort (small) has been rewarded. Why should their zero effort yield the same results?
Originally by: Righteous Deeds I'm adding "whining" and "adapt" to the list of overused forum words preferred by those without a logical argument.
Which helps you blend in with all the other non-sensical, illogical arguments here. You're another example of this sad part of the community that doesn't understand risk vs reward.
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Sigul Siento
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Posted - 2008.02.04 16:51:00 -
[234]
Edited by: Sigul Siento on 04/02/2008 16:53:34
Originally by: Righteous Deeds Too funny. Even most miners are dealing with belt rats, but here we have a bunch of folks that insist it's whining to want to prevent salvagers from getting something for nothing.
What Sendraks said, in addition to warping in on a bunch of mission rats which my ship, as opposed to the missioners, isn't equipped to handle at all.
Originally by: Righteous Deeds
Do the right thing, ask for the salvage or make your own wrecks.
You left it floating in space (if I enter fighting areas to salvage the risk goes up tenfold). Why should I ask to take what you weren't interested enough to take yourself?
Originally by: Righteous Deeds
Either that or support a rule change that makes you have to risk fighting for what you take from someone else's time and effort.
I'll support a 1-2 minute timer of ownership on wrecks AND loot. Then you would gain immedeate ownership of all the spoils of your victims, and it would be up to you if you want to take advantage of it. If you don't WANT to pick up stuff as you go along yourself or have a friend/alt tag along to do it, that would be your choice.
And I would support making wrecks scannable, with some sort of limitation like a timer or only once the missioner has left the area. This would be beneficial for everyone as the salvagers could focus on the abandoned wrecks and get more loot, and less risk for the missioneers to be visited "in action".
Originally by: Righteous Deeds Freebees are weak, and mission-runners shouldn't have to "adapt" to stupid rules. How about salvagers "adapt" to a new system since they're the ones putting the least effort into the existing process?
As Sendraks pointed out, this is a fallacious statement and as such irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Originally by: Righteous Deeds I'm adding "whining" and "adapt" to the list of overused forum words preferred by those without a logical argument.
And in that capacity you used them well.
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Sslinger
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:26:00 -
[235]
Thought I would ask a question since this thread goes along the same lines as my own concern....
As a Privateer, if I kill a war target using a powerful, but very slow battleship, I rarely get the loot. It seems that the powers that be have decided that the loot contained in the wreck that I worked so hard in getting (at much greater risk then any mission runner has) does not belong to me. It in fact belongs to the pilot that was killed.
Worse of all, any Tom, **** and Harry can fly right over and relieve me of the goods without fear of consequence because he is flagged to a pilot that is waking up in a clone vat somewhere across the universe.
Now for all the mission runners in this channel, that are so upset about wrecks that were not gathered at the time of the kill, why would you think you should have timers of ownership....restricted dead space areas...or criminally flag a looter?
You have the benefit of setting up your ship with resist hardeners...load the most damaging type of armor..and generally know the exact configuration of your opponent and yet you feel slighted because someone else has taken their time to train all the appropriate skills for probing and salvaging that come in and take wreck components with very little risk?? ItÆs all in perspective...they have little risk for what they gain....in comparison, you have little risk for what you gain when looking at how I earn a living.
The bottom line, people play this game differently. Salvaging has been introduced as profession and I appreciate the work those guys are investing in making rigs better priced for us all.
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Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:48:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Sigul Siento And I would support making wrecks scannable, with some sort of limitation like a timer or only once the missioner has left the area. This would be beneficial for everyone as the salvagers could focus on the abandoned wrecks and get more loot, and less risk for the missioneers to be visited "in action".
If what you're saying is, make wrecks scannable outside of a deadspace, then it might work. It shouldn't be something that is any easier to do than scanning out a mission DS though, so effectively it just gives a salvager more time/options. By maintaining the parity with scanning of mission DS, this means that it won't be any easier/harder to find wrecks in busy systems (indeed, it is more likely that the salvagers will be going after wrecks that the mission runner didn't care about) and will make no odds to those of us who made the effort to move into quieter space.
I don't see that there is any need for any sort of flagging system (for cans or wrecks). As a hi-sec mission runner, the trade off for being able to run missions in almost complete saftey is not being able to intervene when someone takes your wrecks/loot. Of course, if you teamed up with a salvager/corp mate/friend to handle the logistics of salvaging and acquiring loot (or used a 2nd account) this wouldn't be a problem.
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Sigul Siento
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Posted - 2008.02.04 18:12:00 -
[237]
Edited by: Sigul Siento on 04/02/2008 18:13:54
Originally by: Sendraks
If what you're saying is, make wrecks scannable outside of a deadspace, then it might work. It shouldn't be something that is any easier to do than scanning out a mission DS though, so effectively it just gives a salvager more time/options. By maintaining the parity with scanning of mission DS, this means that it won't be any easier/harder to find wrecks in busy systems (indeed, it is more likely that the salvagers will be going after wrecks that the mission runner didn't care about) and will make no odds to those of us who made the effort to move into quieter space.
As far as I understand it, once a mission is turned in, the deadspace and all trappings of the mission go away, leaving any remaining wrecks and cans to float the vastness of space till they go pop. Though not all missions take place in actual "can't warp to"-deadspace, do they? Bit iffy on this, but seems from my limited experience that not all do.
But regardless, once a (deadspace) mission is turned in by the missioner, the wrecks will be easy to scan down.
And yes, I did mean that scanning wrecks would make salvagers go after wrecks missioners don't care about. Far from all salvage wrecks from their kills, so the unscannable wrecks go to waste as they are impossible to find unless the missioner forgot a drone in the area. A salvager finding an abandoned mission site isn't going after a "still used" site for the time being, and knowing that you can find wreck fields to salvage undisturbed means many won't bother going after wrecks if we see that someone is already there.
Originally by: Sendraks
I don't see that there is any need for any sort of flagging system (for cans or wrecks). As a hi-sec mission runner, the trade off for being able to run missions in almost complete saftey is not being able to intervene when someone takes your wrecks/loot. Of course, if you teamed up with a salvager/corp mate/friend to handle the logistics of salvaging and acquiring loot (or used a 2nd account) this wouldn't be a problem.
I agree, but compromise solutions are often for the best.
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Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.04 18:30:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Sigul Siento As far as I understand it, once a mission is turned in, the deadspace and all trappings of the mission go away, leaving any remaining wrecks and cans to float the vastness of space till they go pop. Though not all missions take place in actual "can't warp to"-deadspace, do they? Bit iffy on this, but seems from my limited experience that not all do.
All missions take place in deadspace that prohibits the use of MWDs and function broadly in the same way for scanning. That is my understanding at least.
Originally by: Sigul Siento But regardless, once a (deadspace) mission is turned in by the missioner, the wrecks will be easy to scan down.
Define "easy." As easy as a ship? Easier than scanning a DS? Personally I can't think why a wreck should be easier to scan than a ship and as in most cases, there will be a large number of wrecks in a small area, the chance to scan an individual wreck should be lower than a ship, but this would balance with the large number of wrecks.
Originally by: Sigul Siento And yes, I did mean that scanning wrecks would make salvagers go after wrecks missioners don't care about. Far from all salvage wrecks from their kills, so the unscannable wrecks go to waste as they are impossible to find unless the missioner forgot a drone in the area. A salvager finding an abandoned mission site isn't going after a "still used" site for the time being, and knowing that you can find wreck fields to salvage undisturbed means many won't bother going after wrecks if we see that someone is already there.
I broadly agree. Though I think you've got a bit too much faith in people being good natured. I think you'll find plenty of players will salvage away at wrecks whether there is anyone present or not, partly because they're too lazy to look elsewhere and partly because some players do just like to annoy you.
Originally by: Sigul Siento I agree, but compromise solutions are often for the best.
The compromise is already in place in that hi-sec mission runners get to run missions in safety (war-decs and rare suicide attacks not withstanding). No further comprising is needed. The fact that cans are already flagged is bad enough as it should never have happened in the first place.
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Sigul Siento
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Posted - 2008.02.04 19:35:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Sendraks
I broadly agree. Though I think you've got a bit too much faith in people being good natured. I think you'll find plenty of players will salvage away at wrecks whether there is anyone present or not, partly because they're too lazy to look elsewhere and partly because some players do just like to annoy you.
Oh sure enough, I just meant that it would be *less* of a problem.
Seems we basically agree, now to get everyone else to
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Sslinger
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:11:00 -
[240]
Well you can believe that if CCP makes changes to flag wrecks...i will certainly start salvaging.
My bet is that I will certainly be able to defend myself...lol and maybe get me some faction loot out of the deal as well..Yarr
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syphurous
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:00:00 -
[241]
The moment CCP flags salvaging I'll be selling my services to pirates who want to find mission runners. Dodixie, have fun o/ ___
All Ur Salvage R Belong 2 Me ! |
katana78
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:06:00 -
[242]
hei we have a biggg problem, we do mission all the time in motsu and other systems, and now are somme people that scaning and comin in to the mision and salvage the werks, we can do any thing to defend our work.. 1 becouse salvagin others werks dont giv agression, 2 becouse we are not in ships that is fitted to pvp.
and wen this happen in low sec it is whorse, they kill you...
and there for agentes close to low level people dont wont to have .
the big problem is that they can commin in to a mision perimeter,,
are you willing to made somthing about it ?
tkx very much.
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katana78
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:07:00 -
[243]
i did a petiton about thata ant the answer is..
Hi,
You are welcome to discuss this on our forums at www.eve-online.com, the Developers will be able to read it there. The players and Developers can also post a comment if they would like to and discuss this with you. The best section to post it under would be Features and Ideas Discussion, you can also post if elsewhere if you would like.
Please only post it once though, multiple posts will result in them being removed.
Best Regards, GM Faolchu EVE Online Customer Support
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syphurous
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:09:00 -
[244]
Ok,.... This one will get modded too,... ___
All Ur Salvage R Belong 2 Me ! |
katana78
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:20:00 -
[245]
all werks and loot and bounty in MY MISSION belong to me....it is mi time mi agente mi mission mi skills that made thet werk in the space posible..
and you are a lazy tief , that cant made your own work..
and abuse of a bad rules on the system y realy look fordwar that CCP do somthing about ... at last give me thae chance to figth back those lazy tief...
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Sslinger
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:27:00 -
[246]
Leave some loot in the wrecks and I will give you a chance to defend it...free of charge
Motsu you said?
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syphurous
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:35:00 -
[247]
So lazy, I spent time and effort setting myself up, generating bookmarks, and using a tiny ship to race from wreck to wreck in mission dead spaces.
Your, right I dont need to even be at the keyboard to do that. Oh wait, yes I do. Its when I'm running missions in my BS that I can go AFK.
If I happen to find you in a mission, tell you what, I'll steal some loot so you can shoot at me. ___
All Ur Salvage R Belong 2 Me ! |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:58:00 -
[248]
The salvage doesn't belong to you, it belongs to whoever salvages the wreck. You haven't done anything to earn it, why should it be yours?
Your reward for blowing up the ship is the bounty and the loot inside. The wreck is a separate entity which, when salvaged, yields an additional separate reward. It's no different than a gravimetric exploration site. Sure you may have *found* it and spawned it, but anyone can enter and mine the asteroids there.
Salvage yourself as you go along, bring a corpmate/alt to salvage as you go, or move to a less populated missioning area.
Salvaging as a profession has a long and rich history, both in real life and in science fiction.
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katana78
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Posted - 2008.02.04 22:30:00 -
[249]
your days certainly will have a end you slacking people whithout imagination that have to steal to get some isk .. why if you are soooo cool dont go to 0.0 where you can get a response ??? you are corwards and slack.
and i will opend a petiotion for harassment. clear prov in this foro..
get a live ...
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.04 22:33:00 -
[250]
Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 04/02/2008 22:33:58
Originally by: katana78 your days certainly will have a end you slacking people whithout imagination that have to steal to get some isk .. why if you are soooo cool dont go to 0.0 where you can get a response ??? you are corwards and slack.
and i will opend a petiotion for harassment. clear prov in this foro..
get a live ...
Please stop, you are giving us carebears a bad reputation....
CCP has already stated many times that this is intended mechanics. There are several link in this very thread.
Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
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Mad Crafter
Green Men Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.02.04 23:18:00 -
[251]
All these post winning about mission invasion make me want to go give it a try.
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Oldin Kinrod
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Posted - 2008.02.04 23:19:00 -
[252]
That's strange, because wrecks have no ownership. Check out the knowledgebase for more info on who is allowed to salvage wrecks.
Quote: If I cant attack him without getting concorded this is plain stupid and has NOTHING to do with pvp-orientated.
Yes it is, the oither player beat you to the wreck and salvaged it first.
As has been said many times across the board, there are ways to cut down the frequency of people "intruding" your missions. One of them is getting out of the mission hubs. People stealing your wrecks? Players intruding your missions? |
Goyda
Veni Vidi Vici. Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2008.02.04 23:35:00 -
[253]
*looks at the dead horse everyone has been kicking*
*sigh*
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Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.05 09:51:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Scharfe Kerneisen The system is broke, it needs fixed, period.
A compelling argument. I particularly liked the part where it was backed up with no reasoning or logic.
Well done.
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Connor Banks
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.02.05 10:20:00 -
[255]
Edited by: Connor Banks on 05/02/2008 10:21:16 A salvage thief entered my mission the other day. My response was to blow up all the wrecks so that the thief wouldnt get any money from my mission.
However, the thief managed to salvage a few wrecks. Some of the wrecks droped loot. Because i was a bit lazy and i didnt want to stick around and wait for the thief to perhaps loot my cans i decided to blow up my cans to. Now, one of the cans (as white as the other cans in the overwiev) triggered a pop-up window where it said that me shooting that can would be an aggressive act. How the fukk is that possible?! I thought that white cans are MINE and yellow cans are SOMEONE ELSEs.
The only conclusion i draw from this is that the thief put some of his stuff in my can. In my oppinion, that should be an aggressive act. Even more, i also believe by opening a can to check whats inside should be an aggressive act. I.e. if you want to peek inside you have to pay the price!
All in all, i dont mind ninja salvaging. But i do mind the above! Shouldnt i be allowed to blow up my stuff?!?!?
/Connor
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Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.05 11:00:00 -
[256]
Could it have been a can with mission specific loot in? Otherwise I'd bug report it or get Gm clarification as to what happens if someone tries to put something of their's in your can.
Sounds like a bug or something that needs fixing to me. Looking in can shouldn't flag another player, that is just a silly idea. But another player (outside of your corp)shouldn't be able to put their possessions in your can either.
Of course, if we didn't have the stupid can flagging system in the first place this wouldn't be a problem.
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Connor Banks
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.02.05 12:58:00 -
[257]
Edited by: Connor Banks on 05/02/2008 12:59:00 Aah, thanks for the answer . That salvage thief was indeed a member of SWA, as am I.
Hmm...i still dont like that someone else should be able to put stuff in your can, corp member or not. In my oppinion, cans are personal and by default no one but the owner should be able to put stuff in there.
Perhaps modifying the can template to include settings so that the owner can decide who can and who cannot put stuff in your can (for example: no one, gang, corp, all) is something for CCP to consider?
/Connor
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Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.05 13:08:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Connor Banks Hmm...i still dont like that someone else should be able to put stuff in your can, corp member or not. In my oppinion, cans are personal and by default no one but the owner should be able to put stuff in there.
It's great that you have that opinion, but once you join a real corp rather than an NPC corp you'll realise it is not really necessary to view cans that way. Which is my advice to you, join a real corp where you can trust your fellow corpmates, rather than be in an NPC corp where no one owes you any loyalties.
Originally by: Connor Banks Perhaps modifying the can template to include settings so that the owner can decide who can and who cannot put stuff in your can (for example: no one, gang, corp, all) is something for CCP to consider?
To be fair, that is not a terrible idea, though frankly any changes that make it more comfortable for people to stay in NPC corps I don't welcome. Far better to encourage players out of those corps and into player corporations where such precautions are not necessary.
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Bob Stuart
Federation Fleet Chaos Incarnate.
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Posted - 2008.02.05 13:43:00 -
[259]
Edited by: Bob Stuart on 05/02/2008 13:43:45 How to do missions without running into salvage "thieves"?
Group up. 3 people can do a mission in less than 1/4 the time it would take for 1 person to do it. This reduces the time spent in mission, reducing the time that your mission can be found. Similarly, group salvaging operation allows rapid cleanup. It's more profitable and more fun as well.
Consider, I know people that do missions all day in busy places like Dodixie, and not encounter salvage "thieves", because they group up and get it done quickly.
Besides all this, the value of salvage is dropping. Melted cap consoles used to be 600k+ a couple months ago. Now, in the same place, it's 275k that they are selling for. Those trends continue, and the salvage isn't going to be worth much, so even if it is "stolen", it's not going to be a big deal. Of course, if you're not interested in selling it, instead keeping it for rigs, then that means you have an industrial character in your corp, so why aren't they grouping with you?
Also, suppose the salvage is "yours", Fine. What steps are you taking to ensure that "your" property is safe? Any?
Also, taking from cans didn't use to cause flagging, people could find your missions and take the loot, without you being able to do anything. Now, you have flagging, and you can attack someone stealing, but in reality you're no better off, because someone stealing is doing so because it's a trap. Salvage flagging would just be used to try to destroy your mission ship, you would not be any better off.
Also, Hi Syphurous, how's CAS these days?
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Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.05 14:00:00 -
[260]
Originally by: Bob Stuart Edited by: Bob Stuart on 05/02/2008 13:43:45 How to do missions without running into salvage "thieves"?
Simple. You do missions in those systems where salvagers don't operate. It is only worth their while to operate in certain, high population, systems. While I wholly support your suggested approach, it takes even less effort to research what other agents you can easily gain access to (or may already have access to if your faction standings are high enough) and move to them.
Originally by: Bob Stuart [Also, taking from cans didn't use to cause flagging, people could find your missions and take the loot, without you being able to do anything. Now, you have flagging, and you can attack someone stealing, but in reality you're no better off, because someone stealing is doing so because it's a trap. Salvage flagging would just be used to try to destroy your mission ship, you would not be any better off.
Well said, QFT and all that jazz.
Flagging of wrecks would just mean we'd have "Can Flagging - The Next Whining Generation."
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GM Faolchu
Game Masters
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Posted - 2008.02.05 20:11:00 -
[261]
This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. |
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Jessamine
Umbra Legion
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Posted - 2008.02.05 21:04:00 -
[262]
Edited by: Jessamine on 05/02/2008 21:06:02
Originally by: GM Faolchu This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
pwnt. Only thing better would be a GM reply of solely 'GTFO of Motsu'
Edit: Although by looking at the ops standing it should be 'GTFO of Dodixie'
Wish that had come 9 pages ago. Now we'll get another 9 pages of 'That's Bull!'
Custom Corporations for Hi-Sec POS Anchoring - All Empires Available!
inEvE Stats |
Beness
Absolutely No Retreat Synchr0nicity
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Posted - 2008.02.05 22:10:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Jessamine Edited by: Jessamine on 05/02/2008 21:06:02
Originally by: GM Faolchu This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
pwnt. Only thing better would be a GM reply of solely 'GTFO of Motsu'
Edit: Although by looking at the ops standing it should be 'GTFO of Dodixie'
Wish that had come 9 pages ago. Now we'll get another 9 pages of 'That's Bull!'
"Moo!"
Or whatever it is the sound that a bull makes.
Can we now pay attention to relevant issues, like I get flagged when I take loot from a wreck generated by a gang mate if that mate happens to be docked?
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Summersnow
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Posted - 2008.02.05 22:30:00 -
[264]
Originally by: GM Faolchu This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
but if I stumble across an abandoned can somewhere don't I get in trouble for looting it?
This seems counterintuitive.
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Oldin Kinrod
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Posted - 2008.02.05 23:18:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Summersnow but if I stumble across an abandoned can somewhere don't I get in trouble for looting it?
This seems counterintuitive.
Thank the miners for that one. There is a post somewhere on the forums where someone gives an in depth backstory of this, but the jist of it is:
1) Can flagging never used to be a mechanic - all cans were free game. 2) Miners realised the potential of mining into a jet can 3) Ore theives would steal the ore from miners 4) Miners whined on the forums asking for some way to be able to fight back in high sec (sound familiar?) 5) CCP introduced can flagging 6) Can flipping was born and is now commonly used to start fights with unsuspecting players.
People stealing your wrecks? Players intruding your missions? |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.02.06 00:17:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Oldin Kinrod
1) Can flagging never used to be a mechanic - all cans were free game. 2) Miners realised the potential of mining into a jet can 3) Ore theives would steal the ore from miners 4) Miners whined on the forums asking for some way to be able to fight back in high sec (sound familiar?) 5) CCP forced can flagging instead of making it an option for those who want it 6) Can flipping was born and is now commonly used to start fights with unsuspecting players.
Fixed that for ya.
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Righteous Deeds
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Posted - 2008.02.06 01:56:00 -
[267]
I don't think anyone doubts that it's an intentional game mechanic...what we're saying is it's one that is frustrating and makes no sense. The ownerless flotsam position isn't exactly consistent with the also intentional game mechanic of loot, for example.
We're all about "Eve is a PVP game" when justifying an aspect we like, and then we have a system like this, where one player can exploit the efforts of another completely without risk. "Eve is a harsh dangerous place...' unless you're a salvager. The logical inconsistencies are many and obvious.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.02.06 02:25:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Righteous Deeds I don't think anyone doubts that it's an intentional game mechanic...
Correction: nobody with much sense does, at least not once they've had the facts pointed out to them. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people without much sense, and you can see many examples of them denying that it's intentional in this very thread as well as others. (Hi Xaen! o/ )
Quote: what we're saying is it's one that is frustrating and makes no sense.
The ownerless flotsam position isn't exactly consistent with the also intentional game mechanic of loot, for example.
We're all about "Eve is a PVP game" when justifying an aspect we like, and then we have a system like this, where one player can exploit the efforts of another completely without risk. "Eve is a harsh dangerous place...' unless you're a salvager. The logical inconsistencies are many and obvious.
Not so obvious that that everything you said hasn't been debated back and forth a hundred times before.
Anyway, to Features and Ideas with you! Shoo! SHOO! :P * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Commander OTG
Caldari Logistic Exposium Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.06 04:04:00 -
[269]
I have to admit that I am a tad bit sorry about the final decision. I am a whole hearted salvager. I do it as my primary source of income, but I have managed to do it with respect for my fellow players and it has been a benefit for myself and those that have let me salvage their wrecks.
This latest ruling allows every low life thief to swoop in and do their worst.
For the record, I have a nasty, mean and ruthless pirate character that I will be offering services to the mission runners. He is willing to lose his ship as often as necessary to prove a point to the thieves (destroying their salvage ships...probing ships and every implant i can possibly get a shot off at)
Originally by: GM Faolchu It is within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission and steal the loot/salvage.
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Sigul Siento
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Posted - 2008.02.06 07:47:00 -
[270]
Edited by: Sigul Siento on 06/02/2008 07:47:28
Originally by: Commander OTG
This latest ruling allows every low life thief to swoop in and do their worst.
You seem to have misunderstood it though. Picking through garbage does not a thief make. low life or otherwise.
What it does is allow anyone with the required SP in probing and related skills, who have the time and patience to track down wrecks via the cumbersome method of tracking down things that aren't wrecks, to salvage the wrecks they do find. I'm not saying it is HARD, compared to many other things in this game, but it is a tad more than just "swooping in". Unless you refer to belts and other persistent areas, in which case yeah I guess so. But there's not much money in that.
Originally by: Commander OTG For the record, I have a nasty, mean and ruthless pirate character that I will be offering services to the mission runners. He is willing to lose his ship as often as necessary to prove a point to the thieves (destroying their salvage ships...probing ships and every implant i can possibly get a shot off at)
The point you would be proving would be "Don't fly a destroyer/frigate for salvaging, use a big ship fitted with all the plates, extenders and resist mods you have room for"
Yes I do love the smell of dead horse in the morning, what of it?
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Commander OTG
Caldari Logistic Exposium Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.06 08:46:00 -
[271]
As far as the skills go...I have every possible skill relating to salvaging, hacking, cloaking and probing maxxed to level 5. I run tech2 rigs on my slvage ships and have a head full of the best implants offered...so I have done my skilling time...yet i ask the missioners before i take the "free" wrecks. and I do not distract them in their deadspace while they are fighting the rats.
I may have not made my point clearly. Thieves may not be the right title. I ws merely referring to those that are rude and dont accept the fact that those wrecks would not be there if it wasn't for the previous work by the mission runner.
Originally by: GM Faolchu It is within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission and steal the loot/salvage.
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Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.06 10:03:00 -
[272]
Originally by: Commander OTG I may have not made my point clearly. Thieves may not be the right title. I ws merely referring to those that are rude and dont accept the fact that those wrecks would not be there if it wasn't for the previous work by the mission runner.
It might be rude for people to take wrecks without asking, but thats about all. The mission runner has already been recompensed for their "work" (used in the loosest possible sense) in the form of ISK for NPC bounties, LPs and mission rewards. As a mission runner, I resent the position taken by others that wrecks are somehow part of the overall reward for running missions. They are not, they are a byproduct.
Wrecks are a reward for whoever salvages them first.
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Doc Imp
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Posted - 2008.02.06 11:25:00 -
[273]
This current mechanic is idiotic. I've got these asshats in my mission within moments of starting them sometimes, looking to salvage. No asking, no are you salvaging that? They go right for the bs wrecks, even had one hug my salvage ship and just go after them as I brought them in. There's no risk/reward equation here, I can't do anything but shoot the wreck in question and that's crap. I run an alt to salvage so it's not like these guys are finding my abandoned wrecks, they're coming in with concord protection and stealing income generating items from me and there is absolutely nothing I can do to discourage the act besides destroying the wrecks.
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Righteous Deeds
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Posted - 2008.02.06 11:37:00 -
[274]
Edited by: Righteous Deeds on 06/02/2008 11:37:44
Originally by: Sendraks
It might be rude for people to take wrecks without asking, but thats about all. The mission runner has already been recompensed for their "work" (used in the loosest possible sense) in the form of ISK for NPC bounties, LPs and mission rewards. As a mission runner, I resent the position taken by others that wrecks are somehow part of the overall reward for running missions. They are not, they are a byproduct.
Wrecks are a reward for whoever salvages them first.
What is the salvager being recompensed for? All the same things the mission runner has invested EXCEPT taking the time and risk to create the wreck.
There really isn't a logical way to justify this mechanic other than "CCP wants it this way." And that argument doesn't exactly mean it makes any sense whatever.
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Sigul Siento
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Posted - 2008.02.06 11:43:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Commander OTG
...yet i ask the missioners before i take the "free" wrecks. and I do not distract them in their deadspace while they are fighting the rats.
Ah, well, what's rude is of course subjective. But a missioner that leave the wrecks behind with or without the intention of coming back later have effectively abandoned them as I see it, and as such I do not consider it rude to sift through them looking for salvage.
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Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.06 11:47:00 -
[276]
Originally by: Righteous Deeds What is the salvager being recompensed for?
Cost of probes. Time spent finding the wrecks. Time spent salvaging the wrecks.
Originally by: Righteous Deeds All the same things the mission runner has invested EXCEPT taking the time and risk to create the wreck.
The mission runners recompense for the mission comes in the form of the reward, the LPs and the NPC bounties. That is the way it has always been. Wrecks are a by-product of mission running that has been added to the game. It is a presumption on the part of some mission runners, not all, that the wrecks are a defacto part of the mission reward. They are not. There is no reason why they should be.
Originally by: Righteous Deeds There really isn't a logical way to justify this mechanic other than "CCP wants it this way." And that argument doesn't exactly mean it makes any sense whatever.
Not a single argument that makes any sense has been put forward as to why wrecks should be flagged for ownership. Not one. All the arguments in favour of it basically amount to greedy mission runners just wanting additional, guaranteed rewards on top of the hefty sums they already receive.
Furthermore, as has been amply demonstrated umpteen times, there is no need to change the system for salvaging or wrecks when it is so very easy for mission runners to make measures to avoid this happening to them.
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Menyet Ikeemoo
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Posted - 2008.02.06 12:28:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Doc Imp ...they're stealing income generating items from me and there is absolutely nothing I can do to discourage the act besides destroying the wrecks.
If you find a grav site with exploration, then someone else finds it too and he start mining next to you, thats the same, he steals income from you. So make all the roids yours too?
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Kusha'an
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.06 12:35:00 -
[278]
1. The rules for salvaging are not consistent. If the wreck belongs to anybody, then the wreck should be tractor-able after it has been looted. It is not. Either flag the wreck or make it tractorable. Saying you want salvaging as a profession but then forcing salvagers to fly to a wreck defeats the purpose.
2. For those pirates who are bragging about teamwork and "I dare you to attack me, my gangmates will kick your at-symbol dollar-sign dollar-sign, the only response appopriate to that is:
What a waste of time, a gang of battlecruisers organized in attack mode just to get a lousy armor plate? That's hilarious. I hope when you try to salvage my wrecks I've just killed a bunch of serpentis. Jeez you could make more money mining. Good luck with that career. At that rate I'll be billions ahead of you.
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Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.06 12:44:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Kusha'an 1. The rules for salvaging are not consistent. If the wreck belongs to anybody, then the wreck should be tractor-able after it has been looted. It is not. Either flag the wreck or make it tractorable. Saying you want salvaging as a profession but then forcing salvagers to fly to a wreck defeats the purpose.
I agree. Wrecks should be tractorable by anyone.
Originally by: Kusha'an 2. For those pirates who are bragging about teamwork and "I dare you to attack me, my gangmates will kick your at-symbol dollar-sign dollar-sign, the only response appopriate to that is:
What a waste of time, a gang of battlecruisers organized in attack mode just to get a lousy armor plate? That's hilarious. I hope when you try to salvage my wrecks I've just killed a bunch of serpentis. Jeez you could make more money mining. Good luck with that career. At that rate I'll be billions ahead of you.
While I agree with your sentiment, remember that eve is a game played for fun and somepeople get pleasure out of such peversity.
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Bhodistafa
Gallente Amen Anera
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Posted - 2008.02.06 13:29:00 -
[280]
Can we let this die already? Yeah I know I've bumped it but please!!
Wrecks are NOT your property after you've created them merely the loot in them. Anyone can salavage the components from them and without getting aggro'd.
If it bothers you that much then shoot or salvage your wrecks as you go. Failing that probe out someone else's mission site and join in by salavging their wrecks!
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Koppite
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Posted - 2008.02.06 13:40:00 -
[281]
tough luck. iskies to be made and lots of isk in selling rigs
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Dromidas Shadowmoon
Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.02.06 17:25:00 -
[282]
Salvaging other peoples wrecks should flag you as thief, I agree. Not that I've had any problems myself, but it's just stupid that they can essentially loot your wreck without any sort of repercussion. (Often the salvage on a BS is 10x the value of the loot) _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it. |
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.06 18:23:00 -
[283]
Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Salvaging other peoples wrecks should flag you as thief, I agree.
Why? Give one good reason?
Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Not that I've had any problems myself, but it's just stupid that they can essentially loot your wreck without any sort of repercussion. (Often the salvage on a BS is 10x the value of the loot)
So what? Just because it is more expensive is no reason to flag it. It is space flotsam, it has been stated numerous times why wrecks are not flagged.
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Zao Jin
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Posted - 2008.02.07 00:45:00 -
[284]
Originally by: Humwawa *sigh* Then something is not logic and/or wrong.
I killed the ship - The items in the ship belong to me but the wreck doesnt??? Wheres the logic in that?
This person who is salvaging my (not my whatever wreck) is using highsec as protection (he is griefing me) If I cannot legitamtly fight a griefer it turns into harrasment...
Griefing and ninja salvaging aren't the same thing.
Although you could grief particularly anal mission runners via ninja salvaging. Say, if he gets three of his mates to 24/7 watch and scan you, take your stuff while you're not looking... EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU RUN A MISSION.
Really though, griefing is consistently denying a person a portion of the game experience, "for the lulz."
Say, a gang of 5 guys who see this whiny post and all get in gank-fitted Caracals, scan you down and suicide gank you over and over and over and over...
Now that's griefing. :)
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Zao Jin
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Posted - 2008.02.07 00:51:00 -
[285]
Originally by: Doc Imp This current mechanic is idiotic. I've got these asshats in my mission within moments of starting them sometimes, looking to salvage. No asking, no are you salvaging that? They go right for the bs wrecks, even had one hug my salvage ship and just go after them as I brought them in. There's no risk/reward equation here, I can't do anything but shoot the wreck in question and that's crap. I run an alt to salvage so it's not like these guys are finding my abandoned wrecks, they're coming in with concord protection and stealing income generating items from me and there is absolutely nothing I can do to discourage the act besides destroying the wrecks.
It is funny to watch local when you start blowing the wrecks up though. I like the guy who asks first. I don't actually salvage my missions (I get better ISK per hour just going on and blowing up the next bunch o rats) so if you ask, I'll always say "sure, whatever... wait until I leave." If you come in while I'm doing the mission, I will waste my time blowing up wrecks to ensure you've wasted yours. It works as a great demotivator.
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Zao Jin
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Posted - 2008.02.07 00:54:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Righteous Deeds Edited by: Righteous Deeds on 06/02/2008 11:37:44
What is the salvager being recompensed for? All the same things the mission runner has invested EXCEPT taking the time and risk to create the wreck.
There really isn't a logical way to justify this mechanic other than "CCP wants it this way." And that argument doesn't exactly mean it makes any sense whatever.
There's a quote from CCP Wrangler going around in some people's sigs. I suggest reviewing it.
Then start applying some ingenuity.
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Zao Jin
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Posted - 2008.02.07 00:58:00 -
[287]
Originally by: Kusha'an
2. For those pirates who are bragging about teamwork and "I dare you to attack me, my gangmates will kick your at-symbol dollar-sign dollar-sign, the only response appopriate to that is:
What a waste of time, a gang of battlecruisers organized in attack mode just to get a lousy armor plate? That's hilarious. I hope when you try to salvage my wrecks I've just killed a bunch of serpentis. Jeez you could make more money mining. Good luck with that career. At that rate I'll be billions ahead of you.
I would hope those pirates aren't doing it for the plate, they're doing it hoping you'll attack. People do really dumb things when they're made to feel powerless. :)
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Righteous Deeds
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Posted - 2008.02.07 01:54:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Zao Jin
There's a quote from CCP Wrangler going around in some people's sigs. I suggest reviewing it.
Then start applying some ingenuity.
Thanks for the suggestion. Next.
You seem to be missing the salient point. Yes, mission-runners can limit the impact of salvagers...typically at some cost to themselves, either in time, inferior agents, or riskier locations. The proper response to a poor game mechanic is to fix it, not just live with it. This is also why we all make our cases in these forums. Rumor has it CCP frequently changes their minds on what their "intentional mechanics" are. There's these things called patches, see, and CCP is changing the rules all the time.
Now start applying some logic. Expound, if you would, on the practical difference between wrecks and cans, and perhaps note all the other mechanics in the game allowing one player to exploit another without accepting any real risk.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2008.02.07 03:43:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Righteous Deeds
Now start applying some logic. Expound, if you would, on the practical difference between wrecks and cans...
I'm not sure how that's relevant, unless the best point you can come up with is "consistency in all things". I find that argument not very persuasive, but even if you think it's critical, look at the behavior of player wrecks and then tell me which mechanic here is the inconsistency. Would you be happy if flagging were removed from jetcans and the loot in npc wrecks? That would make things nice and tidy, if that's truly what floats your boat.
Quote: ... and perhaps note all the other mechanics in the game allowing one player to exploit another without accepting any real risk.
Let's see...scamming, corp theft, ganking, trading...perhaps more? Though I think your use of the word risk is rather limited or misguided. Risk in this game isn't just about the risk of getting your ship blown up. Among other things, it's just as much about the risk of putting in time and energy and getting little or nothing on any given try, especially due to the efforts of other players. That's a kind of risk common to every profession in EVE I can think of, including ninja-salvaging, with the exception of one: hisec mission running.
The salvaging system adds at least a partial element of that even to missions. I think -that- kind of consistency is good, though I understand how it must be a hard adjustment for many to make. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
FlameGlow
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Posted - 2008.02.07 07:45:00 -
[290]
Although I don't care about all those whines I think there should be some nerf against ninja-salvagers. When a noob can pay his timecodes with isk right from the trial by salvaging in a mission hub it certainly indicates something is wrong there.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:31:00 -
[291]
Originally by: FlameGlow Although I don't care about all those whines I think there should be some nerf against ninja-salvagers. When a noob can pay his timecodes with isk right from the trial by salvaging in a mission hub it certainly indicates something is wrong there.
Agreed that there is something wrong. Disagreed that it is a problem with salvagers. Finding a mission runner through exploration is pretty hard, UNLESS you do it in a busy mission node where the sheer number of mission runners favor you. In the same way, a noob can pay his timecodes right from trial by speculating on jita market. Does that mean that the market is broken too? Actually it means that there is something wrong, agreed, but what is wrong are the players. If everybody clusters in motsu or other busy mission nodes it's not the noob player's fault. If everybody buys stuff in jita at 30% more than the price they might pay if they planned ahead, it's not the noob player's fault either. He is merely reaping rewards from stuff that the more experienced players, by their actions not their words, are considering non-relevant issues.
The point is that if THAT becomes a real concern, the involved PLAYERS will start to take corrective actions, because they have the chance to solve it. Exactly like on the market, if the players do not take action to solve their problems, that means that the problem is not really that important.
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Sigul Siento
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Posted - 2008.02.07 09:49:00 -
[292]
Originally by: FlameGlow Although I don't care about all those whines I think there should be some nerf against ninja-salvagers. When a noob can pay his timecodes with isk right from the trial by salvaging in a mission hub it certainly indicates something is wrong there.
So you say nerf every feature that enables a new but dedicated character (a NEW character isn't necessarily played by a noob) to make "too much" ISK? I'm not convinced of the wisdom of such a policy, to be honest. Where would you draw the line? 50m/month? Because, *obviously*, if this amount of ISK/month is wrong for salvagers, it would be wrong for any other endavour. Corp thieving would definitively have to go. Being a clever trader is right out. Missions would have to have their rewards nerfed significantly. How much can you theoretically make per month in mining in a mining cruiser? Bet it's enough to pay for a months play... NERF!
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FlameGlow
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Posted - 2008.02.07 11:47:00 -
[293]
Originally by: Sigul Siento
Originally by: FlameGlow Although I don't care about all those whines I think there should be some nerf against ninja-salvagers. When a noob can pay his timecodes with isk right from the trial by salvaging in a mission hub it certainly indicates something is wrong there.
So you say nerf every feature that enables a new but dedicated character (a NEW character isn't necessarily played by a noob) to make "too much" ISK? I'm not convinced of the wisdom of such a policy, to be honest. Where would you draw the line? 50m/month? Because, *obviously*, if this amount of ISK/month is wrong for salvagers, it would be wrong for any other endavour. Corp thieving would definitively have to go. Being a clever trader is right out. Missions would have to have their rewards nerfed significantly. How much can you theoretically make per month in mining in a mining cruiser? Bet it's enough to pay for a months play... NERF!
It's not about making too much isk, it's making isk with too little effort ;) With proper backround selected at char creation you could start collecting wrecks on 5th day of trial(some even say on 3rd). Now tell me, when a *clever trader* can get enough cash(skills are probably sufficient from background) to bring in enough profits in one month to buy a GTC? Corp thieving on trial? megaLOL, corp like that deservs being stolen from Missions?Hmm, maybe it's possible with lvl 3 missions all day and night long to get a gtc in 14 days, but wait, trials can't train battlecruisers so no lvl 3. Mining, I never was much into it, but the profit is pathetic if you use a cruiser in hisec. Probably won't dig enough unless you run macro 23/7(and what do you know, you can get banned for that)
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Sigul Siento
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Posted - 2008.02.07 12:04:00 -
[294]
Originally by: FlameGlow It's not about making too much isk, it's making isk with too little effort ;)
Takes more effort than missions and mining.
Originally by: FlameGlow With proper backround selected at char creation you could start collecting wrecks on 5th day of trial(some even say on 3rd). Now tell me, when a *clever trader* can get enough cash(skills are probably sufficient from background) to bring in enough profits in one month to buy a GTC?
Buy low, sell high? I am of course referring to someone who are dedicated and spend a lot of time doing the relvant research.
Originally by: FlameGlow Corp thieving on trial? megaLOL, corp like that deservs being stolen from Missions?Hmm, maybe it's possible with lvl 3 missions all day and night long to get a gtc in 14 days, but wait, trials can't train battlecruisers so no lvl 3.
Ah, I was thinking on the basis of keeping your account sustained, while you meant having the money ready during the trial. So ok, not quite as easy as I made out. Though the possiblity is there, in theory. Yes it would involve quite a bit of time spent, but so would the salvaging. You make it out to be that you can just fly around and pick up battleship wrecks at will, which doesn't seem entirely fair. But sure, if you have a lucky trial and keep finding lots of abandoend wreckage sites, you'll make a lot. Just as you would if you get lucky and some corp invites you in with wide acces whereupon you clean their hangars. The common point in those two examples is that other people let you make all that ISK through not caring or just being stupid.
Originally by: FlameGlow
Mining, I never was much into it, but the profit is pathetic if you use a cruiser in hisec. Probably won't dig enough unless you run macro 23/7(and what do you know, you can get banned for that)
In my nooby attempts at mining with a prospector alt I was able to get a few mill of ore every few hours. 8 hours a day for 14 days should get you enough to pay for 30 days.
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Mdram
Caldari Crimson Rain Corp
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Posted - 2008.02.07 13:50:00 -
[295]
i noticed yesterday when i was in a mission an 8day old player found me and came int o salvage my wrecks.
so its wither not that hard or hes using an alt after scanning.
kill rights would be so nice
whats the difference between salvaging a wreck or opening can?
this really should be changed.
When in doubt, reload and fire another clip. |
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.07 13:59:00 -
[296]
Edited by: Sendraks on 07/02/2008 14:00:03
Originally by: Mdram i noticed yesterday when i was in a mission an 8day old player found me and came int o salvage my wrecks.
so its wither not that hard or hes using an alt after scanning.
Or you were in Motsu or some other similar busy system, where any fool can lobe a probe into space and find a mission runner. Finding mission runners in busy systems is not hard. Finding a specific mission runner is much harder.
If mission runners didn't make things easy for salvagers by being too lazy to research other hi-sec agents they could work for, there wouldn't be these whines.
Originally by: Mdram kill rights would be so nice
No it wouldn't. Believe me you don't want this. Every lame ass whining idiot who asked for kill rights on cans quickly found out that it wasn't something they wanted once it was implemented.
Originally by: Mdram whats the difference between salvaging a wreck or opening can?
I don't have to fit salvagers to open a can.
Seriously, there is no difference between unsecured cans and wrecks floating in space. There are both flotsam, free to be picked up by whoever wants them. CCP made a mistake changing the system for cans over a year ago now, which is the cause of the current inconsistency. Hopefully they'll see sense and change cans back to how they used to be.
Originally by: Mdram this really should be changed.
Yes I agree. Can flagging should be removed from the game post haste. I can't imagine for a second that you mean wrecks should be flagged, as you've not cited any reasons why they should be.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.07 14:10:00 -
[297]
Originally by: GM Faolchu This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Excellent. That settles it then. Glad to see CCP taking a reasonable stance on this.
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Daddy Xerox
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Posted - 2008.02.08 02:55:00 -
[298]
*ffft* There's a darn easy fix to salvage thieves.
Salvaging no longer drops a can, all contents go to the salvaging ship (with attendant looting aggro). Then make it so that all wrecks drop something (1 ammo unit or logfile, whatever).
There, fixed.
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Yurii Chan
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Posted - 2008.02.08 02:59:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Daddy Xerox *ffft* There's a darn easy fix to salvage thieves.
Salvaging no longer drops a can, all contents go to the salvaging ship (with attendant looting aggro). Then make it so that all wrecks drop something (1 ammo unit or logfile, whatever).
There, fixed.
already had that. was scrapped. guess CCP figured out current method is better. frankly, it is.
now back to scanning missioners down in motsu
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