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Salvaging other peoples wrecks needs to be a criminal act !!!!!!!

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justcheckingthemarket	Posted - 2007.06.21 18:14:00 - [121] ahhhhh, who started this all over again, shame on you, necro!!!
Loraque Minmatar The Dragons Angel	Posted - 2007.06.22 01:47:00 - [122] I like the system as it stands, with one exception. Simply put, if you can salvage the wreckage you should be able to tractor it. That would of course only be wreckage with no loot in it (or your own loot). this is the only real flaw I see with the system.
Naverum	Posted - 2007.06.22 06:08:00 - [123] I like to put a perspective/idea out here. It perhaps has nothing to do with wrecks. I came to the asteroid first, I shove my mining laser in it FIRST! This roid is rightfully mine, you shoving your mining laser into my rock should allow me to shoot you rightfully, I used (almost no) hard work to find this rock, and I will not stand by watching you stealing my mine-to-be ore! Please let me attack my asteroid thief without being concorded, PLEASE! Ya, I am not really a miner, by the way for all you who think I am crazy.
bellator militaris	Posted - 2007.06.22 11:20:00 - [124] Main Entry: 1sal+vage Pronunciation: \ˈsal-vij\ Function: noun Etymology: French, from Middle French, from salver to save ù more at save Date: 1645 1 a: compensation paid for saving a ship or its cargo from the perils of the sea or for the lives and property rescued in a wreck b: the act of saving or rescuing a ship or its cargo c: the act of saving or rescuing property in danger (as from fire) 2 a: property saved from destruction in a calamity (as a wreck or fire) b: something extracted (as from rubbish) as valuable or useful Since so many pilots have so many interesting ideas I thought I would explore the dictionary.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2007.06.22 13:41:00 - [125] Flag thieves when you're on the same grid. Free for all otherwise. No stupid timer or whatnot. Presence should be required. If you're there, it's yours. If you leave the place, others can take the stuff. _________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well.. -
Satura Caldari Mucho Dolor The Insomniacs	Posted - 2007.09.12 08:51:00 - [126] Edited by: Satura on 12/09/2007 08:53:02 Originally by: Callthetruth Originally by: Humwawa sigh Then something is not logic and/or wrong. I killed the ship - The items in the ship belong to me but the wreck doesnt??? Wheres the logic in that? This person who is salvaging my (not my whatever wreck) is using highsec as protection (he is griefing me) If I cannot legitamtly fight a griefer it turns into harrasment... As I said I have np that it is possible (even in highsec that someone can scan me and then loot wrecks which I(!) have only killed 30 sec ago)BUT I cant attack this player?! This person knows this and does it BECAUSE he/she knows he/she is safe because not criminally flagged.......... This illogical - has NOTHING to do with pvp-orientated game - is an exploit in my eyes !! Everything has risk/reward in eve - and thats how it should be in eve,but this is ZERO risk and only ****es people off. youer use of the word grief is wrong. Join a corp ( u havent) and get some assistance have someone come in thats friendly to u and salvage-loot youre wrecks. I know because i scan down and salvage-loot other ppls missions for a profitable living yes i do loose ships when ppl blow me up and im quite ok to have that element in the game they blow me up due to my own greed-slow reaction then so be it Wow, you lose a vigil or other cheap t1 frig once in a while, when you are dumb enough to loot something. And gain tens of millions. I see one or two month old players when i do missions with me. When they steal something they might pop, but most of the times they just salvage every fricking pocket i clear with 0 risk. GG. I just want to be able to shoot them to pieces even if they don't loot, and only salvage. Don't really care that some leave the wrecks and just start another mission and those wrecks get wasted. I salvage almost everything because i like to make my own rigs for pvp ships. Maybe that's why i care about MY wrecks. If you are about to say "Because the wrecks are not yours" don't bother, that was said 10000 times before, and i consider them my wrecks .
Koppite	Posted - 2007.09.12 09:53:00 - [127] salvage is there for the taking.. ill take salvage off mission runners as long as they are npc corps.... if u dont like your salvage being 'salvaged' (not stolen) then salvage once popped..if not deal with it..coz i aint gonna stop and ccp arent going to change it. happy salvaging
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles 3asy Company	Posted - 2007.09.12 11:13:00 - [128] Anyone should be able to salvage a wreck. Salvage rights. www.eve-players.com
Vanlade Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:35:00 - [129] no - Vanlade
Yoinx Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:48:00 - [130] Edited by: Yoinx on 12/09/2007 18:49:39 I have to agree, and disagree with a few of the posts I've read here. Wrecks belong to the last person to shoot it before it popped. This is why you cannot loot them without getting an aggression countdown. I believe salvaging wrecks should also give an aggression countdown. For one reason. The ninja salvagers could still scan you out and salvage your wrecks while you're fighting the mission as they do now sometimes. Otherwise, yes... I feel you should be able to attack someone that is salvaging your wrecks. These wrecks belong to the player, and thus the other playing is stealing the salvage that could be sold. Bottom line. Looting or salvaging someone elses' wreck should win you an aggression countdown as long as you're in the grid, if you arent... the other person should be able to loot it and salvage it with no consequence. Either way the person who owns the wreck is losing potential isk, thus it's essentially stealing either way. But I do feel people should be able to salvage them, and make the choice if they dont mind the agression countdown. - I wish I had something witty to put in a signature. -
Taelech	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:21:00 - [131] In maritime law, anyone may salvage. Once a ship is in distress from perils of the sea (or in EVE - space) the ship is free for someone to save. There is a way to keep people from salvaging the wrecks you create. Salvage them first. I know someone is going to compare the loot to the salvage materials and say that there is an inconsistancy... and there may be but the loot could be viewed as prize. Prize may only be claimed by the victor of a battle. Prize consists of functional equipment (usually an entire ship, but not always). Salvage is not usable in its current condition, something must be done to restore it to functionality (pumped out, towed, ect...) The system works for now, I'm sure if it gets too bad, CCP will change the laws. Taelech - Professor emeritus, Caldari Business Tribunal School of Law
Argus Kell Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:49:00 - [132] Originally by: Rali Redclaw Back on topic. You guys are thinking of it in out-of-game context. In the game world, what is a wreck? It is a piece of worthless junk, a ruined ship cast aside. Why would CONCORD spend their time to defend destroyed ships? It only has value because CCP created a new skill for salvaging so it is possibly valuable to YOU. Ship cargo is different in that it is still intact and thusly has value to the original owner. If you're so concerned with your wrecks, clean them up while you're on the mission. I was almost in favour of this petition until I read this post. This is an absolutely accurate description of how a large corporate entity would work in a universe like Eve's. "Don't touch that loot, he earnt it by getting rid of a pirate" "Sure, feel free to scrap the trash littering our space" Ultimately, this is just how it is, and while I can understand from a technical perspective that there is a lot of cash being lost to 'salvage-jackers' they are in fact exploiting not a loop hole in the game, but a loop hole in the game world. Which is more than acceptable in my opinion because that is immersive. I've watched many an MMO go down the pan because it tried to suit the technical issues all too much and the RP issues all too little and ended up becoming a myriad of half implemented and overburdened features. If you're that bothered... moved to a different sector (not necessarily low sec) to get away from these people you consider 'griefers'. I've been playing a new character for about three months and not once have I experienced someone taking the salvage from my wrecks. So to summarise... from a technical perspective, you're not wrong. There is an inconsistency. From a game perspective - Theres no feasible reason for Concord to change the policy. I choose the game perspective because it favours a continuity in the game world over a continuity in the game mechanics. Thats my two cents anyway ;o)
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:54:00 - [133] Originally by: Satura I just want to be able to shoot them to pieces even if they don't loot, and only salvage. In other words, you want to grief the T1 Vigil pilot with your CNR. Tough guy. I bet you suck in bed, too. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:04:00 - [134] Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 12/09/2007 23:04:29 Originally by: Yoinx I have to agree, and disagree with a few of the posts I've read here. Wrecks belong to the last person to shoot it before it popped. No, the contents of the can within the wreck belong to the guy who shot it down. The wreck itself belongs to no one. Quote: These wrecks belong to the player, and thus the other playing is stealing the salvage that could be sold. It is impossible to have a productive discussion with someone like you who uses a private dictionary. Theft is an act with a clear definition in EVE. CONCORD grants you the right to attack someone who steals from you. I don't get flagged for claiming salvage, so it isn't theft. It can't be. I'd get a criminal flag if it was. But I don't. So it isn't. Quote: Either way the person who owns the wreck is losing potential isk, thus it's essentially stealing either way. Under EVE's definition of ownership, no one owns the wreck, no one gets a criminal flag for claiming salvage, so it cannot be stealing. I'm talking about game mechanics here, not RL morality. So don't bother going there. Quote: But I do feel people should be able to salvage them, and make the choice if they dont mind the agression countdown. We already can. And do. And will keep doing it as long as game mechanics remain as they are. That defines what is legal and moral in the EVE universe. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Rascal Peterson	Posted - 2007.09.13 01:12:00 - [135] In the real world of maritime salvage, it is he who finds gets to keep it...but out of courtesy, I always ask if they mind if I salvage their kills...
Lev Arris Riverstone Corp	Posted - 2007.09.13 11:08:00 - [136] Edited by: Lev Arris on 13/09/2007 11:08:06 Even if CCP are going to change this, miners waited _years_ for can flagging so I wouldn't hold your breath
Yoinx Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.09.13 15:20:00 - [137] Edited by: Yoinx on 13/09/2007 15:24:54 Originally by: Guillame Herschel No, the contents of the can within the wreck belong to the guy who shot it down. The wreck itself belongs to no one. Maybe you should try clicking on someone else's wreck, and checking to see if your name shows up on it. Then you can say nobody owns it. Assuming there's no name attached to the wreck. You cannot divide a wreck's cargo from the wreck itself. If it was supposed to be there would be a wreck and a can when the ship popped. With the can being yellow and the wreck being up for grabs. I say this because even a ship ,with no cargo, popped by someone else will still be yellow and show the person's name; indicating ownership. The game knows there is no cargo in that wreck. Thus the bottom arrow in the wreck symbol either being clear (no loot) or solid white (loot). If the loot can was all that belongs to the player, the ships without loot should not be yellow or show as being owned by a player. And I know people are going to say "but the arrow is indicating the loot can". When was the last time you've seen a non-glitched empty loot can? Every wreck cant be glitched to have an empty loot can in it. edit Personally, i only even salvage some missions. Assuming I'm bored and have time to kill. I'll offer the loot and salvage up in the corp chat, or local half the time. So these guys don't really bother me. My argument is purely based on things I see in the game, that indicate ownership yet contradict that ownership. When people salvage the wrecks, it will still pop out a yellow can with the loot, so you're not losing the loot anyway. My entire point is, if the wreck is going to have your name, you own it. If you own it, you own the salvage. If they dont want you to own it. They should seperate the loot into a can from the wreck when it pops, make the can yellow, and attach your name. And leave the wreck unattached, and up for grabs. Thats just my 2 cents. - I wish I had something witty to put in a signature. -
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.09.13 16:28:00 - [138] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 13/09/2007 16:29:12 It seems clear to me that the npc wreck is assigned to the player who killed it only to allow tractoring and to prevent the malicious destruction of it (and it's loot and salvage) by other players. I can only imagine the complaining that would ensue if that weren't the case. In any case, ownership of the wreck itself rather than it's contents is moot otherwise, since nobody, including the owner, can take it anywhere, nor does it have any value separate from its contents and any salvage that can be extracted from it. edit: this is in response to the post above * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Yoinx Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.09.13 19:45:00 - [139] Tsanse Kinske, I agree with you on the point of why it's assigned. My problem with it, is that it implies ownership. For instance when you attempt to tractor a wreck that isn't yours. It says something along the lines of "You cannot tractor this wreck since it does not belong to you." I would take this as the person owning the wreck. Yet, you only seem to have partial ownership since people can still salvage it. Personally, I think they should either have full ownership or none at all. But like you said, people would probably whine too much if other people could salvage AND tractor their wrecks. - I wish I had something witty to put in a signature. -
EvilSpork	Posted - 2007.09.13 23:40:00 - [140] Edited by: EvilSpork on 13/09/2007 23:43:26 Originally by: Callthetruth youer use of the word grief is wrong. Join a corp ( u havent) and get some assistance have someone come in thats friendly to u and salvage-loot youre wrecks. I know because i scan down and salvage-loot other ppls missions for a profitable living yes i do loose ships when ppl blow me up and im quite ok to have that element in the game they blow me up due to my own greed-slow reaction then so be it[/quote FFS its YOUR not YOUER or YOURE. think about it when its NOT a compound word... you are use of words... have someone salvage you are loot..??? also, your ships are not tight? you loosen them up? explain how to loose a ship? or did you mean LOSE? as in a loss? use some proper freaking gammer and word choice people!!! i dont care about using capitalization, use of apostrophes or even spelling, but use the bloody proper word!!! theyre over there with their friends...
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.09.13 23:52:00 - [141] Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 13/09/2007 23:53:28 Originally by: Yoinx Edited by: Yoinx on 13/09/2007 15:24:54 Originally by: Guillame Herschel No, the contents of the can within the wreck belong to the guy who shot it down. The wreck itself belongs to no one. Maybe you should try clicking on someone else's wreck, and checking to see if your name shows up on it. Then you can say nobody owns it. OK, fine. The SALVAGE in the wreck is owned by no one until a salvage module claims it. That the wreck is flagged with an owner is a side-effect of the fact that salvage was added after can looting, so the wrecks stands in for the can, until the wreck is gone. Happy now? Didn't think so. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.09.13 23:53:00 - [142] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 13/09/2007 23:53:56 Originally by: EvilSpork Edited by: EvilSpork on 13/09/2007 23:43:26 Originally by: Callthetruth youer use of the word grief is wrong. Join a corp ( u havent) and get some assistance have someone come in thats friendly to u and salvage-loot youre wrecks. I know because i scan down and salvage-loot other ppls missions for a profitable living yes i do loose ships when ppl blow me up and im quite ok to have that element in the game they blow me up due to my own greed-slow reaction then so be it FFS its YOUR not YOUER or YOURE. think about it when its NOT a compound word... you are use of words... have someone salvage you are loot..??? also, your ships are not tight? you loosen them up? explain how to loose a ship? or did you mean LOSE? as in a loss? use some proper freaking gammer and word choice people!!! i dont care about using capitalization, use of apostrophes or even spelling, but use the bloody proper word!!! theyre over there with their friends... Seems a bit silly to flame somebody over something that not only has nothing to do with the topic, but also was written five months ago. But hey, hope you feel better for having gotten that out. By the way, "it's" not "its". * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Sainna Minmatar Brotherhood of the Void	Posted - 2007.09.14 14:47:00 - [143] Quote: How can it be possible that people can get away with that? Now before anyone tells me go to low sec - this is NOT what its about! If someone scans me in highsec during a mission and then salvages my wrecks - so be it. BUT If I cant attack him without getting concorded this is plain stupid and has NOTHING to do with pvp-orientated. In my eyes this is only exploiting. CCP PLEASE fix ASAP I agree with the original post. Wreck thieves should be flagged. It's my mission, I blew it up, and I have every intention of looting and salvaging the wreck. I don't care about the game mechanics in this. I worked to get the salvage, not the surat thief. If wreck thieves want to salvage...get your own mission and salvage. If the thief wants to fly in and salvage it at the risk of being flagged and blown up, then he can have it if he makes it out alive. Of course I don't mind having a ship loaded with Smartbombs to thwart thieves ...even if I get Concorded the pod-kill will be worth it. At the chance of not wanting to salvage anything then let there be an option where we can allow someone salvage rights, otherwise they should be flagged. Is there a petition out for this? I'd like to sign it. Drill Instructor: "If your nature didn't lead you to trample everyone in your path with vindictive glee, you might be tolerable.
EvilSpork	Posted - 2007.09.14 15:54:00 - [144] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Seems a bit silly to flame somebody over something that not only has nothing to do with the topic, but also was written five months ago. But hey, hope you feel better for having gotten that out. By the way, "it's" not "its". hehe yeah i do feel better. like i was saying apostrophes dont bug me much. theyre = they're to me. its = it's for the most part, at least its spelled the same as for the topic, salvaging someone else's kill should be a flag in high/low sec. 0.0 is just a free for all. salvaging wrecks from another corp in high sec = agression flag. just like looting a can.
ollobrains Mission Invasion Squad	Posted - 2007.09.15 10:47:00 - [145] ive been doing this a lot tbh looting hsa more profit ( and the flag risk)
SilentSentinel	Posted - 2007.09.15 11:46:00 - [146] To the OP, Salvaging wrecks by other players is apart of the game mechanics and will cause problems with some people. Getting mad over the situation won't resolve the problem. Start thinking outside the box if you will. I'm starting to have some fun/entertainment with wreck looters. When one comes into my mission and starts going after a wreck, I just shoot the wreck he/she is going after. Eventually, the wreck looter will leave. Cheers SS
Asmodean Reborn	Posted - 2007.09.15 12:06:00 - [147] Well, I've read almost every post, but I still stick to my original thoughts. Have people flagged for salvaging/looting only if they are on the same grid. Just say I'm on l4 Blockade (really nice salvage) in high-sec. Midway through the mission someone unknown warps into the mission area. If they try to loot/salvage my wrecks they will get flagged and I can shoot them. If they want to salvage, they bookmark the spot and wait until I leave to hand in the mission. Ninja salvager can then begin doing what he likes as I'm not on the same grid - so he won't get flagged (but he'll have to quit if I return to salvage as he'll get flagged). If I want to make sure I get to salvage my own wrecks, I can stay in the mission area and ask a corpmate to join me and sit there while I hand in the mission and change ships. This way the ninja salvager can't do anything without being flagged to my corp (unless he likes the idea of risk). I've seen loads of definitions of ownership etc, but at the end of the day, I killed it so it's mine. If I hadn't killed it he'd have nothing to salvage.
Brother Lev Amarr Torps For Tots	Posted - 2007.09.15 13:22:00 - [148] Edited by: Brother Lev on 15/09/2007 13:24:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_salvage Particular parts to be quoted for emphasis: "'Salvors' are seamen and engineers who carry out salvage to vessels that are not owned by themselves." "Another reason for salvage may be to prevent pollution or damage to the marine environment. Alternatively the vessel or valuable parts of the vessel or its cargo may be recovered for its resale value, or for scrap." "When a ship or boat has been rescued or salvaged without prior agreement between the owner and salvor or an agreement is made but not for a fixed amount, this is known as pure salvage. In this case the salvor can legally claim recompense or a salvage claim." "Prior to a salvage attempt the salvor receives permission from the owner or the master to assist the vessel. If the vessel is abandoned no permission is needed." (if you leave a belt to get your salvage ship, guess what I'm considering this abandoned) -Lev Overseer Khanid Industrial Disposal Service "We Turn Your Mess into someone else's just reward"
Satura Caldari Mucho Dolor The Insomniacs	Posted - 2007.09.15 13:50:00 - [149] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: Satura I just want to be able to shoot them to pieces even if they don't loot, and only salvage. In other words, you want to grief the T1 Vigil pilot with your CNR. Tough guy. I bet you suck in bed, too. Lmao dude, how would that be griefing? He runs around me while i still kill rats, and salvages stuff. And no, it's not a cnr. Every time i see one of these guys in my mission, i dock asap and get out in a claw or stiletto. If they are blinking red when i come back, they pop, if not...i am going nuts. That's just not normal imo. Either way you put it, it kinda sucks to be the dude who runs the mission.
Slade Trillgon	Posted - 2007.10.03 15:32:00 - [150] Here is my view. Gameing aside, just because you kill someone does not automatically give you rights over there possessions. If you want soemthing then take it before you leave the area, it is not our fault you have not the cargo space to haul everything. If you loose it before you finsihed fighting the killem quicker. Kill does not equal rights to property, therefore I think that one should be able to loot and salvage any wreakage. That being said, I think a time limit could be employed to give people some time to get to the wreaks and do their buisness, but if you leave the area do not expect to find what you left when you come back. I hate flying into an area and seeing 10-15 un-looted ships or containers and/or wreakages and not one active ship. In a game where pirating and smuggling is there then you can expect thieving. That is what I think; and who says that really means siht.

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