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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Magnum Omega
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Posted - 2007.04.24 20:30:00 -
[91]
Concord WANTS the wrecks salvaged for the good of all, and that is why they do not want anyone salvaging to be killed for it.
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Vampie
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Posted - 2007.04.24 21:37:00 -
[92]
So, let me see if I understand:
1. Pirates say EVE is a PVP Game, its all about risk and reward 2. Carebears say, let me shoot at pirates that salvage my wrecks 3. Pirates say, no, its empire, you cannot shoot my pirate alt that is stealing from you
So, exactly where is the PVP part of EVE and where is the risk vs reward that pirates so much like to talk about?
My 2 cents,
Vampie
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Keliee Qijan
ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.04.25 06:53:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Keliee Qijan on 25/04/2007 06:49:38 Ok, so I read part of it but my eyes started to hurt, so if this was said, sorry, but....this said, if you kill a player the wreck belongs to the character you killed. If you take his stuff, you flash red to him, so he can kill you. As I see it, wrecks don't belong to anyone. It was an added bit to the game, and just think of when we didn't have that. It was added, and yes it makes missions more profitable, and I don't want people warping into my mission and salvaging my wrecks, but I'll still have my loot, which is just like had before the patch. Just my two cents, but I like what CCP did and don't want them to change it. CCP has enough things to change that would make the game much better before they start messing around with wrecks again.
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.25 07:01:00 -
[94]
CCP added new content with wrecks good mvoe btw
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timov
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Posted - 2007.04.25 08:41:00 -
[95]
Edited by: timov on 25/04/2007 08:39:17
Originally by: Keliee Qijan Edited by: Keliee Qijan on 25/04/2007 06:49:38 As I see it, wrecks don't belong to anyone.
ahm... wrong. Just looked it up for other reasons and found that: " Who owns what, and when ... When an NPC is killed by a player, the player who did the most damage to it gets ownership of any loot containers that may drop and of the wreck left behind by that NPC. "
(http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=143)
--edit: might be changed in last patch and not updated in the criminal flagging manual?
--- ... have fun ;) |
Lilan Kahn
Amarr The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.04.25 15:03:00 -
[96]
Originally by: timov Edited by: timov on 25/04/2007 08:39:17
Originally by: Keliee Qijan Edited by: Keliee Qijan on 25/04/2007 06:49:38 As I see it, wrecks don't belong to anyone.
ahm... wrong. Just looked it up for other reasons and found that: " Who owns what, and when ... When an NPC is killed by a player, the player who did the most damage to it gets ownership of any loot containers that may drop and of the wreck left behind by that NPC. "
(http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=143)
--edit: might be changed in last patch and not updated in the criminal flagging manual?
if this means i can frag your hairy lil ass in empire when you steal from a empire war kil sure if not **** off.
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.04.25 16:01:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Vampie So, let me see if I understand:
1. Pirates say EVE is a PVP Game, its all about risk and reward 2. Carebears say, let me shoot at pirates that salvage my wrecks 3. Pirates say, no, its empire, you cannot shoot my pirate alt that is stealing from you
So, exactly where is the PVP part of EVE and where is the risk vs reward that pirates so much like to talk about?
My 2 cents,
Vampie
Well, I doubt many pirate alts are doing it, as there are so much better ways to make money, and easier too. As for the main part of your question, you could just as well ask where the risk is in HiSec mining or NPC trading. I'll just quote what I thought about it earlier:
Quote: The key here isn't "risk" it's "effort". For their time and effort they get the salvage, for yours you get the loot, bounties, standings, mission rewards *and* the salvage if you really want it badly enough.
Risk has little to do with it in high sec missions, for them or you.
* * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.04.25 16:19:00 -
[98]
Originally by: timov Edited by: timov on 25/04/2007 08:39:17
Originally by: Keliee Qijan Edited by: Keliee Qijan on 25/04/2007 06:49:38 As I see it, wrecks don't belong to anyone.
ahm... wrong. Just looked it up for other reasons and found that: " Who owns what, and when ... When an NPC is killed by a player, the player who did the most damage to it gets ownership of any loot containers that may drop and of the wreck left behind by that NPC. "
(http://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=143)
--edit: might be changed in last patch and not updated in the criminal flagging manual?
Once again, the issue isn't ownership of the NPC wreck, it's ownership of the contents. There can be two different types of content, loot and salvage. Loot is definitely assigned to the killer of the NPC. Salvage is neutral. Note that this is documented quite clearly here: https://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=330
So you might ask what the purpose of the game even assigning ownership of a wreck is? There are a few things I can think of, but I believe the main practical reasons for it are to make it clear what wrecks are safe to loot from; and to make destruction of somebody else's wrecks--depriving them of both loot and salvage--a criminal act. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Iuris Proeliator
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.04.25 17:24:00 -
[99]
Here's the thing though.
Player A creates a wreck. The wreck has loot. PLayer B takes the loot in high sec. Player B gets a good ol' Concordoken.
Player A creates a wreck in low sec. The wreck has loot. Player B takes the loot. PLayer B gets a criminal flag, gate guns shoot at him. Player A can pop him without any backlash from Concord.
Player A creates a wreck in high sec. The wreck has loot. Player B pops the wreck. As I understand, PLayer B gets a Concordoken.
Player A creates a wreck in high sec. The wreck has loot. Player A loots the wreck. Player B pops the wreck. Player B gets the same as above.
Player A creates a wreck in low sec. The wreck has loot. PLayer B pops the wreck, gets an aggro timer.
Player A creates a wreck in low sec. THe wreck has loot, PLayer B pops the wreck AFTER PLayer A loots. Player B gets an aggro timer.
So far, we're consistent. The wreck, EVEN WITHOUT LOOT, gives aggro timers and kill rights based around the party who created the wreck, in this case Player A.
Now, Player B SALVAGING the wreck, regardless of it's loot, gets NO aggro timer.
That is an inconsistency. So, either ALL the first examples get changed, or the above. Which side seems out of balance?
As for salvage value, I can quite often salvage, value wise, as much worth as the loot. Hell, if I'm dealing with Sansha, get lucky, and I can pull in some Nanite Compounds and Melted Cap Consoles, I can make more.
That being said, I'm all for rig prices dropping, and so I honestly will agree that after a certain time, wrecks should be salvageable by anyone. But that's not what happens. The other day, 2 friends and I were doing a Lvl IV worlds collide. We had cleared the entire opening area and were working the Gurista's side... when some smacktard had scanned us down, warped to our open area, and began salvaging the wrecks left and right. We had JUST made them, maybe 20 minutes old, and he took them. Now, luckily, he got scared when he decided to take the Serpentis route and almost got his ass shot out from under him.
There is an inconsistency. And for all the "ZOMG, THAT'S THE GAME LIKE IT OR LEAVE!" crowd, I counter with this. CCP introduces a new ship. Caldari battlecruiser, the "Gankateer". It's got twice the shields of a drake, twice the missile DPS of a faction-fitted CNR, and double the drone bay of a Navy Mega and the armor tank of an Apocalypse. Should people not complain about this obvious inconsistency and inbalance? Should they take the game "the way it is"?
There's a fine line between leaving well enough alone and fixing what's inconsistent/broken. This is inconsistent/broken.
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Draconus Lofwyr
Eternal Guardians Celestial Frontier
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Posted - 2007.04.25 18:35:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Draconus Lofwyr on 25/04/2007 18:33:21 I don't know if this has been suggested, but it would require a change in the color code for the wrecks.
3 levels of wrecks
1st time interval (30 min to an hr as that can be adjusted for performance) the wreck is red to everyone but those that have rights to the wreck. only the person that has rights can loot or salvage or pop the wreck.
2nd time interval the wreck changes to yellow and the rights expand. only the person that has rights can loot or pop, but anyone can salvage.
3rd time interval the wreck changes to white and it is now free for all.
when a wreck is salvaged before it is looted, the timer continues till it turns white for everyone.
This will accomplish 2 things, it gives the owner time to salvage and loot in plexes without worry of being snarfed, but also encourages the wrecks to be looted and salvaged before they clutter the areas too much causing outrageous lag.
This is just my 2 ISK, I may be totally flamed, but this is what i would consider fair to all.
D
P.S. the color code can be changed to yellow for the first, green for the second, and white for the third to eliminate confusion with a rat.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.04.25 18:46:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Iuris Proeliator
There is an inconsistency. And for all the "ZOMG, THAT'S THE GAME LIKE IT OR LEAVE!" crowd, I counter with this. CCP introduces a new ship. Caldari battlecruiser, the "Gankateer". It's got twice the shields of a drake, twice the missile DPS of a faction-fitted CNR, and double the drone bay of a Navy Mega and the armor tank of an Apocalypse. Should people not complain about this obvious inconsistency and inbalance? Should they take the game "the way it is"?
There's a fine line between leaving well enough alone and fixing what's inconsistent/broken. This is inconsistent/broken.
It only is inconsistent if you think of the contents of the wreck as being one category of items that should have one set of rules, when it's actually two. It's comparable to being bothered that different rules apply to turrets and missiles, since they're all weapons.
Balance is a more interesting question. I don't see an imbalance, personally (See my previous quotes for why.) but then again, I have yet to see any arguments in that direction. Only variations on "It's mine." * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.04.25 18:52:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Draconus Lofwyr Edited by: Draconus Lofwyr on 25/04/2007 18:33:21 I don't know if this has been suggested, but it would require a change in the color code for the wrecks.
3 levels of wrecks
1st time interval (30 min to an hr as that can be adjusted for performance) the wreck is red to everyone but those that have rights to the wreck. only the person that has rights can loot or salvage or pop the wreck.
2nd time interval the wreck changes to yellow and the rights expand. only the person that has rights can loot or pop, but anyone can salvage.
3rd time interval the wreck changes to white and it is now free for all.
when a wreck is salvaged before it is looted, the timer continues till it turns white for everyone.
This will accomplish 2 things, it gives the owner time to salvage and loot in plexes without worry of being snarfed, but also encourages the wrecks to be looted and salvaged before they clutter the areas too much causing outrageous lag.
This is just my 2 ISK, I may be totally flamed, but this is what i would consider fair to all.
D
P.S. the color code can be changed to yellow for the first, green for the second, and white for the third to eliminate confusion with a rat.
They're nice ideas in theory, but I'd be extremely skeptical that adding more timers and yet more lifespan to every wreck created in the game is such a good thing. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.25 19:33:00 -
[103]
and more lag welcome to eve wow editiion
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Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2007.04.25 22:58:00 -
[104]
Speaking as someone who has been an aggressive salvager since the days when missioners left huge constellations of loot cans around the stargates, I like the existing mechanic. But it doesn't make a huge difference.
I love to salvage wrecks, and I'll cheerfully scan down missioners to do it. There's quite a bit of risk involved, but it's one of the few things in secure space that's worth probing for.
Ask first? Why? I'm not a pirate, Jim, I'm a salvager, but do we expect pirates to ask for permission before pirating? No? Then why would you expect a salvager to ask permission before salvaging?
I was perfectly happy when I had to take the loot in order to salvage the wrecks, and since I generally still take the loot, the change hasn't made a lot of difference to me. It just gives me a bit more flexibility about when to loot and salvage. ------------------ Ironfleet.com Proposal: Automated Ore Return Vehicles |
Little Fistter
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Posted - 2007.04.25 23:18:00 -
[105]
I am of the opinion that:
1. LOOT belongs to the guy who killed the rat or player that drops it.
2. SALVAGE is "First Come, First Served."
Frankly, I think Salvage should include some of the minerals that went into that ship, but that's another story.
I hope the Dev's leave this one alone. I am SO tired of botched solutions for slight problems (like the decision to nerf all Nanofibres rather than just limit their use on the few ships that had a problem!) |
Zizzlak
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Posted - 2007.05.02 13:35:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Zizzlak on 02/05/2007 13:33:20
Originally by: Little Fistter I am of the opinion that:
1. LOOT belongs to the guy who killed the rat or player that drops it.
2. SALVAGE is "First Come, First Served."
Frankly, I think Salvage should include some of the minerals that went into that ship, but that's another story.
I hope the Dev's leave this one alone. I am SO tired of botched solutions for slight problems (like the decision to nerf all Nanofibres rather than just limit their use on the few ships that had a problem!)
I read this whole thread and I agree with a lot of the posts for leaving it as is. If I am doing a mission and don't salvage the wrecks in a timely manner, too bad for me. It is not impossible to fit a tractor and salvager to do that while I am killing the NPC's of my mission. Often times that's exactly what I do in either my Apoc or Harbinger. I agree 100% that someone coming in to salvage my wrecks WHILE I am doing the mission would **** me off, but so does getting ganked in a gate camp when I am trying to pick up something I just bought that happens to be in 0.4. It's part of the game. Deal or leave.
Everything I have read so far indicates that it's working as intended.
Oh, and btw, this is not a alt., I just started the game in January and this is my main. Since I salvage quite regularly I thought I would add my 2 isk
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OneSock
PLuSQuAMPERFEkT iNc
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Posted - 2007.05.02 14:43:00 -
[107]
I'm in the leave it as it is camp (sort of) even though I have had someone ninja salvage my wrecks.
I can't see messing with timers really helping much because some Lv4 missions take hours already, so it's not worth creating more lag etc.
Couple of suggestions.
1. Make deadspace wrecks ownership of mission runner and make belt rats open to anyone.
2. Leave it as it is but make it harder to scan out drone users.
The guys who have dropped in on my missions to take my salvage all found me via my drones.
CCP made it more difficult to scan out ships in deadspace, but "forgot" about how easy it was to find drones.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.02 16:13:00 -
[108]
Originally by: OneSock
CCP made it more difficult to scan out ships in deadspace, but "forgot" about how easy it was to find drones.
Actually its most likely because of the 5x sig radius increase when they use their MWDs. It gives them the same signature of a small BB, plus there are several of them.
Funny thing is I have never actually scanned out a mission because of drones. Luck I guess <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2
PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base |
justcheckingthemarket
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Posted - 2007.05.02 20:24:00 -
[109]
i've read through exactly the same discussion on another board recently, and i can't resist telling you all what i think:
i just love the idea of CCP making it possible to salvage other peoples wrecks without being flaged!! not that i've done it my self (got more profitable things to do ^^) but it gives mission running carebears something to whine about (since the PA issue is mor or the less fixed and whining about npc EW is boring) and honestly this and farming isk is all this people seem to enjoy.
but i also love the fact that your able to rep npc's without getting flaged!!!
to all of you who didn't know i'll give a short how to: scan out someone thats in a mission, wait for him to get a ******* lot of npc's to aggro him, rep the npc hes shooting at, lough and have fun, no risk at all and very amousing convo's/lokal conversations guaranteed!!! an and afterwards go and salvage his ship and all npc's he's killed ;-)
yes i'm a a very nasty person, but hey there's noting i enjoy more then read whine threds (like this one) form carebears, please give me more of that!!!
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.02 21:45:00 -
[110]
Originally by: justcheckingthemarket
to all of you who didn't know i'll give a short how to: scan out someone thats in a mission, wait for him to get a ******* lot of npc's to aggro him, rep the npc hes shooting at, lough and have fun, no risk at all and very amousing convo's/lokal conversations guaranteed!!! an and afterwards go and salvage his ship and all npc's he's killed ;-)
yes i'm a a very nasty person, but hey there's noting i enjoy more then read whine threds (like this one) form carebears, please give me more of that!!!
Getting fixed.
When implemented if you remote repair a NPC the PC that has shoot rights on it will get shoot rights on you. There was a mention in a Dev post a short while ago.... <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2
PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base |
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.05.02 22:36:00 -
[111]
Sometimes it's so much better just to let people learn things for themselves. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.05.04 09:03:00 -
[112]
have a corp mate sitting at station ready to blow em up when they warp back to base common think smarter guys ( or take a corp mate cloaked into youre mission he can just uncloak use a nano ship) when the guy flashes red from looting blow him ( me up) tho ive had one suicde attack in 3 weeks, hats off to the dude for killing my expensive cov ops ship while loosing his domi)
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Wolf Simon
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Posted - 2007.05.04 10:12:00 -
[113]
Everyone who thinks that, werck is neutral, try to destroy one, whitch belongs to someone else in sec space... Salvaging should have the same restrictions like looting.
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ZentorUk
Dark Marauders
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Posted - 2007.06.21 10:10:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Wolf Simon Everyone who thinks that, werck is neutral, try to destroy one, whitch belongs to someone else in sec space... Salvaging should have the same restrictions like looting.
AGREE!
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Artemis Dragmire
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Posted - 2007.06.21 10:51:00 -
[115]
I have no problem if CCP wants to make it possible for people to salvage my wrecks... BUT if I see someone salvaging my stuff I want the rights to shoot him in empire space.
It only makes sense, as that conversation posted earlier proves. As it is right now people can harass other players without any fear of repurcussion.
I'll second the question by another poster:
If eve is a PVP game (which it is) why can't I defend stuff that I have rightfully 'killed'?
I'm all for lowsec ratting, but if I'm running missions in empire space I would expect that if someone is ballsy enough to steal the rig parts from my wrecks that I would be able to shoot them down.
I think an ability to lay 'claim' to wrecks for say... 30 minutes (or longer if you want to make it a trainable skill) would be perfect. Make it like the open seas... if you find a wrecked ship and there is nobody staking a claim... you can put down your 'flag' so to speak and then it's yours for X amount of time.
The 'ninjas' can still take wrecks if people are too lazy to claim them.. but if they're claimed then the person that claimed them should get aggro on the person that salvaged. I would see that as only fair.
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Bambi
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Posted - 2007.06.21 11:15:00 -
[116]
Toys back in the pram
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Malitest
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Posted - 2007.06.21 16:35:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Callthetruth ill piont to wow where theres no risk just a boring NPC grind
And just how are you at risk slavaging other peoples wrecks in high sec os you risk lover? WoW anyone? Might be you that should go play it as you seem to like the low risk for yourself part.
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Ivorwen
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Posted - 2007.06.21 16:49:00 -
[118]
Relatively new to this game, I do salvage any wrecks lying around it helps keep space tidy . Salvage is salvage, Loot is loot the current system is sensible. I find loads of unlooted wrecks lying around mining barges these are hardly ever looted by the mining barge owner let alone salvaged. If, however, the player that produced the wreck is around just ask their permission to salvage if they say its ok, no problem, if they say no, then the salvager has a choice
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Brazero
Amarr Noble House
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Posted - 2007.06.21 16:56:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Marquis Dean
Originally by: Belmarduk The wreck is MINE - I killed the ship
The wreck is not yours. You need to accept that. CCP isn't going to change it.
How the hell do you know this, are you just another CCP alt
Quote: <tuxford> Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums.
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aaron 619
Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.21 17:03:00 -
[120]
OK, I have taken the time to read over most of the post in this thread and both side have some vary good points.
That said, I feel that wrecks should be able to be salvaged by any one with out fear of agro timer.
my points are as follow
-salvaging is more like mining then any thing else. The wreck is the roid. -most wrecks that get left behind, stay there until some one else takes them or they pop. (what a wast) -why if the wreck was just left there should I have to fear taking it. (bait trap,yarrrr)
Sell your minerals on the market! Don't settle for what others WANT to pay you! Miners are the ones that control Sale price! |
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