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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2007.04.18 16:32:00 -
[1]
We've had some good Blogs recently, but as we all know the most interesting ones are about what will come to EVE, and the drought is now ove(u)r. Oveur brings up what happened, and will happen, in Revelations 1.4.X, quickly skips ahead to the whole "fix bugs first, add content later" issue and then moves on to Revelations 2.0.
We are going to create a lag thread, to identify where you experience lag and what to do about it, and our Dev Blog ends on that note. Please head over and read Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom - and lag?
But fear not, we are also taking this opportunity to announce the new Dev Chats, which you can read more about in this news item. But to make it simple, I will put a copy of the news item in this post as well:
HEAR YE! HEAR YE! TIME FOR A NEW KIND OF DEV BLOGS, THE DEV CHAT
In the early part of the twentieth century, Hollywood brought sound to the motion pictures, creating the "talkies". Now, in the beginning of the twentyfirst century, CCP brings sound to the Dev Blogs, creating the "Dev Chat"!
Please note that this new form of Dev Blogs will only add to our current ways of communicating such as the "Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom - and lag?" Dev Blog by Oveur, published today, it will not replace Dev Blogs or forum posts.
So, what is this new Dev Chat then?
Oveur and Hammerhead will be talking about the Revelations 2 ramp up and then answer questions from the audience. The event will start Thursday 19 April at 20:00 GMT and take about an hour. This will be a regular occurrence over the next weeks.
Ok, but how do I participate in the Dev Chat?
The following steps must be taken to participate in the Dev Chat:
- You must have EVE Voice enabled, EVE Voice can be activated here.
- The name of the channel to join is 'Dev Chat' û users must right click and select 'join audio' to be able to hear.
- Dev Chat channel has a maximum capacity of 400 people, and if you can¦t join itæs because the channel is full.
- You can text questions to a moderator who will track them and send them to Oveur and Hammerhead so they can answer after they¦ve finished their comments.
- A GM will be present in the channel to remind everyone that they're muted and that they can text questions to the moderator.
What do I do if I miss this Dev Chat?
The Dev Chats will be recorded and made available later.
Where can I post what I think about this Dev Chat?
Since it's announced in a Dev Blog today, among other things, we ask that you discuss it in the Dev Blog announcement thread here (Which is of course this thread).
Wrangler
Assistant Community Manager
EVE Online
Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base
Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ |
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Isotobe
Caldari
Mercenaries of Andosia
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.18 16:43:00 -
[2]
1st 
Very nice blog, thanks for the information.
Regards,
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KaptnSparrow
Caldari
TARDZ
Gods of Night and Day
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Posted - 2007.04.18 16:50:00 -
[3]
2nd finally lag gets some attentio...
...eve's worst pirate...
...if I missed killmails of the past, please update the killboard! |
Chaimera
Grumpy Old Farts
Gruntfuttocks
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:04:00 -
[4]
Thank you as always for the information. It is much appreciated.
Beware of the killer grumpies! |
Saskia Elko
Independant Union of Rangers
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:05:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Saskia Elko on 18/04/2007 17:01:34
So how many new customers to eve voice will it take before ccp doesn't have the time to continue with the dev chats?
Edit: I still won't be buying it
*snip* -please do not use that. -Kaemonn
 Originally by: Dianabolic
That's what I'm saying, yes. If you fly with people that make you look bad, guess what? You look bad.
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iudex
Caldari
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:06:00 -
[6]
Quote:
Anxiety for me is a good thing. It's a complex feeling and you can have it for positive and negative reasons, but in the end, it's one of my main driving forces.
Remember what Yoda said about anxiety 
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Emo Jelli
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:09:00 -
[7]
Nice ploy to get more of us to sign up for EVE Voice 
Emo JelliÖ¡¡ - Foodstuff for the Emotionally Unstable |
Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:20:00 -
[8]
IRC > Eve Voice. oh well.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainfrane] |
Bein Glorious
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:21:00 -
[9]
Remember the titans. |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:25:00 -
[10]
Hope it works.
...
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Kaiso Ohad
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:31:00 -
[11]
I like Oveur blogs and I like Dev Chat.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:34:00 -
[12]
I could have been first, but I actually read the blog before I replied. Im getting old, arent I... 
Im a big fan of the game, but I still think you are focusing on the wrong things. Its like you are attempting to fix the worst lag situations by hand instead of realizing that maybe its time for a completely new client. Then again, I dont really know what the best course of action is since you dont write any blogs about what actually makes the game so slow. The game has been becoming slower and slower in the last year, despite an amazing amount of effort from you guys with new hardware, Need for Speed-thingie, instant bookmark elimination etc. I know that a year ago I could run a mission with no problems on my old laptop. These days I have to turn off effects, sounds etc just to run the same game on my pretty new computer with a 6800GT graphics card.
I know you have a new vista client with new graphics coming, but if you just bolt new graphics on this lagmonster, you havent really solved the main problem. The game is slow and you need to fix it by doing something drastic, like writing completely new network code or making the client more asynchronous to make it appear faster. I have no idea, you guys should know what to do to fix things. But I feel its not really being done. It feels like you are plugging holes instead of buying a new boat.
Looking forward to the Vista client and I really hope it makes things smooth again.
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune |
Jak'ai
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:38:00 -
[13]
Can't say I'm wild about the Dev Chat thing as I happen to be one of those "other side of the planet"-type people who will be working during the announced time period.
Will these Dev Chat times be varied to cover other timezones? I mean - I could get away with having something up on IRC / messenger / etc, but for some reason my boss doesn't seem inclined to upgrade my workstation to something that will run EVE.  
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Templer Relleg
Exit 13
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:40:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Templer Relleg on 18/04/2007 17:37:40
Dev chats over eve voice = Bad.. Mkay?
And just the limitation with 400 players is stupid i think.
"I wanted to ask this question, and i just paid xú to get eve voice just to get onto the dev chat.. And the room was full!"
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Babbette
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:41:00 -
[15]
Nothing about any drone "improvements". That makes me sad.
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Gone'Postal
Minmatar
LuthorCorp Combat Division
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:43:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Emo Jelli
Nice ploy to get more of us to sign up for EVE Voice
Ah comeon thats not fair, they have to find a use for it somewhere.
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Anyone comparing CCP to a glacier is really not being fair to the glacier.
Tripping The Rift Since 2005 |
Standard Deviation
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:45:00 -
[17]
Real great dev blog.
You need to fix your super capitals.
Remote DD should go.
Someway to hold ships in place, or to make them risk the ship to fire off a dd.
Maybe no dd and cloak on at the same time.
Something done about cap issues on these things. Low cap usage on DD, insane recharge rates with expensive fittings.
Moms are solo pwnmobiles in low sec. I thought you were never going to introduce solo pwnmobiles.
Oh and fix the Minnie carrier, its been a year.
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:46:00 -
[18]
Make sure you check The beaten-with-the-ugly-stick-lag-monster thread to help us defeat lag!
Wrangler
Assistant Community Manager
EVE Online
Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base
Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ |
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Lord Zuku
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:47:00 -
[19]
CCP is trying to the solve lag problem by scaling up the cluster (upgrading servers). This is expensive and you eventually reach the point where you can no longer scale fast enough (fleet battles). What CCP needs to do is scale out. They need to enable nodes to run on several computers in parallel like on any proper cluster. After the code has been modified to run in parallel, we could have 1000 vs 1000 battles without any server-side lag. Client on the other hand...
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Vincent S
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:53:00 -
[20]
I'd really appreciate a comment from the devs on the titan situation. Do you acknowledge that their design sucks all the fun out of fleet warfare? Do you realize that you've destroyed all fun for hundreds, if not thousands of people, who are in smaller alliances and can never hope to get a titan, because we'd get steamrolled the second a cap ship assembly array was put up? Do you think it's balanced when a single alliance has three or four titans?
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2007.04.18 17:59:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 18/04/2007 17:37:05
I could have been first, but I actually read the blog before I replied. Im getting old, arent I...
Im a big fan of the game, but I still think you are focusing on the wrong things. Its like you are attempting to fix the worst lag situations by hand instead of realizing that maybe its time for a completely new client. Then again, I dont really know what the best course of action is since you dont write any blogs about what actually makes the game so slow. The game has been becoming slower and slower in the last year, despite an amazing amount of effort from you guys with new hardware, Need for Speed-thingie, instant bookmark elimination etc. I know that a year ago I could run a mission with no problems on my old laptop. These days I have to turn off effects, sounds etc just to run the same game on my pretty new computer with a 6800GT graphics card. Im not talking about the server being slow here. The client is. Im lucky to get above 20 fps. The client is rendering squares and lines since im zoomed out to the max. Why the heck is it so slow?
I know you have a new vista client with new graphics coming, but if you just bolt new graphics on this lagmonster, you havent really solved the main problem. The game is slow and you need to fix it by doing something drastic, like writing completely new network code or making the client more asynchronous to make it appear faster. I have no idea, you guys should know what to do to fix things. But I feel its not really being done. It feels like you are plugging holes instead of buying a new boat.
Looking forward to the Vista client and I really hope it makes things smooth again.
We're both getting old Jim 
We do actually have a new network layer (wich has a spiffy but ominous name, "Slipstream"). You already know about the updated graphics engine in addition to the Vista engine coming out and without giving you a firm date, we want it out before end-of-year, which is Kali 3 territory, which includes all the renovated models if you want to use them.
This also applies for our new sound engine which has already started, it should provide more support and perform better. This is all part of us splitting the company into more core technology, which only focus on that and into the more higher-layer game logic layer.
Senior Producer
EVE Online
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jak'ai
Edited by: Jak''ai on 18/04/2007 17:53:36
Can't say I'm wild about the Dev Chat thing as I happen to be one of those "other side of the planet"-type people who will be working during the announced time period.
Will these Dev Chat times be varied to cover other timezones? I mean - I could get away with having something up on IRC / messenger / etc, but for some reason my boss doesn't seem inclined to upgrade my workstation to something that will run EVE.
Post Blog-read edit
I have to echo Jim McG when I ask "where does the lag come from anyway?". I remember there was a dev blog way back where that addressed sources of lag, but I can't for the life of me figure out where it could be coming from in reality. The servers seem plenty fast enough (at least I don't see many de-synch events that I'd normally blame on the server), generally speaking the network doesn't seem a problem, so what is it client-side that lags things out?
The models are fairly simple, there isn't very much in the way of individual variation that needs to be rendered (at least compared to a standard avatar-based MMO), and the "landscape" is as simple as it gets. Colour me confused.
That aside - I've always wondered - is it technologically impossible to have a client communicate back to the server when recieving and rendering data? Sort of like the client saying "woah woah woah - I've got enough to deal with here" and the server responding with streaming a smaller "vital set" data load that would at least allow the player to continue playing in real-time rather than slide-showing while the client recieves all the information at once.
We're simply trying this voice chat out. I assume there will be a downloadable version later on (don't shoot me if I'm wrong) and I'll ask if that can happen. If it works well, we can have these more often in more timezones, I'm happy taking an early morning to accomodate other timezones.
Regarding LODing in the client, this will be handled better in the updated graphics engine but as you point out, that's nothing to do with the data stream. The data stream has also been worked on, and it's still sending mostly relevant data already (just check bandwidth usage of EVE, it's not that high).
Server lag is very visible on the client though and even though Jim points out the client isn't the sexy performing beast it was in the old days, this has more to do with the servers not being able to send out to 500 clients all the state updates of all the other 499 clients, Starbases etc. around you. This can then build up, meaning your client is actually waiting for very relevant data simply waiting in a holding pattern (you can't predict what button one of those 499 other players do). This can also happen on a solar system level and on node level, you don't have to be in a fleet battle. Just visit Saila.
Senior Producer
EVE Online
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Briana Flametop
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:06:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Standard Deviation
Real great dev blog.
You need to fix your super capitals.
Remote DD should go.
Someway to hold ships in place, or to make them risk the ship to fire off a dd.
Maybe no dd and cloak on at the same time.
Something done about cap issues on these things. Low cap usage on DD, insane recharge rates with expensive fittings.
Moms are solo pwnmobiles in low sec. I thought you were never going to introduce solo pwnmobiles.
Oh and fix the Minnie carrier, its been a year.
A succinct and accurate summary - Devs, please read this.  |
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:08:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Lord Zuku
CCP is trying to the solve lag problem by scaling up the cluster (upgrading servers). This is expensive and you eventually reach the point where you can no longer scale fast enough (fleet battles). What CCP needs to do is scale out. They need to enable nodes to run on several computers in parallel like on any proper cluster. After the code has been modified to run in parallel, we could have 1000 vs 1000 battles without any server-side lag. Client on the other hand...
This is already happening on the cluster. A node hosts multiple services from various solar systems. The problem is that the finest grain which is problematic is the solar system itself, meaning a solar system can't scale out over multiple nodes. We have a couple of initiatives there, such as a lot of what's happening in Revelations 2 on the game design level simply encouraging people to do something else than blob, we have some lower level Python initiatives and there is some interesting trends coming in hardware too which we can utilize.
Senior Producer
EVE Online
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:09:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Templer Relleg
Edited by: Templer Relleg on 18/04/2007 17:37:40
Dev chats over eve voice = Bad.. Mkay?
And just the limitation with 400 players is stupid i think.
"I wanted to ask this question, and i just paid xú to get eve voice just to get onto the dev chat.. And the room was full!"
EVE Voice is free right now.
Senior Producer
EVE Online
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:10:00 -
[26]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
We're both getting old Jim
We do actually have a new network layer (wich has a spiffy but ominous name, "Slipstream"). You already know about the updated graphics engine in addition to the Vista engine coming out and without giving you a firm date, we want it out before end-of-year, which is Kali 3 territory, which includes all the renovated models if you want to use them.
This also applies for our new sound engine which has already started, it should provide more support and perform better. This is all part of us splitting the company into more core technology, which only focus on that and into the more higher-layer game logic layer.
Ah, you DO have a new network layer! Thats great news tbh, I didnt know that... and im very glad to hear it. I think its exacly what the game needs. Now I shall repeat these great news to the masses in the phorumz, when needed. :)
These days I do have a job so I dont post a billion times a day anymore, but im around, lurking.... :)
See you around the forums!
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune |
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:11:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Babbette
Nothing about any drone "improvements". That makes me sad.
There are drone fixes and optimizations which are covered in general with "more focus on fixes and optimizations", I just covered the highligts in this blog. There are around 600 of such waiting for programmer love
Senior Producer
EVE Online
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:14:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Standard Deviation
Real great dev blog.
You need to fix your super capitals.
Remote DD should go.
Someway to hold ships in place, or to make them risk the ship to fire off a dd.
Maybe no dd and cloak on at the same time.
Something done about cap issues on these things. Low cap usage on DD, insane recharge rates with expensive fittings.
Moms are solo pwnmobiles in low sec. I thought you were never going to introduce solo pwnmobiles.
Oh and fix the Minnie carrier, its been a year.
We're monitoring all the larger capital ships now that they are seeing far more usage. There is a lot happening in Starbases and Outpost which change the playing field considerably. On low sec specifically and moms, is it the ability to designate the fighters or are you actually seeing them in combat up close and personal?
Senior Producer
EVE Online
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Templer Relleg
Exit 13
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:14:00 -
[29]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: Templer Relleg
Edited by: Templer Relleg on 18/04/2007 17:37:40
Dev chats over eve voice = Bad.. Mkay?
And just the limitation with 400 players is stupid i think.
"I wanted to ask this question, and i just paid xú to get eve voice just to get onto the dev chat.. And the room was full!"
EVE Voice is free right now.
Really? Ill be there then and ask alot of questions which you forgot in this post!
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General Xerxes
Delta Omega Iota Inc.
Breidablik
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Posted - 2007.04.18 18:43:00 -
[30]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: Lord Zuku
CCP is trying to the solve lag problem by scaling up the cluster (upgrading servers). This is expensive and you eventually reach the point where you can no longer scale fast enough (fleet battles). What CCP needs to do is scale out. They need to enable nodes to run on several computers in parallel like on any proper cluster. After the code has been modified to run in parallel, we could have 1000 vs 1000 battles without any server-side lag. Client on the other hand...
This is already happening on the cluster. A node hosts multiple services from various solar systems. The problem is that the finest grain which is problematic is the solar system itself, meaning a solar system can't scale out over multiple nodes. We have a couple of initiatives there, such as a lot of what's happening in Revelations 2 on the game design level simply encouraging people to do something else than blob, we have some lower level Python initiatives and there is some interesting trends coming in hardware too which we can utilize.
I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but why can't a solar system be spread across mutiple CPU cores? Is it actually impossible or is it just that the way EVE is built means it can't work that way? Surely making this possible would solve must of the server side problems encountered in huge fleet battles and places like Jita...
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