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A less biased view on the new triggers and a request.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 8 post(s)
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.26 12:09:00 - [1] I've done Gurista Extravaganza again and this time i could notice the exact impact the new trigger mechanisms had on my gameplay. Currently , the trigger for spawning a new wave of ships in every room is aggressive action versus a Kyoukan, it's enough to take a potshot at it. All in all it's nice and dandy that i can fight 5-10 ships at the time without direct risk of mass agro, but Kyoukan's have this bad habit of webbing and scrambling your ship. Since I don't do missions in low sec i don't mind being scrambled but because i'm webbed i can no longer loot and salvage the wrecks, mainly because my speed often plummets to 85 or 25 m/s. This negatively impacted my gameplay. I can no longer dictate the range, loot or salvage unless i purposely kill all the trigger ships so my faction afterburner and salvager became useless... Just switch to an AFK raven and a salvage ship, right ? Well no. In conclusion, A good way to make these changes 'fun' for me would be to move the triggers from the interceptors to the cruisers or battlecruisers, moreover make the trigger ship be random, not knowing what cruiser / battlecruiser spawns the next wave could still give the trigger system a degree of uncertainty. Also , changing the moment the trigger is activated from -the first aggressive action- to -when down to 50% shields- would allow us to actually use our drones again. snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!

Zrakor	Posted - 2007.04.26 12:16:00 - [2] Edited by: Zrakor on 26/04/2007 12:17:08 The Kyoukans and Webifiers in that mission don't scramble actually, they only web you. This mission may be changed in the next patch to using an exploding trigger rather than attacked trigger, which would alter the tactics needed to get through it somewhat. I do see some people's gripe with the mission, which is that it's already very long (many stages) and having it very tricky at the same time makes it too tedious for a basic(grind) mission. That will be looked into for the next patch.

Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.26 12:19:00 - [3] Edited by: Deus Ex''Machina on 26/04/2007 12:27:12 Originally by: Zrakor The Kyoukans and Webifiers in that mission don't scramble actually, they only web you. I rarely warp out of missions so i can't really tell , my bad. Originally by: Zrakor I do see some people's gripe with the mission, which is that it's already very long (many stages) and having it very tricky at the same time makes it too tedious for a basic(grind) mission. Firstly, i don't really mind the mission being long and/or tricky. But there are a few ways to fix this actually. One would be to find a way to stop respawning the mission rats after downtime, maybe mark a stage a completed when it's been cleared ? This would have some positive side effects against mission farming / chaining. snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return	Posted - 2007.04.26 12:27:00 - [4] Originally by: Zrakor Edited by: Zrakor on 26/04/2007 12:17:08 The Kyoukans and Webifiers in that mission don't scramble actually, they only web you. This mission may be changed in the next patch to using an exploding trigger rather than attacked trigger, which would alter the tactics needed to get through it somewhat. I do see some people's gripe with the mission, which is that it's already very long (many stages) and having it very tricky at the same time makes it too tedious for a basic(grind) mission. That will be looked into for the next patch. Attacked triggers are very, very annoying for drone users. Wheither you use drones as main weapon or just as backup, they are simply too fast to shoot at a random target once their current target is dead no matter how well you micromanage them. And micromanaging your drones isn't my favorite part of the game.
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.04.26 12:36:00 - [5] Agreed on the drones, I think it'd be far more practical to have them automatically return to orbit once they've destroyed their target.
FT Diomedes	Posted - 2007.04.26 12:50:00 - [6] Originally by: Deus Ex'Machina A good way to make these changes 'fun' for me would be to move the triggers from the interceptors to the cruisers or battlecruisers, moreover make the trigger ship be random, not knowing what cruiser / battlecruiser spawns the next wave could still give the trigger system a degree of uncertainty. Also , changing the moment the trigger is activated from -the first aggressive action- to -when down to 50% shields- would allow us to actually use our drones again. Both very good changes. I really like the idea of not knowing which enemy ship will be the one to trigger reinforcements. It may make the missions harder, but it's more realistic. As a Gallente, I also like the idea of something that makes drones a bit easier to use (I'd hate to see everyone in my corp flying Caldari ships because missiles are easier to use).
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.04.26 14:39:00 - [7] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 26/04/2007 14:39:50 Originally by: Zrakor Edited by: Zrakor on 26/04/2007 12:17:08 The Kyoukans and Webifiers in that mission don't scramble actually, they only web you. This mission may be changed in the next patch to using an exploding trigger rather than attacked trigger, which would alter the tactics needed to get through it somewhat. I do see some people's gripe with the mission, which is that it's already very long (many stages) and having it very tricky at the same time makes it too tedious for a basic(grind) mission. That will be looked into for the next patch. Even if they only web you, do you realize that it completely nerfs the ability to do that mission for any ship that has to move (i.e. any gunboat)? You either kill the triggers, can move again but face what would be stage aggro before, or you don't kill the triggers and end up trying to hit Battleships orbiting you at 40km with blasters, or cruisers orbiting you at 5km with artillery... Please for the love of god DO some of your missions before you change them. And do them in other ships than a permatanked cruise Raven too. Or better yet hire a professional mission runner to help you in balancing the PvE department :P The triggers themselves are a fine idea (except for the drone issue). Varying triggers on non-EW capable ships is a great idea to spice things up. Making triggers only fire when the ship loses its shield/armor rather than as soon as it is shot at is only logical. But making any of the EW ships the trigger is a horrible idea and should be remedied asap. As for the drone issue, just have newly arrived ships idle for a minute before they start targetting so people at least have enough time to pull in their drones. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.26 14:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Or better yet hire a professional mission runner to help you in balancing the PvE department :P I might go for such a job snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
OneSock PLuSQuAMPERFEkT iNc	Posted - 2007.04.26 15:09:00 - [9] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Please for the love of god DO some of your missions before you change them. And do them in other ships than a permatanked cruise Raven too. Or better yet hire a professional mission runner to help you in balancing the PvE department :P /signed in triplicate To add my 2p I think the main problem is that triggering on frigates in this way makes it more or less impossible to kill scrambling frigates. You drop your T2 small drones to take them out but as soon as they pop the drones will agro and attack the other frigs very quickly. Change the trigger to "on ship destruction" would be better for sure. I'd also avoid webber frigates as this really nerfs ability to get to range. If you want to inject a bit of realism then rather than a single trigger rat, then maybe trigger after a certain number of BS/BCs have been taken out ? This would be more realistic. Currently: Trigger ship captain: "Ho well, all my friends are now dead and I'm going down, better call a new wave of fodder". More realistic: Commander ship: "We have lost 60% of our force, we are losing, better call reinforcements."

Zrakor	Posted - 2007.04.26 15:44:00 - [10] Edited by: Zrakor on 26/04/2007 15:40:52 Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 26/04/2007 14:39:50 Originally by: Zrakor Edited by: Zrakor on 26/04/2007 12:17:08 The Kyoukans and Webifiers in that mission don't scramble actually, they only web you. This mission may be changed in the next patch to using an exploding trigger rather than attacked trigger, which would alter the tactics needed to get through it somewhat. I do see some people's gripe with the mission, which is that it's already very long (many stages) and having it very tricky at the same time makes it too tedious for a basic(grind) mission. That will be looked into for the next patch. Even if they only web you, do you realize that it completely nerfs the ability to do that mission for any ship that has to move (i.e. any gunboat)? You either kill the triggers, can move again but face what would be stage aggro before, or you don't kill the triggers and end up trying to hit Battleships orbiting you at 40km with blasters, or cruisers orbiting you at 5km with artillery... Please for the love of god DO some of your missions before you change them. And do them in other ships than a permatanked cruise Raven too. Or better yet hire a professional mission runner to help you in balancing the PvE department :P The triggers themselves are a fine idea (except for the drone issue). Varying triggers on non-EW capable ships is a great idea to spice things up. Making triggers only fire when the ship loses its shield/armor rather than as soon as it is shot at is only logical. But making any of the EW ships the trigger is a horrible idea and should be remedied asap. As for the drone issue, just have newly arrived ships idle for a minute before they start targetting so people at least have enough time to pull in their drones. Many of us in the content department actually do missions on Tranquility as players, but I don't have a problem with triggers on webifiers because I either do missions in a group (which makes it no problem) or I change my setup to fit the mission. Using short range weapons simply is not ideal in some missions, while in others I prefer using that type of setup.

Hephaesteus Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.26 15:49:00 - [11] Originally by: Zrakor This mission may be changed in the next patch to using an exploding trigger rather than attacked trigger Does that mean if you use rails it wont activate. I soloed Guri Ex after the patch. It did take a little longer to do, but in the main that was because I was being cautious because of patch deployment. In reality it does not make a whole lot of difference in the time it takes to complete, for me anyway. Only difference I can see is now I cannot snipe the frigs before they get close, but drones make short work of them when the main spawn has been destroyed and you are ready for the next lot. All in all I like the new triggers.
Marquis Dean Energy. Insurgency	Posted - 2007.04.26 15:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Zrakor Many of us in the content department actually do missions on Tranquility as players, but I don't have a problem with triggers on webifiers because I either do missions in a group (which makes it no problem) or I change my setup to fit the mission. Using short range weapons simply is not ideal in some missions, while in others I prefer using that type of setup. That's still not fair on certain players. People who started off as Caldari and are skilled for Ravens are fine. Others who started off as Amarr and meet a Lvl4 Sansha mission now either have to train Caldari or fail the mission, cause they're tracking disrupted to hell. PvE shouldn't be the exclusive domain of the Caldari, and the recent NPC EW changes, and the new triggers, increasingly mean that a Raven is sometimes the only ship that can even do the mission, with fof missiles, cause all other weapon systems are nerfed into uselessness. It's not right. --- Originally by: Tista i dont like you much but i'm going to agree with you on that.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.26 16:15:00 - [13] Originally by: Zrakor Many of us in the content department actually do missions on Tranquility as players, but I don't have a problem with triggers on webifiers because I either do missions in a group (which makes it no problem) or I change my setup to fit the mission. Using short range weapons simply is not ideal in some missions, while in others I prefer using that type of setup. I hope I don't sound offensive as English isn't my primary language, but: your reply sound a bit condescending and not much useful: 1) do mission in group: ok, but someone has no group with wich doing the mission (my current corp is disbanding and most of the members play at different hours than me), the system currently is not geared for group missions (no LP split up, no reward split up, unknow loot, I think you know the drill), beging webbed to inutility for gun ships is still a problem; 2) adapting the set up to missions require to know how the mission work, so unless someone read the forums, the first time he is totally in the dark; 3) really missions are moving ever more to "missiles for the win", as missiles can overcome more easily much of the new difficulties, try to give some love to other kind of playstile; 4) I hope you do mission on Tranquility as ulterior testing or for fun, as putting un-tested missions in Tranquility is a bit bad. And testing only in a group hardly gives a good evalutation of the mission. Again, I apologize it this sound harsh, as it is intended as a costructive critique, not as a flame. I find your replyes alwais interesting even when I disagree so don't be deterred from posting by my remarks.
Zeph Solaris	Posted - 2007.04.26 16:17:00 - [14] Wow, you're kidding? They web me down to 4.2-6.5 m/s
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.26 16:25:00 - [15] Originally by: Zeph Solaris Wow, you're kidding? They web me down to 4.2-6.5 m/s All normal interceptors web for 78 % or so, so it's 385 -> 84.7 -> 18.63 -> 4.09 in my case for each normal interceptor that webs me. Spider drones web for 90 % or something and some webbing cruisers and/or bosses like Krull web for 50 % or such. snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
OneSock PLuSQuAMPERFEkT iNc	Posted - 2007.04.26 16:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Zrakor Many of us in the content department actually do missions on Tranquility as players, but I don't have a problem with triggers on webifiers because I either do missions in a group (which makes it no problem) or I change my setup to fit the mission. Using short range weapons simply is not ideal in some missions, while in others I prefer using that type of setup. Are you actually using rails or are you just another caldari missile spammer ? Even with rails rather than blasters, with Antimatter your range is around 16-30km and with iridium around 48-55km. Obviously if you are webbed and cannot close range you have to change your ammo type. longer range ammo means less damage, and as they are many different NPCs operating at many different ranges you are going to be continually changing your ammo type to get the best range. Can you seriously not see how much of a pain that is ? Or should we all go train Caldari ?
Brael Wenn	Posted - 2007.04.26 16:42:00 - [17] Many of us in the content department actually do missions on Tranquility as players, but I don't have a problem with triggers on webifiers because I either do missions in a group (which makes it no problem) or I change my setup to fit the mission. Using short range weapons simply is not ideal in some missions, while in others I prefer using that type of setup. In other words, you want us to pretend this is Evergroup or World of Mommy Hold my Hand, but in space? If the devs are "testing" these missions in groups, then it's no wonder the changes appear to emphasize Caldari tactics and ships. In my experience, most people who do missions do them solo or in duos. In more than a year of play I've only met a few people who do missions in 3+ people gangs. The problem with changing your setup to suit the mission is that the current setup requires you to change to something which won't cost you drones--read: Caldari, since Amarr and Minmatar ships don't do anywhere near as well as Caldari (having trained up to Amarr command ships before changing to Caldari, with a Caldari command ship and raven I now use for missions, I'd like to hope I'm qualified to compare at least Amarr and Caldari). The problem with "random" triggers is you might end up making a mission unplayable by being unlucky. Some people might shrug and say that's the risk you'd take. Well, the real risk is making missions so that you have to decline active missions because you got unlucky. And frankly, good luck is rare in this game. Also, once you get a corp up over 8 in standing, the hit you take for declining an active mission may take dozens of missions to repair--not the one or two it might take below 8 in standing. \ Quite frankly, I can't see why anything needed to be changed in the first place. What exactly was wrong with the previous systems? The only thing I can see is that devs seem to think too many people are successfully running missions, and want to cut back on that. Why? Beats me. Maybe they want to go back to seeing 15k people at prime time on weekends, because they haven't figured out that most people don't want to be forced to pvp or lose ships to pvp style pve gameplay.
Par'Gellen Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.26 17:11:00 - [18] Is there any chance the new trigger spawns can be changed so that they act like the trigger spawns in "The Blockade"? Those ships always target me rather than my drones when they spawn. This would make the drone agro issue moot for the new triggers. --- CCP : Save my mousewheel!
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2007.04.26 19:37:00 - [19] This goes for all triggers tbh.. From a roleplaying point of view: Would you stay in you ship attacking some ship that has come for you and your friends, with your finger hovering above the 'send for reinforcements' button, while 1 by 1 your friends are dieing around you, until you get a single hit on you? From a mission runner point of view: I did Damsel in distress lvl 4 today.. in my dominix.. well that was fun, I tried keeping my drones away from kruul, but no one of my drones shot him, and there spawns the backup.. yay, retrieve drones asap before they die, rinse and repeat.. I was rather lucky and was able to finish the mission without a loss, didn't even lose a drone to the exploding station.. Did the assault, same spawns on attack triggers there, very annoying. So I know training for a raven is pretty easy, but honestly, I thought rigs finally made the other ships viable soloboats too.. Drone users are pretty much screwed with those triggers where the missile and even some sniper users have little to no troubles.. I know some ships are very well stocked with defenders but missiles work at quite long ranges and obviously up to max range all the time. At this moment a skilled user can solo these lvl 4's in a drake but I would need friends to help in a Dominix (I'd like to think I am skilled at that at least)? Change it to half their tank if you need (half shields/armour or even hull for structures?) to but really I'd like all triggers to be upon destruction.. All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..
Becq Starforged Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services	Posted - 2007.04.26 20:52:00 - [20] Originally by: Keitaro Baka From a roleplaying point of view: Would you stay in you ship attacking some ship that has come for you and your friends, with your finger hovering above the 'send for reinforcements' button, while 1 by 1 your friends are dieing around you, until you get a single hit on you? ... Change it to half their tank if you need (half shields/armour or even hull for structures?) to but really I'd like all triggers to be upon destruction.. -- Becq Starforged proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today!
Toria Nynys Minmatar	Posted - 2007.04.27 06:37:00 - [21] My 2 cents: A month ago I used to regularly team up with 2-4 other players in the Minmatar empire channel for L4 missions. Some of us would get real bored of soloing them all day, so the overwhelming force approach was a lot of fun. Lots of different ship types including logistics and other support. Nobody really cared that the rewards/lp/etc weren't split, we did this for a change of pace. With 1.4.2, I've had to turn down offers to team up for L4s because I knew I could no longer handle the difficulty in a group. And the fun has really gone out of soloing them knowing that's all I'll be doing. Moving backwards, don't you think?
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.04.27 07:31:00 - [22] Got around to do few of those new triggerhappy missions at last. No problem for me works similar manner as previously. Have not got guristas extravaganza tho still. But then again I'm one of those 'missile spamming caldary' Only thing it changed for me so far was that I had to train tanking skills on my alt and fit him with tank also. I like to drag him around with me in missions to make them go faster. Overall good change I quess - have not had those hideous freezeups lately when they all try to lock on you simultaneously.
OneSock PLuSQuAMPERFEkT iNc	Posted - 2007.04.27 10:19:00 - [23] Originally by: Keitaro Baka This goes for all triggers tbh.. From a roleplaying point of view: Would you stay in you ship attacking some ship that has come for you and your friends, with your finger hovering above the 'send for reinforcements' button, while 1 by 1 your friends are dieing around you, until you get a single hit on you? Exactly. The RP would be as I posted earlier. If you start to realise your losing the battle you call in more troops. So the trigger would be after x out of y ships go down, call in a new wave. This would be manageable if properly balanced and the new wave agro the player or other player ship rather than drones. TBH I wouldn't actually mind the drone targetting if the drones had a reasonable chance to tank until they got back to drone bay. I've got reasonable drone skills so it's not like they are paper thin, but a little boost might be in order.
Ravenal The Fated	Posted - 2007.04.27 10:24:00 - [24] Originally by: Xelios Agreed on the drones, I think it'd be far more practical to have them automatically return to orbit once they've destroyed their target. or a toggle like on guns - auto reload or not. Set at auto "reload" they find another target, if not they return to orbit. .
Ryan Scouse'UK	Posted - 2007.04.27 11:18:00 - [25] Originally by: Zrakor Edited by: Zrakor on 26/04/2007 15:40:52 Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 26/04/2007 14:39:50 Originally by: Zrakor Edited by: Zrakor on 26/04/2007 12:17:08 The Kyoukans and Webifiers in that mission don't scramble actually, they only web you. This mission may be changed in the next patch to using an exploding trigger rather than attacked trigger, which would alter the tactics needed to get through it somewhat. I do see some people's gripe with the mission, which is that it's already very long (many stages) and having it very tricky at the same time makes it too tedious for a basic(grind) mission. That will be looked into for the next patch. Even if they only web you, do you realize that it completely nerfs the ability to do that mission for any ship that has to move (i.e. any gunboat)? You either kill the triggers, can move again but face what would be stage aggro before, or you don't kill the triggers and end up trying to hit Battleships orbiting you at 40km with blasters, or cruisers orbiting you at 5km with artillery... Please for the love of god DO some of your missions before you change them. And do them in other ships than a permatanked cruise Raven too. Or better yet hire a professional mission runner to help you in balancing the PvE department :P The triggers themselves are a fine idea (except for the drone issue). Varying triggers on non-EW capable ships is a great idea to spice things up. Making triggers only fire when the ship loses its shield/armor rather than as soon as it is shot at is only logical. But making any of the EW ships the trigger is a horrible idea and should be remedied asap. As for the drone issue, just have newly arrived ships idle for a minute before they start targetting so people at least have enough time to pull in their drones. Many of us in the content department actually do missions on Tranquility as players, but I don't have a problem with triggers on webifiers because I either do missions in a group (which makes it no problem) or I change my setup to fit the mission. Using short range weapons simply is not ideal in some missions, while in others I prefer using that type of setup. tad different when you have GM implants.. & maxed skils tho no ? .. Just takes that little bit of edge off ha =P

Zrakor	Posted - 2007.04.27 11:37:00 - [26] Originally by: Ryan Scouse'UK tad different when you have GM implants.. & maxed skils tho no ? .. Just takes that little bit of edge off ha =P Heh, nah my character on TQ is completely legal. In fact I've lost a ship to missions more than once. Regardless we are doing some changes with some of the triggers for Revelations 2.0, to keep the waves more manageable to limit the 90 ship insta-pop-lag syndrome.

Zeerover Caldari DeadSpace Exploration and Investigations	Posted - 2007.04.27 12:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Zrakor Originally by: Ryan Scouse'UK tad different when you have GM implants.. & maxed skils tho no ? .. Just takes that little bit of edge off ha =P Heh, nah my character on TQ is completely legal. In fact I've lost a ship to missions more than once. Regardless we are doing some changes with some of the triggers for Revelations 2.0, to keep the waves more manageable to limit the 90 ship insta-pop-lag syndrome. I for one am happy that you guys are doing something about the insta-pop-lag syndrome, having lost a few ships to it this year. Having done various lvl4 missions over the last few days I can atleast report that from my point of view you guys are having success with the waved spawn in most of the lvl4 missions. Have done the following lvl4s over the last few days in The Forge region, flying either solo in a Raven or in a Rokh & Raven gang: 2x Worlds Collide (Guristas & Serpentis) 3x The Score (Sansha) The Right Hand of Zazzmatazz Cargo Delivery (Serpentis) 2x Massive Attack (Sansha) And no sign of the insta-pop-lag syndrome. Thx for the good work.
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.27 12:16:00 - [28] Originally by: Zrakor Originally by: Ryan Scouse'UK tad different when you have GM implants.. & maxed skils tho no ? .. Just takes that little bit of edge off ha =P Heh, nah my character on TQ is completely legal. In fact I've lost a ship to missions more than once. Regardless we are doing some changes with some of the triggers for Revelations 2.0, to keep the waves more manageable to limit the 90 ship insta-pop-lag syndrome. I enjoyed the 'Gone Berserk' ( or 'attack of the drones' for that matter ) trigger system, it made the NPC's very manageable. Only problem i had with it was that with perfect management the missions risk became almost nonexistent. Maybe the PVE content staff could come with a way to take that trigger system and build on it for other missions ? snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
Trishan Minmatar Green Men Incorporated	Posted - 2007.04.27 12:27:00 - [29] So, if understood correctly, in order to complete the mission while avoiding the unleashing of all waves of hell on you, you want to use a ship that tanks well while moving at 10 m/s, with no optimal since it can't control distance (or warp out to retool), and doesn't rely on drones. Please suggest me such ship and loadout (hopefully a Matar one). ... what?
Ohdows	Posted - 2007.04.27 13:35:00 - [30] Edited by: Ohdows on 27/04/2007 13:32:44 Originally by: Trishan So, if understood correctly, in order to complete the mission while avoiding the unleashing of all waves of hell on you, you want to use a ship that tanks well while moving at 10 m/s, with no optimal since it can't control distance (or warp out to retool), and doesn't rely on drones. Please suggest me such ship and loadout (hopefully a Matar one). ... what? CNR, althou it isn't matari ------- sorry for any misspelling or type errors (actualy i am dyslectic... so i wont apologise)
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.27 13:47:00 - [31] Originally by: Trishan So, if understood correctly, in order to complete the mission while avoiding the unleashing of all waves of hell on you, you want to use a ship that tanks well while moving at 10 m/s, with no optimal since it can't control distance (or warp out to retool), and doesn't rely on drones. Please suggest me such ship and loadout (hopefully a Matar one). ... what? Try a Machariel, give it over 800 m/s and you're set, the webbers can't go over 830 m/s and that's with short bursts. Tracking is another problem however. snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
Brael Wenn	Posted - 2007.04.27 14:50:00 - [32] Originally by: Zrakor Originally by: Ryan Scouse'UK tad different when you have GM implants.. & maxed skils tho no ? .. Just takes that little bit of edge off ha =P Heh, nah my character on TQ is completely legal. In fact I've lost a ship to missions more than once. Regardless we are doing some changes with some of the triggers for Revelations 2.0, to keep the waves more manageable to limit the 90 ship insta-pop-lag syndrome. So, if I read this correctly: CCP intends to make it even easier for Caldari ship users to farm missions, while leaving in the changes (like insta drone agro by new waves) which encourage other races to change to Caldari.
Trojanman190 Caldari The Conflagration	Posted - 2007.04.27 15:32:00 - [33] I run the new missions in a typhoon with siege launchers and heavy drones. I have never had so much fun missioning in this game. The triggers rock the way they are, I wouldn't change anything. As for only caldari doing missions... my phoon has absolutely no trouble. If you are a heavy drone user, the trick is to pull your drones slightly before a bs pops. It requires timing and practice but it works.
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.27 19:11:00 - [34] Originally by: Trojanman190 I run the new missions in a typhoon with siege launchers and heavy drones. I have never had so much fun missioning in this game. The triggers rock the way they are, I wouldn't change anything. As for only caldari doing missions... my phoon has absolutely no trouble. If you are a heavy drone user, the trick is to pull your drones slightly before a bs pops. It requires timing and practice but it works. Have you done by any chance Gurista Extravaganza recently ? I would really like to hear people say the same about that mission and a similar setup... snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
Thaddeus Brutor Minmatar The Sobani	Posted - 2007.04.27 20:01:00 - [35] Originally by: Trishan So, if understood correctly, in order to complete the mission while avoiding the unleashing of all waves of hell on you, you want to use a ship that tanks well while moving at 10 m/s, with no optimal since it can't control distance (or warp out to retool), and doesn't rely on drones. Please suggest me such ship and loadout (hopefully a Matar one). ... what? You can fit a HELLACIOUS tank on a Maelstrom, and fill the HI's with artillery. Carrying just the long and short range ammos for the damage type you're using, you can hit the cheap seats in a L4 mission. Use drones to kill the close up triggers when you're ready for the next wave. 100 m¦ drone bay, if memory serves. I myself solo L4's in an Abaddon with beams. Love it.
Ezra Gallente Calista Industries	Posted - 2007.04.29 22:52:00 - [36] Originally by: Zrakor Many of us in the content department actually do missions on Tranquility as players, but I don't have a problem with triggers on webifiers because I either do missions in a group (which makes it no problem) or I change my setup to fit the mission. Using short range weapons simply is not ideal in some missions, while in others I prefer using that type of setup. You keep on talking about encouraging grouping for missions, yet despite multiple bugreports submitted by myself (and I'm sure by others), the following still holds true: The following NPCs have the "trigger full stage agro if anyone other than the mission holder attacks" attribute set: ALL NPCs in the first stage of Guristas/Serpentis Worlds Collide ALL NPCs in the first stage of Angel Extravaganza ALL NPCs in the last stage of Serpentis Extravaganza Note that these triggers never apply to the mission holder (which is why you NEVER see solo Raven pilots complain about full stage agro in these areas), but apply to any entity other than the mission holder (whether that is other players, or more commmonly, drones controlled by the mission holder, hence the reason this is often called the "drone agro" bug). These missions (and I believe a few others exist with this bug) are one of the main reasons why no one groups for missions - Grouping = death. With current mission mechanics, many missions are significantly HARDER when grouped. And no matter what tricks you have tried to encourage grouping or variety in setups, you have so far achieved only one thing - making the missle-spamming solo Raven even more supreme to any other ship or setup for running missions. Can you name ONE single change you have ever made to mission mechanics to encourage drone use? So far, every change you've made recently has discouraged an entire weapon class that was already strongly discouraged due to the previously mentioned full-stage-agro triggers. (Well, maybe not every change, some were neutral in this regard, but zero were positive.) ------------ Ezra Cornell

Zrakor	Posted - 2007.04.29 23:23:00 - [37] Originally by: Ezra The following NPCs have the "trigger full stage agro if anyone other than the mission holder attacks" attribute set: There is no configuration in the missions which behaves like this. I have never witnessed this myself, but if this actually is a bug (and by no means am I saying it isn't) then Q/A will need to verify and assign it to a programmer. I really don't know if your bug reports have been ignored or not, but more likely Q/A simply haven't been able to verify it or the programmer simply hasn't gotten around to fixing it yet. Originally by: Ezra And no matter what tricks you have tried to encourage grouping or variety in setups, you have so far achieved only one thing - making the missle-spamming solo Raven even more supreme to any other ship or setup for running missions. Can you name ONE single change you have ever made to mission mechanics to encourage drone use? So far, every change you've made recently has discouraged an entire weapon class that was already strongly discouraged due to the previously mentioned full-stage-agro triggers. (Well, maybe not every change, some were neutral in this regard, but zero were positive.) Believe it or not we have no agenda of catering to the missile spamming Raven or nerfing drone usage. In fact I do use drones all the time in missions myself, although admittedly I do not base most of my dps on drones so calling them in between NPC waves is no biggie for me. Also the triggers and NPC mechanics do not have any bias towards drones per se, and in fact I've raised the issue of drone user complaints in Game Design already. The triggers use the same NPC aggression mechanics as everything else, and really it would be a shame if NPCs did not ever aggress your drones as that would be simply making them dumber and that's not exactly what we want. I think what we need are better drone controls and perhaps some tweaking of drone stats. The reason that this is a tricky subject is because balancing them towards PVP does not always favorably affect PVE and vice versa.

Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.29 23:45:00 - [38] Edited by: Deus Ex''Machina on 29/04/2007 23:42:44 There are some simple tools missing from the average mission runner , some would greatly help pvp gangs and grouping for pve. The most important is the aggression indicator, here's an example of how this would look if it would be in the game. -When an NPC/Player aggresses you he gets a yellow square box around his icon. -When an NPC/Player targets you he gets a red square box around his icon. -When a Player targets your gang member/drones he gets a light blue square box around his icon. -When an NPC targets/aggresses your gang member/drones he gets a light blue square box around his icon. -When a Player aggresses your gang member/drones he gets a dark blue square box around his icon. We also need a way to tell what NPC is currently scrambling you, your gangmates or your drones. Either by marking the NPC's icon in space with a sign ( two colors, for yourself and gangmates/drones ) or by some other way , the simpler the better. These are some of the reasons i don't really like group PVE. snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
Farrellus Cameron Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.04.30 00:59:00 - [39] Originally by: Zrakor Also the triggers and NPC mechanics do not have any bias towards drones per se . . . Then can you explain why launching drones in certain missions causes the entire stage to aggro, whereas attacking individual ships without drones does not? A good example would be "A Case of Kidnapping." There are multiple rooms with multiple spawns. Launching drones is not a problem in most of the rooms. However, in the fourth room, with the mecenaries, if you launch drones the entire room aggros. However, you can individually attack each spawn without launching drones and the whole room doesn't aggro. Or does explaining it reveal some sort of super secret aggro mechanic that CCP doesn't want divulged? ----------------------------------------------------
Nalar Marnith Minmatar Tetranex Consolidated	Posted - 2007.04.30 01:04:00 - [40] I also think that that triggers should be based on percentage of ships remaining rather than specific ships. Possibly with a calculation based on the number of player ships to keep things interesting. After all we don't want EASY missions, but getting slammed by several waves of ships at once does tend to suck when you have to fail that mission. Being minmatar, I'm essentially training/using pretty much everything bar hybrids and lasers. The phoon is a great example of this, missiles, drones and projectiles being about on par in terms of damage for a mission. This is good and bad in that I always have my cruise, can use my drones most of the time, and probably worst off are my arties (tracking disrupted/damped/ships that close range). Even with all this variety, it is pretty rough having to leave a trigger ship floating around causing trouble. The blockade has the faster higher dps BS as triggers, which means I have to leave it flailing on my shields while taking out his friends.
Par'Gellen Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.30 06:48:00 - [41] Edited by: Par''Gellen on 30/04/2007 06:50:00 Originally by: Zrakor Also the triggers and NPC mechanics do not have any bias towards drones per se, and in fact I've raised the issue of drone user complaints in Game Design already. The triggers use the same NPC aggression mechanics as everything else, and really it would be a shame if NPCs did not ever aggress your drones as that would be simply making them dumber and that's not exactly what we want. Try this Zrakor. Use a Dominix in the first stage of L4 World's Collide (Angels & Sansha version), make drones your primary means of attack, and you will see the wierd drone agro. As soon as the player launches his drones and attacks something the non-agressed NPC's jump all over them. It's really odd. Give it a try and you'll see what we mean. Edit: This happens in other missions as well when triggers spawn more NPC's but is really visible and easy to reproduce in the first stage of L4 WC even though there are no triggers there. --- CCP : Save my mousewheel!
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return	Posted - 2007.04.30 07:25:00 - [42] Originally by: Zrakor Originally by: Ezra The following NPCs have the "trigger full stage agro if anyone other than the mission holder attacks" attribute set: There is no configuration in the missions which behaves like this. I have never witnessed this myself, but if this actually is a bug (and by no means am I saying it isn't) then Q/A will need to verify and assign it to a programmer. I really don't know if your bug reports have been ignored or not, but more likely Q/A simply haven't been able to verify it or the programmer simply hasn't gotten around to fixing it yet. You mean all those complaints about this bug in this particulaire mission in this very forum have never been read?

Zrakor	Posted - 2007.04.30 10:41:00 - [43] Originally by: Par'Gellen Try this Zrakor. Use a Dominix in the first stage of L4 World's Collide (Angels & Sansha version), make drones your primary means of attack, and you will see the wierd drone agro. As soon as the player launches his drones and attacks something the non-agressed NPC's jump all over them. It's really odd. Give it a try and you'll see what we mean. Edit: This happens in other missions as well when triggers spawn more NPC's but is really visible and easy to reproduce in the first stage of L4 WC even though there are no triggers there. There is a bug report currently about drone aggro in dungeons (missions and complexes etc). It's currently on the programmer's desk, I think it will solve this problem once it has been dealt with.

OneSock PLuSQuAMPERFEkT iNc	Posted - 2007.04.30 10:48:00 - [44] Edited by: OneSock on 30/04/2007 10:47:21 Originally by: Zrakor Originally by: Ezra The following NPCs have the "trigger full stage agro if anyone other than the mission holder attacks" attribute set: There is no configuration in the missions which behaves like this. I have never witnessed this myself, but if this actually is a bug (and by no means am I saying it isn't) then Q/A will need to verify and assign it to a programmer. I really don't know if your bug reports have been ignored or not, but more likely Q/A simply haven't been able to verify it or the programmer simply hasn't gotten around to fixing it yet. Lol, this "bug" has existed since I joined Eve over 18 months ago and WC is probably the best known "drone/buddy agro" in the game. I'm lost for words.... just pure comedy... Tell you what, just give the word and I'm sure someone can fraps it for ya. Edit: OK seen your above post so sounds like this will be resolved soon :thumbs:

Zrakor	Posted - 2007.04.30 12:27:00 - [45] Edited by: Zrakor on 30/04/2007 13:00:14 Originally by: OneSock Edit: OK seen your above post so sounds like this will be resolved soon :thumbs: The defect (which is actually more of a feature request) which I noticed being on a programmer is about drone aggro when they fly into aggro bubbles of NPCs. The suggested change is to remove the chance of drones causing aggro by flying into aggression 'bubbles'. However this is not exactly the same thing as preventing 'full stage aggro if anyone other than the mission holder attacks'. I also believe the issue with WC is more about the second player warping in and getting sent into the aggro range of one of the NPC groups due to the jitter effect (the jitter effect prevents the players from appearing on top of one another). I haven't noticed any aggro bugs with actually attacking the NPCs (although attacking the wrong NPC can cause multi-group aggro which is by design and is not affected by who attacks the NPC, whether it be the mission runner or his gangmate/companion/drone).

Par'Gellen Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.30 16:50:00 - [46] Originally by: Zrakor The defect (which is actually more of a feature request) which I noticed being on a programmer is about drone aggro when they fly into aggro bubbles of NPCs. The suggested change is to remove the chance of drones causing aggro by flying into aggression 'bubbles'. However this is not exactly the same thing as preventing 'full stage aggro if anyone other than the mission holder attacks'. I also believe the issue with WC is more about the second player warping in and getting sent into the aggro range of one of the NPC groups due to the jitter effect (the jitter effect prevents the players from appearing on top of one another). I haven't noticed any aggro bugs with actually attacking the NPCs (although attacking the wrong NPC can cause multi-group aggro which is by design and is not affected by who attacks the NPC, whether it be the mission runner or his gangmate/companion/drone). The part about this that I don't understand is how the drones can be farther away from the NPC's than I am and still draw agro from the NPC's way on the other side of the mission. Even when the drones have been recalled the NPC's don't agro me and I should be well within their agro bubble. They just fly back to where they were before they went after the drones. It's really perplexing. --- CCP : Save my mousewheel!
Iuris Proeliator Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.04.30 17:00:00 - [47] Folks, before we start attacking Devs for "ignoring" bugs, remember they need to do more things than go "That's a bug" to fix it. They need to: A) Identify there is a bug ((Easy enough B) Ensure the bug is a repeatable and consistent bug, not just a random odd snafu ((Not so bad.)) C) Figure out WHY the bug exists ((This is where it gets hard.)) D) Figure out HOW to fix the bug ((HArder.)) E) Figure out how to fix the bug without causing a WORSE one or changing game mechanics in such a way that things are entirely screwed up. ((Very difficulty at times.)) It's not a simple process. Now, as for the whole caldari vs everyone else thing: So, missile boats have the PVE advantage. We're still in a similar boat as to ECM, at least that I've noticed. You know what can happen when you go to spam FoF missiles in one of the missions with the new triggers? Boom. THat's what. Sure, that FoF cruise missile didn't do anything but tickle that web frig... doesn't mean it didn't trigger a pop any less than a gun. Same issue there REGARDLESS of ammo. And FoF's aren't exactly brilliant. Also, Caldari boats have a NEED of drones as much as a gunboat. Do you think I want to sit there spamming cruise missiles at a frigate zipping arund me? No, waste of time, waste of ammo. I've stopped doing IV's for the moment until the triggers get adjusted, working my way up a new corp atm. Still, while Ravens have the advantage in PVE, it's a little ridiculous to see people harping on them like they're cheap and easy to train. I guess since they have an advantage atm, no one should fly Caldari in missions at all?

Zrakor	Posted - 2007.04.30 17:11:00 - [48] Originally by: Par'Gellen The part about this that I don't understand is how the drones can be farther away from the NPC's than I am and still draw agro from the NPC's way on the other side of the mission. Even when the drones have been recalled the NPC's don't agro me and I should be well within their agro bubble. They just fly back to where they were before they went after the drones. It's really perplexing. Sounds like it might be lag related or a bug in the system causing it to think the drones are somewhere else. I really can't explain that but it's definitely not intended behavior. I assume there are bug reports about that somewhere in our defect tracking system, hopefully it will be adressed soon (I don't fix those kind of bugs myself though). If it's lag related then fixing it might not be so easy though ... But regardless if the drone agression behavior is changed in the manner I described earlier then that would probably fix this issue anyway. But again I'm not the person to fix that, so I can't give any assurances at this time that it will be changed in the manner I described (as the issue is still being reviewed).

Red Rumurder 5punkorp Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.04.30 17:55:00 - [49] Originally by: Deus Ex'Machina Originally by: Trojanman190 I run the new missions in a typhoon with siege launchers and heavy drones. I have never had so much fun missioning in this game. The triggers rock the way they are, I wouldn't change anything. As for only caldari doing missions... my phoon has absolutely no trouble. If you are a heavy drone user, the trick is to pull your drones slightly before a bs pops. It requires timing and practice but it works. Have you done by any chance Gurista Extravaganza recently ? I would really like to hear people say the same about that mission and a similar setup... i hate peoples replies like this. just cause your struggling does not mean you need to whine and complain and bash other players that enjoy the changes. I use to be able to tell you every little nuance of a mission but now its like they're all new again. CCP I congratulate you in this matter. GE is one of my favorite missions. The new triggers are easy to get around and if you use good pve mission mechanics you would see all of the missions are this way. kill cruisers then bs then frigs. the frigs dps is a joke so who care if they are there or not. the missions with the communication officer you kill everything but that one. before you go off on this mind you i fly domi, raven, abaddon and apoc for missions and megathron and geddeon for pvp. everything in this game and life always works with in a set of rules. once you figure out the rules your life is easier. so train or do some more reading or ask some people before you get belligerent on people.
Par'Gellen Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:20:00 - [50] Originally by: Zrakor Sounds like it might be lag related or a bug in the system causing it to think the drones are somewhere else. I really can't explain that but it's definitely not intended behavior. I assume there are bug reports about that somewhere in our defect tracking system, hopefully it will be adressed soon (I don't fix those kind of bugs myself though). If it's lag related then fixing it might not be so easy though ... But regardless if the drone aggression behavior is changed in the manner I described earlier then that would probably fix this issue anyway. But again I'm not the person to fix that, so I can't give any assurances at this time that it will be changed in the manner I described (as the issue is still being reviewed). It's not lag in this case. That's one reason I gave L4 WC as a great example. Just hop in the first stage and pop out and use some drones and you will definitely see what I'm talking about. You can't miss it. It happens every time. If you still can't reproduce it I'd be happy to show you on the test server if you can somehow spawn the mission for me. --- CCP : Save my mousewheel!
Ezra Gallente Calista Industries	Posted - 2007.04.30 23:17:00 - [51] Originally by: Zrakor Edited by: Zrakor on 30/04/2007 18:34:09 Originally by: Par'Gellen The part about this that I don't understand is how the drones can be farther away from the NPC's than I am and still draw agro from the NPC's way on the other side of the mission. Even when the drones have been recalled the NPC's don't agro me and I should be well within their agro bubble. They just fly back to where they were before they went after the drones. It's really perplexing. Sounds like it might be lag related or a bug in the system causing it to think the drones are somewhere else. I really can't explain that but it's definitely not intended behavior. I assume there are bug reports about that somewhere in our defect tracking system, hopefully it will be adressed soon (I don't fix those kind of bugs myself though). If it's lag related then fixing it might not be so easy though ... But regardless if the drone aggression behavior is changed in the manner I described earlier then that would probably fix this issue anyway. But again I'm not the person to fix that, so I can't give any assurances at this time that it will be changed in the manner I described (as the issue is still being reviewed). People are, sadly, not giving complete information here. As I mentioned in one of my posts, it is commonly called the "drone agro" bug because the most common cause is aggressive action against a trigger NPC (which is basically any NPC in the affected area) by a drone. It is not limited to drones though. Worlds Collide is definately the best and most reliable example of this, although my experiences has typically been with the Serpentis/Guristas version. The above poster is the first report I've seen in Angels/Sanshas (mainly because the agent most of my corpmates run doesn't give the Angel/Sansha version very often, if ever.) Steps to reproduce: Mission holder enters the first stage (Warzone I believe?) of Serpentis/Guristas Worlds Collide. Typically, the Serpentis NPCs will automatically agro this player. The player then typically flies towards the Serpentis gate as most people consider that side to be easier (not really critical, although the fact that it is AWAY from the already relatively far Guristas gate and NPCs is of interest.) Now, there are two ways to trigger the bug. The first is the most common - the player launches offensive drones, the moment a drone shoots one of the Serpentis NPCs, all of the Guristas (which are now likely 100-120 km away) aggress the drone. Needless to say, the drone does NOT last long and agro transfers to the drone owner when this drone is destroyed. Some people say that it happens immediately on deploying a drone, although my suspicion is that a drone takes a long-range "pot shot" at one of the Serpentis rats (similar to how a player will take a long range "pot shot" at an NPC way out of optimal to agro that NPC). The second is if the player has a friend helping them with the mission, for example a common example is myself in my megathron. Both the mission holder (who has the agro of the Serpentis NPCs) and the friend will begin flying towards the Serpentis rats, as they start way out of optimal of most weapons, especially those used in mission running setups. At some point (again, 100-120km+ from the Guristas since the players have been flying towards the Serpentis NPCs and away from the guristas), the second player will open fire on the Guristas. The moment this happens (at least for turret users, there is likely a flight delay for turret users), ALL NPCs in the stage that do not currently have a target (i.e. the Guristas 100-120km away that supposedly hate Serpentis, at least according to the mission description) will immediately target and begin firing on the second player. Note that this is not position based - the timing of the NPC agro coincides EXACTLY with hostile action by a non-missionholder entity. (continuing in a second message) ------------ Ezra Cornell
Ezra Gallente Calista Industries	Posted - 2007.04.30 23:27:00 - [52] Note that deploying drones alone is not the trigger action here. The best example is to use a drone type that has zero chance of a hostile "pot shot" against the NPCs, i.e. a second player launching repair drones on the first. Such action has in my experience never triggered the "buddy agro" bug (remember, it is commonly called the "drone agro" bug since drones are the most common non-missionholder entity that fires on NPCs.) Similarly, a player who is not taking hostile action against NPCs in affected missions (such as a logistics ship running remote reppers) will not trigger such full stage agro. In short - The "buddy agro"/"drone agro" bug has absolutely nothing to do with accidental "body pulling", at least the particular bug I referred to in my earlier post and later confirmed (somewhat angrily) by other replies. See my previous post for an example of some affected missions, the first stage of Worlds Collide level 4 just happens to be the best example due to the extreme seperation between the Guristas and Serpentis spawns, and the fact that Guristas who are described as being in conflict with the Serpentis in the mission description suddenly come to the rescue of the Serpentis the moment anyone other than the mission holder attacks them (making it even more apparent that it is a bug rather than part of the mission design, although in my opinion any design that penalizes group mission running when CCP claims that group mission running is their vision is rather stupid.) ------------ Ezra Cornell

Zrakor	Posted - 2007.05.01 01:15:00 - [53] I sent this to Q/A, they will take a better look at it.

OneSock PLuSQuAMPERFEkT iNc	Posted - 2007.05.01 15:13:00 - [54] Good stuff. And I have WC to run so I might fraps it and send it as a bug report. BTW It would be nice to keep the "buddy agro" effect. Just not for drones to be counted as "buddy".
Ezra Gallente Calista Industries	Posted - 2007.05.01 23:37:00 - [55] Originally by: Zrakor I sent this to Q/A, they will take a better look at it. Thanks. BTW, note the edit in my post. I just realized that I said the second player fired at the Guristas, but I meant Serpentis (followed by the Guristas agroing) in the case described above. ------------ Ezra Cornell
El'essar Viocragh	Posted - 2007.05.02 00:46:00 - [56] If I knew this thread, i would have fraps'ed our WC yesterday. Mission holder warps in, heads over to the angel gate, starts shooting that group. Gangmate in a Bellicose warps in, heads over to the angel gate too. Activates target painters on targets in the angel group. Takes a few seconds, then the Bellicose has complete aggro from the NPCs at the sansha gate (120-140km away). It is a problem if you don't know it. If you know it, it can be worked around (warp out the Bellicose to switch aggression, then warp in the rest of the gang, one half set up against angels, the other against sansha. Eliminate the sanshas before the mission holders anti-angel tank fails). And that is what people have to get used to if they do missions in groups - warp out. Either everyone brings a battleship with a fitting capable of doing the mission alone, or your support is more in warp than firing its guns. We used to send in one or two battleships with quite nasty tanks, draw full stage aggro, and then get the rest of the group in. Cruiser, destroyer, logistics etc. Well, we still do it, but in fewer missions. Many triggers whose spawns aggress someone on appearance, in the 3rd stage of a mission with 40km between the gates gets to the point where no player is willing to fly a support ship anymore. You will hear "warp drive active" more often than the sound of a turret firing. And by the time you are back in the proper stage, it is near cleared. Heading into the next stage, to warp out after 30 seconds, as the reinforcements are after your little destroyer.
OneSock PLuSQuAMPERFEkT iNc	Posted - 2007.05.02 11:11:00 - [57] Sadly, no Fraps for me, too much data at the res I play at. Maybe try again when I have some more diskspace/ better compression software. Just a sit rep on my WC last night. I think I had every drone problem going. 1. Drones attacking serpentis cause gurista agro. Check! 2. Heavy Drones getting stuck on each other and crawling back to bay. Check ! 3. Drones switching target of their own accord/not obeying commands. Check ! Is that a full house ? Actually I think problem 3 is caused by either the time or distance it takes to get to an NPC. eg. if heavies are idle in orbit around ship and I target a NPC at max control range (48km), I set them to engage and off they go. About 40km out they decide to switch targets. Not sure if this is time or distance related or something else. Another bug to FRAPS and bug report ? Or is this a feature ?!
Brael Wenn	Posted - 2007.05.02 14:56:00 - [58] Edited by: Brael Wenn on 02/05/2007 14:53:11 Originally by: OneSock Sadly, no Fraps for me, too much data at the res I play at. Maybe try again when I have some more diskspace/ better compression software. Just a sit rep on my WC last night. I think I had every drone problem going. 1. Drones attacking serpentis cause gurista agro. Check! 2. Heavy Drones getting stuck on each other and crawling back to bay. Check ! 3. Drones switching target of their own accord/not obeying commands. Check ! Is that a full house ? Actually I think problem 3 is caused by either the time or distance it takes to get to an NPC. eg. if heavies are idle in orbit around ship and I target a NPC at max control range (48km), I set them to engage and off they go. About 40km out they decide to switch targets. Not sure if this is time or distance related or something else. Another bug to FRAPS and bug report ? Or is this a feature ?! No, problem 3 is not caused by distance. Leastways, not in my experience. I've had drones switch targets 10km away from the ship, and had them not change targets at all 70km away. Rule of thumb for any drone user is to keep telling your drones what to attack, unless you don't mind them picking their own targets. The agro on drones problem with the new waves from triggers is not caused by drones randomly attacking the new waves. I've had it happen with drones orbiting right next to my ship and the new waves 70km from the drones. There's a pre-screw up mission which did (and does) the same thing the post-screw up missions do: Intercept the Pirate Smugglers, lvl 3. In this mission, pre and post, you warp in, take care of 2-6 frigs (depending on the rat type) and a couple turrets. After a set amount of time a new wave of 4 industrials and assorted frigs and a few cruisers warp in on top of you. Without fail (and I've done this mission dozens of times in a domi and raven) the new wave will immediately agro on any drones you have out. Doesn't matter if the drones are orbiting or flying back from killing a rat. If you have drones out in this mission, they'll catch agro first, despite doing nothing. So, the flaw has been here for a while, but has been transferred over to the post-screw up missions. I say post-screw up, because the only justification I can see for removing drones from practical use in lvl 3 and 4 missions is to force everyone into Caldari ships. Mind you I fly Caldari, but I don't believe everyone should be forced to fly one ship to succeed in missions. By the way, Zrakor: I've never actually seen the Earth revolve around the sun. But I've heard it does . I've never seen London either, for that matter, but I've heard it exists and that people actually live there. I'll let you draw your own conclusions about how that applies to your comments above.
Enduros	Posted - 2007.05.02 16:04:00 - [59] Originally by: Deus Ex'Machina Try a Machariel, give it over 800 m/s and you're set, the webbers can't go over 830 m/s and that's with short bursts. Tracking is another problem however. I got a machariel after drones became unusable. My old domi is collecting dust. Webbing can't be overcome, you can't pop the entire spawn while running away from webbers, and once you are webbed the only strong point of the machariel, which is speed, is lost =(. Can't play with optimal range or lower transvercal. As of eWar ships triggering things. Web.. well guristas mostly web but then again you can't really snipe them since their missiles go on forever(cruisers bombing from 100km is stupid imo, fix it). But.. anyone done "The assault" vs guristas?? yea... 2 jamming rats trigger a spawn of 7 (yes SEVEN!) jamming rats. And if you use drones you trigger full stage aggro. Ended up turning it down. So definately eWar capable ships should trigger anything.
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.05.02 16:44:00 - [60] Originally by: Enduros Edited by: Enduros on 02/05/2007 16:09:12 Originally by: Deus Ex'Machina Try a Machariel, give it over 800 m/s and you're set, the webbers can't go over 830 m/s and that's with short bursts. Tracking is another problem however. I got a machariel after drones became unusable. My old domi is collecting dust. Webbing can't be overcome, you can't pop the entire spawn while running away from webbers, and once you are webbed the only strong point of the machariel, which is speed, is lost =(. Can't play with optimal range or lower transvercal. As of eWar ships triggering things. Web.. well guristas mostly web but then again you can't really snipe them since their missiles go on forever(cruisers bombing from 100km is stupid imo, fix it). But.. anyone done "The assault" vs guristas?? yea... 2 jamming rats trigger a spawn of 7 (yes SEVEN!) jamming rats. And if you use drones you trigger full stage aggro. Ended up turning it down. So definately eWar capable ships shouldn't trigger anything. And i was planning on flying one soon :-/ . Oh well , i guess we'll just have to see how all of this turns out in the end. snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.05.03 12:12:00 - [61] Edited by: Cheyenne Shadowborn on 03/05/2007 12:29:32 Edited by: Cheyenne Shadowborn on 03/05/2007 12:28:44 Originally by: Zrakor The defect (which is actually more of a feature request) which I noticed being on a programmer is about drone aggro when they fly into aggro bubbles of NPCs. The suggested change is to remove the chance of drones causing aggro by flying into aggression 'bubbles'. Woot. Very nice - after all, this will address one of the most often voiced griefs for drone users. Any ETA on this? I mean, how hard of a code change is this - assuming a decent codebase, a boolean? Edit: A few more words on drones and gameplay in general. Lets look at missiles and drones for some comparision, but you could substitute missiles with any other weapon, projectiles, etc. Assumption: The goal is to have drone damage (or drone damage plus available other weapons on a gallente ship) ballanced with the damage of other weapon systems on a comparable ship of another race. Else, its a bad thing for PvP. So, it follows, drones can't be made significantly stronger without unbalancing PvP. Now in terms of "afk-ability" and PvE, missiles are fire-and-forget. Drones seemingly require micro management, i.e. asking them to attack or as said above, pulling them back before a BS pops, or pulling them in when they get aggroed. Conclusion I: Assuming equal strength, there is no incentive (apart from challenge) to use a drone boat such as a domi over a pure missile boat such as a raven. THATS in part why the raven is everybodies mission darling. Solution? Make PvE stuff never aggro drones! Yes, thats right. Flame me if you like. But they don't shoot down your missiles either (disregarding the occasional rare and borked Defender rat). That way, drones will be a different flavour of weapon system just like missiles and rails, and maybe a bit more boring for some, but less frustrating and this eliminates a whole class of code problems that, according to some, have an Eve track record of 18 months. Rats will shoot the player Domi that way the same way they shoot the player Raven, and not his weapon system. It also eliminates this whole "playing for the sake of game mechanics" aspect of drones that totally gimps immersion in the game. I mean - having to pull drones just because thats how the game engine happens to work, knowing that once they stop being targeted by one ship they can be released again and will never be targeted again by the same rat? Thats what I call playstyle for the sake of game mechanics. Of course you could also solve the later by having MORE randomness and/or AI, and have the rats re-target drones or have them switch targets once in a while, or keep them targeted after they're re-deployed. What roleplay reason would there ever be for this mechanic of a rat deciding to shoot a drone, but stop just because it briefly disappeared? Did it become less of a priority as a target by being scooped briefly? Makes little sense. But I'd bet that a more smart rat AI would lead to a lot of frustration with regards to drones unless done _really_ right, so my suggestion is to just make drones unaggroable by rats. Flame away -- CCP: PLEASE fix the forum software - thanks.
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.05.03 13:43:00 - [62] Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn Conclusion I: Assuming equal strength, there is no incentive (apart from challenge) to use a drone boat such as a domi over a pure missile boat such as a raven. THATS in part why the raven is everybodies mission darling. I find this to be false, because while you get to keep the ability to change your damage type according to the mission you are facing (just like with missiles, well almost), you get the advantage of doing missions with more pvp centric skills / ships , as opposed to the Caldri skills/ships that are so much less efficient in low scale pvp ( or so say the forums ^^; ). And since many players don't plan on starting a Caldari alt ( meta-gaming ? ) to mission run with they stick with what experience has tought them to be usefull in PVP. This is what i think the reasoning may be for so many players to go Gallente in PVE. snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.05.03 13:57:00 - [63] Originally by: Deus Ex'Machina Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn Conclusion I: Assuming equal strength, there is no incentive (apart from challenge) to use a drone boat such as a domi over a pure missile boat such as a raven. THATS in part why the raven is everybodies mission darling. I find this to be false, because while you get to keep the ability to change your damage type according to the mission you are facing (just like with missiles, well almost), you get the advantage of doing missions with more pvp centric skills / ships , as opposed to the Caldri skills/ships that are so much less efficient in low scale pvp ( or so say the forums ^^; ). And since many players don't plan on starting a Caldari alt ( meta-gaming ? ) to mission run with they stick with what experience has tought them to be usefull in PVP. This is what i think the reasoning may be for so many players to go Gallente in PVE. But isn't this another way of saying that the races typical skills aren't properly balanced for PvP either? -- CCP: PLEASE fix the forum software - thanks.
El'essar Viocragh	Posted - 2007.05.03 15:40:00 - [64] Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn Solution? Make PvE stuff never aggro drones! Yes, thats right. Flame me if you like. But they don't shoot down your missiles either (disregarding the occasional rare and borked Defender rat). Isn't that the equivalent of as misshot because of tracking issues? Shooting drones seems more comparable to destroying a launcher to me.
Enduros	Posted - 2007.05.03 18:29:00 - [65] It is my view that missiles are flawed in general. There is no defense against them, PvE or PvP, same thing. To counter a gunboat, say a BS, you can either get out of it's range or boost your transvercal and you will not be hit. And along with all the eWar you have tracking disruptors that target the turret systems. To counter a missile boat you can either get out of it's lock range, throw a damp or a jam at it. Manovering doesn't really help and there are no specific anti missile systems. Defender missiles, completely useless.. honestly why do you need 3 of them to pop a torp. And this is why most mission runners fly a raven, other than disrupting a lock or damp nothing really hinders them other then occasional Rachen. They don't need to move to spam missiles so web is no problem. There are FoF missiles that can counter jamming. Fair enough it's like drones with a mind of their own, but they don't get killed. And on top of that they have the ability to choose the exact right damage type, and only that type. And it works both ways, say you go for a more agile setup on a gunboat(at the expense of tank) you can't really counter guristas and some angles, cause the range on those torps is just silly and there is no way to counter it. Perhaps if things were made a bit more tactical, for instance making defenders work, and giving rats defenders too on occasion. Possibly mixing up damage types on missiles just like projectiles have. Maybe there wouldn't be all ravens out there. activates the thermal hardener II on Machariel Flame it.

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