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A less biased view on the new triggers and a request.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 8 post(s)
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.26 12:09:00 - [1] I've done Gurista Extravaganza again and this time i could notice the exact impact the new trigger mechanisms had on my gameplay. Currently , the trigger for spawning a new wave of ships in every room is aggressive action versus a Kyoukan, it's enough to take a potshot at it. All in all it's nice and dandy that i can fight 5-10 ships at the time without direct risk of mass agro, but Kyoukan's have this bad habit of webbing and scrambling your ship. Since I don't do missions in low sec i don't mind being scrambled but because i'm webbed i can no longer loot and salvage the wrecks, mainly because my speed often plummets to 85 or 25 m/s. This negatively impacted my gameplay. I can no longer dictate the range, loot or salvage unless i purposely kill all the trigger ships so my faction afterburner and salvager became useless... Just switch to an AFK raven and a salvage ship, right ? Well no. In conclusion, A good way to make these changes 'fun' for me would be to move the triggers from the interceptors to the cruisers or battlecruisers, moreover make the trigger ship be random, not knowing what cruiser / battlecruiser spawns the next wave could still give the trigger system a degree of uncertainty. Also , changing the moment the trigger is activated from -the first aggressive action- to -when down to 50% shields- would allow us to actually use our drones again. snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!

Zrakor	Posted - 2007.04.26 12:16:00 - [2] Edited by: Zrakor on 26/04/2007 12:17:08 The Kyoukans and Webifiers in that mission don't scramble actually, they only web you. This mission may be changed in the next patch to using an exploding trigger rather than attacked trigger, which would alter the tactics needed to get through it somewhat. I do see some people's gripe with the mission, which is that it's already very long (many stages) and having it very tricky at the same time makes it too tedious for a basic(grind) mission. That will be looked into for the next patch.

Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.26 12:19:00 - [3] Edited by: Deus Ex''Machina on 26/04/2007 12:27:12 Originally by: Zrakor The Kyoukans and Webifiers in that mission don't scramble actually, they only web you. I rarely warp out of missions so i can't really tell , my bad. Originally by: Zrakor I do see some people's gripe with the mission, which is that it's already very long (many stages) and having it very tricky at the same time makes it too tedious for a basic(grind) mission. Firstly, i don't really mind the mission being long and/or tricky. But there are a few ways to fix this actually. One would be to find a way to stop respawning the mission rats after downtime, maybe mark a stage a completed when it's been cleared ? This would have some positive side effects against mission farming / chaining. snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return	Posted - 2007.04.26 12:27:00 - [4] Originally by: Zrakor Edited by: Zrakor on 26/04/2007 12:17:08 The Kyoukans and Webifiers in that mission don't scramble actually, they only web you. This mission may be changed in the next patch to using an exploding trigger rather than attacked trigger, which would alter the tactics needed to get through it somewhat. I do see some people's gripe with the mission, which is that it's already very long (many stages) and having it very tricky at the same time makes it too tedious for a basic(grind) mission. That will be looked into for the next patch. Attacked triggers are very, very annoying for drone users. Wheither you use drones as main weapon or just as backup, they are simply too fast to shoot at a random target once their current target is dead no matter how well you micromanage them. And micromanaging your drones isn't my favorite part of the game.
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.04.26 12:36:00 - [5] Agreed on the drones, I think it'd be far more practical to have them automatically return to orbit once they've destroyed their target.
FT Diomedes	Posted - 2007.04.26 12:50:00 - [6] Originally by: Deus Ex'Machina A good way to make these changes 'fun' for me would be to move the triggers from the interceptors to the cruisers or battlecruisers, moreover make the trigger ship be random, not knowing what cruiser / battlecruiser spawns the next wave could still give the trigger system a degree of uncertainty. Also , changing the moment the trigger is activated from -the first aggressive action- to -when down to 50% shields- would allow us to actually use our drones again. Both very good changes. I really like the idea of not knowing which enemy ship will be the one to trigger reinforcements. It may make the missions harder, but it's more realistic. As a Gallente, I also like the idea of something that makes drones a bit easier to use (I'd hate to see everyone in my corp flying Caldari ships because missiles are easier to use).
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.04.26 14:39:00 - [7] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 26/04/2007 14:39:50 Originally by: Zrakor Edited by: Zrakor on 26/04/2007 12:17:08 The Kyoukans and Webifiers in that mission don't scramble actually, they only web you. This mission may be changed in the next patch to using an exploding trigger rather than attacked trigger, which would alter the tactics needed to get through it somewhat. I do see some people's gripe with the mission, which is that it's already very long (many stages) and having it very tricky at the same time makes it too tedious for a basic(grind) mission. That will be looked into for the next patch. Even if they only web you, do you realize that it completely nerfs the ability to do that mission for any ship that has to move (i.e. any gunboat)? You either kill the triggers, can move again but face what would be stage aggro before, or you don't kill the triggers and end up trying to hit Battleships orbiting you at 40km with blasters, or cruisers orbiting you at 5km with artillery... Please for the love of god DO some of your missions before you change them. And do them in other ships than a permatanked cruise Raven too. Or better yet hire a professional mission runner to help you in balancing the PvE department :P The triggers themselves are a fine idea (except for the drone issue). Varying triggers on non-EW capable ships is a great idea to spice things up. Making triggers only fire when the ship loses its shield/armor rather than as soon as it is shot at is only logical. But making any of the EW ships the trigger is a horrible idea and should be remedied asap. As for the drone issue, just have newly arrived ships idle for a minute before they start targetting so people at least have enough time to pull in their drones. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.26 14:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Or better yet hire a professional mission runner to help you in balancing the PvE department :P I might go for such a job snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
OneSock PLuSQuAMPERFEkT iNc	Posted - 2007.04.26 15:09:00 - [9] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Please for the love of god DO some of your missions before you change them. And do them in other ships than a permatanked cruise Raven too. Or better yet hire a professional mission runner to help you in balancing the PvE department :P /signed in triplicate To add my 2p I think the main problem is that triggering on frigates in this way makes it more or less impossible to kill scrambling frigates. You drop your T2 small drones to take them out but as soon as they pop the drones will agro and attack the other frigs very quickly. Change the trigger to "on ship destruction" would be better for sure. I'd also avoid webber frigates as this really nerfs ability to get to range. If you want to inject a bit of realism then rather than a single trigger rat, then maybe trigger after a certain number of BS/BCs have been taken out ? This would be more realistic. Currently: Trigger ship captain: "Ho well, all my friends are now dead and I'm going down, better call a new wave of fodder". More realistic: Commander ship: "We have lost 60% of our force, we are losing, better call reinforcements."

Zrakor	Posted - 2007.04.26 15:44:00 - [10] Edited by: Zrakor on 26/04/2007 15:40:52 Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 26/04/2007 14:39:50 Originally by: Zrakor Edited by: Zrakor on 26/04/2007 12:17:08 The Kyoukans and Webifiers in that mission don't scramble actually, they only web you. This mission may be changed in the next patch to using an exploding trigger rather than attacked trigger, which would alter the tactics needed to get through it somewhat. I do see some people's gripe with the mission, which is that it's already very long (many stages) and having it very tricky at the same time makes it too tedious for a basic(grind) mission. That will be looked into for the next patch. Even if they only web you, do you realize that it completely nerfs the ability to do that mission for any ship that has to move (i.e. any gunboat)? You either kill the triggers, can move again but face what would be stage aggro before, or you don't kill the triggers and end up trying to hit Battleships orbiting you at 40km with blasters, or cruisers orbiting you at 5km with artillery... Please for the love of god DO some of your missions before you change them. And do them in other ships than a permatanked cruise Raven too. Or better yet hire a professional mission runner to help you in balancing the PvE department :P The triggers themselves are a fine idea (except for the drone issue). Varying triggers on non-EW capable ships is a great idea to spice things up. Making triggers only fire when the ship loses its shield/armor rather than as soon as it is shot at is only logical. But making any of the EW ships the trigger is a horrible idea and should be remedied asap. As for the drone issue, just have newly arrived ships idle for a minute before they start targetting so people at least have enough time to pull in their drones. Many of us in the content department actually do missions on Tranquility as players, but I don't have a problem with triggers on webifiers because I either do missions in a group (which makes it no problem) or I change my setup to fit the mission. Using short range weapons simply is not ideal in some missions, while in others I prefer using that type of setup.

Hephaesteus Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.26 15:49:00 - [11] Originally by: Zrakor This mission may be changed in the next patch to using an exploding trigger rather than attacked trigger Does that mean if you use rails it wont activate. I soloed Guri Ex after the patch. It did take a little longer to do, but in the main that was because I was being cautious because of patch deployment. In reality it does not make a whole lot of difference in the time it takes to complete, for me anyway. Only difference I can see is now I cannot snipe the frigs before they get close, but drones make short work of them when the main spawn has been destroyed and you are ready for the next lot. All in all I like the new triggers.
Marquis Dean Energy. Insurgency	Posted - 2007.04.26 15:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Zrakor Many of us in the content department actually do missions on Tranquility as players, but I don't have a problem with triggers on webifiers because I either do missions in a group (which makes it no problem) or I change my setup to fit the mission. Using short range weapons simply is not ideal in some missions, while in others I prefer using that type of setup. That's still not fair on certain players. People who started off as Caldari and are skilled for Ravens are fine. Others who started off as Amarr and meet a Lvl4 Sansha mission now either have to train Caldari or fail the mission, cause they're tracking disrupted to hell. PvE shouldn't be the exclusive domain of the Caldari, and the recent NPC EW changes, and the new triggers, increasingly mean that a Raven is sometimes the only ship that can even do the mission, with fof missiles, cause all other weapon systems are nerfed into uselessness. It's not right. --- Originally by: Tista i dont like you much but i'm going to agree with you on that.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.26 16:15:00 - [13] Originally by: Zrakor Many of us in the content department actually do missions on Tranquility as players, but I don't have a problem with triggers on webifiers because I either do missions in a group (which makes it no problem) or I change my setup to fit the mission. Using short range weapons simply is not ideal in some missions, while in others I prefer using that type of setup. I hope I don't sound offensive as English isn't my primary language, but: your reply sound a bit condescending and not much useful: 1) do mission in group: ok, but someone has no group with wich doing the mission (my current corp is disbanding and most of the members play at different hours than me), the system currently is not geared for group missions (no LP split up, no reward split up, unknow loot, I think you know the drill), beging webbed to inutility for gun ships is still a problem; 2) adapting the set up to missions require to know how the mission work, so unless someone read the forums, the first time he is totally in the dark; 3) really missions are moving ever more to "missiles for the win", as missiles can overcome more easily much of the new difficulties, try to give some love to other kind of playstile; 4) I hope you do mission on Tranquility as ulterior testing or for fun, as putting un-tested missions in Tranquility is a bit bad. And testing only in a group hardly gives a good evalutation of the mission. Again, I apologize it this sound harsh, as it is intended as a costructive critique, not as a flame. I find your replyes alwais interesting even when I disagree so don't be deterred from posting by my remarks.
Zeph Solaris	Posted - 2007.04.26 16:17:00 - [14] Wow, you're kidding? They web me down to 4.2-6.5 m/s
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.26 16:25:00 - [15] Originally by: Zeph Solaris Wow, you're kidding? They web me down to 4.2-6.5 m/s All normal interceptors web for 78 % or so, so it's 385 -> 84.7 -> 18.63 -> 4.09 in my case for each normal interceptor that webs me. Spider drones web for 90 % or something and some webbing cruisers and/or bosses like Krull web for 50 % or such. snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
OneSock PLuSQuAMPERFEkT iNc	Posted - 2007.04.26 16:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Zrakor Many of us in the content department actually do missions on Tranquility as players, but I don't have a problem with triggers on webifiers because I either do missions in a group (which makes it no problem) or I change my setup to fit the mission. Using short range weapons simply is not ideal in some missions, while in others I prefer using that type of setup. Are you actually using rails or are you just another caldari missile spammer ? Even with rails rather than blasters, with Antimatter your range is around 16-30km and with iridium around 48-55km. Obviously if you are webbed and cannot close range you have to change your ammo type. longer range ammo means less damage, and as they are many different NPCs operating at many different ranges you are going to be continually changing your ammo type to get the best range. Can you seriously not see how much of a pain that is ? Or should we all go train Caldari ?
Brael Wenn	Posted - 2007.04.26 16:42:00 - [17] Many of us in the content department actually do missions on Tranquility as players, but I don't have a problem with triggers on webifiers because I either do missions in a group (which makes it no problem) or I change my setup to fit the mission. Using short range weapons simply is not ideal in some missions, while in others I prefer using that type of setup. In other words, you want us to pretend this is Evergroup or World of Mommy Hold my Hand, but in space? If the devs are "testing" these missions in groups, then it's no wonder the changes appear to emphasize Caldari tactics and ships. In my experience, most people who do missions do them solo or in duos. In more than a year of play I've only met a few people who do missions in 3+ people gangs. The problem with changing your setup to suit the mission is that the current setup requires you to change to something which won't cost you drones--read: Caldari, since Amarr and Minmatar ships don't do anywhere near as well as Caldari (having trained up to Amarr command ships before changing to Caldari, with a Caldari command ship and raven I now use for missions, I'd like to hope I'm qualified to compare at least Amarr and Caldari). The problem with "random" triggers is you might end up making a mission unplayable by being unlucky. Some people might shrug and say that's the risk you'd take. Well, the real risk is making missions so that you have to decline active missions because you got unlucky. And frankly, good luck is rare in this game. Also, once you get a corp up over 8 in standing, the hit you take for declining an active mission may take dozens of missions to repair--not the one or two it might take below 8 in standing. \ Quite frankly, I can't see why anything needed to be changed in the first place. What exactly was wrong with the previous systems? The only thing I can see is that devs seem to think too many people are successfully running missions, and want to cut back on that. Why? Beats me. Maybe they want to go back to seeing 15k people at prime time on weekends, because they haven't figured out that most people don't want to be forced to pvp or lose ships to pvp style pve gameplay.
Par'Gellen Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.26 17:11:00 - [18] Is there any chance the new trigger spawns can be changed so that they act like the trigger spawns in "The Blockade"? Those ships always target me rather than my drones when they spawn. This would make the drone agro issue moot for the new triggers. --- CCP : Save my mousewheel!
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2007.04.26 19:37:00 - [19] This goes for all triggers tbh.. From a roleplaying point of view: Would you stay in you ship attacking some ship that has come for you and your friends, with your finger hovering above the 'send for reinforcements' button, while 1 by 1 your friends are dieing around you, until you get a single hit on you? From a mission runner point of view: I did Damsel in distress lvl 4 today.. in my dominix.. well that was fun, I tried keeping my drones away from kruul, but no one of my drones shot him, and there spawns the backup.. yay, retrieve drones asap before they die, rinse and repeat.. I was rather lucky and was able to finish the mission without a loss, didn't even lose a drone to the exploding station.. Did the assault, same spawns on attack triggers there, very annoying. So I know training for a raven is pretty easy, but honestly, I thought rigs finally made the other ships viable soloboats too.. Drone users are pretty much screwed with those triggers where the missile and even some sniper users have little to no troubles.. I know some ships are very well stocked with defenders but missiles work at quite long ranges and obviously up to max range all the time. At this moment a skilled user can solo these lvl 4's in a drake but I would need friends to help in a Dominix (I'd like to think I am skilled at that at least)? Change it to half their tank if you need (half shields/armour or even hull for structures?) to but really I'd like all triggers to be upon destruction.. All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..
Becq Starforged Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services	Posted - 2007.04.26 20:52:00 - [20] Originally by: Keitaro Baka From a roleplaying point of view: Would you stay in you ship attacking some ship that has come for you and your friends, with your finger hovering above the 'send for reinforcements' button, while 1 by 1 your friends are dieing around you, until you get a single hit on you? ... Change it to half their tank if you need (half shields/armour or even hull for structures?) to but really I'd like all triggers to be upon destruction.. -- Becq Starforged proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today!
Toria Nynys Minmatar	Posted - 2007.04.27 06:37:00 - [21] My 2 cents: A month ago I used to regularly team up with 2-4 other players in the Minmatar empire channel for L4 missions. Some of us would get real bored of soloing them all day, so the overwhelming force approach was a lot of fun. Lots of different ship types including logistics and other support. Nobody really cared that the rewards/lp/etc weren't split, we did this for a change of pace. With 1.4.2, I've had to turn down offers to team up for L4s because I knew I could no longer handle the difficulty in a group. And the fun has really gone out of soloing them knowing that's all I'll be doing. Moving backwards, don't you think?
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.04.27 07:31:00 - [22] Got around to do few of those new triggerhappy missions at last. No problem for me works similar manner as previously. Have not got guristas extravaganza tho still. But then again I'm one of those 'missile spamming caldary' Only thing it changed for me so far was that I had to train tanking skills on my alt and fit him with tank also. I like to drag him around with me in missions to make them go faster. Overall good change I quess - have not had those hideous freezeups lately when they all try to lock on you simultaneously.
OneSock PLuSQuAMPERFEkT iNc	Posted - 2007.04.27 10:19:00 - [23] Originally by: Keitaro Baka This goes for all triggers tbh.. From a roleplaying point of view: Would you stay in you ship attacking some ship that has come for you and your friends, with your finger hovering above the 'send for reinforcements' button, while 1 by 1 your friends are dieing around you, until you get a single hit on you? Exactly. The RP would be as I posted earlier. If you start to realise your losing the battle you call in more troops. So the trigger would be after x out of y ships go down, call in a new wave. This would be manageable if properly balanced and the new wave agro the player or other player ship rather than drones. TBH I wouldn't actually mind the drone targetting if the drones had a reasonable chance to tank until they got back to drone bay. I've got reasonable drone skills so it's not like they are paper thin, but a little boost might be in order.
Ravenal The Fated	Posted - 2007.04.27 10:24:00 - [24] Originally by: Xelios Agreed on the drones, I think it'd be far more practical to have them automatically return to orbit once they've destroyed their target. or a toggle like on guns - auto reload or not. Set at auto "reload" they find another target, if not they return to orbit. .
Ryan Scouse'UK	Posted - 2007.04.27 11:18:00 - [25] Originally by: Zrakor Edited by: Zrakor on 26/04/2007 15:40:52 Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 26/04/2007 14:39:50 Originally by: Zrakor Edited by: Zrakor on 26/04/2007 12:17:08 The Kyoukans and Webifiers in that mission don't scramble actually, they only web you. This mission may be changed in the next patch to using an exploding trigger rather than attacked trigger, which would alter the tactics needed to get through it somewhat. I do see some people's gripe with the mission, which is that it's already very long (many stages) and having it very tricky at the same time makes it too tedious for a basic(grind) mission. That will be looked into for the next patch. Even if they only web you, do you realize that it completely nerfs the ability to do that mission for any ship that has to move (i.e. any gunboat)? You either kill the triggers, can move again but face what would be stage aggro before, or you don't kill the triggers and end up trying to hit Battleships orbiting you at 40km with blasters, or cruisers orbiting you at 5km with artillery... Please for the love of god DO some of your missions before you change them. And do them in other ships than a permatanked cruise Raven too. Or better yet hire a professional mission runner to help you in balancing the PvE department :P The triggers themselves are a fine idea (except for the drone issue). Varying triggers on non-EW capable ships is a great idea to spice things up. Making triggers only fire when the ship loses its shield/armor rather than as soon as it is shot at is only logical. But making any of the EW ships the trigger is a horrible idea and should be remedied asap. As for the drone issue, just have newly arrived ships idle for a minute before they start targetting so people at least have enough time to pull in their drones. Many of us in the content department actually do missions on Tranquility as players, but I don't have a problem with triggers on webifiers because I either do missions in a group (which makes it no problem) or I change my setup to fit the mission. Using short range weapons simply is not ideal in some missions, while in others I prefer using that type of setup. tad different when you have GM implants.. & maxed skils tho no ? .. Just takes that little bit of edge off ha =P

Zrakor	Posted - 2007.04.27 11:37:00 - [26] Originally by: Ryan Scouse'UK tad different when you have GM implants.. & maxed skils tho no ? .. Just takes that little bit of edge off ha =P Heh, nah my character on TQ is completely legal. In fact I've lost a ship to missions more than once. Regardless we are doing some changes with some of the triggers for Revelations 2.0, to keep the waves more manageable to limit the 90 ship insta-pop-lag syndrome.

Zeerover Caldari DeadSpace Exploration and Investigations	Posted - 2007.04.27 12:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Zrakor Originally by: Ryan Scouse'UK tad different when you have GM implants.. & maxed skils tho no ? .. Just takes that little bit of edge off ha =P Heh, nah my character on TQ is completely legal. In fact I've lost a ship to missions more than once. Regardless we are doing some changes with some of the triggers for Revelations 2.0, to keep the waves more manageable to limit the 90 ship insta-pop-lag syndrome. I for one am happy that you guys are doing something about the insta-pop-lag syndrome, having lost a few ships to it this year. Having done various lvl4 missions over the last few days I can atleast report that from my point of view you guys are having success with the waved spawn in most of the lvl4 missions. Have done the following lvl4s over the last few days in The Forge region, flying either solo in a Raven or in a Rokh & Raven gang: 2x Worlds Collide (Guristas & Serpentis) 3x The Score (Sansha) The Right Hand of Zazzmatazz Cargo Delivery (Serpentis) 2x Massive Attack (Sansha) And no sign of the insta-pop-lag syndrome. Thx for the good work.
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.27 12:16:00 - [28] Originally by: Zrakor Originally by: Ryan Scouse'UK tad different when you have GM implants.. & maxed skils tho no ? .. Just takes that little bit of edge off ha =P Heh, nah my character on TQ is completely legal. In fact I've lost a ship to missions more than once. Regardless we are doing some changes with some of the triggers for Revelations 2.0, to keep the waves more manageable to limit the 90 ship insta-pop-lag syndrome. I enjoyed the 'Gone Berserk' ( or 'attack of the drones' for that matter ) trigger system, it made the NPC's very manageable. Only problem i had with it was that with perfect management the missions risk became almost nonexistent. Maybe the PVE content staff could come with a way to take that trigger system and build on it for other missions ? snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
Trishan Minmatar Green Men Incorporated	Posted - 2007.04.27 12:27:00 - [29] So, if understood correctly, in order to complete the mission while avoiding the unleashing of all waves of hell on you, you want to use a ship that tanks well while moving at 10 m/s, with no optimal since it can't control distance (or warp out to retool), and doesn't rely on drones. Please suggest me such ship and loadout (hopefully a Matar one). ... what?
Ohdows	Posted - 2007.04.27 13:35:00 - [30] Edited by: Ohdows on 27/04/2007 13:32:44 Originally by: Trishan So, if understood correctly, in order to complete the mission while avoiding the unleashing of all waves of hell on you, you want to use a ship that tanks well while moving at 10 m/s, with no optimal since it can't control distance (or warp out to retool), and doesn't rely on drones. Please suggest me such ship and loadout (hopefully a Matar one). ... what? CNR, althou it isn't matari ------- sorry for any misspelling or type errors (actualy i am dyslectic... so i wont apologise)

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