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Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:01:00 - [1] I've never really been ineterested in the topic however I'd like ot know abit about why EVE lags in major sausage fests. I know that 1000 players in a fight will lag but just why. I'f I'm correct the requirments for playing EVE is to have an internet connection of at least 28.5kps modem or whatever so I doubt it is server side. Or? If there is an official post on the matter please redirect me, thanks. Pwnage PvP Recruitment \m/ Metal Head \m/
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:06:00 - [2] i honestly wanted to answer sensibly, but your sig was so ******* repulsive i couldn't concentrate long enough to read your post. sorry.
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:07:00 - [3] biggest source of lag IMO is the client and UI. The UI causes such a huge hit to performance that the littlest thing can cause the client to lag up. Recruiting Terrorists
Dungheap Caldari Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:07:00 - [4] Edited by: Dungheap on 14/05/2007 13:56:27 err.. cuz of double posting on the forums and sucking up all the bandwidth?
Freya Selene Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:12:00 - [5] Most is server sided. For example if you have a fleet of 100 man who jumps into a new system. During uncloak the servernode on witch the system runs (per node you have a few systems i can only assume) has to recalculate all gang bonuses per person and send this back to all clients. As well if there is an enemy fleet waiting, this information has to be send to every member of the fleet that just jumped in. Not to mention what happends if all 200 (100 man each side) launches 5 drones each..... Lag is caused by the waittime untill you recieve all information needed to show everything on your screen. Freya is a goddess of love and fertility, and the most beautiful and propitious of the goddesses.
Thommy	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:13:00 - [6] 1000 players in a fight This means player 1 has to recieve location, any effects (guns/web/jam/ecm etc) from all the other players. The same for all the other 999 players which means there is a continues stream of 999 other players updated positions / actions send to your client. Eve client can only handle 1 thing at a time so it works off player per player which means the more players there are the longer it takes. It is an accumulateing effect that gets stronger and stronger for each new player / effect ariving in the combat zone. In this case it can be: - server side (to much to process at once). - connection related (to little bandwidth for to much data at once). - client side related (to many little details to process which prevents the client from being ready at the next update cycle aka freeze). Guide to fix eve problems. Cleanup your cache with my cache tool
Ashermoor Caldari Royal Manticoran Navy	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:16:00 - [7] i had yesterday almost same problem, i docked into JITA station i need buy 4 items , it tooks about 25 minutes Shocked and when i want to undock it was imposible i push undock buttoooooon and 45minutes black screen. Try restart nothing, so yesterday i played EVE in black screen mod - probably some new feature for HW performance Twisted Evil snip Signiture is not eve related - hutch
Alakazam Bob The Builder Breidablik	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:20:00 - [8] Originally by: Kaeten I've never really been ineterested in the topic however I'd like ot know abit about why EVE lags in major sausage fests. I know that 1000 players in a fight will lag but just why. I'f I'm correct the requirments for playing EVE is to have an internet connection of at least 28.5kps modem or whatever so I doubt it is server side. Or? If there is an official post on the matter please redirect me, thanks. Actually! That's a very good question. I'd like to read what CCP thinks about this. I think their current architecture could give some explanations to why it lags. But it's difficult to talk about lag without classifying the different types of lag that exist in the game and understanding that. But currently I think it is related to how the current architecture handles sending data to multiple clients simultaneusly. Remember it's a multi player game, so not only does it need to seend a burst of data when you meet your oponents containing information about their ships/structures etc but it needs to do this as the universe/grid evolves during this meeting (adding structures/ships/removing them) and it also needs to update your client at a sensible rate. Is this done async'd or synchronized? So many questions, so many different solutions! I think this is something CCP discusses every day---they must have access to some of the best resources in this area:)
Freya Selene Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:32:00 - [9] Originally by: Ashermoor i had yesterday almost same problem, i docked into JITA station i need buy 4 items , it tooks about 25 minutes Shocked and when i want to undock it was imposible i push undock buttoooooon and 45minutes black screen. Try restart nothing, so yesterday i played EVE in black screen mod - probably some new feature for HW performance Twisted Evil Sounds more client based, as in your system unable to work trough the data. With this a package of data in a loophole, that could explain your 45min delay. In early days of Eve i ran on a P4, 2.4Mhz a not to top of the notch client. I had alot of freezes and lag issues untill i bought a bether graphic card and updated all drivers (strange anough, audio driver gave best gain!!). As well changing the WinXP swapfile (cant remember to what). Seems if you ran 2Gb memory the client went mofo. Running one client where a disaster, while running two clients it where rather steady. Nowadays i run on Intel Core2Duo rather tweaked, Nvidia 7600 video and 2Gb mem (fast) and it runs like mad. No problem in handeling 2 clients widescreen (1440x900?). gotha say tho iam using 2x 76Gb high rpm SATA300 drives in RAID-0 configuration as main drive where Eve is installed. Freya is a goddess of love and fertility, and the most beautiful and propitious of the goddesses.
darklegionca Caldari Blood Eagle Federation Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:41:00 - [10] eve lags because you touch yourself ------------------------------------ darklegionca - One name. One legend.
Daniella Althera	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:54:00 - [11] EVE lags... ...on client side because of shoddy patch-style coding. Requires client rewrite which apparently is coming. ...on server side for various reasons which have been discussed among other places a lot on kugutsumen.com's Tech Support Haus subforum by both enthutiasists and professionals.
WhitePhantom Gallente Edenists	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:56:00 - [12] Originally by: Kaeten I've never really been ineterested in the topic however I'd like ot know abit about why EVE lags in major sausage fests. I know that 1000 players in a fight will lag but just why. I'f I'm correct the requirments for playing EVE is to have an internet connection of at least 28.5kps modem or whatever so I doubt it is server side. Or? If there is an official post on the matter please redirect me, thanks. The internet will always have lag, as long as there is data larger then the speed of said internet. Unless we come up with a solution to that problem, then we will always have "download times" which can be connected to lag. Sort of like the "What came first the chicken or the egg?" question
sallyr Gallente Mithril Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.14 13:01:00 - [13] you know i havent actualy played a mmo that hasnt lagged at some point, eve for the most part is one of the better ones. but when it does lag, it goes SO **** up that its just not funny! anyone remember the invisable fleet phaze? Resistance is Futile
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.05.14 13:02:00 - [14] If I understand it right, if you have n people in one area, each person arriving needs to receive data from the other n-1 people, such as speed, position, effects. If a n+1th person arrives, then he has to receive n chunks of data, but the other people only need to download one more chunk of data each. So if I'm right (which I'm probably not), then the amount of latency will be proportional to [(n-1)!+n] in a group of n people. That's worse than exponential (which is bad). I know nothing about computers though, so feel free to correct me. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Beer is my religion. Guinness is my God.
Pewpewdude	Posted - 2007.05.14 13:03:00 - [15] Originally by: darklegionca eve lags because you touch yourself testify!
darklegionca Caldari Blood Eagle Federation Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2007.05.14 13:11:00 - [16] Edited by: darklegionca on 14/05/2007 13:10:22 Originally by: Pewpewdude Originally by: darklegionca eve lags because you touch yourself testify! well no one else was going to tell him the actual truth so i had to slam the cold hard fact right in his face ------------------------------------ darklegionca - One name. One legend.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2007.05.14 13:15:00 - [17] Lag? Help me help you .

Ashermoor Caldari Royal Manticoran Navy	Posted - 2007.05.14 13:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Freya Selene Originally by: Ashermoor i had yesterday almost same problem, i docked into JITA station i need buy 4 items , it tooks about 25 minutes Shocked and when i want to undock it was imposible i push undock buttoooooon and 45minutes black screen. Try restart nothing, so yesterday i played EVE in black screen mod - probably some new feature for HW performance Twisted Evil Sounds more client based, as in your system unable to work trough the data. With this a package of data in a loophole, that could explain your 45min delay. In early days of Eve i ran on a P4, 2.4Mhz a not to top of the notch client. I had alot of freezes and lag issues untill i bought a bether graphic card and updated all drivers (strange anough, audio driver gave best gain!!). As well changing the WinXP swapfile (cant remember to what). Seems if you ran 2Gb memory the client went mofo. Running one client where a disaster, while running two clients it where rather steady. Nowadays i run on Intel Core2Duo rather tweaked, Nvidia 7600 video and 2Gb mem (fast) and it runs like mad. No problem in handeling 2 clients widescreen (1440x900?). gotha say tho iam using 2x 76Gb high rpm SATA300 drives in RAID-0 configuration as main drive where Eve is installed. Strange that i had never such problems before, PC is not bad AMD3200+, 2GBs dual, 10kround SATA hdd,PX7600GT is not supreme graphic but still running EvE about 60-80fps with no problem....running only one client. Internet connection was ok i tested during waiting if i can surf web with no problems.... So i hope it was only some "sun disturbance upset" snip Signiture is not eve related - hutch
Noluck Ned FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.14 13:42:00 - [19] one word: Eistein. Him and his stupid theory of relativity, if only they had never allowed him to put a speed limit on light. The spoilsport. F4T4L Recruitment
Solbright	Posted - 2007.05.14 13:44:00 - [20] Well, I guess I'm obliged to post here ... Lag happens, true. But is it lag that you are concerned about? If you are refering to the display freezing up for short periods making it hard to click on objects and bring up menus and so on, then your concern is not with lag.
Kassandra Tillman	Posted - 2007.05.15 13:55:00 - [21] Originally by: Kaeten I've never really been ineterested in the topic however I'd like ot know abit about why EVE lags in major sausage fests. I know that 1000 players in a fight will lag but just why. I'f I'm correct the requirments for playing EVE is to have an internet connection of at least 28.5kps modem or whatever so I doubt it is server side. Or? If there is an official post on the matter please redirect me, thanks. the majority of the game has no lag, but big fights and of course jita can get silly lag
Adaris Dark and Light inc.	Posted - 2007.05.15 15:41:00 - [22] Originally by: Freya Selene Most is server sided. For example if you have a fleet of 100 man who jumps into a new system. During uncloak the servernode on witch the system runs (per node you have a few systems i can only assume) has to recalculate all gang bonuses per person and send this back to all clients. As well if there is an enemy fleet waiting, this information has to be send to every member of the fleet that just jumped in. Not to mention what happends if all 200 (100 man each side) launches 5 drones each..... Lag is caused by the waittime untill you recieve all information needed to show everything on your screen. So it specifically a hardware problem (if I read that right)... am I a little innocent to dare ask: a) can they get better nodes/pcs? b) would it be a tremendous strain if they overhaul the node system so they could devise a new better system now that the game has a much bigger playerbase than the original beta days when they made that system * * * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euZ0j7vtKEQ
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.05.15 16:59:00 - [23] @Kaeten> Wheren't you the guy that have this damn funny pic as a signature with a hamster on a toy ship saying "Realz piwate have hamsters" or not ? I prefered this sig :) EvE lags because of many factors, I can't be solved by just saying "hey look, we'll get 46431 TBps to all players and that'll be okay". There's client lag, server lag, "the guys playing from Kujuak" lag, market lag, objet lag and the mysterious and shamed database lag. I forgot the python lag (hmm, let's have an interpreter language for online games, because, err, i don't know any other languages), the blob lag, the mean net lag, the lag who stays on the server because well you don't know, the ennemizzareherezomglag, the beer lag AND the node lag. Oh. We have also the pos lag, the model lag, the sound lag, the effect lag, the TeamSpeak that eat all your bandwidth lag, the phone lag... (3 hours later) ...the guysareblobingasystemyoudon'tknowwhereitisbutisonthesamenode lag, the game architecture lag, the login lag, the ratlag, the damnidon'tpayedmyinternetbill lag, the Jita lag... etc etc ----- History is made by whinners Originally by: DB Preacher (...) Ignore what the coalition muppets are saying on their forums (...)
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.15 17:00:00 - [24] Eve lags because your screen doesnt update at least 25 pictures per second. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.05.15 17:05:00 - [25] Originally by: Adaris (...) Damn your posted youtube in your sig is funny as hell :) ----- History is made by whinners Originally by: DB Preacher (...) Ignore what the coalition muppets are saying on their forums (...)
Solbright	Posted - 2007.05.15 22:19:00 - [26] Originally by: Jim McGregor Eve lags because your screen doesnt update at least 25 pictures per second. That's a symptom not a cause. And what's more, it's not a symptom of lag. It's the one sure symptom that says lag is not the problem.
MissileRus	Posted - 2007.05.15 23:51:00 - [27] id say its the monitors fault! now has excuse to get a 22" widescreen --------------------------- 4. i like pizza
Alpha Prime Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.15 23:55:00 - [28] EVE will not survive 1 more year if this keeps up. CCP gives us ships to support epic huge fights, but the hardware cant handle it. Sad really, cuz its a nice game Bob farted, ASCN burped. And then there was a Nodecrash
Solbright	Posted - 2007.05.16 00:12:00 - [29] Edited by: Solbright on 16/05/2007 00:12:49 Originally by: Alpha Prime CCP gives us ships to support epic huge fights, but the hardware cant handle it. What hardware do you mean? I'd be inclined to say it's the software with the problem, not the hardware. There is more than enough hardware resources at both ends.
Callthetruth Caldari Logical Logtistics	Posted - 2007.05.16 00:37:00 - [30] 256k miniumu id recommend
Erichk Knaar Caldari Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2007.05.16 01:17:00 - [31] Originally by: ReaperOfSly If I understand it right, if you have n people in one area, each person arriving needs to receive data from the other n-1 people, such as speed, position, effects. If a n+1th person arrives, then he has to receive n chunks of data, but the other people only need to download one more chunk of data each. So if I'm right (which I'm probably not), then the amount of latency will be proportional to [(n-1)!+n] in a group of n people. That's worse than exponential (which is bad). I know nothing about computers though, so feel free to correct me. Conceptually, this is pretty much spot on... Hi Reaper o7...
Solbright	Posted - 2007.05.16 02:03:00 - [32] Edited by: Solbright on 16/05/2007 02:10:01 That would be a good cause of lag if Eve was saturating network bandwidth but since that is not the case you need to look elsewhere for the cause.
Solbright	Posted - 2007.05.16 03:09:00 - [33] I was hoping Kaeten (The Op) would clarify his question by providing a list of symptoms. In the absence of symptoms we are left with just "lag". The term lag has been used in Eve to refer to two types of problems so it's hard to determine what concerned him the most.
Svengali MASS	Posted - 2007.05.16 08:50:00 - [34] Its just O(N^2) for the communication. Still a big number, but not nearly O(N!). However, thats only the naive implementation. And, thats only for the server's out queue. Any particular player only needs O(N) info. We can cut that down a lot with a little work. The targets you have selected could have high frequency, high detail updates, while other ships could use slower updates. Additionally, overview filters could cut down even further on the updates. Any action directly effecting you would get high priority. Being targeted, recieving damage, being webbed etc. -- Svengali
Callthetruth Caldari Logical Logtistics	Posted - 2007.05.16 08:53:00 - [35] grids are meant to reduce this by only those on youre grid having high priority ( hence fleet battles are laggy and cluttered missions) that said there are other issues atm affecting eve
Nemotal	Posted - 2007.05.16 09:02:00 - [36] It's pythons fault, the amount of processing that python has to do before you even start doing the work.. is ridiculous. They could probably solve a lot of the problems by simply targeting certain routines, going in + replacing the functionality with a C (or whatever is your chosen poison) python module. Sure it would take time, but when you have an interpreter running over each command you issue, it's gonna slow it down quite significantly, figuring out what the command is, where it's meant to go.. interfacing with all pythons internal workings etc. So to surmise, Python is great for development time.. really not great for performance. You don't see any OS being written in python do you? Bad CCP, bad!
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.05.16 09:12:00 - [37] Edited by: Cheyenne Shadowborn on 16/05/2007 09:10:05 Originally by: Kaeten I've never really been ineterested in the topic however I'd like ot know abit about why EVE lags in major sausage fests. I know that 1000 players in a fight will lag but just why. I'f I'm correct the requirments for playing EVE is to have an internet connection of at least 28.5kps modem or whatever so I doubt it is server side. Or? If there is an official post on the matter please redirect me, thanks. You can have all the throughput in the world, 28 kbps modem or the fattest line on the planet but you can't eliminate LATENCY. Which is technically the speed of light, plus the time all the network switches from your location to the CCP server add for switching your network packets. Ping a server and watch the response time in milliseconds and you'll see that in action - times two, because the client needs updates from the server and vice versa. Then, 1000 people in one system means 1000 people on one node (because Eve doesn't seem to scale all that well), which I understand to be one computer. Meaning one computer being busy with all server-side calculations. There's a certain limit to scaling, even multiple CPUs on that one node won't help you that much unless you have very specific situations in your code and written darn good code. So CPU cycles are another limit. Doubling the amount of players in a system doesn't only double your calculations but its more like rising exponentially. The obvious thing would be to make Eve more scalable by lowering the granularity so that one (or more) grids can run on one node, but I guess that'd be a major rewrite, and it still wouldn't help all that much because most blobs happen in the same grid. Hence CCP's desire to ***** down on blow warfare. But the main reason for lag of course was your darn Domi ganking my poor Ferox eight months ago. The echoes of this are still causing ripples in the fabric of the Eve servers, causing bad lag. Its all your fault really. Re-balancing my wallet with ISK should help against this lag bubble that surrounds you, although for very arcane and technical reasons that I can't explain here really. -- CCP: PLEASE fix the forum software - thanks.
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.05.16 09:18:00 - [38] Originally by: Nemotal It's pythons fault, the amount of processing that python has to do before you even start doing the work.. is ridiculous. Doesn't stateless python (which they use) address most of that? Maybe not the time to load the interpretter (which should not be an issue because its not like its starting up and terminating all the time, prolly only does that at downtime for a node) but it makes context switches for threading really fast if done right. Overhead compared to C code should not be as bad as it originally sounds. Ofc after having seen the client, the "if done right" part is what scares me when it comes to CCP. They also said they'd convert more time critical stuff to C. -- CCP: PLEASE fix the forum software - thanks.
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.05.16 09:28:00 - [39] Originally by: Alakazam a sensible rate. Is this done async'd or synchronized? I sure hope its async. I like to think that my l33t latency-reducing DSL-modem-buffer-overflow-preventing packet-prioritizing OpenBSD firewall setup gives me some small edge in PvP. It sure does in BF2142. (Great, now someone will prolly petition me for an exploit by optimizing my side of the network lol). -- CCP: PLEASE fix the forum software - thanks.
Nemotal	Posted - 2007.05.16 10:05:00 - [40] Edited by: Nemotal on 16/05/2007 10:03:22 Doesn't stateless python (which they use) address most of that? Maybe not the time to load the interpretter (which should not be an issue because its not like its starting up and terminating all the time, prolly only does that at downtime for a node) but it makes context switches for threading really fast if done right. Overhead compared to C code should not be as bad as it originally sounds. Ofc after having seen the client, the "if done right" part is what scares me when it comes to CCP. They also said they'd convert more time critical stuff to C. Well.. the python is first gonna be compiled into python bytecode, which is then ran through the interpreter. So the interpreter is always being used, not a case of loading it up or anything like that.. it's just always there in the background. For example if you do a simple task in Python like add two integers together, what actually happens is that the interpreter will first locate the value of those integers by indexing into a dictionary (I think it's a dict object at least), once it's found them it will then proceed to call a C function which will actually add them together and return the results. The point isn't that Python isn't good at this, but the real problem is when you're trying to obtain a level of performance which EVE is now finding it needs you can't have these unnecessary and wasteful calls being made. It's not built for performance, it's a tool for fast deployment and simplified development, if CCP want performance they need to get rid of the lead weight in their shoes. They don't have to do it for all the code, just target and replace a few 'choice' areas of code. It is, as they say, the wrong tool for the job.
Weaponmaster	Posted - 2007.05.16 11:07:00 - [41] Originally by: ReaperOfSly If I understand it right, if you have n people in one area, each person arriving needs to receive data from the other n-1 people, such as speed, position, effects. If a n+1th person arrives, then he has to receive n chunks of data, but the other people only need to download one more chunk of data each. So if I'm right (which I'm probably not), then the amount of latency will be proportional to [(n-1)!+n] in a group of n people. That's worse than exponential (which is bad). I know nothing about computers though, so feel free to correct me. I don't know either, but this is what I thought. It seems to be true because when you warp in, or jump on a big camp, it takes forever to load, but to the enemy, everything is running smooth.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.05.16 13:11:00 - [42] Originally by: Alpha Prime EVE will not survive 1 more year if this keeps up. CCP gives us ships to support epic huge fights, but the hardware cant handle it. Sad really, cuz its a nice game Don't be silly. Over three-quarters of the player base couldn't give a rat's knackers about huge fights. The only people affected by that particular lag issue are the small minority of die-hard 0.0 occupants. Most people are in Empire and most of them are happy to fly on their own fighting NPCs. The only PvP they do is through the markets and by their nature markets can be made lag free quite easily. Empire does have some lag issues but they can be resolved through game mechanics (allowing LPs to be corp based instead of agent based would help a lot). I hope that CCP can resolve the epic fight lag issues for the 0.0 crowd because it's nice to have them playing in the background but Eve will not die just because they can't stage 500v500 fights. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] *This is not* a signature**
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.05.16 13:13:00 - [43] Originally by: Nemotal It's pythons fault, the amount of processing that python has to do before you even start doing the work.. is ridiculous. They could probably solve a lot of the problems by simply targeting certain routines, going in + replacing the functionality with a C (or whatever is your chosen poison) python module. Sure it would take time, but when you have an interpreter running over each command you issue, it's gonna slow it down quite significantly, figuring out what the command is, where it's meant to go.. interfacing with all pythons internal workings etc. So to surmise, Python is great for development time.. really not great for performance. You don't see any OS being written in python do you? Bad CCP, bad! That's exactly what they are doing. It's actually a neat way to work and overall CCP have done quite nicely with it. Remember that it's always easiest to point the finger after the fact. No-one knows what Eve would be like (or even if it would exist) if CCP had coded it all in C++. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] *This is not* a signature**
Xeen DuWang Hell's Horsemen Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.16 14:02:00 - [44] One thing that can be done... Make the client fraken huge. There is no need to send all the data back and forth with the server. Just a couple bits per player is all thats needed. example: Player A enters system. Dominix BS; 1 Heavy Nos I; 1 x6 Berserker II; 1 x10 1600mm rolled tungsten; 1 x2 etc. Dont get me wrong, Im no code guru, but personally if the client was 5G instead of 625M I wouldnt care. Let our comps handle that. Most computers now can handle that without a problem. Correct me if Im wrong. Hell's Horsemen
Nemotal	Posted - 2007.05.16 21:31:00 - [45] Originally by: Xeen DuWang Correct me if Im wrong. k, you probably are .. doubt they send much data at all. These are not the droids you're looking for
Solbright alt	Posted - 2007.05.16 23:23:00 - [46] That's correct, network traffic is minimal. You just have to watch it for a bit to realise there is no problems there. After all, dialup works fine.
Solbright alt	Posted - 2007.05.16 23:35:00 - [47] Actually, lag isn't really a problem these days, unless you happen to be running missions around the Motsu area. Everywhere else has been running sweet. Take Jita for example. I fly through there regularly, including docking at 4-4, with no hassles at all. Actually never noticed lag in Jita. However, framerate does take a dive when there is lots of ships visible but that's not a lag issue. As for warp-ins, again, lag is almost non-existent unless it's a really big collection of objects but even then it's short. This is where another effect hits. You will have a frozen display. This is inherently not lag. Lag is network related. The display is the client's responsibility.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.05.16 23:57:00 - [48] Edited by: Siege on 16/05/2007 23:59:19 So, to paraphrase for the non tech-saavy out there. It's not an issue of internet connection speed. It's mostly an issue of the large amount of calculations that need to be made per player. Things such as your skills bonus, fleet bonus, range to X, transversal speeds, mail, your velocity and direction, location in space, the list probably has hundreds of individual values that must be re-calculated many times per second, per player, by the computers in Iceland. Missles, drones, NPC's, they have a lot of this data too, as does every item in space down to dust clouds, asteroids, corpses and everything else. Then all this information needs to be transmitted to the players, while also interpreted by the server. The more players you add in, the more data needs to be processed. After a point, the CPU's aren't done with one piece before the next one needs to be done. So things start to back up a bit. Then more stuff is piled on top of that, and the waiting list starts to grow. This is the server lag, basically. The drone reduction, removal of instas, changes in missions, the RAMSAN drives, are all efforts to reduce this component of lag. Now, this is different than performance issues at your OWN computer. Your computer is handling the graphics, UI filtering, and display of everything, while processing all your input as well as the data coming from Iceland. The graphics engine is pretty old, and not the fastest. It does a lot of its processing on the main CPU, not the graphics card, so that slows things down a LOT when things get complicated as it really increases the load on your computer. The new graphics engine is hopefully going to give this area of lag a nasty hit as well. Generally, these two MAIN sources of lag occur at the same time, for the same reason, and it just compounds the problem. Too much data for the server node to process, too much data for your own CPU to process, so everything just gets lagged out. Jumping into fleet battles or busy systems is made even worse because everything has to get sent to you in one massive block of information, the more there is the longer it takes. Warping to a POS, undocking in Jita, jumping through a gate are all times this happens. But people who are already there only need to get the data updated as newer info is created, so they don't get those big dead times of lag.
Solbright alt	Posted - 2007.05.17 00:20:00 - [49] Originally by: Siege Generally, these two MAIN sources of lag occur at the same time, for the same reason, and it just compounds the problem. Too much data for the server node to process, too much data for your own CPU to process, so everything just gets lagged out. They are separate events at separate times. Lag can and does happen without stutter. Stutter can and does happen without Lag. Lag even reduces subsequent stutter (in case of warp-ins/jump-ins). Quote: Jumping into fleet battles or busy systems is made even worse because everything has to get sent to you in one massive block of information, the more there is the longer it takes. I'm not so sure about this. It might just be the server causing lag. That's a good optimisation line to take though. On these session changing situations have the client immediately using what it has already received. It gives us a minimal display atleast. This might already be how it's done though. Not sure. Stutter gets in the way too much to know for sure.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.05.17 00:29:00 - [50] Originally by: Solbright alt Originally by: Siege Generally, these two MAIN sources of lag occur at the same time, for the same reason, and it just compounds the problem. Too much data for the server node to process, too much data for your own CPU to process, so everything just gets lagged out. They are separate events at separate times. Lag can and does happen without stutter. Stutter can and does happen without Lag. Lag even reduces subsequent stutter (in case of warp-ins/jump-ins). Quote: Jumping into fleet battles or busy systems is made even worse because everything has to get sent to you in one massive block of information, the more there is the longer it takes. I'm not so sure about this. It might just be the server causing lag. That's a good optimisation line to take though. On these session changing situations have the client immediately using what it has already received. It gives us a minimal display atleast. This might already be how it's done though. Not sure. Stutter gets in the way too much to know for sure. True, the lag and stutter, to be consistant with terms, are different issues that can occur independantly. But in the worst situations such as fleet battles and Jita 4-4 on a Sunday, you are getting both of them at the same time, giving the worst experience from a player standpoint. As to the session changes, I may have been a bit off in that. But when you jump through a gate on your own, and it has 100+ ships already on the other side, your client needs to populate all that data from a dead stop as well a graphically process and display everything, where the ships sitting there waiting only have to add one more to the list. But I can see where server side lag might also play a part there too, especially if you've got large stagnant groups of players as well as a big blob jumping in at the same time. All depends on the specific situation I guess.
Solbright alt	Posted - 2007.05.17 07:43:00 - [51] Originally by: Siege But in the worst situations such as fleet battles and Jita 4-4 on a Sunday, you are getting both of them at the same time, giving the worst experience from a player standpoint. Not quite. In the bigger situations like that it's a one-two punch. Lag first, followed by stutter. Also, the more lag there is the less stutter you'll end up with. Or, to put it another way, if tranquility is keeping up then you'll get slammed with a big dose of stutter. Quote: As to the session changes, I may have been a bit off in that. But when you jump through a gate on your own, and it has 100+ ships already on the other side, your client needs to populate all that data from a dead stop as well a graphically process and display everything, where the ships sitting there waiting only have to add one more to the list. Yup, the new arrival suffers the most with this one alright. Stutter is the big killer here though, all the action overloads the client. Particularly the primary target. When I refered to the server causing the lag, that was in reference to floating in empty space after the jump. Ie: Grid not loaded for the client.

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