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Why is the Falcon's recon bonus gimped vs other recons?

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Rylet VanDorn Pastafarians Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.05.24 17:12:00 - [1] As someone who is looking into getting a T2 cruiser sometime in the future, I was comparing the differences between the recons. In doing so, i noticed a glaring difference between the Fleet and Force recon bonuses. Namely, the Falcon's bonuses are gimped compared to other recons. For all the Recon ships, all of the cruiser skill bonuses are identical between force and fleet recons, so this is balanced. Every fleet recon gives up one of it's recon ship bonuses to allow for the CPU reduction for the CovOps cloak. This is also balanced. The Falcon, however, is the ONLY fleet recon that not only gives up one of it's recon ship bonuses, but also has it's only remaining recon ship bonus reduced from it's force recon counterpart. Example: Curse: 40% bonus Vamp/Neut Range + 20% bonus Vamp/Neut amount. Pilgrim: 20% bonus to vamp/neut amount + CovOps Cloak. Loss: 40% vamp/neut range bonus. --------------------------------------- Lachesis: 20% bonus scram range + 5% Missile ROF bonus (btw, wtf? Missile bonus on gallente recon?) Arazu: 20% bonus scram range + CovOps cloak. Loss: 5% missile ROF bonus. -------------------------------------- Huginn: 60% bonus web range + 5% missle ROF bonus Rapier: 60% bonus web range + CovOps Cloak Loss: 5% missile ROF bonus. ------------------------------------- Rook: 20% bonus ECM strength + 5% kinetic missile damage (yay for more crappy caldari bonuses) Falcon: 10% Bonus ECM Strength + CovOps Cloak Loss: 5% Kinetic Damage Bonus AND 10% ECM STRENGTH /lvl (half the bonus) What's up with this? Why do Caldari once again get the shaft? ECM strength isn't a concern anymore since the ECM nerf, so I can only guess this nerfed ship is a throwback from when ECM was actually powerful enough to be used.
Scorpyon Kings of Kill EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.05.24 17:15:00 - [2] Hmmm, does seem weird. Maybe it's a typo??? Don't really know though. Maybe somebody w/ experience flying them can chime in. Scorp
xenodia Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.05.24 17:20:00 - [3] Originally by: Rylet VanDorn As someone who is looking into getting a T2 cruiser sometime in the future, I was comparing the differences between the recons. In doing so, i noticed a glaring difference between the Fleet and Force recon bonuses. The Falcon, however, is the ONLY fleet recon that not only gives up one of it's recon ship bonuses, but also has it's only remaining recon ship bonus reduced from it's force recon counterpart. . 1) Its Combat Recons and Force Recons. Not Force and Fleet 2) The Falcon is a Force recon 3) Are you actually looking at this in-game ? Because there are typos in the item database. I know for a fact as of fairly recently the Arazu and Lachesis showed only 10% bonus to warp scramble range per level in the item database, but in-game it correctly shows 20%.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.05.24 17:58:00 - [4] It's a fact, falcon only gets 10%/lvl. So, CCP, fix?
Christopher Dalran Gallente Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.24 18:04:00 - [5] Gallente pilot here Exchange the 40% vamp/neut range bonus with a bonus to projectile ROF and we'll talk. D ------------------------------- C.D's Formula for success ------------------------------- Credit Card = Game Time Card Gametime Card = ISK Therefore Credit Card = ISK.
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.05.24 18:06:00 - [6] Originally by: Christopher Dalran Gallente pilot here Exchange the 40% vamp/neut range bonus with a bonus to projectile ROF and we'll talk. D WTF does that have to do with the falcon?
Rylet VanDorn Pastafarians Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.05.24 18:10:00 - [7] Originally by: xenodia 1) Its Combat Recons and Force Recons. Not Force and Fleet 2) The Falcon is a Force recon 3) Are you actually looking at this in-game ? Because there are typos in the item database. I know for a fact as of fairly recently the Arazu and Lachesis showed only 10% bonus to warp scramble range per level in the item database, but in-game it correctly shows 20%. Lol hold on while I go on a mad dash through the post replacing these. Can you tell I've been looking at command ships too? = P
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.05.24 18:12:00 - [8] Originally by: Morreia Originally by: Christopher Dalran Gallente pilot here Exchange the 40% vamp/neut range bonus with a bonus to projectile ROF and we'll talk. D WTF does that have to do with the falcon? he has been taking to many boosters. that post makes no sense whatsoever.
Rylet VanDorn Pastafarians Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.05.24 18:18:00 - [9] Originally by: Audri Fisher Originally by: Morreia Originally by: Christopher Dalran Gallente pilot here Exchange the 40% vamp/neut range bonus with a bonus to projectile ROF and we'll talk. D WTF does that have to do with the falcon? he has been taking to many boosters. that post makes no sense whatsoever. Not to mention the 40% vamp/neut is an Amarr bonus, and projectiles are intended to be Minmatar weaps (despite Amarr fitting autos instead)
Alexander Knott Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.24 18:56:00 - [10] Also, the DPS output of the Falcon compared to the other force recons is really pathetic. No drone bay and no damage bonus hurt it a lot. Maybe lose the range bonus for a damage bonus and do something with the high slots? ----- "I like to loot, especially going to the can of the battleship, sometimes there is a surprise inside, sometimes there is only carp..."
Waxau Amarr Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.05.24 19:00:00 - [11] Originally by: Alexander Knott Also, the DPS output of the Falcon compared to the other force recons is really pathetic. No drone bay and no damage bonus hurt it a lot. Maybe lose the range bonus for a damage bonus and do something with the high slots? Tbh its fine how it is. I would love our bonus to be on par with others, but we do a unique role, and the bonuses should ONLY be boosted, not changed in any form. We have amarr as the damage dealers/solo. We have the minnie has 2nd highest damage/solo ability joint with the gallente, and then caldari being pure gang orientated. I like it.
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.24 19:23:00 - [12] You can look at it from another perspective too if you want. All recons get cool unique bonuses compared to their t1 version, nos amount, scramble range, web range. So what cool bonus do the falcon get compared to the blackbird? ECM cap usage... I am not saying he falcon is a bad ship but it definitively drew the short stick in the ECM nerf. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.24 20:49:00 - [13] Edited by: Aramendel on 24/05/2007 20:51:44 The reason for the weaker EW boni of the falcon is due to its high specialisation. It's total focus on ECM allows for interesting tactics. It can decloak, lock, activate jammers and recloak right afterwards. It will basically with the decloak lag blink in for 5 secs and then blink out for 15 secs and repeat. This makes it rather difficult to call primary. If it had the same EW strength as the Rook there would be no point at all to fly the rook anymore. The dps bonus is a very VERY poor trade for the survival bonus of a cloak, especially for a ship which gets primaried regulary. The other force recons cannot pull off this "blinking" because they have a cycle time of only 5-10 secs with their EW modules.
Lance Hawke Beyond Divinity Inc Blind Beavers	Posted - 2007.05.24 20:57:00 - [14] cause caldari are *** lol
JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.05.24 20:59:00 - [15] Edited by: JamnOne on 24/05/2007 20:58:07 Because it was made by a different race. A race that is slowly learning how to build a good recon ship. Not all races are created equal and neither are there ships.
Christopher Dalran Gallente Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.24 21:24:00 - [16] Just checking to see if people still respond to crazy. ------------------------------- C.D's Formula for success ------------------------------- Credit Card = Game Time Card Gametime Card = ISK Therefore Credit Card = ISK.
Marduk Felzhen	Posted - 2007.05.24 22:17:00 - [17] Originally by: JamnOne Edited by: JamnOne on 24/05/2007 20:58:07 Because it was made by a different race. A race that is slowly learning how to build a good recon ship. Not all races are created equal and neither are there ships. If thats the case, amarr should be pwning minmatar ships all the time
Rylet VanDorn Pastafarians Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.05.24 22:20:00 - [18] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 24/05/2007 20:51:44 The reason for the weaker EW boni of the falcon is due to its high specialisation. It's total focus on ECM allows for interesting tactics. It can decloak, lock, activate jammers and recloak right afterwards. It will basically with the decloak lag blink in for 5 secs and then blink out for 15 secs and repeat. This makes it rather difficult to call primary. The other force recons cannot pull off this "blinking" because they have a cycle time of only 5-10 secs with their EW modules. The ability to blink in/out is reliant on the DURATION of ECM. Not the strength (ie, chance to be effective). This doesn't explain why the Falcon should have have a recon ship bonus that's half as strong as the Rook, when NO OTHER FORCE RECON is like this. Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 24/05/2007 20:51:44If it had the same EW strength as the Rook there would be no point at all to fly the rook anymore. The dps bonus is a very VERY poor trade for the survival bonus of a cloak, especially for a ship which gets primaried regulary. The difference between the Falcon and Rook are MUCH more significant than just the bonuses. Aside from that, the rook has: 7.5% more Kinetic shield resist 10% more Thermal shield resist 2 more highs (6 vs 4) 1 less low (2 vs 3) 3 more launcher hardpoints 100 more cpu than falcon, but 100 less powergrid (which makes no sense since ECM is CPU hungry, but the rook has more weapon mounts which are powergrid hungry) 30k more targeting range 59mm more scan resolution (over 20% more) 10 m/sec faster 7 meter smaller sig res. I hardly think giving the Falcon the same ECM bonus the Rook enjoys will make the Rook any less popular. Originally by: JamnOne Edited by: JamnOne on 24/05/2007 20:58:07 Because it was made by a different race. A race that is slowly learning how to build a good recon ship. Not all races are created equal and neither are there ships. Ehm... is that why the Amarr, the "oldest" race in the game, are stuck in the stone age in terms of ship bonuses and weapons systems? PS: Boost Amarr. Also, I'd like to point out that Recons are technically new concepts in general, and Caldari are supposedly the best with fielding new concepts and bleeding-edge technology. Take a look at the Scorpion and Blackbird descriptions if you don't believe me. Additionally... they're not created equally. They use completely different weapons systems.
Ryle Caldari Righteous-Indignation Ghosts Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.24 22:27:00 - [19] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 24/05/2007 20:51:44 The reason for the weaker EW boni of the falcon is due to its high specialisation. It's total focus on ECM allows for interesting tactics. It can decloak, lock, activate jammers and recloak right afterwards. It will basically with the decloak lag blink in for 5 secs and then blink out for 15 secs and repeat. This makes it rather difficult to call primary. Unless I'm completely mistaken, can't you do this with an Arazu and Dampeners as well? ------------------------------- -If you're going through Hell... Keep going.-
One Percent Caldari Applied Eugenics	Posted - 2007.05.24 23:03:00 - [20] Even though the Falcon's reduced ECM strength compared to the Rook is total nonsense, it's the split highslot weapon layout that totally irritates me. Can we get 3 of the same weapon type? I don't even care if it's turrets or missles.. either would be an improvement. It's dps will still be crap but at least we can focus on one or the other. Also, I didn't have a problem with the reduced amount of ECM strength on the Falcon until the BB got the same bonus... totally lame. -
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.24 23:08:00 - [21] As it happens, I just realized this last night, and concluded that it has to be a silly neglection. Falcons don't benefit from the cloak any more than other races' force recons do from theirs. Vice versa, in fact, I would argue that one of c/o cloaks' primary benefit is to sneak up close within scrambling (gallente), webbing (minmatar) or nossing (amarr) range. Even though extended, all those are a lot shorter than ECM (140km optimal or thereabouts). In fact, one of the benefits of ECM is the ability to use it from a safe distance. Even though someone could argue that the cloak also aids in gaining that distance, that is not much of an asset really due to warping distances etc. And due to the Falcon's nature of working best at long ranges, it does not fill the same role the other recons do in their skirmish ability. To be able to scramble, it has to operate within unfavourable distance. For the other recons the cloak helps them get in their favoured shorter distance. Those are the primary reasons this inconsistency is rather baffling. The fact that Scorpions and Blackbirds often do the ECM job equally well for a lower investment in both skillpoints and ISK does not contribute to the Caldari recons' appeal. No T1 variants of other races' ships have the same specialty capabilities as their respective recons, yet Caldari are for some reason chained to such misery. For what consolidation it brings, at least the cloak provides for the element of surprise. Or, as I call it, the element of "hey we have a new primary target!" ---
Veryez	Posted - 2007.05.25 00:13:00 - [22] Originally by: Rylet VanDorn What's up with this? ECM strength isn't a concern anymore since the ECM nerf, so I can only guess this is a throwback from when ECM was actually powerful enough to be used. Bingo - when ECM was nerfed into uselessness, CCP decided that adding a small boost to ECM ships would allow them to still be flown. So all ECM ships got their bonuses doubled, no testing was done to see if this was the correct amount. Additionally the ability to add sig amps to boost ECM back up was botched. ECM ships that aren't named Rook, simply can perform their job correctly. Well it hasn't worked. ECM ships are being flown less and less, at least when using ECM as their primary weapon, since a 6xdampener Scorpion works far better than 6xECM. What should have happened is that the ECM ships should have been balanced such that at maximum skill a pilot should have a 50/50 chance of jamming a similar sized ship. Additionally a falcon should have the same bonus as a Rook (20% per level) and the Rook should have a 5% missile ROF bonus (forget this kinetic only stuff). Finally ECCM should have been reduced in strength by at least 80%. The fact that 1 ECCM module can negate 5 to 6 other modules is just wrong. But the rest of Eve is happy, and those who have Signal Dispersion 5 can just...
Hotshothotshot1	Posted - 2007.05.25 05:33:00 - [23] hmm i was getting into recons but as a caldari i just dont think if its worth it for me to train for a recon. I mean all the other races have super recons. Nossing, scrambling, dampening and webbing. All these things can stop a target from getting away or attacking. To stop someone from attacking jamming(caldari) would be the best. But its chance based. While the other ship just work every time. ok ok caldari ships can jam another ship from far away, but i cant jam a target to death from 100km. Even my missiles wont hit from that far. An Arazu can damp from 180km but also has bonus on warpdisruptor range. A rapier can web someone from over 30km and a curse can nos someone to death. so Amarr, Minmatar and Gallente all have abilities to stop someone from attacking or from fleeing, but the caldari get jamming(which doesnt even work all the time) this all seems pretty crappy to me. I so much rather train for recons of other races if i wasnt so damn lazy
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.25 08:20:00 - [24] Quote: What should have happened is that the ECM ships should have been balanced such that at maximum skill a pilot should have a 50/50 chance of jamming a similar sized ship. ECM does not need nerfing, thanks.
Iota Mordu RAND Corporation	Posted - 2007.05.25 08:34:00 - [25] Adjusting the Falcon to be in line with the Rook seems only fair to me.
Veryez	Posted - 2007.05.25 09:04:00 - [26] Originally by: Gypsio III ECM does not need nerfing, thanks. What I proposed would actually be a buff to the scorp and the falcon, no change to the blackbird and the rook and a nerf to the griffin....I wouldn't touch ECM, as it appears to be properly balanced for non-ecm ships. It's ECM ships that need some additional work now. Lastly ECCM modules need to be seriously toned down, they were balanced before the ECM nerf. Now they are grossly overpowered.
smallgreenblur Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.25 09:11:00 - [27] I think it's like that because a ship with ecm as powerful as the rook but that could also use covops cloaks would be a tad overpowered? Also I think you're missing half the bonuses those ships get. Can you post all of them? With many T2 ships some of their powerful bonuses come from the T1 skill. sgb
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.25 09:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Rylet VanDorn The ability to blink in/out is reliant on the DURATION of ECM. Not the strength (ie, chance to be effective). This doesn't explain why the Falcon should have have a recon ship bonus that's half as strong as the Rook, when NO OTHER FORCE RECON is like this. Of cource it is dependant on the duration of the ECM modules. The point is if it has equal strength there would be no real point to fly a rook. Quote: The difference between the Falcon and Rook are MUCH more significant than just the bonuses. Aside from that, the rook has:.. 100% of of what you are listing is the same for all force vs combat recons. It's already part of the tradeoff for a cloak. But in addition to the other force recons the falcon can use the cloak to "blink" on the battlefield which the other force recons cannot do efficiently due to their lower ycle time of their modules. The dps of the rook is while nice, rather meaningless compared to it's ECM strength. It's higher resistances are worth nothing if you get primaried. Again, if the falcon had the rooks strength only morons would fly the rook. The falcon is leaps and bounds more survivable and would have with the same bonus actually 11-17% MORE ECM strength due to it's additional low which allows to a 2nd-3rd SDA compared to the rook. Originally by: Ryle Unless I'm completely mistaken, can't you do this with an Arazu and Dampeners as well? 10 sec cycle time. Cannot be done efficiently. Nevermind the 5 sec cycle time of the warp disruptors where it gets is t2 bonus. Or it's hybrid dps bonus and it's drone bay. The falcon can use all it's ship boni while blinking and is only sacrificing rather irrelevant 50 dps from it's 2 missile launchers.
Arushia Nova Labs Empire Research	Posted - 2007.05.25 09:40:00 - [29] Originally by: Rylet VanDorn Lachesis: 20% bonus scram range + 5% Missile ROF bonus (btw, wtf? Missile bonus on gallente recon?) That's Roden **yards for you. Originally by:** Morreia Originally by: Christopher Dalran Gallente pilot here Exchange the 40% vamp/neut range bonus with a bonus to projectile ROF and we'll talk. D WTF does that have to do with the falcon? It has everything to do with the Lachesis and how it needs love moreso than the Falcon. Nova Labs and Empire Research
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.05.25 09:43:00 - [30] Originally by: Arushia Originally by: Morreia Originally by: Christopher Dalran Gallente pilot here Exchange the 40% vamp/neut range bonus with a bonus to projectile ROF and we'll talk. D WTF does that have to do with the falcon? It has everything to do with the Lachesis and how it needs love moreso than the Falcon. But why is he talking about an amarr ship and saying it should be given a minmatar bonus?

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