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Neurosis
Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.06 13:43:00 -
[1]
After playing on Sisi for a couple of hours yesterday It seemed a lot like CCP was attempting to bring back skirmish warfare. Before carriers, MS, And Titans it was very feasible for a small group of PvP'ers to impact alliance operations using hit and run tactics and by controlling key entrances to 0.0
My question is how will the addition of bombs, the new pos mods, and POS jump bridges affect how alliances do business as well as how does this affect smaller alliances.
From my viewpoint bombs are the best anti-blob tool ever introduced, kinda like a poor mans DD, and with the DD being able to only being detonated with the ship on the field it looks like this may give smaller alliances and PvP forces a way to fight back.
New pos mods from my take seem to be geared towards making it much harder to initially assault a POS, preventing your 2-4 man dread operations from effectively being able to take on a large tower, this also seems like it may deter much of the pos piracy I see. Being able to take out pos defenses requires a fair force to be effective but how will this affect system sieges when dreads mow down an entire system of pos's defenses leaving them unprotected.
Lastly POS Jump Bridges, seems like this may do an amazing amount for server performance removing so many jump que's, this also seems to be the poor man's titan giving small alliances ways to move ships and equipment deep into enemy territory, or for small alliances to completely bypass some of the more painful to defend entrances.
being in an alliance with a fair number of super capitals and seeing directly the benefit of them logistically and tactically, it now appears we may soon be facing an enemy with much better means to effectively counter us without having to spend the gazillion isk to build mother ships and titans.
discuss _________________________________________________' "I have the ability and the experience to do destroy BoB and believe me, BoB is getting desperate" 'Madeye'McCreedy'
[red]Sig is not eve r |
Tassi
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.06.06 13:52:00 -
[2]
Well, its freaking time that something changes don't you think?
The rich boys already had their prime time for too long if you ask me.
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Astasia Orian
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.06 13:54:00 -
[3]
The bridge module requires 5 weeks of holding sov + a large tower to run it. It has a very limited range (which is a good) thing, so it won't be the total cheesefest of 'no more stargates' that people are likely to complain about. On one hand it's going to be rather convenient, on the other it means less opportunity to find exposed freighters/haulers.
Overall I think the pos changes are going to expand the concept of Total War, as opposed to just bringing out the dreads at two 10-minute windows. You'll need smaller, agile gangs to disable guns, disable cyno jammers, etc. In the end it's still about having to put consistent, organized effort into taking space, so the same people crying 'poswar buhu' now will still be complaining.
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Vile rat
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.06 13:58:00 -
[4]
So everybody can set up jump bridge nets to empire and move freighters with no risk. whoopie.
It was a bad idea to allow that on titans and it'll be a bad idea here.
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Cupdeez
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.06 14:00:00 -
[5]
Don't forget about the fact that you can't jump into someones system if they have the new cyno net up and running.
1st you have to take in BSs and kill the anti-cyno generator (not sure how well this will go since its installed at a pos outside the sheilds) After this is down then you can jump dread and carriers in.
Defending a system will be easy since you don't have to worry about hostile Capitals jumpping in on your fleet. You say roaming gang will be good I don't think this is going to be the case but it might be... I think you will see 3-8 carriers camping gates with large bubbles up knowning damn well no hostiles can drop capitals on you.
Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo Davip |
Talen Reaper
O.R.C. Outrage Compliant Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.06 14:02:00 -
[6]
the alliances that have the capabilities to hold space or to have allies hold space for them will be able to move cap ship fleets all over 00 space quickly thus giving them a tactical advantage over those who don't ..now what alliance in EvE does this help the most ???????
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Astasia Orian
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.06 14:05:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Vile rat So everybody can set up jump bridge nets to empire and move freighters with no risk. whoopie.
It was a bad idea to allow that on titans and it'll be a bad idea here.
The bridge has a 5 LY range. You can't claim sov in empire. I admit that posting AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA is more fun than facts though.
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Amerame
Section XIII
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Posted - 2007.06.06 14:10:00 -
[8]
Faster logistic, faster travel mean bigger blob.
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Major Stormer
Caldari Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.06.06 14:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Cupdeez Don't forget about the fact that you can't jump into someones system if they have the new cyno net up and running.
1st you have to take in BSs and kill the anti-cyno generator (not sure how well this will go since its installed at a pos outside the sheilds) After this is down then you can jump dread and carriers in.
Defending a system will be easy since you don't have to worry about hostile Capitals jumpping in on your fleet. You say roaming gang will be good I don't think this is going to be the case but it might be... I think you will see 3-8 carriers camping gates with large bubbles up knowning damn well no hostiles can drop capitals on you.
True, but it also means if those carriers leave the system, they will have to wait for the anti-cyno system to be taken offline, during which the enemy can drop in capitals.
Its just a game. Get over yourselfs. |
VoYvod
Amarr Murder-Death-Kill Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.06 14:13:00 -
[10]
quit the whining 1st off i'm sure things will be fixed b4 it comes out , if it doesnt im sure the nerf bat will hit some things soon ,
but that anti-cyno generator , who ever thought of that deserves a kick in the throat a few times
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Crohnx
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.06 14:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Astasia Orian
Originally by: Vile rat So everybody can set up jump bridge nets to empire and move freighters with no risk. whoopie.
It was a bad idea to allow that on titans and it'll be a bad idea here.
The bridge has a 5 LY range. You can't claim sov in empire. I admit that posting AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA is more fun than facts though.
when did a goon post anything that made sense?
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EzSnake
Caldari The Silent Rage R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.06 14:17:00 -
[12]
Don't ya need Const Sov and have 3 outpost in that const will, to use most of these new 'toys'.... making it far more difficult for the 'little guys' to utilize many of the new features ________________________________________________ Next MMO |
Myz Toyou
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.06 14:45:00 -
[13]
The bombs seems quite useless according to a movie I saw these days here on the forums! - 2 bombs to pop a untanked wolf - 3 bombs to pop an untanked cruiser - and 5 or 6 bombs for an untanked Raven
/me sees blobs of bombers near the chokepoints soon(TM)
CYVOK > All you station jockies better get out their and start killing these idiots
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Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.06.06 14:59:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 06/06/2007 14:58:28 Jump bridges make people too mobile.
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David Ryan
Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.06 15:21:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Cupdeez Don't forget about the fact that you can't jump into someones system if they have the new cyno net up and running.
1st you have to take in BSs and kill the anti-cyno generator (not sure how well this will go since its installed at a pos outside the sheilds) After this is down then you can jump dread and carriers in.
Defending a system will be easy since you don't have to worry about hostile Capitals jumpping in on your fleet. You say roaming gang will be good I don't think this is going to be the case but it might be... I think you will see 3-8 carriers camping gates with large bubbles up knowning damn well no hostiles can drop capitals on you.
I like the concept of having to send in non-capitals to disable the anti-cyno, but in reality it just wouldn't work well. The defender would just put a blob of carriers on the gate making it not possible for the incoming fleet to do get anywhere.. -------------------
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Chirinako
Caldari Legionari Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.06.06 15:24:00 -
[16]
In a nutshell, I think that CCP are trying to employ anti-blob tactics. Although in some cases I can see it being quite the opposite.
Goon: "OMG BOB MS 10k OFF GATE@@@@@" GoonFC: "WOW READY THE BOMBER FLEET!!!!@@@" GoonGrunt: "LEEROOOOOOY@@@@@@@@@@@" GoonFC: "KWIK WARP IN THE 600 BOMBERS ON THE MS DROP BOMBS AND BANG BANG BANG!!!" Bob MS: "o noe...NOE..NOEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE...//////" *bang*
I do agree though that Rev2 is being designed to bring back Skirmish warfare and for that I am thankful because I don't like playing a game that reduces itself to 1 frame every 10 seconds when there's more than 50 people on grid.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising Vigilance Infinitas
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Posted - 2007.06.06 15:35:00 -
[17]
I dont see jump bridges and cyno mods making much of an effect on an alliance's widespread logistics due to the sov. requirements. However, they finally give the defender an advantage over the attacker, say you have a pair of outposts in a constellation. Your fleet is stuck in outpost system #1, while outpost system #2 is under attack. You can use your very-short range jump bridge array to move your fleet into a defensive position in outpost system #2. They'll also make internal logistics much, much easier. Moving a large quantity of minerals, pos fuel or capital components from one outpost to another will simply be a matter of undocking the freighter and sending it to the pos, instead of a 100-man 6-hour marathon freighter op between the systems. Should make pos logisitics alot easier.
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The Anointed
Caldari KR0M The Red Skull
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Posted - 2007.06.06 15:47:00 -
[18]
Edited by: The Anointed on 06/06/2007 15:51:46 I think the idea of having a mod on the pos to disable all cynos in the system is awesome. Should stop an entire system being washed away overnight with the defending alliance not having the cap ships to cope with it. At least gives them a chance to fight back to a certain extent.
The addition of player controled defences that are outside of a pos sheild is similar to the above statement, allowing people to focus fire leggaly and put up a bit of a fight. Link that with a cyno inhibitor and you have the potential for pos takedowns being stupidly difficult. Take this imaginary situation for instance, anyone attacking a hostile POS would have to face focused fire from player controlled guns, as well as standard pos guns, whilst not being able to cyno in anything. So they get a nice large blob of bs's to throw at this pos. 10 mins into the fight 10 throwaway bombers warp in. I can imagine the cries on vent already.
The jump bridge is quite cool again, it gives smaller alliances the ability to jump large fleets to a pos elsewhere, again with the other additions this makes it more feasable to claim an area of space with less people. Does the jump bridge allow the jumping of cap ships? Would be un balanced if it did.
Bombs, well im kind of undecided on them at the moment, mainly because they are easy to train for and would be stupidly overpowered in swarms (hint hint). youl probably see every ship in the game fitting lunchers with defender missiles to try and counter them, or more than likely people sitting at pos's and deep safes untill they know they arent going to get nuked by a fleet of bombers.
So far the changes that I have seen on the test server seem to be in the right direction for allowing better control of space, but at the same time, I was under the impression the idea was to make it so that small gangs could have an impact on territory control.
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Vodka Neat
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.06.06 15:48:00 -
[19]
I like the changes for the simple fact that it will be something different. Right now most everyone is still thinking in the strategy of how it has been. Give it a few weeks on the live server to see some master tactician come up with the new "way it should be done". Why are you still reading? Its over. Continue to the next post.
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Kar Strike
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.06 15:48:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Astasia Orian
Originally by: Vile rat So everybody can set up jump bridge nets to empire and move freighters with no risk. whoopie.
It was a bad idea to allow that on titans and it'll be a bad idea here.
The bridge has a 5 LY range. You can't claim sov in empire. I admit that posting AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA is more fun than facts though.
uh...
Originally by: Astasia Orian On one hand it's going to be rather convenient, on the other it means less opportunity to find exposed freighters/haulers.
You already raised a very similar point to him. Now you disagree with someone just because of their ticker? That's not at all petty.
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Grim Faust
Kinetic Vector Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.06 15:49:00 -
[21]
Some things I'd be interested to know is;
What's the overall requirements of the grid/cpu of a anti-cyno generator?
I find this important to know because it will signify just how hard or easy they will be to defend. This is of course in terms of , if you place this at a designated POS, how much room is left to support turrets to defend it?
How tough are they to kill in comparrison to one turret?
I also find this important because the scale of damage needed to take one out in comparison to how hard a turret is to take out will determine a likely strikes target. If it's as easy to kill as one turret then you'll obviously kill the anti-cyno first and hop out asap. If it's as easy as killing 4 turrets and there are less than 4 turrets, you'd kill the turrets first of course. But if it were as tough as 4 turrets and there were more than 4 turrets, once again, timewise you'd probably go for the anti-cyno first.
I also don't see how this helps the smaller alliances either. Perhaps if you already hold space, then maybe. But to have 3 outposts to start is no small feat. Not to mention the fact that if you DON'T already hold space, these new features will make it that much harder for smaller alliances to take down such things and get a foothold. In my opinion, these changes just solidify powerblocks even more and that in my opinion is not what the game needed.
__________________________________________________ I survived CCP eating all my sigs and all I got was a crappy colorful moderator message... colorful? -Sahwoolo ... =( |
Githtakai
Gallente Crab and Krawdad Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.06.06 15:50:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Githtakai on 06/06/2007 15:49:44
At one point you could put up guns and other modules during reinforced mode under the new changes. Has anyone here played with that recently?
If that's still the way of things it makes POSs cheaper because they won't have guns running most of the time... You just have one jammer POS with some guns. Then once the bad guys take that down and put your POSs into reinforced you activate guns everywhere and put up a new cyno jammer with some spare offline jammers (because you can only run one per system) in case the enemy blows up your main one.
Better yet, now that you have warning you can set up remote repping carriers to defend the anti-cyno module and the attacker will have to defeat numerous capital ships in order to down the cyno-jammer.
I know they are changing things a lot but that's how it was last time I checked and it looked like a defender could make things MUCH more difficult than it is today.
(Edited: clarity)
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Crusari
Gallente Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.06.06 15:52:00 -
[23]
They should have made it easier to kill a POS, not harder. It already encourages fleets to bring in loads of ppl just to protect the capitals.
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The Anointed
Caldari KR0M The Red Skull
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Posted - 2007.06.06 15:58:00 -
[24]
The fact that the defenders have the ability to use cap ships to defend a system against an attacker that cant cyno in his own cap ships, puts the defender on teh high ground by a large amount.
Thats going to incite insane blobs.
Bombers are going to be used to excess seeing as they are pretty throwaway.
Mmmm, Trevs post about people being too rich is going to go out the window when people start trying to take down pos's.
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Astasia Orian
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.06 16:00:00 -
[25]
Quote: So everybody can set up jump bridge nets to empire and move freighters with no risk. whoopie.
It's the emotive THIS IS TERRIBLE rubbish that I object to. It's not zero risk, it's reduced. It's not "everybody", it's people who are prepared to hold sov unmolested for 5 weeks, run a large tower, etc. The vast majority of 0.0 space-holding empires are connected to highsec via lowsec and then 0.0, not highsec -> 0.0 (or at least not the 0.0 that will be the destination for their freighters).
Given that you can't claim sov in lowsec and that the bridge has quite a limited range, you'll see reduced opportunity to bag freighters going between 0.0 outposts/conqs in the same area, not OMG EVERYONE GETS INSTANTFREE BRIDGE FROM JITA TO NOL. Allainces will still be doing the vast majority of their bulk logstics the same way they do today.
Discussion of new features always gets overwhelmed with the "lets state the worst possible scenario based on me having read 2 lines of information on the feature" posts so I'm whinging about that a bit :)
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Victor Vision
Central Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2007.06.06 16:01:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 06/06/2007 16:01:01
Originally by: Neurosis From my viewpoint bombs are the best anti-blob tool ever introduced, kinda like a poor mans DD...
Poor mans strategy is the blob. Giving the poor man a good tool to kill themselves is very thoughtfull, indeed.
Originally by: Neurosis New pos mods from my take seem to be geared towards making it much harder to initially assault a POS, preventing your 2-4 man dread operations from effectively being able to take on a large tower...
That is great! It will help large alliances stay in power, and prevent anyone from wrongfully taking it from them. A splendid idea!
Originally by: Neurosis Lastly POS Jump Bridges, seems like this may do an amazing amount for server performance removing so many jump que's, this also seems to be the poor man's titan giving small alliances ways to move ships and equipment deep into enemy territory...
... so they can then loose their equipment quickly to BoB. Providing BoB with fun pew-pew. Awesome.
Originally by: Neurosis being in an alliance with a fair number of super capitals and seeing directly the benefit of them logistically and tactically, it now appears we may soon be facing an enemy with much better means to effectively counter us without having to spend the gazillion isk to build mother ships and titans.
That is right. Others besides BoB should not build motherships and titans. That would be just wrong and unfair. And yes, they should instead bring many targets which can easily be killed by titans and motherships.
Overall, seems like excellent ideas.
What I am missing is alliance owned sentry-guns. These should only be available to the alliance which effectively controls most of 0.0 though. They fought hard for it, and deserve this priviledge.
That would nicely round up the package.
EVE War I - Quick Overview (Feb/March)
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Major Stallion
The Dark Horses Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.06 16:06:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Talen Reaper the alliances that have the capabilities to hold space or to have allies hold space for them will be able to move cap ship fleets all over 00 space quickly thus giving them a tactical advantage over those who don't ..now what alliance in EvE does this help the most ???????
ZING! score one for you, my friend. Well placed pot shot! =D
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Grim Faust
Kinetic Vector Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.06 16:10:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Grim Faust on 06/06/2007 16:12:22
Originally by: The Anointed The fact that the defenders have the ability to use cap ships to defend a system against an attacker that cant cyno in his own cap ships, puts the defender on teh high ground by a large amount.
Thats going to incite insane blobs.
Bombers are going to be used to excess seeing as they are pretty throwaway.
Mmmm, Trevs post about people being too rich is going to go out the window when people start trying to take down pos's.
In a nutshell that pretty much sums things up. You have someone with a MS or 3 and a stack of 20-30 dreads/carriers with possible support to defend. How the heck are you going to be able to take that sort of system with no caps to assualt with. Just think about then scaling that up with people who can bring 100 caps to the field. How many BS would it take to overthrow such a force??? The answer is way too damn many.
Hell! That even pidgeon holes people in to getting DD'd to death. Can't assault with caps? Bring in the small ships to swarm the POS! WRONG. DD. YOU LOSE. LAWL... __________________________________________________ I survived CCP eating all my sigs and all I got was a crappy colorful moderator message... colorful? -Sahwoolo ... =( |
Hey You
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.06 16:21:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Victor Vision Useless Take on new Changes
Do you Dream about us regularly?
Are those dreams good or bad?
Do you have nightmares about us?
Do you have BoB Posters on your room walls?
Are you in love with BoB?
And finally and most important...
Would a hug help?
To fall in love and fall in debt To alcohol and cigarettes and Mary Jane To keep me insane and doing someone else's cocain |
Crohnx
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.06 16:22:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Crohnx on 06/06/2007 16:23:08 lmfao at least wait for patch and than give up...geez
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