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Reduce the risk to low sec mission running, aka populate the desert.

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Hectaire Glade Forum Jockey	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:17:00 - [1] Much is being done to improve the reward portion of low sec PVE activity, level 5 missions, new encounters, exploration being a waste of time in high sec etc etc, but I prophesize that low sec will remain just as empty as it currently is after the initial novelty wears off level 5s. Unless you have the large scale organization to protect a reasonable sized chunk of low sec, right now its just too easy to get both detected and griefed when on a PVE encounter in low sec. Having missioned in both empire and low sec, I'll give you the most significant reason I no longer bother to mission in low sec, it is far far to easy to get griefed when you are tanking a large NPC spawn. Traveling to the encounter I am at minor risk of getting caught, either in my mission ship, or in my salvager/loot ship afterwards, I run the risk of gate camps just like every other low sec traveler, I am fair game. This I happily accept as one of the risks of being in low sec, its manageable and within my control, and balanced against the increased reward. Now here's the problem, the moment I travel through the acceleration gate into the mission I become the proverbial fish in a barrel. I am going to be tanking mission NPCs, Level 5s so far have all been full agro situations, even normal missions often carry DPS which will stretch all but the most specialized tanks. Any player who can find me in a mission has a significant ally, the NPC spawn. It doesn't react to arrival of a new player (in most cases), it doesn't realize that I am under assault from a pirate, it just keeps happily chipping away at me until either I kill it or they kill me. And before anyone attempts to propagate the myth further, it is not difficult to probe out players who are running missions. If CCP could address the NPC-assist risk issue, you would see more people missioning in low sec, this is a good thing all round, no? Proposed Solution: Lock acceleration gates to only the mission runner and gang while any NPCs are spawned in the deadspace pocket that the gate leads into. Those who think its unfair should ask themselves the question, would you rather have the potential target sitting in a station/logging off until you leave completely untouchable, or have the chance to get at them while they travel between 2 points, or when they are going back for loot. Or sit and the gate and wait till they kill the last NPC, but this would put you at some exposure, which has its own implications It reduces the risk to the mission runner slightly, maybe, just maybe, enough to attract a percentage of the empire crown into low sec. Thoughts?
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:25:00 - [2] Bring friends instead? ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:34:00 - [3] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 07/06/2007 10:33:39 Originally by: Malachon Draco Bring friends instead? Doomed to fail, pirates can also bring more friends. Mission runners are not the only people capable of adapting. My solution would be for the NPC to change targets as soon as someone comes in, so the newcomers are also aggressed by them.
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:38:00 - [4] omg worst idea ever! I live in low sec, run missions in low sec, and probe mission runners in low sec. Its LOW SEC there is supposed to be risk involved, try 0.0 where short of a POS, station or logging of your a target. At least in low sec deadspace gives you some protection... infact IMO too much. Then im not a fan of chance based probes. Im sorry you cant play in low sec, this game must be very hard for you, enjoy wow... o and can i have your stuff. Recruiting Terrorists
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:39:00 - [5] Edited by: Andrue on 07/06/2007 10:40:49 That's a bad solution. You're basically asking for your own private playground in low-sec and if that's the case you might as well be missioning in high-sec. I think that mission runners should face risks all the time in low-sec but I do agree that something needs to be done to balance the situation. My proposal: Give the NPCs a high probability of targeting incomers when they arrive. In fact while you're at it give them a probability (lower than for incoming ships) of switching at any time to any player ship. Mission runners aren't greedy in everything. I'm happy to share aggro amongst my friends and enemies -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] *This is not* a signature**
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:40:00 - [6] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 07/06/2007 10:33:39 Originally by: Malachon Draco Bring friends instead? Doomed to fail, pirates can also bring more friends. Mission runners are not the only people capable of adapting. My solution would be for the NPC to change targets as soon as someone comes in, so the newcomers are also aggressed by them. so now the only way you can do missions in gangs is if EVERYONE fits BS's with the same huge tank... again bad idea. Aggro tactics let nubs in T1 frigs join lvl4's and make it so you can have anti frig/anti cruiser/anti BS ships all in one big gang. Recruiting Terrorists
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:40:00 - [7] it would be more fun if rewards were increased, rather then if it were safer
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:41:00 - [8] For god's sake, stop saying "griefed". It's not griefing when someone scan you out and pops your ship in order to get the juicy mods. That's normal PvP It's griefing if, say, they relentlessly hunt specifically you with the intent of driving you out of the game rather than for any reasonable in-game benefit (like scoring an expensive faction item from your wreck. It's like the difference between terrorism and mugging. Remember kids: PvP is not a synonym for griefing.
Na'Thuul Caldari Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:49:00 - [9] Again, you fail to take into account the fact that more people in lowsec, means less chance of you being the pirates target, just like it is currently in 0.0 As an example, visit lowsec Khanid, systems like Irmalin and Vezila. PACKED with missionrunner making a fortune, and even if there is some risk, it is not very high. Sure the odd ship goes pop, but from my months of raping Khanid a while back during the time Sanguine Legion, Suffoco Noctis, Under The Wings of Fury and Blood Inquisition had a stranglehold on most of the area, I can tell you that the missionrunners there, by the simple concept of safety in numbers made a hell of a lot more ISK than they ever lost to us. More empty systems on the other hand were deathtraps. To make a real word analogy, if there are 5 lions and 1 wildebeest on the savanna, well... you know... it kinda dies. If there are 5 lions and 20 wildebeests, one will die, but each of them has a significantly higher chance of survival than the loner. ---
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:12:00 - [10] Originally by: Hectaire Glade Much is being done to improve the reward portion of low sec PVE activity, level 5 missions, new encounters, exploration being a waste of time in high sec etc etc, but I prophesize that low sec will remain just as empty as it currently is after the initial novelty wears off level 5s. Unless you have the large scale organization to protect a reasonable sized chunk of low sec, right now its just too easy to get both detected and griefed when on a PVE encounter in low sec. Having missioned in both empire and low sec, I'll give you the most significant reason I no longer bother to mission in low sec, it is far far to easy to get griefed when you are tanking a large NPC spawn. Traveling to the encounter I am at minor risk of getting caught, either in my mission ship, or in my salvager/loot ship afterwards, I run the risk of gate camps just like every other low sec traveler, I am fair game. This I happily accept as one of the risks of being in low sec, its manageable and within my control, and balanced against the increased reward. Now here's the problem, the moment I travel through the acceleration gate into the mission I become the proverbial fish in a barrel. I am going to be tanking mission NPCs, Level 5s so far have all been full agro situations, even normal missions often carry DPS which will stretch all but the most specialized tanks. Any player who can find me in a mission has a significant ally, the NPC spawn. It doesn't react to arrival of a new player (in most cases), it doesn't realize that I am under assault from a pirate, it just keeps happily chipping away at me until either I kill it or they kill me. And before anyone attempts to propagate the myth further, it is not difficult to probe out players who are running missions. If CCP could address the NPC-assist risk issue, you would see more people missioning in low sec, this is a good thing all round, no? Proposed Solution: Lock acceleration gates to only the mission runner and gang while any NPCs are spawned in the deadspace pocket that the gate leads into. Those who think its unfair should ask themselves the question, would you rather have the potential target sitting in a station/logging off until you leave completely untouchable, or have the chance to get at them while they travel between 2 points, or when they are going back for loot. Or sit and the gate and wait till they kill the last NPC, but this would put you at some exposure, which has its own implications It reduces the risk to the mission runner slightly, maybe, just maybe, enough to attract a percentage of the empire crown into low sec. Thoughts? What is this term 'griefing' of which you speak? I know not of it. Because I said so...
Annatar The Galactic Empire Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:44:00 - [11] Edited by: Annatar on 07/06/2007 11:47:42 Originally by: Andrue My proposal: Give the NPCs a high probability of targeting incomers when they arrive. In fact while you're at it give them a probability (lower than for incoming ships) of switching at any time to any player ship. IF then that would be a basic change in the way how npc's act. and that i think would bring any mining session with a tank (warping in/out haulers) or also if you even wanna bring your alt into the stage to support you aggro. Or think of soome kinda 10/10 plex with changing aggro so its a no, no, no. hmm forgett to say that low-sec is fine (mission runner wise not talking of ganker motherships) as it is. If you want to get even more reward more to 0.0 with an organised defense and intel channels you are mutch saver then moving around solo in lowsec. Well moving solo is everytime a problem, even in a freighter in highsec, nowadays ;) -------------------------------------------- Never argue with an Idoit, they will drag you down to their Level and beat you with experience.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:48:00 - [12] Why lowsec/0.0 plex running is 100% safe? Once you enter second stage (aka. obtain key for next stage) noone can probe OR find you. That's VERY nice and fair "to be honest it makes me wonder about the mental state of a person who would join a corp called Space Perverts and Forum warriors"
Annatar The Galactic Empire Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:54:00 - [13] If they havend got a spare key adn follow you deeper in the plex and finally getting nice faction stuff from that RED Alliance plex runners asss..ship hmm, yummy old LV hunting tactic ;) -------------------------------------------- Never argue with an Idoit, they will drag you down to their Level and beat you with experience.
Hectaire Glade Forum Jockey	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:56:00 - [14] A lot of people missing the point, its pretty clear today that the risk of missioning in low sec is not compensated by the reward. The vast majority of mission runners are sat in nice, safe empire systems like Mostu and Dodi. Now, if you wanted to entice a proportion of those players into low sec, you have 2 choices, either up the reward or decrease the risk to the point where more people consider it attractive. My proposal does not create 'own little safe spaces', it gives a reasonably simple mechanical fix to the one of the biggest issues with running missions in low sec today. The mission runner is still completely vulnerable in transit and as soon as the NPC-assistance issue is dealt with. I toyed with the change of NPC behavior as mentioned by one poster, its an equally viable solution, but also somewhat exploitable and also requiring all people in your mission group to be set for tanking, which today doesn't happen with logistics alts. Instead of bleating 'no, that sux', come up with an alternative solution to redress the currently ineffective risk/reward ratio for low sec mission running. We all want more people in low sec, no?
Lysit Kaune Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:01:00 - [15] Would be better to make it so missions required a more PVP orientainted build, that way players get a soft PVP intro and might even have the option of hitting back at pirates probing out your drones.
Kappas. Galaxy Punks	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:08:00 - [16] I was never much of a mission runner before, but having just left a 0.0 alliance I gave it a go as something else to pass time, so I ventured off and found the best agent I could use was in a sparsely populated low sec system. Pretty much 10 minutes into the mission when I was tanking a huge amount of NPC's I noticed a scan probe be deployed then a short time later 2 recons warp in and cloak. I was scrambled by the rats so the only thing I could do was to fight back, so out go the Ogre II's and they happily attack a recon ship while I concentrate on managing my tank... But the recons warp away :( Anyway, the point is it seems to be really really easy to launch a scan probe and warp to someone doing a mission, and as the OP pointed out, in some cases it's like shooting fish in a barrel, even a t1 frig warp scrambling you and jamming you could get you killed. Broken risk vs. reward - I'm sure pirates would like to have more people to shoot at at gates or stations too :)
Zeonos Amarr Fairtrade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:11:00 - [17] if you dont like the risk, dont take it... ?... it would be like converting all wow pvp servers to pve.. :( Image gallery with some of the new ship models.
Drykor Minmatar Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:14:00 - [18] Seriously, low sec missionrunning isn't dangerous. Organise yourselves, get an intel channel, join a corp. I haven't lost my ship once while missionrunning in low sec. And why the hell are you traveling to the system? Of course that will get you into trouble, having to cross the lowsec/highsec border all the time. Start living there instead. Usually you don't need to do more than 1 jump for a mission, if you do, decline it. And please be quiet about 'griefing'
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:22:00 - [19] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 07/06/2007 13:24:46 Originally by: Ryas Nia Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 07/06/2007 10:33:39 Originally by: Malachon Draco Bring friends instead? Doomed to fail, pirates can also bring more friends. Mission runners are not the only people capable of adapting. My solution would be for the NPC to change targets as soon as someone comes in, so the newcomers are also aggressed by them. so now the only way you can do missions in gangs is if EVERYONE fits BS's with the same huge tank... again bad idea. Aggro tactics let nubs in T1 frigs join lvl4's and make it so you can have anti frig/anti cruiser/anti BS ships all in one big gang. Not really... think a bit before replying, please. If 4 ships comes, then each need a tank 4 time smaller than before (I'm stating the obvious, apparently, you need it). Therefore, instead of 1 BS with a tank, you'll need 4 cruisers with a tank, therefore allowing for anti-frig... another easy to find solution would be to make ships with the biggest signature targeted more often, which also allows frigates in, but let them feel the heat. And the fact that noob t1 ship finish lvl 4 mission with this trick is a borderline exploit in my point of view : they should take some of the heat too. Call it a "clever use of the IA mechanics" if you wish, it's clearly not in my opinion. PS : And as far as the OP is concerned, this idea isn't good, as it provides near invulnerability during missions in low sec. Which is not really a good thing, especially since a solution to offset the problem exists (getting people aggroed by NPC too, or give them a large possibility to change target at random).
Fujiko MaXjolt	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:16:00 - [20] How about NPC`s aggressing anyone agressing the player they`re attacking ? That would make it possible for a pirate to take on the mission-runner and the mission-runner would have the disadvantage of a specialized tank weighed up by the "assistance" of the NPC`s. And before the piwates start flaming that "it`s an unfair advantage for the mission-runner", i`ll give you your own advice : Bring friends - we know you do anyhow...
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:20:00 - [21] OP: Bad solution. That just makes missioning completely safe. Seeing as WTZ (and no bubbles allowed in low sec) means travel is pretty much guaranteed safe, and you're safe in missions (except when there are no NPCs, which is almost never), the mission might as well just be in high-sec. The NPC Assist thing is an obstacle, though. With it doing its thing, its just stopping more PvP happening in low sec. And we WANT more PvP in low sec. I've still not heard any solution that really appeals to me, though. --------
uNtOldPAIN Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:23:00 - [22] Another how about.. Mission runners (ganged) in low sec doing a mish....they get probed down and other players warp in to do some ebil. The new focus of the aggro of the mish would be the new and improved ship(s) warping in. So the focus of the aggro of the mission would be on the ebil do'ers and not the mission runners. They are not ganged with the mission runners so that could be the flag for the aggro.
Talkie Toaster Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:29:00 - [23] i dont have a solution, but i also dont see lvl 5s and low sec getting populated much more thna it already is. from what i can gather you can run thes lvl 5s in carriers and stuff as well as in groups of BS. 1) many people can only get on for 2-3 hours at a time. its sometimes difficult enough to get yourself kitted and mission run and salvaged in that time, let alone trying to organise a gang, get all kitted, fly wherever, avoid the inevitable gate camp, do the mission, salvage the mission and get back. 2) on the assumption that the devs will follow previous great ideas and place all lvl 5s in one or two systems, pirates will have no issues working out where the hell people are. 3) yes, there are a large number of people who love eve for its pvp. there are also a lot MORE people who dont. they are more than happy playing the game for the social aspects offered in a relativly safe part of space known as high sec. the majority of these gamers wont go into low sec or 0.0 no matter what happens. Yep its a game. but they are spending a lot of time and a lot of money getting what they have. its a hobby and a past time. people with hobbies and past times dont want to lose everything they built up unless they have no choice. all the time choice is available to stay in high sec or go to low sec, high sec will prevail. thats NEVER going to change. crying out "go play wow" also isnt going to make them change.
Fenren	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:37:00 - [24] that will also give missionrunners a little too much security. the one i like most is the divided aggro depending on sig radius. or make them firstly want to target their own size, then the bigger ones, and lastly the smaller Originally by: CCP Greyscale Deadlines are when TomB says "get this done by such-and-such a date or I'll set you on fire".
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:41:00 - [25] My thinking of deadspace is that you shouldn't be able to warp into it from outside without using the gates. Have an RP reason for there being a 'key' to that pocket makes utterly perfect sense. Otherwise it's like having a house and keeping the door unlocked - it's stupid. We all know the rats are stupid anyway - I mean look at how many are killed every day and they just keep coming - but they shouldn't be that stupid. I've been toying with some algorithms for drone and NPC AI, most of which is centred around some degree of randomness. I don't like how easy and boring the missions currently are, or how static the NPCs are. It would be easy to provide an 'onSpawn' method that fits an NPC ship just as a PC fits their ship. This would make things alot more interesting, cause you don't know who is tanking for what damage, who has the scram/web, who is the trigger etc. I would love that kind of game. Part of it, though, is increasing the AI to make it less 'stupid' so that if there is more than one person kicking around, some aggro goes to them. This is the bit I'm working on just now, how to get the balance right for each person. This adds to the 'gentle PvP introduction' which another poster said, and I really, really like that idea. Most of the whines that I've seen are from carebears (of which I am one, I'm not using that in a derogitory fashion, just as an adjective) who have been used to going into WC, taking full aggro, and tanking an entire pocket. Then they go into PvP thinking they are invincible, and get taken down by a group of 5 T1 fitted Caracals. I fall into this trap - I am terrified of losing my shiny ships, which is partly the 'omg I can take on any number of rats and win' philosophy, but also part of the 'missions give crap money' realisation. Make the rats harder universally, increase the reward. That will a) make missions more interesting and b) make pirates think twice in case they go into a full WC pocket and half the rats go 'omnom yarr'. Because, quite frankly, where is the risk/reward payoff for a pirate taking down a mission runner? The risk/reward thing works both ways.
William Alex Viscosity Dark Synergy	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:50:00 - [26] Originally by: Malcanis For god's sake, stop saying "griefed". It's not griefing when someone scan you out and pops your ship in order to get the juicy mods. That's normal PvP It's griefing if, say, they relentlessly hunt specifically you with the intent of driving you out of the game rather than for any reasonable in-game benefit (like scoring an expensive faction item from your wreck. It's like the difference between terrorism and mugging. Remember kids: PvP is not a synonym for griefing. Define: Griefing Griefer is the term for a player in an online computer game who deliberately sets out to discomfort other players. I agree that pvp doesn't have to be griefing, but if you think what you do isn't maybe you wana think a bit more. Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
Pilok Shitfly Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Kuolematon Why lowsec/0.0 plex running is 100% safe? Once you enter second stage (aka. obtain key for next stage) noone can probe OR find you. That's VERY nice and fair That's why i have several keys for second stage in my hangar,and a few were really surprised that i showed up in the second stage
Tarazed Aquilae	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:16:00 - [28] If you want low-sec to be populated then hereÆs how to do it. Move CONCORD into low sec. (low-sec only, not 0.0 space) Allow players (by corporation) to sign up for CONCORD low-sec protection. However, (THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART) CONCORD would only protect you from other CONCORD protected players. Just to give them some names IÆll call the CONCORD protected players ôCarebearsö and people who donÆt sign up for protection ôPirates.ö The overview and local should show if someone is a Pirate or Carebear. If a pirate shoots at a pirate the gate guns fire at the aggressor but CONCORD doesnÆt show up. The aggressor takes the normal security hit. (The way it is now.) If a Pirate shoots at a Carebear the gate guns fire on the pirate and but nothing else happens. (No security hit and no CONCORD.) If a Carebear shoots a Pirate the gate guns do nothing and the Carebear doesnÆt take a security hit. (This makes Carebear pirate hunters possible) If a Carebear shoots a Carebear then CONCORD shows up and kills the aggressor. The aggressor also takes a security hit. This would give people an automatic team. Part of the problem with low sec is that you donÆt know who to trust and you canÆt aggressively defend yourself without taking a security hit. With this system the Carebears could feel safe around other Carebears and defend themselves when any Pirates show up. This would lure more Carebears into low-sec. Pirates could operate against Carebears without taking security hits. They would have more targets to choose from. Carebears who want to hunt pirates could see who the Pirates at a glance. Expanding on this idea. (Maybe this is what factional warfare will be like.) If you want a whole lot of PvP then make it so you can either sign up for the Caldari/Amarr faction, the Gallente/Minmatar faction, or stay neutral. Members of either faction could shoot at members of the other faction anywhere in Empire without CONCORD intervention. NPC navy ships and gate guns would open up on members from the opposing faction as well as sending out system wide alarms that hostiles where in the system. Bounties would be paid for killing/podding members of the other alliance. Mission runners who were part of one faction would get extra bonuses to rewards and better loyalty point rewards. Neutrals would keep on working just as they are now, except that they would be charged a 10% or so tax on everything they buy or sell to help fund the war effort. (Also create an NPC corp for each faction thatÆs at war with the other faction. This way people who donÆt want to be in a player corp could join in the fun too.) Numbers would be imbalanced and this would be a big problem of course. So, adjust the tax rate, bounties, and mission rewards bonuses for the smaller side.
Vitrael Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:10:00 - [29] Locking acceleration gates behind you? Sounds like somebody got probed and popped in a t2 something or other to me. It's not "griefing", it's PVP. You got your warning message when you first jumped into low sec and you ignored it. Now you have paid dearly. Any good low sec mission runner knows to check local and, when he sees a potential threat there, to regularly scan for probes. If you see a probe on scanner, it's time to leave. Even if the scanning ship is a top skilled recon, you will still have at the minimum 30 seconds before he can warp to your gate. That's more than enough time to catch on to your hunter and leave or, even better, bring friends. I fly and live in low sec- I haven't gone back to high sec except for the market since I made this character. I mission all the time, and just the same I have only once been successfully tackled after being probed. Most of the time I catch attackers on local and probers on scanner first and my mission is empty (or full of blues) by the time the attackers get there. Why is low sec empty? Who knows. ----------
cal nereus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:15:00 - [30] Originally by: Na'Thuul To make a real word analogy, if there are 5 lions and 1 wildebeest on the savanna, well... you know... it kinda dies. If there are 5 lions and 20 wildebeests, one will die, but each of them has a significantly higher chance of survival than the loner. I love that analogy. Anywho, I think the only change that might be okay would be having the NPCs attacking anyone who warps in. Other than that, everything seems reasonable about the current low-sec mission-running. D:
SiJira	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:19:00 - [31] it is really sad that the term agro even exists npcs are dull and mindless ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:22:00 - [32] Originally by: Ryas Nia ...so now the only way you can do missions in gangs is if EVERYONE fits BS's with the same huge tank... again bad idea. Aggro tactics let nubs in T1 frigs join lvl4's and make it so you can have anti frig/anti cruiser/anti BS ships all in one big gang. C'mon people. This is not a problem with a difficult solution. It could be done easily one of two ways. 1) Have a timer that once a room is 'activated' counts down 1 minute (or 5 or whatever). After that any new ships arriving in the mission area get aggro from 50% of the NPCs left. 2) Anyone NOT a part of the mission runner's gang gets aggro from 50% of the remaining NPCs. Either of the ways above would allow for mission running as it is today with the added beenfit that now people coming in to attack the player running the mission also have to cope with the NPCs. It blows my mind that people so interested in attacking mission runners do not see the inherent unfairness of the mission runner having to cope with a dozen NPCs who may be webbing, scramming, damping (or whatever) and then deal with the approaching ganker as well. I would propose a further change. The mission runner should be able to aggress the incoming pirate with NO sec hit. They are in 'your' mission area afterall and waiting for the pirate to just amble up and start shooting on their own terms is bogus. Pirates still have the rather sizeable advantage of PvP > PvE setups. At least try to level the playing field a bit.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:22:00 - [33] Originally by: William Alex Originally by: Malcanis For god's sake, stop saying "griefed". It's not griefing when someone scan you out and pops your ship in order to get the juicy mods. That's normal PvP It's griefing if, say, they relentlessly hunt specifically you with the intent of driving you out of the game rather than for any reasonable in-game benefit (like scoring an expensive faction item from your wreck. It's like the difference between terrorism and mugging. Remember kids: PvP is not a synonym for griefing. Define: Griefing Griefer is the term for a player in an online computer game who deliberately sets out to discomfort other players. I agree that pvp doesn't have to be griefing, but if you think what you do isn't maybe you wana think a bit more. Like you say, deliberately sets out to discomfort players. A pirate who is attacking you for your T2 loot isn't deliberately trying to discomfort you; in fact, your comfort more than likely doesn't even occur to him. He's doing it for personal gain in the game- a legitimate play style if ever there was. If he's doing something with the sole purpose of getting on your nerves, thats griefing. if he's using a game mechanic in a grossly unintended way, hats griefing. If he's just patroling around blowing people up in order to take their valuables, thats not griefing. --------
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Academy Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:33:00 - [34] This topic=. No sympathy. Local, scanner, 1-2%/scan chance of a hit...what more could you want? Outlaws are not allowed in safe space--why should you have free run in our house? The only "grief" I feel is when the mission runner has sensibly moved out of scram range of the warp-in point . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Aioa Planetary Assault Systems	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:35:00 - [35] Originally by: William Alex Originally by: Malcanis For god's sake, stop saying "griefed". It's not griefing when someone scan you out and pops your ship in order to get the juicy mods. That's normal PvP It's griefing if, say, they relentlessly hunt specifically you with the intent of driving you out of the game rather than for any reasonable in-game benefit (like scoring an expensive faction item from your wreck. It's like the difference between terrorism and mugging. Remember kids: PvP is not a synonym for griefing. Define: Griefing Griefer is the term for a player in an online computer game who deliberately sets out to discomfort other players. I agree that pvp doesn't have to be griefing, but if you think what you do isn't maybe you wana think a bit more. What is called griefing in other games is tolerated in Eve, so the word has no use here. Let us not use it, and instead use real words that mean real things. Thanks.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:54:00 - [36] Originally by: RuleoftheBone This topic=. No sympathy. Local, scanner, 1-2%/scan chance of a hit...what more could you want? Outlaws are not allowed in safe space--why should you have free run in our house? Ok folks...math lesson. Your 2% chance is not as bad as it seems at first glance. First off do not forget that if the mission runner has drones out your chances rise considerably as there is a chance hit on each drone (can you scan for wrecks?). Also L5 missions will require more than one player to do so again your chances improve. But for the sake of argument I'll assume no drones and just one mission runner. This is simple probability math...feel free to look it up. Assumptions: - There is a 3% chance (that is the number I have heard with skills) to find a ship. - We'll say 1 minute per scan. - 1 ship in the mission area with no drones out. If you have a 3% chance at success then you have a 97% chance at failure. To determine your overall chances on multiple attempts you just keep multiplying the chance for failure against itself for each attempt. To illustrate the concept suppose I asked you to roll a 6-sided die and roll a "6". On one roll your chances are 16.67%. However, if I asked you to roll the die 10 times you would expect your chances of a "6" coming up to increase and in fact they do and if you do the math on 10 rolls you have an 84% chance of getting that "6". So, say you scan for the mission runner 3 times. Works like this: 0.97 * 0.97 * 0.97 = 0.9126 = 91.26% (chance of failure) = 8.74% (chance of success) Now try it for 20 tries and you get a 45.63% chance of success. 20 minutes of work and you are almost at a 50% success rate. Not bad in my book. Remember you can also have multiple people scanning to improve your odds and again for L5s you will be scanning down multiple ships improving your odds further. Of course you could get colossally unlucky and miss on 100 scans in a row but then someone else may hit on 5 scans in a row. Who knows? In the end though, if you average all player attempts out (or do enough yourself) you will find your success rate converging on the numbers above and that seems like more than a fair deal.
uNtOldPAIN Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:54:00 - [37] Originally by: Kehmor Edited by: Kehmor on 07/06/2007 16:03:11 It is a common misconception that probing makes missions dangerous. For a start it takes ages, with one probe ship you can be there for 10 minutes getting nothing but fails. Then you have to catch the mission runner. A smart one will move atleast 25km from the warpin spot, out of standard scramble range. Without MWDs that gives them plenty of time to warp out even if you manage to probe them down. Finally there is a little something called the scanner. keep it at a low distance so you can keep an eye on just the targets coming into the mission, and dock if they do. Finally there is LOCAL. watch it. It is not ccp's fault if carebears are too ******** to protect themselves. In my opinion missions should remain as they are but all level 4 agents should be removed from high sec. When someone is running a mission they arent really fitted for PVP and the Pies(I dont want to say Pies...but will use it as an example ) are betting on this. Im sure most mission runners dont run around with a warp scrambler fitted on thier ships going into a mission. They are fitted get the most tank and or cap ...and other things to complete the mission(s) and not have to warp out. Some of these missions you can be in there for a while, so 10 mins or more for probing is NOTHING. While this doing the mission someone warps in...you have the NPC agro going on and then have the issue of the trespassers. Why not move the agro on the visitors? They want to come in the mission. Why not have them help out with the agro of the mission.
Agnar Koladrov Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:07:00 - [38] Too much hassle to read through all the replies, I get rather tired from them oid. Anyway, locking the gates to gang specific players is a bad thing. There is nothing wrong with being able to probe someone out, who's in deadspace pocket, tbh. What needs to be implemented though, in my opinion, is a 'NPC threat detection' system. Where one ship posses less or more risk then an other ship based on a ships fittings. The level of threat is based on the total sum of the fitted equipment, where each item would then have a, invisible to the player, predefined individual threat count. Ships fitted with, for example, standard pvp gear (webber/scram/nos) will be considered more of a threat then ships not fitted with pvp gear (only weapons & self sustaining items). Now, the higher the total sum of you ships threat count, the more likely it is NPC's will target you first or switch targetlock to you. This would count for gangs aswell, where one gangmate could be more of a threat then an other. This will even the odds, for PvE and PvP aswell. Oh, amnd yes this is my opinion. ________________________________________________ -- What a Revelation! -- Where was the creativty for speed/mass/etc when the tier2 Battlecruisers were designed? Why the same for each race BC?
Chelone	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:49:00 - [39] I doubt there would be any easy way to make low-sec attractive for most people. It's like saying "how much of a raise would it take for you to change jobs, to work in an area of the ghetto where every X days roaming gangs will smash and total your car with baseball bats?" Well first off, they would want AT LEAST enough extra money to pay for the car. Then they'd want more to account for the psychological trauma involved (yes that's what I said) as well as the inconvenience of constantly having to replace their car. And many people just wouldn't want to deal with that situation at all (though it can be argued everyone has their price.) Mission runners are there to make money, and maybe to grind and relax a bit. Relaxation, what a concept! They aren't there to be human targets for adolescent-minded griefers whose only enjoyment in the game is hurting people. PvP is stressful to many people, especially when it's PvP they have no chance of winning. Who is more to blame, PvE'ers who want to avoid risk and stress of being attacked by pirates, or PvP'ers who want to avoid risk and stress by having easy targets who can't fight back? There's absolutely nothing noble about probing out and killing mission runners. You're the attacker, you pick your target who is usually someone already pushing the limits of a tank, and by nature cannot be setup to defend against you. As someone said, people could grief (yes grief) low-sec missioners in nothing more than a frigate. "Have intel and bring more people" and then the pirates bring more people. Won't work. Only thing that has a chance - increase rewards to more than make up for ship losses, and make LOTS of L5 agents spread out EVERYWHERE. Even then, I have my doubts. There is just too great of a difference between highsec and lowsec, and too many evil children that just play the game to hurt people.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Academy Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:22:00 - [40] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 07/06/2007 18:22:26 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: RuleoftheBone This topic=. No sympathy. Local, scanner, 1-2%/scan chance of a hit...what more could you want? Outlaws are not allowed in safe space--why should you have free run in our house? Snipped bumf Your relevant comment: "First off do not forget that if the mission runner has drones out your chances rise considerably as there is a chance hit on each drone (can you scan for wrecks?). " This tells me that you don't actually fly a covert/recon. Yes there is apparently a slightly increased chance of a hit when drones are out (is this actually documented? I have not seen it but it makes sense in that the detection envelope is increased due to your drones being out). Bear in mind that not all mission runners use drones...and the chances of a hit during the mission are still relatively small. And your one minute scan time example is faulty as well (considerably overestimated for those with skills ). I look forward to probing out your cap ships in missions too. Reasonable ransom rates will still apply . This thread is still . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Jayson Lee Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:35:00 - [41] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 07/06/2007 18:22:26 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: RuleoftheBone This topic=. No sympathy. Local, scanner, 1-2%/scan chance of a hit...what more could you want? Outlaws are not allowed in safe space--why should you have free run in our house? Snipped bumf Your relevant comment: "First off do not forget that if the mission runner has drones out your chances rise considerably as there is a chance hit on each drone (can you scan for wrecks?). " This tells me that you don't actually fly a covert/recon. Yes there is apparently a slightly increased chance of a hit when drones are out (is this actually documented? I have not seen it but it makes sense in that the detection envelope is increased due to your drones being out). Bear in mind that not all mission runners use drones...and the chances of a hit during the mission are still relatively small. And your one minute scan time example is faulty as well (considerably overestimated for those with skills ). I look forward to probing out your cap ships in missions too. Reasonable ransom rates will still apply . This thread is still . What is the time to probe with max skills and using the proper ship?
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:36:00 - [42] Originally by: RuleoftheBone This tells me that you don't actually fly a covert/recon. Yes there is apparently a slightly increased chance of a hit when drones are out (is this actually documented? I have not seen it but it makes sense in that the detection envelope is increased due to your drones being out). Bear in mind that not all mission runners use drones...and the chances of a hit during the mission are still relatively small. And your one minute scan time example is faulty as well (considerably overestimated for those with skills ). I look forward to probing out your cap ships in missions too. Reasonable ransom rates will still apply . This thread is still . Admittedly I have not tried to scan down mission runners and am going from what I have seen on the forums. It seems accepted here (forums) that having drones out increases your chances of getting found. How much I do not know but generally people in the know who mission in low sec try to not deploy drones for this reason. Even if someone does not use drones or does not deploy them L5 missions will demand more than one shipto finish (maybe more...no clue). So double your chances for L5 missions at least and if you look at my thread on the math of it all that is really not bad at all for the pirate. As for scan time I am told with skills it is under a minute. How else do people expect to catch logoffskis that disappear in short order if their scans take five minutes? I have heard stories of people probing down a logoffski pod and killing them within a minute. If I am wrong then fine...how long does it take to run a scan?
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:47:00 - [43] Originally by: Hectaire Glade And before anyone attempts to propagate the myth further, it is not difficult to probe out players who are running missions. It can take up to an hour, or never happen at all. It requires the use of a 5au or 10au probe (sometimes you can't even get close enough) and for the entire time I am probing you can simply hit the scan button and if you see a probe out, STOP RUNNING THE MISSION. If you are in the second or third or fourth room you can simply be scanning the local 100,000km area and if you see another ship, STOP RUNNING THE MISSION. Quote: Proposed Solution: Lock acceleration gates to only the mission runner and gang while any NPCs are spawned in the deadspace pocket that the gate leads into. You solution reads as Proposed Solution: Put me in a safe little bubble where no one can come and attack me so that I don't have to be put at the same risk as say, someone running a belt or a complex or an exploration site And if you can't see why thats just plain wrong, you need to find another game. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Hectaire Glade Forum Jockey	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:48:00 - [44] As I said, anyone touting the 'its hard to find people in missions' either has not tried or does not have reasonable scanning skills. Its easy to find people in missions under current mechanics, drones make locating you significantly easier. Given most level 4s take around an hour to complete, if someone is actively looking for you they will come to play within than time window, either that or they do not know how to scan properly. Back to my original point, I'm trying to suggest a way to get people into low sec, making missions safer once your are through the acceleration gate would mean more people in low sec who are still vulnerable in travel and when looting. I use the word 'griefing' because in my mind someone who attacks you when under full NPC spawn agro is doing exactly that, stacking the odds undeniably in their favor and taking almost no risk at all. Those disagreeing would rather sit at the empire gate and hope some noobie comes through on auto, or have an increased number of active experienced players in low sec?
Hectaire Glade Forum Jockey	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:53:00 - [45] Originally by: Ridley Tree STOP RUNNING THE MISSION. Quote: Proposed Solution: Lock acceleration gates to only the mission runner and gang while any NPCs are spawned in the deadspace pocket that the gate leads into. You solution reads as Proposed Solution: Put me in a safe little bubble where no one can come and attack me so that I don't have to be put at the same risk as say, someone running a belt or a complex or an exploration site And if you can't see why thats just plain wrong, you need to find another game. You don't get it do you? If a missioner runner has to stop running the mission everytime someone drops a probe, its not worth running missions in low sec, period, may as well go do them in empire where you don't get interupted. End result? Low sec remains just as empty as it as today (with the exception of Khanid). Its called compromise, whats in place today obviously isn't working, so something needs to change or the low sec population won't. Would you rather have the chance to get someone intransit or looting, or no chance at all because they are in empire?
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:54:00 - [46] Quit worrying about how many people are/aren't in LowSec. It doesn't matter <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:15:00 - [47] Edited by: Ridley Tree on 07/06/2007 19:18:28 Originally by: Hectaire Glade As I said, anyone touting the 'its hard to find people in missions' either has not tried or does not have reasonable scanning skills. Yeah cause I've never scanned down any missions. I don't have nigh perfect scanning skills, a buzzard and a hanger full of probes. Quote: Its easy to find people in missions under current mechanics, drones make locating you significantly easier. Given most level 4s take around an hour to complete, if someone is actively looking for you they will come to play within than time window, either that or they do not know how to scan properly. Its not hard, its time consuming. Much like a mission. Quote: Back to my original point, I'm trying to suggest a way to get people into low sec, making missions safer once your are through the acceleration gate would mean more people in low sec who are still vulnerable in travel and when looting. I use the word 'griefing' because in my mind someone who attacks you when under full NPC spawn agro is doing exactly that, stacking the odds undeniably in their favor and taking almost no risk at all. Kind of like exactly what you are asking for? Stacking the odds 100% in your favor by making you impossible to harm? Traveling without being killed is incredibly easy. Fit up 8x stabs and almost no gate camp will worry you. Dock up in system, change your fittings and then undock and either fly to mission or if being station camped just redock and wait. Quote: Those disagreeing would rather sit at the empire gate and hope some noobie comes through on auto, or have an increased number of active experienced players in low sec? There are a large enough amount of people in low-sec as it is. The complaint is not that there are not enough mission runners. The complaint is that there are no miners, no belt runners and no complex runners. Quote: You don't get it do you? If a missioner runner has to stop running the mission everytime someone drops a probe, its not worth running missions in low sec, period, may as well go do them in empire where you don't get interupted. End result? Low sec remains just as empty as it as today (with the exception of Khanid). Yes I do get it. You apparently don't. You are asking for what will essentially be 100% safety. You will not be killed traveling through the gate because you can simply scout it or stab it up. You will not be killed outside station because you can simply dock up. You will not be killed at your mission because no one else can enter it. Am I missing something? Quote: Its called compromise, whats in place today obviously isn't working, so something needs to change or the low sec population won't. Would you rather have the chance to get someone intransit or looting, or no chance at all because they are in empire? What is in place today works fine. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Niton Stormrider Yona Mining Inc	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:22:00 - [48] Originally by: mazzilliu it would be more fun if rewards were increased, rather then if it were safer /signed! It's a simple risk/reward calculation. You'd be stupid to fly missions in lowsec when the rewards are not significantly higher. I like danger, but that's just a reality. Give me double LPs, agent rewards, and bounties, and I'll grab my friends and head to lowsec. Until then, I'll mission grind in high sec and go trolling when I wanna PvP, on my own terms. But don't lock the gates, that's mini highsec, which =lame.
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:48:00 - [49] Switching agro is the most ******** thing I've ever heard. Why dont the NPCs switch agro onto your basilisk boosting your raven? How about we make NPCs agro equally on all ships in a deadspace area? Mission runners in low sec already have far lower risk than belt ratters or miners or plexers, and they make more isk! And you want them to be safer? My suggestion is to increase the LP/reward bonus from the current 30% or so for shifting from 0.5 to 0.4. Instead make all empire mission running based on 1.0, then double the rewards for lowsec. Then maybe make it so anyone not in your corp/alliance/gang that warps into your mission area is fully agroable w/o sec penalty if sec status is such a big deal for some people.
Macmuelli Gallente Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:55:00 - [50] If npcs woud change targets when a pirate group enter your mission, this woud be absolutly nice and much more faier then now. If the deadspace gate woud be looked if u had enter it for a ammount of time, this woud be fantastic to like crypt a code as a mission runner after entrance deadspace. Then the pirate had to decrypt( skillbased) this code. To watch all the time the Local / scanner woud stop me njoying this game. Cos it s absoltly SICK that a group will then only patroling "hot" mission system to make the runners nervous. At least the Carebears are willing to pay high prices on mods/ ships. If they are no more present u can blow your deadspace plex mods via self destruction. They are the ones who salvage and mine to build stuff. Imagine u as a pirate had to mine and build your things buy your owen. Damm u get bored , i m pretty sure. Not by the first 1-2 ships even if u need to build a fleet . Moving level 4 agents into low sec, will not bring ppls into low sec to let them run this missions. Cos there are not realy balanced options for both sides. to the point: / create a gang /team to run missions. Well if u are in a small corp with diffrent time zones? joining a bigger corp? No, cos of nice ppls and friends? U wanna have Pvp as a pirate? Why not attacking a alliance, then ganking ships with an completly non pvp fitting? I ts easier then this ? "Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:00:00 - [51] Edited by: Ryas Nia on 07/06/2007 19:59:28 To every person that thinks low sec is to dangerous, or the reward is just not worth it. You suck at eve, really not trying to troll i mean it, there are 1000's of us living in low sec who ONLY lose ships to our own stupidity. If your losing ships... well then you know what you are. The ONLY thing i would ever support is a SLIGHT buff to low sec. TBH the ore sucks, the belt rats are ok for sub 3mth olds. The only things that actually make isk are missions and piracy. The risk is 100% manageable so long as you use that spongy white material between your ears. Recruiting Terrorists
alisandent Valiant Logistics Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:04:00 - [52] just buff the rewards to the point, you would be crazy to NOT do missions in low sec.
Macmuelli Gallente Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:16:00 - [53] Edited by: Macmuelli on 07/06/2007 20:17:48 btw carebears are the ones who have most time 2-3 + accounts - imagine 10 k + bored or nerfed carebears this is a S...load of money each month or in the year?. Find a balanced way to bring them into low sec, they go in. "NO Money... NO Bunny " "Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:25:00 - [54] Originally by: Macmuelli If npcs woud change targets when a pirate group enter your mission, this woud be absolutly nice and much more faier then now. Assisting my Gurista brethren inside a mission is one of the only times I can work hand in hand with my roleplay compatriots. Why take this away from me? And to be honest. Why would the NPCs in the mission redirect fire on to me, the one shooting you. The enemy of my enemy is my friend right? Guess that makes me and the NPCs best buds. I'm there to save their necks after all. And in my case, I really am. Quote: If the deadspace gate woud be looked if u had enter it for a ammount of time, this woud be fantastic to like crypt a code as a mission runner after entrance deadspace. Then the pirate had to decrypt( skillbased) this code. Great, more skill grindage. Quote: To watch all the time the Local / scanner woud stop me njoying this game. Cos it s absoltly SICK that a group will then only patroling "hot" mission system to make the runners nervous. Gee, guess what us Pirates do? We watch local 100% of the time like a hawk and have our scanner up on our screen getting refreshed ever 30 seconds to a minute. Well I do. But I'm paranoid. Quote: U wanna have Pvp as a pirate? Why not attacking a alliance, then ganking ships with an completly non pvp fitting? I ts easier then this ? You've got our motivations wrong. We want isk. Specifically your isk. The PVP is jut a nice side benefit to that. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Macmuelli Gallente Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:35:00 - [55] Edited by: Macmuelli on 07/06/2007 20:38:13 You've got our motivations wrong. We want isk. Specifically your isk. The PVP is jut a nice side benefit to that. jeah i dont know that alliances dont have isks.. mmh sry and u as a roleplayer (gueristas are your friends and brother and sisters) Why u dont go up to venal and kill some youwhat or bobs? and free your plexes and space from the conquerors and let the gueristas raise up? well your brother and sister get killed massiv day by day and u sit where? "Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:41:00 - [56] Edited by: Ridley Tree on 07/06/2007 20:40:24 Originally by: Macmuelli jeah i dont know that alliances dont have isks.. mmh sry and u as a roleplayer (gueristas are your friends and brother and sisters. Why u dont go up to venal and kill some youwhat or bobs? and free your plexes and let the gueristas raise up? Low-sec is more fun. And you're in an alliance, that has some syndicate operations IIRC. So stop complaining :p ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Macmuelli Gallente Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:46:00 - [57] showing a pro and contra is not complaining it s simply a think about what is what coud be ... btw i dont get my iskies from missions, there are much more ways. so i woud not complain cos of i can get isks anymore. "Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:26:00 - [58] Quote: jeah i dont know that alliances dont have isks.. mmh sry Most medium sized 0.0 alliance can muster gangs far larger than most pirate corp/alliances can, they're far tougher targets than people in lowsec, hence risk being high and reward being low. And 99% of 0.0 pilots dont fly around with billions in a faction fitted ship alone.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:32:00 - [59] Originally by: Chelone Thousands living in Lowsec? What server is that on? Any person that thinks lowsec is dangerous is called SMART. Tranquility. And yeah there are a few thousand players in low-sec. And he said to dangerous. If low-sec is so dangerous that you can't manage to live there relatively safely, yeah you suck at EVE. Now you might decide its not worth the hassle and thus stay in hi-sec. But if you just plain can't figure out how to not get ganked in missions or travel safely then you pretty much suck at EVE. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:33:00 - [60] Originally by: Gamesguy Most medium sized 0.0 alliance can muster gangs far larger than most pirate corp/alliances can, they're far tougher targets than people in lowsec, hence risk being high and reward being low. Yep. Quote: And 99% of 0.0 pilots dont fly around with billions in a faction fitted ship alone. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
MehTheTrader University of Caille	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:36:00 - [61] Whats with all these losers who want easy kills in low sec. LOL. Stop trying to design the game to easy for pirating in low sec. Low sec is basically 0.0... gate guns suck.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:39:00 - [62] Originally by: MehTheTrader Whats with all these losers who want easy kills in low sec. LOL. Stop trying to design the game to easy for pirating in low sec. Low sec is basically 0.0... gate guns suck. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Macmuelli Gallente Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:43:00 - [63] Edited by: Macmuelli on 07/06/2007 21:43:08 if pirating is easy like now...(missionsganking) or all mission runners start warping to station when a pirate gang pop up in local the pirates will get jobless or start carebearing "cirlce of eve life" "Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
Einheriar Ulrich Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:00:00 - [64] Ohnos i cant do my missions alone.... Adapt fight back Originally by: Jiekon/CCP If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine.
MehTheTrader University of Caille	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:07:00 - [65] Edited by: MehTheTrader on 07/06/2007 22:07:03 Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich Ohnos i cant do my missions alone.... Adapt fight back So a mission runner brings 10 pilots with him. Isk is not worth. The only adaption is going back to hi sec. Locking down the system for an alliance is another solution which is also pointless, you can do that in 0.0. lvl 4 are meant for solo missoners to be useful. If someone wanted to actually bring a fleet, they would be doing plex's. But mission runners are soloing, or else its not isk efficient. 2 people max, then lvl 3's win over. 2 people die easy. Your not pvping, you are ganking/griefing in this position. Big difference.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:56:00 - [66] Originally by: MehTheTrader Edited by: MehTheTrader on 07/06/2007 22:07:03 Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich Ohnos i cant do my missions alone.... Adapt fight back So a mission runner brings 10 pilots with him. Isk is not worth. The only adaption is going back to hi sec. Locking down the system for an alliance is another solution which is also pointless, you can do that in 0.0. lvl 4 are meant for solo missoners to be useful. If someone wanted to actually bring a fleet, they would be doing plex's. But mission runners are soloing, or else its not isk efficient. 2 people max, then lvl 3's win over. 2 people die easy. Your not pvping, you are ganking/griefing in this position. Big difference. Run 4-7 or so different missions using 10 people. If someone gets ganked, warp out of yours and to your buddy. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.06.07 23:01:00 - [67] players like you just show the rest how ret@rded some of the playerbase are... why is it you think that "if it suits me but not you then ** OFF", but why was it probes was implanted in the first place?! gues two times, and why didn't people like you leave before they came into the game?!.. idiot... well i think there is some good points in the op. Originally by:** Ryas Nia omg worst idea ever! I live in low sec, run missions in low sec, and probe mission runners in low sec. Its LOW SEC there is supposed to be risk involved, try 0.0 where short of a POS, station or logging of your a target. At least in low sec deadspace gives you some protection... infact IMO too much. Then im not a fan of chance based probes. Im sorry you cant play in low sec, this game must be very hard for you, enjoy wow... o and can i have your stuff. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Chelone	Posted - 2007.06.07 23:32:00 - [68] Originally by: Ridley Tree if you just plain can't figure out how to not get ganked in missions or travel safely then you pretty much suck at EVE. If you live in 0.1-0.4 and whine like a baby because you want more defenseless mission-running victims, then you pretty much suck at EVE.
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.07 23:41:00 - [69] Originally by: Chelone Originally by: Ridley Tree if you just plain can't figure out how to not get ganked in missions or travel safely then you pretty much suck at EVE. If you live in 0.1-0.4 and whine like a baby because you want more defenseless mission-running victims, then you pretty much suck at EVE. You failed your 8th grade reading class didnt you?
Chelone	Posted - 2007.06.07 23:46:00 - [70] IRON? Don't you have better things to be doing than trolling forums? Things like smacktalking in local, and running from a fair fight? But I guess being in IRON you just couldn't help identifying with these whining lowsec pirates who want easy victims.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.07 23:54:00 - [71] Originally by: Chelone Originally by: Ridley Tree if you just plain can't figure out how to not get ganked in missions or travel safely then you pretty much suck at EVE. If you live in 0.1-0.4 and whine like a baby because you want more defenseless mission-running victims, then you pretty much suck at EVE. Sure if you live in .1-.4 and you do whine like a baby for more defenseless mission-running victims, then you probably do suck at EVE. There are already plenty of them here! ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Chelone	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:11:00 - [72] Originally by: MehTheTrader Whats with all these losers who want easy kills in low sec. LOL. Stop trying to design the game to easy for pirating in low sec. Low sec is basically 0.0... gate guns suck. The problem is that lowsec pirates think they are just as "entitled" to easy player-kills as carebears are entitled to NPC-kills. Except, NPC's aren't people. Some pirates just cannot really comprehend that fact. PEOPLE don't want to give you free isk, or free kills, or free ego-stroking. Basically, the pirates who don't want a fair fight are just carebears who got tired of NPC missions. Some of them probably need to go BACK to missions, since they don't have (and will never get) an endless stream of easy kills from players. I agree the game should include piracy, but if they want pew-pew their victims will need a really good reason to walk into the line of fire. Originally by: MehTheTrader Then again hi-sec is not even safe, too easy too suicide with bs, cheap insurance prices. That's going a bit far. Yeah freighters or haulers can get suicided for ISK, and if people want to use disposable alts they can just suicide anyone for no reason. But highsec is still "safe." Stay out of Caldari space and you probably eliminate 80% of the highsec danger right there... and if you're running a 1Bisk pile of faction mods, make sure you know who the hell is around you.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:15:00 - [73] Originally by: Chelone The problem is that lowsec pirates think they are just as "entitled" to easy player-kills as carebears are entitled to NPC-kills. Except, NPC's aren't people. Some pirates just cannot really comprehend that fact. PEOPLE don't want to give you free isk, or free kills, or free ego-stroking. Yep, so entitled to those easy player-kills that I've gone ahead and given away the deep dark secret of using your scanner to watch for probes and how to avoid gate-camps. The only people whining in this thread have been mission runners who don't want to take the same precautions everyone else does in low-sec. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Chelone	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:27:00 - [74] Originally by: Ridley Tree Yep, so entitled to those easy player-kills that I've gone ahead and given away the deep dark secret of using your scanner to watch for probes and how to avoid gate-camps. The only people whining in this thread have been mission runners who don't want to take the same precautions everyone else does in low-sec. Only way to know what's on the other side of a gate, outside a station, etc is a scout. Some people don't want to pay for 2 accounts, nor do they want to constantly depend on friends to scout for them. And if someone has to constantly scan and scan during a mission, like a bird who is eating and constantly popping its head up looking for possible attackers, that too is a hassle and would require greater compensation. Also - new, higher level agents aren't even in the game nor distributed to their lowsec locations yet. You don't know what conditions will be like then. Put more chum in the water and more sharks are going to show up. If CCP has any sense, they will vastly spread out these lowsec agents and make them numerous enough to give people some small sense of safety, rather than simply creating new griefing hotspots.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:32:00 - [75] Originally by: Chelone Only way to know what's on the other side of a gate, outside a station, etc is a scout. Some people don't want to pay for 2 accounts, nor do they want to constantly depend on friends to scout for them. And if someone has to constantly scan and scan during a mission, like a bird who is eating and constantly popping its head up looking for possible attackers, that too is a hassle and would require greater compensation. Its not if someone has to. They have to. Period. Just as I do when trying to explore or hide in a safe. Great so if they don't want a second account and don't want to play with friends, then they won't be able to scout and that sucks for them. Get friends, get a second account, fly a stabbed up ship, fly a small ship etc... plenty of ways to get through low sec (and 0.0) safely. Quote: Also - new, higher level agents aren't even in the game nor distributed to their lowsec locations yet. You don't know what conditions will be like then. Yep I don't know, nor do you, hence why I'm not talking about some hypothetical future when Lvl 5s come out. I'm talking about the here, the now, and how to avoid people like myself if you want to care bear it up in low-sec. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Academy Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:33:00 - [76] Originally by: MehTheTrader Edited by: MehTheTrader on 07/06/2007 21:44:57 Whats with all these losers who want easy kills in low sec. LOL. Stop trying to design the game to easy for pirating in low sec. Low sec is basically 0.0... gate guns suck. 0.0 is safer as well, because the cowards who look to grief stay in low sec. They are afraid of the bubbles, not real men, tsk tsk. Come out and play, don't stay in low sec. Low sec basically safe for griefers, suicide for the newer player who wants to do some half decent ratting. Then again hi-sec is not even safe, too easy too suicide with bs, cheap insurance prices. If you want to be a l33t pirate. Get an arazu, fit a recon launcher and cloak. Warp in scram the mission runner. GG, he can't do anything, he didn't see you, nothing he can do. These low sec guys are SOOOO good. Got ganked much?? This thread remains . Ridley mate...I don't know why you bother arguing with the "WoW in Space" crowd . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Chelone	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:38:00 - [77] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Ridley mate...I don't know why you bother arguing with the "WoW in Space" crowd . Last I checked, you had to earn money to pay for all your PvP gear. Missions are about earning money, through a generally boring diversion. Period. It's not "WoW carebearing" to want to be able to earn money without losing your damn ship every hour. Elitist much?
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:45:00 - [78] Originally by: Chelone Originally by: RuleoftheBone Ridley mate...I don't know why you bother arguing with the "WoW in Space" crowd . Last I checked, you had to earn money to pay for all your PvP gear. Missions are about earning money, through a generally boring diversion. Period. It's not "WoW carebearing" to want to be able to earn money without losing your damn ship every hour. Let me see. I got a donation from an EVE Uni player. Took that and bought a Tristan and an Iteron. I started ore thieving. Then I did some 0.0 ratting in a Thorax. Then I started gate camping it up once in a Brutix. I occasionally do an exploration site if I decide I want some fast cash injection otherwise all of my isk comes from PvP. Indeed I'd estimate 90-95% of my total isk earned in game has been forcibly removed from the pockets of others via ransoms or from the sale of modules from their wrecks. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Qaed	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:45:00 - [79] I'm just a newb, but I agree with the OP. It's not that running missions in low sec should be "safe", but that I don't see any risk for people who pirate mission runners in low sec. All they have to do is wait for the right opportunity. That may be boring, but it's not dangerous.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:50:00 - [80] Originally by: RuleoftheBone EDIT--As to scan times it depends on the individual pilots skill. As Ridley already mentioned the typical scan process can take anywhere up to an hour. It comes down really to the number of scans/probe with each 5AU probe having a run time of a bit over 4 minutes. I think you mean 4AU exploration probes via scan probe launcher. 5AU probes run about 30 seconds to 2 minutes depending on scanner skills via recon probe launcher. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Academy Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:50:00 - [81] Originally by: Chelone Originally by: RuleoftheBone Ridley mate...I don't know why you bother arguing with the "WoW in Space" crowd . Last I checked, you had to earn money to pay for all your PvP gear. Missions are about earning money, through a generally boring diversion. Period. It's not "WoW carebearing" to want to be able to earn money without losing your damn ship every hour. Elitist much? No..not elitist. But I wonder if you are an 0.0 alliance-based mission-running alt who wants cake AND cookies (0.0 ratting mining/losec missions hassle free) . But I'll return the question-how many times have you been probed out and destroyed running missions? Maybe once or twice out of hundreds of missions run? If that? And I earn my isk by trying to take yours of course . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:52:00 - [82] wouldn't you increase the risk by decreasing it. no honestly think about it. if you decrease the risk more people would move there, and then the risk would increase becasue you have more people around you __________________________________ need a new sig :(
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:52:00 - [83] Originally by: Qaed All they have to do is wait for the right opportunity. That may be boring, but it's not dangerous. Has something to do with being a predator. You wait for circumstances to favor you, then you attack. As such it is just as you describe, a waiting game. There is no way to 'fix' something that is just a normal part of the eco-system. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Chelone	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:52:00 - [84] Originally by: Ridley Tree Let me see. I got a donation from an EVE Uni player. Took that and bought a Tristan and an Iteron. I started ore thieving. Wow, how noble. So let's all throw off our principles and follow your shining example. Oops, if we did that, there would be no ore to steal, because no one would be mining it!
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Academy Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:53:00 - [85] Originally by: Ridley Tree Originally by: RuleoftheBone EDIT--As to scan times it depends on the individual pilots skill. As Ridley already mentioned the typical scan process can take anywhere up to an hour. It comes down really to the number of scans/probe with each 5AU probe having a run time of a bit over 4 minutes. I think you mean 4AU exploration probes via scan probe launcher. 5AU probes run about 30 seconds to 2 minutes depending on scanner skills via recon probe launcher. I was being ambiguous so as not to scare them further . But the run time of all probes is fixed as you know and the 5AU probe has a total flight time of roughly 4.5 minutes. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Qaed	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:00:00 - [86] Originally by: Ridley Tree Originally by: Qaed All they have to do is wait for the right opportunity. That may be boring, but it's not dangerous. Has something to do with being a predator. You wait for circumstances to favor you, then you attack. As such it is just as you describe, a waiting game. There is no way to 'fix' something that is just a normal part of the eco-system. You're not a "predator" though, just another player who choses to pirate instead of something else. And the "eco-system", if it exists, won't change regardless if you are successful or fail. So, why should you have an advantage in engagements with missions running players? Shouldn't pirates have to face a risk too?
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:02:00 - [87] Originally by: Chelone Never been probed out. Never ran missions in lowsec. Why on earth would I? 3 quality points? LOL! That's the joke of the century right there. Give people real rewards if you want them to go there. LOL. So you're whining, complaining *****ing and moaning and coming up with 'solutions' to things you have no experience or understanding of? Have you even used a scan probe launcher? Do you even know how to use the scanner? Have you ever even shot another player? You can go now. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:06:00 - [88] Originally by: Qaed You're not a "predator" though, just another player who choses to pirate instead of something else. Originally by: American Heritage Dictionary pred+a+tor (prěd'ə-tər, -t(r') Pronunciation Key n. 1. An organism that lives by preying on other organisms. 2. One that victimizes, plunders, or destroys, especially for one's own gain. Yeah I'd say I'm a predator. Quote: And the "eco-system", if it exists, won't change regardless if you are successful or fail. Yeah it won't. And thats fine. People will keep on running missions/mining/ratting. I'll keep on preying on them. That will get me more isk so I can buy more stuff so I can keep on preying on people in new and exciting ways. Quote: So, why should you have an advantage in engagements with missions running players? Shouldn't pirates have to face a risk too? We kinda do. Gate guns. Anti-pirates. Mercs. Carebear Bait tactics. Pirates prey on other players. Our risks are only as dangerous as the people we prey on. Its up to you to be a threat to us because no one else in the game is. And its up to us to minimize those threats by picking our targets carefully. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Chelone	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:07:00 - [89] Originally by: Ridley Tree LOL. So you're whining, complaining ***ing and moaning and coming up with 'solutions' to things you have no experience or understanding of? Do you have experience being hit by buses on the freeway? No? Are you stupid enough to go walk in front of one? I'm sure you'd love me to fly a nice juicy faction ship into lowsec so you could provide me with some "firsthand experience", but fortunately for me that isn't necessary. My formidable intellect will more than suffice. If you had been listening, you would know that I simply explained WHY more people don't go there, and WHAT would be required for them to do so. But of course, you weren't. I also ragged on lowsec pirates who want easy kills, and now you seem bitterly offended, which leads me to believe you are one... Originally by:** Ridley Tree Have you even used a scan probe launcher? Do you even know how to use the scanner? Have you ever even shot another player? Yes, yes, and yes. I also devised UTTERLY INGENIOUS scanning methods which are sadly no longer workable because of module changes. Very sad, but them's the breaks. (I want my Observator deviation back!!)
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:15:00 - [90] Originally by: Chelone Do you have experience being hit by buses on the freeway? No? Are you stupid enough to go walk in front of one? red herring. Thank you come again. Quote: I'm sure you'd love me to fly a nice juicy faction ship into lowsec so you could provide me with some "firsthand experience", but fortunately for me that isn't necessary. Sure I'd like it, especially if you are too dumb to take the precautions I've advised. Quote: My formidable intellect will more than suffice. If you had been listening, you would know that I simply explained WHY more people don't go there, and WHAT would be required for them to do so. You mean you whined about how low-sec isn't safe enough for you? Boo hoo. "Make low-sec safer, more people will come" complains the carebear in hi-sec. The Pirate responds "um, there's enough people here thanks oh and if they implement those changes mission runners would be untouchable." Then you threw a little hissy fit about pirates whining like babies for more targets . Not that I've seen any pirates whining for more targets in this thread. Quote: But of course, you weren't. I also ragged on lowsec pirates who want easy kills, and now you seem bitterly offended, which leads me to believe you are one... Oh god yes. I love easy kills. They're quick, profitable and mildly entertaining. And if you think I'm bitterly offended you need to learn how to read people better. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:17:00 - [91] Oh and as it stands right now. A smart mission runner is untouchable. I ran missions in Venal for a bit to get my Gurista Corp standings positive for RP reasons. I escaped multiple gate camps and station camps without issue and managed to watch my scanner well enough to avoid being discovered in my missions. Why mission runners want more safety just makes me go . ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
MehTheTrader University of Caille	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:40:00 - [92] Originally by: Ridley Tree Oh and as it stands right now. A smart mission runner is untouchable. I ran missions in Venal for a bit to get my Gurista Corp standings positive for RP reasons. I escaped multiple gate camps and station camps without issue and managed to watch my scanner well enough to avoid being discovered in my missions. Why mission runners want more safety just makes me go . Recon Ships. They can cloak, you can't see them in scan, all griefers use those. You should know that since you are an expert in not dying during missions. So you would be easy prey to any griefer if you were missioning in low sec. Its funny how these low sec players think they are good at pvp. pvp is in 0.0, ganking noobs is in low sec.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:55:00 - [93] Edited by: Ridley Tree on 08/06/2007 01:57:23 Edited by: Ridley Tree on 08/06/2007 01:56:37 Originally by: MehTheTrader Edited by: MehTheTrader on 08/06/2007 01:44:16 Originally by: Ridley Tree Oh and as it stands right now. A smart mission runner is untouchable. I ran missions in Venal for a bit to get my Gurista Corp standings positive for RP reasons. I escaped multiple gate camps and station camps without issue and managed to watch my scanner well enough to avoid being discovered in my missions. Why mission runners want more safety just makes me go . Recon Ships. They can cloak, you can't see them in scan, all griefers use those. You should know that since you are an expert in not dying during missions. So you would be easy prey to any griefer if you were missioning in low sec. A smart missioner if he followed your plan would have a miserable death the first time he tried. A smart misson runner will stay in highsec or do a plex under protection. Its funny how these low sec players think they are good at pvp. pvp is in 0.0, ganking noobs is in low sec. Recon Ships can't cloak their probes /edit/ And I direct you to the Ridley Tree Productions Video Vault. There you can find a holo-vid entitled 'Rabbits in Mito, A Summary.' You will see me and my friendly corp not only ganking mission runners in low-sec, but busting and destroying 0.0 gate camps. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
MehTheTrader University of Caille	Posted - 2007.06.08 02:19:00 - [94] Originally by: Ridley Tree Edited by: Ridley Tree on 08/06/2007 01:57:23 Edited by: Ridley Tree on 08/06/2007 01:56:37 Originally by: MehTheTrader Edited by: MehTheTrader on 08/06/2007 01:44:16 Originally by: Ridley Tree Oh and as it stands right now. A smart mission runner is untouchable. I ran missions in Venal for a bit to get my Gurista Corp standings positive for RP reasons. I escaped multiple gate camps and station camps without issue and managed to watch my scanner well enough to avoid being discovered in my missions. Why mission runners want more safety just makes me go . Recon Ships. They can cloak, you can't see them in scan, all griefers use those. You should know that since you are an expert in not dying during missions. So you would be easy prey to any griefer if you were missioning in low sec. A smart missioner if he followed your plan would have a miserable death the first time he tried. A smart misson runner will stay in highsec or do a plex under protection. Its funny how these low sec players think they are good at pvp. pvp is in 0.0, ganking noobs is in low sec. Recon Ships can't cloak their probes /edit/ And I direct you to the Ridley Tree Productions Video Vault. There you can find a holo-vid entitled 'Rabbits in Mito, A Summary.' You will see me and my friendly corp not only ganking mission runners in low-sec, but busting and destroying 0.0 gate camps. You uncloak for one second to a launch probe.... please don't tell me you can really notice that.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 02:20:00 - [95] Originally by: MehTheTrader You uncloak for one second to a launch probe.... please don't tell me you can really notice that. Sometimes yes. But you can always see their probe ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Qaed	Posted - 2007.06.08 02:22:00 - [96] Quote: Yeah I'd say I'm a predator. You misunderstood my point. You're a player in EVE, the people you prey on are players in EVE. The individual should determine the success rate against other players, not the environment. Quote: Yeah it won't. And thats fine. People will keep on running missions/mining/ratting. I'll keep on preying on them. That will get me more isk so I can buy more stuff so I can keep on preying on people in new and exciting ways. Hopefully you do, because I don't see much excitement in engaging other players who have 20 NPC's targetting them. Quote: We kinda do. Gate guns. Anti-pirates. Mercs. Carebear Bait tactics. Pirates prey on other players. Our risks are only as dangerous as the people we prey on. Its up to you to be a threat to us because no one else in the game is. And its up to us to minimize those threats by picking our targets carefully. Those are general threats, and everyone faces them. When a player jumps into an instance and is fighting NPC's, they are facing a specific threat. There is no risk to a pirate jumping in after him, and there either should be or the player running missions in low-sec should be getting massive rewards for success.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 02:34:00 - [97] Edited by: Ridley Tree on 08/06/2007 02:33:24 Originally by: Qaed You misunderstood my point. You're a player in EVE, the people you prey on are players in EVE. The individual should determine the success rate against other players, not the environment. That would be the situation if we all got together in say, an Arena, and agreed to 1 on 1 matches. We don't. Instead we go about our business in a world where people are free to attack us whenever they wish. Therefor the intelligent player uses the environment to his advantage. For instance If I wait to attack a Raven only until after he has gotten aggro from 20 NPCs and I know that my Myrmidon, with the assistance of the NPCs (hell probably without) will be able to break his tank with ease... why would I not chose to engage him at his weakest? Quote: Hopefully you do, because I don't see much excitement in engaging other players who have 20 NPC's targetting them. I don't see much excitement in shooting 20 NPCs for isk when I can shoot another player for more isk. To each his own eh? Quote: Those are general threats, and everyone faces them. When a player jumps into an instance and is fighting NPC's, they are facing a specific threat. There is no risk to a pirate jumping in after him, and there either should be or the player running missions in low-sec should be getting massive rewards for success. Those risks still exist when I jump in. In particular the 'bait' risk. A risk that a PVE player doesn't face. But more importantly why should the Pirate be facing more risk for his actions in these circumstances? He is punished for them. No hi-sec entrance. Being shot by stations and gate guns after committing a hostile action etc... The risk to me is that of other players. If I manage those risks in such a way that they are negligible then I'm playing smart. In terms of the instance, as I said. I'm there to help NPCs. They've got no reason to shoot me. I've chosen to engage when risk to myself is minimal. I've done the smart thing. The person I've managed to nab has done the foolish thing and not watched their scanner. Simple. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 02:37:00 - [98] Its also worth pointing out that I am quite simply the only risk the mission runner faces. Missions can be run on autopilot and no one worth their salt is at any risk from the NPCs. The only risk to the mission runner is other players. The only risk to the pirate is other players. Somehow that seems fair to me. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
MehTheTrader University of Caille	Posted - 2007.06.08 02:43:00 - [99] Originally by: Ridley Tree Its also worth pointing out that I am quite simply the only risk the mission runner faces. Missions can be run on autopilot and no one worth their salt is at any risk from the NPCs. The only risk to the mission runner is other players. The only risk to the pirate is other players. Somehow that seems fair to me. Im actually not a mission runner, thought it may look like it . But risk/reward is really bad on lvl4's. Thats a 1bil isk ship, doubt anyone is crazy enough to risk that, for low rewards.
Dannek Llama F5 and Associates	Posted - 2007.06.08 03:16:00 - [100] To Pirates suggesting everything is fine and dandy while you sharpen your daggers: Go fight some L5 mobs and have one of your Pirate friends warp in and attack you. See if you have a chance. I don't think there's anything unreasonable about suggesting that rats split their attention between PCs. They attack the mission owner on sight, why would they hold their fire for a new interloper? The risk to the pirate should not only be in attacking the player, but having to deal with the situation that the player is in. I think of it as an environmental hazard. To not apply the detriment to both parties involved is what would be unfair. -------------------------------------------------------- Working towards my own personal Dreadnought, one ISK at a time.
Qaed	Posted - 2007.06.08 03:17:00 - [101] Quote: But more importantly why should the Pirate be facing more risk for his actions in these circumstances? You're not. As a matter of fact, you're not facing any realistic risk here unless for some reason the mission-runner is packing a scrambler, and then the risk is miniscule. That's the problem. Quote: He is punished for them. No hi-sec entrance. Being shot by stations and gate guns after committing a hostile action etc... Why would a pirate even go to hi-sec? The only pirating to be done is of the suicide kind, and alts are better to buy and transport gear. Being shot at after hostile action happens to everyone, not just pirates. Quote: The risk to me is that of other players. If I manage those risks in such a way that they are negligible then I'm playing smart. As I said, there's no risk in jumping into someone else's mission. The only risk you face is being caught by other players who aren't engaged in a mission. That's not a disadvantage though like having to fight pirates while running a mission.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 03:26:00 - [102] Originally by: Qaed Quote: But more importantly why should the Pirate be facing more risk for his actions in these circumstances? You're not. As a matter of fact, you're not facing any realistic risk here unless for some reason the mission-runner is packing a scrambler, and then the risk is miniscule. That's the problem. The risk I face is the action of the other player. That he has handicapped himself by his setup and lack of situational awareness is his problem, not mine. Quote: Why would a pirate even go to hi-sec? The only pirating to be done is of the suicide kind, and alts are better to buy and transport gear. Ease of travel? Moving my corp requires the use of freighter alts and jumping carriers to move rigged ships around. Generally takes a good deal of logistics to get anywhere. Moving a hi-sec corp around is 'alright guys, fly your ships over here within the next month.' There is also that fact that gate-guns don't protect you when you get shot at. Quote: Being shot at after hostile action happens to everyone, not just pirates. Not when you're shooting a pirate it doesn't. Quote: As I said, there's no risk in jumping into someone else's mission. The only risk you face is being caught by other players who aren't engaged in a mission. That's not a disadvantage though like having to fight pirates while running a mission. Right so the problem here is that you can be engaged on while you are doing something that puts you at a disadvantage if someone comes to shoot you . See what I said above. The pirate is doing the smart and intelligent thing by using the environment and the situation to his advantage. A smart mission runner won't get caught. A bad one will be. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Vladtsun Raide	Posted - 2007.06.08 03:31:00 - [103] Make pirates attackable anywhere, anytime, even when docked in stations. That is much more realistic. Let them face realistic representations of what it's like to be a "predator". If you're a "pirate" then civilization - aka stations - should offer you no succor. In real life, pirates get hunted everywhere, including every port they run to. That - and increasing the size of the rare element asteroids - will bring peeps out to low sec. Right now there's not much point to mining rare mins when killing the rats that will plague you are a faster source of money than the asteroids that last half a mining cycle.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 03:37:00 - [104] Edited by: Ridley Tree on 08/06/2007 03:36:21 Originally by: Vladtsun Raide Make pirates attackable anywhere, anytime, even when docked in stations. That is much more realistic. Let them face realistic representations of what it's like to be a "predator". If you're a "pirate" then civilization - aka stations - should offer you no succor. In real life, pirates get hunted everywhere, including every port they run to. Pirates are attackable anywhere, anytime. Except when docked in stations. And really if you think we should be attackable while in station you're off your rocker. Also in real life Pirate had plenty of safe havens and in the 'lower security' areas (such as the Colonies and the Caribbean) there were a great many famous ports of call that were friendly to pirates. Pirates were also able to ally themselves as 'privateers' of the various nations and thusly had free access to those ports. In addition in the world of EVE corporations exist in such a manner separate from the nations and separate from the police. Fed Mart and Lai Dai don't care if I shoot you. Quote: That - and increasing the size of the rare element asteroids - will bring peeps out to low sec. Right now there's not much point to mining rare mins when killing the rats that will plague you are a faster source of money than the asteroids that last half a mining cycle. True enough. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Chelone	Posted - 2007.06.08 04:29:00 - [105] Originally by: Ridley Tree The risk I face is the action of the other player. That he has handicapped himself by his setup and lack of situational awareness is his problem, not mine. That's your most delusional statement yet! You're on a roll! We are being told, friends, that a mission runner who is not in an all-out PvP setup has "handicapped himself." That is PROFOUNDLY stupid. Originally by: Ridley Tree Moving my corp requires the use of freighter alts and jumping carriers to move rigged ships around. Generally takes a good deal of logistics to get anywhere. (sound of world's smallest violin...)
Hectaire Glade Forum Jockey	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:02:00 - [106] Edited by: Hectaire Glade on 08/06/2007 05:01:53 Ridley, Thanks for relieving yourself all over the thread, the whole point of my original post was to create discussion, you've done a very thorough job of trying to extinguish that discussion with your very singular point of view. Surely as someone who 'preys' on non-pirate players in low sec you would welcome something which would increase the quantity of 'victims' available to you? If this brings 20 more people to your local system, one or two of them are going to be making the occasional mistake which will allow you to use your uberl33tskillz to kill them while under fire from 750-1000 DPS NPC spawn who you are 'helping' because its 'roleplay'.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:07:00 - [107] Originally by: Chelone That's your most delusional statement yet! You're on a roll! We are being told, friends, that a mission runner who is not in an all-out PvP setup has "handicapped himself." That is PROFOUNDLY stupid. He's taking on a spawn of 20 npcs in a public area where I can attack him. Therefor he's handicapped. There ya go... If he's not smart enough to look out and around for me coming to get him via scanner, there ya go. Quote: (sound of world's smallest violin...) And thats why I don't make threads complaing about it, I just point it out as one of the handicaps of being a pirate. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:09:00 - [108] Originally by: Hectaire Glade Edited by: Hectaire Glade on 08/06/2007 05:01:53 Ridley, Thanks for relieving yourself all over the thread, the whole point of my original post was to create discussion, you've done a very thorough job of trying to extinguish that discussion with your very singular point of view. Surely as someone who 'preys' on non-pirate players in low sec you would welcome something which would increase the quantity of 'victims' available to you? If this brings 20 more people to your local system, one or two of them are going to be making the occasional mistake which will allow you to use your uberl33tskillz to kill them while under fire from 750-1000 DPS NPC spawn who you are 'helping' because its 'roleplay'. You're weolcome. In my opinion low-sec is fine. There are plenty of mission spots out there and plenty of traffic into it. If people become invulnerable in their missions and outside stations and coming through gates via stabs then all my targets will dry up. Maybe you can see why I don't like your proposal. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:44:00 - [109] Originally by: mazzilliu it would be more fun if rewards were increased, rather then if it were safer Then the pirates might as well do the missions and forget the ganking :) The missions should be for FUN and Coop and the thrill of running from a pirate. Not here is your billion isk a mission thank you and come again. A Minmater City... Cool! My Stats :)
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:04:00 - [110] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 08/06/2007 06:07:38 Getting really tired of everyone saying low sec is just peachy. The constant whine of pirates to "just adapt" or "learn to deal with it" is just dumb. The FACT is low sec is totally borked and anyone with an ounce of sense can see it. 0.0 is safer and more profitable. Hi sec is safer and more profitable. Why the f--k does ANYONE think low sec makes sense as it is today? Just open your freaking map in game and look at the population distribution. Want to call 95% of EVE players idiots who just do not see the gem that low sec really is? Low sec needs fixing. Badly. A HUGE area of EVE is generally unsused because game mechanics make it silly for anyone to bother. If you cannot see that you are blind and I am shocked CCP has let it be. We can argue over the finer points of what fixes might be in order but to say no fix is needed and everyone who doesn't deal with low sec is naive is simplistic in the extreme. The game could be HUGELY better with getting low sec sorted out. So whatever your angle or opinoin on the deal try to look at the bigger picture. I and others have posted on ideas for changes to low sec that would bean improvement without nerfing anyone (pirates or carebears). Options exist. If you think the status quo is swell you are seriously blind or so caught up in your own world as to entirely miss the point.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:42:00 - [111] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h The FACT is low sec is totally borked and anyone with an ounce of sense can see it. 0.0 is safer and more profitable. If you keep secure control over your space. Just ask D2 how safe it has been for them lately. Quote: Hi sec is safer and more profitable. Why the f--k does ANYONE think low sec makes sense as it is today? Just open your freaking map in game and look at the population distribution. Want to call 95% of EVE players idiots who just do not see the gem that low sec really is? I'm calling the people who can't stay alive in low-sec bad players not willing to take the precautions necessary. This isn't to say that low-sec is a gem or that it is better than hi-sec or 0.0. Because frankly it isn't. It is however livable. People who think it needs to be made safer are idiots. Quote: Low sec needs fixing. Badly. A HUGE area of EVE is generally unsused because game mechanics make it silly for anyone to bother. If you cannot see that you are blind and I am shocked CCP has let it be. We can argue over the finer points of what fixes might be in order but to say no fix is needed and everyone who doesn't deal with low sec is naive is simplistic in the extreme. The game could be HUGELY better with getting low sec sorted out. Yes EVE could be much better getting low-sec sorted out. The OP's 'solution' as it were however is a bunch of bull** and I'm calling it out for what it is. Quote:** If you think the status quo is swell you are seriously blind or so caught up in your own world as to entirely miss the point. The Status Quo is a whole lot better than the proposed solution of the OP. And since this thread is about the OP's solution (and not yours or mine) I'm not arguing for other changes in favor over his. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:15:00 - [112] Originally by: Ridley Tree Originally by: Imperator Jora'h The FACT is low sec is totally borked and anyone with an ounce of sense can see it. 0.0 is safer and more profitable. If you keep secure control over your space. Just ask D2 how safe it has been for them lately. 0.0 space certainly can turn ugly but by and large it is "safer" than low sec. I do not think this is in dispute. Quote: I'm calling the people who can't stay alive in low-sec bad players not willing to take the precautions necessary. This isn't to say that low-sec is a gem or that it is better than hi-sec or 0.0. Because frankly it isn't. It is however livable. People who think it needs to be made safer are idiots. It is not about "bad" players. It is about the mechanics making low sec really not worth the hassle. Can people live in low sec? Sure. But why bother really? They'd be better off hanging near anywhere else (0.0 or hi sec). Again look at the in-game map. Do you REALLY think of the 150,000+ players in EVE that they are ALL a bunch of weenies who won't risk low sec? Is it just possible that they have made an considered decision that tells them low sec is NOT worth the hassle? Quote: Yes EVE could be much better getting low-sec sorted out. The OP's 'solution' as it were however is a bunch of bull** and I'm calling it out for what it is. Fine...you disagree with the OP's solution. That's cool. I have made alternate solutions and no one has commented. My solutions are ones that are similar to the OP but vary a bit to allow for issues others have brought up. No nerf to pirates, no nerf to mission runners...yet all seem hell bent on ignoring honestly given suggestions and wailing on the OP. To me the forums are a place for discussion of ideas and opinoins. I would hope it is a venue for hashing out thoughts and (hopefully) CCP will read some of this and take it into consideration (maybe not but one can hope). Quote:** The Status Quo is a whole lot better than the proposed solution of the OP. And since this thread is about the OP's solution (and not yours or mine) I'm not arguing for other changes in favor over his. As mentioned above the OP's solution may be deficient. That does not mean the issue he is trying to address is non-existant. There can be a kernel of a good idea in there (I think there is) that with some modification could be a great idea. Yet when all people can do is dump on someone's idea I do not think EVE or the community is well served. Bottom line - Is Low Sec as envisioned? I do not think so but of course I am not a dev. Could low sec use some tweaking? I think the answer to this is a near universal "yes".
Chelone	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:48:00 - [113] Originally by: FarScape III The missions should be for FUN and Coop and the thrill of running from a pirate. "Missions shouldn't be for money! They should be for the FUN and THRILL of running from pirates!" I can't believe the arguments keep getting stupider, but somehow they do!
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 08:01:00 - [114] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h It is not about "bad" players. It is about the mechanics making low sec really not worth the hassle. Can people live in low sec? Sure. But why bother really? They'd be better off hanging near anywhere else (0.0 or hi sec). Like I said. I'm calling the people who can't stay alive in low-sec bad players or are just not willing to take the necessary precautions. I'm making no comment about the people who choose to stay in Hi-sec. Quote: Fine...you disagree with the OP's solution. That's cool. I have made alternate solutions and no one has commented. My solutions are ones that are similar to the OP but vary a bit to allow for issues others have brought up. No nerf to pirates, no nerf to mission runners...yet all seem hell bent on ignoring honestly given suggestions and wailing on the OP. Great go make another (one of dozens) thread about your solution to low-sec. Maybe people who then respond to your point in your thread about it rather than de-railing this one eh? ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Hectaire Glade Forum Jockey	Posted - 2007.06.08 08:58:00 - [115] Ridley, did you win the thread yet? Can the rest of us get back to having a reasonable, mature discussion?

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