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Odium47
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Posted - 2007.11.12 18:29:00 -
[181]
lets get things clear, ok?
Speed is not a Tank !
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Aya Otosaki
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Posted - 2007.11.12 18:31:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Aya Otosaki on 12/11/2007 18:35:08
Originally by: Odium47 lets get things clear, ok?
Speed is not a Tank !
disagree ----- Ignorance is my strength. |
WowZilla
The Leeroy Jenkins Project
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Posted - 2007.11.12 18:40:00 -
[183]
Edited by: WowZilla on 12/11/2007 18:42:26
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Here is the thing...
To put it short: Vagas are breaking the speed vs dps balance.
Do you hear people complain about interceptors being overpowered because they can pick their fights, speed tank and run when they wish? No. Why? Because an inty has a balanced dps compared to its survivability.
Now look at the vaga. Even with half azzed fittings it still reaches close to interceptor speeds, ontop of it it has a cruiser hull (even if its not a tough hull its still better then a frig hull) and does alot more dps then an inty. This here is the balance issue.
This is the exact reason why they nerfed nano domis. A battleship hull going 5-6km/s avoiding everything because stuff that can damage it cant hit it (heavier missile types and heavier turret type) and light stuff that can actually hit it does way too little damage against this type of hull. They removed the nano domi. Soon its time to remove some of the vagas speed or dps. It needs a tweak. Either it goes as fast as an interceptor but then nerf its dps or it goes a bit slower and then it can still have its dps. Either way it needs a little fix.
Actually, your reasoning is spot on. A ship that can cause damage and speed tank so to avoid damage is overpowered. That is what you are saying.
However - your facts are way off. Because aside from its drones and the occaisional hit, the vaga cant hit for trying with high transversal/radial velocity. I'd go as far as saying, if you were to remove the drones, then a crow could outdamage a vaga orbiting full speed at 20k. But i have no data on that so dont quote me.
I've said it in this post already, the vaga is an awesome ship. Not awesome because it is overpowered, but awesome because it is so carefully balanced. Before the barrage tracking Nerf (for those nerf brigade too new or stupid to remember) then yes it was a tad out of balance. CCP should be proud of this ship. ______________________ I am the worst poster |
WowZilla
The Leeroy Jenkins Project
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Posted - 2007.11.12 18:41:00 -
[184]
Edited by: WowZilla on 12/11/2007 18:41:43 dp ______________________ I am the worst poster |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.11.13 17:56:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Vegetable Goodsoup The fastest cruiser invented to date, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat.
Yes,nerf the vaga for it actualy fills it's intended role! Oh yeah,also please buff nano-ishtar cause I fly it... it's a good enough reason ,right?
Oh you wanna play the quote ship description game?
Zealot
Hull: Omen Class Role: Heavy Assault Ship
The Zealot is built almost exclusively as a laser platform, designed to wreak as much havoc as its energy beams can be made to. As a vanguard vessel, its thick armor and dazzling destructive power make it capable of cutting through enemy fleets with striking ease. Zealots are currently being mass-produced by Viziam for the Amarr Navy.
If you think vagabond is lol, check the zealot. Its an epic lol for the gank ship described above.
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Setana Manoro
Gallente Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.13 19:22:00 -
[186]
Edited by: Setana Manoro on 13/11/2007 19:23:05
Originally by: Gallente McNuggets Nuff said.
No other HAC (or other ship) comes even close to the Vagabond in over-poweredness. It has speed, DPS and tank.
Just look at 99% of the alliances killboards and see how many peeps are flying it to see that every noob and his iWin button are flying one.
This is a side-effect of the Nano nerf. Now peeps all fly the only remaining nano ships - Vaga and to a lesser extent, Nanophoon.
Time to plug the hole. Let the noobs learn how to fly ships that actually, you know, involve a bit of risk and brain power.
Moved from Eve General Discussion to Ships and Modules -Eldo
overload meds = dead vaga kin missiles jav = dead vaga medium neut on curse or heavy neut on bs = dead vaga ecm drones = jammed vaga huginn/rapier = dead vaga good dps ?; it loses 40% of it's paper dps because vaga in optimal = dead vaga
stupid OP = not dead vaga
PS: To the guy above me. I don't even read Zealot description anymore, i get too sad. :(
Failgeddon wrecks CCP for XXX annoyed customers ! |
Brixer
Dai Dai Hai
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Posted - 2007.11.13 20:08:00 -
[187]
It's quite easy to see from killmails what is the *best* ship in each class. By looking at which HAC who have the most kills/deaths relative to the number of people who *can* fly that HACs and you have the most powerfull HAC.
Devs DO have access to this information, if they want to use it to pinpoint 'overpowered' ships I don't know. I think they're more busy answering whine threads on the forum atm.
I dunno what is the 'best' HAC, I only say it's possible to say with which HAC most people prefer.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.11.13 20:37:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Brixer It's quite easy to see from killmails what is the *best* ship in each class. By looking at which HAC who have the most kills/deaths relative to the number of people who *can* fly that HACs and you have the most powerfull HAC.
Devs DO have access to this information, if they want to use it to pinpoint 'overpowered' ships I don't know. I think they're more busy answering whine threads on the forum atm.
I dunno what is the 'best' HAC, I only say it's possible to say with which HAC most people prefer.
I bet zealot really shines on their list considering its "capabilities".
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Nizomi
Caldari Technopolis Ventures
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Posted - 2007.11.13 20:53:00 -
[189]
Vaga is far from overpowered. I used to think so too, then I trained for it and I can see that it's not nearly as overpowered that most people who cant fly it think. It has exactly one strong point, it can pick its fights and can get away _most_ of the time.
Some people in this thread are saying that the dps of a vaga is good. No, it's not. On paper you can get a close to 470 or so dps with max skills using barrage ammo and combat drones. However you people forget that the vaga needs to be sitting still at a range of about 2km from the target to do this kind of damage. What does happen to a vaga in that situation? He is dead. So to get a realistic dps of a vaga you can take 25-50% away from that number and you are close.
Also the mwd on a vaga is not that easy to sustain in a prolonged fight, without bursting it lasts less than 2 minutes. By bursting it, for a bit more. Even if your dps is capable of breaking the tank of the enemy you cant usually sustain your speed (=tank) long enough to kill it. Also bursting the mwd is really dangerous against missile ships which I painfully got to know when trying to kill an ISK farming raven some days ago. I bursted my mwd and his kinetic torps hit me while I was still going slow speed but the sig penalty of the mwd had already kicked in, result: I got nearly instapopped and yes, I did die.
So in conclusion, yeah vagas can have an effective k:d ratio but it isn't because they are able to kill alot of stuff but because they can usually avoid getting killed.
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Gosso
Gallente Deathwatch Inc. Black-Out
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Posted - 2007.11.13 20:55:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Nerf everything!
Especially those overpowered haulers I can't pop in a single volley
Here here! Agreed. ;D ---------------------------- My signature RULES. C=(☼_☼Q) |
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Tashiell Gao
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.11.13 21:10:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Tashiell Gao on 13/11/2007 21:14:24 if you want to get a ship nerfed, follow the following steps: 1.train for that ship PROPERLY. (this would get rid of EFT, killboard and video clip manics) 2.fit it properly and take it to PvP. for 3-4 monthes. Then you will fell in love with that ship, or if you are the kind of person want the best of everything to yourself, you might want to nerf other things. if so repeat the above.
Response to above few topics: speedtank is the only thing minmatar have. you can take it away as amarrians cruely enslaved minmatars, but we will get what ever you took from us!
Tashiell Gao |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.11.13 21:56:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Odium47 lets get things clear, ok?
Speed is not a Tank !
Ok lets make missiles ignore speed and hit everything and remove tracking tomorrow. Then I want you to come back and say the same thing again.
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Volir
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.11.13 22:09:00 -
[193]
Edited by: Volir on 13/11/2007 22:13:05 I rather see a new class of T2 cruiser, for the lack of a word, lets call them raiders. They would all be light cruisers modeled after the vagabond. Give them lighter tanks, short lock range, light capacitors (with a mwd consumption bonus) and weak sensor strength, but decent dps. They would rely on speed, but be countered by all forms of E-War. Move the vagabond into this group and increase the mass of all HACs to discourage speed tanks.
With the introduction of heavy dictors, we have 2 T2 ruptures, thoraxi, mallers, and caracals. This leaves room for a new stabber, vexor, omen, and moa.
The purpose of these changes is to fill niches. Obviously, there is a niche that is best filled by the vagabond. Instead of nerfing the vagabond, we should fill this niche with a ship balanced for it. The vagabond is overpowered because it is designed as a HAC that goes fast. With all the changes to speed recently in Eve, this has become overpowered. Instead of eliminating the role though, we should balance it.
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Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
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Posted - 2007.11.13 22:25:00 -
[194]
Originally by: d'hofren Edited by: d''hofren on 11/11/2007 02:48:23 Diary of a Vaga pilot.
I found a huginn, better run away I found a drake, meh can't break that tank I found a turret based BS, might be able to kill that, oh taking too long, local jumped best run away. I found a domi, oh hell neuts, warp you **** warp ......
Get the picture? the vaga is great when you find the right target. problem is that is quite a task at times.
Read this again people because yes this is what flying a Vaga is like. I so looked forward to getting a Vaga but since I have it has sat rusting in my ship hanger while I rack up the kills in a Hurricane. Sure when you get killed by a Vaga it seems pretty evil but as a Vaga pilot it is too hard to find targets for my liking. I'm just not that patient.
The idea of balencing the Vaga to other HAC's is about as mean spirited as it gets considering most other HAC's are underpowered and seldom used.
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NateX
Singularity. Talon Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.13 22:35:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Volir Edited by: Volir on 13/11/2007 22:13:05 I rather see a new class of T2 cruiser, for the lack of a word, lets call them raiders. They would all be light cruisers modeled after the vagabond. Give them lighter tanks, short lock range, light capacitors (with a mwd consumption bonus) and weak sensor strength, but decent dps. They would rely on speed, but be countered by all forms of E-War. Move the vagabond into this group and increase the mass of all HACs to discourage speed tanks.
With the introduction of heavy dictors, we have 2 T2 ruptures, thoraxi, mallers, and caracals. This leaves room for a new stabber, vexor, omen, and moa.
The purpose of these changes is to fill niches. Obviously, there is a niche that is best filled by the vagabond. Instead of nerfing the vagabond, we should fill this niche with a ship balanced for it. The vagabond is overpowered because it is designed as a HAC that goes fast. With all the changes to speed recently in Eve, this has become overpowered. Instead of eliminating the role though, we should balance it.
hmm.. "Raiders" like the idear :) gief another closeranged decent fast minmatard;p HAC
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Tregaron
Minmatar Filthy Scum
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Posted - 2007.11.19 14:45:00 -
[196]
i heard the vaga is losing a low slot gaining a med???? oh well lose a gyro slap on a web if this is so i'd like to thank everyone who moaned about how good a vaga is for making ccp change it for you. web'd, scram'd, and being shot instead of: scram'd then being shot
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eve warrior
Minmatar Filthy Scum
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Posted - 2007.11.19 14:55:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Tregaron i heard the vaga is losing a low slot gaining a med???? oh well lose a gyro slap on a web if this is so i'd like to thank everyone who moaned about how good a vaga is for making ccp change it for you. web'd, scram'd, and being shot instead of: scram'd then being shot
Unless its a faction webber i would not bother, I try to avoid webber range of the ship i am engaging as a webbed vaga is 98% of the time a dead vaga.
Eve warrior
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Vegetable Goodsoup
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Posted - 2007.11.19 15:21:00 -
[198]
Id chose the low slot over the mid slot,why? Well unless the vaga gets a increase in it's PG/CPU it wont realy be able to fit in anything usefull in there.Unless you got a faction webber... The vaga is fine in it's curent state,the HACs than need buffed/looked at atm are: -Munnin -Deimos The Munnin is arguably the worst HAC out there,it cant do better what a rupture can do,and a rupture is about 6-7 times cheaper aswell.
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Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.19 15:51:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Atius Tirawa on 19/11/2007 15:53:23
don't worry, they will get nurfed - and all of eve knows it. . .
Its losing a low, gaining a mid and losing base speed - the last bit it the key. . .but its all rumors at this stage.
Also, the Demios is fine. . .As is the Munin. . .both these ships are a pure joy to fly. -----------
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Semkhet
KR0M The Red Skull
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Posted - 2007.11.19 15:54:00 -
[200]
The only thing the vaga is overpowered at is generating useless threads...
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Odium47
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Posted - 2007.11.19 16:40:00 -
[201]
Lose an low slot for a med slot?! Does this mean Vaga pilots will get E-warfare tactics improoved... Everyone will have then trouble targetting them...after this you'll see the real whining ! LoL...CCP is really dumb !
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Kenshin Woo
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Posted - 2007.11.19 16:49:00 -
[202]
Can a Zealot, with the pulse laser tracking buff, successfully engage a Vagabond? It can't "win", but can it drive off the Vag?
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Chaplain Veritas
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.11.19 16:50:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Vegetable Goodsoup Id chose the low slot over the mid slot,why? Well unless the vaga gets a increase in it's PG/CPU it wont realy be able to fit in anything usefull in there.Unless you got a faction webber... The vaga is fine in it's curent state,the HACs than need buffed/looked at atm are: -Munnin -Deimos The Munnin is arguably the worst HAC out there,it cant do better what a rupture can do,and a rupture is about 6-7 times cheaper aswell.
i'd add Zealot to that list. ____________________________ the eyes are the groin of the face - dwight shrute |
Taliac
Caldari Soliders Of Eve The Church.
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Posted - 2007.11.19 17:22:00 -
[204]
Deimos needs another mid slot Nuff said:)
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Oli4Oli4
Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.19 17:42:00 -
[205]
vaga is not the i win button, nuf said.
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.19 18:36:00 -
[206]
The Vaga is very well balanced.
I've seen a wide range of ability in Vaga pilots fighting against them regularly in Providence. I only fly Gallente ships, which seem to have natural weaknesses against speed tankers, but I've learnt the tricks to beat them the hard way and each one you go 1v1 against is a fun challenge. Probably my fav ships to fight against! :)
A good Deimos pilot can MWD, often web the vaga, tank and kill him assuming he's fitted right so although the Vaga is probably the best in class, it is still beatable much of the time by ships in the same class.
You're completely wrong Gallente McNuggets. Sorry.
- Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas |
Shardrael
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.11.19 18:38:00 -
[207]
if that midslot thing is true then the day of the speedtanked vaga has been replaced by the day of the sensor damp vaga.... ***. ffs the vaga is fine and comparing a zealot to a vaga is silly. everyone knows the zealot is not pulling its weight as a hac and needs some love.
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Waxau
Mortis Angelus The Church.
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Posted - 2007.11.19 18:46:00 -
[208]
Actually, the mid slot is a bonus. From what i have heard (keep in mind, i fear vagas in ALL my ships, and have yet to fly one)...you pilots fit Gyros to compensate for the dps lost in your inaccuracy. By losing a low (a gyro lets say) and gaining a mid, you get a slot to fit a tracking computer. Which does more use than a low slot tracking unit, and still affects gunnery. So its a nerf to its speed, for those who fit it for full speed, but its a boost for those who also go for some dps.
But yes Treg - Id agree with eve here. Vaga in web range is not good. Granted, your speed will be enough to slingshot you out of range again, but if you're in web range, the whole reason the vaga is good, will be lost.
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Byzan Zwyth
Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.11.19 18:53:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Chavu Minmatars only do one thing better than the other races: speed. That's it.
The Vagabond/Stabber is the only ship that gets a speed bonus.
How many Gallente ships get a drone bonus?
How many Caldari ships get a missile bonus?
How many Amarr ships get a laser cap usage bonus?
We get one ship, okay, ONE SHIP. No speed bonuses on other ships and there are what, like 3 TECH 2 ships that get a falloff bonus? Please.
People fly the Vagabond because it is by far the pinnacle of a hit and run raiding ship. Invention reduced the prices so a lot of people can fly them but guess what, vagabonds die all the time.
not really a viable argument, I think the vigil also gets a speed bonus but the important thing is that pretty much all mini ships are a bit lighter, faster than the counterparts from other races. ---------------------- Rank: Tech 1 and a 1/2 cannon fodder
Pointless forum slowing bandwidth hogging signature pic inc? |
Odium47
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Posted - 2007.11.19 19:53:00 -
[210]
Vaga is a male's ship ! It is a hunter's ship, a single man's ship ! Always comes light, unarmored, not accurate (as a hunter should), not high damage striker (as all hunters are). Its only good feature is speed...but what is is speed without any control.
Changing a low slot for a medium slot will only increase Vagabond's tactical repertoire and will make it deadlier, but will keep low its dmg by limiting the usage of gyros. That's all! Anyway, nobody will fit another LSE II 'cause it will increase its signature radius. CCP didn't thought this metamorphosis exhaustively, it will only make the Vagabond even more difficult to target.
If the old Vagabond was only running and shooting, the new one will run (not as fast as before), tackle and jam its target...Now try to imagine how you could fight something fast and impossible to target ?!?!
Be careful what you wish for !
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