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Ricdic's Hoe	Posted - 2007.11.19 17:18:00 - [331] Edited by: Ricdic''s Hoe on 19/11/2007 17:19:12 There is no scam at this point. Until Wylker calls it as a scam or we see where the path takes us, lets not address it as one. Sure, we can definetly say some things have been seriously screwed up but a failure will/can result in partial reimbursement. A scam results in zero reimbursement. Lets see where things go and what is said tonight first. Argenton do you really enjoy coming into these forums from time to time to show off your epeen? Fact is there are 10 good businesses out there for every sour 1. You just keep your head so far up your (insert favourite orifice) that you only come out to play when something like this happens to yell "i told you so" which proves nothing. Hell, it isn't a scam yet anyway. edit: Typo
LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.19 17:26:00 - [332] Originally by: Naphtalia I don't asume anything, I don't even know what the IPO is about (obviously a carrier BPO) I just know that: Originally by: Naphtalia So he didn't respond for 1 week, so he has a lot of isk... Isnt this an asumption? A wrong one too. Proud nublet of more public ISK than * CAP4U - The Plan
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2007.11.19 17:27:00 - [333] Since witty short posts dont seem to go well, some explanation: A total nobody asks for 40b or so of ISK, shows absolutely nothing for about 5 months, and ridicules any criticsm whatsoever as trolling. The simple fact that he still has your cash without paying an ISK: SCAM. I dont need to be Wylker to know that. You didnt get what you paid for. And about people flamming Wylker. He managed to find investors for this business plan, and he (in theory) should be ever thankfull. Instead he is insulting and arrogant. For my tastes,the "OMG lets give him one more chance" to the "find out alts, find out friends, find out lose associates, find out one-time gangmates, then grief them out of EvE, then snap and hire RL mercs to camp his RL home" ratio should be aproaching zero. [1:n ~ zero for large n] Ricdics post above is the perfect example of what i am talking about. I never wrote that detailed essay on eve investments, maybe i will after Trinity. So i dont claim wisdom. However, this thread makes it all too easy. You are all just giving scammers ideas.
LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.19 17:34:00 - [334] Edited by: LaVista Vista on 19/11/2007 17:34:39 Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Since witty short posts dont seem to go well, some explanation: A total nobody asks for 40b or so of ISK, shows absolutely nothing for about 5 months, and ridicules any criticsm whatsoever as trolling. The simple fact that he still has your cash without paying an ISK: SCAM. I dont need to be Wylker to know that. You didnt get what you paid for. And about people flamming Wylker. He managed to find investors for this business plan, and he (in theory) should be ever thankfull. Instead he is insulting and arrogant. For my tastes,the "OMG lets give him one more chance" to the "find out alts, find out friends, find out lose associates, find out one-time gangmates, then grief them out of EvE, then snap and hire RL mercs to camp his RL home" ratio should be aproaching zero. [1:n ~ zero for large n] Ricdics post above is the perfect example of what i am talking about. I never wrote that detailed essay on eve investments, maybe i will after Trinity. So i dont claim wisdom. However, this thread makes it all too easy. You are all just giving scammers ideas. I was a total nobody aswell when i started, and asked for 20bill. Nobody knew me. Wylker had backup from people like Crovan, who i have spoken with personally. And i find him to a be trustworthy person. Proud nublet of more public ISK than * CAP4U - The Plan
Ricdic's Hoe	Posted - 2007.11.19 18:07:00 - [335] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Ricdics post above is the perfect example of what i am talking about. No, my post is an example of someone looking to not push Wylker over the edge. Maybe he is already there, maybe not. But your post doesn't help the matter one bit. Obviously you don't care as it doesn't affect you in the slightest and you are more interested in talking trash. Naph explained above why we are doing this. But hey, keep pushing it. You can be the straw that broke the camel's back, and then feel great about being one of the few that finished the job and helped ensure people's isk was lost. Right now things don't look too crash hot but there is still some hope. Give us the decency of keeping it to yourself and not calling a scam until you can factually state it as such.
Rascyr Tempered Steel Legion	Posted - 2007.11.19 18:18:00 - [336] Originally by: John Newport Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Wylker I'm so glad I posted today, I was hoping to get trolled a bit before lunch. On a side note, whats with all the isk seller spam sigs? I didn't even realize it was different people until just now. LOL. Calling 100% justified annoyance and criticism trolling... you are really on fire today! The reason to show you posted on the 13th was to show that you could have posted in this thread on the 13th as well. But you didn't. You chose to engage in "nerd-rage" on CAOD and get yourself banned instead of informing your investors of the status of your IPO. Then, you chose not to reply in your mailing list to questions being raised. You also chose not to have a friend or corp mate post a message for you. You also had a friend of yours coming out and stating you should scam everyone. Then you have the temerity to claim people are trolling by holding your feet to the fire? LOL I won't deny agreeing with the things you say here Shadarle, but you said you had nothing invested in this venture. Perhaps it's not fair to throw oil on an already huge fire here and have the investors and Wylker work it out first, before we "neutrals" get judgemental. John Newport Small Time Investor. This!
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.19 18:19:00 - [337] Useless specultation is a waste of time and energy. Wait for his report tonight. Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.11.19 18:47:00 - [338] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 19/11/2007 17:41:08 Since witty short posts dont seem to go well, some explanation: A total nobody asks for 40b or so of ISK, shows absolutely nothing for about 5 months, and ridicules any criticsm whatsoever as trolling. The simple fact that he still has your cash without paying an ISK: SCAM. I dont need to be Wylker to know that. You didnt get what you paid for. And about people flamming Wylker. He managed to find investors for this business plan, and he (in theory) should be ever thankfull. Instead he is insulting and arrogant. For my tastes,the "OMG lets give him one more chance" to the "find out alts, find out friends, find out loose associates, find out one-time gangmates, then grief them out of EvE, then snap and hire RL mercs to camp his RL home" ratio should be approaching zero. [1:n ~ zero for large n] Ricdics post above is the perfect example of what i am talking about. I never wrote that detailed essay on eve investments, maybe i will after Trinity. So i dont claim wisdom. However, this thread makes it all too easy. You are all just giving scammers ideas. edit: thanks for quoting my post before i could edit all those damn speelling mistakes out... who is your main? ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2007.11.19 18:57:00 - [339] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 19/11/2007 19:03:17 Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe No, my post is an example of someone looking to not push Wylker over the edge. Look at what i said in my first post in this thread. Now look at your reaction. Now granted, i dont like to spell out things, even complicated concepts, but look at it this way: how is "investment" ever supposed to work properly when investors are behaving like powerless, self-humiliating victims? This thread is a perfect metaphor for the entire financial scene. You give someone ISK. And then you are at HIS mercy. Total reversal from how people expect investments to work. So from a roleplaying PoV, an investor is a slave / beggar / victim - and from a metagaming / powergaming PoV, there are 100 things a lot better then shares. While its true that the only way to really hurt someone in eve is to find out his RL identity and do shenigans with that information, in this special case you could at least have fun with those Aftermath guys (IG of course). Too bad that "pay up or veld mining in empire" is no longer a threat, but a promise for 0.0 Alliances. Originally by: SiJira who is your main? I could tell you, but would you believe me?
SiJira	Posted - 2007.11.19 19:07:00 - [340] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 19/11/2007 19:03:17 Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe No, my post is an example of someone looking to not push Wylker over the edge. Look at what i said in my first post in this thread. Now look at your reaction. Now granted, i dont like to spell out things, even complicated concepts, but look at it this way: how is "investment" ever supposed to work properly when investors are behaving like powerless, self-humiliating victims? This thread is a perfect metaphor for the entire financial scene. You give someone ISK. And then you are at HIS mercy. Total reversal from how people expect investments to work. So from a roleplaying PoV, an investor is a slave / beggar / victim - and from a metagaming / powergaming PoV, there are 100 things a lot better then shares. While its true that the only way to really hurt someone in eve is to find out his RL identity and do shenigans with that information, in this special case you could at least have fun with those Aftermath guys (IG of course). Too bad that "pay up or veld mining in empire" is no longer a threat, but a promise for 0.0 Alliances. Originally by: SiJira who is your main? I could tell you, but would you believe me? go away flamer ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.19 19:08:00 - [341] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers This thread is a perfect metaphor for the entire financial scene. You give someone ISK. And then you are at HIS mercy. Total reversal from how people expect investments to work. So from a roleplaying PoV, an investor is a slave / beggar / victim - and from a metagaming / powergaming PoV, there are 100 things a lot better then shares. We have a winner. Thread over. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! (updated)
Nicho Void Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion	Posted - 2007.11.19 19:22:00 - [342] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Argenton Sayvers This thread is a perfect metaphor for the entire financial scene. You give someone ISK. And then you are at HIS mercy. Total reversal from how people expect investments to work. So from a roleplaying PoV, an investor is a slave / beggar / victim - and from a metagaming / powergaming PoV, there are 100 things a lot better then shares. We have a winner. Thread over. Agreed. My first and last investment attempt. ---------------
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.19 20:47:00 - [343] Originally by: Nicho Void My first and last investment attempt. My first also, but plenty of good ones have come along before and since. Don't lose heart altogether. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Richard Kitan United Space Republic Research	Posted - 2007.11.19 20:50:00 - [344] This was my first investment also, but I learned a bit from it, and have also found some solid investments since then - FRPB in particular. I wish I had invested a lot more in that. -- Richard Kitan Builder of Stuff
Mining Bunnz ElArms International	Posted - 2007.11.20 00:44:00 - [345] Let me start by prefacing this comment with a simple statement. I am an investor in PSI, holding 250m worth of shares. By no means a big amount, but then, its actually 1/160th of the total raised capital. I would strongly suggest that anyone who doesn't or wont preface their comments with a statement of their level of investment simply do not post. Those who do can stand on your high horse and jump up and down as much as you like. You CHOSE not to invest in a plan that involved an overcrowded market. You made your comments (in a lot of cases) known well in advance, now you have NO REASON to be involved in the decision making process for this investment vehicle. There are no public shares for sale, they are not listed on exchanges. I'll be fair and credit most of you with good intentions, believing that investors deserve better. As one of those investors, I'm here to say that I can and will protect my own interests far better than any group of forumers who think that my interests may be slighted. If you are not acting directly on behalf of someone who holds, or used to hold, PSI shares, then you are not positively contributing to this thread anymore. Its that simple. Please stop. I agree with the point Ric is making. The majority of attacks of Wylker's character here come from people not invested in his operation, which makes me wonder if I should be crediting you with good intentions, or whether there are alterior motives here. Wylker, Bad business sense, a nasty nerf to your product range, all this can be discussed and worked out. Not talking to your investors (and I'm sorry bud, the ingame mailing list is not an option, given where it was taken I will NOT be signing up again) is not so clever, as you can no doubt see from the results here. Looking forward to hearing what you have to say tonight and in a round about way, backing your decision to ignore comments from people who are not invested in your operations.
Wylker Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii The Church.	Posted - 2007.11.20 01:30:00 - [346] Originally by: Mining Bunnz Let me start by prefacing this comment with a simple statement. I am an investor in PSI, holding 250m worth of shares. By no means a big amount, but then, its actually 1/160th of the total raised capital. I would strongly suggest that anyone who doesn't or wont preface their comments with a statement of their level of investment simply do not post. Those who do can stand on your high horse and jump up and down as much as you like. You CHOSE not to invest in a plan that involved an overcrowded market. You made your comments (in a lot of cases) known well in advance, now you have NO REASON to be involved in the decision making process for this investment vehicle. There are no public shares for sale, they are not listed on exchanges. I'll be fair and credit most of you with good intentions, believing that investors deserve better. As one of those investors, I'm here to say that I can and will protect my own interests far better than any group of forumers who think that my interests may be slighted. If you are not acting directly on behalf of someone who holds, or used to hold, PSI shares, then you are not positively contributing to this thread anymore. Its that simple. Please stop. I agree with the point Ric is making. The majority of attacks of Wylker's character here come from people not invested in his operation, which makes me wonder if I should be crediting you with good intentions, or whether there are alterior motives here. Wylker, Bad business sense, a nasty nerf to your product range, all this can be discussed and worked out. Not talking to your investors (and I'm sorry bud, the ingame mailing list is not an option, given where it was taken I will NOT be signing up again) is not so clever, as you can no doubt see from the results here. Looking forward to hearing what you have to say tonight and in a round about way, backing your decision to ignore comments from people who are not invested in your operations. This was nice to read, thanks. Portsmouth Shipyards IPO Sales Portsmouth Shipyards IPO Discussion
Wylker Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii The Church.	Posted - 2007.11.20 01:41:00 - [347] Ok my original inclination was to lay out where I thought everything went wrong. However, after reading over this thread again I guess I really don't see the point of trying to explain. I'll of course take full responsibility for dropping the ball with communication with you guys. If you want I can make a bunch of excuses as to what I had going on and/or reasons why I fell off the face of eve-o for a while (however, I doubt anyone wants that). That being said, I have managed to put together two or three ideas that I think can help keep this a profitable venture. I know we all entered into this together with the idea to make some money, and frankly I had firm commitments from buyers that would have allowed us to break even my very high estimates for returns. All that aside, lets look at the here and now: I hold around 60 billion worth of assets from the isk generated from this IPO. These take the form of blueprints, minerals, a freighter, and some POS assets (3 large faction towers + fittings). I know that some people would like to see this all liquidated and returned to investors. This is a possibility. However know that there can be no "partial" liquidation. These assets were invested in building carrier and mothership class capitals, and can not be easily broken apart. Minerals of course can be liquidated, and can generally be done with little threat of loss. The blueprints however, represent a very difficult asset to divest of right now. With the same problems that faced this business, the premium prices that researched blueprints used to get are all but non-existent. Of course, I could be wrong here and someone may help us break back even on these prints. With all that in mind, I could embark on an effort to liquidate all of PSIs assets and try to begin repurchasing shares. I would really like to avoid this. The other two options both involve jumping on the gravy train that is approaching with Rev 3. The ability to corner the new market on new T2 ships will offer some spectacular short term and regular long term revenues to anyone that can pull it off. I have had some input from some of the shareholders that make both Jump Freighters, T2 battleships, and Rorquals seem like very smart investitures for the foreseeable future. This venture is in a very positive position, as I already have assets and characters in place to immediately capitalize on these items as soon as they hit live servers. I'd like to open this thread to some discussion from actual shareholders as to the possibility of changing direction and getting some of those returns we all originally wanted to see. Keep in mind that I accounted for over 1/3 of the original investment so am as tied in to this project as anyone else. At the end of the day on Saturday, I will initiate a vote for all shareholders to make a decision that I will abide by as per the future of the IPO. If you have questions, feel free to post them and I will answer them as I can. Portsmouth Shipyards IPO Sales Portsmouth Shipyards IPO Discussion
Ricdic's Hoe	Posted - 2007.11.20 01:54:00 - [348] Well I would like to see a more formal idea rather than just "rorqual production etc". However, for rorqaul, jump freighters etc, you still need to liquidate existing stocks. As a shareholder I want the ability to remove myself from this investment. I would like to see at least a small portion (ie 5-10b) worth of assets liquidated, and a buyback being made available on this. That way people who really want to go can do so peacefully. Those of us who are really unhappy are likely at a point where they don't care if you get 5% returns or 50% monthly returns. I simply don't feel comfortable having any of my money in there. That's not to say that others won't give you a chance to prove yourself. However I do want to see a portion of funds placed aside for a buyback as that's the only real interest I have at this point. Glad to see you back either way.
Wylker Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii The Church.	Posted - 2007.11.20 02:29:00 - [349] I should probably clarify. I have specific plans for production, one would be for Rorquals, one is for Rorquals + T2 freighters, and one is for Rorquals + T2 freighters + new T2 cruisers and battleships. I didn't want to go overboard with details until people had a chance to discuss. Portsmouth Shipyards IPO Sales Portsmouth Shipyards IPO Discussion
Kitex Blacktag Test Labs	Posted - 2007.11.20 03:02:00 - [350] Originally by: Wylker With all that in mind, I could embark on an effort to liquidate all of PSIs assets and try to begin repurchasing shares. I would really like to avoid this. I'll be voting for complete liquidation, on the most reasonably expeditious time line. I think you should consider Ricdic's offer of assistance to that end. Your other options may indeed be profitable. But without overtly polluting this post with hostility, I'd rather invest in those plans with someone else at the helm. Blacktag - Buy ships / Fittings / Drones / Ammo in BULK with Delivery!
Richard Kitan United Space Republic Research	Posted - 2007.11.20 03:27:00 - [351] I don't own many shares - only 150m worth. Personally, I'd like to see some sort of buy back program - even if it isn't at full IPO price. I've had the money tied up in this venture for a couple months now, and at this point, even if the best business plan ever was presented, I'd rather put the money elsewhere. If for some reason a buy back isn't possible, I'd like at the very least to see PSI listed on RESX so I can make some sort of attempt at recouping my investment. I do seem to recall the IPO said a buyback would be instituted somewhere around the 60 day mark, which I believe we have passed, so that's what I'd really like to see. -- Richard Kitan Builder of Stuff
cosmoray	Posted - 2007.11.20 04:14:00 - [352] Might help if you gave more detail about assets. 1. Minerals - what and how much 2. What BPO's exactly 3. POS and fittings 4. Ships Will help shareholders decide if a partial liquidation may make sense, and a discussion can be made about the BPO/BPC's. p.s ALT post of a private investor
LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.20 06:36:00 - [353] Originally by: Wylker I should probably clarify. I have specific plans for production, one would be for Rorquals, one is for Rorquals + T2 freighters, and one is for Rorquals + T2 freighters + new T2 cruisers and battleships. I didn't want to go overboard with details until people had a chance to discuss. Is rorquals profitable? From talking to quite alot who are stuck with Rorquals they sell(Including me), they are really not worth the minimal profit, for waiting weeks and weeks to sell one. Selling just Rorqual's wont cut it. T2 Freighter + Rorqual? Depends. I wouldnt count on a 15-17% ROI per month from that T2 Freighter + Rorqual + T2 cruisers? Might be better But what makes me wonder, is how you have 3 "plans", first being slightly stupid, next being very generic and solely based on speculation, and the third even more. Wylker, your plan said that after 60 days of full production, buy-back would be in place. What happend? Proud nublet of more public ISK than * CAP4U - The Plan
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Estate	Posted - 2007.11.20 07:56:00 - [354] I'm not involved but I want to say something for the record: 1) Thank you for posting Wylker, this is a good thing. 2) I see the posts since he posted are healthy, let's keep them that way. 3) I think that a more detailed explanation will be fully appreciated by those who actually care, and those who don't care can burn anyway. You can always go into dialogue with the advice that will surely ensue, or ignore it if you're not interested, but I think that such details would help to leave a more positive legacy.
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.20 08:33:00 - [355] I dunno, if he goes into excuses for everything in the past people will counter them and the whole argument starts again (as happened when he advised on the forum ban). I say leave the past where it is, and either work your ass off to reshape the future, or pack up shop. Either way a buyback should be offered without question for people who want to get out. Just offering it will get a few notches back onto your reputation and will limit those people still calling it a scam. I really would like to talk to you in-game/msn/email whatever Wylker. I am available via MSN about 19 hours a day ([email protected]). Please give me a yell. Need Empire Research Slots. Click here
Letias Caldari Teikoku Trade Conglomerate Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2007.11.20 09:49:00 - [356] Buyback please.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:43:00 - [357] The returns on Rorquals alone are not so good just at the moment. From my own calculations, I estimate an ROI of about 8% from keeping 2 BPOs in constant production with 1 set of component BPOs (yes, this is possible). Demand may well pick up, though, once the carrier nerfs hit. Jump Freighters are a massive gamble, and producing them would involve purchasing lots of new BPOs; at the moment, it seems likely that a Rorqual might be the better option for a lot of people. T2 battleship production would be much easier to get started; I'd say go for it. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
SonOfAGhost Minmatar Munitions and Tactical Assets Repository Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.20 14:07:00 - [358] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro T2 battleship production would be much easier to get started; I'd say go for it. Easier to get started? Probably. The least bit profitable beyond the 1st week after patch? Not likely. Can't think of many builders/traders that AREN'T planning on jumping on that particular band wagon. Yes prices will remain high after the initial rush, but the only ones making a profit will be the ones selling T2 resources/components. From what I can see, many of the folks that are pulling out of carrier production are burning the same amount of minerals as before doing smaller ships already. Hurricanes for example I'm moving 20+/day just buying up below-cost sell orders and relisting. T2 BS production is going to be an irresistable draw for the bad-at-math crowd. Rorqual profits may or may not stink as bad as carriers, I haven't looked at it myself, but it can't be worse than the new T2 ships will be within a month. Who needs the Nikkei when there's EBay? Lag? GTFOOJ!
Strobe S	Posted - 2007.11.20 16:26:00 - [359] Glad to see we now have some communication. I can handle a business going wrong and never invest what I cannot afford to lose but the communication was just too poor (the mailing list was a complete joke) for me to have confidence in leaving my money in place if another option is possible. Buy back is therefore my preferred option.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.20 19:16:00 - [360] Well, the profit per unit or Rorquals is quite good (~400m or so) but it takes masses of capital to afford all the component BPOs, and you can only make 2 per month per Rorqual BPO. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats

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