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Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.30 22:19:00 - [31] Originally by: zayanka i dont agree with u.... try this ship : cerberus 5 hams or heavys 1 large dg shield booster, 1 em, 1 med injector, 1 em, 1 dg warp disruptor 2 bcu, 1 rcu t2, 1 pdu t2 (or t2 rcu for hams) 2 em rigs with this ship u can fly solo and get some kills, also nice for small gangs Don't know if the typo (2x "1 em") covers up an invuln or a web/mwd, but you need web or mwd to keep a target in scram range. _____ Heat Warfare
Murtific Caldari Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.30 22:28:00 - [32] Edited by: Murtific on 30/06/2007 22:27:09 Originally by: Serric Being Caldari in a PvP situation is NOT the end of the world, as long as you are not flying solo. In a gang or fleet, caldari ships can serve very well in many different capacities. Dedicated EW boats, arguably the best interceptor available, nasty tanks (if done right, check the forums), and one of the best sniping battleships in the game. If you want to be a solo PvP specialist then yes you need to fly Gal or Min.. but if you are part of a gang or fleet you will definitely contribute and carry your own weight if you understand your role and do it well. Take a look around at some of the elite corporation's kill boards. You will see many pilots having a successful PvP career as missile spammers. Yarrr =] Rev 1 passive drake ftw =]
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.30 22:53:00 - [33] Edited by: Tovarishch on 30/06/2007 23:00:54 The problem isn't Caldari ships in PVP... the problem is missiles in PVP. Read the follow link to a thread of mine - Threadage PS. I will add that I believe Caldari railboats need a tiny bit of love. They simply lack enough turret hardpoints. For example, it's ridiculous to me that an Eagle provides almost the exact same DPS as a Ferox. The recent Caldari railboat thread provides plenty of insight into the problem... so I won't hijack this thread in regards to rails. How can find the thread here. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.30 23:01:00 - [34] Edited by: Incantare on 30/06/2007 23:00:45 To quote an old thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=496579&page=2 Originally by: Wrayeth Let me repost each with the balance right next to them: 1) Range ---> Delayed DPS 2) Consistancy ---> No wrecking shots 3) Damage Switching ---> Low DPS However, #3 fails on the ships with a bonus to kinetic missile damage. Quote: You dont get stuff for free. Want missiles to perform like drones? Well, only if you want CCP to nerf missiles. I agree that you don't get stuff for free. At the same time, you don't get penalized in relation to other ships of the same class without gaining something to make up for it. This is why the kinetic bonus is an issue. If the kinetic bonus was changed to missile damage or missile RoF I think Caldari missile boats would be fine, a simple solution.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.30 23:03:00 - [35] Edited by: Tovarishch on 30/06/2007 23:03:13 To quote an old thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=496579&page=2 Originally by: Wrayeth Let me repost each with the balance right next to them: 1) Range ---> Delayed DPS 2) Consistancy ---> No wrecking shots 3) Damage Switching ---> Low DPS However, #3 fails on the ships with a bonus to kinetic missile damage. Quote: You dont get stuff for free. Want missiles to perform like drones? Well, only if you want CCP to nerf missiles. I agree that you don't get stuff for free. At the same time, you don't get penalized in relation to other ships of the same class without gaining something to make up for it. This is why the kinetic bonus is an issue. If the kinetic bonus was changed to missile damage or missile RoF I think Caldari missile boats would be fine, a simple solution. All that does is make Caldari missile boats even better in PVE (absolutely not needed)... while ignoring their weaknesses in PVP. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.30 23:05:00 - [36] Edited by: Incantare on 30/06/2007 23:08:31 It would not change anything for people using ravens for PvE while increasing effective damage for ships with a kinetic bonus.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.30 23:09:00 - [37] Edited by: Tovarishch on 30/06/2007 23:07:44 Originally by: Incantare Sure it does, it increases effective DPS. Yes, in both PVE and PVP. What you fail to understand is that Caldari missile boats already completely dominate the field in PVE. Do you want to see more Ravens running missions and ratting? The problem with missiles in PVP is not DPS... it's flight time at fleet engagement range. I suggest you read the thread that I linked in my first post to my thread in the 'Features and Ideas' forum. Increasing raw DPS does nothing but make the problem worse. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.30 23:50:00 - [38] Originally by: Tovarishch What you fail to understand is that Caldari missile boats already completely dominate the field in PVE. Do you want to see more Ravens running missions and ratting? What you fail to understand is that changing the kinetic bonus does not affect Ravens because, you guessed it, they are already free to chose damage types. So who would it benefit? Lvl 3 mission runners, briefly, until they inevitably start running lvl 4s in a Raven, because it's more profitable. I also believe that PvE and PvP should be balanced seperately and that efforts should be made to improve other race's mission running ability but gimping Caldari's ability to PvP does not look like balance to me. Quote: The problem with missiles in PVP is not DPS... it's flight time at fleet engagement range. I suggest you read the thread that I linked in my first post to my thread in the 'Features and Ideas' forum. Increasing raw DPS does nothing but make the problem worse. This seems like a case of trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Missiles are poor for fleet by design, even with greatly increased velocity they would still be inferior to gunboats at extreme ranges. Caldari have a gunboat line for fleet. If missile ships have a place in PvP it isn't in fleet but in small to medium gang where flight time is much less of a disadvantage and where individual DPS does matter. You say it ignores their weakness in PvP but low DPS is a huge weakness the flip side of which should be the abilitiy to chose damamge type resulting in good effective DPS, but that isn't the case on all ships. As is, even in gang there are few situations where a Drake / Caracal are not outperformed by ships from the other races. I read your thread when you initially posted it, I did not reply because I disagree.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.01 00:03:00 - [39] Edited by: Tovarishch on 01/07/2007 00:06:28 Originally by: Incantare Originally by: Tovarishch What you fail to understand is that Caldari missile boats already completely dominate the field in PVE. Do you want to see more Ravens running missions and ratting? What you fail to understand is that changing the kinetic bonus does not affect Ravens because, you guessed it, they are already free to chose damage types. So who would it benefit? Lvl 3 mission runners, briefly, until they inevitably start running lvl 4s in a Raven, because it's more profitable. I also believe that PvE and PvP should be balanced seperately and that efforts should be made to improve other race's mission running ability but gimping Caldari's ability to PvP does not look like balance to me. Quote: The problem with missiles in PVP is not DPS... it's flight time at fleet engagement range. I suggest you read the thread that I linked in my first post to my thread in the 'Features and Ideas' forum. Increasing raw DPS does nothing but make the problem worse. This seems like a case of trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Missiles are poor for fleet by design, even with greatly increased velocity they would still be inferior to gunboats at extreme ranges. Caldari have a gunboat line for fleet. If missile ships have a place in PvP it isn't in fleet but in small to medium gang where flight time is much less of a disadvantage and where individual DPS does matter. You say it ignores their weakness in PvP but low DPS is a huge weakness the flip side of which should be the abilitiy to chose damamge type resulting in good effective DPS, but that isn't the case on all ships. As is, even in gang there are few situations where a Drake / Caracal are not outperformed by ships from the other races. I read your thread when you initially posted it, I did not reply because I disagree. Missiles do not suffer from low DPS. Where in the world you get that idea I have no clue. Run the numbers on any missile boat... and you'll find that they are very much in line with turret ships. So, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. It's obvious to me that you are starting from a flawed premise... and solving a problem that does not exist. Regardless, while missile ships are indeed on par with turrets for DPS... missiles suffer from delayed damage due to flight time. The only advantage to compensate for this is the selection from all four damage types. This advantage does nothing in PVP. Missiles are the only single, primary weapon system that suffer from such a major disadvantage... with a PVE-only advantage to cover for it. I'd say more... but my thread in the 'Features and Ideas' forum sums my thoughts up. There's no point in repeating it further here. If you disagree with it then speak up in that thread and give me an explanation or some numbers as to why. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Atomic Atty Infinitus Opes	Posted - 2007.07.01 00:21:00 - [40] Take a raven and fit it like that : 6x Arba Siege 1x Improved Cloaking Device T2 ( If you want to... ) 1x Named MWD 1x Scrambler 24k 1x Med Electrochemical Cap Injector 2x Sensor Booster 1x Target Painter 3x Overdrive T2* 2x BCS T2 3x Polycarbon T1 rigs* * = Or any other combination making your Raven's top speed to match as near as possible your torps' max speed. Now get a spot 120kms away from your friendly tacklers, tell them to get off the target's shields only. 1/ Lock the target and load the torps consequently ( This will only work with T1 torps, as Javelin are too fast and Rage have too short range ). 2/ Throttle full speed, MWD on, aligning your target ( DO NOT APPROACH !). 3/ Begin to unleash the torps when you're around their max flight range. 4/ At 24kms, switch both Scrambler and TP on. 5/ Watch the fireworks and your target go poof. YW. ---------- My blog
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.01 00:52:00 - [41] Tovarishch, I'll take you up on that and post in your thread once I've run the numbers. I think the source of our disagreement is me being focused on short range combat where flight time is nearly irrelevant but missile damage is lacking whereas you are focusing on long range where missile damage would be fine - if it weren't for flight time. These are two different issues.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.01 01:03:00 - [42] Edited by: Tovarishch on 01/07/2007 01:02:33 Originally by: Incantare Tovarishch, I'll take you up on that and post in your thread once I've run the numbers. I think the source of our disagreement is me being focused on short range combat where flight time is nearly irrelevant but missile damage is lacking whereas you are focusing on long range where missile damage would be fine - if it weren't for flight time. These are two different issues. Use this SS that Naughty Boy came up with a while back. There was a lot of debate back then regarding missile DPS. Many people use this SS to dispense with some of the tedious math of working out proper DPS. Link to Spreadsheet Hope it helps. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.01 02:48:00 - [43] Actually, there is a second, extremely important benefit for missiles in pvp. Only caldari can not use it. It is the fact that a missile's effectiveness is UNAFFECTED by the speed of the ship firing it. Conversely, a gunship tracking suffers from its own great speed. Why don't caldari benefit from that? Because their speed sucks. Except for the Crow, which is good but not imbalanced. It should teach the other Caldari missileships a lesson. All Caldari really need for PVP, which would NOT imbalance them further in PVE is slightly lower mass and slightly better speed. SLIGHTLY, just to be inline with Gallente. You might just be able to use these missile advantages then (see NanoCerberus)
Luna Nilaya Black-Mesa THE V I G I L	Posted - 2007.07.01 02:54:00 - [44] Rook and Falcon FTW.
AnKahn	Posted - 2007.07.01 04:02:00 - [45] The concept of abandoning missile training to focus on drones and/or gunnery is not new. I suspect part of what fuels the perception that Caldari suck at PvP is the fact that many players abandon missiles before they get good at them. However, if the "anti missile"crowd is right then many of us are wasting our time and we need to settle this with some authority. After all even with low skill point pilots the rats arn't getting any smarter so i'm sure I could stop training missiles today and still rat effectivly. Flying a Drake tho (and soon again the Raven) I find in a dueling situation not to be at any disadvantage except, of course, in a real fight my opponant would warp off if losing when I usually am scrammed and webbed. The Raven uses range very effectively. In dueling situations people usually ask me to fly tward them so they can hit me. The passive shield tank (and I think we will see more ways to take advantage of this form of tank as the devs don't really seem to want to nerf NOS) means the dual rep set of ship runs out of cap boosters before the passive tank breaks unless very short range ammo (and therefore you need a speed mod to counter, still an interesting fight). The four nos/drone boats just dont have the dps. (Better have some tackle in that situation). So yea, 1v1 Caldari cannot fit a ship that can handle every possible opponant. But missiles are damage over time, passive shield tanks love you long time, and your cargo bay only can hold a finite number of cap charges. SO, help us out guys. You almighty 30 mill SP vets do some dueling and give us some win and loss numbers. SETTLE THIS, please. I'll very happily quit training missiles now if I did not have the gnawing feeling that too many have abandoned missiles too soon. Thanks forum warriors for all your advise.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.01 04:48:00 - [46] It's not that one system is better or worse -- they're different. At close range, blasters are better than missiles. At long range, missile damage is delayed so that you start doing damage a couple volleys after a long range gunner starts hitting you. Normally, though, you do more damage at range, but because it's delayed the DPS measured from the start of the engagement will take a while to increase. (That, and if you or your target warps off or is destroyed while a missile is in flight, the damage never actually happens). If you use missiles at medium range they're very good. Unlike close-range gunnery, though, this takes teamwork, which is why people don't like it. It's really funny to be in a channel full of carebearish folks trying to organize a pvp gang. You get 40 drakes/ravens and 0 tacklers. _____ Heat Warfare
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.01 04:54:00 - [47] Originally by: AnKahn Edited by: AnKahn on 01/07/2007 04:13:17 The concept of abandoning missile training to focus on drones and/or gunnery is not new. I suspect part of what fuels the perception that Caldari suck at PvP is the fact that many players abandon missiles before they get good at them. However, if the "anti missile"crowd is right then many of us are wasting our time and we need to settle this with some authority. After all even with low skill point pilots the rats arn't getting any smarter so i'm sure I could stop training missiles today and still rat effectivly. Flying a Drake tho (and soon again the Raven) I find in a dueling situation not to be at any disadvantage except, of course, in a real fight my opponant would warp off if losing when I usually am scrammed and webbed. The Raven uses range very effectively. In dueling situations people usually ask me to fly tward them so they can hit me. Of course "gate warfare" is the nature of most EvE combat so usually your Raven is nose to nose with someone using short range/ high DPS ammo therefore I guess being a sniper is situational PvP.The passive shield tank (and I think we will see more ways to take advantage of this form of tank as the devs don't really seem to want to nerf NOS) means the dual rep setup of ship runs out of cap boosters before the passive tank breaks unless he's using very short range ammo (and therefore you need a speed mod to counter, still an interesting fight). The four nos/drone boats just dont have the dps. (Better have some tackle in that situation). So yea, 1v1 Caldari cannot fit a ship that can handle every possible opponant. But missiles are damage over time, passive shield tanks love you long time, and your enemy's cargo bay only can hold a finite number of cap charges. SO, help us out guys. You almighty 30 mill SP vets do some dueling and give us some win and loss numbers. SETTLE THIS, please. I'll very happily quit training missiles now if I did not have the gnawing feeling that too many have abandoned missiles too soon. Thanks forum warriors for all your advise. Edited to make slightly more sense. Hey AnKahn, I'd go into my skills, but I'm fairly private with my character info. I'm coming up on four years in the game as a full-time PVPer (part time PVE)... and I'm very, very specialized in everything Caldari. I have alts to fly other stuff. The problem with what you propose is that very, very little of EVE is 1v1. Duels play almost no role in the game (theoretically or practically). Quite a bit of the game has moved into the realm of regional warfare in 0.0. The vast majority of combat in such situations takes place at range (100k to 200k). At those ranges anyone found bringing a Raven will be immediately ridiculed... and probably destroyed by his wingmen for the folly of bringing a knife to a gunfight. This is where the shortcomings of missiles are brought into VERY clear relief. I've mentioned it myriad times in other posts... but missile flight time has no compensating advantage to make up for it in PVP. I'd go further into it, but I've already posted a link to my thread in the other forum regarding these issues. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
wictro	Posted - 2007.07.01 15:39:00 - [48] Tovarishch's thread says it better than i did. I was also crying about the lack of interesting ship-classes to fly, but thats the same thing for all races. Maybe someday you can design and manufacture your own ships from modules. That would be a day of joy and bliss.
AnKahn	Posted - 2007.07.01 17:15:00 - [49] Messaged received Tovarichch. This is why I spend time reading and posting on the forums, for the once a week I find a wise post. I'm at the point where I can fly the best moneymaking ship in the game (non-pirate) and was wondering about command ships, etc as the next thing to do. You have inspired me to train rails (full bore not half way like most Caldari). The Rohk My next ship (after buying my 4th Raven). Ratting till I can use rails at 160 KM. I will read your other post as soon as I have the chance. Real life and all. Many thanks for giving a lowbie some hope of usefullness. I like being Caldari.
eXtas BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.07.01 17:50:00 - [50] raven 4tw! no need to say more
LMAAAOOOO	Posted - 2007.07.02 14:27:00 - [51] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: LMAAAOOOO Originally by: xHalcyonx Caldari are gang ships for PvP, as are most shield tankers. Get used to the idea. TBH I'd say Gallente are better gang wise aswell, in some cases atleast, only advantage I see is that caldari gets more mid slots for Eward, I'd rather see a 950 dps Myrm in my gang rather than a 250 dps Drake. Or a 1.6k dps Hyperion rather than a 600 dps Raven. There exists no such thing... ...plus that Raven hits out to 80km for full damage, the Hyperion with Ion II's for example, has a 5.6km optimal. With Neutron II's and 3 MFS II and two damage rigs, it goes to 1.6k dps with Null (This is max skills though) And your point remains valid with the 80km range. But a lot of pvp is within web range. Ravens are great if you use them as the same role as Burn Eden though ______________________________________________ some guy telling a noob that pirates doesnt check their age before attacking "ooh! an age quip! very clever,I'm probably older than you darling! xx
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.02 16:56:00 - [52] Edited by: Aramendel on 02/07/2007 16:58:06 Originally by: LMAAAOOOO With Neutron II's and 3 MFS II and two damage rigs, it goes to 1.6k dps with Null You mean void I guess. Null is the lower dps longrange ammo. But, no it doesn't. Damage rigs share stacking penalities with damage mods. You get around 1145 dps from the guns with void and 255 dps from the drones, which gives you 1400 dps. And a raven in a similar gank outfit, 6 siege with rage torps + max dps drone combo does 995 dps. With a 30k range compared to the 7k optimal + 6k falloff of the neutron blaster with void.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:50:00 - [53] The raven also requires two painters to deal that damage on a battleship - the mega does not.
xenodia Gallente Shadowrun Company	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:02:00 - [54] Originally by: wictro Edited by: wictro on 30/06/2007 14:25:15 Edited by: wictro on 30/06/2007 14:18:49 Okies, I have trained my missile skills for 3.95MIL SP, and I'm slowly beginning to realize that it was a bad idea. I hate all kind of PvE "action"(is there such), and im no fan of fleet/gang warfare. I've trained BattleCruisers up to LVL 5, and i can't find a ship class to train anymore. The raven adds little to nothing compared to drake. The Cerberus adds little to nothing compared to drake. Assault ships are even worse than Cerberus. Ceptors and Dictors, well, no drones < Ceptors and Dictors with drones. Command ships? What in earth would i use them for? Recons? Same thing. That leaves Carriers ( I have about 200.000SP in drones, woot :P), motherships, barges, industrial and some others, that ain't a viable option either. I have had the BattleCruiser skill since i dont know when, after that i trained cov-ops, and now im in a dead end. I feel like i have wasted 7 months to train completely useless skills, and now i would have to train about the same duration for Gunnery and drones. Plus Gallente/Amarr ships. Where to go from here? We need more ship classes. Making all the Caldari ships PvE is a bore, and should be mentioned when creating characters/log on ;D I guess i'll cross my fingers and wait for a new ship/class, even tough it propably will take a very long time. Stupid, useless, shield tanking, no ganking caldari. If your not a carebear, do not even look at caldari ships! over and out, -wictro Caldari ships are great in gangs in pvp... not so great solo (with a few exceptions). If you want to solo pvp, go minmatar, or certain gallente ships.
Joshua Lonestar	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:13:00 - [55] Originally by: Incantare Originally by: DrElJefeMD Google burn eden's killboard. Been on that receiving end. No - caldari ships are not worthless. Regards I don't think anyone is saying Caldari ships are worthless but rather that they fall short when you look at the competition. BE's ability to make good use of the Raven in a particular situation isn't a good argument to the balance of the race as a whole. Look up multiple killboards and look at the number of kills by other races and then look at Caldari, that gives a better perspective. Of course, one could also argue a Caldari ship isnt a simple "hit MWD, approach, fire guns" type of ship. In other words, one could say to fly Caldari you need to actually put some thought into it. At first I thought Gallente were overpowered, now I just think of them as the easy button.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:22:00 - [56] Originally by: eXtas raven 4tw! no need to say more Yeah i was about to say, time for a BE response. Missiles are useful in PVP, 99% just fail to see it. Try fitting any battleship besides the raven to do 500 DPS (cruises) / 650 DPS (torps) at 100km range plzkthx.
Kenneys RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:29:00 - [57] Yep caldari is a waste of time for most cases if you pvp. The main problem is that shield tanking takes mid slots. Mid slots = all the nifty pvp modules.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:39:00 - [58] Originally by: Kenneys Yep caldari is a waste of time for most cases if you pvp. The main problem is that shield tanking takes mid slots. Mid slots = all the nifty pvp modules. Then dont shieldtank. Is that so hard lol?
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:39:00 - [59] Originally by: Joshua Lonestar At first I thought Gallente were overpowered, now I just think of them as the easy button. I would rather that there be no easy mode and hard mode, but that each race be equally competitive. Originally by: Sokratesz Missiles are useful in PVP, 99% just fail to see it. Try fitting any battleship besides the raven to do 500 DPS (cruises) / 650 DPS (torps) at 100km range plzkthx. That's the theory. In practice: the target is tackled, the raven fires its torpedoes from 100 km away. The target goes to a pub, has a couple pints, then goes for a walk only to come back, kill the tackler and warp off leaving the torpedoes harmlessly gliding in space. Exaggeration of course but you get the idea. Torpedoes are slow and it takes them 45 seconds to hit at the edge of their range, that's a huge disadvantage. As for a ship dealing 600 dps at 100 km, try a tachyaddon. It may need faction crystals to get that dps but it is doable, on the plus side it hits instantaneously, and not in 45 seconds. I don't know if other ships can do it too, but I wouldn't be surprised.
Judas Lonestar Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.03 02:09:00 - [60] Originally by: Incantare Edited by: Incantare on 02/07/2007 18:45:25 Originally by: Joshua Lonestar At first I thought Gallente were overpowered, now I just think of them as the easy button. I would rather that there be no easy mode and hard mode, but that each race be equally competitive. That will never happen until you see low slot tackle gear. Simple fact is Caldari tanks are shield based and shield tank based modules are mid slot items right along with tackling gear. People can **** and moan all they want about Caldari chooing between tank and tackle and getting damage and other (armor tanked) races choosing between tank or damage and getting tackle but the simple fact is the ship bonuses help make that decision alot easier. When my Caldari ship bonuses are "built in webber or scrammer" then we can talk. Until then, it will NEVER be truly equal.

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