Originally by: xHalcyonx

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Caldari are gang ships for PvP, as are most shield tankers.
Get used to the idea.[/quote
TBH I'd say Gallente are better gang wise aswell, in some cases atleast, only advantage I see is that caldari gets more mid slots for Eward, I'd rather see a 950 dps Myrm in my gang rather than a 250 dps Drake. Or a 1.6k dps Hyperion rather than a 600 dps Raven.
______________________________________________
*some guy telling a noob that pirates doesnt check their age before attacking*
"ooh! an age quip! very clever,I'm probably older than you darling! xx

Originally by: LMAAAOOOO

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Originally by: xHalcyonx

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Caldari are gang ships for PvP, as are most shield tankers.
Get used to the idea.

---

TBH I'd say Gallente are better gang wise aswell, in some cases atleast, only advantage I see is that caldari gets more mid slots for Eward, I'd rather see a 950 dps Myrm in my gang rather than a 250 dps Drake. Or a 1.6k dps Hyperion rather than a 600 dps Raven.

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Originally by: wictro

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Edited by: wictro on 30/06/2007 16:39:57
ill check the minnies, thanks for the tip!

EDIT: I looked trough them, and they were all 1/2 missile 1/2 gunnery. So no dice there. with max 3-4 launchers theres no chance to use missiles only. The search continues ^_^


as training a second race to BC-skills is no problem, and i would do it sooner or later, but add drone and gunnery skills and im back to zero.

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Originally by: DrElJefeMD

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Google burn eden's killboard.

Been on that receiving end.

No - caldari ships are not worthless.

Regards

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Originally by: zayanka

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i dont agree with u.... try this ship :

cerberus

5 hams or heavys
1 large dg shield booster, 1 em, 1 med injector, 1 em, 1 dg warp disruptor
2 bcu, 1 rcu t2, 1 pdu t2 (or t2 rcu for hams)
2 em rigs

with this ship u can fly solo and get some kills, also nice for small gangs

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Originally by: Serric

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Being Caldari in a PvP situation is NOT the end of the world, as long as you are not flying solo. In a gang or fleet, caldari ships can serve very well in many different capacities. Dedicated EW boats, arguably the best interceptor available, nasty tanks (if done right, check the forums), and one of the best sniping battleships in the game.

If you want to be a solo PvP specialist then yes you need to fly Gal or Min.. but if you are part of a gang or fleet you will definitely contribute and carry your own weight if you understand your role and do it well.



Take a look around at some of the elite corporation's kill boards. You will see many pilots having a successful PvP career as missile spammers.

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Originally by: Wrayeth

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Let me repost each with the balance right next to them:

1) Range ---> Delayed DPS
2) Consistancy ---> No wrecking shots
3) Damage Switching ---> Low DPS

However, #3 fails on the ships with a bonus to kinetic missile damage.

Quote:

---

You dont get stuff for free. Want missiles to perform like drones? Well, only if you want CCP to nerf missiles.

---

I agree that you don't get stuff for free. At the same time, you don't get penalized in relation to other ships of the same class without gaining something to make up for it. This is why the kinetic bonus is an issue.

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Originally by: Wrayeth

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Let me repost each with the balance right next to them:

1) Range ---> Delayed DPS
2) Consistancy ---> No wrecking shots
3) Damage Switching ---> Low DPS

However, #3 fails on the ships with a bonus to kinetic missile damage.

Quote:

---

You dont get stuff for free. Want missiles to perform like drones? Well, only if you want CCP to nerf missiles.

---

I agree that you don't get stuff for free. At the same time, you don't get penalized in relation to other ships of the same class without gaining something to make up for it. This is why the kinetic bonus is an issue.

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Originally by: Incantare

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Sure it does, it increases effective DPS.

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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What you fail to understand is that Caldari missile boats already completely dominate the field in PVE. Do you want to see more Ravens running missions and ratting?

---

Quote:

---

The problem with missiles in PVP is not DPS... it's flight time at fleet engagement range. I suggest you read the thread that I linked in my first post to my thread in the 'Features and Ideas' forum.

Increasing raw DPS does nothing but make the problem worse.

---

Originally by: Incantare

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Originally by: Tovarishch

---

What you fail to understand is that Caldari missile boats already completely dominate the field in PVE. Do you want to see more Ravens running missions and ratting?

---

What you fail to understand is that changing the kinetic bonus does not affect Ravens because, you guessed it, they are already free to chose damage types. So who would it benefit? Lvl 3 mission runners, briefly, until they inevitably start running lvl 4s in a Raven, because it's more profitable.

I also believe that PvE and PvP should be balanced seperately and that efforts should be made to improve other race's mission running ability but gimping Caldari's ability to PvP does not look like balance to me.

Quote:

---

The problem with missiles in PVP is not DPS... it's flight time at fleet engagement range. I suggest you read the thread that I linked in my first post to my thread in the 'Features and Ideas' forum.

Increasing raw DPS does nothing but make the problem worse.

---

This seems like a case of trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Missiles are poor for fleet by design, even with greatly increased velocity they would still be inferior to gunboats at extreme ranges. Caldari have a gunboat line for fleet.

If missile ships have a place in PvP it isn't in fleet but in small to medium gang where flight time is much less of a disadvantage and where individual DPS does matter.

You say it ignores their weakness in PvP but low DPS is a huge weakness the flip side of which should be the abilitiy to chose damamge type resulting in good effective DPS, but that isn't the case on all ships. As is, even in gang there are few situations where a Drake / Caracal are not outperformed by ships from the other races.

I read your thread when you initially posted it, I did not reply because I disagree.

---

Originally by: Incantare

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Tovarishch, I'll take you up on that and post in your thread once I've run the numbers. I think the source of our disagreement is me being focused on short range combat where flight time is nearly irrelevant but missile damage is lacking whereas you are focusing on long range where missile damage would be fine - if it weren't for flight time. These are two different issues.

---

Originally by: AnKahn

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Edited by: AnKahn on 01/07/2007 04:13:17
The concept of abandoning missile training to focus on drones and/or gunnery is not new. I suspect part of what fuels the perception that Caldari suck at PvP is the fact that many players abandon missiles before they get good at them.

However, if the "anti missile"crowd is right then many of us are wasting our time and we need to settle this with some authority. After all even with low skill point pilots the rats arn't getting any smarter so i'm sure I could stop training missiles today and still rat effectivly.

Flying a Drake tho (and soon again the Raven) I find in a dueling situation not to be at any disadvantage except, of course, in a real fight my opponant would warp off if losing when I usually am scrammed and webbed.

The Raven uses range very effectively. In dueling situations people usually ask me to fly tward them so they can hit me. Of course "gate warfare" is the nature of most EvE combat so usually your Raven is nose to nose with someone using short range/ high DPS ammo therefore I guess being a sniper is situational PvP.The passive shield tank (and I think we will see more ways to take advantage of this form of tank as the devs don't really seem to want to nerf NOS) means the dual rep setup of ship runs out of cap boosters before the passive tank breaks unless he's using very short range ammo (and therefore you need a speed mod to counter, still an interesting fight). The four nos/drone boats just dont have the dps. (Better have some tackle in that situation).

So yea, 1v1 Caldari cannot fit a ship that can handle every possible opponant. But missiles are damage over time, passive shield tanks love you long time, and your enemy's cargo bay only can hold a finite number of cap charges.

SO, help us out guys. You almighty 30 mill SP vets do some dueling and give us some win and loss numbers. SETTLE THIS, please. I'll very happily quit training missiles now if I did not have the gnawing feeling that too many have abandoned missiles too soon.

Thanks forum warriors for all your advise.

Edited to make slightly more sense.

---

Originally by: Gabriel Karade

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Originally by: LMAAAOOOO

---

Originally by: xHalcyonx

---

Caldari are gang ships for PvP, as are most shield tankers.
Get used to the idea.

---

TBH I'd say Gallente are better gang wise aswell, in some cases atleast, only advantage I see is that caldari gets more mid slots for Eward, I'd rather see a 950 dps Myrm in my gang rather than a 250 dps Drake. Or a 1.6k dps Hyperion rather than a 600 dps Raven.

---

There exists no such thing...

...plus that Raven hits out to 80km for full damage, the Hyperion with Ion II's for example, has a 5.6km optimal.

---

Originally by: LMAAAOOOO

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With Neutron II's and 3 MFS II and two damage rigs, it goes to 1.6k dps with Null

---

Originally by: wictro

---

Edited by: wictro on 30/06/2007 14:25:15
Edited by: wictro on 30/06/2007 14:18:49
Okies,

I have trained my missile skills for 3.95MIL SP, and I'm slowly beginning to realize that it was a bad idea.

I hate all kind of PvE "action"(is there such), and im no fan of fleet/gang warfare.

I've trained BattleCruisers up to LVL 5, and i can't find a ship class to train anymore.

The raven adds little to nothing compared to drake.

The Cerberus adds little to nothing compared to drake.

Assault ships are even worse than Cerberus.

Ceptors and Dictors, well, no drones < Ceptors and Dictors with drones.

Command ships? What in earth would i use them for?

Recons? Same thing.

That leaves Carriers ( I have about 200.000SP in drones, woot :P), motherships, barges, industrial and some others, that ain't a viable option either.

I have had the BattleCruiser skill since i dont know when, after that i trained cov-ops, and now im in a dead end.

I feel like i have wasted 7 months to train completely useless skills, and now i would have to train about the same duration for Gunnery and drones.

Plus Gallente/Amarr ships.


Where to go from here?

We need more ship classes. Making all the Caldari ships PvE is a bore, and should be mentioned when creating characters/log on ;D

I guess i'll cross my fingers and wait for a new ship/class, even tough it propably will take a very long time.

Stupid, useless, shield tanking, no ganking caldari.

If your not a carebear, do not even look at caldari ships!

over and out,
-wictro

---

Originally by: Incantare

---

Originally by: DrElJefeMD

---

Google burn eden's killboard.

Been on that receiving end.

No - caldari ships are not worthless.

Regards

---

I don't think anyone is saying Caldari ships are worthless but rather that they fall short when you look at the competition.

BE's ability to make good use of the Raven in a particular situation isn't a good argument to the balance of the race as a whole. Look up multiple killboards and look at the number of kills by other races and then look at Caldari, that gives a better perspective.

---

Originally by: eXtas

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raven 4tw! no need to say more

---

Originally by: Kenneys

---

Yep caldari is a waste of time for most cases if you pvp.

The main problem is that shield tanking takes mid slots. Mid slots = all the nifty pvp modules.

---

Originally by: Joshua Lonestar

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At first I thought Gallente were overpowered, now I just think of them as the easy button.

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

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Missiles are useful in PVP, 99% just fail to see it. Try fitting any battleship besides the raven to do 500 DPS (cruises) / 650 DPS (torps) at 100km range plzkthx.

---

Originally by: Incantare

---

Edited by: Incantare on 02/07/2007 18:45:25

Originally by: Joshua Lonestar

---

At first I thought Gallente were overpowered, now I just think of them as the easy button.

---

I would rather that there be no easy mode and hard mode, but that each race be equally competitive.

---

Originally by: Incantare

---

In practice: the target is tackled, the raven fires its torpedoes from 100 km away.

The target goes to a pub, has a couple pints, then goes for a walk only to come back, kill the tackler and warp off leaving the torpedoes harmlessly gliding in space.

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

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Originally by: Incantare

---

In practice: the target is tackled, the raven fires its torpedoes from 100 km away.

The target goes to a pub, has a couple pints, then goes for a walk only to come back, kill the tackler and warp off leaving the torpedoes harmlessly gliding in space.

---

Missile Velocity Rigs.

Cruise missiles going 12km/s

Torpedoes going ~ 5km/s (not sure on this one)

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

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Missile Velocity Rigs.

Cruise missiles going 12km/s

Torpedoes going ~ 5km/s (not sure on this one)

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Originally by: LMAAAOOOO

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Join the club, I switched to Gallente, and never looked back.

---

Originally by: Rawne Karrde

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PVP in EvE is consentual, you agree to it when you login. If you don't like it you're in the wrong game.

---

Originally by: Dimmizer

---

If you can dude keep training your missiles skills and get them up they will keep doing damage.. use webbers and jams so they cant run and if u can use senor dampener drones as they work ALOT better then ECM drones and yeah they dont lock the target down but they reduce his maximum target range by alot so if hes 40km out and you don't want him attacking you use senor damps and trust me he will be ****ed casue then he has to come closer to you.

I use Drake's for PVP here is my setup depending upon what your fighting and yes i do this solo too.

~~Heavy~~
7x Heavy Launchers
1x Medium NOS or 1x Medium maby a large smartbomb
~~Medium~~
1x t2 shield recharger
3x t2 shield exstenders
1x t2 invulnerability field
~~Small~~
4x t2 shield power relays
1x t2 bcs (Ballistics Control System)
~~Drones~~
4x Medium Senor Dampener Drones (use t2 if you can)

or

~~Heavy~~
7x Heavy Launchers
1x Medium NOS or 1x Medium maby a Large smart bomb
~~Medium~~
3x t2 shield exstenders
1x Warp Disruptor (Jamming Range 20km)
1x Fleet Webber (90% decrease in maximum speed)
~~Small~~
5x t2 shield power relays
~~Drones~~
4x Medium Senor Dampener Drones (use t2 if you can)

These setup arnt the best and could use a bit more perfecting but I am still working with them. The setup mainly works well agisnt 1v1 battles with other battleships/cruisers but can also be used to fight multiple cruisers even maby 2 battle cruisers if done correctly.

---

Originally by: Incantare

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Originally by: Sokratesz

---

Missile Velocity Rigs.

Cruise missiles going 12km/s

Torpedoes going ~ 5km/s (not sure on this one)

---

The CPU penalty doesn't mix too well with siege launchers, especially t2. Cruise though, yeah it can work.

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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Originally by: Incantare

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

---

Missile Velocity Rigs.

Cruise missiles going 12km/s

Torpedoes going ~ 5km/s (not sure on this one)

---

The CPU penalty doesn't mix too well with siege launchers, especially t2. Cruise though, yeah it can work.

---

Not sure what you're on about, but i've got plenty CPU even without a co-proc

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Originally by: d026

---

If you want to be able to fit a full rack of TII Sieges + a aceptable TII tank you need at least 2 x Co-Processor II (or probably a faction). This is with WU V. If you want to fit something useful in your 2 remaining higslots you even need a ancy router on top of this (AWU V).

---

Originally by: Incantare

---

Three rigs costs the 6 Seige II raven 60 CPU in increased fitting reqs.

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Edited by: Tovarishch on 01/07/2007 00:06:28

Originally by: Incantare

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

What you fail to understand is that Caldari missile boats already completely dominate the field in PVE. Do you want to see more Ravens running missions and ratting?

---

What you fail to understand is that changing the kinetic bonus does not affect Ravens because, you guessed it, they are already free to chose damage types. So who would it benefit? Lvl 3 mission runners, briefly, until they inevitably start running lvl 4s in a Raven, because it's more profitable.

I also believe that PvE and PvP should be balanced seperately and that efforts should be made to improve other race's mission running ability but gimping Caldari's ability to PvP does not look like balance to me.

Quote:

---

The problem with missiles in PVP is not DPS... it's flight time at fleet engagement range. I suggest you read the thread that I linked in my first post to my thread in the 'Features and Ideas' forum.

Increasing raw DPS does nothing but make the problem worse.

---

This seems like a case of trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Missiles are poor for fleet by design, even with greatly increased velocity they would still be inferior to gunboats at extreme ranges. Caldari have a gunboat line for fleet.

If missile ships have a place in PvP it isn't in fleet but in small to medium gang where flight time is much less of a disadvantage and where individual DPS does matter.

You say it ignores their weakness in PvP but low DPS is a huge weakness the flip side of which should be the abilitiy to chose damamge type resulting in good effective DPS, but that isn't the case on all ships. As is, even in gang there are few situations where a Drake / Caracal are not outperformed by ships from the other races.

I read your thread when you initially posted it, I did not reply because I disagree.

---

Missiles do not suffer from low DPS. Where in the world you get that idea I have no clue. Run the numbers on any missile boat... and you'll find that they are very much in line with turret ships. So, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. It's obvious to me that you are starting from a flawed premise... and solving a problem that does not exist.

Regardless, while missile ships are indeed on par with turrets for DPS... missiles suffer from delayed damage due to flight time. The only advantage to compensate for this is the selection from all four damage types. This advantage does nothing in PVP. Missiles are the only single, primary weapon system that suffer from such a major disadvantage... with a PVE-only advantage to cover for it.

I'd say more... but my thread in the 'Features and Ideas' forum sums my thoughts up. There's no point in repeating it further here. If you disagree with it then speak up in that thread and give me an explanation or some numbers as to why.

---

Originally by: Luna Nilaya

---

Rook and Falcon FTW.

---

Originally by: AnKahn

---

Edited by: AnKahn on 01/07/2007 04:13:17
The concept of abandoning missile training to focus on drones and/or gunnery is not new. I suspect part of what fuels the perception that Caldari suck at PvP is the fact that many players abandon missiles before they get good at them.

However, if the "anti missile"crowd is right then many of us are wasting our time and we need to settle this with some authority. After all even with low skill point pilots the rats arn't getting any smarter so i'm sure I could stop training missiles today and still rat effectivly.

Flying a Drake tho (and soon again the Raven) I find in a dueling situation not to be at any disadvantage except, of course, in a real fight my opponant would warp off if losing when I usually am scrammed and webbed.

The Raven uses range very effectively. In dueling situations people usually ask me to fly tward them so they can hit me. Of course "gate warfare" is the nature of most EvE combat so usually your Raven is nose to nose with someone using short range/ high DPS ammo therefore I guess being a sniper is situational PvP.The passive shield tank (and I think we will see more ways to take advantage of this form of tank as the devs don't really seem to want to nerf NOS) means the dual rep setup of ship runs out of cap boosters before the passive tank breaks unless he's using very short range ammo (and therefore you need a speed mod to counter, still an interesting fight). The four nos/drone boats just dont have the dps. (Better have some tackle in that situation).

So yea, 1v1 Caldari cannot fit a ship that can handle every possible opponant. But missiles are damage over time, passive shield tanks love you long time, and your enemy's cargo bay only can hold a finite number of cap charges.

SO, help us out guys. You almighty 30 mill SP vets do some dueling and give us some win and loss numbers. SETTLE THIS, please. I'll very happily quit training missiles now if I did not have the gnawing feeling that too many have abandoned missiles too soon.

Thanks forum warriors for all your advise.

Edited to make slightly more sense.

---

Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos

---

You've trained up battlecruisers 5, so your only real choice is to either a) move toward command ships or b) train other races.

Given that you're so heavily focuesed (skill-wise) on missiles, I'd say move toward command ships. However your post intimates you're looking for something new and refreshing, in which case I'd recommend training Minmatar - unlike Gallente and Amarr, your missile skills are still useful for many of their ships.

---

Originally by: Santa Anna

---

It's not that one system is better or worse -- they're different.

At close range, blasters are better than missiles. At long range, missile damage is delayed so that you start doing damage a couple volleys after a long range gunner starts hitting you. Normally, though, you do more damage at range, but because it's delayed the DPS measured from the start of the engagement will take a while to increase. (That, and if you or your target warps off or is destroyed while a missile is in flight, the damage never actually happens).

If you use missiles at medium range they're very good. Unlike close-range gunnery, though, this takes teamwork, which is why people don't like it.

It's really funny to be in a channel full of carebearish folks trying to organize a pvp gang. You get 40 drakes/ravens and 0 tacklers.

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

---

Originally by: eXtas

---

raven 4tw! no need to say more

---

Yeah i was about to say, time for a BE response.

Missiles are useful in PVP, 99% just fail to see it. Try fitting any battleship besides the raven to do 500 DPS (cruises) / 650 DPS (torps) at 100km range plzkthx.

---

Originally by: SFShootme

---

They seem to work out for me, just hang in there... Lol.

-

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

---

Originally by: Kenneys

---

Yep caldari is a waste of time for most cases if you pvp.

The main problem is that shield tanking takes mid slots. Mid slots = all the nifty pvp modules.

---

Then dont shieldtank. Is that so hard lol?

---

Originally by: Danlex

---

Edited by: Danlex on 03/07/2007 07:00:37
To the OP I'm minmatar. I have to invest millions of sp into gunnery, missiles, drones, shield tanking and armour tanking. Most of our ships have split weapon systems (or split bonus, although there are some very good solo gunnery boats).

I've been playing this game for a while now and I just realised I have a whopping 800k in missiles. So now I'm working on that.

The caldari have PvE on easy mode, are good gang ships and half decent ewar (minmatar have webbing and target painting, wooo). So stop whining.

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

---

Originally by: Incantare

---

In practice: the target is tackled, the raven fires its torpedoes from 100 km away.

The target goes to a pub, has a couple pints, then goes for a walk only to come back, kill the tackler and warp off leaving the torpedoes harmlessly gliding in space.

---

Missile Velocity Rigs.

Cruise missiles going 12km/s

I am glad you enjoy sitting at 100km's all the time and firing at targets you cannot see, while surrounded by 50 of your gangmates, when your DPS is really not relevant.

What is your point?

Torpedoes going ~ 5km/s (not sure on this one)

---

Originally by: wictro

---

Edited by: wictro on 30/06/2007 14:25:15
Edited by: wictro on 30/06/2007 14:18:49
Okies,

I have trained my missile skills for 3.95MIL SP, and I'm slowly beginning to realize that it was a bad idea.

I hate all kind of PvE "action"(is there such), and im no fan of fleet/gang warfare.

I've trained BattleCruisers up to LVL 5, and i can't find a ship class to train anymore.

The raven adds little to nothing compared to drake.

The Cerberus adds little to nothing compared to drake.

Assault ships are even worse than Cerberus.

Ceptors and Dictors, well, no drones < Ceptors and Dictors with drones.

Command ships? What in earth would i use them for?

Recons? Same thing.

That leaves Carriers ( I have about 200.000SP in drones, woot :P), motherships, barges, industrial and some others, that ain't a viable option either.

I have had the BattleCruiser skill since i dont know when, after that i trained cov-ops, and now im in a dead end.

I feel like i have wasted 7 months to train completely useless skills, and now i would have to train about the same duration for Gunnery and drones.

Plus Gallente/Amarr ships.


Where to go from here?

We need more ship classes. Making all the Caldari ships PvE is a bore, and should be mentioned when creating characters/log on ;D

I guess i'll cross my fingers and wait for a new ship/class, even tough it propably will take a very long time.

Stupid, useless, shield tanking, no ganking caldari.

If your not a carebear, do not even look at caldari ships!

over and out,
-wictro

---

Originally by: J Valkor

---

Missile skills have several awesome things about them that only really become obvious once you start regularly pvping with them and those quirks start to get you free kills.

I wuv my Nighthawk too much to train anything else. Even though I'm painfully close to being an awesome leader with my Vulture.

---

Originally by: Dimmizer

---

If you can dude keep training your missiles skills and get them up they will keep doing damage.. use webbers and jams so they cant run and if u can use senor dampener drones as they work ALOT better then ECM drones and yeah they dont lock the target down but they reduce his maximum target range by alot so if hes 40km out and you don't want him attacking you use senor damps and trust me he will be ****ed casue then he has to come closer to you.

I use Drake's for PVP here is my setup depending upon what your fighting and yes i do this solo too.

~~Heavy~~
7x Heavy Launchers
1x Medium NOS or 1x Medium maby a large smartbomb
~~Medium~~
1x t2 shield recharger
3x t2 shield exstenders
1x t2 invulnerability field
~~Small~~
4x t2 shield power relays
1x t2 bcs (Ballistics Control System)
~~Drones~~
4x Medium Senor Dampener Drones (use t2 if you can)

or

~~Heavy~~
7x Heavy Launchers
1x Medium NOS or 1x Medium maby a Large smart bomb
~~Medium~~
3x t2 shield exstenders
1x Warp Disruptor (Jamming Range 20km)
1x Fleet Webber (90% decrease in maximum speed)
~~Small~~
5x t2 shield power relays
~~Drones~~
4x Medium Senor Dampener Drones (use t2 if you can)

These setup arnt the best and could use a bit more perfecting but I am still working with them. The setup mainly works well agisnt 1v1 battles with other battleships/cruisers but can also be used to fight multiple cruisers even maby 2 battle cruisers if done correctly.

---

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

---

Complain too much.


Caldari have great recons, that can disable most enemies as easily as an arazu can.


Caldari have a good sniper, and a great EWAR battleship. in amy group of more than 2 players there is no better BS to be there.


Crow... nothing else to speak about it.


Caracal and relatives. Put assault Missile alunchers and you have an incredble frig powning ship. Ceptors without snakes cry when they find one of those.

Ravens.. ask Burn eden... if you are too stcuk inside teh box to think how to use this wonderfull ship.... You can start by 2 Sensor boosters and 3 dampeners... teh rest you realize yourself.

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

---

Originally by: d026

---

If you want to be able to fit a full rack of TII Sieges + a aceptable TII tank you need at least 2 x Co-Processor II (or probably a faction). This is with WU V. If you want to fit something useful in your 2 remaining higslots you even need a ancy router on top of this (AWU V).

---

Originally by: Incantare

---

Three rigs costs the 6 Seige II raven 60 CPU in increased fitting reqs.

---

I can't tell you my setup unfortunatly but i can assure you it isn't really standard, and that it has plenty CPU without fitting mods.

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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Originally by: d026

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If you want to be able to fit a full rack of TII Sieges + a aceptable TII tank you need at least 2 x Co-Processor II (or probably a faction). This is with WU V. If you want to fit something useful in your 2 remaining higslots you even need a ancy router on top of this (AWU V).

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Originally by: Incantare

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Three rigs costs the 6 Seige II raven 60 CPU in increased fitting reqs.

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I can't tell you my setup unfortunatly but i can assure you it isn't really standard, and that it has plenty CPU without fitting mods.

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I bet it is NOT standard, I also bet you rely HEAVILY on a sizeable gang to stay alive.. thank you for your advice.

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Originally by: Incantare

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Black Scorpio: take a deep breath, relax and ... train Gallente.

Because to quote Welsh Wizard, acceptance is easier than argument, and you will always run into people claiming that Caldari are perfectly fine.

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Originally by: Incantare

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Edited by: Incantare on 03/07/2007 13:43:37

Read the top line, ships flown. That's in PvP, stats from a killboard.

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Originally by: Incantare

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Edited by: Incantare on 03/07/2007 13:43:37

Read the top line, ships flown. That's in PvP, stats from a killboard.

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Originally by: Mardenkainen

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Originally by: wictro

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Edited by: wictro on 30/06/2007 14:25:15
Edited by: wictro on 30/06/2007 14:18:49
Okies,

I have trained my missile skills for 3.95MIL SP, and I'm slowly beginning to realize that it was a bad idea.

I hate all kind of PvE "action"(is there such), and im no fan of fleet/gang warfare.

I've trained BattleCruisers up to LVL 5, and i can't find a ship class to train anymore.

The raven adds little to nothing compared to drake.

The Cerberus adds little to nothing compared to drake.

Assault ships are even worse than Cerberus.

Ceptors and Dictors, well, no drones < Ceptors and Dictors with drones.

Command ships? What in earth would i use them for?

Recons? Same thing.

That leaves Carriers ( I have about 200.000SP in drones, woot :P), motherships, barges, industrial and some others, that ain't a viable option either.

I have had the BattleCruiser skill since i dont know when, after that i trained cov-ops, and now im in a dead end.

I feel like i have wasted 7 months to train completely useless skills, and now i would have to train about the same duration for Gunnery and drones.

Plus Gallente/Amarr ships.


Where to go from here?

We need more ship classes. Making all the Caldari ships PvE is a bore, and should be mentioned when creating characters/log on ;D

I guess i'll cross my fingers and wait for a new ship/class, even tough it propably will take a very long time.

Stupid, useless, shield tanking, no ganking caldari.

If your not a carebear, do not even look at caldari ships!

over and out,
-wictro

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only u choose what u do pve or pvp:) i saw drake with mwd+2xweb+scrambelr...who killed vagabond 1x1

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Originally by: SFShootme

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Edited by: SFShootme on 03/07/2007 14:03:08

Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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Originally by: d026

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If you want to be able to fit a full rack of TII Sieges + a aceptable TII tank you need at least 2 x Co-Processor II (or probably a faction). This is with WU V. If you want to fit something useful in your 2 remaining higslots you even need a ancy router on top of this (AWU V).

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Originally by: Incantare

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Three rigs costs the 6 Seige II raven 60 CPU in increased fitting reqs.

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I can't tell you my setup unfortunatly but i can assure you it isn't really standard, and that it has plenty CPU without fitting mods.

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I bet it is NOT standard, I also bet you rely HEAVILY on a sizeable gang to stay alive.. thank you for your advice.

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do you realize that u just posted 4 times without anybody saying a word? I think there is a edit button for a reason.

-

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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ahahah, PVP yeah? lol, ok maaann, get your Uber Ferox (listed second) I'll just get an average Myrmidon or minnie BC and make fun of you while you're on structure and I'm still at 80% Armor..

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Incantare

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Edited by: Incantare on 03/07/2007 13:43:37

Read the top line, ships flown. That's in PvP, stats from a killboard.

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ahahah, PVP yeah? lol, ok maaann, get your Uber Ferox (listed second) I'll just get an average Myrmidon or minnie BC and make fun of you while you're on structure and I'm still at 80% Armor..

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Originally by: Incantare

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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ahahah, PVP yeah? lol, ok maaann, get your Uber Ferox (listed second) I'll just get an average Myrmidon or minnie BC and make fun of you while you're on structure and I'm still at 80% Armor..

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Nah you misunderstood, that was SFShootme's stats, the ships he flies. Nothing to do with me or the general eve population.

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Originally by: SFShootme

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Edited by: SFShootme on 03/07/2007 14:17:19

Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Incantare

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Edited by: Incantare on 03/07/2007 13:43:37

Read the top line, ships flown. That's in PvP, stats from a killboard.

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ahahah, PVP yeah? lol, ok maaann, get your Uber Ferox (listed second) I'll just get an average Myrmidon or minnie BC and make fun of you while you're on structure and I'm still at 80% Armor..

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convo me ingame please. Oh wait... ur an alt

-

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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I bet it is NOT standard, I also bet you rely HEAVILY on a sizeable gang to stay alive.. thank you for your advice.

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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I bet it is NOT standard, I also bet you rely HEAVILY on a sizeable gang to stay alive.. thank you for your advice.

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Whats your definition of 'sizable' ?

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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I bet it is NOT standard, I also bet you rely HEAVILY on a sizeable gang to stay alive.. thank you for your advice.

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Whats your definition of 'sizable' ?

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enough to keep you alive while you experiment with non-standard fittings..

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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Edited by: Sokratesz on 03/07/2007 14:25:43

Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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I bet it is NOT standard, I also bet you rely HEAVILY on a sizeable gang to stay alive.. thank you for your advice.

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Whats your definition of 'sizable' ?

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enough to keep you alive while you experiment with non-standard fittings..

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Start making sense or stfu, please. This whole 'ill try to look smart by not defining any numbers that can be used against me' is silly.

How about a 7 man gang? That 'sizable' when it takes on a force of 10 and kills them? It's not really 'experimenting' either, i know many a player who can tell you how and why its good.

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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I never claimed it was a solo ship.

It's also an MMORPG. Look up what the second 'M' stands for.

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Originally by: PWNERIZE

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There is nothing wrong with Caldari. Learn to play noobs.

You have the second best e-war in the game, and the only e-war battleship.

You think Caldari is at a disadvantage but look at Amarr and STFU.

Sure you can't solo but put Caldari ships in a gang and they are some of the best ships out there.



*PUKES*

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Originally by: PWNERIZE

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Yeah, sure... And I even edited my post before you posted. Read again.

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Complain too much.


Caldari have great recons, that can disable most enemies as easily as an arazu can.


Caldari have a good sniper, and a great EWAR battleship. in amy group of more than 2 players there is no better BS to be there.


Crow... nothing else to speak about it.


Caracal and relatives. Put assault Missile alunchers and you have an incredble frig powning ship. Ceptors without snakes cry when they find one of those.

Ravens.. ask Burn eden... if you are too stcuk inside teh box to think how to use this wonderfull ship.... You can start by 2 Sensor boosters and 3 dampeners... teh rest you realize yourself.

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get a clue.

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Originally by: PWNERIZE

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I do fly Caldari ships and you didn't understand a thing.

I took classical arguments presented on this forum by people who fly other races and don't have a clue about the problems Caldari has.

Are you slow ?

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Complain too much.


Caldari have great recons, that can disable most enemies as easily as an arazu can.


Caldari have a good sniper, and a great EWAR battleship. in amy group of more than 2 players there is no better BS to be there.


Crow... nothing else to speak about it.


Caracal and relatives. Put assault Missile alunchers and you have an incredble frig powning ship. Ceptors without snakes cry when they find one of those.

Ravens.. ask Burn eden... if you are too stcuk inside teh box to think how to use this wonderfull ship.... You can start by 2 Sensor boosters and 3 dampeners... teh rest you realize yourself.

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get a clue.

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I say get a clue yourself. These are all real setups and concepts used with greta success all around.

Again, ask Burn eden if the Raven sucks for PVP.

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Originally by: PWNERIZE

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I don't "talk like a kid", my post's intention was to show how ridiculous those arguments are, if you browse other threads on this topic you will see those exact same arguments presented in the same fashion.

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Originally by: PWNERIZE

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I do fly Caldari ships and you didn't understand a thing.

I took classical arguments presented on this forum by people who fly other races and don't have a clue about the problems Caldari has.

Are you slow ?

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Originally by: Pelagiad

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Originally by: PWNERIZE

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I do fly Caldari ships and you didn't understand a thing.

I took classical arguments presented on this forum by people who fly other races and don't have a clue about the problems Caldari has.

Are you slow ?

---

Actually maybe this is just a case of the grass is greener for some other race.

Point is maybe you don't understand the problems other races have that they have overcome....think creatively FTW. that is the point of the BE argument.

Pel.

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Originally by: Pelagiad

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Actually maybe this is just a case of the grass is greener for some other race.

Point is maybe you don't understand the problems other races have that they have overcome....think creatively FTW. that is the point of the BE argument.

Pel.

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Originally by: PWNERIZE

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Edited by: PWNERIZE on 03/07/2007 16:48:20


What kind of argument is that? It's OK the races aren't balanced because I can simply train another race. Lol?

By your logic we should all play the FOTM.

Do not forget that Eve is all about specialisation, training one race's skills to an advanced level takes time, time which cannot be redistributed into another race. Of course there is some overlap between the races but that isn't the point.


Here's an analogy, the Starcraft balance team:

Tester 1: Umm the Terran are badly underpowered in this next patch, shouldn't we fix them?

Tester 2: Nah don't worry, players are free to pick Protoss or Zerg.

Except in eve it's worse because there is time invested.

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Good job m8 :) now i really like you !!! :)

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Originally by: Atius Tirawa

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- or - train Minmatar like a lot of FOTM people

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Originally by: Atius Tirawa

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Finally, 3.5 mil in missles is not that much. . .

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Originally by: Sharupak

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I see both sides I think which makes me ask the question...How do you fix it without unbalancing something else?

I mean if you increase missle damage to compensate, then other races ships get delegated for support roles in fleet battles because fleet commanders are just going to want insane caldari damage.

Increasing missle speed isnt gonna solve it, unless its damn close to insta damage but then that would give them extreme power as their damage is guaranteed no matter what range.

If you make caldari ships faster, that pretty much negates minmatars

Do you make them highly resistant to web/nos? All kinds of problems there.

So I think both sides are right. Yes Caldari and solo PVP = underpowered. However boosting them seriously ****s with the balance of the game right? Or is there some other way?

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Originally by: PWNERIZE

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Woah, easy there. I think I can safely say that Caldari players would be happy with a buff to their PvP ability, any buff however small.

I do not want to see Caldari as fast as Minmatar, that would be unbalanced not to mention it wouldn't make sense. I do not want to see Caldari have Gallente's in your face damage at range, that would be unbalanced as well.

But I believe small incremental changes can be made to put Caldari on par with the other races not necessarily in solo as that would be hard to do (thank you CCP for poorly designing the race from the start) but in general.

I think a good start would be to lower Caldari mass, from what I understand Caldari's ridiculously high mass and low speed are the result of an old nerf from when missiles dealt huge damage to targets of any size. Since then missiles were nerfed to take into account velocity / signature radius and are no longer uber, but the mass nerf has remained.

Correct me if I'm wrong on that as it was before I joined Eve.

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Originally by: PWNERIZE

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Originally by: Sharupak

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I see both sides I think which makes me ask the question...How do you fix it without unbalancing something else?

I mean if you increase missle damage to compensate, then other races ships get delegated for support roles in fleet battles because fleet commanders are just going to want insane caldari damage.

Increasing missle speed isnt gonna solve it, unless its damn close to insta damage but then that would give them extreme power as their damage is guaranteed no matter what range.

If you make caldari ships faster, that pretty much negates minmatars

Do you make them highly resistant to web/nos? All kinds of problems there.

So I think both sides are right. Yes Caldari and solo PVP = underpowered. However boosting them seriously ****s with the balance of the game right? Or is there some other way?

---

Woah, easy there. I think I can safely say that Caldari players would be happy with a buff to their PvP ability, any buff however small.

I do not want to see Caldari as fast as Minmatar, that would be unbalanced not to mention it wouldn't make sense. I do not want to see Caldari have Gallente's in your face damage at range, that would be unbalanced as well.

But I believe small incremental changes can be made to put Caldari on par with the other races not necessarily in solo as that would be hard to do (thank you CCP for poorly designing the race from the start) but in general.

I think a good start would be to lower Caldari mass, from what I understand Caldari's ridiculously high mass and low speed are the result of an old nerf from when missiles dealt huge damage to targets of any size. Since then missiles were nerfed to take into account velocity / signature radius and are no longer uber, but the mass nerf has remained.

Correct me if I'm wrong on that as it was before I joined Eve.

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Originally by: Sharupak

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Caldari would probably have to be the all around race faster than the others except minmatars, better drones than all but gallente, better ew than all but amarr. Maybe small boost in all areas but not too much.

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Originally by: Neuromandis

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Originally by: Sharupak

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Caldari would probably have to be the all around race faster than the others except minmatars, better drones than all but gallente, better ew than all but amarr. Maybe small boost in all areas but not too much.

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Well, I think you're asking for a bit too much.

IMO, things should be like:
1) Shield: Caldari>minmatar>gallente>amarr CHECK
2) Armor: Amarr>Gallente>Minmatar>Caldari CHECK
3) Speed: Minmatar>Caldari/Gallente>Amarr NOT check (Caldari a lot worse than gallente)
4) Guns: Amarr>Caldari/Gallente (different philosophy)>Minmatar NOT check (Amarr fraked by cap problems, Caldari a bit worse than minmatar due to lack of hardpoints)
5) Missiles: Caldari>Minmatar>Amarr>Gallente CHECK
6) Drones: Gallente>Amarr>Minmatar>Caldari Almost check (Caldari having ships with too few drones)
7) EW: Caldari>Gallente>Minmatar/amarr Not check (lots of reasons. Minmatar royally screwed)

But, since this is a Caldari thread, check 3 and 4: As written before, and basically this being half the point of the OP (it may be about missiles specifically, but between the lines you can read "Caldari don't pvp very well, why?"). Fix: Caldari seem to need one more turret on their gunships and a little more speed to be about the same as Gallente. Flame away.

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Originally by: Sharupak

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I could see that, maybe not another turret, but more turret hardpoints to give them the option of pvp setup or a pve missle boat.

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Originally by: Dimmizer

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If you can dude keep training your missiles skills and get them up they will keep doing damage.. use webbers and jams so they cant run and if u can use senor dampener drones as they work ALOT better then ECM drones and yeah they dont lock the target down but they reduce his maximum target range by alot so if hes 40km out and you don't want him attacking you use senor damps and trust me he will be ****ed casue then he has to come closer to you.

I use Drake's for PVP here is my setup depending upon what your fighting and yes i do this solo too.

~~Heavy~~
7x Heavy Launchers
1x Medium NOS or 1x Medium maby a large smartbomb
~~Medium~~
1x t2 shield recharger
3x t2 shield exstenders
1x t2 invulnerability field
~~Small~~
4x t2 shield power relays
1x t2 bcs (Ballistics Control System)
~~Drones~~
4x Medium Senor Dampener Drones (use t2 if you can)

or

~~Heavy~~
7x Heavy Launchers
1x Medium NOS or 1x Medium maby a Large smart bomb
~~Medium~~
3x t2 shield exstenders
1x Warp Disruptor (Jamming Range 20km)
1x Fleet Webber (90% decrease in maximum speed)
~~Small~~
5x t2 shield power relays
~~Drones~~
4x Medium Senor Dampener Drones (use t2 if you can)

These setup arnt the best and could use a bit more perfecting but I am still working with them. The setup mainly works well agisnt 1v1 battles with other battleships/cruisers but can also be used to fight multiple cruisers even maby 2 battle cruisers if done correctly.

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T2 damper drones? 5 lowslot Drake?
WTF?

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Originally by: Neuromandis

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3) Speed: Minmatar>Caldari/Gallente>Amarr
4) Guns: Amarr>Caldari/Gallente (different philosophy)>Minmatar

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: Neuromandis

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3) Speed: Minmatar>Caldari/Gallente>Amarr
4) Guns: Amarr>Caldari/Gallente (different philosophy)>Minmatar

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Uhh.. I would rather disagree there. In general a races speed is dependant on their range philosophy. Shortrange ships have higher speed, longrange ships lower. There are no indicators at all which paint amarr as "slow" race. "Armortanking" does not equal slow. In fact in the present days high energy eletronic equipment (shields) is usually far heavier than advanced armor material.

Minmatar>Gallente>Amarr>Caldari

And for guns - minmatar LAST?? They are at least as much gun focussed as gallente. Hell, it's even in many ship descriptions "... is favouring the "lots of guns" approach". Of al lraces caldari have the least amount of gunships. I do not realyl see how you could argue for caldari there.

Amarr>Minmatar/Gallente>Caldari

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Originally by: Neuromandis

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2 reasons for that. First, Minmatar usually favor a "lots of weapons" approach as far as I can see, not "lots of guns" specifically. That means a big total of guns, drones and missiles. Ships like the Tempest do not rely on "lots of guns" but rather "lots of bonuses".

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Quote:

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That's the reason I have made "speed" directly inverse to the "guns" part, simply. Because I feel it is the only reasonable way to balance it. In the example above, the Moa has less damage output but better range than the Thorax via its ship bonus. It is balanced by itself, because "good range" ships give up their damage to reach good range. This does not make them more or less powerful (that's why I have put Caldari and Gallente together on the equation even though gallente will clearly do more raw damage - they will do so in short range while in long range Caldaris will have the edge).
If Caldaris also give up their speed, they are starting to get badly nerfed. Which is the present day situation: it leaves them at a rather distinct disadvantage.

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Quote:

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Also, for the record, in EVE Armor makes ships heavier (adds mass)and Shield makes ships larger (adds Sig radius).

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Complain too much.


Caldari have great recons, that can disable most enemies as easily as an arazu can.


Caldari have a good sniper, and a great EWAR battleship. in amy group of more than 2 players there is no better BS to be there.


Crow... nothing else to speak about it.


Caracal and relatives. Put assault Missile alunchers and you have an incredble frig powning ship. Ceptors without snakes cry when they find one of those.

Ravens.. ask Burn eden... if you are too stcuk inside teh box to think how to use this wonderfull ship.... You can start by 2 Sensor boosters and 3 dampeners... teh rest you realize yourself.

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get a clue.

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I say get a clue yourself. These are all real setups and concepts used with greta success all around.

Again, ask Burn eden if the Raven sucks for PVP.

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Kagura, just because you "heard" that see Burn Eden use Armor tanked Ravens in numbers and are effective doesn' mean Caldari ships in general are in PvP.

Thank you for another cliche.

Black

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Quote:

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Ever foguth a gang of Ravens with 2 plates + 2 EANm + DC and 2 remote repairers with 6 Ewar slots? Try fight a gang of those with a shield tank ravens gang.. Try fighting thatwith any type of BS and tell me they are easy targets.

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Quote:

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Ever foguth a gang of Ravens with 2 plates + 2 EANm + DC and 2 remote repairers with 6 Ewar slots? Try fight a gang of those with a shield tank ravens gang.. Try fighting thatwith any type of BS and tell me they are easy targets.

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Fortunately, no-one will pay any attention to this. They will keep wasting those midslots on a shield tank and bleating about "Caldari are teh suxzors!1", never once breaking out of the cookie-cutter mentality into the realms of independent thought and innovation.

Midslots = win. Sort of.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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**snip 1st part getting long**

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Originally by: Aramendel

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**snip, part 2, space problems**

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Originally by: Neuromandis

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Ok to the first part, it's semantics.

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Quote:

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The real question, the point on which an argument could stand is, Shouldn't Caldari ships have 1 more turret point? I say yes, eagle ferox moa vulture should have another gun. Do you believe they shouldn't? If not, why not? What is the Moa's benefit that sais the moa should only have 4 guns to keep it balanced?

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Quote:

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No. First, there is no "ad-infinitum" here. For example, the thorax has a pretty beefy MWD bonus that could make the moa cap out before the thorax. Thorax either closes in and kills moa, or warps away, as needed.

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Quote:

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That's a window with a width of 8(20km scrambler-12km webber) to 14km (24km scrambler-10km webber). With best equipment in both sides, it's 12 km window. Usually it's 8km.

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Quote:

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Last, Caldari and Gallente don't need to have identical stats. Caldari could have more base speed and more mass, Gallente less base speed and less mass, so as to be faster than Caldari with a MWD. Problem solved.

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Originally by: DHB WildCat

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Edited by: DHB WildCat on 04/07/2007 15:59:33
Its idiots like you that always told me Ravens sucked, and then I joined Burn Eden. Ravens are THE absolute best pvp ship in the game. End of story. If you cant figure out how to use them then too bad, but never think Ravens only equal PVE.

Empire noobs

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Originally by: Aramendel

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The only thing which matters is what you get after everything, number of turrets and ship boni has been combined.

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Quote:

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That isn't the issue, you are trying to derail.

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Quote:

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The point here is that your classification of minnies as last "gun" race is a pure construct.

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Quote:

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Amarr are not the supposed "kings of gunnery" because their number of turrets or even their ship boni. That would be a such simplistic approach that it borders to stupidity. They are the "top" gun race because their are the most DEPENDANT on guns of all races.

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Quote:

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Minnie ships do not have the same dependance, but it is close. Out of ALL minnie combat ships there are two which do not rely to an huge amount on their guns. Two. The hound and a nos fitted nanophoon (and that is only with that particular fit).

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Quote:

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The huginn and a none-nos phoon comes relatively close to being a "true" gun-drone-missile hybrid, *everything* left is nearly to the same extend reliant to it's guns than amarr.

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Quote:

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*Gallente* have less gun dependant ships than minmatar...

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Quote:

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But, anyway, for your question: Moa - IMO no. Mainly because I have it seen used *very* efficiently by some previous alliancemates. Ferox - yes, if it looses 2 missileslots. Eagle - maybe. It's a rather common anti-support craft in fleets, so it has a role where it is good in, but it could maybe need a boost. But only if it does not give it a bigger (or equal) dps than the muninn or the zealot, both which have a far lower range. Vulture - very strong yes. IF the other field comamnds bar the eos get boosted too. Compared vs the damnation or the claymore the vulture is not really underpowered.

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Quote:

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No. First, there is no "ad-infinitum" here. For example, the thorax has a pretty beefy MWD bonus that could make the moa cap out before the thorax. Thorax either closes in and kills moa, or warps away, as needed.

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Quote:

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24k scrams are far far...far far more common than heat. Also, webber range means nothing. Both targets web each other and...will still be at the same speed.

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Quote:

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Exept you are still completely ignoring the amarr issue I mentioned. The basic point is - the longer a range a race has the slower it has to be. Otherwise it will kite-kill all other races. That should be rather obvious. To use your words - "So you agree with me whether you like it or not". The moa has to be slower than the throax due to that.

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Quote:

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Now, amarr range is *below* that of caldari range. Which means that they have to be faster than caldari. Which means caldari have to be the slowest of all races, as it is now.

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Originally by: Neuromandis

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We are talking gunships here, remember? No dominix, no myrmidon, no ishkur. We are talking Megathron, Brutix, that line of ships. Which ARE gun dependant, of course. All gunships are. GUN-ships.

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Quote:

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Lastly, it does not matter. Gun dependant, gun irrelevant - it is just a classification. The point is neither how you choose to categorise them and nor criticism of how I choose to categorise. Categorise them as you want.
You want to call the Minnies Gunlords? Fine. Wanna call them Gunless? Fine again. I won't argue semantics, even if you say they are not and you insist they are the important.

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Better skills, flying skills and piloting tricks may make it win, but at the end of the day, you start at a disadvantage. That your alliance mates use them effectively means nothing. They still need another gun - because they have nothing to "compensate" for its loss. They pay for their range with damage.

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As I said before, it is a matter of fitting, not ship basics. The question is, can a railmoa play with its speed? Can it actually fit to be faster than a blasterax? Will the actual fitting be faster? Will both be injected? Will the thorax wear speed mods?
Also, most combat gets fought around gates, in which case the shortranger always has the advantage - he can web. If you must kite, you cannot hold your target.
Both have webs you say? Do YOU use webs in kiting setups???..

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If things are as you say, then the vagabond surely needs a really heavy handed nerf? Because even with 80-90% its current speed it would be faster than any other hac hence a lot overpowered because it can outrange the rest, or outdamage them at kiting range.

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Same speed, close range? I'd like to see you pull this one off. If I mwd towards you and suddenly we both get webbed, I will get a lot closer than webber range by momentum. Closer, as in where long range guys get shredded.

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No. Amarr LONG range is below Caldari LONG range. Are you gonna KITE with a sniper? What is that? Kiting is something that is done INSIDE 24 KM. Period. Where the guy that can fight with short range guns has the advantage.

Amarr SHORT range is LONGER than Caldari SHORT range. They cannot be out-kited by a similar class ship, except if they are both fitted with long range guns. In which case, in kiting range, it will outdamage the other via the fact that their long-range guns are the most damaging.

Ergo, the amarrians are probably the best suited race to damage something in kiting range. Either with short or long range guns, depending on class. Anyway, they would be if their cap use were not broken...
You either kite inside 24km or you don't kite at all. No tackling-no kiting. Amarrians can fight effectively at that range, so no problem.

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You say the one with the range must not have the speed, because he won't let the other get in range. By that count, Gallente should be the fastest. Ouch????
I reply, that the one with the speed will dictate his own best range, whether long, short or medium. Inside 24 km anyway. That means that the fastest must be the one with less firepower or tank, not the one with the least range. Because EVE is balancing damage with range no matter what we argue.
IF what you said was true and speed was a function of range, the fastest would be the closest range->best damage, so would charge you and shred you cause you could do nothing to keep him away, and close range he would have the advantage.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Better skills, flying skills and piloting tricks may make it win, but at the end of the day, you start at a disadvantage. That your alliance mates use them effectively means nothing. They still need another gun - because they have nothing to "compensate" for its loss. They pay for their range with damage.

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Personally I would say it gets a resistance bonus for the damage bonus but, yes. However it is still not the worst tier3 cruiser, the maller is still a good deal worse. And not because of "laser sux" but because it has no flexibility. Nevermind the caracal vs the omen. Caldari might not have the best cruisers in the world, but neither do they have the worst cruisers.

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Originally by: Incantare

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So what are you saying, that it's OK for the Moa to be inferior to the Minmatar and Gallente t3 cruisers because the Maller is worse? I come to a different conclusion, that both the Maller and Moa need a buff to compete with their Minmatar and Gallente counterparts. As for Caldari not having the worse cruisers: it's true, the Blackbird is an excellent support ship. The Arbitrator is a great combat ship. The rest of the Amarr and Caldari cruisers do not stack up to Gal and Minnie's. That makes Caldari tied for worse.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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The caracal is an excellent ship and definately equal to the vexor and stabber.

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Originally by: Incantare

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Excellent at running level 2 missions, and that's it. Its performance in PvP is poor, even in gang.

Have you ever flown one?

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Originally by: Incantare

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Then why are you opposed to a fix?

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Originally by: king jks

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Pfft. I love my alt's cerb for pvp. Nice tank, good damage, awesome range.

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Originally by: Incantare

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Edited by: Incantare on 05/07/2007 02:08:17

Originally by: king jks

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Pfft. I love my alt's cerb for pvp. Nice tank, good damage, awesome range.

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Are you replying to the OP?

Because I do not see what that has to do with the Caracal in relation to the other tier 3 cruisers, besides sharing the same hull.

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Originally by: Incantare

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Does the Caracal have gank? No it doesn't, its damage with heavies is low and it cannot be effectively set up with HAMs because of its low grid. DPS wise the Vexor outdoes it badly. A stabber ins't much better off but only because it is generally set up for speed firing barrage in falloff. A Stabber set up for gank firing hail inside web range greatly outdamages a Caracal, even with HAMs. But no one does that because it's a sub-optimal setup.

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Does the Caracal have tank? No despite having five mid slots, again low grid, low cap amount. The Vexor can load up on nos and still do solid dps while tanking. The Stabber's speed makes it extremely survivable.

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So what does the Caracal have? It is good at killing small craft with assault missiles, but so is the Vexor with light drones and the Stabber is an excellent support killer.

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And as an e-war platform, yes it can work but a blackbird's disabling abilities are much more valuable, not to mention the Celestis.

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Also two of these ships are good solo cruisers, one is not.

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As for not being the right fix, why don't you suggest one ?

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Originally by: Carniflex

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Oh well. Missiles and turrets are just different.

Missiles have also their drawbacks. For example '2007.07.05 05:49:11 Combat Your Caldari Navy Devastator Cruise Missile hits Spider Drone II, doing 0.1 damage.' <- that is with 4 navy BCU's.

With turrets you can kill stuff easily that MWD's straight towards you. With missiles you kill them when they settle in orbit.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Also two of these ships are good solo cruisers, one is not.

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Why not? With some EW a caracal can be a relatively dangerous opponent.

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