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PWNERIZE	Posted - 2007.07.03 15:54:00 - [121] I do fly Caldari ships and you didn't understand a thing. I took classical arguments presented on this forum by people who fly other races and don't have a clue about the problems Caldari has. Are you slow ?
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.03 15:59:00 - [122] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Kagura Nikon Complain too much. Caldari have great recons, that can disable most enemies as easily as an arazu can. Caldari have a good sniper, and a great EWAR battleship. in amy group of more than 2 players there is no better BS to be there. Crow... nothing else to speak about it. Caracal and relatives. Put assault Missile alunchers and you have an incredble frig powning ship. Ceptors without snakes cry when they find one of those. Ravens.. ask Burn eden... if you are too stcuk inside teh box to think how to use this wonderfull ship.... You can start by 2 Sensor boosters and 3 dampeners... teh rest you realize yourself. get a clue. I say get a clue yourself. These are all real setups and concepts used with greta success all around. Again, ask Burn eden if the Raven sucks for PVP. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2007.07.03 15:59:00 - [123] kind of a noob here, but some other guy said it that he had crap missle skills. I do as well, because I can think of about 9 things off the top of my head that would help me more in PVP. all of them are in the catagories of engineering, gunnery and navigation. I understand that if you are caldari, you get all sorts of bonuses to time of flight, firing speed and damage. Still...they just take to friggen long to get to the target. That being said, I have crap missle skills as I know that there are skill to increase speed and all of that. I cant imagine that it compares to instadamage that comes from my 1200s at 50km compared to missles at 50km or even farther for that matter. Right now, I use missles like something you turn on and forget about while I focus on cap drain or webbing. _______________________________________________ It is people like the OPer which cause MMO games to suck because they have that "the grass is greener on the other side" syndrome so developers s
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2007.07.03 15:59:00 - [124] Originally by: PWNERIZE I do fly Caldari ships and you didn't understand a thing. I took classical arguments presented on this forum by people who fly other races and don't have a clue about the problems Caldari has. Are you slow ? I don't understand anything because you talk like a kid, then say oh but it's sarcastic.. ah, oh well.. sorry then.. :P :)
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2007.07.03 16:01:00 - [125] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Kagura Nikon Complain too much. Caldari have great recons, that can disable most enemies as easily as an arazu can. Caldari have a good sniper, and a great EWAR battleship. in amy group of more than 2 players there is no better BS to be there. Crow... nothing else to speak about it. Caracal and relatives. Put assault Missile alunchers and you have an incredble frig powning ship. Ceptors without snakes cry when they find one of those. Ravens.. ask Burn eden... if you are too stcuk inside teh box to think how to use this wonderfull ship.... You can start by 2 Sensor boosters and 3 dampeners... teh rest you realize yourself. get a clue. I say get a clue yourself. These are all real setups and concepts used with greta success all around. Again, ask Burn eden if the Raven sucks for PVP. Kagura, just because you "heard" that see Burn Eden use Armor tanked Ravens in numbers and are effective doesn' mean Caldari ships in general are in PvP. Thank you for another cliche. Black
PWNERIZE	Posted - 2007.07.03 16:01:00 - [126] I don't "talk like a kid", my post's intention was to show how ridiculous those arguments are, if you browse other threads on this topic you will see those exact same arguments presented in the same fashion.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2007.07.03 16:06:00 - [127] Originally by: PWNERIZE I don't "talk like a kid", my post's intention was to show how ridiculous those arguments are, if you browse other threads on this topic you will see those exact same arguments presented in the same fashion. okay, thank you for clarifying, sorry if i did not get your point or intention. all is well it's only a forum.
PWNERIZE	Posted - 2007.07.03 16:08:00 - [128] No worries, I can see why this thread puts you on edge.
Pelagiad Minmatar Project Gemini	Posted - 2007.07.03 16:26:00 - [129] Originally by: PWNERIZE I do fly Caldari ships and you didn't understand a thing. I took classical arguments presented on this forum by people who fly other races and don't have a clue about the problems Caldari has. Are you slow ? Actually maybe this is just a case of the grass is greener for some other race. Point is maybe you don't understand the problems other races have that they have overcome....think creatively FTW. that is the point of the BE argument. Pel.
Joshua Lonestar	Posted - 2007.07.03 16:29:00 - [130] Originally by: Pelagiad Originally by: PWNERIZE I do fly Caldari ships and you didn't understand a thing. I took classical arguments presented on this forum by people who fly other races and don't have a clue about the problems Caldari has. Are you slow ? Actually maybe this is just a case of the grass is greener for some other race. Point is maybe you don't understand the problems other races have that they have overcome....think creatively FTW. that is the point of the BE argument. Pel. And there we have it. Those who can think for themselves can fly ANY race effectively. Those children looking for someone to hand them an "I win" button....Well, get to training Gallente. I like Cladari. I dont need another race. I just need a few more skills to maximize my Caldari ships. And for the record, I use the gunz.
PWNERIZE	Posted - 2007.07.03 16:33:00 - [131] Originally by: Pelagiad Actually maybe this is just a case of the grass is greener for some other race. Point is maybe you don't understand the problems other races have that they have overcome....think creatively FTW. that is the point of the BE argument. Pel. I fly Caldari but also Gallente and Minmatar up to BC. I do not fly Amarr beyond frigate and refuse to train them further until they are fixed. And while it is true that something can be made out of even the worst ship with some thought, why should I have to jump through hoops just to compete when playing Caldari when Minmatar and Gallente do not have to?
AnKahn	Posted - 2007.07.03 16:39:00 - [132] Is EvE really a role players game? Since we can cross train WTF does it matter about race? You buy a Lexus or a Corvette, you kinda know what your getting. I would not want all brands of cars to be the same. If I want to solo PvP (and tackle) I will train Gallente. After that, with Gallente and Caldari skill I'll train Minmatar. Now if you're playing another game and you choose to be a healer for example, at lvl 70 you cant just one day decide you want to use swords, can you? You might be stuck with cloth "armor" or something. You'd have to train a whole new character and grind levels all over again. EvE is just so much better because you're free to CROSS-TRAIN. So much noise and emotion. There's no best race. You're free to fly any race and not have to start over. Oy.
PWNERIZE	Posted - 2007.07.03 16:40:00 - [133] Edited by: PWNERIZE on 03/07/2007 16:43:31 What kind of argument is that? It's OK the races aren't balanced because I can simply train another race. Lol? By your logic we should all play the FOTM. Do not forget that Eve is all about specialisation, training one race's skills to an advanced level takes time, time which cannot be redistributed into another race. Of course there is some overlap between the races but that isn't the point.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2007.07.03 17:40:00 - [134] Originally by: PWNERIZE Edited by: PWNERIZE on 03/07/2007 16:48:20 What kind of argument is that? It's OK the races aren't balanced because I can simply train another race. Lol? By your logic we should all play the FOTM. Do not forget that Eve is all about specialisation, training one race's skills to an advanced level takes time, time which cannot be redistributed into another race. Of course there is some overlap between the races but that isn't the point. Here's an analogy, the Starcraft balance team: Tester 1: Umm the Terran are badly underpowered in this next patch, shouldn't we fix them? Tester 2: Nah don't worry, players are free to pick Protoss or Zerg. Except in eve it's worse because there is time invested. Good job m8 :) now i really like you !!! :)
PWNERIZE	Posted - 2007.07.03 20:06:00 - [135] Originally by: Black Scorpio Good job m8 :) now i really like you !!! :) That was a radical change of opinion.
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2007.07.03 20:08:00 - [136] I see both sides I think which makes me ask the question...How do you fix it without unbalancing something else? I mean if you increase missle damage to compensate, then other races ships get delegated for support roles in fleet battles because fleet commanders are just going to want insane caldari damage. Increasing missle speed isnt gonna solve it, unless its damn close to insta damage but then that would give them extreme power as their damage is guaranteed no matter what range. If you make caldari ships faster, that pretty much negates minmatars Do you make them highly resistant to web/nos? All kinds of problems there. So I think both sides are right. Yes Caldari and solo PVP = underpowered. However boosting them seriously ****s with the balance of the game right? Or is there some other way? _______________________________________________ It is people like the OPer which cause MMO games to suck because they have that "the grass is greener on the other side" syndrome so developers s
Goewyn Ravenclaw Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.07.03 20:18:00 - [137] Originally by: Atius Tirawa - or - train Minmatar like a lot of FOTM people I Never thought I would ever have seen FOTM and Minmatar in the same sentence! Originally by: Atius Tirawa Finally, 3.5 mil in missles is not that much. . . QFT. Seriously, if you had 3.5 mill in gunnery it wouldn't be a lot either. ______________________________ A closed mouth inserts no foot
PWNERIZE	Posted - 2007.07.03 20:42:00 - [138] Originally by: Sharupak I see both sides I think which makes me ask the question...How do you fix it without unbalancing something else? I mean if you increase missle damage to compensate, then other races ships get delegated for support roles in fleet battles because fleet commanders are just going to want insane caldari damage. Increasing missle speed isnt gonna solve it, unless its damn close to insta damage but then that would give them extreme power as their damage is guaranteed no matter what range. If you make caldari ships faster, that pretty much negates minmatars Do you make them highly resistant to web/nos? All kinds of problems there. So I think both sides are right. Yes Caldari and solo PVP = underpowered. However boosting them seriously ****s with the balance of the game right? Or is there some other way? Woah, easy there. I think I can safely say that Caldari players would be happy with a buff to their PvP ability, any buff however small. I do not want to see Caldari as fast as Minmatar, that would be unbalanced not to mention it wouldn't make sense. I do not want to see Caldari have Gallente's in your face damage at range, that would be unbalanced as well. But I believe small incremental changes can be made to put Caldari on par with the other races not necessarily in solo as that would be hard to do (thank you CCP for poorly designing the race from the start) but in general. I think a good start would be to lower Caldari mass, from what I understand Caldari's ridiculously high mass and low speed are the result of an old nerf from when missiles dealt huge damage to targets of any size. Since then missiles were nerfed to take into account velocity / signature radius and are no longer uber, but the mass nerf has remained. Correct me if I'm wrong on that as it was before I joined Eve.
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.03 20:49:00 - [139] Edited by: Neuromandis on 03/07/2007 20:48:32 Originally by: PWNERIZE Woah, easy there. I think I can safely say that Caldari players would be happy with a buff to their PvP ability, any buff however small. I do not want to see Caldari as fast as Minmatar, that would be unbalanced not to mention it wouldn't make sense. I do not want to see Caldari have Gallente's in your face damage at range, that would be unbalanced as well. But I believe small incremental changes can be made to put Caldari on par with the other races not necessarily in solo as that would be hard to do (thank you CCP for poorly designing the race from the start) but in general. I think a good start would be to lower Caldari mass, from what I understand Caldari's ridiculously high mass and low speed are the result of an old nerf from when missiles dealt huge damage to targets of any size. Since then missiles were nerfed to take into account velocity / signature radius and are no longer uber, but the mass nerf has remained. Correct me if I'm wrong on that as it was before I joined Eve. I think your posts are getting incrementally better and more eloquent. I agree exactly 100% I hope you get a portrait soon as well :)
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2007.07.03 20:51:00 - [140] Originally by: PWNERIZE Originally by: Sharupak I see both sides I think which makes me ask the question...How do you fix it without unbalancing something else? I mean if you increase missle damage to compensate, then other races ships get delegated for support roles in fleet battles because fleet commanders are just going to want insane caldari damage. Increasing missle speed isnt gonna solve it, unless its damn close to insta damage but then that would give them extreme power as their damage is guaranteed no matter what range. If you make caldari ships faster, that pretty much negates minmatars Do you make them highly resistant to web/nos? All kinds of problems there. So I think both sides are right. Yes Caldari and solo PVP = underpowered. However boosting them seriously ****s with the balance of the game right? Or is there some other way? Woah, easy there. I think I can safely say that Caldari players would be happy with a buff to their PvP ability, any buff however small. I do not want to see Caldari as fast as Minmatar, that would be unbalanced not to mention it wouldn't make sense. I do not want to see Caldari have Gallente's in your face damage at range, that would be unbalanced as well. But I believe small incremental changes can be made to put Caldari on par with the other races not necessarily in solo as that would be hard to do (thank you CCP for poorly designing the race from the start) but in general. I think a good start would be to lower Caldari mass, from what I understand Caldari's ridiculously high mass and low speed are the result of an old nerf from when missiles dealt huge damage to targets of any size. Since then missiles were nerfed to take into account velocity / signature radius and are no longer uber, but the mass nerf has remained. Correct me if I'm wrong on that as it was before I joined Eve. I played this game for a bit when it first came out, and the missle thing was correct...thats why I mentioned the fleet engagements. They were just misslefests with the raven being the baddest ship. However, they didnt have capitals and space stations as well as all the small support role ships like intys and dictors and stuff. Caldari would probably have to be the all around race faster than the others except minmatars, better drones than all but gallente, better ew than all but amarr. Maybe small boost in all areas but not too much. _______________________________________________ It is people like the OPer which cause MMO games to suck because they have that "the grass is greener on the other side" syndrome so developers s
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.03 22:23:00 - [141] Originally by: Sharupak Caldari would probably have to be the all around race faster than the others except minmatars, better drones than all but gallente, better ew than all but amarr. Maybe small boost in all areas but not too much. Well, I think you're asking for a bit too much. IMO, things should be like: 1) Shield: Caldari>minmatar>gallente>amarr CHECK 2) Armor: Amarr>Gallente>Minmatar>Caldari CHECK 3) Speed: Minmatar>Caldari/Gallente>Amarr NOT check (Caldari a lot worse than gallente) 4) Guns: Amarr>Caldari/Gallente (different philosophy)>Minmatar NOT check (Amarr fraked by cap problems, Caldari a bit worse than minmatar due to lack of hardpoints) 5) Missiles: Caldari>Minmatar>Amarr>Gallente CHECK 6) Drones: Gallente>Amarr>Minmatar>Caldari Almost check (Caldari having ships with too few drones) 7) EW: Caldari>Gallente>Minmatar/amarr Not check (lots of reasons. Minmatar royally screwed) But, since this is a Caldari thread, check 3 and 4: As written before, and basically this being half the point of the OP (it may be about missiles specifically, but between the lines you can read "Caldari don't pvp very well, why?"). Fix: Caldari seem to need one more turret on their gunships and a little more speed to be about the same as Gallente. Flame away.
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2007.07.03 22:58:00 - [142] Originally by: Neuromandis Originally by: Sharupak Caldari would probably have to be the all around race faster than the others except minmatars, better drones than all but gallente, better ew than all but amarr. Maybe small boost in all areas but not too much. Well, I think you're asking for a bit too much. IMO, things should be like: 1) Shield: Caldari>minmatar>gallente>amarr CHECK 2) Armor: Amarr>Gallente>Minmatar>Caldari CHECK 3) Speed: Minmatar>Caldari/Gallente>Amarr NOT check (Caldari a lot worse than gallente) 4) Guns: Amarr>Caldari/Gallente (different philosophy)>Minmatar NOT check (Amarr fraked by cap problems, Caldari a bit worse than minmatar due to lack of hardpoints) 5) Missiles: Caldari>Minmatar>Amarr>Gallente CHECK 6) Drones: Gallente>Amarr>Minmatar>Caldari Almost check (Caldari having ships with too few drones) 7) EW: Caldari>Gallente>Minmatar/amarr Not check (lots of reasons. Minmatar royally screwed) But, since this is a Caldari thread, check 3 and 4: As written before, and basically this being half the point of the OP (it may be about missiles specifically, but between the lines you can read "Caldari don't pvp very well, why?"). Fix: Caldari seem to need one more turret on their gunships and a little more speed to be about the same as Gallente. Flame away. I could see that, maybe not another turret, but more turret hardpoints to give them the option of pvp setup or a pve missle boat. _______________________________________________ It is people like the OPer which cause MMO games to suck because they have that "the grass is greener on the other side" syndrome so developers s
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.03 23:25:00 - [143] Edited by: Neuromandis on 03/07/2007 23:27:20 Originally by: Sharupak I could see that, maybe not another turret, but more turret hardpoints to give them the option of pvp setup or a pve missle boat. I don't understand what you mean... I am speaking of an extra turret hardpoint on all gunships bar the harpy and the Rokh (obviously). This includes Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Eagle Vulture. What are you referring to? The current missileboats? Or is there some other kind of confusion here?
Dimmizer Caldari Conducti	Posted - 2007.07.04 00:47:00 - [144] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Dimmizer If you can dude keep training your missiles skills and get them up they will keep doing damage.. use webbers and jams so they cant run and if u can use senor dampener drones as they work ALOT better then ECM drones and yeah they dont lock the target down but they reduce his maximum target range by alot so if hes 40km out and you don't want him attacking you use senor damps and trust me he will be ****ed casue then he has to come closer to you. I use Drake's for PVP here is my setup depending upon what your fighting and yes i do this solo too. ~~Heavy~~ 7x Heavy Launchers 1x Medium NOS or 1x Medium maby a large smartbomb ~~Medium~~ 1x t2 shield recharger 3x t2 shield exstenders 1x t2 invulnerability field ~~Small~~ 4x t2 shield power relays 1x t2 bcs (Ballistics Control System) ~~Drones~~ 4x Medium Senor Dampener Drones (use t2 if you can) or ~~Heavy~~ 7x Heavy Launchers 1x Medium NOS or 1x Medium maby a Large smart bomb ~~Medium~~ 3x t2 shield exstenders 1x Warp Disruptor (Jamming Range 20km) 1x Fleet Webber (90% decrease in maximum speed) ~~Small~~ 5x t2 shield power relays ~~Drones~~ 4x Medium Senor Dampener Drones (use t2 if you can) These setup arnt the best and could use a bit more perfecting but I am still working with them. The setup mainly works well agisnt 1v1 battles with other battleships/cruisers but can also be used to fight multiple cruisers even maby 2 battle cruisers if done correctly. T2 damper drones? 5 lowslot Drake? WTF? LOL Yeah i forgot it only has 4 so nvm scratch the 5th slot and the t2 drones i ment Heavy Drones not Medium LOL ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "In order to understand something, one must study all its aspects" www.gahost.org www.graphicsmafia.net
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.04 10:23:00 - [145] Originally by: Neuromandis 3) Speed: Minmatar>Caldari/Gallente>Amarr 4) Guns: Amarr>Caldari/Gallente (different philosophy)>Minmatar Uhh.. I would rather disagree there. In general a races speed is dependant on their range philosophy. Shortrange ships have higher speed, longrange ships lower. There are no indicators at all which paint amarr as "slow" race. "Armortanking" does not equal slow. In fact in the present days high energy eletronic equipment (shields) is usually far heavier than advanced armor material. Minmatar>Gallente>Amarr>Caldari And for guns - minmatar LAST?? They are at least as much gun focussed as gallente. Hell, it's even in many ship descriptions "... is favouring the "lots of guns" approach". Of al lraces caldari have the least amount of gunships. I do not realyl see how you could argue for caldari there. Amarr>Minmatar/Gallente>Caldari
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.04 13:28:00 - [146] Edited by: Neuromandis on 04/07/2007 13:31:30 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Neuromandis 3) Speed: Minmatar>Caldari/Gallente>Amarr 4) Guns: Amarr>Caldari/Gallente (different philosophy)>Minmatar Uhh.. I would rather disagree there. In general a races speed is dependant on their range philosophy. Shortrange ships have higher speed, longrange ships lower. There are no indicators at all which paint amarr as "slow" race. "Armortanking" does not equal slow. In fact in the present days high energy eletronic equipment (shields) is usually far heavier than advanced armor material. Minmatar>Gallente>Amarr>Caldari And for guns - minmatar LAST?? They are at least as much gun focussed as gallente. Hell, it's even in many ship descriptions "... is favouring the "lots of guns" approach". Of al lraces caldari have the least amount of gunships. I do not realyl see how you could argue for caldari there. Amarr>Minmatar/Gallente>Caldari Hi Aremendel :) 2 reasons for that. First, Minmatar usually favor a "lots of weapons" approach as far as I can see, not "lots of guns" specifically. That means a big total of guns, drones and missiles. Ships like the Tempest do not rely on "lots of guns" but rather "lots of bonuses". You may better like what I say if I elaborate on the Thorax, Moa and Rupture: If Moa had 5 guns, the "equation 4" I wrote would be perfectly satisfied: Caldari and Gallente have 5 guns, each with a single bonus, Minmatar have 4 guns but with a double bonus, and 2 missiles on top of these as well. You don't disagree with that, do you? By no means do I imply a minnie nerf here, or the number of gunships per race. I just mean that there is no need to have so few guns on Caldari gunships. As far as speed/range comparison goes, there is a very good reason not to have Caldari slower than Gallente. Range is commonly a function of ship bonuses (at least with caldari it is). You usually get range by sacrificing damage output: For example, Moa has an optimal bonus against the Thorax's Damage bonus. That's where the "different philosophy" part that I wrote about refers to: Caldari usually get optimal bonuses to the Gallente damage bonuses: I consider these bonuses equal but different. As far as speed goes, I have made it directly inverse to the "guns" part, simply. Because it is the only way to balance it. In the example above, the Moa has less damage output but better range than the Thorax via its ship bonus. It is balanced by itself, because "good range" ships give up their damage to reach good range. This does not make them more or less powerful (that's why I have put Caldari and Gallente together on the equation even though gallente will clearly do more raw damage - they will do so in short range while in long range Caldaris will have the edge) If Caldaris also give up their speed, they are starting to get badly nerfed. Which is the present day situation: it leaves them at a rather distinct disadvantage. That's why I don't think nerfing the speed in relation to range is not a good way to balance things. That's why I have proposed balancing guns vs. speed. In fact as you probably already know, Caldari speed was nerfed because of past missile overpoweredness which was fixed, but the speed remained nerfed currently nerfing their gunships. Clearer now? Also, for the record, in EVE Armor makes ships heavier (adds mass)and Shield makes ships larger (adds Sig radius). Nothing to do with RL stuff. Only Caldari get both nerfs at once - \|-----------------------\| \| This space for rent \| \|-----------------------\|
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.04 15:06:00 - [147] Originally by: Neuromandis 2 reasons for that. First, Minmatar usually favor a "lots of weapons" approach as far as I can see, not "lots of guns" specifically. That means a big total of guns, drones and missiles. Ships like the Tempest do not rely on "lots of guns" but rather "lots of bonuses". Cannot really agree here. If you look at the minnie ships like the wolf or the muninn (which have the pack as much firepower.. description) you'll see that they are almost pure specialized gunships. The only minnie ships with a real split weapon system are the typhoon and their EW cruisers. All other minnie shipy rely to 75%+ on their gun dps. The "lots of bonuses" also isn't really a valid argument IMO. (t1) Amarr and gallente ships also have double gun boni. They are not two damage boni, but the reason for that lies more in the nature of the weapons. For example, lasers have already high damage, but an insane cap use so they do not get a damage boost but a cap use reduction. It's just as much of a specialisation. Also, I would consider having many bonuses for something as sign that they are a gunnery race, not as sign against it. Quote: That's the reason I have made "speed" directly inverse to the "guns" part, simply. Because I feel it is the only reasonable way to balance it. In the example above, the Moa has less damage output but better range than the Thorax via its ship bonus. It is balanced by itself, because "good range" ships give up their damage to reach good range. This does not make them more or less powerful (that's why I have put Caldari and Gallente together on the equation even though gallente will clearly do more raw damage - they will do so in short range while in long range Caldaris will have the edge). If Caldaris also give up their speed, they are starting to get badly nerfed. Which is the present day situation: it leaves them at a rather distinct disadvantage. I don't think you thought this really through. If both gallente and caldari had equal speed caldari would be a LOT more powerful. Why? Because a moa could keep a throax at range id infinitum. The throax would have no chance at all unless he somehow manages to start the combat right next to the caldari ship. The balance between both is that the moa can damage the throax continuously while the throax tries to get into range and then attempts to use his superior damage to cancle the moas damage headstart out. Also, you would then put amarr in exactly the "distinct disadvantage" hole you claim caldari are in. Just replace "moa" with "maller" in your example. It's exactly the same situation then, exept that the range advantage comes from the weapon and not the ship bonus. And it's also not as simple as you think it is. For shortrange weapons amarr are the "longrange" race, for guns at least. Rockets, HAMs, torps still outrange them. For longrange weapons amarr are the "shortrange" race, they have the smallest effective range there. Making "guns" inverse to "speed" simply does not work. Especialyl since your "guns" is rather questionable. It's not that simple. Quote: Also, for the record, in EVE Armor makes ships heavier (adds mass)and Shield makes ships larger (adds Sig radius). True, point taken.
DHB WildCat BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.07.04 15:54:00 - [148] Edited by: DHB WildCat on 04/07/2007 15:59:33 Its idiots like you that always told me Ravens sucked, and then I joined Burn Eden. Ravens are THE absolute best pvp ship in the game. End of story. If you cant figure out how to use them then too bad, but never think Ravens only equal PVE. Empire noobs
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.04 16:04:00 - [149] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Kagura Nikon Complain too much. Caldari have great recons, that can disable most enemies as easily as an arazu can. Caldari have a good sniper, and a great EWAR battleship. in amy group of more than 2 players there is no better BS to be there. Crow... nothing else to speak about it. Caracal and relatives. Put assault Missile alunchers and you have an incredble frig powning ship. Ceptors without snakes cry when they find one of those. Ravens.. ask Burn eden... if you are too stcuk inside teh box to think how to use this wonderfull ship.... You can start by 2 Sensor boosters and 3 dampeners... teh rest you realize yourself. get a clue. I say get a clue yourself. These are all real setups and concepts used with greta success all around. Again, ask Burn eden if the Raven sucks for PVP. Kagura, just because you "heard" that see Burn Eden use Armor tanked Ravens in numbers and are effective doesn' mean Caldari ships in general are in PvP. Thank you for another cliche. Black You are the one using a cliche! Tell me why a ship with no shield tank bonus is so bad to armor tank!! tell me! 90% of tempests are armor tankers and they have only 1 more low slot. An Armor tanked raven with 5 ewar modules is VERY effective!! I know several peopel that use them! Ever foguth a gang of Ravens with 2 plates + 2 EANm + DC and 2 remote repairers with 6 Ewar slots? Try fight a gang of those with a shield tank ravens gang.. Try fighting thatwith any type of BS and tell me they are easy targets. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.04 16:10:00 - [150] Quote: Ever foguth a gang of Ravens with 2 plates + 2 EANm + DC and 2 remote repairers with 6 Ewar slots? Try fight a gang of those with a shield tank ravens gang.. Try fighting thatwith any type of BS and tell me they are easy targets. Fortunately, no-one will pay any attention to this. They will keep wasting those midslots on a shield tank and bleating about "Caldari are teh suxzors!1", never once breaking out of the cookie-cutter mentality into the realms of independent thought and innovation. Midslots = win. Sort of.

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