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On the subject of Concorde space suicide looting!

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Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:11:00 - [91] Edited by: Corben Ei on 05/07/2007 22:12:09 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Corben Ei You too are missing the point. There are ab****ely NO CONSEQUENCES for these guys. They were on TRIAL ACCOUNTS! Trial accounts are utterly inconsequential in and of themselves anyway, so... Finally we agree on something! Thank you! Pls re-read my top posting, if you have forgotten what this is all about!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:12:00 - [92] Originally by: Corben Ei EXPLOIT! You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. /Ki Joy to the world Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:12:00 - [93] Originally by: Corben Ei Originally by: Malcanis It's been my way since I had about 400k SP. I bought a shiney new Kestrel - I was so proud! - and accidentally wandered into lo-sec on my way to collect some launchers. Got popped. Realised (with the help of a good-natured convo from the guy who popped me) that it was my fault. Realised that EvE was enormously more involved and worthwhile than I had appreciated, and fell in love with the game. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not very good at shooting people. But I am quite good at travelling without being shot (when I'm not getting beer, that is). That's my main PvP and I enjoy it enormously. I also run a small 0.0 corp with some friends I've made in the game, and that's opened up a whole new dimension of the game for me. There are still wide areas about which I know almost nothing, and I LOVE that. I LOVE that I'll still be finding out new stuff in a year; making mistakes, making friends, making enemies. Learning. Looking forward to my 13,000,000th skillpoint in a week or so... I am really happy for you! And I totally get you dude! But you are still missing the point, and you are still not answering my question! What IS an exploit to you then? For example, finding that using a specific module causes desynchronisation to other players, then using that effect to gain unfair kills. More generally, abusing unintended flaws in the game to gain an advantage that has no counter or equivalent in fair play. Repping a criminal who was tanking gate guns used to be possible; then it was classed as an exploit, since it was an illogical limitation of the flagging system; now it gets you flagged. The exploit has been closed. The infamous contract scams that relied on lag also spring to mind. There was no possible counter, and however much we joke about it, lag is not an intended feature. Setting up a specialised small-ship popping destroyer to kill untanked paper-thin covops carrying high-value cargos is definitely not exploiting. It's using game features exactly as intended. The fact that your attackers loss was much less than yours doesn't make it an exploit; it just makes it obvious that his choice of ship & setup was much better than yours. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:12:00 - [94] Originally by: Corben Ei Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Corben Ei You too are missing the point. There are ab****ely NO CONSEQUENCES for these guys. They were on TRIAL ACCOUNTS! Trial accounts are utterly inconsequential in and of themselves anyway, so... Finally we agree on something! Thank you! ...and since they are so inconsequential it really makes no difference if the game's enforced consequences apply to them or not. - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:15:00 - [95] More succinctly: You weren't exploited - you were just owned. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:16:00 - [96] Originally by: Malcanis Setting up a specialised small-ship popping destroyer to kill untanked paper-thin covops carrying high-value cargos is definitely not exploiting. It's using game features exactly as intended. The fact that your attackers loss was much less than yours doesn't make it an exploit; it just makes it obvious that his choice of ship & setup was much better than yours. And we totally disagree here. Their loss was nill - zip - zero!
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:17:00 - [97] Edited by: SiJira on 05/07/2007 22:17:18 i have come to the conclusion that if you cant take precautions in eve you should stop whining and quit right now sure ccp can make guys like you happy - but they will start back at less than 5k players as soon as they do because what makes eve what it is is exactly what you hate - endless possibilities trial account abuse can certaintly be curbed though - that i do agree on something like not allowing you to attack others in high sec - pay for the account first then you can suicide to your hearts content - and be sentences to many months ratting before you can comeback -all new characters whether on a full account or a trial account should have this limit ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:17:00 - [98] Originally by: Corben Ei Originally by: Malcanis Setting up a specialised small-ship popping destroyer to kill untanked paper-thin covops carrying high-value cargos is definitely not exploiting. It's using game features exactly as intended. The fact that your attackers loss was much less than yours doesn't make it an exploit; it just makes it obvious that his choice of ship & setup was much better than yours. And we totally disagree here. Their loss was nill - zip - zero! That just means they're good at the game. I can understand how this might be a revelation to you, but the rest of us are able to play without constantly suffering huge losses. - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:19:00 - [99] Edited by: Corben Ei on 05/07/2007 22:20:13 Originally by: SiJira trial account abuse can certaintly be curbed though - that i do agree on What else do you find me "whining" about? Pls stop using that expression. Its just such a plain stupid way of making a conversation go off track!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:25:00 - [100] Originally by: Corben Ei What else do you find me "whining" about? Originally by: Corben Ei I travel in 0.0 space on a daily basis. I have no problem in being shot to pieces there. In fact I enjoy it! High-Sec is a completely different story. There are two games in EVE. 0.0 is for PVP! That's what we are arguing against, dude. Trial account abuse is already prohibited. If that's all that's bugging you, petition it again. /Ki Joy to the world Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:30:00 - [101] Originally by: Ki An That's what we are arguing against, dude. Trial account abuse is already prohibited. If that's all that's bugging you, petition it again. That was not my whining. Re-read my top-post. What you are referring to was merely a statement of an opinion! I still hold that opinion! But if you are forced to take consequences, PvP in +0.5 is fine with me. No result on re-submitting the Petition! Not so far anyway!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:34:00 - [102] Originally by: Corben Ei Originally by: Ki An That's what we are arguing against, dude. Trial account abuse is already prohibited. If that's all that's bugging you, petition it again. That was not my whining. Re-read my top-post. What you are referring to was merely a statement of an opinion! I still hold that opinion! But if you are forced to take consequences, PvP in +0.5 is fine with me. No result on re-submitting the Petition! Not so far anyway! Keep in mind that because they didn't exploit to do something they normally couldn't, but rather simply to avoid consequences, you won't get your stuff back. - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:42:00 - [103] Originally by: Ki An That's what we are arguing against, dude. Trial account abuse is already prohibited. If that's all that's bugging you, petition it again. In the answer CCP GM refers to the use of a trial account for this sort of action as a "legit game mechanics" so you are apparently wrong!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:44:00 - [104] Originally by: Corben Ei In the answer CCP GM refers to the use of a trial account for this sort of action as a "legit game mechanics" so you are apparently wrong! Reword it. It's not using trial accounts to suicide that is the exploit. It's recycling the alt when the sec status gets too low that is the exploit. Might be hard to prove tho. /Ki Joy to the world Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Morhon Amarr Aegis Starship Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:50:00 - [105] I have been cargo scanned several times in the last few days while in an indy and must say I do find it a bit worrying. However, I was in an indy and you were in a Cheetah, they shouldn't have even seen you let alone scanned you I don't like the current Sucide gank trend but you have to face the fact that flying about with extremely expensive items in your hold in a covert ops ship and not bothering to use your cloak is kinda silly Does my bum look big in this cape?
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:50:00 - [106] Originally by: Ki An Reword it. It's not using trial accounts to suicide that is the exploit. It's recycling the alt when the sec status gets too low that is the exploit. Might be hard to prove tho. Try "impossible"! What I can prove is that I was shot down by ppl on accounts that are 4 days old, which were created at the same station, for apparently one purpose only.
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:53:00 - [107] Anyone that performs an agressive action that requires concord intervention should be activly chased by concord to lowsec... Don't allow them to dock in a high-sec empire station for 24 hours and have concord KOS them in high empire, forcing them to go to lowsec for at least 24 hours. This would prevent continous suicide ganking against random ppl for hours on end and help populate lowsec with the scum it deserves. Hell even the pirate wannabes can hunt the wussy suicide gankers that find themselves in deep concord trouble. If players A-M decide they want to gank haulers or freighters in highsec.. Ok.. but once concord rolls in it should hit everyone that attacked with a 24 hour agression timer allowing Concord to kill on sight. Prevent anyone with a concord timer from docking in high sec stations forcing them to lowsec or hiding away from Concords LOS (meaning in a safe spot or in a belt somewhere) untill such time as they make a run for lowsec where they wont be KOS to the gates or Concord police near them. This still allows suicide ganking but with actual risk... You have to pick your target very carefully.. make sure you are willing to get KOS to concord for their loot. It will populate lowsec a tad more It will stop the continual suicide ganks by the same alts over and over again in the same system. You can still gank but you have to pay the price which is no high sec for you for 24 hours. Take that trial account gankers!! It will give lowsec pirates more targets to shoot at. It will make empire safer but as so many like to point out.. not safe. As alot of you gankers and pirates love to spew the pathetic risk/reward argument.. the reward is a ferighter full of loot.. the risk is 24 hours stuck in lowsec/0.0 till your concord timer runs out. Or is that too much risk for the gankers and will now be cried about as too much punishment for using 5mill of ship to kill and loot up to 1billion+ in gank target loot? ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:53:00 - [108] Originally by: Morhon I don't like the current Sucide gank trend but you have to face the fact that flying about with extremely expensive items in your hold in a covert ops ship and not bothering to use your cloak is kinda silly No! The fact that you can exploit a Trial Account in this manner is silly! If you had to face the consequences as the game mechanics are intended to (loss of status etc) you would not see so many attacks on ppl in high-sec! It is as simple as that!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:57:00 - [109] Originally by: Corben Ei Originally by: Morhon I don't like the current Sucide gank trend but you have to face the fact that flying about with extremely expensive items in your hold in a covert ops ship and not bothering to use your cloak is kinda silly No! The fact that you can exploit a Trial Account in this manner is silly! If you had to face the consequences as the game mechanics are intended to (loss of status etc) you would not see so many attacks on ppl in high-sec! It is as simple as that! No. Most people aren't dumb enough to move gear in a ship that can be taken down by trial accounters. - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:59:00 - [110] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Or is that too much risk for the gankers and will now be cried about as too much punishment for using 5mill of ship to kill and loot up to 1billion+ in gank target loot? Your suggestion is not necessarily a bad one, but this idiotic carebear attitude taints it. If you managed to transport 1B worth of stuff in such a way that a 5M ship can take it out, you deserve it. - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:59:00 - [111] Originally by: Crumplecorn Most people aren't dumb enough to move gear in a ship that can be taken down by trial accounters. I simply cannot argue against comments like this! If you have still not understood that my point is that Trial Account suicides like this is an EXPLOIT and therefore should be banned or made impossible, you will not get it! Get it?
Turin Caldari RONA Deepspace	Posted - 2007.07.05 23:00:00 - [112] Dont bother posting stuff like this here. No one will listen or care. I personally find it a HUGE abuse of Game Mechanics myself. Because those guys on Trial accounts? They are not new players. Just cowards looking for targets that cant fight back. And also hide their true in game identity to negate any possible reaction. By tomorrow, those same guys will have new trial accounts, and your kill rights are useless, and they have transferd the isk they made suiciding people to their main accounts. Why people cannot see that as wrong, I simply do not understand. The fact that exsisting long time players are making new trial accounts almost daily to PVP in empire with is dumb and unhealthy for the game imo. And I would bet that 90% of the current active trial accounts belong to people like this. ________________________________________________________
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 23:10:00 - [113] Originally by: Crumplecorn So, yes it is unfortunate they don't have to face the consequences, but this doesn't have any major effect on the game. You are absolutely wrong! If they had to face consequences, these actions would lower to anything from a minimum to non-existing. There is a clear "rule" in this game - a game mechanism - that says that if you do that, you will loose something. Trial Accounts do not loose anything, and the loot is transfered to accounts that also loose nothing! It is a circumvention of a rule - a game mechanism! That is the definition of an EXPLOIT.
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 23:13:00 - [114] Originally by: Morhon To be fair I think you would be just as miffed if they were not trial accounts. I don't see how making it impossible for trials will stop it anyway. Most of the people that scanned me were in cruisers or in ships that couldn't have killed me fast enough anyway. You do get 3 chars per account and for some it's worth the sec loss if there is a big fat pay out at the end of it. I would be annoyed as hell if I got blown up and lost all that isk, but I do get that empire isn't safe and switching on your AP is a gamble. I don't like it atall either but you didn't bother to cloak so I have less sympathy for you. Sorry. I disagree. Facing the consequences as laid out by the game mechanism rules will significantly lower the problem. And scanning you is not the same as shooting at you. You let the Trial Account do the dirty work for you.
Turin Caldari RONA Deepspace	Posted - 2007.07.05 23:14:00 - [115] Actually. that IS the point. Those same people who are making the trial accountys would A.) Be able to be wardecced, killed and hung. b.) wouldnt be allowed in empire anymore because the sec status would eventually get to low for them. They are avoiding the consequinces of the game by doing this. There is a REASON you are supposed to take a Sec status hit when you kill people in PVP/Empire. They are totally avoiding this penalty by the use of trial accounts. Its Bull$hit no mater how you look at it. There is NOTHING anyone can say to defend that line of thinking. ________________________________________________________
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 23:19:00 - [116] Originally by: Corben Ei Originally by: Crumplecorn So, yes it is unfortunate they don't have to face the consequences, but this doesn't have any major effect on the game. You are absolutely wrong! If they had to face consequences, these actions would lower to anything from a minimum to non-existing. There is a clear "rule" in this game - a game mechanism - that says that if you do that, you will loose something. Trial Accounts do not loose anything, and the loot is transfered to accounts that also loose nothing! It is a circumvention of a rule - a game mechanism! That is the definition of an EXPLOIT. Yes, I do not disagree, it is an exploit. However, it is a very minor one. As I pointed out, the vast majority of suicide ganking does not utilize this exploit, as few people are stupid enough to move large amounts of assets in ships weak enough to be destroyed by trial accounters, thus is has a very minor effect on the game. - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 23:25:00 - [117] Originally by: Crumplecorn Yes, I do not disagree, it is an exploit. So you believe that exploits should be allowed as long as you believe that it has only minor effects on the game play? How can you seriously state, that this only has a minor effect on the game play? In my opinion this has a major effect on the gameplay, since 680 million worth of resources were blown to pieces today! Thats a serious loss of resources dude! They are - like - gone! In just this incident! How many do you think there are each day? How many would there be if it was banned?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 23:27:00 - [118] Originally by: Corben Ei Originally by: Crumplecorn Yes, I do not disagree, it is an exploit. So you believe that exploits should be allowed as long as you believe that it has only minor effects on the game play? How can you seriously state, that this only has a minor effect on the game play? In my opinion this has a major effect on the gameplay, since 680 million worth of resources were blown to pieces today! Thats a serious loss of resources dude! They are - like - gone! In just this incident! How many do you think there are each day? How many would there be if it was banned? I'm not saying they should be allowed, I'm just pointing out that it is minor. The killing of your ship was not part of the exploit, that was completely legit, it was what was done afterwards which was the exploit. None of your loss was the result of an exploit. The only result of the exploit was the evasion of a sec status hit. - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.07.05 23:31:00 - [119] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Illyria Ambri Or is that too much risk for the gankers and will now be cried about as too much punishment for using 5mill of ship to kill and loot up to 1billion+ in gank target loot? Your suggestion is not necessarily a bad one, but this idiotic carebear attitude taints it. If you managed to transport 1B worth of stuff in such a way that a 5M ship can take it out, you deserve it. Can a non carebear have a carebear attitude?? I dont think so. I live and PvP in 0.0... not empire.. don't make assumptions. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 23:34:00 - [120] Originally by: Crumplecorn I'm not saying they should be allowed, I'm just pointing out that it is minor. The killing of your ship was not part of the exploit, that was completely legit, it was what was done afterwards which was the exploit. None of your loss was the result of an exploit. The only result of the exploit was the evasion of a sec status hit. Again you are completely missing the point I am trying to state. That this EXPLOIT (we thankfully finally agree on that) is available is seriously impacting the number of this sort of incidents in High-sec space. This will, in my opinion, have a serious impact on the economy in the game. Being able to only transport goods in big slow ships that can tank Trial Accounters simply takes the air out of trading in Empire, and the market mechanisms will eventually fail when enough ppl have been robbed that way and give up trading alltogether. And you want that T2 module as cheap as possible, dont you? What if nobody bothered manufacturing it any longer, since they cant transport it relatively safely any longer?

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