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Red Crown Kudzu Collective	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:23:00 - [121] Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Butter Dog blah blah supposed "moral high ground" crap Please get off your high horse. You have absolutely no way to prove that they are ISK farmers other than the fact they fly ravens & cloak when you enter local (A good plan really, considering your absolutely terrible local smack). Your entire argument is based on the assumed "fact" that they are indeed ISK farmers, selling their ISK for real life currency and that they work out of a sweat shop. PROVE IT OR OFF Why, why oh why did you have to ask... From a chat I had with a Chinese ISK "Pimp" if you will. Member of the buesrew operation...for the Tl;dr crowd he basically told me IAC and KOS knew he was a farmer-seller and he paid taxes til KOS booted him and he joined IAC. He went on to tell me I couldn't do anything about it because IAC was such a powerful alliance ( You folks) and such...stuff. His english translator is kind of off. For the less clever among us , Regiment = Corp , "Is not also agrees" = "Doesn't that person agree...?" http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/9937/farmer1ps1.jpg http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/5320/farmer2af1.jpg You'll have to use your zoom powers... Now I don't like the ISK selling. The farmers themselves I can sympathize with, but the sellers...not so much. ISK selling is a blight upon any game, and the farmers are honestly really annoying. They ruin the mood if you will. Now is IAC doing the completely correct thing? Not 100%, but its still funny and I think its just fine that they are doing it.
GO MaZ Spartan Industries	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:24:00 - [122] Originally by: Butter Dog IAC have already admitted they know they are farmers, so what is your point? You're getting 2 things severely mixed up here dude... everyone farms for ISK - thats what you do when you rat the same spawns over and over again right, to make isk? Yeah well thats not the same as RMT, or selling your ingame ISK / assets for real currency, which is against the EULA and is a bannable offence. IAC has mentioned nothing about this and indeed cannot prove that buesrew are involved in RMT either. Apologies for using the term "ISK Farmer" in my previous post (which is perfectly legal in terms of the EULA) where I actually meant RMT (which is definitely not legal) - which is the real issue at hand.
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:26:00 - [123] Originally by: Flower Bear Can't deny you've killed me/I've killed you but how is you sitting there cloaked in hostile space and ratting when its clear for isk too much different then what you are claiming these others are doing(Assuming they arent selling isk for cash)? The big difference here is that I play this game to enjoy it. I farm some, I pvp some, I buy shiny things with my ISK. They don't play the game to enjoy it. They don't buy shiny things, they don't PvP unless it's forced down their throat (even then many of them simply roll over and die). The big difference is that they don't play the game, they work it.
CardboardSword42 Applied Eugenics	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:48:00 - [124] Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 30/07/2007 14:11:03 Originally by: Taurequis As mentioned before its not illigal to spend all your time npc'ing. So without any evidence saying their selling isk for real cash why should IAC not have them in their space? Is it because some of their members are from the far east? That smacks of racism to me. Taur You missed the point where IAC admits to decieving and abusing that corp even tho it is in their alliance. Even if buescrew is legit, surely you can't defend IAC for choosing to use such foul tactics? abusing their own member corp while it's too dumb to realize what's going on (probably not dumb, just clueless about the game cause all they care for is isk farming) Any real corp would quickly figure out what is happening and realize that they don't need IAC. I love how you've changed your view from the original post of "We need to punish isk farmers in every way possible and being in IAC rewards them by lending legitimacy" has totally changed into "look how IAC treats its member corps" I'm Ex-Biomass, that makes me cool But now I'm KOS and that makes me cooler 8)
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:54:00 - [125] Originally by: CardboardSword42 Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 30/07/2007 14:11:03 Originally by: Taurequis As mentioned before its not illigal to spend all your time npc'ing. So without any evidence saying their selling isk for real cash why should IAC not have them in their space? Is it because some of their members are from the far east? That smacks of racism to me. Taur You missed the point where IAC admits to decieving and abusing that corp even tho it is in their alliance. Even if buescrew is legit, surely you can't defend IAC for choosing to use such foul tactics? abusing their own member corp while it's too dumb to realize what's going on (probably not dumb, just clueless about the game cause all they care for is isk farming) Any real corp would quickly figure out what is happening and realize that they don't need IAC. I love how you've changed your view from the original post of "We need to punish isk farmers in every way possible and being in IAC rewards them by lending legitimacy" has totally changed into "look how IAC treats its member corps" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunism
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:54:00 - [126] thanks, I like to think that I can change my views based on new information presented during course of discussion
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:13:00 - [127] Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 30/07/2007 17:05:44 thanks, I like to think that I can change my views based on new information presented during course of discussion Quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunism I don't believe that applies to me. It's not my goal to be more popular. I stay true to my principles, which are: a) hatred for isk farmers (the kind that don't play the game to enjoy it) b) despise for player alliances that decieve their own corp members and treat them with contempt (either you say you are against them and kick them or show your support for them all the way) I agree on the latter, i am unaware of what was said exactly by the guys higher up in IAC but i do agree its either kick, or support them as any other member corp.
Akelorian Caldari Mercenaries of Andosia Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:18:00 - [128] Originally by: Sokratesz 4) they paid us to rat in delve, which is hardly our space. they use catch as a base of ops of some kind, ive never seen them rat around there, go ask them if you really want to know.. Thats funny, unless they left catch they were always farming in RNF.
Horatio Nately Caldari 808 Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:48:00 - [129] they cutting in on your officer spawns Eph? --------------------------------------- CEO 808 Enterprises, A Hawaii, USA Playercorp channel 808 ingame
Mattduk Gallente Universal Army	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:53:00 - [130] Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Butter Dog blah blah supposed "moral high ground" crap Please get off your high horse. You have absolutely no way to prove that they are ISK farmers other than the fact they fly ravens & cloak when you enter local (A good plan really, considering your absolutely terrible local smack). Your entire argument is based on the assumed "fact" that they are indeed ISK farmers, selling their ISK for real life currency and that they work out of a sweat shop. PROVE IT OR OFF A fact that if you had read what butter had to say would be clear to you that he has admitted himself. Notice an edit in one of his posts that states 'if indeed they are farmers'. From thereon out he is arguing hypothetically. At least that's my take on it considering the bullet points raised in his posts.
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:03:00 - [131] could one of these isk-farmer.. ahem well-invested corps please get a hold of me? i have a few systems i'd like to rent out. great systems, each have their own stations i'm sure the owners would be willing to work docking rights out with you for. the regions are KDF-GY, ZXIC-7 and F4R2-Q. send me 1 bil for each region you're interested in and you have full access for as long as you require. enjoy! Please stop messing with my signature!!!
Butter Dog The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:06:00 - [132] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Butter Dog blah blah supposed "moral high ground" crap Please get off your high horse. You have absolutely no way to prove that they are ISK farmers other than the fact they fly ravens & cloak when you enter local (A good plan really, considering your absolutely terrible local smack). Your entire argument is based on the assumed "fact" that they are indeed ISK farmers, selling their ISK for real life currency and that they work out of a sweat shop. PROVE IT OR OFF IAC have already admitted they know they are farmers, so what is your point? Stop trying to make a point out of that, cause there isnt. Every once in awhile i 'farm' for ISK too, you gonna hate me for that as well? I think we both know the difference between the kind of farmers who are 'employees', and the the isk-generation activities of 'players'. The corp involved have even admitted that they are the former, so I can't understand why there is even a debate about this. Just kick them and stop making you and your alliance look like collaborators in RL human rights abuses. ---------- signature removed - please do not discuss moderation in your signature graphic - Jacques([email protected])
Helganstandt InNova Tech Inc	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:20:00 - [133] Eph is just mad because they're stealing his officer spawns. It's ok Eph, you're still the king rat ***** in my book, and that will never change.
Map Screen Flat Earth Society Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:22:00 - [134] Edited by: Map Screen on 30/07/2007 18:23:43 Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: Butter Dog blah blah supposed "moral high ground" crap Please get off your high horse. You have absolutely no way to prove that they are ISK farmers other than the fact they fly ravens & cloak when you enter local (A good plan really, considering your absolutely terrible local smack). Your entire argument is based on the assumed "fact" that they are indeed ISK farmers, selling their ISK for real life currency and that they work out of a sweat shop. PROVE IT OR OFF IAC have already admitted they know they are farmers, so what is your point? Stop trying to make a point out of that, cause there isnt. Every once in awhile i 'farm' for ISK too, you gonna hate me for that as well? I think we both know the difference between the kind of farmers who are 'employees', and the the isk-generation activities of 'players'. The corp involved have even admitted that they are the former, so I can't understand why there is even a debate about this. Just kick them and stop making you and your alliance look like collaborators in RL human rights abuses. For such a vocal eAdvocate you sure are pretty terrible if you can't get results from a confession...
fugazii Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:57:00 - [135] Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 30/07/2007 14:11:03 Originally by: Taurequis As mentioned before its not illigal to spend all your time npc'ing. So without any evidence saying their selling isk for real cash why should IAC not have them in their space? Is it because some of their members are from the far east? That smacks of racism to me. Taur You missed the point where IAC admits to decieving and abusing that corp even tho it is in their alliance. Even if buescrew is legit, surely you can't defend IAC for choosing to use such foul tactics? abusing their own member corp while it's too dumb to realize what's going on (probably not dumb, just clueless about the game cause all they care for is isk farming) Any real corp would quickly figure out what is happening and realize that they don't need IAC. All the pieces are there, you just need to put them together. Obviously they stay in the alliance because it benefits them. For some reason they do want the iac tag, who are you the belittle them for wanting it? Its not like they are able to make isk just because they are in iac, so theyre obviously benefitting some way from it. You seem to talk down to the chinese as if they are ignorant, have you ever talked to them? what basis to you throw out these insults on? if they are anything like the chinese in other games, not only are they very nice people but they know very much about the games they play.
fugazii Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2007.07.30 23:07:00 - [136] Originally by: Butter Dog I think we both know the difference between the kind of farmers who are 'employees', and the the isk-generation activities of 'players'. The corp involved have even admitted that they are the former, so I can't understand why there is even a debate about this. Just kick them and stop making you and your alliance look like collaborators in RL human rights abuses. 1)they are a famous farming corp 2)since they are famous for doing so, and has "admitted" to it, they have undoubtedly been reported many times with this info presented 3)since they have been reported they have been investigated 4)they are still around, therefor ccp's investigation found them to not be selling 5)i win, you lose. end of discussion.
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.31 01:32:00 - [137] Why would I treat them like any other IAC corp when they're not ? They have a business arrangement with us, this does not entitle them to the exact same advantages "real" IAC corps enjoy. I don't like it when our allies shoot at them for sport, and there've been some issues with AAA (woah surprising ) Obviously if they're intruding into allies home space and ignore it when told to leave I fully approve of shooting them (same as with normal IAC members who disrespect allies territorial claims and rights). I didn't let them join just for the ISK, I let them join because I found the whole idea hilarious, now they're being removed from alliance at the request of their CEO. Buesrew were very nice to work with, always resolved any issues that came up promptly and generously. When invited to help fight FIX they were eager and contributed impressively. (just one time tho). Their CEO's english isn't half bad either, wish I could say the same for h-y corp, now those guys are horrible to communicate with :\ http://eve.klaki.net/
Wigglytuff Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:07:00 - [138] Originally by: Mr Broker Originally by: Kayleigh Lothian I think he say "Yes" to the fact that there are ratters using macros (and that they also get banned). There are no ratting macros. Go ahead and even try to explain to me on how one would work. Bot enters a system, overview is sorted by name. Program finds the first belt icon, warps to it, anything with a red icon, it kills. If local count changes, it warps to a SS and activates cloak. Once all red icons are dead in a location, it warps to the next on the list, once it has reached the bottom, it warps to the next system (using multiple Waypoints to give an AP that is dozens of jumps yet only a few systems). While it's pretty clear you're either completely oblivious to macroers/farmers, or on their side trying to dillute any discussion, it's not hard to make a bot, at all. EVE is extremely basic compared to WoW, UO or Everquest, and all of those MMOs have bots you can download, activate, and watch run from monster to monster, kill it, loot it, wait and repeat. Bots are not hard to make, they are no more complex than the 'AI' found in many games today. Belt piracy isnt what it used to be.
Bu Jinkan Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:12:00 - [139] Originally by: Butter Dog The corp involved have even admitted that they are the former, so I can't understand why there is even a debate about this. Just kick them and stop making you and your alliance look like collaborators in RL human rights abuses. [/yellow] What human rights abuses are these, precious?
Drachenlord Amarr Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:34:00 - [140] Soooo... the question is, does Tyraxx offer them protection out there... hehe, and will IAC be angry if I shoot some of these guys into next week? ----- While the Enemies of the Emperor still draw breath there can be no peace
Mungad Caldari Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:43:00 - [141] Edited by: Mungad on 31/07/2007 02:43:48 Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk now they're being removed from alliance at the request of their CEO. Quote: Soooo... the question is, does Tyraxx offer them protection out there... hehe, and will IAC be angry if I shoot some of these guys into next week? fire away? _____________________________ I farm isk.
Panconomis Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:27:00 - [142] Bye Buesrew. Thank you for the hilarious drama. I knew it wouldn't last. You will be missed.
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.07.31 06:01:00 - [143] If this corp is so open about their habits, then it's CCP responsibility to handle it, not IAC's. As long as CCP gives the nod and allows them to continue playing the game, what they are doing is legit.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:20:00 - [144] Edited by: Sokratesz on 31/07/2007 07:23:53 Originally by: Wigglytuff Originally by: Mr Broker Originally by: Kayleigh Lothian I think he say "Yes" to the fact that there are ratters using macros (and that they also get banned). There are no ratting macros. Go ahead and even try to explain to me on how one would work. Bot enters a system, overview is sorted by name. Program finds the first belt icon, warps to it, anything with a red icon, it kills. If local count changes, it warps to a SS and activates cloak. Once all red icons are dead in a location, it warps to the next on the list, once it has reached the bottom, it warps to the next system (using multiple Waypoints to give an AP that is dozens of jumps yet only a few systems). While it's pretty clear you're either completely oblivious to macroers/farmers, or on their side trying to dillute any discussion, it's not hard to make a bot, at all. EVE is extremely basic compared to WoW, UO or Everquest, and all of those MMOs have bots you can download, activate, and watch run from monster to monster, kill it, loot it, wait and repeat. Bots are not hard to make, they are no more complex than the 'AI' found in many games today. Heh you done alot of programming lately? It's shy impossible to do that mate. Just think of all the things the logic would have to handle...tank...when to start boosting, when not? Weapons...focus fire, when to reload? What if it runs out of ammo or cap? What if it gets stuck on a roid or runs out of cap mid-warp. It's impossible to write an efficient 0.0 ratting macro. It can be done to a small extent but it would get stuck on an uncheckable variable within minutes.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:15:00 - [145] Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 31/07/2007 08:16:26 Originally by: Sokratesz Heh you done alot of programming lately? It's shy impossible to do that mate. Just think of all the things the logic would have to handle...tank...when to start boosting, when not? Weapons...focus fire, when to reload? What if it runs out of ammo or cap? What if it gets stuck on a roid or runs out of cap mid-warp. It's impossible to write an efficient 0.0 ratting macro. It can be done to a small extent but it would get stuck on an uncheckable variable within minutes. You're either really bad at EvE or programming. You just set EvE to widescreen mode and life is easy, the variables to keep track of are hilariously few and straightforward - as is a building sustained boosting Raven that's cheap. Basically they run a few macroed clients per PC, and usually it'll give an audio alert if local gets new players - some autosafespot, some autolog, but most common is the user-alert method (in some cases visual out-of-game alerts instead of audio). But firing, targetting, warping and HP management are all comletely automated. You're more than a little bit delusional if you run into a 1x WCS Raven with a sustained boosting setup that happens to be around 23/7 and don't raise an eyebrow, or better yet deny that it's nearly entirely automated.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:49:00 - [146] Sure, there are certain tings that can easily be checked but also many others that can't..so untill i see a working one that doesnt need to be checked every few minutes to see if its crashed, i highly doubt they exist.
Taurequis Waylander 01	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:19:00 - [147] Originally by: fugazii Originally by: Butter Dog I think we both know the difference between the kind of farmers who are 'employees', and the the isk-generation activities of 'players'. The corp involved have even admitted that they are the former, so I can't understand why there is even a debate about this. Just kick them and stop making you and your alliance look like collaborators in RL human rights abuses. 1)they are a famous farming corp 2)since they are famous for doing so, and has "admitted" to it, they have undoubtedly been reported many times with this info presented 3)since they have been reported they have been investigated 4)they are still around, therefor ccp's investigation found them to not be selling 5)i win, you lose. end of discussion. exactly, so bloody head slapppingly obvious that why has this thread even got to 6 pages of waffle. If you have evidence that they are farming isk to sell for real cash in some sweatshop - THEN BLOODY WELL GIVE IT TO CCP. So they can investigate for the billionth time. Don't for a second think that they can't track all isk moving in and out of the corp, and its members. Hell if i'm totally wrong and they are actually isk selling for cash, what a bloody stupid operation, so high profile, been reported before, in the public eye. etc etc. Why not just go use a million trial accounts like everyone else. Enough of the forum hand-baggery and high school drama student bombs. Best Regards, Taur
Butter Dog The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:48:00 - [148] Originally by: Sokratesz Sure, there are certain tings that can easily be checked but also many others that can't..so untill i see a working one that doesnt need to be checked every few minutes to see if its crashed, i highly doubt they exist. Talk about denial. Wake up. NPC'ing is not more complex than mining, and the same 'issues' are involved (possibility of getting stuck on roids etc) and overcome. Macros/Bots don't have an issue with NPCing. It happens. And it happens specifically under your alliance banner. ---------- signature removed - please do not discuss moderation in your signature graphic - Jacques([email protected])
MrMajIc VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:00:00 - [149] I do not have a problem catching most of the isk farming ravens ( super sekret fishing rod ) and the ones I do catch curse the day they meet me. Insta log and wait for DT, or Insta die returning to eve :P
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:00:00 - [150] Possibly. But i've had my fair share of both programming scripts (though not specifically for eve) and ratting, and i still see some issues that would be hard to overcome, independent of the programmers skill or time investment.

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