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Sorry but it seems that we need instanced battle fields (WOW ahoi!)

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d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:32:00 - [1] Right now the nodes just CAN'T handle huge fleet engagements and it does not seem that the need for speed initiative did anything but force blobbing. Thus the only solutions are either to fight on dedicated server's who can handle 4-500 people at once (see Jita who can handle 600 people with quite ok performance since the last few patches) or have a limit on how many people can enter a system/node at once. Having a limit of 200 people/node is reasonable i think but quite tricky to implement and probably just would **** off people who have to get in a specific system to get to they're assets. So for epic fleet engagements it would just be simpler to have a dedicated server where all participants jump to and then fight like in a tournaments (wow style). I know this sucks, no more sniping from behind, jumping out, use ueber tactics (at this point with this lagg/desync fest going on tactics became irrelevant anyway tbh)! BUT at least fighting would be possible! After the last 2-3 fleet engagements with 200-500 participants i just CAN'T see any other solution. Do you?
Dread Phantom Caldari Project-Chaos	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:34:00 - [2] Edited by: Dread Phantom on 29/07/2007 11:35:04 How would it being instanced reduce lag, theres still 100s of people fighting, we are up against a problem with very limited hardware/software solutions and social solutions are unrealistic
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:37:00 - [3] Its not so much the number of people but whats going on at the time. When 200 battleships start firing on a POS, Jita would die like any other node. All these calculations are being done server side (trajectory, damage multipliers including skills, gang bonus to shield, resistance calculation, now multiply that by 8 for each turret, and multiply it 200 times again for the number shooting, and then add the fact that each person there has to see whats going on all the time - the amount of computational power thats being utilised is just unreal. DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:40:00 - [4] Originally by: Dread Phantom Edited by: Dread Phantom on 29/07/2007 11:35:04 How would it being instanced reduce lag, theres still 100s of people fighting, we are up against a problem with very limited hardware/software solutions and social solutions are unrealistic Im not sure how the nodes calculate whatever. But on a dedicated server there wont be any asteroids/rats/travelers to calculate. So its whole capacity could be dedicated to the actual fight. Also i would like like to point again to the Jita node which can support 700 people without causing to much lagg/desync/trouble:)
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:43:00 - [5] -Eliminate super-caps from game. Period. -Eliminate POS-based sov rules and the associated sov-based cake and cookie structures. -Introduce a new BB-class ship that features the jump portal generator with a max of 25-50 ships pass-thru per portal generated. -Eliminate Empire-0.0 chokepoints by opening up the map and/or using exploration-based "hidden" star gates . -Eliminate static bubbles. -And so on to open up the game Sounds like fun to me. It won't happen due to too many pilots/alliances having too much invested in pixels...errr....I meant alliance infrastructure...but oh the possibilities . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Z3r0n THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:53:00 - [6] Maybe this would be a solution. And if the numbers are the problem then CCP could simply build a system so 100 (or 50) people from one alliance can join a fight with 100 (or 50) people from a hostile alliance and then fight on their own node which only must support the maximum of 200 (or 100) people. It's simply not possible to balance the load properly as long as a system (or battlefield) doesn't have a maximum user cap. If you can bring as many people as you want then you can be sure that both the attackers and defenders will field as many people as they can.. resulting in huge blobs that crash the node. So maybe a player limit for battles (or battlefields as suggested by the OP) would be a sollution so we can at least pewpew again with more then small gangs and still have some fun.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:07:00 - [7] Edited by: Frug on 29/07/2007 12:07:38 Originally by: R3dSh1ft All these calculations are being done server side (trajectory, damage multipliers including skills, gang bonus to shield, resistance calculation, now multiply that by 8 for each turret, and multiply it 200 times again for the number shooting, and then add the fact that each person there has to see whats going on all the time - the amount of computational power thats being utilised is just unreal. a) have you played video games? That's not actually a whole lot. Not for a dedicated machine. b) the fact that each person has to see what's going on has little effect on the processing of the server. Bandwidth maybe, but I don't think the kind of lag eve gets is a bandwidth issue. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:14:00 - [8] Originally by: RuleoftheBone -Eliminate super-caps from game. Period. -Eliminate POS-based sov rules and the associated sov-based cake and cookie structures. -Introduce a new BB-class ship that features the jump portal generator with a max of 25-50 ships pass-thru per portal generated. -Eliminate Empire-0.0 chokepoints by opening up the map and/or using exploration-based "hidden" star gates . -Eliminate static bubbles. -And so on to open up the game Sounds like fun to me. It won't happen due to too many pilots/alliances having too much invested in pixels...errr....I meant alliance infrastructure...but oh the possibilities . New to EVE huh ? Got 3 words for you QTF goon = A fool, or someone considered silly
Gutsani D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:20:00 - [9] there is this drop down box on the login screen, select serentiy. onoes! its a instant pvp server
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:20:00 - [10] Originally by: R3dSh1ft All these calculations are being done server side (trajectory, damage multipliers including skills, gang bonus to shield, resistance calculation, now multiply that by 8 for each turret, and multiply it 200 times again for the number shooting, and then add the fact that each person there has to see whats going on all the time - the amount of computational power thats being utilised is just unreal. But a dedicated battlefield could pre-load every participant before the battle even started, people would not have to wait a few minutes before the grid actually loads after warping to the fight's location, no node-crashes due to 200 people trying to activate a gate simultaneously... --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:23:00 - [11] Originally by: Gutsani there is this drop down box on the login screen, select serentiy. onoes! its a instant pvp server hmm u chinese? anyway dude i'm serious, if we want 400+ man fleet battles to actually happen and not crash the nodes ccp has to deliver a solution. i think instancing is quite a easy to implement one..
Price Watcher	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:51:00 - [12] CCP will almost certainly not shard the server. They are quite proud of their non-sharded status. It's one of the things that makes EVE unique. I do hope they finally find an unsharded way to fix the lag. Sound off. Turret Effects off. All other Effects off. Zoom out to where you can't see your ship or anyone else's. Now you can fight, but you only get 1-2 frames per second. Kind of takes the fun out of a fleet battle.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:56:00 - [13] Edited by: d026 on 29/07/2007 12:56:27 Originally by: Price Watcher CCP will almost certainly not shard the server. They are quite proud of their non-sharded status. It's one of the things that makes EVE unique. I do hope they finally find an unsharded way to fix the lag. Sound off. Turret Effects off. All other Effects off. Zoom out to where you can't see your ship or anyone else's. Now you can fight, but you only get 1-2 frames per second. Kind of takes the fun out of a fleet battle. doesn't work sorry:)
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:58:00 - [14] ahahahahahahaha Instances... >>> THE BEAUTY OF NEW EDEN <<<
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Verone ahahahahahahaha Instances... got a better solution?
Halo Jones Caldari Oberon Incorporated	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Price Watcher CCP will almost certainly not shard the server. They are quite proud of their non-sharded status. It's one of the things that makes EVE unique. I do hope they finally find an unsharded way to fix the lag. Sound off. Turret Effects off. All other Effects off. Zoom out to where you can't see your ship or anyone else's. Now you can fight, but you only get 1-2 frames per second. Kind of takes the fun out of a fleet battle. Yes turn all off and zoom out so you can't see anything, then use your overview to play an excel based form of pvp, and claim its still a space game. I agree that you need to do the above to play competetively. The foundations of what information is processed and what information is sent to each player at all stages of the event that needs to be looked at. Squadron/Wing/Support targetting, formations and such could be utilised to allow people to focus fire, but in doing so brings in a new set of eqns, where a squadrdons firepower is calculated against the target, not every turret every damn shot etc, average things, and boost for use of fleets. Simplify the processing - cut the server side lag. Simplify the UI - cut the client side lag. Some games actually come with a user friendly UI, even in modifiable formats, 4 years later eve still isn;t close to this. Last patch brought us even more clutter and difficultly in clear perception.
reg keeper The JORG Corporation FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:01:00 - [17] There was a point in eve when we could go haed to head with 100 plus fleets and we would get lag for sure but not this cronic all stopping lets go have a smoke lads form of lag. If they can come up with anything to fix it i would be suprised as eve has grown by 20k since the days I first tried my hand in large scale fleet warfare. As for opening up eve its all ready happened some time back when they re mapped us away from yulai and opened exra gates to O.O The idea of getting rid of POS'S is never going to go well as its a major part of the tera forming future of eve. Hey let just fix the lag and stop adding more content to the game its allready a huge game no need to make it overweight.
Z3r0n THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:02:00 - [18] Originally by: Price Watcher CCP will almost certainly not shard the server. They are quite proud of their non-sharded status. It's one of the things that makes EVE unique. The other thing that makes EVE unique being the insufferable lag.
Price Watcher	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:02:00 - [19] Originally by: Verone ahahahahahahaha Instances... Verone! You old pie-rat! Nice to see you're still active.
Raevenor GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:13:00 - [20] D026, shut up you don't know what the ****. Instances are not the answer.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:14:00 - [21] Originally by: Raevenor D026, shut up you don't know what the ****. Instances are not the answer. so whats the answer smartass? i never said this the one and only solution. just one that would actually work right now!
Hannobaal Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:18:00 - [22] Edited by: Hannobaal on 29/07/2007 13:18:41 Originally by: d026 Originally by: Verone ahahahahahahaha Instances... got a better solution? I wouldn't call something that takes away what I like the most about the game a "solution". ------------------
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:19:00 - [23] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Verone ahahahahahahaha Instances... got a better solution? Wait until the exchange into Revelations is complete and all the new coding, graphics, physics and optimization is complete before whining? More new hardware? More dynamic resource allocation to distribute the server's processing power more adequately to those areas of the game environment that are having issues? Realisation that CCP know there's an issue at times with performance, and that they're trying their hardest to overcome an ever-growing playerbase? Remove killmails? That'd stop a big load of lag in fleet battles with so many mail deliveries... Oh no sorry, that'd prevent all the counterstrike migrants from declaring their leetness as they camp gates in their smartbombing capitals, or lead 200 man blobs in to shoot a control tower for five hours and declare how they "pwnt" their opposition. To be honest, it's irony defined : Bunch of people who want to win so badly and can't face the horror of loss that they get the most MASSIVE blob of players they can. In response their opponent says "omg moar damage!" and fields 150% their numbers. Everyone jumps in, shock horror the server has a brainfart! Nodes die, babies cry, raptor jesus curses everyone, mission runners in Jita lose their CNR's to a Gursitas Arrogator because of a Tsunami of lag and node drops. Cue massive whining on Eve-O about how CCP suck and their crap servers are killing the game, when in fact it's the 500 people too scared about losing a fight out in the middle of nowhere that have caused the issue. If CCP makes fleets stable, people will just think "OMG NOW WE CAN BLOB WITH MOAR PEOPLEZ! TEH SURVUR CAN HANDLE ANOTHAR 500 ON GRID!11ONE DEPLOY TEH TITAN!11" Rinse and repeat cycle. Maybe you could all just stop blobbing? Ever thought of that? Oh no wait... just come to the Eve-Online forums instead, which incidentally are hosted on the SAME SERVER CLUSTER, and contribute even more to the lag and instability by whining how much CCP apparently suck, while failing to remember that without them, you wouldn't even know what the hell a Sensor Booster II was. Alliance warfare never ceases to amuse me. It's like watching someone play Lemmings >>> THE BEAUTY OF NEW EDEN <<<
Idaeus Earned In Blood	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:23:00 - [24] Originally by: Verone Maybe you could all just stop blobbing? Ever thought of that? Not only should you Pay The ManÖ, but you should listen.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:24:00 - [25] it adds more than it takes away. we don't need to interact with that guy in jita if we have a 500+ fleet fight but we need a server who can handle teh calculations for the period of the fight. Because the regular nodes CAN'T handle those we need dedicated servers (instances) where the fight can happen.. it doesent substract much from the game but adds epic fleet warfare!
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:29:00 - [26] Originally by: Verone Maybe you could all just stop blobbing? Ever thought of that? You do realize that instancing would keep the numbers in an engagement down to managable levels? --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Raem Civrie Sons of Enelaise Enelaise	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:32:00 - [27] Originally by: Verone Maybe you could all just stop blobbing? Ever thought of that? I think you kinda answered yourself why that won't happen, unless a unilateral agreement across the EVE political spectrum is reached on reducing blobbing... and then we still have the problem of taking down stuff like POS cyno jammers with anything less than 200 battleships :/ ---- All you do is bark, you never meow
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:33:00 - [28] Originally by: d026 we need dedicated servers (instances) where the fight can happen.. it doesent substract much from the game but adds epic fleet warfare! If you believe this, then you really do have no idea what Eve is all about or what CCP are trying to achieve by creating a seamless game environment on one cluster. The whole principle of using instances, shards, or any other form of environmental split from tranquility be it hardware or software goes against the fundemental principle of what Eve Online is. If you want to play with instances, go raid some dungeon full of Orcs and Goblins for the Holy Shoes of Glarth'Rhphrl'phl (+7 to wtfpwn) for the 500th time in a week. >>> THE BEAUTY OF NEW EDEN <<<
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:39:00 - [29] Originally by: Verone Originally by: d026 we need dedicated servers (instances) where the fight can happen.. it doesent substract much from the game but adds epic fleet warfare! If you believe this, then you really do have no idea what Eve is all about or what CCP are trying to achieve by creating a seamless game environment on one cluster. The whole principle of using instances, shards, or any other form of environmental split from tranquility be it hardware or software goes against the fundemental principle of what Eve Online is. If you want to play with instances, go raid some dungeon full of Orcs and Goblins for the Holy Shoes of Glarth'Rhphrl'phl (+7 to wtfpwn) for the 500th time in a week. i give a **** about a single server if you cant play on it:)
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:40:00 - [30] Originally by: Verone Wait until the exchange into Revelations is complete and all the new coding, graphics, physics and optimization is complete before whining? i'm playing the game NOW not in 2 years. Originally by: Verone Bunch of people who want to win so badly and can't face the horror of loss that they get the most MASSIVE blob of players they can. In response their opponent says "omg moar damage!" and fields 150% their numbers. 1. game mechanics force you to blob on many occasions. 2. its stupid if you try to appeal to peoples good consciences in a mmorpg just to field lesser numbers not hurting the nodes but die to the other blob. 3. we blob because game mechanics allow it and it is advantageous. Originally by: Verone Cue massive whining on Eve-O about how CCP suck and their crap servers are killing the game, when in fact it's the 500 people too scared about losing a fight out in the middle of nowhere that have caused the issue. im not whining im suggesting change, even tough i knew it wont be popular. you on teh otehr hand are trolling and flaming:) Originally by: Verone If CCP makes fleets stable, people will just think "OMG NOW WE CAN BLOB WITH MOAR PEOPLEZ! TEH SURVUR CAN HANDLE ANOTHAR 500 ON GRID!11ONE DEPLOY TEH TITAN!11" No that wont happen because if you are instanced the server could reject any reinforcements if server load gets to high...

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