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DMF KingBob	Posted - 2007.08.05 11:27:00 - [1] in last time i see in pvp that everybody is using remote sensor damper to get out of range and need no tank and making his pvp easy to win i using an sensor booster in my pvp ship but this is not god enough against 2 noobs with Remote Sensor Damper they nosed my out an let her drones do the job @at devs/cpp please stop this if you like remote sensor damper fitted on your ships please dont post an reply nobody need this spam thx
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.05 11:29:00 - [2] So basically you don't want to hear any contra-opinions? Got ya. ---
KingBobs Dawn	Posted - 2007.08.05 11:36:00 - [3] sensor booster is an contra option it is ok to use this stuff on the right ship but not on every ship like a vagabond/curse/merlin and more kind of this this makes pvp too easy (the guy with mo¯t sensor damper and booster wins)
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.05 11:39:00 - [4] The guys with most <offensive module here> over <defensive module here> will always win, that tends to be how these things go. The fact of the matter is you're options for effective e-war are ECM and RSDs. Target Painters are laffo and Tracking Disrupters are both very short range and situation dependent - meet a missile user and those slots are worse the useless. ---
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2007.08.05 11:44:00 - [5] Edited by: DMF KingBob on 05/08/2007 11:47:16 the RSD works great on missiles user too and ECM is fixed and no comparison against the every time working RSD
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.05 11:51:00 - [6] RSDs do not work all the time. They have a fall off with range. They stack. They do absolutely nothing if you're already locked and don't drop their targeting range below yours. ---
Methem The Hand of Mortis	Posted - 2007.08.05 11:56:00 - [7] 2 ships fitted with RSD SHOULD be able to kill a BS with a 1 sensor booster.
Rigsta Gallente Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.08.05 11:58:00 - [8] Any ship fitting EW is giving up valuable mid slots, CPU and significant cap usage, especially for T2 dampeners. The only complaint I have about sensor dampeners atm is their effectiveness versus carriers - but I view that more as a problem with carriers than with dampeners as a whole. Originally by: Jim McGregor I felt the disturbance... it was like a million voices suddenly stopped whining for a second. Unfortunantly it then continued.
Azirapheal Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.05 17:42:00 - [9] (expletive alluding to the doggish qualities of the OP's mother and certain sexual acts) OFF no i dont use sensor damps myself BUT IM ***** SICK OF THE *** NERF BRIGADE. you mission*s get it all your own *** way dont you? nerf nos, wtz, nanonerf etc etc etc you always tell us pirates to adapt, WE DO NOW MOTHER*** ADAPT YOURSELF. Originally by:** CCP Wrangler you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.
Gorek Loc Fine Art Manufactury	Posted - 2007.08.05 17:46:00 - [10] Originally by: DMF KingBob ... using an sensor booster in my pvp ship but this is not god enough against 2 noobs with Remote Sensor Damper they nosed my out an let her drones do the job You lost ? Who's the noob then? alright, to the point: Sensor Dampeners are a weapon, just like Booster, turrets and launchers. ECM is a weapon too. If they can't lock you, they can't dampen you. It's simply a matter of having a counter-attack.
Chi Quan Jade Phoenix Deutschland Event-Horizon	Posted - 2007.08.05 18:07:00 - [11] you were outnumbered 2:1 and lost? how do you know the otheres were noobs? -- Tempus fugit --
Andreya	Posted - 2007.08.05 18:09:00 - [12] i hate dealing with damps as well, but, my only complaint is, that damps use less cpu and cap than tracking disrupters (i think, maybe not both tho) ... and i think they had better range as well... sue me if im wrong. but anywho, i think we can agree that damps in general are more usefull and should maybe use more cpu/cap than the TDs
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition New Eve Order	Posted - 2007.08.05 20:10:00 - [13] sensor damp nerf is coming, trust me. just like using cap boosters (or your own NOS).. was the solution for the NOS.. it was too powerful. lets make the game a grungy replica of hello kitty online The Beginning <-- crap quality, need to redo, sorry :(
aaron 619 Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.05 22:04:00 - [14] OMG, I am so FUKCING tried of these noobs wining about nerff this and overpowered that. You know what, if he did it to you, you can do the same thing back and thats what makes it a fare fight. Now if you choose not to do the same to him. then thats your own dam fault and makes you a bad PVPER. So stop crying and drop you stuff off in my hanger in jita when you quit! Sell your minerals on the market! Don't settle for what others WANT to pay you! Miners are the ones that control Sale price!
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2007.08.06 01:52:00 - [15] to jamm good with ECM is an jamm ship (some caldarie) with distortion amplifier needed but to jamm effectiv with RSDs it needs no amplifier or bonus-ship to jamm effectiv an its works all the time you can fitt it on an curse and it works great thats the simple difference
BlackHorizon Caldari Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.08.06 05:47:00 - [16]
Luigi Thirty Caldari 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2007.08.06 05:58:00 - [17] Originally by: Azirapheal (expletive alluding to the doggish qualities of the OP's mother and certain sexual acts) OFF no i dont use sensor damps myself BUT IM ***** SICK OF THE *** NERF BRIGADE. you mission*s get it all your own *** way dont you? nerf nos, wtz, nanonerf etc etc etc you always tell us pirates to adapt, WE DO NOW MOTHER***** ADAPT YOURSELF. You seem angry ---- DOMINIX IS INVINCIBLE:(((( Miner Luigi I am! I am a lucky miner! Let me tell you why!
MasterDecoy Gallente The Grifters	Posted - 2007.08.06 06:23:00 - [18] Edited by: MasterDecoy on 06/08/2007 06:26:39 nos has been nerfed, now onto the next 'whine du jour'. shut the ** up you whiny little * and play the game. Quote: if you like remote sensor damper fitted on your ships please dont post an reply nobody need this spam spam? like the threads after threads of you noobs crying for nerfing of this/that/the other thing? that kind of spam? the only trend going on atm is the constant carebear cries of 'nerf this pls kthx'. stay off the ***** boards nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf everybody! edit bitter much? http://dkod.kukaservers.com/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7618 Originally by: Gan Dalf What's going on? Why is TQ down? Who is "GMT"? What's 'Reality', will it hurt?
Bongpipe Bum	Posted - 2007.08.06 08:14:00 - [19] Originally by: DMF KingBob in last time i see in pvp that everybody is using remote sensor damper to get out of range and need no tank and making his pvp easy to win i using an sensor booster in my pvp ship but this is not god enough against 2 noobs with Remote Sensor Damper they nosed my out an let her drones do the job @at devs/cpp please stop this if you like remote sensor damper fitted on your ships please dont post an reply nobody need this spam thx Read: OH NOES I CAN LOSE. FIX IT CCP. such a whiny thread.
Dr Paithos Minmatar Republic Deep Space Institute	Posted - 2007.08.06 11:13:00 - [20] Originally by: DMF KingBob in last time i see in pvp that everybody is using remote sensor damper to get out of range and need no tank and making his pvp easy to win i using an sensor booster in my pvp ship but this is not god enough against 2 noobs with Remote Sensor Damper they nosed my out an let her drones do the job @at devs/cpp please stop this if you like remote sensor damper fitted on your ships please dont post an reply nobody need this spam thx Is this thread anything to do with your faction fitted apoc dying to a curse and vagabond? You do realise you could have escaped by having light drones aggroing the curse, or by mwding to the gate and jumping through, right? You wouldn't have been webbed. If you didn't have a cap booster or mwd fitted you were vulnerable to pretty much anything. An Eos with a couple tracking disrupters would have ate you for breakfast. Originally by: RedFall How dare you try to argue my point with your so called "evidence". I don't need any, I have truthiness on my side.
Azirapheal Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.06 11:15:00 - [21] yes im livid, checkout the "pvpers unite" thread in cnp eve is harsh. go the ** back to world of warcraft, we dont want you here. i dont even want your stuff. its that worthless Originally by:** CCP Wrangler you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.08.06 11:16:00 - [22] its not that sensor dampers are overpowered for what they are, its that: 1. the stacking vs. sensor boosters / remote sensor boosters is badly computed meaning that there is no effective counter (this why ppl are upset i think) 2. ecm sucks really, realllllly bad. DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine
MasterDecoy Gallente The Grifters	Posted - 2007.08.06 12:05:00 - [23] Edited by: MasterDecoy on 06/08/2007 12:05:21 Originally by: R3dSh1ft its not that sensor dampers are overpowered for what they are, its that: 1. the stacking vs. sensor boosters / remote sensor boosters is badly computed meaning that there is no effective counter (this why ppl are upset i think) 2. ecm sucks really, realllllly bad. there's plenty of counters available already. sensor booster is one that, granted, is not exactly the best, but it's a counter still. the RSD already have a stacking penalty. and last but not least, the best counter is to get closer to your target or the person dampening you. if anything, tracking disruptors and painters should be made better. the op starting yet another whine/nerf thread because he lost a badly faction fitted bs to a recon and a hac, is the epitome of lameness. Originally by: Gan Dalf What's going on? Why is TQ down? Who is "GMT"? What's 'Reality', will it hurt?
Kieran Jarnush	Posted - 2007.08.06 13:23:00 - [24] Originally by: Methem 2 ships fitted with RSD SHOULD be able to kill a BS with a 1 sensor booster. just curious, who the **** says that? it would be better to take sensor strength into computation, like done for ecm or have ship sized modules for frigs, cruiser and battleships, like nos. furthermore those are offensive modules (like ecm) and should therefor be highslot modules. tis all imo....
batmoth Amarr Empirius Enigmus Navy Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.06 13:29:00 - [25] Originally by: DMF KingBob to jamm good with ECM is an jamm ship (some caldarie) with distortion amplifier needed but to jamm effectiv with RSDs it needs no amplifier or bonus-ship to jamm effectiv an its works all the time you can fitt it on an curse and it works great thats the simple difference Yet you still can lock just have to get closer and takes a little longer. So get t the point of your whine
Pilk Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.06 14:51:00 - [26] Originally by: Kieran Jarnush Originally by: Methem 2 ships fitted with RSD SHOULD be able to kill a BS with a 1 sensor booster. just curious, who the ** says that? it would be better to take sensor strength into computation, like done for ecm or have ship sized modules for frigs, cruiser and battleships, like nos. furthermore those are offensive modules (like ecm) and should therefor be highslot modules. tis all imo.... PLEASE move ECM into high slots. That way my Scorpion can fit 2 sensor boosters, 6 jammers, three signal distortion amps, a damage control, and a six-slot shield tank. Hell, that might actually make me start flying the Scorpion again. I'm sure it wouldn't be the least bit overpowered. --P Kosh*: The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.*
doctorstupid2 Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.06 15:12:00 - [27] I used damps before they were cool. I rule. Steel Rat > if they only knew we make this **** up as we go
Methem The Hand of Mortis	Posted - 2007.08.06 22:59:00 - [28] Originally by: Kieran Jarnush Originally by: Methem 2 ships fitted with RSD SHOULD be able to kill a BS with a 1 sensor booster. just curious, who the **** says that? it would be better to take sensor strength into computation, like done for ecm or have ship sized modules for frigs, cruiser and battleships, like nos. furthermore those are offensive modules (like ecm) and should therefor be highslot modules. tis all imo.... 1 sensor booster vs 4 to 6 damps Tell me why you think 1 sensor booster shouldnt overcome this? Also, moving damps to high slots is an aweful idea.. ecm+damp on 1 ship anyone? meh dont know why i even replied, hope this thread dies along w/ the rest of these pointless RSD threads..
aldarrin	Posted - 2007.08.06 23:50:00 - [29] Would it make sense to factor in the sensor strength of the target and / or sensor damping ship? It does seem a little silly for a one size fits all module when all of most of the other modules are somewhat sized based. Not to get too far off of track, but wasn't there a plan to implement propulsion strength based webbers a while back?
Grismar Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2007.08.07 20:33:00 - [30] The fact that everyone using RSDs feels obligated to go on a crying spree does indicate that something is slightly unbalanced though. Fearing the nerfbat for your favourite toy? Don't get me wrong though, I love the RSD and use it a lot. I don't think it needs a nerf at all. And you're right. A BS with a single countermeasure -should- be killed by two ships focusing on that one weak point. But I rather think it is the other way around. ECM got too much of a nerf, leaving RSD as the obvious choice for EW. For the life of me, I can't see anyone picking ECM over RSD with the current stats, except if you have the one trained up and the other not at all. Problem is, I've no clue how to fix it, though I never really liked the randomness of it. Whenever an aspect of the game goes random, it takes away from the skill of playing it. You don't make the knight in chess land on a random square out of eight if you think it's too powerful either. Maybe something along the lines of "having to guess the enemy's sensor frequency" would be more balanced. Still sort of random on a 1 vs. 1 situation, but a team of EW specialists could cover a broad range of frequencies. Still, that doesn't really match the existing interface and might require nasty dialogs that get in the way... Like I said, no better solution off the top of my head, but I do agree with the OP that RSD are better than ECM right now, even though that's not really his point :) Greetings, Grismar. Your EVE IGB home: EVE Wiki, Explorer, Navigator
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2007.08.07 22:54:00 - [31] The counter to sensor damps doesn't provide enough boost to counter the dampener. a T1 damp(no skills) is 0.65x and a T1 sensor booster is 1.5x => 0.65 * 1.5 = 0.975. When you consider T2 stats it becomes even worse, because the T2 damp stats get reduced by 20%(0.65 * 0.8) and the sensor booster gains 20% on the bonus(0.5 * 1.2 = 0.6)(and not on the stat, which would make it 1.5 * 1.2 = 1.8). Which is advantageous for the dampeners, the actual increase should be 20% on the penalty not the stat( T2 damp should be -42% instead of -48%). Then there is still the addition of the Signal Suppression skill which didn't exist ingame when the stats of the dampeners were first established. Ending in the obvious advantage for anyone using dampeners against anyone, even the ones using sensor boosters( a fully skilled damp will still drastically overpower a sensor booster, 0.52(-48%) * 0.75 = 0.39(-61%) => 1.6 * 0.39 = 0.624(-37.6%), NOTE this is not even using a Celestis(or equiv.)). In short, I do think the sensor dampeners need to be rebalanced. Currently 1 sensor booster won't counter 1 sensor dampener and it only gets worse with T2/named. On top of that there is the skill introduced with the ECM overhaul which skews the results even more in favor of dampeners. In my opinion 1 sensor booster(of same quality) should counter 1 sensor dampener(of equal quality). I also think the Signal Suppression skill should be considered in the rebalance effort. I would suggest for T1 damp an effect of -20% scan res/targeting range, while for T2 damps an effect of -25%(and named modules spread equally between the 2 of course). With Signal Suppression IV you would regain the effect of before(without skill) with lvl 5 still available for specialising. A secondary thing I would consider is increasing the dampener boat's bonus to 7.5% per level, creating a niche for the ships specifically designed for dampening targets. This results in practically no change(about 2% less then before)for dampener boats but a nerf for any ship without the dampener bonus. Crystal-Slave, that way?
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.07 23:19:00 - [32] Originally by: Methem 2 ships fitted with RSD SHOULD be able to kill a BS with a 1 sensor booster. In such a complex game ship is such a broad definition. You need 3 RSD's II to take down a BS from normal range to under 20km. 2 will not do it, and you will get killed most likely - assuming Recon ship here. This general "3 RSD" rule can be royally screwed if the BS has some skills for higher targeting range, or just one sensor booster. If it's a gallente recon though, 3 will damp even a BS with 1 SB II, but that is because the ship has bonuses to the damn thing. Caldari are the plague of EVE, little whiners that must be cleansed from TQ.
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition New Eve Order	Posted - 2007.08.07 23:20:00 - [33] so when are we going to nerf stasis webs, warp disruptors, and weapon systems The Beginning <-- crap quality, need to redo, sorry :(
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.07 23:35:00 - [34] While you are right in the initial part - the calculation part, your suggestions for -20% for t1 rsd and -25% for t2 rsd is a bit harsh. Signal Supression is a skill that requires Electronics 5 and Sensor Linking 4 - a rank 3 btw. Sensor Boosters II need just Electronics 2 and Long Range Targeting 4 - rank 2, which most ppl train anyway. Caldari are the plague of EVE, little whiners that must be cleansed from TQ.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.07 23:37:00 - [35] Originally by: Feng Schui so when are we going to nerf stasis webs, warp disruptors, and weapon systems Well, they already nerfed weapon systems when they did the whole HP buff. And they are testing the "mass addition module" on SISI who's effect is not that good for speed ships. Caldari are the plague of EVE, little whiners that must be cleansed from TQ.
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2007.08.08 01:31:00 - [36] Originally by: Setana Manoro While you are right in the initial part - the calculation part, your suggestions for -20% for t1 rsd and -25% for t2 rsd is a bit harsh. Signal Supression is a skill that requires Electronics 5 and Sensor Linking 4 - a rank 3 btw. Sensor Boosters II need just Electronics 2 and Long Range Targeting 4 - rank 2, which most ppl train anyway. In my opinion, if you want to use EW with good effect you need to invest training time in it and the values I picked weren't arbitrary, I picked those values by looking at sensor boosters vs. sensor dampeners and making it so at lvl 4 of the Signal Suppression skill 1 sensor booster gets countered by 1 sensor dampener when used by a ship without a damper bonus. It is also possible to work with slightly different values and base it from lvl 3 Signal Suppression, which would end up with approximately -23% for the T1 and -28% for T2. That means that with lvl 3 Signal Suppression a T1 would be -34.55%(-38.4% lvl 4 and -42.25% lvl 5), leaving room for further specialisation but returning to levels from before the introduction of the new EW skills. Also, because I would also bump up the sensor damping bonus of sensor dampening boats(like the Celestis, Maulus...) to 7.5% from 5% nothing changes for them with my initially suggested values, except for the named and T2 damps which have the wrong bonus progression applied imo. A Celestis with a T1 damp would be equally effective after this change as it was before, only ships without the dampener bonus will lose on effectiveness which is intended. The T2 damper (and named) nerf is also intended, it's either a nerf to these or boosting named and T2 sensor boosters to counter them, I prefer the nerf. Boosting the T2 sensor boosters to counter a T2 damp, in its current state, would require the T2 sensor booster to provide a 87.5% bonus to targeting range and sig resolution(again, before even contemplating the signal suppression skill). Doing these changes would make it possible to counter damps nearly 100% by fitting an equal amount of sensor boosters as the attacker has damps active on you. I consider that a nice trade-off tbh, sacrificing mids to counter mids on a 1-on-1 basis(when damps are being used by a non-damp EW ship). The current implementation is nothing like this. 1 T2 sensor damp with max skills will still reduce a target's targeting range and speed with 37.6%(-53.2% from a Celestis or equiv.) even if the target has 1 T2 sensor booster. My suggestion would make that -10%(and -43.75% from Celestis). Do you still believe my suggestions are overly harsh? My thoughts on Damps.
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.08.08 05:23:00 - [37] When are people going to wake up? These nerf threads always gain popularity after something else has just been nerfed. It's a vicious circle that the nerf whiners themselves create. I personally don't remember damps being a huge issue in the forums before the ECM nerf. There was a brief surge of nerf whines about damps immediately after the ECM nerf, which soon died down, only to come back again in full force recently after the NOS nerf and dev's willingness to screw things up again was confirmed. Did damps suddenly become 'over-powered'? Of course not, they became relatively more powerful than the last nerfed module, and thus more popular. For every module the whiners successfully lobby to get nerfed, there will be another module targeted by them for nerfing. This ridiculous neverending and unexplained 'de-evolution' of technology in the Eve universe which rewards whining and unwillingness to help yourself, and potentially wastes months of training time and planning by many players, is short-sighted. How about a solution which encourages skill training for whiners and represents advancements in technology for a change? Some nerfs are probably valid, but its not like ECM, NOS and Damps are or were being used in ways that were unforseen by the developers. They did their job as intended. Threads like this, the people who write them, and the developers who act on them and mess things up sh*t me to tears. I will damn well respond to stupid threads like this, because I have a right to express my opinion in support of my own vested interests as much as anyone else and because it was threads like this that created the current issue in the first place. To the Op: Your post is the classic nerf whine. You got owned 2-1 by people using sensor damps, NOS and drones. Your take on things: Your sensor booster should have negated the half dozen damps they had on you to the point where you should have won the engagement, they were noobs, damps are too powerful and therefore you were beaten unfairly. Solution: This thread. Try to understand that EW has a purpose. The purpose of Sensor damps is to reduce a) targeting range and b) scan resolution of the target. If the damps fail to reduce targeting range below the engagement range the first effect of damps is utterly ineffective. If the target has a sensor booster, then all other things being equal, the scan resolution penalty is also completely ineffective because the targeted ship will have an initial scan resolution advantage. From a personal perspective that I'm sure other pilots in the same boat can identify with, but few others will give a rats arse about, I've spent most of this year and a lot of isk training up Amarr recon, sensor damp skills, drone skills and buying the ships and mods specifically so that I could be effective in PvP in a certain role. Now I find that most of that time has been wasted in a sudden inexplicable de-evolution of technology in Eve, and possibly soon to get a whole lot worse because people like you had a single bad experience and lost a ship. It'll be interesting to see what the next module to be targeted by the nerfers will be.
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2007.08.08 10:43:00 - [38] Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 08/08/2007 10:43:35 Originally by: Phaedruss When are people going to wake up? These nerf threads always gain popularity after something else has just been nerfed. It's a vicious circle that the nerf whiners themselves create. Well that's true of course, people will allways whine, it's our nature(you're whining about the whiners ). Originally by: Phaedruss I personally don't remember damps being a huge issue in the forums before the ECM nerf. There was a brief surge of nerf whines about damps immediately after the ECM nerf, which soon died down, only to come back again in full force recently after the NOS nerf and dev's willingness to screw things up again was confirmed. Did damps suddenly become 'over-powered'? Of course not, they became relatively more powerful than the last nerfed module, and thus more popular. Doesn't "relatively more powerfull" essentially mean the same thing as unbalanced? Shouldn't the goal of the Devs to have all mods relatively equally powerfull? And if one mod stands out, isn't it better to nerf that one mod rather then boost all the others? Originally by: Phaedruss For every module the whiners successfully lobby to get nerfed, there will be another module targeted by them for nerfing. This ridiculous neverending and unexplained 'de-evolution' of technology in the Eve universe which rewards whining and unwillingness to help yourself, and potentially wastes months of training time and planning by many players, is short-sighted. How about a solution which encourages skill training for whiners and represents advancements in technology for a change? Some nerfs are probably valid, but its not like ECM, NOS and Damps are or were being used in ways that were unforseen by the developers. They did their job as intended. ECM, nos and damps are/were being used in ways that were unforeseen, ECM was being used on nosdomi to keep target jammed practically permanently, same with damps now, also in combination with nos. Nos has a dual effect, kills the targets cap and feeds your own, which is pretty powerfull. ECM and Damps are intended to be used by ships designed for them, which generally are weaker then their counterparts, but have very powerfull EW. Originally by: Phaedruss Threads like this, the people who write them, and the developers who act on them and mess things up sht me to tears. I will damn well respond to stupid threads like this, because I have a right to express my opinion in support of my own vested interests as much as anyone else and because it was threads like this that created the current issue in the first place. well the OP might be a bit ahem* short-sighted but I try not to be . It was the introduction of the new EW skills that caused the dampener issue imo, indirectly related to the ECM nerf. --continued-- My thoughts on Damps.
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2007.08.08 10:58:00 - [39] Originally by: Phaedruss To the Op: Your post is the classic nerf whine. You got owned 2-1 by people using sensor damps, NOS and drones. Your take on things: Your sensor booster should have negated the half dozen damps they had on you to the point where you should have won the engagement, they were noobs, damps are too powerful and therefore you were beaten unfairly. Solution: This thread. Agreed, his stance is unreasonable. Originally by: Phaedruss Try to understand that EW has a purpose. The purpose of Sensor damps is to reduce a) targeting range and b) scan resolution of the target. If the damps fail to reduce targeting range below the engagement range the first effect of damps is utterly ineffective. If the target has a sensor booster, then all other things being equal, the scan resolution penalty is also completely ineffective because the targeted ship will have an initial scan resolution advantage. Pretty much, but atm 1 sensor booster doesn't counter 1 sensor dampener, not even a T1 damp is countered by a T2 sensor booster if the attacker has even a minimally acceptable level in Signal Suppression skill(lvl 2 or higher). That is the problem imo, 1 damp should be countered by 1 sensor booster of equal quality if the attacker is not using a ship designed for damps. Originally by: Phaedruss From a personal perspective that I'm sure other pilots in the same boat can identify with, but few others will give a rats arse about, I've spent most of this year and a lot of isk training up Amarr recon, sensor damp skills, drone skills and buying the ships and mods specifically so that I could be effective in PvP in a certain role. Now I find that most of that time has been wasted in a sudden inexplicable de-evolution of technology in Eve, and possibly soon to get a whole lot worse because people like you had a single bad experience and lost a ship. It'll be interesting to see what the next module to be targeted by the nerfers will be. a question then, did you train Amarr recon, those damp skills because you knew nothing else would come close in effectiveness? or because you wanted to fly them for fun? Personally I'll be wanting to nerf the target painters to oblivion so the minnies can have something better instead . My thoughts on Damps.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.08.08 10:59:00 - [40] Originally by: DMF KingBob in last time i see in pvp that everybody is using remote sensor damper to get out of range and need no tank and making his pvp easy to win i using an sensor booster in my pvp ship but this is not god enough against 2 noobs with Remote Sensor Damper they nosed my out an let her drones do the job @at devs/cpp please stop this if you like remote sensor damper fitted on your ships please dont post an reply nobody need this spam thx OMG I GOT KILLED BY TURRETS PLEASE DEVS NERF TURRETS SO I DON'T GET KILLED BY NOOBS FITTING TURRETS ANYMORE. /sarcasm off --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Edward Slain Hell's Horsemen	Posted - 2007.08.08 11:17:00 - [41] 2 noobs... A Recon and a HAC... They(properly fitted) should be able to take out a BS, especially one piloted by a kid who probably sat there crying as he was shot at. @ devs/ccp, yes stop this, I dont want to lose another ship, EVER!!!
Devian 666 Axe Gang	Posted - 2007.08.08 11:51:00 - [42] Edited by: Devian 666 on 08/08/2007 11:52:06 I agree ECM was over nerfed. RSD work fine. If you don't know how to counter them right-click and select show info on an RSD. In a thread in C&P one person has claimed that CCP don't nerf just because of whining. I dispute that. There are adequate counters to RSD. There are counters to ECM. The pilots using RSD in ships without an RSD bonus have to fly their ships a particular way to avoid being locked or to gank as much as possible before the lock works. Eve is a sophisticated game of paper/scissors/rock and RSD work well in one situation but perform poorly in others. ECM is a way of avoiding locks however if you play smart by actually learning the game mechanics then you can find the scissors for the paper which has wrapped around your useless rock. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Frances Ducoir VEB Kombinat Robotron	Posted - 2007.08.08 12:16:00 - [43] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 08/08/2007 12:17:04 Originally by: DMF KingBob in last time i see in pvp that everybody is using remote sensor damper to get out of range and need no tank and making his pvp easy to win i using an sensor booster in my pvp ship but this is not god enough against 2 noobs with Remote Sensor Damper they nosed my out an let her drones do the job @at devs/cpp please stop this if you like remote sensor damper fitted on your ships please dont post an reply nobody need this spam thx rsd are fine, they are stacking nerfed, they cant be overloaded, t2 damps need a lot cpu and the best named t1 damps are really expensive (and cant be insured). so my advice for you: 1. learn to whine in appropriate english, yours is awful 2. get a friend... 2 guys with RSD SHOULD be able to beat you 3. gtfo of this forum and stop whining. use the testserver and fly a gallente recon with RSD... see how fragile they are. there are enough counters. just because you are too lazy it doesn't mean RSD are overpowered. last but not least: Originally by: DMF KingBob if you like remote sensor damper fitted on your ships please dont post an reply nobody need this spam thx mimimimimi... whaaawhaaawhaaaa...
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2007.08.08 15:43:00 - [44] lol 5% on topic 95%spam/nooblike -.- the fact is ecm works nor every time and when i fitt 4 on my ship(with out bonus and amplifier) it makes me not untouchable against an BS RSD works every time and when i fitt 4 on my ship (with out bonus) it makes me UNTOUCHABLE and this is the problem it is easy to see but for noobs hard to accept that is the reason for an RSD-Nerf and please stop your whining-spam if you like to whine(or what ever) make your own whine-thread. thx
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.08 16:06:00 - [45] The only thing I'd change with RSD is the huge falloff. As it is, it's more effective than ECM at long range because of the 42 km optimal (which is fine) and 84 km falloff with skills at IV. Cut the falloff down to 25 km or so with max skills - this leaves damps with the advantage at mid range, but means that ECM is the only option for ranges above 100 km. As it is, a Scorp with a full rack of dampers is more effective at suppressing long-range fire than it would be with ECM. That doesn't seem right...
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.08.08 16:19:00 - [46] Sensor Dampners have a stacking penalty. Over 4 damps will do anymore to a ship (the 4th doing very little effect, the 3rd not much better either). In solo situation, damps are often "the win", but not in larger gangs, dampener ships have little tank and die very quickly.. RSD were nerfed 2years+ ago, the T1 damps used to give 50% bonus. T2 were released sometime later.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Defcon One	Posted - 2007.08.08 16:53:00 - [47] RSD is good. ECM is good. Tracking distuptors are half good. Target painters are less than half good. Maybe here is the imbalance? I like to use a celestis with 4 damps (and it could be more on a lachesis), it gives targeting range/12 as a result (maybe more, I upgraded cruiser skill). By the way, the celestis can't do anything else, it takes much cap and there are few remaining slots. What I like even more is flying in a gang and having a mate in blackbird. Why? becuase the combination damp + ECM usually lets several ennemy lock in one minute and loose their lock every minute... This is no locking at all! If ECM + RSD fails, then a guy in arbitrator will finish disabling the offensive capabilities of the hard hitting BS against a pack of cruisers... The bad part is that all EW isn't as good. RSD II gets -48% (before skills), it's huge, it affects eveyone. TD II gets -46% (before skills), it's a bit lower, but it does not affect as much of the ship. It affects only half of the weaponry and is useless against other EW... Comparing to ECM is not easy... Also, we need to take in account the related ships, their number of medslots. The arbitrator has the least medslots... So, you get a partial efficiency that will alwys be lower than the full efficiency of the generalist anti-locking equipement that are the ECM and RSD. Looking at recon ships, caldari have the 'all bonus to ECM' theory, while the others have split bonuses with other EW types. In my experience, the ECM from a recon ship will jam people quite effectively, just as RSD from recon ship will make you lock at very very short range. I'm not sure if people use much TD on the amarr RS and of the TP are used on the minmatar RS. Something is unbalanced between EW types. Lower base stat on RSD would make them less dangerous, but still deadly on a gallente RS. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! The Vexor Navy Issue is much more fun than the Myrmidon !
Frances Ducoir VEB Kombinat Robotron	Posted - 2007.08.08 19:40:00 - [48] Originally by: DMF KingBob lol 5% on topic 95%spam/nooblike -.- the fact is ecm works nor every time and when i fitt 4 on my ship(with out bonus and amplifier) it makes me not untouchable against an BS RSD works every time and when i fitt 4 on my ship (with out bonus) it makes me UNTOUCHABLE and this is the problem it is easy to see but for noobs hard to accept that is the reason for an RSD-Nerf and please stop your whining-spam if you like to whine(or what ever) make your own whine-thread. thx omg you are the only noob here... and a pathetic one! You compare RSD and ECM... but you fail to realize that RSD has some disadvantages in comparision to ECM although RSD are more effective on the first view. ECM = no lock if it hits you... no matter what RSD = no lock if you dont get close enough... so there is a simple solution: get closer to your enemy you can't? than you could also blame it on the speed of your ship, the nos of the enemies and a lot of other factors but you are whining about RSD because you have no clue at all. here is a simple guide for you: what to do against RSD/nos/droneboats 1. cap booster 2. smartbomb 3. FoF 3. use nos/drones/rsd yourself ^^ 4. get some friends 5. web drones and shoot them just because you are too stupid or lazy (or both) to search for a counter, doesn't mean that RSD are overpowered. btw: 95% of your posts are spam/nooblike (good way to make new friends btw) btw2: your posts make me want to kill you with loads of RSD/drones/nos.
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2007.08.08 20:02:00 - [49] Originally by: DMF KingBob lol 5% on topic 95%spam/nooblike -.- the fact is ecm works nor every time and when i fitt 4 on my ship(with out bonus and amplifier) it makes me not untouchable against an BS RSD works every time and when i fitt 4 on my ship (with out bonus) it makes me UNTOUCHABLE and this is the problem it is easy to see but for noobs hard to accept that is the reason for an RSD-Nerf and please stop your whining-spam if you like to whine(or what ever) make your own whine-thread. thx Tbh, with your attitude I would rather agree with the others then with you . My thoughts on Damps.
Atasy Huopian	Posted - 2007.08.08 20:55:00 - [50] Originally by: Kieran Jarnush Originally by: Methem 2 ships fitted with RSD SHOULD be able to kill a BS with a 1 sensor booster. just curious, who the **** says that? it would be better to take sensor strength into computation, like done for ecm or have ship sized modules for frigs, cruiser and battleships, like nos. furthermore those are offensive modules (like ecm) and should therefor be highslot modules. tis all imo.... It is done by percentile. Battleships have larger targeting ranges so more is taken away but they also in turn have more of a range left after words. No adjustment to the mechancis of the RSD needs to be done IMO. High slots? Not sure why they would be in high slots when all other ew modules are in mids.
Serj Darek Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2007.08.09 06:53:00 - [51] Originally by: DMF KingBob lol 5% on topic 95%spam/nooblike -.- the fact is ecm works nor every time and when i fitt 4 on my ship(with out bonus and amplifier) it makes me not untouchable against an BS RSD works every time and when i fitt 4 on my ship (with out bonus) it makes me UNTOUCHABLE and this is the problem it is easy to see but for noobs hard to accept that is the reason for an RSD-Nerf and please stop your whining-spam if you like to whine(or what ever) make your own whine-thread. thx 100% of your whine seems to be related to this: DMF loss to noobs. So how do you define these players as noobs when they fly recons and hacs? First!
Gaia Thorn Infestation.	Posted - 2007.08.09 07:11:00 - [52] Just gotta ask, whats wrong with you? RSD is not overpowered it's fitted 90% of the time on paper thin ships that cant take much damage. If you want to nerf something, nerf the nano raven with 3 damps that will run you over like nothing you have ever seen. People need to take a step back cause we are rapidly reaching the point when this game goes from sandbox to lego, everything will be a cookie cutter setups that deal equal amounts of damage and in the end only makes people wanna blob more.
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2007.08.09 07:39:00 - [53] Edited by: DMF KingBob on 09/08/2007 07:39:05 ECM vs RSD should be balanced but it isnt or why does the pilots use an RSD instead an ECM or TD it easy to see that RSDs work much better then an ECM or TD if you think an ECM is blanced to an RSD then replace all your RSD with ECM or is this not easy enough ? here are the facts again ECM works not every time and when its works the enmey cant not lock the target this is 1 effect for some time(1 point for ECM) RSD works every time (1 point for RSD)and the first effect is it decrease your lock range (2. point for RSD)and the next effect is it decrease your lock speed(3.point) that cant be to hard to understand ECM is not a untouchable system but RSD makes sometimes untouchable and this is a balancing problem http://cisco211.de/eve/kms/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=132 and this is not the first contact with the problem and maybe not the last -.-
Murder Love	Posted - 2007.08.09 07:48:00 - [54] Originally by: DMF KingBob Edited by: DMF KingBob on 09/08/2007 07:39:05 ECM vs RSD should be balanced but it isnt or why does the pilots use an RSD instead an ECM or TD it easy to see that RSDs work much better then an ECM or TD if you think an ECM is blanced to an RSD then replace all your RSD with ECM or is this not easy enough ? here are the facts again ECM works not every time and when its works the enmey cant not lock the target this is 1 effect for some time(1 point for ECM) RSD works every time (1 point for RSD)and the first effect is it decrease your lock range (2. point for RSD)and the next effect is it decrease your lock speed(3.point) that cant be to hard to understand ECM is not a untouchable system but RSD makes sometimes untouchable and this is a balancing problem http://cisco211.de/eve/kms/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=132 and this is not the first contact with the problem and maybe not the last -.- Ecm did get nerfed, but it.. works better on multiple target works on close range targets has an ecm dedicated bs works decent with racials there are a lot more points, but your arguments are biased
Frances Ducoir Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.09 07:54:00 - [55] your apoc was killed by a curse + vagabond. what do you exspect? even without damps they would have probably killed you. you would have had no chance if they were nano fitted... also saw that the main damage dealer was the curse with its drones. just fit a smartbomb ffs and get support. you are not supposed to beat a vaga + curse in one bs.
Gaia Thorn Infestation.	Posted - 2007.08.09 08:33:00 - [56] Ecm is not untouchable but RSD is ??? i would probably turn that statement around. RSD is touchable but ecm isnt. i can atleast defend myself when being attacked by RSD whislt if i get hit by ecm im flippin toast.
hUssmann Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.08.09 11:10:00 - [57] Originally by: Serj Darek 100% of your whine seems to be related to this: DMF loss to noobs. So how do you define these players as noobs when they fly recons and hacs? Lol. Ginger Magician > You are merely an effective ganker of haulers who runs at the first sign of combat.
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.10 06:49:00 - [58] Sensor boosters are not a true counter to RSD. A true counter would only be usefull when you are the target of an RSD attack. ( Like ECCM is vs ECM ). Sensor boosters provide a highly usefull bonus if yer not being RSD'd thus the oppertunity cost of fitting one is much lower than fitting ECCM. This is why they cant be as powerfull as ECCM.
Lady Caeser Open Fist of Castallus	Posted - 2007.08.10 08:08:00 - [59] RSDs need to have stacking penalty applied, would solve all these whines -------------------------------------- What are you looking at? --------------------------------------
Kaben	Posted - 2007.08.10 08:21:00 - [60] Originally by: Lady Caeser RSDs need to have stacking penalty applied, would solve all these whines Hmm, I was under the assumption that if you used more then one against the same target they were stack nerfed.
WT Snacks	Posted - 2007.08.10 16:31:00 - [61] I'm going to assume that the OP is a troll of epic proportions. RSDs are the only piece of ewar left untouched, as ECM was nerfed into oblivion and TP/TD are equally useless. Stop nerfing, start buffing.
Major Stallion Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.10 16:49:00 - [62] Originally by: WT Snacks RSDs are the only piece of ewar left untouched duh, cant you see why he wants it nerfed?! its the only thing that hasnt been nerfed yet. ________________________________ High Sec PvP
Lord DarkStar Gallente Mobile Alcohol Processing Units United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.10 18:12:00 - [63] Originally by: Kaben Originally by: Lady Caeser RSDs need to have stacking penalty applied, would solve all these whines Hmm, I was under the assumption that if you used more then one against the same target they were stack nerfed. They are - I fly an Arazu and trust me they are stacking nerfed. They are good but they are not an i-win button,i lost an arazu to 2 bc because they got too close (died in under 10 seconds to their guns the ships themselves are paper),cant damp both like you could with ecm,theres a bit more to the story on how they got to close but the point is they did. At 30km Arazu itself works fine,anything closer in lock range the ship is dead,as for other ships using them,they dont get the ship bonus,and if you cant get close enough to counter 1 or 2 damps then thats your falt,1 or 2 damps doesnt do much to a BS lock range,expecially when combat normally happens at close range (fleet battles and large gang pvp damps are too useful) so stop whining and learn to fight. We of the Unicorn clan are the best horsemen in the land,our horses are our lives and brothers,we fight as one,we live as one,we die as one.
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2007.08.10 19:16:00 - [64] it is ok to use RSD on an bonus ship but what i mean is using an RSD on an non-bonus ship like a merlin or an vagabond or an curse or what ever and make pvps to easy to win when the victim is non-stop-jammed (range/lockspeed)by an ship with much med slots and no bonuses
Kieran Jarnush	Posted - 2007.08.16 11:35:00 - [65] i come to think that all ecm and/or offensive modules (nos,ecm,bursts,damps,tracking disrupts,webs & scrams) should be moved to the utility highslots and promote a number of fixed utility highslots per ship where only ecm modules can be mounted to. like 3 utility slots for curse/pilgrim to fit its nos, 4 on a scorp to fit ecm, 3-4 on an arazu/lachesis to fit damps... you get the deal it would be much cleaner and dicate how many ecm modules can be fitted onto a ship as well as designing ships that are specially made to fit them. woulda be a large redesign tho...
aldarrin	Posted - 2007.08.16 14:10:00 - [66] so you are suggesting the old e-war hard point argument? -- Flame on.
Kieran Jarnush	Posted - 2007.08.16 16:49:00 - [67] yeah looks like i'm doin this (bah i'm not original!). woulda be better than having a nerf here and nerf there every so often.
Tsin'Valha	Posted - 2007.08.17 01:48:00 - [68] Bah, RSD are the only option... sure, but they are now used in the same way that the multispec II's were used and abused by damn near everyone capable of using ECM multispecs. Before ECM nerf, 20 ships, 20 ECM Multispec II's fitted if able. Post nerf, 20 ships, 20+ remote dampers. So RSD's are balanced? Not by a long shot. In fleet battles involving carrier support the first thing you hear is "Damp the Carriers" and then primaries are called. Thank all the idiots loading as many damps as possible to their ships for people getting sick of the Damp being the new uber-ewar mod. Yes, IMHO CCP went crazy with the nerfbat on ECM, but should have had the foresight to realize that RSD's would be abused in the same way.
velocity7	Posted - 2007.08.17 15:23:00 - [69] Edited by: velocity7 on 17/08/2007 15:27:00 I agree; ECMs should be on the same level as RSDs. If RSDs can do it, then ECMs should too. Of course, they have their advantages and disadvantages; ECMs would have their percentage chance of not working, and RSDs would not work if people were too close. This will need tweaking, but there should be a good balance between using one or the other, as some Force Recon ships have bonuses for ECMs as opposed to RSDs. I should also point out... if you're getting jammed, use FoFs. :)
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2007.08.17 16:20:00 - [70] Edited by: DMF KingBob on 17/08/2007 16:19:46 the second effect of the RSD (lockspeed) works by every distance
Hatch	Posted - 2007.08.18 07:38:00 - [71] you got pwned by two newbs, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, GET OVER IT OR GO BACK TO WOW
Kieran Jarnush	Posted - 2007.08.18 09:24:00 - [72] Originally by: Hatch you got pwned by two newbs, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, GET OVER IT OR GO BACK TO WOW your hair looks ****e AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH. seriously this added as much to the thread as your comment...
Lugburz	Posted - 2007.08.18 12:52:00 - [73] Originally by: Azirapheal (expletive alluding to the doggish qualities of the OP's mother and certain sexual acts) OFF no i dont use sensor damps myself BUT IM ***** SICK OF THE *** NERF BRIGADE. you mission*s get it all your own *** way dont you? nerf nos, wtz, nanonerf etc etc etc you always tell us pirates to adapt, WE DO NOW MOTHER***** ADAPT YOURSELF. Im a mission runner Never asked for a nerf for anything, tbh i dont know why the idiot at the top wasnt using dampeners himself? maybe hes allergic to anything that does something other than increase your shields/armor/hull.... i bet he's one of the idiots who messed up NOS, bc's, ecm's etc... i havent been here long... Un nerf the training deadspaces!!!
Lugburz	Posted - 2007.08.18 13:06:00 - [74] Originally by: DMF KingBob Edited by: DMF KingBob on 09/08/2007 07:39:05 ECM vs RSD should be balanced but it isnt or why does the pilots use an RSD instead an ECM or TD it easy to see that RSDs work much better then an ECM or TD if you think an ECM is blanced to an RSD then replace all your RSD with ECM or is this not easy enough ? here are the facts again ECM works not every time and when its works the enmey cant not lock the target this is 1 effect for some time(1 point for ECM) RSD works every time (1 point for RSD)and the first effect is it decrease your lock range (2. point for RSD)and the next effect is it decrease your lock speed(3.point) that cant be to hard to understand ECM is not a untouchable system but RSD makes sometimes untouchable and this is a balancing problem http://cisco211.de/eve/kms/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=132 and this is not the first contact with the problem and maybe not the last -.- Dude, ecm is only crapper than damps because unlike damps ecm has already been nerfed! are you a bit slow? do you need help reading this? would you like a dime bar??
Dana Serenity	Posted - 2007.08.18 13:22:00 - [75] "IF YOU NERF EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING WILL HAVE TO BE RENERFED!" Now I understand that inline with keeping the game balanced, small nerfs and boosts are required but there is absolutely no point in nerfing something that has multiple counters against it. RSD's have loads of counters so there is no point to nerfing them. 1) Long range I have a Rokh that has 200+km targeting range, I have yet to see a sensor dampener able to dampen me from that range 2) Close range I also have a blasterthron, the turrents only have a 4km range and it has a 99km targeting range, you in your RSD setup is very unlikely to dampen my targeting range to lower than this. As long as I can tank you for the time it takes to target and I'm in range, I'm gonna deal you so much DPS you will pop 3) erm.. RSDS You've dampened me, great, if I dampen you back, the playing field is even 4) FOF missiles Yes I hate FOF missiles too but Sensor dampening is an act of aggression, fof missiles will go for a target who is agressing... plain an simple 5) ECM If a target is jammed, they cant dampen ya! And well the list goes on.. put simply there is no point in nerfing RSD's when there are multiple counters. And lets face it, they nerf this, every forum whiner will just whine about something else. The first person that claims that ECM's need nerfing cause what is the point of Pvp if you cant even target them. I will personally fly to my locater agent, hunt you down and repeatedly pod you until I get banned for grief tactics Have a nice day
Lugburz	Posted - 2007.08.18 14:09:00 - [76] Originally by: Dana Serenity If your a solder fighting a war in real life, just because you have been in the army for 20 years does not mean that an enemy solder who has only been serving for 1 month can't kill you. Have a nice day If you had served for twenty years believing you cant be killed i'd be amazed you were still alive :) I am invincible, my body is not....

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