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Belce Caldari ADAMA Corps Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.21 03:34:00 - [31] Maybe make webs work better on ships with larger signatures. Light scout drone is judged as one and as your size increases the effectiveness of the web improves. Paint the target and up it goes. Truth is Truth
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.08.21 03:41:00 - [32] I agree wholeheartedly with the original poster. Originally by: Gripen Wow. Quite surprising for me how many people here agree on the subject. I'm fine with the nanoships who devote most of their slots to be faster than other and be able to escape unwanted engagement but range should be an advantage. Right now if you have your gang at gate and some sniper battleship warps in 150km form the gate it will be tackled in less time than it takes him to warp out. I'd like to see base MWD bonus changed from 500% to 300% velocity. I also agree with this, and I fly Minmatar. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Adam C 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.08.21 05:17:00 - [33] Edited by: Adam C on 21/08/2007 05:20:58 Originally by: welsh wizard I dumped my Ferox 18 months ago. Lies! uve flown it since. Originally by: welsh wizard Range, speed, hitpoints and the way combat has evolved. In my perspective it boils down to player combat environments & player psyche Lets list them; - space bodies * Celestial objects; star gates/ planets/stations [npc/player controlled]/ deep space. * PVE elements; complexes/ agent missions/ escalation points. * Sovereignty warfare; Player owned Structures player and group(s) motivations - isk - power & control - risk and reward tactics & factors * speed * tank * range * electronic war fare * warp disruption bubbles - logistics - supplies strategies - skirmish warfare - baiting - capital warfare - fleet fighting Now I havent even touched player psyche lets talk basics on fight or flight fight or flight basically boils down to fun and stress. How they differ; - fight - risk - time - willingness - organisational skills flight * outnumbered * server performance * real life factors * time * unorganision i.e. chaos * logistical superiority So thats basically my perspective on PVP factors today. More player based factors instead of server/client rule environments that's a hole other post, baby! I think personally Welshies post means speed or tank? What makes a person or group choose which, or. Whats more fun. I've down a little off from Welshies initial sentiment. god, i feel like james 315 now
Valharu	Posted - 2007.08.21 05:34:00 - [34] I don't understand the logic in MWDs not being knocked out by Scrams and Bubbles, the are warp generaters after all, they should be knocked out while they are under that effect. It would give a tactical reason why ABs could be used. I think there are many different ways Speed can be balanced, from letting MWDs get scrambled, to not letting Nanos and other mods work with MWDS, only ABs and I agree, ABs do need a 50% increase. But lets not forget in all this Acceleration is also a factor, I think some ship class's accelrate WAY to fast to reach top end. Even my BS with a MWD takes a few cycles to reach top speed. But Interceptors can reach max speed in a blink and Cruisers in two blinks. But there is a secondary issue I think in all this. IF we can get Speed REBALANCED, it will effect some ships like Interceptors who rely on it to not get killed right way. Ships in general are probably going to need a HP boost to deal with these changes. Personally, I think for a more of a slug match, Battlecruisers and up need 100% more Hit Points and Cruisers and down need 200% more Hit Points. So if these changes are done, people will need to think what effect it will have on other areas of the game. If speed is reduced enough, Webbers may need to be looked at to. Food for thought.
Igualmentedos	Posted - 2007.08.21 06:23:00 - [35] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 20/08/2007 19:07:55 So I was busy whining away in one of the many "boost Caldari!" threads... Most of them focus on the lack of damage from Caldari hybrid platforms. It's true they need more turrets, pretty much everyone agrees on this but I don't believe its the crux of the problem. The real problem is the effective nerfing of a range advantage due to the rapid proliferation of insanely fast ships for relatively little isk. To a lesser extent the hitpoint buff has also contributed to the problem as a whole because sniper ships in small numbers are often unable to reach a desirable damage output in the timeframe required. It got me reminiscing, I remember when a lone sniping battleship was considered a threat at 200km. These days we just laugh at the prospect of a fool silly enough to sit alone at 200km in his Megathron. What happened to this style of combat? Where did it go? It doesn't happen anymore because 200km is a very small distance in post 'need for speed/hitpoint buff' Eve-Online. It's basically globalization on an Eve scale. The universe is a hell of a lot smaller since the introduction of capital ships (thats another discussion though). More importantly the strategical importance of the 250km radius around a fixed object (gate/station/even capital ship) has been diluted. As more and more people fly 10km/s+ ships the range advantage has effectively shrunk so far that we're playing a different game today than the one we used to play a year ago. We don't use warp in points on enemy fleets anymore (very rarely anyway), we just fly one of our very fast ships at them and in under 20 seconds we have have nullified the range advantage. I think most people are ignoring this and simpily blaming the tools we are given to fight with instead. The more I think about it the more I miss the old tactical grid warfare. It was complex and you had to rely on covert pilots to lock down an enemy fleet. This new style of warfare is also chiefly responsible for low damage railboats becoming largely undesirable. Discuss... So sad, but so true. Caldari's much needed buff seems to be ignored by CCP. Almost every change has hurt caldari.
Selnix Gallente Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.21 06:35:00 - [36] I definitely agree that the damage of the Rokh and other Caldari snipers is sub-par, beyond being a bit capacitor-challenged. The Mega can somewhat make up for having only two damage types by having nice tracking and damage bonuses, but the Rokh is just a ship that can shoot a long way off. That enemy HACs can close on a sniper group so fast that aligning back out and warping off just doesn't happen fast enough is insane. That even the Ishtar can close 200km in very short order is even worse. Either MWDs need their speed modifier decreased drastically or sniping range needs to be pushed out beyond 300km.
Naskaya Elegance Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.21 07:05:00 - [37] Edited by: Naskaya on 21/08/2007 07:06:03 A lone sniping battleship still manages to destroy some frigs and beginner's cruisers. It should not be able to destroy other things without taking a risk, in one shot. A pack of sniping battleships is still a very dangerous foe. The sole problem to me is AB module. The starter module could give a bonus of 150% instead. With best modules giving around 200%, you should see some frigs using them, avoiding due to a low signature, turret and missiles damages. I love speed tanking, it's really an alternative to 'classic' tanking, now. And no, it's not overpowered. If you want to be protected from fast ships, bring some huginn and rapier and watch vagabonds and nano-bs die. You can bring some named webifier, too, for range.
Dukath Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.21 08:07:00 - [38] While I agree with the problem I still do not think a simple speed nerf is sufficient. In the past i've suggested the following changes and I more and more believe they are necessary. 1) split the goddamn dual bonus modules 2) Make guns be effective from optimal-falloff to optimal+falloff in stead of 0 to optimal+falloff. (also decrease falloff quite a bit) => This will decrease the effectiveness of a blob enormously since 80% of the blob would be out of effective range of the primary target. => It would also allow for more strategic options, activating and deactivating tracking computers, change of ammo, moving towards targets to get in range in stead of simply aligning out. I believe this would be a much more anti blob measure than any titan, bomb or other silly measure. On the other hand smaller gangs will be less affected by this since they are generally more manouverable and thus can easier move into good range. =>also it reduces the silly drawback of short range battleships vs long range battleships. While a blasterthron in theory has a higher DPS in practise it is a lot smaller than a railthron because it has to move from one target to the next while it can't shoot. The railthron can simply keep shooting 3) Add a 30 second delay when warping to a player. Warping to bookmarks or celestial objects is fast since its programmed in the board computer, warping to a ship would need calculations on the spot and take 30 seconds (silly RP reason). This would give the long range ships a bit of time to kill the fast ceptors. On the other hand it would not affect cloaked position ship since there you have plenty of time. (I'll skip whining about instajumps/warp to 0 as a very bad introduction to eve since its not fully relevant in this case)
Markus Aurelian	Posted - 2007.08.21 08:36:00 - [39] this also puts another race in the dumpster. amarr have those megapulses with nice range, yet are too slow and cap dependent, at least at the battleship level (i.e. can rarely afford to soak that -25% cap size penalty from mwd...combined with their large bulk and mass) to be able to stay at their optimal ranges. i was going to go into a more detailed rant, but im too tired and the beers are dragging me to the bed. in summation 1. nerf speed 2. boost amarr+caldari 3.???? 4. Profit!!!! Meatwad FTW
Victor Forge Amarr	Posted - 2007.08.21 08:42:00 - [40] Originally by: Gort I have to agree with the Op. I miss the days when a single skillful sniper at range might be a significant issue for the pilot of a support ship. Gort If sniping was THE way to combat in Eve would be an extremly boring game since that would take out a huge part of the game. Why even bother with Electronic Warfare? Sniping is already and probably always been the best way to do missions and killing rats. Other methods wouldn¦t even be considered if it was as effective in pvp as it is in pve. If you are not chosing to be Caldari you will have though start but it will pay off later on when one has progressed beyond the stage of doing just missions and killing rats. If Caldari want to be better in pvp they must give up something that makes them good in pve, or we will have to rename the game to "Caldari-online".
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.08.21 09:22:00 - [41] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 20/08/2007 19:44:05 The problem, if there is a problem, is threefold. []Smaller ships are hit too easily be larger ships guns []The combination of many different methods of increasing speeds have produced ridiculous top speeds []It is too easy to circumvent battlefield manuvering by warping The long and short of it is, in order to fix these you need to do a number of things. []Nerf webs such that webbed frigates will still be missed by battleship guns.[they have drones for a reason] []Increase the minimum warp distance from 150km to 300km. []Introduce Cruiser and Battleship sized warp scramblers. High powergrid, higher cap use, longer scramble range. []Make all speed bonuses stacking penalized. Move MWD/Ab speed bonus from the skirmish warfare command module to a mass reduction bonus. []Boost max speed bonus of afterburners by 50% At least, that is what i think. I can only agree here. OD, NANO, ISTAB = only one can be fited (already suggested) I once suggested that sig res on guns would affect what sized target can be tracked. If target < sig res, not able to track at all (same with missiles). That way target painters become very usefull again. Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.08.21 09:46:00 - [42] Edited by: Pan Crastus on 21/08/2007 09:50:58 Edited by: Pan Crastus on 21/08/2007 09:49:09 I would tend to support a nerf to MWD boost (e.g. down to 250% or so), but for the sake of realism ... (yes, I know we're all swimming in water not space etc. etc. :-P) I would prefer simply a MASSIVE agility/inertia penalty when MWD is on so that it can be used to cover long distances quickly, but not to orbit a target while having it tackled. Those 20k vagabonds (with all implants, claymore ...) aren't going away and TBH the T2 non-implant vagas at 5-6k should not be nerfed that much (at 2-3k they're basically useless, a few volleys of cruise missiles / heavies and they're dead) but it's no problem if they can't tackle a sniper in 10s and keep him tackled forever, but can still run away at a high speed. The idea is to pulse your MWD and be able to move X Km in a straight line more or less (X = 100 Km or so for a inty/vaga), but it will take a lot of piloting skill to get close to your target. Then you'll need to turn off MWD and enter orbit at impulse speed. Those 20k vagas will simply overshoot and land 100 Km behind their target ... this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
Eben Rochelle Gallente Free Mercenaries Union FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.21 09:53:00 - [43] There seems to be a worrying trend to decry changes in Eve. the game has been continuously changing/evolving since day 1, however over the past year and a half rather than welcoming change and a fresh style of play people are becoming more obsessed with attaining some sort of status quo where no new tactics are evolved and the game stagnates. I always welome a patch or a change because it adds a different dimension to the game and stops me getting bored, plus it forces people to adapt and encourages the large dose of darwinism that makes Eve the best game i have ever played. I hate to be one of these ****s who throws up the adapt or die argument but without these changes the game would die out. numbers would drop steadily as more and more vets became jaded. the current speed fetish is wil be replaced by something else, and tbh sniping hs had its day, it was never a particularly inventive tactic and for the most part wasnt exactly fun. warp to cov ops, lock primary, pew pew rinse and repeat does not a fun combat make. i find that the majority of players prefer small gang combat because of the greater range of strategies and tactics they can employ and the greater choice of ships. As for the hitpoint increase, not so long ago the cries were for longer combat because we were all getting instapopped by snipers =D
SwindonBadger 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.08.21 10:01:00 - [44] However ever it gets nerfed/looked we also need a target speed top speed on inty + snakes and gang bonus (command ship) 11 kps top speed on inty + snakes 9 kps top speed on inty (just top mods) 7 kps at 11 kps ur pritty safe and u need ur gang buddy in sight, if u turn wrong u will still get hit (unlike 20 + kps) and the difference for inty v inty v sabre v vagga will be allot more personal/fun and costly to eek out the extra few kps not 10+kps.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.21 10:03:00 - [45] Originally by: Eben Rochelle and tbh sniping hs had its day, it was never a particularly inventive tactic and for the most part wasnt exactly fun. its even less fun if a big part of your ships are dedicated snipers!
ry ry StateCorp The State	Posted - 2007.08.21 10:09:00 - [46] Edited by: ry ry on 21/08/2007 10:13:21 I don't think nerfing MWD would help. stick a mwd + speed mods on a stabber and it goes, what? 3k? that's not a speed tank. Clearly, the problem is that by stacking the same bonus over and over with snakes, faction gear, boosters etc. rather than the speedboost provided by a MWD. You can reach silly multipliers. Back when i used to play WoW i had a lovely warlock, and i spent ages farming all the damage multiplier gear. In the end i could oneshot most non-epic'd chatarcters if i scored a crit. it was fun, i got lots of pvp rank, but it wasn't balanced. I stopped playing years ago but apparently blizzard's solution was a cap on critical damage from locks. well, that and nerfing them back to being as crap as they were before. Perhaps just enforce a maximum speed a ship is capable of withstanding without damaging itself proportional to mass or something. then you wont see any more 45k stilettos, but you won't nerf the crap out MWDs on larger ships that don't go stupidly fast in the first place. and anybody who wants to bring back the nanophoons and 200km sniper BS solopwnmobiles are daft.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.08.21 10:10:00 - [47] Originally by: Valharu I don't understand the logic in MWDs not being knocked out by Scrams and Bubbles, the are warp generaters after all, they should be knocked out while they are under that effect. It would give a tactical reason why ABs could be used. I think there are many different ways Speed can be balanced, from letting MWDs get scrambled, to not letting Nanos and other mods work with MWDS, only ABs and I agree, ABs do need a 50% increase. But lets not forget in all this Acceleration is also a factor, I think some ship class's accelrate WAY to fast to reach top end. Even my BS with a MWD takes a few cycles to reach top speed. But Interceptors can reach max speed in a blink and Cruisers in two blinks. But there is a secondary issue I think in all this. IF we can get Speed REBALANCED, it will effect some ships like Interceptors who rely on it to not get killed right way. Ships in general are probably going to need a HP boost to deal with these changes. Personally, I think for a more of a slug match, Battlecruisers and up need 100% more Hit Points and Cruisers and down need 200% more Hit Points. So if these changes are done, people will need to think what effect it will have on other areas of the game. If speed is reduced enough, Webbers may need to be looked at to. Food for thought. while your initial idea is nice oh god please no more hp boosts ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn
SiJira	Posted - 2007.08.21 10:12:00 - [48] Originally by: Naskaya Edited by: Naskaya on 21/08/2007 07:06:03 A lone sniping battleship still manages to destroy some frigs and beginner's cruisers. It should not be able to destroy other things without taking a risk, in one shot. A pack of sniping battleships is still a very dangerous foe. have you looked up the sword snipe or sniper lately? a pack of snipers is almost like saying a pack of nuclear bombers and yet it isnt because their range is not enough targetting being shorter than range is a big issue ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.08.21 10:19:00 - [49] Originally by: SiJira targetting being shorter than range is a big issue I doubt that they will ever change the targeting cap. Even if they made grids larger (at the cost of a performance hit ... and as we all know we have no performance issues, right? :-P) you'd still hit grid boundaries more often and have all kinds of weird effects. "Grid tanking" anyone? :-/ this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.21 11:10:00 - [50] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 20/08/2007 20:24:43 I see your point Kagura but this thread is about discussing the way speed combined with large quantities of hitpoints affects the way we play. I'm not interested in discussing the nerf of any particular module even if it may go someway to rectifying the 'problem' (if there is one as Goumindong said). The nerf threads come later. :P I am not focuse on the MWD as a nerf target, but in the fact that Every ship nowadays is capable of very high speeds. And this is all inside the topic. RAnge and positioning is irrelevant when all BS can reach 1km/s. And when tacklers can reach 12 km/s and get to you in 4 seconds. This is way wrong. Have screwed the "way of fight". I would liek something so that only a few ships in a fight were configures to speed, and that SPEED meant somethign like 4-6 km/s for ceptors. Not 10-12 km/s I am trying to point that the problem is not simply all ships nanoed, but all ships fitting fur huge speed burts. THAT is the thing that nullify the range and positioning, and makes the really speed ships to put even more speed focus and decide that they need to go 10 km/s. Its a snow ball rolling down hill. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.21 11:16:00 - [51] Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 21/08/2007 10:13:21 I don't think nerfing MWD would help. stick a mwd + speed mods on a stabber and it goes, what? 3k? that's not a speed tank. Clearly, the problem is that by stacking the same bonus over and over with snakes, faction gear, boosters etc. rather than the speedboost provided by a MWD. You can reach silly multipliers. Back when i used to play WoW i had a lovely warlock, and i spent ages farming all the damage multiplier gear. In the end i could oneshot most non-epic'd chatarcters if i scored a crit. it was fun, i got lots of pvp rank, but it wasn't balanced. I stopped playing years ago but apparently blizzard's solution was a cap on critical damage from locks. well, that and nerfing them back to being as crap as they were before. Perhaps just enforce a maximum speed a ship is capable of withstanding without damaging itself proportional to mass or something. then you wont see any more 45k stilettos, but you won't nerf the crap out MWDs on larger ships that don't go stupidly fast in the first place. and anybody who wants to bring back the nanophoons and 200km sniper BS solopwnmobiles are daft. the issue is not simply speed tanks! But the fact that everyone beign able of quite high speeds, make range and positioning irrelevant. Why do you think ammar sucks? Now imagine a game with no MWD, you may be SURE Ammar would POWN ecause of their superior mid range power. As is now, range is pretty irrelevant. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.21 11:26:00 - [52] I'm of the opinion that no ship should be invulnerable simply by being a long way away, as it was yesteryear. Anyone who could fit a decent turret sniping set up and could sit 200km away was invincible from all. He either managed to pop the enemy, or leisurely aligned and warped as the too-tough target creeped it's way towards him. Unless the sniper was terminally stupid or incredibly unlucky, theres almost no way of actually getting a confirmed kill (the old cloaked tackler was the only real way, and due to the general low survivability of a cloaking tackler, it wasn't a tricky tactic to counter). Sniping is still perfectly plausible these days, but not as a solo-wtfpwn tactic. In a fleet, it's entirely possible to have a group of tacklers sat on the target holding them still while snipers snipe away from 200km. A Caldari hybrid-sniper is still a perfectly sensible choice for fleet engagements (or would be if their damage was balanced a little better), and fleet battles still tend to be won by the sniper fleets, not the "unbeatable blaster boats"... The advent of more and more variable counters to what is imo a very tedious tactic is nothing but a good thing... --------
ry ry StateCorp The State	Posted - 2007.08.21 11:48:00 - [53] Originally by: Kagura Nikon But the fact that everyone beign able of quite high speeds, make range and positioning irrelevant. on the contrary, it makes it vitally important. it's no longer just a case of setting up your camp, getting everybody to their optimal and waiting until something strolls into the designated killzone, now you need a contingency for a huginn managing to get to one of your snipers, or for the enemy fleet to move out of your range, rather than sitting there waiting to be killed. i like the manuverability this affords. my only problem with speed is the sheer amount of speed some ships can reach - they're effectively outclassing the tools available to deal with them. if you can't catch or hit a ship the only option is to leg it, and that's a shame.
Sir Scorpion Black Banners	Posted - 2007.08.21 11:57:00 - [54] To make lone snipers useful its quite simple, located damage, so basically the lone sniper will hang at 200 and shoot of his first round and kill off the MWD, or guns or whatever. Then he may have his way with the target. This should only be limited to the sniper calls of each weapon, so rails beams and artilleries, and it will be in that order, since rails have the lowest dps and alpha, thy will have the best chance of a hit ôand yes I say it must be luck + normal gunnery restrictionsö beams will be the middle ground and artilleries will have the lower chance.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.08.21 12:01:00 - [55] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: SiJira targetting being shorter than range is a big issue I doubt that they will ever change the targeting cap. Even if they made grids larger (at the cost of a performance hit ... and as we all know we have no performance issues, right? :-P) you'd still hit grid boundaries more often and have all kinds of weird effects. "Grid tanking" anyone? :-/ it will have to be changed with the whole engine remake ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.21 12:40:00 - [56] Originally by: ry ry Originally by: Kagura Nikon But the fact that everyone beign able of quite high speeds, make range and positioning irrelevant. on the contrary, it makes it vitally important. it's no longer just a case of setting up your camp, getting everybody to their optimal and waiting until something strolls into the designated killzone, now you need a contingency for a huginn managing to get to one of your snipers, or for the enemy fleet to move out of your range, rather than sitting there waiting to be killed. i like the manuverability this affords. my only problem with speed is the sheer amount of speed some ships can reach - they're effectively outclassing the tools available to deal with them. if you can't catch or hit a ship the only option is to leg it, and that's a shame. You are thinkign snipers only when i speak range. That is not the case. Thing an Ammar BS, at 30 km form another BS. It would be far superior at this range with Pulse lasers. But any minmatar or Gallente BS will be at 3 km from him in half minute. That screw completely the range and relative positioning. Also an ceptor can be there in 3 seconds, and web him!!! That is beyond ridiculous. An engagement moving form medium range to close range should take far longer Also currently 90% of ships i see crossing hostile borders are nanoships or cloakers. That makes combat very very hard to achieve and all focused on bubbles! When was last time you saw a lone of pair of battleships roam in enemy territory? Or even BCs? being inside or outside Scramble range is a matter of 2 seconds now! That summed to an EASILY achievable lag of 2-3 seconds in any gang combat and the positioning and range becomes irrelevant. Only bubbles matter! Range and positioning is irrelevant today, because between close and medium range or vice versa it can change in a blink of eye, far before the server can respond to your commands. If ceptors are worried of their only tank.. ok. Drop speed also drop tracking of all guns and missile explosion velocity. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.21 13:02:00 - [57] I never liked MWD's on other than frigate sized ships. They could nerf MWD 10mn and 100mn sizes back to hell! I use AB! It's way more cap effencient! CCP giving "oomph" to Amarr's: Nerffing most of ships via Khanid Mk2. Enjoy your "oomphffs" people! :rolleyes:
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.21 13:37:00 - [58] Please keep this discussion alive! If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.08.21 13:54:00 - [59] Originally by: SwindonBadger However ever it gets nerfed/looked we also need a target speed top speed on inty + snakes and gang bonus (command ship) 11 kps top speed on inty + snakes 9 kps top speed on inty (just top mods) 7 kps at 11 kps ur pritty safe and u need ur gang buddy in sight, if u turn wrong u will still get hit (unlike 20 + kps) and the difference for inty v inty v sabre v vagga will be allot more personal/fun and costly to eek out the extra few kps not 10+kps. If that's the top overloaded MWD speed I would agree. However, for sustained speeds I believe 5-6km/sec for the fastest setups is the range we should be looking at: Warrior II's top out at 6.3km/sec, Hobgoblin II's hit, at most, 4.2km/sec, Precision light missiles 5.6km/sec with a 4.5km/sec explosion velocity (8.4km/sec on two specialised ships). These are all anti-'small fast ship' weapons that currently can be outpaced by even destroyer and cruiser sized platforms. Sustained possible frigate-hull speeds of 5-6km/sec with 7.5-9km/sec temp overloading would allow temporary kiting of light drones/missiles. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.21 14:13:00 - [60] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: SwindonBadger However ever it gets nerfed/looked we also need a target speed top speed on inty + snakes and gang bonus (command ship) 11 kps top speed on inty + snakes 9 kps top speed on inty (just top mods) 7 kps at 11 kps ur pritty safe and u need ur gang buddy in sight, if u turn wrong u will still get hit (unlike 20 + kps) and the difference for inty v inty v sabre v vagga will be allot more personal/fun and costly to eek out the extra few kps not 10+kps. If that's the top overloaded MWD speed I would agree. However, for sustained speeds I believe 5-6km/sec for the fastest setups is the range we should be looking at: Warrior II's top out at 6.3km/sec, Hobgoblin II's hit, at most, 4.2km/sec, Precision light missiles 5.6km/sec with a 4.5km/sec explosion velocity (8.4km/sec on two specialised ships). These are all anti-'small fast ship' weapons that currently can be outpaced by even destroyer and cruiser sized platforms. Sustained possible frigate-hull speeds of 5-6km/sec with 7.5-9km/sec temp overloading would allow temporary kiting of light drones/missiles. EXACLTY!!! The speed limit should be around top skilled light drones and stil be hit by specialized light missiles. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

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