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Range, speed, hitpoints and the way combat has evolved.

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Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.08.21 14:23:00 - [61] Take off the max targetting range limit and let that be limited by your sensor boosts. Its not a technical problem since manned POS's can hit out to 500km+ Once thats removed, return T2 sniping ammo to the range bonus it had pre-nerf. Sniping ships will then be able to engage at distances of 250-300km (maybe further for the rokh?) This will indirectly nerf speed ships without annoying players again with another direct nano nerf. Enough nerfing has already happened, though I really wouldn't add any more +speed multipliers to the game, there are plenty already available.
Valharu	Posted - 2007.08.21 16:02:00 - [62] Been reading alot here and it seems a few things stand out. Top end speeds with MWD with Mods, Rigs and Implants are way to exstream. Sub space speed is a tad to slow. Acceleration way to fast on Crusiers and down with reguards to using MWDs. Races ment to be fast a tad to slow to make it really matter in subspace. If exstream speeds get reduced, Sniping may be return AS the only tactic to do. Ships may not have enough hit points for Tankage to have any chance to deal with Snipers. Right now, there is no real tactical advantage to using a Afterburner. I think there should be some thought on restricting how things work. Such as greater disabilities when using MWDs after a ship goes past a certain speck for it or restricting which mods work with Afterburners and which can work with MWDs and stacking pens, and Implants work with both. I really don't see Nanos and other mods working with MWDs, they are a subspace factor. Course a interesting idea might be you can't fire weapons while using a MWD, can't fight warping gate to gate, maybe you shouldnt beable to fire when MWD is active. Just throwing out ideas here, alot of people have said some good stuff so just bring more ideas to the table here for people to think about.
prathe Minmatar Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.21 16:43:00 - [63] some ships like dictors and vaga's and ceptors need the nano but when you start seeing it like it is now it's just ridiculous but i guess it's just player taste some people like to run away from a fight others like to fight .... .02
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.21 16:57:00 - [64] Originally by: prathe some ships like dictors and vaga's and ceptors need the nano but when you start seeing it like it is now it's just ridiculous but i guess it's just player taste some people like to run away from a fight others like to fight .... .02 Even those ships don't need current speeds. A simple T2 fitted captor can reach 10 km/s now using overheat. Put snakes and a deadspace mwd and this goes to near 20km/s NO ones should have speeds above 6-7 km/s If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.21 18:14:00 - [65] Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 21/08/2007 18:16:14 Originally by: Gripen Wow. Quite surprising for me how many people here agree on the subject. I'm fine with the nanoships who devote most of their slots to be faster than other and be able to escape unwanted engagement but range should be an advantage. Right now if you have your gang at gate and some sniper battleship warps in 150km form the gate it will be tackled in less time than it takes him to warp out. I'd like to see base MWD bonus changed from 500% to 300% velocity. / signed Ceptors, Dictors, stabber/vaga as speed ships. CCP needs to decrease the ODJ and Aux thrust bonuses, decrease the affect of reduced mass on mwd velocity, and decrease snakes (less velocity, increased % to avoid customs). stabber/vaga are designed to move quick to bring ac's to bear, minmatar and highly vulnerable. Change Myrm drone bay to 100m, no reason it should do the same drone damage as a battleship. Change speed mod/rigs... dump the ninja-quick ishkur/ishtar and other droneboats as fast as vagabonds. Don't change speed mod/rigs, just wait for nano-Khanid MKII ships. Decrease Heavy Assault Missile Damage, with Khanid MKII ships getting bonuses for them the damage is too great. THUKKER -Be Paranoid
Zak Kingsman A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.08.21 18:33:00 - [66] Edited by: Zak Kingsman on 21/08/2007 18:38:02 hell no, sniper fights are boring, knife fights are fun. However fleet is still long range BS/ fit t2 guns or dont bother snooze fests. Combat is still too fast (in terms of time from engagement to time of kill) especially in fleet (partially due to the sizes of said fleets). There's not much tactical manuevering. And yes the old cat and mouse of warp in points and manuevering for warp in points was fun to a certain extent, but I'd like to see more manuevering during fleet fights. I dont know if that's even possible with the eve we have now but I have a dream :) Yeah ok, with some of the snakes and rigs it can get silly. This game used to be about logarithmic progression IE that level 5 skill is the same advantage over a level 4 as a level 4 is over a 3 but it took you twice as long as it took you to get to level 4. T2 pretty much changed that, but by now t2 is older tech and specialization means that even relatively new to the game people can manage a t2 ship. They might not be able to manage the money for all the implants and rigs. I think implants and rigs need to be toned down so they give an edge not an iwin. That said I still dislike sniper fights.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.08.21 19:13:00 - [67] Why doesn't anyone like the idea to add a massive agility/inertia penalty when MWD is on, so that MWD can only be used to get the hell out and not to orbit a target? :-/ this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
Nyxus GALAXIAN RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.21 19:22:00 - [68] Originally by: Pan Crastus Why doesn't anyone like the idea to add a massive agility/inertia penalty when MWD is on, so that MWD can only be used to get the hell out and not to orbit a target? :-/ I think it's great, and teh mwd has one now. But increasing the penalty could be problematic in terms of bumping and inertia. 100mn MWD Zealot bumping anyone? The more I think about it, the easiest thing to do is just put a hard cap on speed per ship. That way you can reach the cap via implants, mods, rigs, faction, whatever but intead of the result being wtfinvincible speed it just gives you more options on your ship. Tops speeds should be limited by anti speed mods as someone pointed out. Light matari drones, precision missiles et. The problem I have now is that speeds are so high that the things meant to counter them simply don't work well, if at all. Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Valharu	Posted - 2007.08.21 21:27:00 - [69] Nyxus idea has merit, I would like to see a little more then that but I still like his idea.
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.08.22 03:57:00 - [70] And then there shall be no more Interceptors.
Arenis Xemdal Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.22 04:23:00 - [71] I like how you put in a completely unrelated request for boosting Caldari, and said "pretty much everyone agrees to this" to avoid further discussion. Well I don't, and I can safely say anyone who does is wrong. The premise of your post against speed is wrong, in my opinion, but the disgruntlement with super fast ships is valid. What I mean is.. The fastest ships in the game are still the fastest ships in the game (Interceptors), so you can't claim CCP have changed much there. If people are flying at 10km/s+ now with the help of special implants and rigs, they're not doing it nearly as cheaply as they were with dual-mwd or dual-ab setups. Remember the 8km/s Mallers? Remember how speed was the only valid form of defense for anything smaller than a Battleship? I don't miss the ganking, and I don't miss the need to fly at ridiculous speeds in every ship just to stay alive. Range doesn't work as well in EVE because the difference between tech 2 and tech 1 ammo has been lowered. But before people were using tech 2 or even meta gear, 100km was considered long range. I would say over the evolution of EVE, what was considered long range before on all ships is now medium range. And 'long range' in general has doubled. Even if you nerfed speed massively, your nostalgic trip to old school covert ops grid-busting would be for naught. If ships aren't flying to you in 20 seconds, they're gonna scan you down in 20 seconds. PS: Your "low damage railboats becoming largely undesirable" is another thing I would disagree with. Eagle, Vulture and Rokh all do well in fleets. What else is there? Harpy? AF suck for fleets in general, but if I had to pick one to use, that would be it.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.08.22 09:12:00 - [72] While we're at it bring back the old probing! It was far more rewarding, I don't bother doing it these days because its so bloody easy (logic? no). The majority disagree with your railboat assertion though. The Rokh is a good ship but thats because it has 8 guns. Lets face it, most of Caldari railboats just aren't in the same class as the other races ships of the same size/cost.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.22 11:03:00 - [73] Originally by: Arenis Xemdal I like how you put in a completely unrelated request for boosting Caldari, and said "pretty much everyone agrees to this" to avoid further discussion. Well I don't, and I can safely say anyone who does is wrong. The premise of your post against speed is wrong, in my opinion, but the disgruntlement with super fast ships is valid. What I mean is.. The fastest ships in the game are still the fastest ships in the game (Interceptors), so you can't claim CCP have changed much there. If people are flying at 10km/s+ now with the help of special implants and rigs, they're not doing it nearly as cheaply as they were with dual-mwd or dual-ab setups. Remember the 8km/s Mallers? Remember how speed was the only valid form of defense for anything smaller than a Battleship? I don't miss the ganking, and I don't miss the need to fly at ridiculous speeds in every ship just to stay alive. Range doesn't work as well in EVE because the difference between tech 2 and tech 1 ammo has been lowered. But before people were using tech 2 or even meta gear, 100km was considered long range. I would say over the evolution of EVE, what was considered long range before on all ships is now medium range. And 'long range' in general has doubled. Even if you nerfed speed massively, your nostalgic trip to old school covert ops grid-busting would be for naught. If ships aren't flying to you in 20 seconds, they're gonna scan you down in 20 seconds. PS: Your "low damage railboats becoming largely undesirable" is another thing I would disagree with. Eagle, Vulture and Rokh all do well in fleets. What else is there? Harpy? AF suck for fleets in general, but if I had to pick one to use, that would be it. wrong, with simple t2 equipment a ceptor can reach 10km/s , because of stupid overheat. It cheaper than ever (comapred to the current income level of average PVPer) If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
KenDoll	Posted - 2007.08.22 11:47:00 - [74] you should change the title to "the way combat has de-evolved", mwd's have ruined all range advantages and are closer to being an i-win/engage and disengage at will device than a seriously thought out and needed mod, they are way to fast. ever seen a faction mwd on an occator? hilarious stuff.
Sylia Minmatar Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.08.22 14:01:00 - [75] Originally by: Kagura Nikon wrong, with simple t2 equipment a ceptor can reach 10km/s , because of stupid overheat. It cheaper than ever (comapred to the current income level of average PVPer) How much tacklign can you do with a turned off scram after ur overheated mwd kilsl it? stop lookign at the max and look at the sustainable (ie doesnt include overheating) And spped tankign to the extrem it is now has evolved as its the best way to counter the borign old bubble blob ona a gate.
SwindonBadger 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.08.22 14:03:00 - [76] Originally by: Sylia Originally by: Kagura Nikon wrong, with simple t2 equipment a ceptor can reach 10km/s , because of stupid overheat. It cheaper than ever (comapred to the current income level of average PVPer) How much tacklign can you do with a turned off scram after ur overheated mwd kilsl it? stop lookign at the max and look at the sustainable (ie doesnt include overheating) And spped tankign to the extrem it is now has evolved as its the best way to counter the borign old bubble blob ona a gate. I can safly say its very easy to overheat ur mods even at lev4 + ... it makes for a really intrest rest of battle being stuck at 800 mps with no scram web or mwd...
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.22 17:27:00 - [77] Originally by: Sylia Originally by: Kagura Nikon wrong, with simple t2 equipment a ceptor can reach 10km/s , because of stupid overheat. It cheaper than ever (comapred to the current income level of average PVPer) How much tacklign can you do with a turned off scram after ur overheated mwd kilsl it? stop lookign at the max and look at the sustainable (ie doesnt include overheating) And spped tankign to the extrem it is now has evolved as its the best way to counter the borign old bubble blob ona a gate. have you ever tried? A single cycle in overheat not rarelly will work without incidents, and the questionn is is IMPOSSIBLE to get a inti that overheats.. no weapon will hit it. You think gate camp is boring? You have no idea how boring is to see that all ships crossing are inties that run 10km/s or cloakers. Eve is a COMBAT game, its time for more combat and less running away! If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.08.22 17:41:00 - [78] Originally by: Crax McGee Be nice. -Hango i think people should still be able 2 go 8k in cruisers and stuff. but it should not be for the common man who has just put overdrives and polycarbons too his ship. Thousands of players can afford snakes, I'm suprised someone have to tell you this Caldari and proud
Rhaegor Stormborn	Posted - 2007.08.22 17:42:00 - [79] Originally by: welsh wizard Truth I really don't have anything to add or discuss, you are correct 100%. You can not lead nor win a war from the forums.
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.08.22 19:02:00 - [80] Nerf MWD down a bit. Leave T2 MWD drive alone but limit it to Intys and the 2-3 speed specific ships. This allows you to use a MWD but not close the 200km gap in 10 seconds. You can still go damn fast. Possible counters? The more nano's or OD's you mount the less struture you have and as you MWD around and do turns.. your structure goes down due to hull stress. You wanna speed tank that cruiser? fine.. but if you want to turn.. you gotta shut it off (how they would code this, I dunno) MWDing with Nanos in a 5km orbit SHOULD rip your damn ship apart.. no questions. MWD orbit w/o nanos or other "mass reducing" mods.. ok But you get either MWD for speed or lighter materials for speed... put them both together and you got a ship that literally flys apart if you try anything other then flying straight. The use of nano's and MWD's needs to be balanced with speed to cause structure damage due to hull stress from high speed manuvering. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Nyxus GALAXIAN RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.22 19:48:00 - [81] Thinking about this some more; Speed should be more like resistance. The closer you get to the upper limit, the less return you get on your mods/implants/rigs. There is a reason why you can't get to 100% resistance and it should be the same for speed. Max speeds should be the equitable to the counters of speed, ie Matari light drones, precision missiles, etc. Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Glach Duwat	Posted - 2007.08.22 20:17:00 - [82] Honestly, I think the current system is just fine, there is still a place in the world for snipers. The difference is, you can't do it alone. But is that a problem? Eve is not a solo game. It's designed around the gang and fleet warfare, and speed doesn't change that. IF ANYTHING is done, it should be that the bigger the ship the slower it is, which is true in most cases, but when fitting an MWD on a frigate nerfs your ability to do anything but MicroWarp, than it's a problem. Frigates advantage is it's speed, but with cruisers and destroyer class vessels being able to hit 10k a second, your remove the advantage of a frigate. Case and point, it is not ruining the game, it just changes the tactics, you want to stop ships from coming up on your ass fast? roll with someone else. Two or three man gangs can make a great sniper/support gang. And that's not hurting the game.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.08.23 11:48:00 - [83] Edited by: N1fty on 23/08/2007 12:03:08 I remember when ships could fit two microwarpdrives until Exodus removed it. Speeds back then were insane and ever since we have been creeping back up. We should be given more mods and implants to boost tracking / explosion velocity to compensate for speed tanking. Yes we have tracking computers, and a couple of implants for explosion velocity, but these really cannot compensate against a 10K/s+ ship. Even a 90% webber will only take it down to 1K/s and thats if you somehow get inside of 10k to 19k to use a faction or overheated web, and the only way to get in range is to have a faster speedtank than he does. And it should not be the case where only one ship in the game is capable of taking on a speed setup. So to say "Fly with a Huginn" will mean everyone is either flying a speed ship or a huginn. One interesting module I saw in the database is a module that increases the targets mass, I remember it had a range of 30k and I think it would work rather nicely against speed tanking ships. It doesnt stop speed tanking, it just gives people who dont speed tank a scissors to the speed tanks paper. EDIT: With regards to mass, obviously a small ship with small mass will be effected less than a big ship with a big mass. In this way a frig will be much faster than a battleship when being effected by the mass device [let me see if I can find the stats...]. ============================================
Nyxus GALAXIAN RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.25 18:34:00 - [84] I was talking this over with a couple of friends. Why not put in a drawback to speed? As your speed increases, so does you sig radius until going faster than say 5 or 6 km/s makes your sig rad be roughly the equivalent of a dread. This makes it less optimal to completely max your speed attributes. It also gives a point to afterburners with a lesser sig penalty. Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Minmatar096773	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:18:00 - [85] Originally by: Nyxus I was talking this over with a couple of friends. Why not put in a drawback to speed? As your speed increases, so does you sig radius until going faster than say 5 or 6 km/s makes your sig rad be roughly the equivalent of a dread. This makes it less optimal to completely max your speed attributes. It also gives a point to afterburners with a lesser sig penalty. Nyxus How does that make any sense?
Magazaki	Posted - 2007.08.31 14:23:00 - [86] What I would like to see and would make sense to me would be better afterburners and worse microwarpdrives, or better base speed same afterburners and worse microwarpdrives. There should be less difference between mwd/non-mwd speed imho... Maybe (theoretic numbers)... Change MWD from +500% -> +300-350% and lessen sigradius penalty accordingly (+300%/+350%) Change AB from +100% -> +150%
Cornucopian Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.31 14:37:00 - [87] I agree with some adjustment of the uberspeeds... these days small gang PvP is just: ZOMGVAGAWEBSCRAMBOOM. with people having severe trouble locking the vaga in the first place. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by: Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!
ttrrwafsfamfjkasjf	Posted - 2007.08.31 14:51:00 - [88] Why can't people deal with it instead of asking for a nerf? This thread is more useful for getting ideas for how to deal with speed maniacs.
Gess Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.31 15:05:00 - [89] How about when you're mwd-ing you can't lock targets or activate certain modules just like when you warp. After all you're microWARPdriving...
dgsdfgasgasgsdfg	Posted - 2007.09.01 10:59:00 - [90] Originally by: Gess How about when you're mwd-ing you can't lock targets or activate certain modules just like when you warp. After all you're microWARPdriving... That can't possibly be a good idea.

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