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welsh wizard
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Posted - 2007.08.20 18:24:00 -
[1]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 20/08/2007 18:24:35
So I was busy whining away in one of the many "boost Caldari!" threads... Most of them focus on the lack of damage from Caldari hybrid platforms. It's true they need more turrets, pretty much everyone agrees on this but I don't believe its the crux of the problem.
The biggest problem with Eve combat today is the effective nerfing of a range advantage due to the rapid proliferation of insanely fast ships for very little isk. To a lesser extent the hitpoint buff has also contributed to the problem as a whole because sniper ships in small numbers are often unable to reach a desirable damage output in the timeframe required.
It got me reminiscing, I remember when a lone sniping battleship was considered a threat at 200km. These days we just laugh at the prospect of a fool silly enough to sit alone at 200km in his Megathron. What happened to this style of combat? Where did it go?
It doesn't happen anymore because 200km is a very small distance in post 'need for speed/hitpoint buff' Eve-Online. It's basically globalization on an Eve scale. The universe is a hell of a lot smaller since the introduction of capital ships (thats another discussion though). More importantly the strategical importance of the 250km radius around a fixed object (gate/station/even capital ship) has been diluted.
As more and more people fly 10km/s+ ships the range advantage has effectively shrunk so far that we're playing a different game today than the one we used to play a year ago. We don't use warp in points on enemy fleets anymore (very rarely anyway), we just fly one of our very fast ships at them and in under 20 seconds we have have nullified the range advantage.
I think most people are ignoring this and simpily blaming the tools we are given to fight with instead. The more I think about it the more I miss the old tactical grid warfare. It was complex and you had to rely on covert pilots to lock down an enemy fleet. This new style of warfare is also chiefly responsible for low damage railboats becoming largely undesirable.
Discuss...
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.08.20 18:28:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/08/2007 18:29:11
4 years ago you were happy to get 2% more damage, tanking or speed. Today, we have so many ways to add to a specific attribute (skills, modules, rigs, implants, gang bonuses) that it becomes way too much. It doesnt help that some implants, while expensive, give insane bonuses.
A nerf is hardly something that will be agreed on from people who have payed billions for their implants though.
---
 Originally by: CCP Wrangler
You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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welsh wizard
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Posted - 2007.08.20 18:31:00 -
[3]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 20/08/2007 18:31:08
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/08/2007 18:29:11
4 years ago you were happy to get 2% more damage, tanking or speed. Today, we have so many ways to add to a specific attribute (skills, modules, rigs, implants, gang bonuses) that it becomes way too much. It doesnt help that some implants, while expensive, give insane bonuses.
A nerf is hardly something that will be agreed on from people who have payed billions for their implants though.
I've spent billions in snakes over the past year or two... I guess its whether or not we're able to think about the game as a whole rather than ourselves only.
Agree with you on all points though.
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Crax McGee
Silentium.
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Posted - 2007.08.20 18:49:00 -
[4]
F*CK OFF WELSH with the nano's whines.
some of us vets played with nano things years ago.
it doesnt need a general nerf.
i think people should still be able 2 go 8k in cruisers and stuff. but it should not be for the common man who has just put overdrives and polycarbons too his ship. it should be snakes only. so it can still be done but less often.
flying fast is fun, so why nerf it. skirmish is fun. so why nerf it.
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Berand
Obsidian Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.20 18:53:00 -
[5]
It's somewhat ironic that as the servers suffer from more and more lag, we make our ships go faster and faster. Maybe we're unconsciously trying to compensate!
Anyway, your assessment seems pretty accurate. I always felt that ODs and nanos should be limited to 1 per ship, like a DCU. I mean, in reality an engine either has overdrive or it doesn't. It doesn't have two overdrives. Same with the nanos. You're either replacing parts with lighter materials, or you're not.
It really wouldn't be hard to get a handle on the crazy speed ships are capable of these days, if CCP wants to take the steps.
Berand
I had a great idea! We could copy Outbreak's sigs! I've only seen it done like, one or two or maybe three times, so it's sure to be funny. |
Laboratus
Gallente
BGG
League of Abnormal Gentlemen
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Posted - 2007.08.20 18:54:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Laboratus on 20/08/2007 18:55:40
I think part of the problem is the fact that speed tanks need insane speeds.
Generally tracking should be lowered so that a BS speed of 3k/s would be a viable speed tank.
Edit:
But yeah, you are right on most points.
The "old school" fleets are still viable, but sadly only in larger rokh fleets (ya, those are so common...)
___
P.S.
Post with your main.
Mind control and tin hats |
welsh wizard
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Posted - 2007.08.20 18:56:00 -
[7]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 20/08/2007 18:56:10
Originally by: Crax McGee
F*CK OFF WELSH with the nano's whines.
some of us vets played with nano things years ago.
it doesnt need a general nerf.
i think people should still be able 2 go 8k in cruisers and stuff. but it should not be for the common man who has just put overdrives and polycarbons too his ship. it should be snakes only. so it can still be done but less often.
flying fast is fun, so why nerf it. skirmish is fun. so why nerf it.
Erm first of all its supposed to be a civil discussion, second of all I've been flying fast ships pretty much exclusively since I dumped my Ferox 18 months ago. I'm fully aware of how much fun it can be and just how effective it is too.
It has changed grid warfare though and in my opinion a bit too much. Rather than crucify me for wanting to discuss it please add to the thread constructively.
Ta.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.20 19:00:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Laboratus
Edited by: Laboratus on 20/08/2007 18:55:40
I think part of the problem is the fact that speed tanks need insane speeds.
Generally tracking should be lowered so that a BS speed of 3k/s would be a viable speed tank.
Edit:
But yeah, you are right on most points.
The "old school" fleets are still viable, but sadly only in larger rokh fleets (ya, those are so common...)
Problem is not tracking. Problem is.. need to avoid missiles AND you must be way faster than that .. because you need to be much faster than enemy tacklers.
I really hate MWD. It makes eve an all or nothing game. Distance is irrelevant, speed >>>> everything. Who fits AB? almost no one why? because what is the point on 100% speed boost> When even if you are a fast frig with AB, you are Way slower than a BS with MWD? This is simply non-sense.
I reaaally think MWD base seepd boost should be reduced to 200%.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
CrestoftheStars
Recoil Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.08.20 19:21:00 -
[9]
i see two major problems at the time.
first and most importent:
all speed bonus is calculated on the ACTIVE speed not the BASE speed of a ship.
this means that instead of the fastest bs going around 1,6k as max with implants rigs and everything.
it now goest 6-7k.
fix this and the speed problem is done with.
secoundly:
the one siezed alfa omega EW.
exspecially WEBBERS.
webbers are way overpowered considering it is a low req medslot module that effectively KILLS any fast ships that comes within 10km-19km(faction overheat).
this means any fight will have to be above 20 km if your in the smaller ship attacking a bigger.
and scramblers for that matter, same history..
these needs siezes and effect after what they are made to hurt, like everything else in the game...
(dampers, ecm and target painters too.. )
___________________________________________
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.20 19:26:00 -
[10]
Still disagree. Think the whole problem is MWD. Everyone uses them. that force speed tanking to be EXTREME speed tanking. A moderate speed advantage means nothing. You must be able to get in and out of enemy range in 3 seconds... pfff idiotic.
Remove MWD or Cut their power by HALF. Then you will see interesting fights and with teams having time to work together to position itself on field and controlling range. Not the ridiculous all out speed burst that happens every time a battle starts.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Gort
Rampage Eternal
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.08.20 19:30:00 -
[11]
I have to agree with the Op. I miss the days when a single skillful sniper at range might be a significant issue for the pilot of a support ship.
Gort
--
When in doubt, empty the magazine. |
Maaku
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Posted - 2007.08.20 19:30:00 -
[12]
Maybe buff range instead of nerfing speed?
Eliminate or greatly increase the maximum targeting range (assuming that that is technically possible). New weapons with longer range but less tracking than current rails/artys/beams (or maybe T3 could be something like that), sensor boosters with more range boost and less scan res boost. Make a fleet sniper's effective range 225 or 250 or 300 (wherever balance lies). A fast ship can close, but he'd better keep that transversal up.
Bingo...old school snipers become doable without sacrificing those sexy speed ships.
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welsh wizard
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Posted - 2007.08.20 19:34:00 -
[13]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 20/08/2007 19:34:55
Originally by: Maaku
Maybe buff range instead of nerfing speed?
Eliminate or greatly increase the maximum targeting range (assuming that that is technically possible). New weapons with longer range but less tracking than current rails/artys/beams (or maybe T3 could be something like that), sensor boosters with more range boost and less scan res boost. Make a fleet sniper's effective range 225 or 250 or 300 (wherever balance lies). A fast ship can close, but he'd better keep that transversal up.
Bingo...old school snipers become doable without sacrificing those sexy speed ships.
This is an alternative way to do it but to my knowledge there are only 2 ships that can operate at 250km+ (Raven/Rokh) with a useable setup. It would mean lock range buffs across the board which would throw many other things out of balance.
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Tovarishch
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.20 19:42:00 -
[14]
I've been harping on the problem of missile velocity for a while in my thread in 'Features and Ideas' Forum. (Thread is located here.)
Between the low alpha and DPS of most Caldari railboats, and the hilarious concept of using missiles at range, Caldari have been nothing but Ravens (PVE) and Rokhs (PVP) for a long while now.
Unfortunately, I'm growing increasingly aware that the Devs don't seem to be interested in addressing these issues. But, hey... we have Heat. Right?
My crusade for faster missiles. |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.08.20 19:42:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Goumindong on 20/08/2007 19:44:05
The problem, if there is a problem, is threefold.
[*]Smaller ships are hit too easily be larger ships guns
[*]The combination of many different methods of increasing speeds have produced ridiculous top speeds
[*]It is too easy to circumvent battlefield manuvering by warping
The long and short of it is, in order to fix these you need to do a number of things.
[*]Nerf webs such that webbed frigates will still be missed by battleship guns.[they have drones for a reason]
[*]Increase the minimum warp distance from 150km to 300km.
[*]Introduce Cruiser and Battleship sized warp scramblers. High powergrid, higher cap use, longer scramble range.
[*]Make all speed bonuses stacking penalized. Move MWD/Ab speed bonus from the skirmish warfare command module to a mass reduction bonus.
[*]Boost max speed bonus of afterburners by 50%
At least, that is what i think.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.20 19:50:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 20/08/2007 19:44:05
The problem, if there is a problem, is threefold.
[*]Smaller ships are hit too easily be larger ships guns
[*]The combination of many different methods of increasing speeds have produced ridiculous top speeds
[*]It is too easy to circumvent battlefield manuvering by warping
The long and short of it is, in order to fix these you need to do a number of things.
[*]Nerf webs such that webbed frigates will still be missed by battleship guns.[they have drones for a reason]
[*]Increase the minimum warp distance from 150km to 300km.
[*]Introduce Cruiser and Battleship sized warp scramblers. High powergrid, higher cap use, longer scramble range.
[*]Make all speed bonuses stacking penalized. Move MWD/Ab speed bonus from the skirmish warfare command module to a mass reduction bonus.
[*]Boost max speed bonus of afterburners by 50%
At least, that is what i think.
On general I agree, just still think MWD need some sort of reduction. FAction and deadspace MWD result in stupid speed boosts. If things were limited to only 500% would be not so bad, but 700-800% is plain WRONG.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.08.20 19:53:00 -
[17]
i remember back in 1943 we used to walk in 10 foot high snowsqualls to get to school and when we got there they beat us with a hard stick for shivering
____ __ ________
_sig below_
devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
_lies above_
CCP Morpheus was here 
Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.20 20:06:00 -
[18]
I have to agree 100% with Welsh on this.
We have had a lot of boosts to speed. Inertia stabs, a whole slew of rigs, heat. It's trivialized distance to an extent where ships that rely on distance for defense are much less useful. Speed can easily negate the dps of almost all missiles, even fired from ships with a velocity bonus. It has minimized strategic placement on the battlefield, not only for snipers but also for mid-range fighters. Why take anything other than close range + dps when you can close the distance in a matter of seconds? Not to mention speed allows you to get escape from almost any fight at will. There is no commitment to a fight.
I agree with the guy who suggested that speed mods affect the *BASE* speed of a ship. Matari get a bigger boost than any other race while reducing overall speeds back to something more sane and better for gameplay overall.
Nyxus
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships. |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.20 20:15:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Nyxus
I have to agree 100% with Welsh on this.
We have had a lot of boosts to speed. Inertia stabs, a whole slew of rigs, heat. It's trivialized distance to an extent where ships that rely on distance for defense are much less useful. Speed can easily negate the dps of almost all missiles, even fired from ships with a velocity bonus. It has minimized strategic placement on the battlefield, not only for snipers but also for mid-range fighters. Why take anything other than close range + dps when you can close the distance in a matter of seconds? Not to mention speed allows you to get escape from almost any fight at will. There is no commitment to a fight.
I agree with the guy who suggested that speed mods affect the *BASE* speed of a ship. Matari get a bigger boost than any other race while reducing overall speeds back to something more sane and better for gameplay overall.
Nyxus
The issue is, affecting base speed would demand speed mods to work different form all other mods in game. That is less likely to be implemented since its not simple balance people work.
Also woudld not change balance on matari vs other races.
We need that MWD become a non mandatori module! If you expect every battleship to be able to reach 1km/s then for sure you will put a lot more speed on your speed tank.
AB are currently useless, since a frigate with AB will be catch by a BS with MD that will reach for it in seconds and web it.
The speed mods like nano and overdrive are ok when used with an AF, nothing uber there.
The failed module is the MWD!!! Its the source of all evil. Nerf it.. for god sake and we will have far more enjoyable PVP.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
welsh wizard
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.08.20 20:22:00 -
[20]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 20/08/2007 20:22:02
I see your point Kagura but this thread is about discussing the way speed combined with large quantities of hitpoints affects the way we play.
I'm not interested in nerfing any particular module even if it may go someway to rectifying the 'problem' (if there is one as Goumindong said).
The nerf threads come later. :P
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.20 20:33:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Welsh
The nerf threads come later. :P
This is Eve O, where the nerf threads come way before we actually analyze the problem to find out if it even exists, or by how much.
Next thing you'll tell me is that you are supposed to put the horse ahead of the cart, and everyone knows it's done the other way around.
 Nyxus
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships. |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.20 20:34:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Nyxus
Originally by: Welsh
The nerf threads come later. :P
This is Eve O, where the nerf threads come way before we actually analyze the problem to find out if it even exists, or by how much.
Next thing you'll tell me is that you are supposed to put the horse ahead of the cart, and everyone knows it's done the other way around.
No, that's all wrong! Before you can do either of those you have to kill the horse and then strike it repeatedly.
------------
Whiners - Unite!
Tarminic - 26 Million SP in Forum Warfare. |
River Clear
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Posted - 2007.08.20 20:38:00 -
[23]
Edited by: River Clear on 20/08/2007 20:38:11
is that rose byrne in your sig welshie ???
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.08.20 20:39:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/08/2007 20:39:59
Originally by: Tarminic
Before you can do either of those you have to kill the horse and then strike it repeatedly.
Where is that sig with how the dead horse has been turned into puree...I need it. 
This is a good topic though, ill try not to derail it. 
---
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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Jem'imah
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Posted - 2007.08.20 20:42:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Jem''imah on 20/08/2007 20:41:58
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welsh wizard
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.08.20 20:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: River Clear
Edited by: River Clear on 20/08/2007 20:38:11
is that rose byrne in your sig welshie ???
It is!
Marvelous isn't she?
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.20 21:57:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Nyxus
I have to agree 100% with Welsh on this.
We have had a lot of boosts to speed. Inertia stabs, a whole slew of rigs, heat. It's trivialized distance to an extent where ships that rely on distance for defense are much less useful. Speed can easily negate the dps of almost all missiles, even fired from ships with a velocity bonus. It has minimized strategic placement on the battlefield, not only for snipers but also for mid-range fighters. Why take anything other than close range + dps when you can close the distance in a matter of seconds? Not to mention speed allows you to get escape from almost any fight at will. There is no commitment to a fight.
signed!
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Di Jiensai
Gallente
Domination.
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Posted - 2007.08.20 22:07:00 -
[28]
I agree. Some very good points came up here.
All speedy ships use MWD. i think reducing the bonus on that would be a very good idea. it will hit everyone equally. Boosting AB wouldnt be a good idea i think. doesnt realy help with the too fast ships. so, just tune down MWD to 0.5-0.75 and see how it works.
Another point here i like is the only one engine mod of each kind per ship. or at least put some serious stacking penalty in place.
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ThaMa Gebir
Gallente
Raddick Explorations
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.08.20 23:25:00 -
[29]
Edited by: ThaMa Gebir on 20/08/2007 23:25:46
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 20/08/2007 19:44:05
The problem, if there is a problem, is threefold.
[*]Smaller ships are hit too easily be larger ships guns
[*]The combination of many different methods of increasing speeds have produced ridiculous top speeds
[*]It is too easy to circumvent battlefield manuvering by warping
The long and short of it is, in order to fix these you need to do a number of things.
[*]Nerf webs such that webbed frigates will still be missed by battleship guns.[they have drones for a reason]
[*]Increase the minimum warp distance from 150km to 300km.
[*]Introduce Cruiser and Battleship sized warp scramblers. High powergrid, higher cap use, longer scramble range.
[*]Make all speed bonuses stacking penalized. Move MWD/Ab speed bonus from the skirmish warfare command module to a mass reduction bonus.
[*]Boost max speed bonus of afterburners by 50%
At least, that is what i think.
On general I agree, just still think MWD need some sort of reduction. FAction and deadspace MWD result in stupid speed boosts. If things were limited to only 500% would be not so bad, but 700-800% is plain WRONG.
Wrong, well Ok I can understand where you are coming from, but bugger man bs's should not get to that speed, same for cruisers, perhaps. Interceptors and frigates yes, they need that speed. however I believe battleships need to get to their top speed faster, like reduce the weight addition AND top speed mod you can get out of it. Sound fair?
On another note I feel that it is high time we had different sized warp scramblers with the right type of powergrid needs etc. Possibly the same with webs... Possibly...
----------------------------
Confirmed heaviest member of RDEX........
Hah, no more hijacks here. |
Gripen
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.08.21 02:35:00 -
[30]
Wow. Quite surprising for me how many people here agree on the subject. I'm fine with the nanoships who devote most of their slots to be faster than other and be able to escape unwanted engagement but range should be an advantage. Right now if you have your gang at gate and some sniper battleship warps in 150km form the gate it will be tackled in less time than it takes him to warp out. I'd like to see base MWD bonus changed from 500% to 300% velocity.
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Belce
Caldari
ADAMA Corps
Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.21 03:34:00 -
[31]
Maybe make webs work better on ships with larger signatures. Light scout drone is judged as one and as your size increases the effectiveness of the web improves. Paint the target and up it goes.
Truth is Truth |
Wrayeth
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.08.21 03:41:00 -
[32]
I agree wholeheartedly with the original poster.
Originally by: Gripen
Wow. Quite surprising for me how many people here agree on the subject. I'm fine with the nanoships who devote most of their slots to be faster than other and be able to escape unwanted engagement but range should be an advantage. Right now if you have your gang at gate and some sniper battleship warps in 150km form the gate it will be tackled in less time than it takes him to warp out. I'd like to see base MWD bonus changed from 500% to 300% velocity.
I also agree with this, and I fly Minmatar.
-Wrayeth
n00b Extraordinaire
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
Adam C
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.08.21 05:17:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Adam C on 21/08/2007 05:20:58
Originally by: welsh wizard
I dumped my Ferox 18 months ago.
Lies! uve flown it since.
Originally by: welsh wizard
Range, speed, hitpoints and the way combat has evolved.
In my perspective it boils down to player combat environments & player psyche
Lets list them; -
space bodies
* Celestial objects; star gates/ planets/stations [npc/player controlled]/ deep space.
* PVE elements; complexes/ agent missions/ escalation points.
* Sovereignty warfare; Player owned Structures
player and group(s) motivations
- isk
- power & control
- risk and reward
tactics & factors
* speed
* tank
* range
* electronic war fare
* warp disruption bubbles
- logistics
- supplies
strategies
- skirmish warfare
- baiting
- capital warfare
- fleet fighting
Now I havent even touched player psyche lets talk basics on fight or flight
fight or flight basically boils down to fun and stress. How they differ; -
fight
- risk
- time
- willingness
- organisational skills
flight
* outnumbered
* server performance
* real life factors
* time
* unorganision i.e. chaos
* logistical superiority
So thats basically my perspective on PVP factors today. More player based factors instead of server/client rule environments that's a hole other post, baby!
I think personally Welshies post means speed or tank? What makes a person or group choose which, or. Whats more fun.
I've down a little off from Welshies initial sentiment.
god, i feel like james 315 now
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Valharu
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Posted - 2007.08.21 05:34:00 -
[34]
I don't understand the logic in MWDs not being knocked out by Scrams and Bubbles, the are warp generaters after all, they should be knocked out while they are under that effect.
It would give a tactical reason why ABs could be used.
I think there are many different ways Speed can be balanced, from letting MWDs get scrambled, to not letting Nanos and other mods work with MWDS, only ABs and I agree, ABs do need a 50% increase.
But lets not forget in all this Acceleration is also a factor, I think some ship class's accelrate WAY to fast to reach top end. Even my BS with a MWD takes a few cycles to reach top speed. But Interceptors can reach max speed in a blink and Cruisers in two blinks.
But there is a secondary issue I think in all this. IF we can get Speed REBALANCED, it will effect some ships like Interceptors who rely on it to not get killed right way. Ships in general are probably going to need a HP boost to deal with these changes. Personally, I think for a more of a slug match, Battlecruisers and up need 100% more Hit Points and Cruisers and down need 200% more Hit Points.
So if these changes are done, people will need to think what effect it will have on other areas of the game. If speed is reduced enough, Webbers may need to be looked at to.
Food for thought.
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Igualmentedos
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Posted - 2007.08.21 06:23:00 -
[35]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Edited by: welsh wizard on 20/08/2007 19:07:55
So I was busy whining away in one of the many "boost Caldari!" threads... Most of them focus on the lack of damage from Caldari hybrid platforms. It's true they need more turrets, pretty much everyone agrees on this but I don't believe its the crux of the problem.
The real problem is the effective nerfing of a range advantage due to the rapid proliferation of insanely fast ships for relatively little isk. To a lesser extent the hitpoint buff has also contributed to the problem as a whole because sniper ships in small numbers are often unable to reach a desirable damage output in the timeframe required.
It got me reminiscing, I remember when a lone sniping battleship was considered a threat at 200km. These days we just laugh at the prospect of a fool silly enough to sit alone at 200km in his Megathron. What happened to this style of combat? Where did it go?
It doesn't happen anymore because 200km is a very small distance in post 'need for speed/hitpoint buff' Eve-Online. It's basically globalization on an Eve scale. The universe is a hell of a lot smaller since the introduction of capital ships (thats another discussion though). More importantly the strategical importance of the 250km radius around a fixed object (gate/station/even capital ship) has been diluted.
As more and more people fly 10km/s+ ships the range advantage has effectively shrunk so far that we're playing a different game today than the one we used to play a year ago. We don't use warp in points on enemy fleets anymore (very rarely anyway), we just fly one of our very fast ships at them and in under 20 seconds we have have nullified the range advantage.
I think most people are ignoring this and simpily blaming the tools we are given to fight with instead. The more I think about it the more I miss the old tactical grid warfare. It was complex and you had to rely on covert pilots to lock down an enemy fleet. This new style of warfare is also chiefly responsible for low damage railboats becoming largely undesirable.
Discuss...
So sad, but so true. Caldari's much needed buff seems to be ignored by CCP. Almost every change has hurt caldari.
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Selnix
Gallente
Master Miners
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.21 06:35:00 -
[36]
I definitely agree that the damage of the Rokh and other Caldari snipers is sub-par, beyond being a bit capacitor-challenged. The Mega can somewhat make up for having only two damage types by having nice tracking and damage bonuses, but the Rokh is just a ship that can shoot a long way off.
That enemy HACs can close on a sniper group so fast that aligning back out and warping off just doesn't happen fast enough is insane. That even the Ishtar can close 200km in very short order is even worse. Either MWDs need their speed modifier decreased drastically or sniping range needs to be pushed out beyond 300km.
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Naskaya
Elegance
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.08.21 07:05:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Naskaya on 21/08/2007 07:06:03
A lone sniping battleship still manages to destroy some frigs and beginner's cruisers.
It should not be able to destroy other things without taking a risk, in one shot.
A pack of sniping battleships is still a very dangerous foe.
The sole problem to me is AB module. The starter module could give a bonus of 150% instead. With best modules giving around 200%, you should see some frigs using them, avoiding due to a low signature, turret and missiles damages.
I love speed tanking, it's really an alternative to 'classic' tanking, now.
And no, it's not overpowered.
If you want to be protected from fast ships, bring some huginn and rapier and watch vagabonds and nano-bs die. You can bring some named webifier, too, for range.
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Dukath
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.21 08:07:00 -
[38]
While I agree with the problem I still do not think a simple speed nerf is sufficient. In the past i've suggested the following changes and I more and more believe they are necessary.
1) split the goddamn dual bonus modules
2) Make guns be effective from optimal-falloff to optimal+falloff in stead of 0 to optimal+falloff. (also decrease falloff quite a bit)
=> This will decrease the effectiveness of a blob enormously since 80% of the blob would be out of effective range of the primary target.
=> It would also allow for more strategic options, activating and deactivating tracking computers, change of ammo, moving towards targets to get in range in stead of simply aligning out. I believe this would be a much more anti blob measure than any titan, bomb or other silly measure. On the other hand smaller gangs will be less affected by this since they are generally more manouverable and thus can easier move into good range.
=>also it reduces the silly drawback of short range battleships vs long range battleships. While a blasterthron in theory has a higher DPS in practise it is a lot smaller than a railthron because it has to move from one target to the next while it can't shoot. The railthron can simply keep shooting
3) Add a 30 second delay when warping to a player. Warping to bookmarks or celestial objects is fast since its programmed in the board computer, warping to a ship would need calculations on the spot and take 30 seconds (silly RP reason). This would give the long range ships a bit of time to kill the fast ceptors. On the other hand it would not affect cloaked position ship since there you have plenty of time.
(I'll skip whining about instajumps/warp to 0 as a very bad introduction to eve since its not fully relevant in this case)
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Markus Aurelian
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Posted - 2007.08.21 08:36:00 -
[39]
this also puts another race in the dumpster. amarr have those megapulses with nice range, yet are too slow and cap dependent, at least at the battleship level (i.e. can rarely afford to soak that -25% cap size penalty from mwd...combined with their large bulk and mass) to be able to stay at their optimal ranges.
i was going to go into a more detailed rant, but im too tired and the beers are dragging me to the bed. in summation
1. nerf speed
2. boost amarr+caldari
3.????
4. Profit!!!!
Meatwad FTW |
Victor Forge
Amarr
|
Posted - 2007.08.21 08:42:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Gort
I have to agree with the Op. I miss the days when a single skillful sniper at range might be a significant issue for the pilot of a support ship.
Gort
If sniping was THE way to combat in Eve would be an extremly boring game since that would take out a huge part of the game. Why even bother with Electronic Warfare? Sniping is already and probably always been the best way to do missions and killing rats. Other methods wouldn¦t even be considered if it was as effective in pvp as it is in pve.
If you are not chosing to be Caldari you will have though start but it will pay off later on when one has progressed beyond the stage of doing just missions and killing rats.
If Caldari want to be better in pvp they must give up something that makes them good in pve, or we will have to rename the game to "Caldari-online".
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari
Free Traders
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Posted - 2007.08.21 09:22:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 20/08/2007 19:44:05
The problem, if there is a problem, is threefold.
[*]Smaller ships are hit too easily be larger ships guns
[*]The combination of many different methods of increasing speeds have produced ridiculous top speeds
[*]It is too easy to circumvent battlefield manuvering by warping
The long and short of it is, in order to fix these you need to do a number of things.
[*]Nerf webs such that webbed frigates will still be missed by battleship guns.[they have drones for a reason]
[*]Increase the minimum warp distance from 150km to 300km.
[*]Introduce Cruiser and Battleship sized warp scramblers. High powergrid, higher cap use, longer scramble range.
[*]Make all speed bonuses stacking penalized. Move MWD/Ab speed bonus from the skirmish warfare command module to a mass reduction bonus.
[*]Boost max speed bonus of afterburners by 50%
At least, that is what i think.
I can only agree here.
OD, NANO, ISTAB = only one can be fited (already suggested)
I once suggested that sig res on guns would affect what sized target can be tracked. If target < sig res, not able to track at all (same with missiles). That way target painters become very usefull again.
Originally by: JP Beauregard
The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls.... 
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.08.21 09:46:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Pan Crastus on 21/08/2007 09:50:58
Edited by: Pan Crastus on 21/08/2007 09:49:09
I would tend to support a nerf to MWD boost (e.g. down to 250% or so), but for the sake of realism ... (yes, I know we're all swimming in water not space etc. etc. :-P) I would prefer simply a MASSIVE agility/inertia penalty when MWD is on so that it can be used to cover long distances quickly, but not to orbit a target while having it tackled.
Those 20k vagabonds (with all implants, claymore ...) aren't going away and TBH the T2 non-implant vagas at 5-6k should not be nerfed that much (at 2-3k they're basically useless, a few volleys of cruise missiles / heavies and they're dead) but it's no problem if they can't tackle a sniper in 10s and keep him tackled forever, but can still run away at a high speed.
The idea is to pulse your MWD and be able to move X Km in a straight line more or less (X = 100 Km or so for a inty/vaga), but it will take a lot of piloting skill to get close to your target. Then you'll need to turn off MWD and enter orbit at impulse speed. Those 20k vagas will simply overshoot and land 100 Km behind their target ...
this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
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Eben Rochelle
Gallente
Free Mercenaries Union
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.21 09:53:00 -
[43]
There seems to be a worrying trend to decry changes in Eve. the game has been continuously changing/evolving since day 1, however over the past year and a half rather than welcoming change and a fresh style of play people are becoming more obsessed with attaining some sort of status quo where no new tactics are evolved and the game stagnates.
I always welome a patch or a change because it adds a different dimension to the game and stops me getting bored, plus it forces people to adapt and encourages the large dose of darwinism that makes Eve the best game i have ever played.
I hate to be one of these ****s who throws up the adapt or die argument but without these changes the game would die out. numbers would drop steadily as more and more vets became jaded.
the current speed fetish is wil be replaced by something else, and tbh sniping hs had its day, it was never a particularly inventive tactic and for the most part wasnt exactly fun. warp to cov ops, lock primary, pew pew rinse and repeat does not a fun combat make. i find that the majority of players prefer small gang combat because of the greater range of strategies and tactics they can employ and the greater choice of ships.
As for the hitpoint increase, not so long ago the cries were for longer combat because we were all getting instapopped by snipers =D
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SwindonBadger
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.08.21 10:01:00 -
[44]
However ever it gets nerfed/looked we also need a target speed
top speed on inty + snakes and gang bonus (command ship) 11 kps
top speed on inty + snakes 9 kps
top speed on inty (just top mods) 7 kps
at 11 kps ur pritty safe and u need ur gang buddy in sight, if u turn wrong u will still get hit (unlike 20 + kps) and the difference for inty v inty v sabre v vagga will be allot more personal/fun and costly to eek out the extra few kps not 10+kps.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.21 10:03:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Eben Rochelle
and tbh sniping hs had its day, it was never a particularly inventive tactic and for the most part wasnt exactly fun.
its even less fun if a big part of your ships are dedicated snipers!
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ry ry
StateCorp
The State
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Posted - 2007.08.21 10:09:00 -
[46]
Edited by: ry ry on 21/08/2007 10:13:21
I don't think nerfing MWD would help. stick a mwd + speed mods on a stabber and it goes, what? 3k? that's not a speed tank.
Clearly, the problem is that by stacking the same bonus over and over with snakes, faction gear, boosters etc. rather than the speedboost provided by a MWD. You can reach silly multipliers.
Back when i used to play WoW i had a lovely warlock, and i spent ages farming all the damage multiplier gear. In the end i could oneshot most non-epic'd chatarcters if i scored a crit. it was fun, i got lots of pvp rank, but it wasn't balanced. I stopped playing years ago but apparently blizzard's solution was a cap on critical damage from locks. well, that and nerfing them back to being as crap as they were before.
Perhaps just enforce a maximum speed a ship is capable of withstanding without damaging itself proportional to mass or something. then you wont see any more 45k stilettos, but you won't nerf the crap out MWDs on larger ships that don't go stupidly fast in the first place.
and anybody who wants to bring back the nanophoons and 200km sniper BS solopwnmobiles are daft.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.08.21 10:10:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Valharu
I don't understand the logic in MWDs not being knocked out by Scrams and Bubbles, the are warp generaters after all, they should be knocked out while they are under that effect.
It would give a tactical reason why ABs could be used.
I think there are many different ways Speed can be balanced, from letting MWDs get scrambled, to not letting Nanos and other mods work with MWDS, only ABs and I agree, ABs do need a 50% increase.
But lets not forget in all this Acceleration is also a factor, I think some ship class's accelrate WAY to fast to reach top end. Even my BS with a MWD takes a few cycles to reach top speed. But Interceptors can reach max speed in a blink and Cruisers in two blinks.
But there is a secondary issue I think in all this. IF we can get Speed REBALANCED, it will effect some ships like Interceptors who rely on it to not get killed right way. Ships in general are probably going to need a HP boost to deal with these changes. Personally, I think for a more of a slug match, Battlecruisers and up need 100% more Hit Points and Cruisers and down need 200% more Hit Points.
So if these changes are done, people will need to think what effect it will have on other areas of the game. If speed is reduced enough, Webbers may need to be looked at to.
Food for thought.
while your initial idea is nice
oh god please no more hp boosts
____ __ ________
_sig below_
devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
_lies above_
CCP Morpheus was here
Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn |
SiJira
|
Posted - 2007.08.21 10:12:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Naskaya
Edited by: Naskaya on 21/08/2007 07:06:03
A lone sniping battleship still manages to destroy some frigs and beginner's cruisers.
It should not be able to destroy other things without taking a risk, in one shot.
A pack of sniping battleships is still a very dangerous foe.
have you looked up the sword snipe or sniper lately?
a pack of snipers is almost like saying a pack of nuclear bombers and yet it isnt because their range is not enough
targetting being shorter than range is a big issue
____ __ ________
_sig below_
devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
_lies above_
CCP Morpheus was here
Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn |
Pan Crastus
|
Posted - 2007.08.21 10:19:00 -
[49]
Originally by: SiJira
targetting being shorter than range is a big issue
I doubt that they will ever change the targeting cap. Even if they made grids larger (at the cost of a performance hit ... and as we all know we have no performance issues, right? :-P) you'd still hit grid boundaries more often and have all kinds of weird effects. "Grid tanking" anyone? :-/
this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.21 11:10:00 -
[50]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Edited by: welsh wizard on 20/08/2007 20:24:43
I see your point Kagura but this thread is about discussing the way speed combined with large quantities of hitpoints affects the way we play.
I'm not interested in discussing the nerf of any particular module even if it may go someway to rectifying the 'problem' (if there is one as Goumindong said).
The nerf threads come later. :P
I am not focuse on the MWD as a nerf target, but in the fact that Every ship nowadays is capable of very high speeds. And this is all inside the topic. RAnge and positioning is irrelevant when all BS can reach 1km/s. And when tacklers can reach 12 km/s and get to you in 4 seconds.
This is way wrong. Have screwed the "way of fight". I would liek something so that only a few ships in a fight were configures to speed, and that SPEED meant somethign like 4-6 km/s for ceptors. Not 10-12 km/s
I am trying to point that the problem is not simply all ships nanoed, but all ships fitting fur huge speed burts. THAT is the thing that nullify the range and positioning, and makes the really speed ships to put even more speed focus and decide that they need to go 10 km/s. Its a snow ball rolling down hill.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.08.21 11:16:00 -
[51]
Originally by: ry ry
Edited by: ry ry on 21/08/2007 10:13:21
I don't think nerfing MWD would help. stick a mwd + speed mods on a stabber and it goes, what? 3k? that's not a speed tank.
Clearly, the problem is that by stacking the same bonus over and over with snakes, faction gear, boosters etc. rather than the speedboost provided by a MWD. You can reach silly multipliers.
Back when i used to play WoW i had a lovely warlock, and i spent ages farming all the damage multiplier gear. In the end i could oneshot most non-epic'd chatarcters if i scored a crit. it was fun, i got lots of pvp rank, but it wasn't balanced. I stopped playing years ago but apparently blizzard's solution was a cap on critical damage from locks. well, that and nerfing them back to being as crap as they were before.
Perhaps just enforce a maximum speed a ship is capable of withstanding without damaging itself proportional to mass or something. then you wont see any more 45k stilettos, but you won't nerf the crap out MWDs on larger ships that don't go stupidly fast in the first place.
and anybody who wants to bring back the nanophoons and 200km sniper BS solopwnmobiles are daft.
the issue is not simply speed tanks!
But the fact that everyone beign able of quite high speeds, make range and positioning irrelevant.
Why do you think ammar sucks?
Now imagine a game with no MWD, you may be SURE Ammar would POWN ecause of their superior mid range power.
As is now, range is pretty irrelevant.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.21 11:26:00 -
[52]
I'm of the opinion that no ship should be invulnerable simply by being a long way away, as it was yesteryear. Anyone who could fit a decent turret sniping set up and could sit 200km away was invincible from all. He either managed to pop the enemy, or leisurely aligned and warped as the too-tough target creeped it's way towards him. Unless the sniper was terminally stupid or incredibly unlucky, theres almost no way of actually getting a confirmed kill (the old cloaked tackler was the only real way, and due to the general low survivability of a cloaking tackler, it wasn't a tricky tactic to counter).
Sniping is still perfectly plausible these days, but not as a solo-wtfpwn tactic. In a fleet, it's entirely possible to have a group of tacklers sat on the target holding them still while snipers snipe away from 200km. A Caldari hybrid-sniper is still a perfectly sensible choice for fleet engagements (or would be if their damage was balanced a little better), and fleet battles still tend to be won by the sniper fleets, not the "unbeatable blaster boats"...
The advent of more and more variable counters to what is imo a very tedious tactic is nothing but a good thing...
--------
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ry ry
StateCorp
The State
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Posted - 2007.08.21 11:48:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
But the fact that everyone beign able of quite high speeds, make range and positioning irrelevant.
on the contrary, it makes it vitally important.
it's no longer just a case of setting up your camp, getting everybody to their optimal and waiting until something strolls into the designated killzone, now you need a contingency for a huginn managing to get to one of your snipers, or for the enemy fleet to move out of your range, rather than sitting there waiting to be killed.
i like the manuverability this affords. my only problem with speed is the sheer amount of speed some ships can reach - they're effectively outclassing the tools available to deal with them. if you can't catch or hit a ship the only option is to leg it, and that's a shame.
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Sir Scorpion
Black Banners
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Posted - 2007.08.21 11:57:00 -
[54]
To make lone snipers useful its quite simple, located damage, so basically the lone sniper will hang at 200 and shoot of his first round and kill off the MWD, or guns or whatever. Then he may have his way with the target.
This should only be limited to the sniper calls of each weapon, so rails beams and artilleries, and it will be in that order, since rails have the lowest dps and alpha, thy will have the best chance of a hit ôand yes I say it must be luck + normal gunnery restrictionsö beams will be the middle ground and artilleries will have the lower chance.
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SiJira
|
Posted - 2007.08.21 12:01:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: SiJira
targetting being shorter than range is a big issue
I doubt that they will ever change the targeting cap. Even if they made grids larger (at the cost of a performance hit ... and as we all know we have no performance issues, right? :-P) you'd still hit grid boundaries more often and have all kinds of weird effects. "Grid tanking" anyone? :-/
it will have to be changed with the whole engine remake
____ __ ________
_sig below_
devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
_lies above_
CCP Morpheus was here
Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.08.21 12:40:00 -
[56]
Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
But the fact that everyone beign able of quite high speeds, make range and positioning irrelevant.
on the contrary, it makes it vitally important.
it's no longer just a case of setting up your camp, getting everybody to their optimal and waiting until something strolls into the designated killzone, now you need a contingency for a huginn managing to get to one of your snipers, or for the enemy fleet to move out of your range, rather than sitting there waiting to be killed.
i like the manuverability this affords. my only problem with speed is the sheer amount of speed some ships can reach - they're effectively outclassing the tools available to deal with them. if you can't catch or hit a ship the only option is to leg it, and that's a shame.
You are thinkign snipers only when i speak range. That is not the case.
Thing an Ammar BS, at 30 km form another BS. It would be far superior at this range with Pulse lasers. But any minmatar or Gallente BS will be at 3 km from him in half minute. That screw completely the range and relative positioning. Also an ceptor can be there in 3 seconds, and web him!!! That is beyond ridiculous.
An engagement moving form medium range to close range should take far longer
Also currently 90% of ships i see crossing hostile borders are nanoships or cloakers. That makes combat very very hard to achieve and all focused on bubbles! When was last time you saw a lone of pair of battleships roam in enemy territory? Or even BCs?
being inside or outside Scramble range is a matter of 2 seconds now! That summed to an EASILY achievable lag of 2-3 seconds in any gang combat and the positioning and range becomes irrelevant. Only bubbles matter!
Range and positioning is irrelevant today, because between close and medium range or vice versa it can change in a blink of eye, far before the server can respond to your commands.
If ceptors are worried of their only tank.. ok. Drop speed also drop tracking of all guns and missile explosion velocity.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.08.21 13:02:00 -
[57]
I never liked MWD's on other than frigate sized ships. They could nerf MWD 10mn and 100mn sizes back to hell!
I use AB! It's way more cap effencient!
CCP giving "oomph" to Amarr's: Nerffing most of ships via Khanid Mk2. Enjoy your "oomphffs" people! :rolleyes:
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.21 13:37:00 -
[58]
Please keep this discussion alive!
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2007.08.21 13:54:00 -
[59]
Originally by: SwindonBadger
However ever it gets nerfed/looked we also need a target speed
top speed on inty + snakes and gang bonus (command ship) 11 kps
top speed on inty + snakes 9 kps
top speed on inty (just top mods) 7 kps
at 11 kps ur pritty safe and u need ur gang buddy in sight, if u turn wrong u will still get hit (unlike 20 + kps) and the difference for inty v inty v sabre v vagga will be allot more personal/fun and costly to eek out the extra few kps not 10+kps.
If that's the top overloaded MWD speed I would agree. However, for sustained speeds I believe 5-6km/sec for the fastest setups is the range we should be looking at:
Warrior II's top out at 6.3km/sec,
Hobgoblin II's hit, at most, 4.2km/sec,
Precision light missiles 5.6km/sec with a 4.5km/sec explosion velocity (8.4km/sec on two specialised ships).
These are all anti-'small fast ship' weapons that currently can be outpaced by even destroyer and cruiser sized platforms. Sustained possible frigate-hull speeds of 5-6km/sec with 7.5-9km/sec temp overloading would allow temporary kiting of light drones/missiles.
----------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.08.21 14:13:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: SwindonBadger
However ever it gets nerfed/looked we also need a target speed
top speed on inty + snakes and gang bonus (command ship) 11 kps
top speed on inty + snakes 9 kps
top speed on inty (just top mods) 7 kps
at 11 kps ur pritty safe and u need ur gang buddy in sight, if u turn wrong u will still get hit (unlike 20 + kps) and the difference for inty v inty v sabre v vagga will be allot more personal/fun and costly to eek out the extra few kps not 10+kps.
If that's the top overloaded MWD speed I would agree. However, for sustained speeds I believe 5-6km/sec for the fastest setups is the range we should be looking at:
Warrior II's top out at 6.3km/sec,
Hobgoblin II's hit, at most, 4.2km/sec,
Precision light missiles 5.6km/sec with a 4.5km/sec explosion velocity (8.4km/sec on two specialised ships).
These are all anti-'small fast ship' weapons that currently can be outpaced by even destroyer and cruiser sized platforms. Sustained possible frigate-hull speeds of 5-6km/sec with 7.5-9km/sec temp overloading would allow temporary kiting of light drones/missiles.
EXACLTY!!!
The speed limit should be around top skilled light drones and stil be hit by specialized light missiles.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Tom Gunn
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.08.21 14:23:00 -
[61]
Take off the max targetting range limit and let that be limited by your sensor boosts. Its not a technical problem since manned POS's can hit out to 500km+
Once thats removed, return T2 sniping ammo to the range bonus it had pre-nerf.
Sniping ships will then be able to engage at distances of 250-300km (maybe further for the rokh?)
This will indirectly nerf speed ships without annoying players again with another direct nano nerf.
Enough nerfing has already happened, though I really wouldn't add any more +speed multipliers to the game, there are plenty already available.
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Valharu
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Posted - 2007.08.21 16:02:00 -
[62]
Been reading alot here and it seems a few things stand out.
Top end speeds with MWD with Mods, Rigs and Implants are way to exstream.
Sub space speed is a tad to slow.
Acceleration way to fast on Crusiers and down with reguards to using MWDs.
Races ment to be fast a tad to slow to make it really matter in subspace.
If exstream speeds get reduced, Sniping may be return AS the only tactic to do.
Ships may not have enough hit points for Tankage to have any chance to deal with Snipers.
Right now, there is no real tactical advantage to using a Afterburner.
I think there should be some thought on restricting how things work.
Such as greater disabilities when using MWDs after a ship goes past a certain speck for it or restricting which mods work with Afterburners and which can work with MWDs and stacking pens, and Implants work with both.
I really don't see Nanos and other mods working with MWDs, they are a subspace factor.
Course a interesting idea might be you can't fire weapons while using a MWD, can't fight warping gate to gate, maybe you shouldnt beable to fire when MWD is active.
Just throwing out ideas here, alot of people have said some good stuff so just bring more ideas to the table here for people to think about.
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prathe
Minmatar
Omega Enterprises
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2007.08.21 16:43:00 -
[63]
some ships like dictors and vaga's and ceptors need the nano
but when you start seeing it like it is now it's just ridiculous but i guess it's just player taste some people like to run away from a fight others like to fight ....
.02
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.08.21 16:57:00 -
[64]
Originally by: prathe
some ships like dictors and vaga's and ceptors need the nano
but when you start seeing it like it is now it's just ridiculous but i guess it's just player taste some people like to run away from a fight others like to fight ....
.02
Even those ships don't need current speeds. A simple T2 fitted captor can reach 10 km/s now using overheat. Put snakes and a deadspace mwd and this goes to near 20km/s
NO ones should have speeds above 6-7 km/s
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Futher Bezluden
Minmatar
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.21 18:14:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 21/08/2007 18:16:14
Originally by: Gripen
Wow. Quite surprising for me how many people here agree on the subject. I'm fine with the nanoships who devote most of their slots to be faster than other and be able to escape unwanted engagement but range should be an advantage. Right now if you have your gang at gate and some sniper battleship warps in 150km form the gate it will be tackled in less time than it takes him to warp out. I'd like to see base MWD bonus changed from 500% to 300% velocity.
/ signed
Ceptors, Dictors, stabber/vaga as speed ships. CCP needs to decrease the ODJ and Aux thrust bonuses, decrease the affect of reduced mass on mwd velocity, and decrease snakes (less velocity, increased % to avoid customs). stabber/vaga are designed to move quick to bring ac's to bear, minmatar and highly vulnerable.
Change Myrm drone bay to 100m, no reason it should do the same drone damage as a battleship.
Change speed mod/rigs... dump the ninja-quick ishkur/ishtar and other droneboats as fast as vagabonds.
Don't change speed mod/rigs, just wait for nano-Khanid MKII ships.
Decrease Heavy Assault Missile Damage, with Khanid MKII ships getting bonuses for them the damage is too great.
THUKKER -Be Paranoid
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Zak Kingsman
A.W.M
Ka-Tet
|
Posted - 2007.08.21 18:33:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Zak Kingsman on 21/08/2007 18:38:02
hell no, sniper fights are boring, knife fights are fun. However fleet is still long range BS/ fit t2 guns or dont bother snooze fests. Combat is still too fast (in terms of time from engagement to time of kill) especially in fleet (partially due to the sizes of said fleets). There's not much tactical manuevering. And yes the old cat and mouse of warp in points and manuevering for warp in points was fun to a certain extent, but I'd like to see more manuevering during fleet fights.
I dont know if that's even possible with the eve we have now but I have a dream :)
Yeah ok, with some of the snakes and rigs it can get silly. This game used to be about logarithmic progression IE that level 5 skill is the same advantage over a level 4 as a level 4 is over a 3 but it took you twice as long as it took you to get to level 4.
T2 pretty much changed that, but by now t2 is older tech and specialization means that even relatively new to the game people can manage a t2 ship. They might not be able to manage the money for all the implants and rigs. I think implants and rigs need to be toned down so they give an edge not an iwin.
That said I still dislike sniper fights.
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.08.21 19:13:00 -
[67]
Why doesn't anyone like the idea to add a massive agility/inertia penalty when MWD is on, so that MWD can only be used to get the hell out and not to orbit a target?
:-/
this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.21 19:22:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Why doesn't anyone like the idea to add a massive agility/inertia penalty when MWD is on, so that MWD can only be used to get the hell out and not to orbit a target?
:-/
I think it's great, and teh mwd has one now. But increasing the penalty could be problematic in terms of bumping and inertia. 100mn MWD Zealot bumping anyone?
The more I think about it, the easiest thing to do is just put a hard cap on speed per ship. That way you can reach the cap via implants, mods, rigs, faction, whatever but intead of the result being wtfinvincible speed it just gives you more options on your ship.
Tops speeds should be limited by anti speed mods as someone pointed out. Light matari drones, precision missiles et. The problem I have now is that speeds are so high that the things meant to counter them simply don't work well, if at all.
Nyxus
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships. |
Valharu
|
Posted - 2007.08.21 21:27:00 -
[69]
Nyxus idea has merit, I would like to see a little more then that but I still like his idea.
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Julius Romanus
Free Space Development Cartel
|
Posted - 2007.08.22 03:57:00 -
[70]
And then there shall be no more Interceptors.
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Arenis Xemdal
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.08.22 04:23:00 -
[71]
I like how you put in a completely unrelated request for boosting Caldari, and said "pretty much everyone agrees to this" to avoid further discussion. Well I don't, and I can safely say anyone who does is wrong.
The premise of your post against speed is wrong, in my opinion, but the disgruntlement with super fast ships is valid. What I mean is..
The fastest ships in the game are still the fastest ships in the game (Interceptors), so you can't claim CCP have changed much there. If people are flying at 10km/s+ now with the help of special implants and rigs, they're not doing it nearly as cheaply as they were with dual-mwd or dual-ab setups. Remember the 8km/s Mallers? Remember how speed was the only valid form of defense for anything smaller than a Battleship? I don't miss the ganking, and I don't miss the need to fly at ridiculous speeds in every ship just to stay alive.
Range doesn't work as well in EVE because the difference between tech 2 and tech 1 ammo has been lowered. But before people were using tech 2 or even meta gear, 100km was considered long range. I would say over the evolution of EVE, what was considered long range before on all ships is now medium range. And 'long range' in general has doubled. Even if you nerfed speed massively, your nostalgic trip to old school covert ops grid-busting would be for naught. If ships aren't flying to you in 20 seconds, they're gonna scan you down in 20 seconds.
PS: Your "low damage railboats becoming largely undesirable" is another thing I would disagree with. Eagle, Vulture and Rokh all do well in fleets. What else is there? Harpy? AF suck for fleets in general, but if I had to pick one to use, that would be it.
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welsh wizard
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.08.22 09:12:00 -
[72]
While we're at it bring back the old probing! It was far more rewarding, I don't bother doing it these days because its so bloody easy (logic? no).
The majority disagree with your railboat assertion though. The Rokh is a good ship but thats because it has 8 guns. Lets face it, most of Caldari railboats just aren't in the same class as the other races ships of the same size/cost.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.08.22 11:03:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Arenis Xemdal
I like how you put in a completely unrelated request for boosting Caldari, and said "pretty much everyone agrees to this" to avoid further discussion. Well I don't, and I can safely say anyone who does is wrong.
The premise of your post against speed is wrong, in my opinion, but the disgruntlement with super fast ships is valid. What I mean is..
The fastest ships in the game are still the fastest ships in the game (Interceptors), so you can't claim CCP have changed much there. If people are flying at 10km/s+ now with the help of special implants and rigs, they're not doing it nearly as cheaply as they were with dual-mwd or dual-ab setups. Remember the 8km/s Mallers? Remember how speed was the only valid form of defense for anything smaller than a Battleship? I don't miss the ganking, and I don't miss the need to fly at ridiculous speeds in every ship just to stay alive.
Range doesn't work as well in EVE because the difference between tech 2 and tech 1 ammo has been lowered. But before people were using tech 2 or even meta gear, 100km was considered long range. I would say over the evolution of EVE, what was considered long range before on all ships is now medium range. And 'long range' in general has doubled. Even if you nerfed speed massively, your nostalgic trip to old school covert ops grid-busting would be for naught. If ships aren't flying to you in 20 seconds, they're gonna scan you down in 20 seconds.
PS: Your "low damage railboats becoming largely undesirable" is another thing I would disagree with. Eagle, Vulture and Rokh all do well in fleets. What else is there? Harpy? AF suck for fleets in general, but if I had to pick one to use, that would be it.
wrong, with simple t2 equipment a ceptor can reach 10km/s , because of stupid overheat. It cheaper than ever (comapred to the current income level of average PVPer)
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
KenDoll
|
Posted - 2007.08.22 11:47:00 -
[74]
you should change the title to "the way combat has de-evolved", mwd's have ruined all range advantages and are closer to being an i-win/engage and disengage at will device than a seriously thought out and needed mod, they are way to fast.
ever seen a faction mwd on an occator? hilarious stuff.
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Sylia
Minmatar
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2007.08.22 14:01:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
wrong, with simple t2 equipment a ceptor can reach 10km/s , because of stupid overheat. It cheaper than ever (comapred to the current income level of average PVPer)
How much tacklign can you do with a turned off scram after ur overheated mwd kilsl it?
stop lookign at the max and look at the sustainable (ie doesnt include overheating)
And spped tankign to the extrem it is now has evolved as its the best way to counter the borign old bubble blob ona a gate.
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SwindonBadger
0utbreak
|
Posted - 2007.08.22 14:03:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Sylia
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
wrong, with simple t2 equipment a ceptor can reach 10km/s , because of stupid overheat. It cheaper than ever (comapred to the current income level of average PVPer)
How much tacklign can you do with a turned off scram after ur overheated mwd kilsl it?
stop lookign at the max and look at the sustainable (ie doesnt include overheating)
And spped tankign to the extrem it is now has evolved as its the best way to counter the borign old bubble blob ona a gate.
I can safly say its very easy to overheat ur mods even at lev4 + ... it makes for a really intrest rest of battle being stuck at 800 mps with no scram web or mwd...
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.08.22 17:27:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Sylia
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
wrong, with simple t2 equipment a ceptor can reach 10km/s , because of stupid overheat. It cheaper than ever (comapred to the current income level of average PVPer)
How much tacklign can you do with a turned off scram after ur overheated mwd kilsl it?
stop lookign at the max and look at the sustainable (ie doesnt include overheating)
And spped tankign to the extrem it is now has evolved as its the best way to counter the borign old bubble blob ona a gate.
have you ever tried? A single cycle in overheat not rarelly will work without incidents, and the questionn is is IMPOSSIBLE to get a inti that overheats.. no weapon will hit it.
You think gate camp is boring? You have no idea how boring is to see that all ships crossing are inties that run 10km/s or cloakers.
Eve is a COMBAT game, its time for more combat and less running away!
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Death Kill
Caldari
direkte
|
Posted - 2007.08.22 17:41:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Crax McGee
Be nice. -Hango
i think people should still be able 2 go 8k in cruisers and stuff. but it should not be for the common man who has just put overdrives and polycarbons too his ship.
Thousands of players can afford snakes, I'm suprised someone have to tell you this
Caldari and proud |
Rhaegor Stormborn
|
Posted - 2007.08.22 17:42:00 -
[79]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Truth
I really don't have anything to add or discuss, you are correct 100%.
You can not lead nor win a war from the forums. |
Illyria Ambri
RennTech
|
Posted - 2007.08.22 19:02:00 -
[80]
Nerf MWD down a bit.
Leave T2 MWD drive alone but limit it to Intys and the 2-3 speed specific ships.
This allows you to use a MWD but not close the 200km gap in 10 seconds. You can still go damn fast.
Possible counters?
The more nano's or OD's you mount the less struture you have and as you MWD around and do turns.. your structure goes down due to hull stress.
You wanna speed tank that cruiser? fine.. but if you want to turn.. you gotta shut it off (how they would code this, I dunno)
MWDing with Nanos in a 5km orbit SHOULD rip your damn ship apart.. no questions.
MWD orbit w/o nanos or other "mass reducing" mods.. ok
But you get either MWD for speed or lighter materials for speed... put them both together and you got a ship that literally flys apart if you try anything other then flying straight.
The use of nano's and MWD's needs to be balanced with speed to cause structure damage due to hull stress from high speed manuvering.
------------
This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Here come the Drums!! - The Master |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.22 19:48:00 -
[81]
Thinking about this some more;
Speed should be more like resistance. The closer you get to the upper limit, the less return you get on your mods/implants/rigs. There is a reason why you can't get to 100% resistance and it should be the same for speed.
Max speeds should be the equitable to the counters of speed, ie Matari light drones, precision missiles, etc.
Nyxus
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships. |
Glach Duwat
|
Posted - 2007.08.22 20:17:00 -
[82]
Honestly, I think the current system is just fine, there is still a place in the world for snipers.
The difference is, you can't do it alone. But is that a problem?
Eve is not a solo game. It's designed around the gang and fleet warfare, and speed doesn't change that.
IF ANYTHING is done, it should be that the bigger the ship the slower it is, which is true in most cases, but when fitting an MWD on a frigate nerfs your ability to do anything but MicroWarp, than it's a problem. Frigates advantage is it's speed, but with cruisers and destroyer class vessels being able to hit 10k a second, your remove the advantage of a frigate.
Case and point, it is not ruining the game, it just changes the tactics, you want to stop ships from coming up on your ass fast? roll with someone else.
Two or three man gangs can make a great sniper/support gang.
And that's not hurting the game.
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N1fty
Amarr
Galactic Shipyards Inc
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2007.08.23 11:48:00 -
[83]
Edited by: N1fty on 23/08/2007 12:03:08
I remember when ships could fit two microwarpdrives until Exodus removed it. Speeds back then were insane and ever since we have been creeping back up.
We should be given more mods and implants to boost tracking / explosion velocity to compensate for speed tanking. Yes we have tracking computers, and a couple of implants for explosion velocity, but these really cannot compensate against a 10K/s+ ship. Even a 90% webber will only take it down to 1K/s and thats if you somehow get inside of 10k to 19k to use a faction or overheated web, and the only way to get in range is to have a faster speedtank than he does.
And it should not be the case where only one ship in the game is capable of taking on a speed setup. So to say "Fly with a Huginn" will mean everyone is either flying a speed ship or a huginn.
One interesting module I saw in the database is a module that increases the targets mass, I remember it had a range of 30k and I think it would work rather nicely against speed tanking ships. It doesnt stop speed tanking, it just gives people who dont speed tank a scissors to the speed tanks paper.
EDIT: With regards to mass, obviously a small ship with small mass will be effected less than a big ship with a big mass. In this way a frig will be much faster than a battleship when being effected by the mass device [let me see if I can find the stats...].
============================================
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.25 18:34:00 -
[84]
I was talking this over with a couple of friends.
Why not put in a drawback to speed? As your speed increases, so does you sig radius until going faster than say 5 or 6 km/s makes your sig rad be roughly the equivalent of a dread. This makes it less optimal to completely max your speed attributes.
It also gives a point to afterburners with a lesser sig penalty.
Nyxus
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships. |
Minmatar096773
|
Posted - 2007.08.31 10:18:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Nyxus
I was talking this over with a couple of friends.
Why not put in a drawback to speed? As your speed increases, so does you sig radius until going faster than say 5 or 6 km/s makes your sig rad be roughly the equivalent of a dread. This makes it less optimal to completely max your speed attributes.
It also gives a point to afterburners with a lesser sig penalty.
Nyxus
How does that make any sense?
|
Magazaki
|
Posted - 2007.08.31 14:23:00 -
[86]
What I would like to see and would make sense to me would be better afterburners and worse microwarpdrives, or better base speed same afterburners and worse microwarpdrives. There should be less difference between mwd/non-mwd speed imho...
Maybe (theoretic numbers)...
Change MWD from +500% -> +300-350% and lessen sigradius penalty accordingly (+300%/+350%)
Change AB from +100% -> +150%
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Cornucopian
Gallente
Dutch Omega
United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.31 14:37:00 -
[87]
I agree with some adjustment of the uberspeeds...
these days small gang PvP is just: ZOMGVAGAWEBSCRAMBOOM. with people having severe trouble locking the vaga in the first place.
-----------------------------------------------
"post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer."
Originally by: Royaldo
complete win by Cornucopian!
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ttrrwafsfamfjkasjf
|
Posted - 2007.08.31 14:51:00 -
[88]
Why can't people deal with it instead of asking for a nerf?
This thread is more useful for getting ideas for how to deal with speed maniacs.
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Gess
Novastorm Inc
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.31 15:05:00 -
[89]
How about when you're mwd-ing you can't lock targets or activate certain modules just like when you warp. After all you're microWARPdriving...
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dgsdfgasgasgsdfg
|
Posted - 2007.09.01 10:59:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Gess
How about when you're mwd-ing you can't lock targets or activate certain modules just like when you warp. After all you're microWARPdriving...
That can't possibly be a good idea.
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Magazaki
|
Posted - 2007.09.01 13:52:00 -
[91]
Originally by: ttrrwafsfamfjkasjf
Why can't people deal with it instead of asking for a nerf?
This thread is more useful for getting ideas for how to deal with speed maniacs.
Newsflash:
People ARE dealing with it. We're playing the same game here, and we're not even talking about sudden changes so that an "adapt or die" is appropriate. We are all playing in the same EVE that has these rules at the moments. And, I understand that you may find it hard to believe, but we all LOVE eve, and we are just discussing things about making it EVEN BETTER, not whining about how it sucks and similar bull****. At least I hope most of us agree.
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Riddick Valer
|
Posted - 2007.09.01 15:51:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Rid**** Valer on 01/09/2007 15:52:16
Why not change MWD and AB affects depending on ship class?
Frig Mods (t1)
AB= 150%
MWD= 500%
Crusier Mods (t1)
AB= 125%
MWD= 400%
BS Mods (t1)
AB=100%
MWD=300%
Faction and T2 would be redone to match these new t1 effects.
It helps spread apart the speeds of different ship classes. HACS are a bit slower, but still can be speed-tanked. BS have a harder time.
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Kazuma Saruwatari
|
Posted - 2007.09.01 16:03:00 -
[93]
speed = too fast nowadays. Needs looking at, and fast.
(pun not intended)
-
Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online |
Magazaki
|
Posted - 2007.09.02 00:32:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Rid**** Valer
Edited by: Rid**** Valer on 01/09/2007 15:52:16
Why not change MWD and AB affects depending on ship class?
Frig Mods (t1)
AB= 150%
MWD= 500%
Crusier Mods (t1)
AB= 125%
MWD= 400%
BS Mods (t1)
AB=100%
MWD=300%
Faction and T2 would be redone to match these new t1 effects.
It helps spread apart the speeds of different ship classes. HACS are a bit slower, but still can be speed-tanked. BS have a harder time.
maybe for the microowarpdrives, but the afterburners need overall boosting, not nerfing imho...
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Falbala
Gallente
Les Enfants de Gaia
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Posted - 2007.09.02 00:43:00 -
[95]
All MWDs are not the same, on Dominix you become powerless after 2 jumps if you use MWD100, with Vigil and MWD1 you never go powerless.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
|
Posted - 2007.09.02 01:54:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Laboratus
Edited by: Laboratus on 20/08/2007 18:55:40
I think part of the problem is the fact that speed tanks need insane speeds.
Generally tracking should be lowered so that a BS speed of 3k/s would be a viable speed tank.
Edit:
But yeah, you are right on most points.
The "old school" fleets are still viable, but sadly only in larger rokh fleets (ya, those are so common...)
Problem is not tracking. Problem is.. need to avoid missiles AND you must be way faster than that .. because you need to be much faster than enemy tacklers.
I really hate MWD. It makes eve an all or nothing game. Distance is irrelevant, speed >>>> everything. Who fits AB? almost no one why? because what is the point on 100% speed boost> When even if you are a fast frig with AB, you are Way slower than a BS with MWD? This is simply non-sense.
I reaaally think MWD base seepd boost should be reduced to 200%.
*joins this faction of the discussion*
and about pirate imps: switch them from slot 1-6 over to 5-10. they're not being bought for their attributes but for their hardwiring-like extras. they should replace hardwirings, not act in top of them.
if people can get extra attribs that way... sure, why not *shrug* +3 when you're at ~20 only means +15% more SP across the board (other way 'round: -13% training time)
-
putting the gist back into logistics |
Chavu
Ganja Labs
Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.09.02 06:06:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/08/2007 18:29:11
4 years ago you were happy to get 2% more damage, tanking or speed. Today, we have so many ways to add to a specific attribute (skills, modules, rigs, implants, gang bonuses) that it becomes way too much. It doesnt help that some implants, while expensive, give insane bonuses.
A nerf is hardly something that will be agreed on from people who have payed billions for their implants though.
I agree with this. Tech1 MWD on a stabber/vaga doesn't go very fast, but with polycarbons and tech 2 modules and hardwirings and snakes, you can go very, very fast.
This thread is really good, I fly nano-ships I guess, nano-phoon and vagabond. neither of these ships are overpowered in solo or a duo team. But for gangs, they are just insane, if you have ever seen a gang with: 5+ vagas, 5+ ishtars and 5+ recons, you wouldn't want to go near that. A gang of 15 BCs would be equally dangerous, but you might be able to take down a few of them with you, with nanoships, they just gtfo.
When they nerfed istabs I thought it would be great as speed would be nerfed for everyone but for specialized ships like the vagabond and decent (but not ungodly) speeds attainable on all other minmatar ships.
I like the idea of boosting Afterburners. When I first equipped an AB I didn't think it was working because in other games when you hit the afterburner, you go ZOOM. So ya, boost AB, nerf MWD, and give more minmatar ships speed bonuses. My main conern is that speed nerf will mean a huge minmatar nerf...speed is all the minmtar has got.
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General Apocalypse
Amarr
The Merchant Marines
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Posted - 2007.09.02 06:31:00 -
[98]
First BIG NO to any nerfs , nefs bring even more nerfs and boosts etc.
To be quite honest all ships in the game have something where they excel . And most of the cheaper ships fail in front of a more expensive one , woud you expect a WWI plane to stand up against a modern F-22 ? I'm not talking about tiemframe i'm talking about Isk . You get what you pay for.
The curent nerf fast ships topic came from the much praised NOS nerf , now anyone whidout a neut will be helpless against them .
Caldari problem is that they fail to pvp due to shield tank . But they have a superior tank if they are well fitted and whit good skils missailes can go to stupid speeds . Unfortunatly those [even those speeds are easy to avoid . The only boost that i agree on is for the railboats , they shoud get more turret points and have their launcher slots removed .
Originally by: CCP Morpheus
nerf ccp plz
Originally by: CCP Oveur
To the gankmobile!
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Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.09.02 07:27:00 -
[99]
I dont miss the gate snipers. They never got me, but they always seemed lame to me. 200km from a gate, up to speed and lined up to warp out seems more like the pvp quality of suicide ganking rather than actual play of the game.
Having said that.....
Long range tactics in battle getting a modest buff I have nothing against. Althought its probably not possible to buff one without buffing the other.
Play nice while you butcher each other.
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