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Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
272
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Posted - 2012.01.18 19:07:00 -
[31] - Quote
Yeah, I'm not sure what the CSM was smoking when they said "offensive" and "range bonus" at the same time.
Edit: Double DPS (5% Rof and 5% kinetic) bonuses. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
99
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Posted - 2012.01.18 19:34:00 -
[32] - Quote
They'd better cut off some grid and replace resistance bonus with shield boost amount one - in this case fugly things won't be overtanked that much. Regular overtanking with 2 LSEs will prolly still remain possible, but at least will get punished by wasting 1 ship bonus. 2008, CCP Zulu(park): "command ships are fine as is" 2011, CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" Nice progress, guys. |
Berendas
Clandestine Vector THE SPACE P0LICE
167
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Posted - 2012.01.18 19:42:00 -
[33] - Quote
Munio J Makeanen wrote:Disagree Drake is one of the only viable ships in the Caldari Line up
That statement is so laughably wrong. |
Hoskoal Ricks
Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.01.18 19:55:00 -
[34] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Edit: Double DPS (5% Rof and 5% kinetic) bonuses.
So basically, it'll be even better for gang blobs and marginally worse at pve. Op success. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
85
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Posted - 2012.01.18 20:38:00 -
[35] - Quote
Hoskoal Ricks wrote:Mfume Apocal wrote:Edit: Double DPS (5% Rof and 5% kinetic) bonuses. So basically, it'll be even better for gang blobs and marginally worse at pve. Op success.
Its only marginal in blobs.
Not to mention that more pew would enhance it in small gang rolls and it may see use over a cane. I can fly both, love the cane....I.HATE.being.stuck.in.a.drake. |
m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
90
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Posted - 2012.01.18 20:44:00 -
[36] - Quote
Even without resistance bonuses. Drakes have alot of defence. More damage might be a bad idea. |
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
58
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Posted - 2012.01.18 20:51:00 -
[37] - Quote
RoF bonus: Actually, this is a good replacement for the current Kinetic bonus on the Drake, giving it the flexibility that it sorely needs as a missile platform. Having to lose a full 20% of your damage when you switch damage types actually does suck. (Ask any Tengu pilot who is running L4s against Bloods and Sanshas). It also makes the Drake a bit gankier overall, which would be in line with the Harbinger and Hurricane (the current state of 2 gank and 2 tank BCs at the same tier is rather...strange, if you ask me, considering that the tier1 BCs are all tank boats).
Missile velocity bonus: I can see what they are trying to accomplish here, increasing HAM range while reducing missile delay annoyances. Nerfing HML range (i.e. flight time) overall would probably be a good complement to this, as the Drake shouldn't be a >100km sniper platform (even the Hurricane or Harbinger in a shield + long range turret fit is going to struggle to put good DPS down at 100km away, and that's using LR T2 ammo such as Tremor or Aurora). Ideally, you're looking giving HMLs roughly 80% of their current flight time. The Cerb and Tengu would get their velocity bonuses buffed to 15% per level in this case (which is a slight range nerf for both ships, but not a major factor; either that or you reduce HML flight time to 75% of its current value and then the Cerb and Tengu would still put up their old numbers with a 15%/level velocity bonus while the Drake takes the ding on missile range).
As to the Myrmidon: a 5%/level hybrid damage bonus would make it too ganky due to the high drone DPS output of this ship. Perhaps either 10%/level to hybrid tracking or falloff, to make fitting blasters (or rails) a more attractive option vs. fitting autocannons? (A Caldari-style 10%/level bonus to hybrid optimal would also be workable, and contrasts well with the Brutix in this case.) |
I Legionnaire
State Protectorate Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2012.01.18 21:29:00 -
[38] - Quote
The Drake seems fine to me tbh, if any BC needs a nerf it's the Hurricane. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
638
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Posted - 2012.01.18 21:34:00 -
[39] - Quote
The ROF bonus is a boost for sure. The Missile Velocity bonus OTOH..... I dunno. Not such a fan of that particular approach.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Palladias
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.01.18 21:40:00 -
[40] - Quote
I could really care less what they do with the drake so long as the ferox and med rails get some love. I long for the day when I can take one of these for a spin with my artycane bros. |
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Tsai Ashitaka
Aether Ventures Surely You're Joking
3
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Posted - 2012.01.18 22:15:00 -
[41] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Tsai Ashitaka wrote:Quote:CCP is considering giving it a more offensive role like Raven or Caracal where it would lose the shield resistance bonus and the 5% Kinetic damage bonus instead gain a rate of fire and a missile velocity bonus. Yeah, because the Caracal and Raven are so regularly seen in PvP ops. The drake may be a jack of all trades, but it is a master of none. If you're doing L4s in a drake, it's suboptimal. If you're doing small gang pvp in a drake, you're missing out on the dps and maneuverability of smaller, faster cruisers. If you're doing large scale fleet pvp in a drake, you're missing out on instantaneous damage and high alpha strikes. The drake performs well in many roles, but there are ships that can perform vastly better in each one. Changing the bonuses to fall into line with two of the least used pvp ships will almost completely eliminate the Caldari lineup from pvp. One of the biggest complaints about heavy missiles is its incredible damage projection. Why on earth would CCP propose increasing its range further? The Naga has no resist bonus, yet it is getting some use in pvp. The Mael has no resist bonus . . . The Caracal get's little use because it is a cruiser. Cruisers appear headed for a buff. This should in theory help everybody and increase diversity in the game. The Raven suffers from cruise missile extreme delayed damage aversion as far as large fleet pvp. For close range and smaller scale pvp torp Ravens are still possible. The missile velocity bonus is probably being proposed for the benfit of HAM usage. The bonus could go largely wasted on HM if you continue to view it as a range buff unless you sacrifice a mid to sensor booster, which further cuts into tank. You can't have everything. Alternately, HMs already can get more range than other Medium weapons, so a slight HM range nerf may be part of the balancing changes. This has been hinted at in the past. I think the velocity buff is more for reducing delayed damage aversion, not for providing range that is largely useless with the probing mechanics being what they are now. Instant damage in current drake blobs does not matter, because the entire fleet is damage delayed. Will drakes not be seen anymore? I doubt it. One could foresee trully mixed shield BC fleets. Honestly, delayed damage on missiles is not such a big deal if the entier fleet is in closer. I don't know why people are not looking at changes as an opening to more interesting gameplay. I would really love to see fewer monoculture fleets and more thematic fleets that include entire ship classes in them. Drake blobs, Baddon blobs, Mael blobs, all sorta boring. Nice to see with Hybrid buff that Mael blobs are becoming more loosely Mael and Rokh. Would be good to see Baddons mixed with a Gallente ship as well. There appear to be more ship changes coming than just a Drake nerf. People should seriously wait to see what hits the test server. If the Drake becomes equivalent to a current prophecy then commence the outrage, and I'll be there right with you. However, it seems finally that CCP has put some serious effort into ship balancing and we may get a set of very interesting and good ship changes. Be optimistic. Afterall, hasn't just train a Drake been pretty boring?
All very good points. I only fly in relatively small gangs in a wormhole, so I don't see the drake as being particular OP. It's extremely versatile as is, with a beast of a tank and comparatively excellent damage projection. But the damage it does isn't overpowering until you get into blob-like numbers, but hell, anything will with that many numbers.
I'd love to see more Caldari ships represented in PvP. Having a handful of useful ships does not balance out the incredible meh of the Caldari HACs (double range Eagle! 20 second missile flight time Cerberus!) and battleships (although the Rokh is seeing some use now, despite its glaring lack of a damage bonus).
I guess my initial complaint was the idea of nerfing one of the few useful Caldari ships with little to no mention of examining any of the other ones sitting in the sidelines gathering dust.
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Myryanius
Whistling in the Dark
0
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Posted - 2012.01.18 22:40:00 -
[42] - Quote
(I got bored reading half way down page 2)
The Drake is too much of a crutch and people rely on it way too often. I admit i have never flown one but every single noob friend that has played and quit this game within 2 months has flown a drake. Its got a huge natural shield and a decent amount of mid slots so its still a good passive tank without the shield resist, currently its just got way too much tank and people are fitting it to be rock hard and punch like a little girl.
This nerf will force people to branch out and use other ships instead of thinking "hmmm, pvp - drake for safety, pve - drake for safety, trip to the local supermarket- drake for safety". Theres plenty of other ships that are viable (waaaay more viable than the drake ) for l4 mission running and i will be glad to see people finally being able to appreciate that if this nerf goes through. I bet you now, 1 month after a nerf went though, all they nay-sayers will wonder wtf they were objecting to when they see what they could have been using all this time. |
Gerod Theron
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.01.19 00:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
So they are going to nerf the only Caldari ship that is used consistently.
all these frigging rail boats are worthless. we got the raven and drake for missions. that is the only advantage Caldari have. all of our other ships have other racial counter parts that are more desirable in pvp.
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Khrage
62
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Posted - 2012.01.19 00:44:00 -
[44] - Quote
Gerod Theron wrote:So they are going to nerf the only Caldari ship that is used consistently.
all these frigging rail boats are worthless. we got the raven and drake for missions. that is the only advantage Caldari have. all of our other ships have other racial counter parts that are more desirable in pvp.
you my friend are so completely wrong it is amazing. off the top of my head: rokh, scorp, naga, drake (still after nerf), tengu (should count as a few ships since it can be fit so many different ways), blackbird, falcon, rook, widow, manticore, cormorant, kitsune, crow, hawk, harpy, flycatcher, cerb, moa, nighthawk, and any one i can't think of are very pvp worthy. leaving out navy ships too.
and if you really want a heavy missile slinging heavy tank pve boat, get a nighthawk or tengu. they are both better than the drake even now. CNR, SNI, or Golem all are great PvE boats too, same with the Rokh, but from the sould of things you haven't crosstrained out of missiles at all, which is your fault.
i'm tired of people saying caldari can't pvp. i won't even get into ecm either... |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
644
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 00:58:00 -
[45] - Quote
Oh god - the Harpy and Hawk are going to be utterly ******* ridiculous after the patch. As in, the most OP of the OP class. Its gonna be kinda funny really.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Gerod Theron
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.01.19 01:03:00 -
[46] - Quote
Khrage wrote:Gerod Theron wrote:So they are going to nerf the only Caldari ship that is used consistently.
all these frigging rail boats are worthless. we got the raven and drake for missions. that is the only advantage Caldari have. all of our other ships have other racial counter parts that are more desirable in pvp.
you my friend are so completely wrong it is amazing. off the top of my head: rokh, scorp, naga, drake (still after nerf), tengu (should count as a few ships since it can be fit so many different ways), blackbird, falcon, rook, widow, manticore, cormorant, kitsune, crow, hawk, harpy, flycatcher, cerb, moa, nighthawk, and any one i can't think of are very pvp worthy. leaving out navy ships too. and if you really want a heavy missile slinging heavy tank pve boat, get a nighthawk or tengu. they are both better than the drake even now. CNR, SNI, or Golem all are great PvE boats too, same with the Rokh, but from the sould of things you haven't crosstrained out of missiles at all, which is your fault. i'm tired of people saying caldari can't pvp. i won't even get into ecm either...
name one caldari GUN boat that dose not have a racial counter part that is used over the caldari variant.
I never mentioned ecm or electronic warfare. I never said caldari can not pvp, I said that all of there ships have a better racial conter parts. I do know that caldari ecm is good. I was not contending that.
OO caldari have rails, really? Little bit extra range at the exspence of damage. How many battle are fought at the max range that rails offer? They are worthless unless you are in a giant fleet battle. Which for the majority of eve players is never.
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ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers
65
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Posted - 2012.01.19 01:06:00 -
[47] - Quote
if these changes did go through, i may actually allow drakes back in my fleets, then they may actually be able to do something good for once insted of just dieing VERY slowly. |
Gorefacer
STRAG3S THE UNTHINKABLES
16
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Posted - 2012.01.19 01:37:00 -
[48] - Quote
I run all my Drakes with HAMs as it is anyway. |
Trinkets friend
Obstergo NEM3SIS.
101
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Posted - 2012.01.19 01:37:00 -
[49] - Quote
I fly a Cyclone. I love them, i'm a Cyclone tragic. But, it is always a hassle trying to solo a Drake. If you find one, eg, in full PVE fit with purgers, massive buffer and SPRs, the tank literally cannot be got through without neuting his hardeners off. if you find one PVP fit, with BCU's and a point, you often can DPS him down given enough time, and if it goes badly you just fly away.
Of course, if you know you are going up against a Drake and can refit, the triple-neut capnapper fit Cyclone is the way to go. Their hardeners fold within 20s and you hardly get below 30% shield. Job done.
If CCP does nerf the Drake, as intended, it will make a Drake a soloable target for the tier-1 battlecruisers. Half the issues with the tier system in the BC hulls is the Drake which can just sit there and tank the Brutix, Cyclone and Prophecy with impunity until its own spaghetti limp DPS does the job or its opponent gives up. The way to look at it is, if you remove a chunk of the tank of the Drake it is buffing the other hulls.
Removing the kinetic bonus will be a buff. Make no mistake, these days, if you know you are going up against a Drake you can fit kinetic hardeners and you'll be better off 90% of the time. Without that straitjacket, the Drake will be much more unpredictable and versatile.
As for the discussion of the Cerb, yes this will by default nerf the Cerb because you'll get most of the Cerb's utility in a hull 1/3rd the cost. The Sacrelige will become even more useless.
People are arguing about the Raven. I almost never see Ravens in PVP aside from POS bashes. The Drake, without an OMG BS tank, will definitely see a significant drop in popularity - but that's a good thing. As said, as long as the Ferox gets a bit of a buff to rails and versatility, people will begin using Railroxes.
Another way to look at this is that a velocity bonus on the Drake is a buff to the nanodrake, and the nano-range doctrines for small gangs. You will be able to use the Drake in concert with Nagas, Tornados and artycanes, kiting at 80km and have your missiles hit sometime before the fighting is over. This isn't a bad thing - people will begin flying the Drake, as opposed to just parking it in space and hoping to survive.
This might in the end be the best thing to do for the Drake, turning it from the space brick into a hate-spewing DPS boat.
I'd just like to see further details about some of the other tweaks to the tier-1 hulls. I'd love a 5/5 turret and missile slot versatility in the Cyclone so you could field a full-blown HAMclone with 5 HAMs and 3 neuts. That would be a scary, scary thing. The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man. Sun Tzu
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Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
51
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Posted - 2012.01.19 01:48:00 -
[50] - Quote
Max Von Sydow wrote:What do you think of the drake changes mentioned in the CSM meeting minutes.
"CCP is considering giving it a more offensive role like Raven or Caracal where it would lose the shield resistance bonus and the 5% Kinetic damage bonus instead gain a rate of fire and a missile velocity bonus."
I see how this is like a Raven but how is it like Caracal?
/me looks for ROF bonus to Caracal
Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
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Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
77
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Posted - 2012.01.19 02:17:00 -
[51] - Quote
HAM geared drake should get a slight PG buff if that's going to be the new shape of it do an equal CPU nerf if must be.
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Robertson Nolen
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.01.19 02:29:00 -
[52] - Quote
But but but I like my shield resists. I do not have too many HAM drakes laying around because I fit heavy missiles on them (inb4 you don't know how to fly a drake). I like to be able to take on BS's and often out tank them. I COULD use the Ferox for this role but the Drake is just a greater tank. Maybe you could just take the warfare module bonus off it and then put the kinetic bonus on the drake. |
Isaiah Harms
Buccaneer's Brotherhood
0
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Posted - 2012.01.19 02:44:00 -
[53] - Quote
I oppose the Drake Nerf. Let me explain why:
The Drake is a good ship for an average player.
Now what the Drake DOES excel at is exploration. It can go into a lowsec exploration site and hold agro while your dps alt goes in and kills stuff.
This allows the budding explorers a relatively cheap ship to risk in lowsec. It does this BECAUSE of the 5% shield resists per skill level. Tengu's do well in lowsec, except they use shield boosters and at 10x the price can be hard to afford when they pop. Unless you faction fit a Tengu they do explode in lowsec exploration sites fairly easily. Let's not even mention PVP.
So you all think it's a fine idea to nerf the drake because it's PASSIVE shield regeneration is just too much... Guess you never experienced the PASSIVE SHIELD Myrmidon. It's better than the Drake's.
If this Nerf is proposed because of the Drake's "epic" passive shield regeneration "in full PVE fit with purgers, massive buffer and SPRs" then you are an IDIOT. You DO NOT FLY. You are an EFT warrior only.
Because if you feel a KITING ship like the Drake NEEDS a Passive shield REGEN for 3/4's of the missions in EVE you obviously aren't kiting your targets and killing them with missiles. Which means you are dumb. Why are we considering changing this game for the dummies?
Once you can answer that you might be qualified to debate ship mechanics and mathematics.
Regards,
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Aggressive Nutmeg
94
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Posted - 2012.01.19 05:44:00 -
[54] - Quote
Why do people keep calling this the 'Drake nerf'?
It doesn't look like a nerf to me. I'll reserve my judgement until after they make the change, but I do like the idea of getting extra DPS and range as a tradeoff for losing shield resist and kinetic bonuses.
Especially the kinetic bonus! It makes me predictable and lazy.
Low DPS and WAY MORE tank than I need has been my issue with the Drake. Looks like a buff to me. Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana. |
Surge Roth
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
29
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Posted - 2012.01.19 05:59:00 -
[55] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote: The Mael has no resist bonus . . .
I hope you're not talking about the Maelstrom. Because it's simply better than a drake in every way. It doesn't need tank when it's gank more than compensates for it. A drake's gank is ok at best. Drake really should be a brick house as it currently is. It's a well balanced ship. Has a good tank and sub par dps. Can project it's damage out far, but it takes time, a lot of time, and is easily reduced by simply moving. I mean, Seriously, there are plenty of ships that beat it up close in a one on one, and if for some reason they're 70km out, you can just warp away...
I don't see the problem with them. What, they can do level 4s? So can my hurricane. ****, I've done some in assault frigates for ***** and giggles. Are you jelly that they can just stand there in a level 4 while other people have to move around and what have you? Because I think it's justified by their **** poor dps. I'll consider Drakes or tengus OP when they can 1-2 volley npc battleships which I don't see happening... ever. I mean, they can kill them, using 7 times the ammo and 5 - 10 times slower than a Mael, but if taking 1-3 minutes to pop 1 battleship npc is fast for you people... I think the issue is with you guys. |
Khrage
62
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Posted - 2012.01.19 06:01:00 -
[56] - Quote
Isaiah Harms wrote: So you all think it's a fine idea to nerf the drake because it's PASSIVE shield regeneration is just too much... Guess you never experienced the PASSIVE SHIELD Myrmidon. It's better than the Drake's.
just a little side comment, i'm pretty sure it's not... but either way, they are changing/tweaking/nerfing (w/e u want to call it) the myrm too. i don't know exact details, but don't compare a purposed ship change against a ship that is also getting tweaked before the change. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
107
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 06:19:00 -
[57] - Quote
Elindreal wrote:HAM geared drake should get a slight PG buff if that's going to be the new shape of it do an equal CPU nerf if must be.
No, it's right the reverse - HAM-tailored drake should get a PG/CPU reduction in order to make it even more interesting fitting-wise, so that people start actually doing some trades rather than getting everything as granted. 2008, CCP Zulu(park): "command ships are fine as is" 2011, CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" Nice progress, guys. |
Palladias
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2012.01.19 06:38:00 -
[58] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:Elindreal wrote:HAM geared drake should get a slight PG buff if that's going to be the new shape of it do an equal CPU nerf if must be.
No, it's right the reverse - HAM-tailored drake should get a PG/CPU reduction in order to make it even more interesting fitting-wise, so that people start actually doing some trades rather than getting everything as granted.
Agreed, drakes being easy to fit is unique to that ship. Certainly not a well known aspect of another entire race's entire lineup. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
107
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Posted - 2012.01.19 06:51:00 -
[59] - Quote
Palladias wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:Elindreal wrote:HAM geared drake should get a slight PG buff if that's going to be the new shape of it do an equal CPU nerf if must be.
No, it's right the reverse - HAM-tailored drake should get a PG/CPU reduction in order to make it even more interesting fitting-wise, so that people start actually doing some trades rather than getting everything as granted. Agreed, drakes being easy to fit is unique to that ship. Certainly not a well known aspect of another entire race's entire lineup. I guess that's a separate issue. Others being easy to fit don't justify that issue with Drake. Since what's the point then in having CPU and grid in the first place? 2008, CCP Zulu(park): "command ships are fine as is" 2011, CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" Nice progress, guys. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate
25
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Posted - 2012.01.19 07:30:00 -
[60] - Quote
Khrage wrote:Isaiah Harms wrote: So you all think it's a fine idea to nerf the drake because it's PASSIVE shield regeneration is just too much... Guess you never experienced the PASSIVE SHIELD Myrmidon. It's better than the Drake's.
just a little side comment, i'm pretty sure it's not... but either way, they are changing/tweaking/nerfing (w/e u want to call it) the myrm too. i don't know exact details, but don't compare a purposed ship change against a ship that is also getting tweaked before the change.
Where did you read they are changing the Myrm?
And I am looking forward to the T1 BC changes. I really hope they give the Brutix an extra medium or low, and medium rails get another tweak. Hearing ppl constantly call for Drakes and Canes in fleets is really getting old. |
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