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Captain Sonata	Posted - 2007.09.19 01:26:00 - [1] The Caracal looks like an anorexic American celebrity. Yet, it somehow manages to pull more weight(@ 13,750,000 kg) than any non Caldari ship in the game. It is the 2nd heaviest cruiser vessel in the game behind the Blackbird(which weights a whopping 14,000,000kg). So what gives? Re-model the Caracal to make it a chubby missile launcher. or Reduce its weight to about 10,000,000kg to match its size. Here is a real life Caracal: Image Link Here is the in game Caracal: Image Link How in the world is this ship the heaviest and the slowest in the game?
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.09.19 01:30:00 - [2] game balance - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online
Magazaki	Posted - 2007.09.19 05:08:00 - [3] Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari game balance Like hell it is... Weighing more than a BC?? "Remnants of the past" is more like it...
Marcus Starr Chosen Path FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.19 06:05:00 - [4] Yes, unnerf us Caldari. If anything, we should be the second if not first most agile and light race of races.
Onewingedangel Minmatar Shadows of the Dead	Posted - 2007.09.19 06:31:00 - [5] Edited by: Onewingedangel on 19/09/2007 06:33:54 Edited by: Onewingedangel on 19/09/2007 06:33:22 You really think you should be lighter and faster than the minmatar eh? Cereally, different races have different abilities. Minmatar are built around speed, if you want to be the lightest and the fastest, then train minmatar and don't ***** about a slow cruiser.
Marcus Starr Chosen Path FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.19 08:03:00 - [6] Originally by: Onewingedangel Edited by: Onewingedangel on 19/09/2007 06:33:54 Edited by: Onewingedangel on 19/09/2007 06:33:22 You really think you should be lighter and faster than the minmatar eh? Cereally, different races have different abilities. Minmatar are built around speed, if you want to be the lightest and the fastest, then train minmatar and don't ***** about a slow cruiser. First off, I didn't say anything about being the fastest. Second, I did say second was fine. Third, I do have a character that flies Minmatar. Thank you, come again (or preferably not)!
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.09.19 08:38:00 - [7] Originally by: Marcus Starr Originally by: Onewingedangel Edited by: Onewingedangel on 19/09/2007 06:33:54 Edited by: Onewingedangel on 19/09/2007 06:33:22 You really think you should be lighter and faster than the minmatar eh? Cereally, different races have different abilities. Minmatar are built around speed, if you want to be the lightest and the fastest, then train minmatar and don't ***** about a slow cruiser. First off, I didn't say anything about being the fastest. Second, I did say second was fine. Third, I do have a character that flies Minmatar. Thank you, come again (or preferably not)! 2e yeh? IMO: Minmatar fastest, gallente 2e, amarr 3e and the race that is specialised @longrange combat should be teh slowest. I aint saying you should be slow in the current way, but still the slowest. Other races need the speed more. If caldari went ZOOOM ZOOOOOM, how the hell is any blastership (not the i-win pwn yo vessel) gonna catch up? How the hell would gallente and ammar damage caldari and minmatar. Currently only minmatar has hard to hit ships that can flee, BUT these vessels suffer from there own speed. You dont see a vagabond orbit with mwd on, its off. Now imagine a cerberus with no tracking issues moving with 5-6 km/s invunerable for missiles and most gunfire dealing good dps. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Iyachtu Achlysiel Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.09.19 08:46:00 - [8] If Caldari were anywhere near as fast and agile as Minmatar, they might be a bit overpowered. Enemy using autocannons, blasters or pulses? Speed out of his reach, firing volleys of missiles. He's using long-range weapons instead? Go orbit him up close and blast him to shreds with the nice little missiles that work just as well at short range. Right now this Caldari ability to fight equally well at close and mid ranges isn't much of an advantage, because generally it's the guy in some other empire's ship that dictates the range with his superior speed. I'd love a slight boost to speed and a little cut from mass, but it'd be real easy to overdo. They're fine the way they are as well, though.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.19 09:53:00 - [9] He didnt ask for a buff, he just said they could bring the ships model in line with its weight, thats all. Originally by: Captian Internet Did some one say IBTL? because I think I just heard some one say IBTL
MotoTsume Gallente Clan Black Scorpion	Posted - 2007.09.19 10:00:00 - [10] WHERE'S THE BEEF??????????????? sorry couldn't resist. ---------- www.mototsume.ca It's just a game........Or is it?
Drixy	Posted - 2007.09.19 10:02:00 - [11] Edited by: Drixy on 19/09/2007 10:01:52 just give the caldari ships 1000% more hull HP, since they appear to be made out of solid metal, I wonder where do they even stick the pilot in in those solid hunks of tritanium
Deacon Ix Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.09.19 11:14:00 - [12] I have always been a bit bemused my Caldari ships and their mass Caldari ships are Sheild tankers, IMO they should have a Big Sig raduis (they do) and small mass Gallente/Amarr are Armour Tankers, Large mass (all those layers of plate) and A relativly smaller sig radius My thoughts on speed 1) Minmater 2) Caldari 3) Gallente 4) Amarr I would like to see ship follow the Following logic Speed is proportional to Mass Mass is Proportional to Armour HP Sig Radius is proportional to Shield HP Minmater are alwasy a trcky one with the mix of Shield tanking and Armour tanking and might need a bit of a fiddle to fit with the above and retain their Speed Tanking status Originally by: Steini OFSI The most efficient way to get a dev response is to have the word beer somewhere in your thread.
Marcus Starr Chosen Path FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.19 11:44:00 - [13] You know, I really don't care if Caldari missile ships are as slow as they are now, but it would be nice if they were more agile, and had lower mass for when we activate our MWDs or ABs just to be able to keep up with our targets for even just a little while.
Klavayne Free Mercenaries Union FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.19 11:44:00 - [14] Edited by: Klavayne on 19/09/2007 11:44:21 Why the picture of the real life caracal? Do you want the ship to be able to jump really high in game, as cool as that would be for dodging gun-fire i'm not sure how it would work.
Igualmentedos	Posted - 2007.09.19 12:57:00 - [15] Originally by: Onewingedangel Edited by: Onewingedangel on 19/09/2007 06:33:54 Edited by: Onewingedangel on 19/09/2007 06:33:22 You really think you should be lighter and faster than the minmatar eh? Cereally, different races have different abilities. Minmatar are built around speed, if you want to be the lightest and the fastest, then train minmatar and don't ***** about a slow cruiser. I think he means he wants caldari to be as fast as gallente. Which I completley agree with, slow bricks of suck are annoying to fly.
Igualmentedos	Posted - 2007.09.19 12:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Deacon Ix I have always been a bit bemused my Caldari ships and their mass Caldari ships are Sheild tankers, IMO they should have a Big Sig raduis (they do) and small mass Gallente/Amarr are Armour Tankers, Large mass (all those layers of plate) and A relativly smaller sig radius My thoughts on speed 1) Minmater 2) Caldari 3) Gallente 4) Amarr I would like to see ship follow the Following logic Speed is proportional to Mass Mass is Proportional to Armour HP Sig Radius is proportional to Shield HP Minmater are alwasy a trcky one with the mix of Shield tanking and Armour tanking and might need a bit of a fiddle to fit with the above and retain their Speed Tanking status /SIGN Please make this happen CCP.
Yamaeda Amarr	Posted - 2007.09.19 13:40:00 - [17] Originally by: Captain Sonata Re-model the Caracal to make it a chubby missile launcher. Agreed, it should look more like a fat vulture, closer to the Prophecy aka Phat Duck. /Y ---------- It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Valea Wrath Of Khaine Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.19 14:54:00 - [18] /signed, I don't need more speed, just less mass and faster turning
Captain Schmungles Caldari Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.09.19 16:23:00 - [19] So, to understand your complaint fully: You are complaining that a ship that can hit at over 90km with its missiles (assuming good skills and a sensor booster), and deal full damage at that range, should also be faster and more manuverable? Give me a break. Once upon a time, in the early days of Eve, Caldari ships were the lightest, fastest, and most manuverable ships in the game. They were missile boats, as they are today. This created a very problematic balance issue. A caracal could, for example, orbit a Thorax at max velocity and suffer no penalty to its dps. On the other hand, no other ship could do this without a corresponding loss to dps. So, CCP nerfed the Caldari ships by making them the heaviest ships in the game, and quite frankly it was a very needed nerf, and things are fine the way they are. You want speed and manuverability in a missile boat? Go fly a 'phoon, or better yet a Macherial.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.19 16:30:00 - [20] Well for all the "omg fast caldari? overpwness!!": GET YOURSELF A TACKLER!! muahaha wow i finally could say it... everytime all the non-caldari people say "well you have to get a tackler to play caldari!"... well, why shouldnt bring other people a tackler to kill the caldari ship?
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.09.19 16:31:00 - [21] Edited by: NoNah on 19/09/2007 16:32:40 I don't suppose you'd see a problem with having extreme ranges (and/or no tracking) and high speed on the same ships? Besides, if you think more beef would make it faster, you seriously need to visit a nutritionist. Postcount: 512505
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.19 16:32:00 - [22] Originally by: NoNah I don't suppose you'd see a problem with having extreme ranges (and/or no tracking) and high speed on the same ships? What does it help? Extreme range -> no scramble
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.09.19 16:39:00 - [23] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Originally by: NoNah I don't suppose you'd see a problem with having extreme ranges (and/or no tracking) and high speed on the same ships? What does it help? Extreme range -> no scramble Bubbles, tacklers and up to 30km+ scram range on a solocruiser should be saying enough. And the fact that no other craft would be able to do anything to it? 99% resistance to all wouldn't kill any other ships would it, thus it must be balanced to give someone? Postcount: 160045
Kala Veijo Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.09.19 16:41:00 - [24] Could use one more lowslot. Warp Wind, CSM Chapter blog.
pandymen Caldari Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.09.19 16:42:00 - [25] Although this has already been discussed to death in another thread...I'll repeat what someone else made a point to post. Back in the day when you could fit dual MWD's and torps (among other things) were ridiculous, caldari ship mass was increased (probably by a bit too much) to balance this. Now, that the dual MWD issue has been fixed, and all of the other issues have been addressed, Caldari ships are still both the slowest and the heaviest of all the races. This means they are much much less versatile than their quicker counterparts. Moreover, speed doesn't = overpowered caldari anyway, since when one is at that magical mid range that caldari excel at, you are totally unable to warpscram/web. The sheer fact is that caldari ships are caught far too easily since they are incredibly slow to align and cannot keep range at all. This combined with the fact that fitting AB/MWD on a caldari ship = having little to no tank...yeah....caldari are slow. I really don't care too much tbh...I manage fine as it is. But it would be nice if the mass was reduced so caldari actually get normal bonuses from AB/MWD and can actually align/accelerate a bit faster. It feels like I'm flying a bathtub when I get in a caldari battleship.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.19 16:46:00 - [26] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Benn Helmsman Originally by: NoNah I don't suppose you'd see a problem with having extreme ranges (and/or no tracking) and high speed on the same ships? What does it help? Extreme range -> no scramble Bubbles, tacklers and up to 30km+ scram range on a solocruiser should be saying enough. And the fact that no other craft would be able to do anything to it? 99% resistance to all wouldn't kill any other ships would it, thus it must be balanced to give someone? Bubbles? What? Tackler? Bring your own: win 30km+ scrambler? Well would be nice, but have you already tried to fit an mwd-caracal? You run into a lot of problems if you try that: extrem low cap recharge, low PG, running out of midslots without any other tank then speed.
KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.19 16:54:00 - [27] yarr Boost The Eagle!
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.19 17:00:00 - [28] Originally by: Deacon Ix I have always been a bit bemused my Caldari ships and their mass Caldari ships are Sheild tankers, IMO they should have a Big Sig raduis (they do) and small mass Gallente/Amarr are Armour Tankers, Large mass (all those layers of plate) and A relativly smaller sig radius My thoughts on speed 1) Minmater 2) Caldari 3) Gallente 4) Amarr I would like to see ship follow the Following logic Speed is proportional to Mass Mass is Proportional to Armour HP Sig Radius is proportional to Shield HP Minmater are alwasy a trcky one with the mix of Shield tanking and Armour tanking and might need a bit of a fiddle to fit with the above and retain their Speed Tanking status Yay I get to make up another fantasy reason for game balance hmz..... I know! Shield generators have lots of super high density materials in them making them really heavy when you beef them up --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz, 2GB Gskill DDR2 5400 @ 800mhh 4-4-4-12, Abit fatality mATX F-I90HD @ 334mhz, 8800GTS 320mb 2x250GB 7200.10s Raid 0, Vista 64 Home.
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.19 17:56:00 - [29] Originally by: Arana Tellen Originally by: Deacon Ix I have always been a bit bemused my Caldari ships and their mass Caldari ships are Sheild tankers, IMO they should have a Big Sig raduis (they do) and small mass Gallente/Amarr are Armour Tankers, Large mass (all those layers of plate) and A relativly smaller sig radius My thoughts on speed 1) Minmater 2) Caldari 3) Gallente 4) Amarr I would like to see ship follow the Following logic Speed is proportional to Mass Mass is Proportional to Armour HP Sig Radius is proportional to Shield HP Minmater are alwasy a trcky one with the mix of Shield tanking and Armour tanking and might need a bit of a fiddle to fit with the above and retain their Speed Tanking status Yay I get to make up another fantasy reason for game balance hmz..... I know! Shield generators have lots of super high density materials in them making them really heavy when you beef them up So you're saying that Minnie shields are uber next to Caldari shields? The Cyclone gets a shield boost bonus, more shields, more armor, more guns, more damage, more everything ... and weighs less than a Caracal. ;-) Liang Yarr?
EvilSpork	Posted - 2007.09.19 19:04:00 - [30] /signed i support either a slightly more agile caracal (reduced mass to be in line with the model and slightly buff the caracal. it really is a brick and cant tank lol) or a new caracal model that retains its look, but is more bulky to fit its mass. neither change should effect gameplay much and are certainly not unfounded. reducing the mass wont make it a solowtfpwnmobile by any means. though it may enable a slight speed tank with a mwd, which i view as good.
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.19 19:14:00 - [31] Originally by: EvilSpork /signed i support either a slightly more agile caracal (reduced mass to be in line with the model and slightly buff the caracal. it really is a brick and cant tank lol) or a new caracal model that retains its look, but is more bulky to fit its mass. neither change should effect gameplay much and are certainly not unfounded. reducing the mass wont make it a solowtfpwnmobile by any means. though it may enable a slight speed tank with a mwd, which i view as good. No, because I want to be able to catch the Caracal in < 5 seconds from entering the belt in my Thorax. Otherwise I'll die and that wouldn't be fair. Liang Yarr?
Phil Miller Ocean Dynamics Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.19 19:40:00 - [32] Caldari need a beef injection :) Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Hutch ([email protected])
Agent 13	Posted - 2007.09.19 20:06:00 - [33] Ok, so we should strip the shields from all the other races then, since apparently shield generators are heavy.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.09.20 08:41:00 - [34] 1. This game isnt balanced around 1v1. That rings a bell? Go play wow, whine about balanced and then get schooled about what rock paper scissor design means by a 12 year old. 2. You want to be fast? Dedicate your two lowslots to it. Oh, you want to do high damage AND be fast while still being immune to your own speed and able to engage at pretty much every range? Hmm tough cookie, maybe jovian ship?
Xzar Fyrarr	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:06:00 - [35] How in the world is this ship the heaviest and the slowest in the game? CCP made it that way. CCP wanted it that way. Caldari are not supposed to be even close to the fastest race. Mimmatar are the fastest no questions asked. Then gallente. Then CALDARI. Then Amarr. Caldari dont NEED spped as much as mimmatar. Amarr dont NEED speed as much as mimmatar. Gallente has speed armor and awesome DPS because CCP just loves gallente :] If caldari were to be ranged "caracal can get ranges with lights up to 41km I believe and up to 69km with heavies" and be in match with say a thorax's speed... then there would be a definate problem. But in pvp......... what thorax would stick around for a fight that it has to catch up 60km with MWD while the other ship is 60km away USEING an MWD AND FIRING missles at the same time =\ Really it just comes down to the situation in the game... A thorax/Stabber will probally warp right on top of a caracal if its in an asteriod belt... so being lighter wont help a WHOLE lot. And it mainly depends on the player. I seen a argueably decent caracal pvp setup which could work both in gangs and solo[IF YOU PICK YOUR FIGHTS SMARTLY.] Caracal weight needs to be lowered slightly... just slightly... Caldari are known for there overly fat ships. The shield sstems might add on a whole lot of mass to the ship? If they didnt.... then just make the maelstrom be as fast as a raven "considering shield systems dont require more mass." And the engines on the caracal. They might add ALOT to the mass considering they are huge looking compared to most Cruisers =\
Phil Miller Ocean Dynamics Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:45:00 - [36] So everyone who is opposed to the idea of fixing Caracal's model(or reducing its weight) trying to say is, that somehow the extra pixels(or the extra 200m/s-500m/s while MWDing) will completely throw the game off balance? The points that were brought up against the idea included: other games, 12 year olds, some inexistent fighting conditions that the game hasn't seen in years, interceptors, ravens, scorpions, 'phoons, machariel and a thorax. How do any of these relate to the Caracal, I do not know. We're playing EVE-Online Not: - Rock/Paper/Scissors - WoW - Name as many clichTs as you can Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Hutch ([email protected])
Bentula	Posted - 2007.09.20 21:53:00 - [37] Originally by: Phil Miller So everyone who is opposed to the idea of fixing Caracal's model(or reducing its weight) trying to say is, that somehow the extra pixels(or the extra 200m/s-500m/s while MWDing) will completely throw the game off balance? The points that were brought up against the idea included: other games, 12 year olds, some inexistent fighting conditions that the game hasn't seen in years, interceptors, ravens, scorpions, 'phoons, machariel and a thorax. How do any of these relate to the Caracal, I do not know. We're playing EVE-Online Not: - Rock/Paper/Scissors - WoW - Name as many clichTs as you can Let me elaborate a bit more without having to resort to using wow, 12 year olds and clichTs(your a cold, cruel man ). 1. I think changing the stats is a bad idea because it might very well lead to imbalanced setups. For example 20% more speed for average joe is no problem. I dont care wether your caracal goes 1400m/s or 1700m/s, even though that might already be a problem. What i have a problem with is what those same 20% would do to a speedfitted caracal/cerberus. If it is the difference between med ACs/pulses being able to track or not for example, or the difference between med drones/heavy missiles able to do any damage or not we have a problem. Stabber isnt the same problem as it has to decide between avoiding getting hit and hitting the enemy(it NEEDs to drop orbitspeed to damage), caracal only has to worry about the avoiding part. 2. Im against changing the caracals model to adapt to its stats. If we did it for the caracal, why not for the cerberus? And do we really want half the ships we know getting changed so that their appearence fits more with their stats? Or do we only do it for the ships the op dislikes? People have got used to the look of the caracal and some are bound to be displeased with making it a fat turkey, we cant change the look of a ship just cause some people dont like it. If we start changing ships looks or stats because some players lobby for it we will go down in a circle of neverending changes as different players will lobby for different changes for the same ship. We all think we have the greatest arguments and following our advice is the obvious and right thing to do. But its not. Cause we are not impartial. We are lobbying, for things we want.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.09.20 22:01:00 - [38] The caracal doesn't need to be faster. The crow, and back in the day, dual MWD ravens, prove why fast missile ships are perhaps dangerous - turret ships have to slow down to hit things, MIssile ships don't. However what the Caracal _really_ needs is just a little bit more powergrid, so it can fit HAMs and a MWD, without a fitting mod. Crane needs more grid
Bentula	Posted - 2007.09.20 22:18:00 - [39] Originally by: James Lyrus The caracal doesn't need to be faster. The crow, and back in the day, dual MWD ravens, prove why fast missile ships are perhaps dangerous - turret ships have to slow down to hit things, MIssile ships don't. However what the Caracal _really_ needs is just a little bit more powergrid, so it can fit HAMs and a MWD, without a fitting mod. Now THAT sounds reasonable. Im all for making certain caldari ships less of a casualty waiting to happen, and a change in powergrid is definitly less of a hazardous thing.
arbalesttom	Posted - 2007.09.20 23:13:00 - [40] Originally by: James Lyrus The caracal doesn't need to be faster. The crow, and back in the day, dual MWD ravens, prove why fast missile ships are perhaps dangerous - turret ships have to slow down to hit things, MIssile ships don't. However what the Caracal _really_ needs is just a little bit more powergrid, so it can fit HAMs and a MWD, without a fitting mod. Hey, did you just mention we should nerf some minimatar ships? Good plan!
Acoco Osiris Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:30:00 - [41] The whole rigamarole with missiles having no tracking issues, thus uber nano-ships is a very good reason to keep Caldari ships slow. Maybe they could use a -10% mass -10% speed change, but that's debatable. And yeah-Caldari ships really begin to shine when fitted with sensor damps and mid-range DPS in tandem with an interceptor to tackle. If an enemy decides to MWD to you? Slam a few very-high-damage volleys down his throat. If he sits there? Just a matter of breaking his tank. And as for Gallente having high speed and high DPS? That DPS only starts when we get right next to an enemy. Blasters are notorious for having horrible range, and railguns do low DPS. Drones, yeah, but if a drone-user's hanging out at anywhere farther than a couple kilometers, he's going to have a very fun time watching his drones be shot down on the way back to his ship. ------------------------------ One more soldier off to war... And one Velator in my hangars.

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