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Was the super capital nerf too much?

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Saint Luka The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.01 13:33:00 - [1] Whilst i realise this thread will probobly be bombarded with anti-capital mails please remember this is not a whine, my alliance hasn't lost any super capitals and i have never lost a standard capital myself. From the rate that Titans and Motherships are dieing is anyone else with me in the belief that a ship that requires so much logistics to build can be so easily killed in 0.0? Whilst these ships should never be deployed without the correct support to back it up the fact that these super capitals can be held in one place by a simple interdictor bubble is maybe a little bit overpowered? Not two days ago did we have two Nyx's die in the same day, along with a titan the day before that. Whilst these ships are being built more frequently with the Soveignty changes and alliances becoming more wealthy it is certainly a harsh ISK sink. I realise these ships are more than just PVP mobiles, with a titan being able to jump bridge ships/freighters/capitals and a mothership being able to transport upto 450k M3 when properly setup (Honour tank not included). The fact of the matter is that if you field one of these ships vurses a well organised alliance it will die, no question. Whilst i believe they were overpowered before the patch with no actual ability of holding one down apart from neuting it too hell and back now it has come to a point where its beyond stupid at the rate these are dieing, and 90% of the time it isn't just pilot's error. A possibility to solving this problem would be a capital warp scrambler, whilst people may not like this idea as people would not want to use up a med/high slot with one of these beasts instead of flaming this thread if you could contribute possible ideas to a "counter nerf" that would be great. Please note: I am not refering to low sec super capitals, strictly 0.0 -
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.10.01 13:40:00 - [2] Did another Titan pilot die?
Asestorian Minmatar Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.10.01 13:41:00 - [3] The main reason they are dying so much recently is that people are starting to realise how they work. People have been watching what SuperCap pilots do with their ships, and making tactics accordingly. Through this they can lay out a nice trap. Motherships tend to die if the pilot is bored and just goes and attacks a random target, which happens to be bait for a trap. The MS doesn't always have a lot of support, and goes down in the end. Titans just have ****weak tanks, and tend to die if left alone without the support of 40 carriers remote repping all the time. I think that, considering the size, Titans are a little too easy to kill perhaps, but overall I think things are ok. We're probably going to start seeing these things used less and less though, as people have no choice but to be ridiculously careful with their ship. The tactics for taking them down are being refined to a crazy level now. --- ---
Saint Luka The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.01 13:41:00 - [4] Originally by: Vitrael Did another Titan pilot die? I was refering to Seleene in MC's Ragnarok, still, stay on topic please :D -
Jaikar Isillia Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.01 13:42:00 - [5] Ships die, they come and they go. There has to be a very careful balance with the capital ships and I feel that CCP has found this at the moment. At the moment they are formidable ships being able to command great firepower however they also do not diminish the value and more importantly the roles of other classes of ships.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.01 13:55:00 - [6] They're not dieing so fast because they're too vulnerable, but because so many people are so intent on killing them.
Saint Luka The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:00:00 - [7] Edited by: Saint Luka on 01/10/2007 14:00:50 Well if people are so intent on killing them maybe they can bring in a module specifically for this purpose instead of interdictors? It would not affect anything on actually killing them and it means it requires planning to do it / I propose these having mid/high PG so you cannot just put them on a frig/destroyer and also it would tackle the age old problem of low sec gate camping motherships. -
ponieus Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:02:00 - [8] my personal feeling is nothing below a capitol should be able to bump and move such a massive ship out of alignment for warp. other than that the ship and mechanics work perfect. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Auron Shadowbane Teeth Of The Hydra R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:03:00 - [9] they die so much cause fitting a cap repair on a mothership/titan is like fitting a medium armor repair on a battleship. give them super-capital repairs so they can tank whole fleets on their own ^^
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:04:00 - [10] I made a thread about this the other night here. Quote: So, Were CCP right to absolutely nerf supercaps like this? From one point, of course they were. It's restricted the use of supercaps exclusively to the huge blobs of 0.0 (or lowsec gates, assuming x13 aren't about) - almost all the supercaps we've seen killed are ones that have been isolated from their support fleets (assuming they had one) and taken out before help could arrive. However, this spreads blobs, which isn't a good thing. On that note, i was thinking. Supercaps are a massive investment, that are currently nigh on useless for anything other than use as undampable carriers, or glorified taxis. Considering the investment involved in one of these things, this is ridiculous. Their use should not have been so altered by what is a very simple change to a small, cheap ship. The first change that sprung to my mind, if a little dreamish, is to give supercapitals a station service-esque target for their jump drive, and allow them to jump inside bubbles again (but NOT warp). This means that the dictor changes from the absolute anti-supercap tools, to an element of an anti-supercap force. You're going to need dread forces, gank BSes and whatever else in there to take out its jump drive before it can jump away to safety, all the while relying on your dictors to prevent it warping away. The second one that came to mind was to give supercaps the ability to jump in bubbles, but at a higher cap requirement, for the sake of argument; 90%. This means that instead of having the destroy a ship service as in the first suggestion, you have to use a more conventional anti-capital tactic and neutralise the ship's capacitor, ASWELL as utilising dictors to hold it in place to prevent warp, and to eventually prevent jump once the ship is below a certain level of cap. This also means support fleets can help their supercap to jump out by transfering capacitor, instead of attempting the ridiculously futile task of smartbombing dictor bubbles while dodging the hostile fleet. Basically, i'd simply like to see the dictor bubble changed from an absolute method of holding down any supercap, to simply one element of holding it down. Preferably coupled with something that only a large fleet, or supremely organised medium-sized fleet could do.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:09:00 - [11] They should die even faster!! Battles were there are so many super capitals that they are he backbone of the fighting force are not fun and stupid. Hopefully the Dictor Cruiser will make super capitals drop like flies. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:13:00 - [12] Originally by: Saint Luka Edited by: Saint Luka on 01/10/2007 14:00:50 Well if people are so intent on killing them maybe they can bring in a module specifically for this purpose instead of interdictors? It would not affect anything on actually killing them and it means it requires planning to do it / I propose these having mid/high PG so you cannot just put them on a frig/destroyer and also it would tackle the age old problem of low sec gate camping motherships. They fitted an Interdictor so it could survive the Ragnarok's DD blast. You don't think that's quite a bit of planning and preparation there? Not to mention how insanely lucky that Cov Ops pilot was to find the Titan's safe spot even though he warped to it and cloaked instantly.
Saint Luka The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:16:00 - [13] Edited by: Saint Luka on 01/10/2007 14:16:26 I was not penalising that kill in general, the titan has such a massive signature radius its totally Seleene's fault, however that is a post for COAD :). I mean in general with the current state of atleast one of these monsters going down weekly. -
Marus Safeld Caldari Trojans Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:16:00 - [14] I can't tell about Titans really but motherships in my opinion are fine as they are. The interdictors don't kill the mothership. They merely keep it from escaping... and even that is a pretty hard job. Our frigate gang had 2 interdictors with them when they found the Morsus Mihi Nyx. Yet, if he have had been able to use his jumpdrive (I am not sure whether a cyno jammer prevents outgoing jumps too or if he just couldn't find a pilot to cyno him out) he could have escaped three times before the reinforcments arrived. Also, he did not have ANY utility drones at all. Webbers and energy vampires are extremely helpful when trying to take out small ships. Personaly, I have used them twice to bail my Chimera out. The main problem with the supercaps in my opinion is, that many pilots who fly them believe they are immune to anything smaller than a capital ship simply because their ships are so big and expensive.
Barthezz Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:17:00 - [15] I am biased on this as I have a Nyx myself, but I do tend to agree that their a bit too easy to kill at this moment. People shout that you shouldnt use them without the proper support. My question then is, what is proper support? Is proper support 10 other people? Is it 20? Is it 30? 100? etc. Where does it end and at that point, does a mothership really have that big of an effect to justify its cost? This is mainly aimed at motherships as Titans are a bit different, simply because a titan has the ability to affect fleet sized combat. A mothership's role however, isnt that much different then a carrier. Its tank (usually) isnt that much better, etc. And with all the changes to dictor bubbles, its survivability really isnt that much higher then a normal carrier. Anyways I'll probably lose my Nyx in either some lag fest (you know the type where you go "I am sure I activated that module, why isnt it on yet" type lag) or a well laid trap, such is life. And with my luck, only after I lost it will it get a boost --- Dont be a victim of what I do to survive!
Marus Safeld Caldari Trojans Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:24:00 - [16] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Not to mention how insanely lucky that Cov Ops pilot was to find the Titan's safe spot even though he warped to it and cloaked instantly. I am not sure whether it's a bug or a feature CCP snuck in with a recent patch but I picked up a cloaked Nyx about week ago. I was doing exploration in our home system when a run on the Radar Quests showed a Nyx. I didn't believe my probes as the directional scan showed nothing and warped to the signature cloaked at 100km. There was no sign of the Nyx so I ran a second cycle on the probes. Same result: Nyx, signature was insanely strong (I think it was >1500 points), accuracy 0km, distance 101km. So by the result I was sitting right next to a cloaked mothership. And infact I was! Shortly after I started a 3rd cycle on the probes, still in disbelief, the Nyx uncloaked and jumped out of the system.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:27:00 - [17] Originally by: Barthezz My question then is, what is proper support? Is proper support 10 other people? Is it 20? Is it 30? 100? etc. 100 Ships like that should be the center of large fleets, not solo ships. Look at carriers in real life. They don't go anywhere without a large escort that can protect them against any threat and in a real war they could still die to a sneaky submarine captain or to a large enough force of longrange naval bombers flooding the air defenses of the carrier and its escorts with cruise missiles.
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:34:00 - [18] Edited by: Xilimyth Derlin on 01/10/2007 14:36:21 Two Nyx's went down... the question is, what defensive fleets did they have versus what the offensive fleet consisted of. I one case, if the Nyx was protected by one carrier and a few battleships versus a group of 20 or 30 players all in gank configuration with a fleet commander with half a level of competency, that SuperCap deserved to die, no if and's or buts. Yea, super caps are expensive, but they're not "soloownmobiles" as its been put a few times. As others have said, the same tactics these supercap pilots have been using are starting to be analyzed and seeing holes in them. Did interdiction spheres help this downfall, yes.... but it would have been done anyway at one point or another. Just with far more nos/neut ships, which leads to blobbing, insert vicious cycle here. Personally, 20 vs 3 odds... the super cap shouldn't escape even if it does cost 20b. In addition, the other reason these ships are going down with higher frequency is also just what you have said. There are more being built and just plain more out there. It's easier to pincer one super-cap at a time, then wait for a fleet to be built and try to nail 5 or 6 in formation at once.
Indigo Johnson Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:34:00 - [19] I would say supercaps are as close to balanced as is likely to be. Though some problems exist: - Lag and desynch from bumping of drones due to their large model in game: this will hopefully be sorted (or the effect lessened) with the new gfx engine coming in November. - People treating them as solopwnmobiles. Yes they are v powerful ships, but piloting them solo is (as we have seen with the RZR, MM and others) a good way of losing them. - Super cap pilots need more paranoia. Can't really think of any changes apart from: - Make the mothership and titan more like the mobile stations/ships they are meant to be, meaning being able to house battleships and have a better mechanism for pilots being able to clone jump to them. These logistical attributes are, after all i think, the main reasons for their introduction in game. Right ccp?
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:58:00 - [20] Originally by: Saint Luka From the rate that Titans and Motherships are dieing is anyone else with me in the belief that a ship that requires so much logistics to build can be so easily killed in 0.0? easyyou call that easy Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
James Duar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:58:00 - [21] They're balanced because a supercap by itself is actually a target now, rather then "hurf durf let's go elsewhere".
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:00:00 - [22] Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 01/10/2007 15:02:49 Originally by: ponieus my personal feeling is nothing below a capitol should be able to bump and move such a massive ship out of alignment for warp. other than that the ship and mechanics work perfect. you do realize that the titan can warp in seconds right? Nano titans can warp in fire DD and gtfo before you even know what happened. Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:00:00 - [23] Edited by: Amy Wang on 01/10/2007 15:00:59 If they are used in a proper way as centerpieces of large fleets with lots of support, remote repping carriers and point defense escorts I dont think they die easily at all. If they are used more or less solo or without proper support they die from time to time and rightly so.
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:01:00 - [24] Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 01/10/2007 15:01:35 double post? Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Asestorian Minmatar Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:01:00 - [25] Edited by: Asestorian on 01/10/2007 15:03:08 Originally by: Marus Safeld Originally by: Reem Fairchild Not to mention how insanely lucky that Cov Ops pilot was to find the Titan's safe spot even though he warped to it and cloaked instantly. I am not sure whether it's a bug or a feature CCP snuck in with a recent patch but I picked up a cloaked Nyx about week ago. I was doing exploration in our home system when a run on the Radar Quests showed a Nyx. I didn't believe my probes as the directional scan showed nothing and warped to the signature cloaked at 100km. There was no sign of the Nyx so I ran a second cycle on the probes. Same result: Nyx, signature was insanely strong (I think it was >1500 points), accuracy 0km, distance 101km. So by the result I was sitting right next to a cloaked mothership. And infact I was! Shortly after I started a 3rd cycle on the probes, still in disbelief, the Nyx uncloaked and jumped out of the system. If that's true then it's a little worrying. I don't remember CCP ever mentioning they were going to make Supercaps probable when cloaked o_O --- ---
Saint Luka The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:07:00 - [26] Edited by: Saint Luka on 01/10/2007 15:07:42 Originally by: Celeste Coeval Originally by: Saint Luka From the rate that Titans and Motherships are dieing is anyone else with me in the belief that a ship that requires so much logistics to build can be so easily killed in 0.0? easyyou call that easy Three smart dictor pilots, a 20man BS gang with remote reps/neuts, Yes, easy :/ Edit: Motherships dont really have that much better a tank than the carrier counterpart. -
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:10:00 - [27] Originally by: Saint Luka Edited by: Saint Luka on 01/10/2007 15:07:42 Originally by: Celeste Coeval Originally by: Saint Luka From the rate that Titans and Motherships are dieing is anyone else with me in the belief that a ship that requires so much logistics to build can be so easily killed in 0.0? easyyou call that easy Three smart dictor pilots, a 20man BS gang with remote reps/neuts, Yes, easy :/ Edit: Motherships dont really have that much better a tank than the carrier counterpart. not that easy my friend, yu need cov ops, patience and the ability to lure your enemy into a false sense of security. Titans dont go pop often. Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Marus Safeld Caldari Trojans Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:10:00 - [28] If I had a mothership to replicate the scenario I'd do so but since I don't we'll have to wait for someone else to do it. Like I said, I am not sure whether it's a bug or not. When I told a friend about it he mentioned a rumor about 1 of the exploration probes being able to pick up cloaked ships. But he couldn't tell which type so make of it whatever you think... For me it was the most freaky encounter I ever had in Eve so far.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Asestorian If that's true then it's a little worrying. I don't remember CCP ever mentioning they were going to make Supercaps probable when cloaked o_O Yet that would be a nice thing. Supercaps are meant to be the center-pieces of a fleet, not solo ships. And a ship that size being able to cloak is ridiculous. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
DOARota Gallente Drones Of Annihilation. Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:14:00 - [30] From Evil Thug's post it wasn't that easy. The safe spot was actually busted before downtime, the cov ops pilot barely scanned it, and the spot was used again the next day. I believe Seleene stated that the Titan logged in and cloaked instead of warping to a friendly pos right away. Considering that it can pretty much kill everything on grid that hasn't nerfed it's combat capability by tanking for it specifically, with the press of a button,it should require a massive support fleet and a very viable means to kill it.

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