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Was the super capital nerf too much?

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Saint Luka The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.01 13:33:00 - [1] Whilst i realise this thread will probobly be bombarded with anti-capital mails please remember this is not a whine, my alliance hasn't lost any super capitals and i have never lost a standard capital myself. From the rate that Titans and Motherships are dieing is anyone else with me in the belief that a ship that requires so much logistics to build can be so easily killed in 0.0? Whilst these ships should never be deployed without the correct support to back it up the fact that these super capitals can be held in one place by a simple interdictor bubble is maybe a little bit overpowered? Not two days ago did we have two Nyx's die in the same day, along with a titan the day before that. Whilst these ships are being built more frequently with the Soveignty changes and alliances becoming more wealthy it is certainly a harsh ISK sink. I realise these ships are more than just PVP mobiles, with a titan being able to jump bridge ships/freighters/capitals and a mothership being able to transport upto 450k M3 when properly setup (Honour tank not included). The fact of the matter is that if you field one of these ships vurses a well organised alliance it will die, no question. Whilst i believe they were overpowered before the patch with no actual ability of holding one down apart from neuting it too hell and back now it has come to a point where its beyond stupid at the rate these are dieing, and 90% of the time it isn't just pilot's error. A possibility to solving this problem would be a capital warp scrambler, whilst people may not like this idea as people would not want to use up a med/high slot with one of these beasts instead of flaming this thread if you could contribute possible ideas to a "counter nerf" that would be great. Please note: I am not refering to low sec super capitals, strictly 0.0 -
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.10.01 13:40:00 - [2] Did another Titan pilot die?
Asestorian Minmatar Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.10.01 13:41:00 - [3] The main reason they are dying so much recently is that people are starting to realise how they work. People have been watching what SuperCap pilots do with their ships, and making tactics accordingly. Through this they can lay out a nice trap. Motherships tend to die if the pilot is bored and just goes and attacks a random target, which happens to be bait for a trap. The MS doesn't always have a lot of support, and goes down in the end. Titans just have ****weak tanks, and tend to die if left alone without the support of 40 carriers remote repping all the time. I think that, considering the size, Titans are a little too easy to kill perhaps, but overall I think things are ok. We're probably going to start seeing these things used less and less though, as people have no choice but to be ridiculously careful with their ship. The tactics for taking them down are being refined to a crazy level now. --- ---
Saint Luka The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.01 13:41:00 - [4] Originally by: Vitrael Did another Titan pilot die? I was refering to Seleene in MC's Ragnarok, still, stay on topic please :D -
Jaikar Isillia Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.01 13:42:00 - [5] Ships die, they come and they go. There has to be a very careful balance with the capital ships and I feel that CCP has found this at the moment. At the moment they are formidable ships being able to command great firepower however they also do not diminish the value and more importantly the roles of other classes of ships.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.01 13:55:00 - [6] They're not dieing so fast because they're too vulnerable, but because so many people are so intent on killing them.
Saint Luka The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:00:00 - [7] Edited by: Saint Luka on 01/10/2007 14:00:50 Well if people are so intent on killing them maybe they can bring in a module specifically for this purpose instead of interdictors? It would not affect anything on actually killing them and it means it requires planning to do it / I propose these having mid/high PG so you cannot just put them on a frig/destroyer and also it would tackle the age old problem of low sec gate camping motherships. -
ponieus Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:02:00 - [8] my personal feeling is nothing below a capitol should be able to bump and move such a massive ship out of alignment for warp. other than that the ship and mechanics work perfect. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Auron Shadowbane Teeth Of The Hydra R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:03:00 - [9] they die so much cause fitting a cap repair on a mothership/titan is like fitting a medium armor repair on a battleship. give them super-capital repairs so they can tank whole fleets on their own ^^
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:04:00 - [10] I made a thread about this the other night here. Quote: So, Were CCP right to absolutely nerf supercaps like this? From one point, of course they were. It's restricted the use of supercaps exclusively to the huge blobs of 0.0 (or lowsec gates, assuming x13 aren't about) - almost all the supercaps we've seen killed are ones that have been isolated from their support fleets (assuming they had one) and taken out before help could arrive. However, this spreads blobs, which isn't a good thing. On that note, i was thinking. Supercaps are a massive investment, that are currently nigh on useless for anything other than use as undampable carriers, or glorified taxis. Considering the investment involved in one of these things, this is ridiculous. Their use should not have been so altered by what is a very simple change to a small, cheap ship. The first change that sprung to my mind, if a little dreamish, is to give supercapitals a station service-esque target for their jump drive, and allow them to jump inside bubbles again (but NOT warp). This means that the dictor changes from the absolute anti-supercap tools, to an element of an anti-supercap force. You're going to need dread forces, gank BSes and whatever else in there to take out its jump drive before it can jump away to safety, all the while relying on your dictors to prevent it warping away. The second one that came to mind was to give supercaps the ability to jump in bubbles, but at a higher cap requirement, for the sake of argument; 90%. This means that instead of having the destroy a ship service as in the first suggestion, you have to use a more conventional anti-capital tactic and neutralise the ship's capacitor, ASWELL as utilising dictors to hold it in place to prevent warp, and to eventually prevent jump once the ship is below a certain level of cap. This also means support fleets can help their supercap to jump out by transfering capacitor, instead of attempting the ridiculously futile task of smartbombing dictor bubbles while dodging the hostile fleet. Basically, i'd simply like to see the dictor bubble changed from an absolute method of holding down any supercap, to simply one element of holding it down. Preferably coupled with something that only a large fleet, or supremely organised medium-sized fleet could do.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:09:00 - [11] They should die even faster!! Battles were there are so many super capitals that they are he backbone of the fighting force are not fun and stupid. Hopefully the Dictor Cruiser will make super capitals drop like flies. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:13:00 - [12] Originally by: Saint Luka Edited by: Saint Luka on 01/10/2007 14:00:50 Well if people are so intent on killing them maybe they can bring in a module specifically for this purpose instead of interdictors? It would not affect anything on actually killing them and it means it requires planning to do it / I propose these having mid/high PG so you cannot just put them on a frig/destroyer and also it would tackle the age old problem of low sec gate camping motherships. They fitted an Interdictor so it could survive the Ragnarok's DD blast. You don't think that's quite a bit of planning and preparation there? Not to mention how insanely lucky that Cov Ops pilot was to find the Titan's safe spot even though he warped to it and cloaked instantly.
Saint Luka The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:16:00 - [13] Edited by: Saint Luka on 01/10/2007 14:16:26 I was not penalising that kill in general, the titan has such a massive signature radius its totally Seleene's fault, however that is a post for COAD :). I mean in general with the current state of atleast one of these monsters going down weekly. -
Marus Safeld Caldari Trojans Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:16:00 - [14] I can't tell about Titans really but motherships in my opinion are fine as they are. The interdictors don't kill the mothership. They merely keep it from escaping... and even that is a pretty hard job. Our frigate gang had 2 interdictors with them when they found the Morsus Mihi Nyx. Yet, if he have had been able to use his jumpdrive (I am not sure whether a cyno jammer prevents outgoing jumps too or if he just couldn't find a pilot to cyno him out) he could have escaped three times before the reinforcments arrived. Also, he did not have ANY utility drones at all. Webbers and energy vampires are extremely helpful when trying to take out small ships. Personaly, I have used them twice to bail my Chimera out. The main problem with the supercaps in my opinion is, that many pilots who fly them believe they are immune to anything smaller than a capital ship simply because their ships are so big and expensive.
Barthezz Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:17:00 - [15] I am biased on this as I have a Nyx myself, but I do tend to agree that their a bit too easy to kill at this moment. People shout that you shouldnt use them without the proper support. My question then is, what is proper support? Is proper support 10 other people? Is it 20? Is it 30? 100? etc. Where does it end and at that point, does a mothership really have that big of an effect to justify its cost? This is mainly aimed at motherships as Titans are a bit different, simply because a titan has the ability to affect fleet sized combat. A mothership's role however, isnt that much different then a carrier. Its tank (usually) isnt that much better, etc. And with all the changes to dictor bubbles, its survivability really isnt that much higher then a normal carrier. Anyways I'll probably lose my Nyx in either some lag fest (you know the type where you go "I am sure I activated that module, why isnt it on yet" type lag) or a well laid trap, such is life. And with my luck, only after I lost it will it get a boost --- Dont be a victim of what I do to survive!
Marus Safeld Caldari Trojans Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:24:00 - [16] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Not to mention how insanely lucky that Cov Ops pilot was to find the Titan's safe spot even though he warped to it and cloaked instantly. I am not sure whether it's a bug or a feature CCP snuck in with a recent patch but I picked up a cloaked Nyx about week ago. I was doing exploration in our home system when a run on the Radar Quests showed a Nyx. I didn't believe my probes as the directional scan showed nothing and warped to the signature cloaked at 100km. There was no sign of the Nyx so I ran a second cycle on the probes. Same result: Nyx, signature was insanely strong (I think it was >1500 points), accuracy 0km, distance 101km. So by the result I was sitting right next to a cloaked mothership. And infact I was! Shortly after I started a 3rd cycle on the probes, still in disbelief, the Nyx uncloaked and jumped out of the system.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:27:00 - [17] Originally by: Barthezz My question then is, what is proper support? Is proper support 10 other people? Is it 20? Is it 30? 100? etc. 100 Ships like that should be the center of large fleets, not solo ships. Look at carriers in real life. They don't go anywhere without a large escort that can protect them against any threat and in a real war they could still die to a sneaky submarine captain or to a large enough force of longrange naval bombers flooding the air defenses of the carrier and its escorts with cruise missiles.
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:34:00 - [18] Edited by: Xilimyth Derlin on 01/10/2007 14:36:21 Two Nyx's went down... the question is, what defensive fleets did they have versus what the offensive fleet consisted of. I one case, if the Nyx was protected by one carrier and a few battleships versus a group of 20 or 30 players all in gank configuration with a fleet commander with half a level of competency, that SuperCap deserved to die, no if and's or buts. Yea, super caps are expensive, but they're not "soloownmobiles" as its been put a few times. As others have said, the same tactics these supercap pilots have been using are starting to be analyzed and seeing holes in them. Did interdiction spheres help this downfall, yes.... but it would have been done anyway at one point or another. Just with far more nos/neut ships, which leads to blobbing, insert vicious cycle here. Personally, 20 vs 3 odds... the super cap shouldn't escape even if it does cost 20b. In addition, the other reason these ships are going down with higher frequency is also just what you have said. There are more being built and just plain more out there. It's easier to pincer one super-cap at a time, then wait for a fleet to be built and try to nail 5 or 6 in formation at once.
Indigo Johnson Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:34:00 - [19] I would say supercaps are as close to balanced as is likely to be. Though some problems exist: - Lag and desynch from bumping of drones due to their large model in game: this will hopefully be sorted (or the effect lessened) with the new gfx engine coming in November. - People treating them as solopwnmobiles. Yes they are v powerful ships, but piloting them solo is (as we have seen with the RZR, MM and others) a good way of losing them. - Super cap pilots need more paranoia. Can't really think of any changes apart from: - Make the mothership and titan more like the mobile stations/ships they are meant to be, meaning being able to house battleships and have a better mechanism for pilots being able to clone jump to them. These logistical attributes are, after all i think, the main reasons for their introduction in game. Right ccp?
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:58:00 - [20] Originally by: Saint Luka From the rate that Titans and Motherships are dieing is anyone else with me in the belief that a ship that requires so much logistics to build can be so easily killed in 0.0? easyyou call that easy Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
James Duar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:58:00 - [21] They're balanced because a supercap by itself is actually a target now, rather then "hurf durf let's go elsewhere".
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:00:00 - [22] Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 01/10/2007 15:02:49 Originally by: ponieus my personal feeling is nothing below a capitol should be able to bump and move such a massive ship out of alignment for warp. other than that the ship and mechanics work perfect. you do realize that the titan can warp in seconds right? Nano titans can warp in fire DD and gtfo before you even know what happened. Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:00:00 - [23] Edited by: Amy Wang on 01/10/2007 15:00:59 If they are used in a proper way as centerpieces of large fleets with lots of support, remote repping carriers and point defense escorts I dont think they die easily at all. If they are used more or less solo or without proper support they die from time to time and rightly so.
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:01:00 - [24] Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 01/10/2007 15:01:35 double post? Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Asestorian Minmatar Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:01:00 - [25] Edited by: Asestorian on 01/10/2007 15:03:08 Originally by: Marus Safeld Originally by: Reem Fairchild Not to mention how insanely lucky that Cov Ops pilot was to find the Titan's safe spot even though he warped to it and cloaked instantly. I am not sure whether it's a bug or a feature CCP snuck in with a recent patch but I picked up a cloaked Nyx about week ago. I was doing exploration in our home system when a run on the Radar Quests showed a Nyx. I didn't believe my probes as the directional scan showed nothing and warped to the signature cloaked at 100km. There was no sign of the Nyx so I ran a second cycle on the probes. Same result: Nyx, signature was insanely strong (I think it was >1500 points), accuracy 0km, distance 101km. So by the result I was sitting right next to a cloaked mothership. And infact I was! Shortly after I started a 3rd cycle on the probes, still in disbelief, the Nyx uncloaked and jumped out of the system. If that's true then it's a little worrying. I don't remember CCP ever mentioning they were going to make Supercaps probable when cloaked o_O --- ---
Saint Luka The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:07:00 - [26] Edited by: Saint Luka on 01/10/2007 15:07:42 Originally by: Celeste Coeval Originally by: Saint Luka From the rate that Titans and Motherships are dieing is anyone else with me in the belief that a ship that requires so much logistics to build can be so easily killed in 0.0? easyyou call that easy Three smart dictor pilots, a 20man BS gang with remote reps/neuts, Yes, easy :/ Edit: Motherships dont really have that much better a tank than the carrier counterpart. -
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:10:00 - [27] Originally by: Saint Luka Edited by: Saint Luka on 01/10/2007 15:07:42 Originally by: Celeste Coeval Originally by: Saint Luka From the rate that Titans and Motherships are dieing is anyone else with me in the belief that a ship that requires so much logistics to build can be so easily killed in 0.0? easyyou call that easy Three smart dictor pilots, a 20man BS gang with remote reps/neuts, Yes, easy :/ Edit: Motherships dont really have that much better a tank than the carrier counterpart. not that easy my friend, yu need cov ops, patience and the ability to lure your enemy into a false sense of security. Titans dont go pop often. Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Marus Safeld Caldari Trojans Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:10:00 - [28] If I had a mothership to replicate the scenario I'd do so but since I don't we'll have to wait for someone else to do it. Like I said, I am not sure whether it's a bug or not. When I told a friend about it he mentioned a rumor about 1 of the exploration probes being able to pick up cloaked ships. But he couldn't tell which type so make of it whatever you think... For me it was the most freaky encounter I ever had in Eve so far.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Asestorian If that's true then it's a little worrying. I don't remember CCP ever mentioning they were going to make Supercaps probable when cloaked o_O Yet that would be a nice thing. Supercaps are meant to be the center-pieces of a fleet, not solo ships. And a ship that size being able to cloak is ridiculous. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
DOARota Gallente Drones Of Annihilation. Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:14:00 - [30] From Evil Thug's post it wasn't that easy. The safe spot was actually busted before downtime, the cov ops pilot barely scanned it, and the spot was used again the next day. I believe Seleene stated that the Titan logged in and cloaked instead of warping to a friendly pos right away. Considering that it can pretty much kill everything on grid that hasn't nerfed it's combat capability by tanking for it specifically, with the press of a button,it should require a massive support fleet and a very viable means to kill it.
Other Ideas Honor Tanking Cargo Cult	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:16:00 - [31] Originally by: Saint Luka I realise these ships are more than just PVP mobiles, with a titan being able to jump bridge ships/freighters/capitals and a mothership being able to transport upto 450k M3 when properly setup (Honour tank not included) How dare you!
Cotton Tail Domination. League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:16:00 - [32] The recent spate of supercapital kills has nothing to do with them being too easy to kill, the changes were for the best, interdictors are the ships ARE the 'module' you bring when you want to take and attempt to kill one. I don't know why people get so annoyed by them, and certainly the argument that it should take a capital ship to kill a super cap, we'll it's just absurd, it's very much against the general gameplay of EVE where groups of smaller ships have the advantage over the sole super ship. The only thing that I think needs to be changed is the bumping mechanism, it's far too sensitive at the moment, supercapitals shouldn't be easily bumped out of alignment by ships many many times smaller than themselves. The reason for the recent load of kills though is really down to a couple of things, number one, theres a whole lot more of them out there now days than in the beginning, they're no longer the play things of the elite of the elite, rather a reward for the richer long term members of alliances able to field one. This leads to the second point, that we're starting to see some really stupid players get into these ships, the MM loss of the Nyx with no real tank and mining uplinks for example, that's ship wasn't setup for a fight, and clearly giving that pilot the ship was a mistake, you shouldn't be considering buffing ships just because people can't fly them properly. Then we have the preperation that goes into the death of these ships, few of them have been spontanious, the majority of the super cap kills have been the result of planning, infiltration and people bringing in overwhelming firepower at exactly the right moment. There is also a certain degree of luck, the MC titan loss for example, -A- were fortunate that they managed to probe out the safe spot, but as someone above me mentioned they were not fortunate that their dictor survived the clearing doomsday, they wen't to great lengths to prepare for that kill, they deserved it (and paid dearly for it with their own losses). And finally the lag monster consumes more souls than anything else in the game, it's inevitable these ships draw in big crowds, and sadly the state of the game means that pilots find themselves desycned/lagged to high heaven and unable to do much. That does suck, but certainly doesn't meant that the ships are too easy to kill, there's no way that CCP can really design them to be lag proof but balanced otherwise.
ponieus Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:17:00 - [33] Originally by: Celeste Coeval Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 01/10/2007 15:02:49 Originally by: ponieus my personal feeling is nothing below a capitol should be able to bump and move such a massive ship out of alignment for warp. other than that the ship and mechanics work perfect. you do realize that the titan can warp in seconds right? Nano titans can warp in fire DD and gtfo before you even know what happened. your point? Its just my veiw. I am sorry for having one. but I still stand by it. A ship of that size and weight should not be pushed out of alignment by anything less than a capitol ship. What stops you from fitting a carrier with nano's just for the sole purpose of super-cap bumping? Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Marus Safeld Caldari Trojans Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:19:00 - [34] Originally by: DOARota From Evil Thug's post it wasn't that easy. The safe spot was actually busted before downtime, the cov ops pilot barely scanned it, and the spot was used again the next day. I believe Seleene stated that the Titan logged in and cloaked instead of warping to a friendly pos right away. Considering that it can pretty much kill everything on grid that hasn't nerfed it's combat capability by tanking for it specifically, with the press of a button,it should require a massive support fleet and a very viable means to kill it. Yeah, he probably used recon probes scanning the spot down the moment the pilot logged off (ship stays in space for just a good few seconds longer than a well trained pilot needs to analyze a recon probe.) But like I said: I was acutaly doing exploration and had no idea about the presence of a mothership in our system. (Saw 2 Read Alliance pilots in local but didn't really mind them.) Even if it's not a bug I wouldn't expect it to have too much impact on supercap warfare simply because exploration probes take a bloody long time to analyze. (Almost 5 minutes for me.)
Ishtar1 Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:22:00 - [35] personaly iv always felt that dictor bubbles stopping super-caps is rather harsh maybe the dictor crusier could have this role and take away the ability from normal dictor bubbles i dunno
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:26:00 - [36] Originally by: ponieus Originally by: Celeste Coeval Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 01/10/2007 15:02:49 Originally by: ponieus my personal feeling is nothing below a capitol should be able to bump and move such a massive ship out of alignment for warp. other than that the ship and mechanics work perfect. you do realize that the titan can warp in seconds right? Nano titans can warp in fire DD and gtfo before you even know what happened. your point? Its just my veiw. I am sorry for having one. but I still stand by it. A ship of that size and weight should not be pushed out of alignment by anything less than a capitol ship. What stops you from fitting a carrier with nano's just for the sole purpose of super-cap bumping? aaa capital CAPITAL.. not capitol!!! We have no building on those battles!!! And BS are the only thing that can have any speed to make any bump. Capital ships will never bumb anything other than by miracle. Without bumping the super capitals ARE un-killable in low sec. The dead mothership that died in low sec only died because of bumping. And ANY mothership without at least 2 carriers and half dozen support ships as escorts deserve to die. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
DOARota Gallente Drones Of Annihilation. Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:31:00 - [37] Risk vs Reward A Titan can kill an entire battleship fleet in one keystroke.If an alliance fields multiple Titans it can get silly real fast. Titans have been used to nuke small camps to large fleets.The cost of the DD needs to increase ten fold. Make Titans immune to a dictor bubble but instead treat the DD as a cyno field is. Hold it in place for 10-15 minutes after detonation thus requiring a massive support fleet to accompany it.
ponieus Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:31:00 - [38] Originally by: Kagura Nikon aaa capital CAPITAL.. not capitol!!! We have no building on those battles!!! And BS are the only thing that can have any speed to make any bump. Capital ships will never bumb anything other than by miracle. Without bumping the super capitals ARE un-killable in low sec. The dead mothership that died in low sec only died because of bumping. And ANY mothership without at least 2 carriers and half dozen support ships as escorts deserve to die. so other than my bad spelling You in a sense agree that "Super Caps" should be displaced by a bump from a smaller ship than a bs? never said a super cap without support should live dunno why you put that in there Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Cotton Tail Domination. League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:31:00 - [39] Originally by: Kagura Nikon And BS are the only thing that can have any speed to make any bump. Capital ships will never bumb anything other than by miracle. Without bumping the super capitals ARE un-killable in low sec. The dead mothership that died in low sec only died because of bumping. And ANY mothership without at least 2 carriers and half dozen support ships as escorts deserve to die. That one was also killed because he didn't have his cyno char ready to jump out at a moments notice, that was really his downfall. And it's not really a set number of ships required to field a mothership, EVE isn't designed that way. Numbers win, it's inevitable. Certainly super caps are tough ships, but they're not meant to solo fleets of the enemy, they should be used as support and a massive pool of firepower, but they can't survive on their own for long against a determined opponent. Having capital remote repping on them is always good though, there's only so much dps they can soak up on their own.
Maximor Fifth Exiled Legion Ground Zeero	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:36:00 - [40] I think the current changes are good for balancing super caps. I do agree with the guy who said that Titans are probably a easier to kill than they should be. But even then, they are being built at a basically increasing rate. If they never died, eventually, they would be as common as carriers and dreads are. Think about the battle impact a five titan DD would have.(I hear that's already been done, btw.) If you hold a unix shell up to your ear, can you still hear the c: ?
Maltitol Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:56:00 - [41] ... i somewhat agree... the fact that a small destroyer type ship (roughly the size of a small village) can stop a ship the size of an entire solar orbit is not a good thing. If a titan ran into a destroyer, the destroyer should automatically go POP, just like teh satellite in independance day... but reality is out of the question with most things... a BS to stop a titan is more reasonable...
Peanut Swsh Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:57:00 - [42] Edited by: Peanut Swsh on 01/10/2007 15:58:45 Easy to kill? Didn't RA/AAA lose 14 cap ships to kill that titan? Not exactly easy. The MM MS, that was just a poor decision to be out ratting/mining whatever in a MS. And iirc it was pretty poorly fitted? The other MS lost was the M.Pire one yeah? Well that was just great planning on x13's behalf, and failure of the Nyx pilot to have an emergency cyno. So no, Blobs kill Supercaps, which is expected. Stupidity also kills supercaps. Lack of preparation kills supercaps. Overconfidence kills supercaps. 3/4 of these things are the fault of the supercap pilots allowing themsselves to be killed. The fourth, well whats wrong with blobbing a supercap to kill it? edit I think one thing we can agree on is less lag! plz, pretty plz.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.01 16:18:00 - [43] Originally by: Maltitol ... i somewhat agree... the fact that a small destroyer type ship (roughly the size of a small village) can stop a ship the size of an entire solar orbit is not a good thing. If a titan ran into a destroyer, the destroyer should automatically go POP, just like teh satellite in independance day... but reality is out of the question with most things... a BS to stop a titan is more reasonable... your concept of scale is compeltely f up. A titan have a few kilometers only. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Barthezz Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.01 16:31:00 - [44] Originally by: Cotton Tail That one was also killed because he didn't have his cyno char ready to jump out at a moments notice, that was really his downfall. Who ever thought that the low-sec Nyx that got killed last week had even a prair of survival needs to get his head out of his behind. The moment he didnt jump out when 3-4 BS where on him was the moment he died, and ANY self respecting MS pilot does not run from 3-4 BS. There is no 'proper' support for a super capital, and anyone thinking that should also get their heads out of their behind. Why, you may ask. Well the answer is simple, a lot of the super capital kills where planned. And guess what, with planned kills the attacking party will always make sure that they have enough to kill the super capital. There is no support gang that will save you then, simply because the attacking party will make sure their gang is able to handle it. There's always exceptions, Helen's Aeon (the first MS) wasnt smart warping to 20+ dreads, Tyrrax got caught in a safespot with over 80+ known enemies around, Cole Minor got caught in a belt with a sucky setup and Retsej got caught in a safespot playing with his fittings. However, I actually see nothing really wrong with for example the way The End died, or Davlin Lotze. They fell for bait, people do it all day but for those it made the news as it concerns super capitals. You dont hear anything about the carriers that die in the same way. That said, I still think its too easy to kill super capitals. I think the best solution would be to buff up their tank. Because from all the vids that I saw from super caps dieing, and with the 2 MS that I personally helped kill. They all seem to die really really fast, not in proportion to their cost. The tank of a super cap should be, well, super. It shouldnt go down within a few minutes. Heck I have seen BS fights outlast the time some of the MS have lived. --- Dont be a victim of what I do to survive!
Maltitol Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 16:42:00 - [45] Edited by: Maltitol on 01/10/2007 16:47:03 Originally by: Kagura Nikon your concept of scale is compeltely f up. A titan have a few kilometers only. Eve Ships Size Comparison <-- LARGE IMAGE! Look in the lower left corner for the eifell tower.. titans are not on this picture, and a titan beside a cap ship is a huge difference... proove me wrong?
agent apple Applied Eugenics Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.01 16:54:00 - [46] Supercaps will always be massively unbalanced for their price tag, this is to prevent isk buying immortality. An estemel fitted rattler at the same price would die to alot less than whats needed to kill even a badly fitted mothership. Most moms lost have been lost by stupidity or rich but skilless industrialists, it paints and overly exagerated picture of how vulnerable these ships are. However (and im stealing this from sarmaul) make dictor bubbles targetable.
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.10.01 16:56:00 - [47] Edited by: General Apocalypse on 01/10/2007 16:57:05 Originally by: Kagura Nikon They should die even faster!! Battles were there are so many super capitals that they are he backbone of the fighting force are not fun and stupid. Hopefully the Dictor Cruiser will make super capitals drop like flies. Your wisdom on the forums has reached a peak level . Your posts have the IQ of the Gallente DD . So I'll give this drink . Seriously do you do anything else then trolling and and spiting silly ideas ? Try to be constructive for one it's not to hard . To the OP : The fat that a bubbles now stops a super cap both from warp and jump is a bit mistaken . Why ? Well let's take a look at this It's suppose to stop you from WARPING not jumping . My take on this would be either a jump drive scrambler that would be a capital only module or jump disrupt probe something that would go on the new cruiser sized dictor . Just my 2 cents . Originally by: CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz Originally by: CCP Oveur To the gankmobile!
Vandalias	Posted - 2007.10.01 16:58:00 - [48] Taking the general sentiment from the freighter w/ slots thread: FLY WITH SUPPORT If you get ganked its your own fault for not having enough support with you. /CCP must really love blobing...
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.10.01 17:08:00 - [49] I don't think they were nerfed to much. I think it was about right. Prior to the adjustment the only Titans that died where either offline (ASCN & D2) at the time of death or where not complete yet (LV). Since the time of the adjustments 2 have been destroyed.(BoB & MC) These two were destroyed while the pilot was online and actively engaged in the defense of the ship. Evil Thug's recent post really I think outlined how hard it really was. He thought he was dead in the early part of the battle based on what he posted, when he saw them hemming him in. A few seconds later in that early part and it would have been -A-s titan that died and not MCs. (Or possibly both would have been destroyed.) Evil Thug revealed that the specific fit of the interdictor that was used was created some time ago, a month or more, and that they had not yet had time to test their theory. He also revealed that the covert ops have been watching Seleene's movements as Thulsa Doom and had previously probed his location a few times but missed the opportunity. From Seleene's post we realize that she's running I think 3 clients, at the very least 2 clients. Her attention is divided. Had she been on just one client, the one piloting Armageddon Dawn then it is likely given the fit of that ship it would have survived as she would have immediately realized that the titan was in danger and gotten the heck out. So really the MC loss is a culmination of a lot of planning and a good bit of luck on AAA's part. Folks learned some new stuff. I'm sure that folks are already figuring out not only the fits needed to do some of this, but also what they might can do to counter that in the future. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.01 17:16:00 - [50] Originally by: ponieus Originally by: Kagura Nikon aaa capital CAPITAL.. not capitol!!! We have no building on those battles!!! And BS are the only thing that can have any speed to make any bump. Capital ships will never bumb anything other than by miracle. Without bumping the super capitals ARE un-killable in low sec. The dead mothership that died in low sec only died because of bumping. And ANY mothership without at least 2 carriers and half dozen support ships as escorts deserve to die. Smaller than BS i agree could be ignored. But BS bumping should remain. so other than my bad spelling You in a sense agree that "Super Caps" should be displaced by a bump from a smaller ship than a bs? never said a super cap without support should live dunno why you put that in there If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.01 17:19:00 - [51] Originally by: Maltitol Edited by: Maltitol on 01/10/2007 16:47:03 Originally by: Kagura Nikon your concept of scale is compeltely f up. A titan have a few kilometers only. Eve Ships Size Comparison <-- LARGE IMAGE! Look in the lower left corner for the eifell tower.. titans are not on this picture, and a titan beside a cap ship is a huge difference... proove me wrong? Get close to a titan in game. And Run along him at 1 km/s and see how long it takes to cross it. Its not that much. Titans are not so HUGE beside capital ships they are big compared to a dread but don make them look tiny. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Camber Tremodian Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 17:23:00 - [52] I think a more fair question would be.. how did they all die? Did ANY of them die in a fleet war? Nope. All of them died doing menial tasks.. like logging in, mining(mm), ratting, doing easy solo kills.. etc etc.. Maybe the solution here is to let them dock in stations. haha.
Hurricane	Posted - 2007.10.01 17:25:00 - [53] I see the nerf as a good thing, now they are vulnerable and must be used with support to survive. Two things strike me as odd however: 1) The tank on titans, they have massive ammounts of hp (which is fine) but their ability to repair seems very lacking. 2) The guns on titans are a joke. They do far less damage than a gank mega and then only to extremely large targets. That needs changing IMO. I'm not saying they should pwn fleets solo but they should at least have the option of fielding effective offensive weapons they get a bonus for.
DOARota Gallente Drones Of Annihilation. Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.10.01 17:37:00 - [54] "1) The tank on titans, they have massive ammounts of hp (which is fine) but their ability to repair seems very lacking." Lacking indeed. A nano-fit titan can align and warp really fast, just doesn't tank so well
Barthezz Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.01 18:05:00 - [55] Originally by: Camber Tremodian I think a more fair question would be.. how did they all die? Did ANY of them die in a fleet war? Nope. All of them died doing menial tasks.. like logging in, mining(mm), ratting, doing easy solo kills.. etc etc.. Maybe the solution here is to let them dock in stations. haha. Sedith, died in a fleet. Count TaSessine, died in a fleet. Ign0raMus, died in a fleet. Granted the attackers fleet was bigger, but guess what, if it was the other way around they wouldnt have died. But strangely enough, that would also have been the case with a 1b carrier. The thing is, the bigger the 'support' fleet gets (at least for motherships), the smaller the contribution of a 16b MS (or 25-30b with fittings) becomes and the more its contribution becomes nothing more but a expensive carrier. Also once the fleet gets bigger other things start to play a part, desync / lag, lets list: Gerontiq, showed up on his eve as being at a POS Sedith, CTD and (even though he was with a support fleet) died before he got back Protectories, CTD and died when he got back Helen, although he died a bit stupidly, he did also desync Once a gang reaches a certain size, how much does a MS really add to it? --- Dont be a victim of what I do to survive!
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.01 18:14:00 - [56] Originally by: Mecinia Lua Evil Thug's recent post really I think outlined how hard it really was. See, i don't think so. The time they pinned down the titan was the third time they'd managed to probe it. It was the only time they'd actually made a full-blown attempt at killing it, and they succeeded. All it took was a single doomsday-tanked interdictor (a ridiculous idea in itself) to hold it down after the DD.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.01 18:25:00 - [57] Originally by: Camber Tremodian I think a more fair question would be.. how did they all die? Did ANY of them die in a fleet war? Nope. All of them died doing menial tasks.. like logging in, mining(mm), ratting, doing easy solo kills.. etc etc.. Maybe the solution here is to let them dock in stations. haha. Well we killed an MC mothership and an ISS mothership in battle, they warped into battle and were overhelmed. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Zillazuki Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.10.01 19:13:00 - [58] Titans were a step too far anyway IMO; the ship designs should have stopped with the Mothership at the top of the food chain. I am glad they are getting popped and hope to see them phased out of Eve entirely.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.01 19:19:00 - [59] Originally by: Zillazuki Titans were a step too far anyway IMO; the ship designs should have stopped with the Mothership at the top of the food chain. I am glad they are getting popped and hope to see them phased out of Eve entirely. Kind of have to agree. They are senseless weaposn that add no good thing to the game, but a giant e-peen. Ships with no love for fun. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.10.01 19:31:00 - [60] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Mecinia Lua Evil Thug's recent post really I think outlined how hard it really was. See, i don't think so. The time they pinned down the titan was the third time they'd managed to probe it. It was the only time they'd actually made a full-blown attempt at killing it, and they succeeded. All it took was a single doomsday-tanked interdictor (a ridiculous idea in itself) to hold it down after the DD. THe probing of the titan was only a small part of the overall steps needed. It is exceedingly difficult. The thing I see is that in the last 2 titan deaths, Shrike and Doom, the Titans were alone at the beginning of the battle. Anytime someone posts about their freighter getting popped in Empire or something you see folks immediately point out they should have used scouts or escorts. At the same time we don't see that mentioned for Titans. The same principle applies. In both cases had the Titans not been alone then it is likely they could have escaped. Another problem is one that we commonly see with macroers and such. Where one person is controlling one or more ships. Almost all of the titan pilots have multiple accounts. I don't blame them staying in a big target all the time would not be fun. At the same time we have to realise that just like when the macroer misses you flipping his can. When our attention is spread out over several actions we miss critical data. Seleene's loss was the result of a formulated plan and an extraordinary amount of luck really. One thing is interesting, after Shrike's death, noone killed another titan the same way. And I doubt this trick will work again as I'm sure BoB and MC will adapt. In finding out now before the cruiser interdictors arrive it gives you a bit more time to prepare. Cruiser Interdictor, Black Op Battleships and several of the other new ship types are going to really change the face of warfare. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
xHomicide Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 19:36:00 - [61] Edited by: xHomicide on 01/10/2007 19:39:12 I would argue that they are dieing at a much slower rate than they are being produced. With that said the rate at which they are dieing is perfectly acceptable, what is not acceptable is how they die. With the current design of super capitals they are overly susceptible to broken game mechanics and encourage absolutely **** gameplay. In all honesty, titans should have 100x the buffer they currently have and doomsday should render it immobile for 2 minute. Furthermore, jump bridge should allow for anyone in gang within 5AU to jump to the titans current location. Oh...and you shouldn't be able to jump bridge capitals into a cyno jammed system. Yes that still means people could offline the cyno jammer and get capitals into their own system. --- Razor CEI
0mega GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.01 20:49:00 - [62] I've been a Nyx pilot since May, and I have to say that I think the nerfs have put supercaps in their correct place. They are alliance flagships, and as such should be supported by the relevant escorts rather than being solo-pwnmobiles like in pre-Rev2. I have a few minor tweaks and issues in mind to make them perfect though. First, dictors are extremely common in 0.0 warfare now. With the T2 prices crashes and dictor bubbles interrupting warp changes this year, a supercapital can be held down by a cheap, throwaway ship for a finite time period, regardless of if the dictor is killed or not. I'd like to see a more expensive T2 warp disruption probe designed for tackling supercaps, with the existing one being made less effective against them. And of course the serious issue with supercapitals and support fleets remains as lag. Massive fights in the vein of RSF vs GBC in ZID-LE and 2-RSC last week have the potential to be so strategic and entertaining. Taking down scores of supporting escort carriers before finally assaulting the flagship supercapitals is exactly what Eve is meant to be. Unfortunately in pracice its more of a cointoss as to which sides dictors lag the least and if a capital pilot had the foresight to hit warp 5-10mins before it was necessary. Meh.
Saint Luka The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.02 09:31:00 - [63] Edited by: Saint Luka on 02/10/2007 09:34:33 OK lets take titans out of the equation for a bit. Whilst i agree that Titans could do with better tank/resists due to thier size/role these ships justify there pricetag by the logistical ability and gang bonuses. A Mothership however even tho you do receive the EW bonus and a slot or two extra isn't really that much better then its carrier counterpart, and at mineral cost you can buy 20 carriers for the cost of a nyx. Either beef the motherships damage ability (five extra fighters with max skills isn't exactly amazing.) or give them better base resists (however this would make the aeon exceptionally scary.) Edit: maybe these "improvements" may be a little out of the water and would create imbalanced gameplay but i am just trying to supply idea's that might be a solution to the current warefare state. Failing a beef to these ships i agree with what some people have said in this thread regarding a capital jump drive scrambler. Whilst a dictor bubble should be able to stop a ship from warping from an RP POV it should not stop one locking onto another cyno/jumping. -
Gilbert Drillerson DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.02 11:57:00 - [64] Motherships in low sec is unkillable unless the pilot is an idiot... that should get nerfed silly tbh. With regards to the rest of supercapitals i honestly believe they are balanced, it does require a lot of firepower and planning to take one down.. which is the way it should be. Dont get mad - Get even
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.10.02 11:58:00 - [65] ehhh NO.. it didn't it was badly made from the start and still are
Barthezz Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.02 12:00:00 - [66] Well I think outright increasing the resists of super caps might create severe balance issues with the two tank super caps (e.g. Aeon and Wyvern). However I do think they need to be able to withstand more pounding. That said, ET said it best on another forum: Quote: Motherships needs their own niche, and needs it badly. Currently 1 Nyx isnt much better then 2 Thanatos (2 Thanatos can tank better, do more damage, etc, down side is you need 2 pilots). I personally feel that, at this moment, a MS is much better suited for small gang warfare then (what some say) an alliance flagship. Simply because 1-4MS doesnt add much to a 100-200 man gang (or a 50 man capital gang). --- Dont be a victim of what I do to survive!
Barthezz Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.02 12:02:00 - [67] Originally by: Gilbert Drillerson it does require a lot of firepower and planning to take one down No it doesnt. Even a well tanked Aeon can 'only' tank about 10k dps (a Nyx can at most tank around 5k dps). "But if it has support it is hard to take down", is that MS harder to take down compared to a normal carrier in the same gang? --- Dont be a victim of what I do to survive!
Odda Gallente Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.10.02 12:05:00 - [68] They need a buff again, i have killed 2 moterships now and, it was way to easy isk\risk vice, This is in 0.0 Stil think you shuld need a lot more then a small dictor bubble to hold down a supercap IN low sec they culd stil use a nerf.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.10.02 12:18:00 - [69] Originally by: Barthezz Well I think outright increasing the resists of super caps might create severe balance issues with the two tank super caps (e.g. Aeon and Wyvern). However I do think they need to be able to withstand more pounding. That said, ET said it best on another forum: Quote: Motherships needs their own niche, and needs it badly. Currently 1 Nyx isnt much better then 2 Thanatos (2 Thanatos can tank better, do more damage, etc, down side is you need 2 pilots). I personally feel that, at this moment, a MS is much better suited for small gang warfare then (what some say) an alliance flagship. Simply because 1-4MS doesnt add much to a 100-200 man gang (or a 50 man capital gang). To me a Mothership really is just a Carrier. We choose to call the level 3 carrier a Mothership but in essence its still a carrier. Thus as those here have pointed out its not that much better than a level 1 carrier. If it was a battleship we'd look at it as the Maelstrom while say the Thanatos was the Typhoon. That's about the amount of change that is reasonable. I do like the idea of introducing a tiered system of warp disruption probes and such. I think it would be better to have thinks like Capital Warp Scrambler, Capital Warp Disrupter, Capital Webber, Capital Warp Disruption Drone etc. I agree with several folks that that would have been the better route to go. (In this sense Capital is what it can effect not necessarily what can use it, I'd porbably fix it in pg/cpu fitting such that nothing smaller than a cruiser could do it :)) Another area of examination might be to look at the cost of building a mothership. I've not really paid as much attention to them as titans, but given the cost of a mothership over a normal carrier I'd say something was out of whack with that system. The parts needed to build the mothership probably need to be adjusted down to bring it more in line. I believe the titan is fine as I indicated in my previous post :). Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Barthezz Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.02 12:23:00 - [70] Originally by: Mecinia Lua Another area of examination might be to look at the cost of building a mothership. Cant really make a MS cheaper without severely ****ing off current MS owners though. --- Dont be a victim of what I do to survive!
Recluse Viramor Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.02 12:30:00 - [71] The problem with dictors tackling super capitals will only be exemplified when the new cruiser dictors are released. CCP needs to add a capital warp scrambling module and that alone should be able to tackle supercaps.
Moon Kitten GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.10.02 12:48:00 - [72] Was the super capital nerf too much? No, it was not too much. It is not true that certain death awaits every super cap fielded against an organized alliance. All you have to do is think hard about your next move in order to not lose it. Given the power of these super caps it is not unreasonable to expect that there is a certain risk when it comes to utilizing this power. The reason why these super caps die is because the people flying them are humans. They make mistakes, do not take enough precautions when flying them. Humans are the weakest link as they should be. This applies to all ships but becomes more apparent when everyone in eve is following your every move. No ship should have god mode. I don't know what it's like in BoB and, frankly, the more I work with them directly the less I am starting to care. -Seleene, [BDCI] <MC>
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:18:00 - [73] Originally by: Saint Luka Edited by: Saint Luka on 01/10/2007 14:00:50 Well if people are so intent on killing them maybe they can bring in a module specifically for this purpose instead of interdictors? It would not affect anything on actually killing them and it means it requires planning to do it / I propose these having mid/high PG so you cannot just put them on a frig/destroyer and also it would tackle the age old problem of low sec gate camping motherships. An interdictor is a ship designed with holding things down as its main purpose, it is not that quick to get in to (slower than the module you suggest would likely be) and its not like its great at much else. --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz, 2GB Gskill DDR2 5400 @ 800mhh 4-4-4-12, Abit fatality mATX F-I90HD @ 334mhz, 8800GTS 320mb 2x250GB 7200.10s Raid 0, Vista 64 Home.
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:20:00 - [74] Edited by: Arana Tellen on 02/10/2007 17:20:50 Originally by: Recluse Viramor The problem with dictors tackling super capitals will only be exemplified when the new cruiser dictors are released. CCP needs to add a capital warp scrambling module and that alone should be able to tackle supercaps. Dont smart bombs destroy dictor bubbles? Also why should tackling big ships be relegated to big ships? A small ship with decently high skills required seems fine to me [:p Without this ability dictors would be much less popular as anchorable bubbles would rule, remove them and maybe we can talk about nerfing interdictors --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz, 2GB Gskill DDR2 5400 @ 800mhh 4-4-4-12, Abit fatality mATX F-I90HD @ 334mhz, 8800GTS 320mb 2x250GB 7200.10s Raid 0, Vista 64 Home.
Rhaegor Stormborn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:37:00 - [75] No it was not. They should not be all powerful ships. It is good to see them die. Rhaegor Stormborn Fleet Admiral - Pestilent Industries Amalgamated [PIA] Recruitment Thread
Nobuo213 Gallente Mutually Assured Destruction Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:52:00 - [76] Someone needs to take CCP's nerfbat and throw it into a incinerator.
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.10.02 18:07:00 - [77] Originally by: ponieus Originally by: Kagura Nikon aaa capital CAPITAL.. not capitol!!! We have no building on those battles!!! And BS are the only thing that can have any speed to make any bump. Capital ships will never bumb anything other than by miracle. Without bumping the super capitals ARE un-killable in low sec. The dead mothership that died in low sec only died because of bumping. And ANY mothership without at least 2 carriers and half dozen support ships as escorts deserve to die. so other than my bad spelling You in a sense agree that "Super Caps" should be displaced by a bump from a smaller ship than a bs? never said a super cap without support should live dunno why you put that in there No, I think you need to take a physics class. F = MA This formula shows that the force applied is equal to the mass of the object times its acceleration. This is why a bullet is more lethal than a sledgehammer.
Kannuk	Posted - 2007.10.03 01:48:00 - [78] I have never seen or fought a titan, but I do keep a close watch in youtube, killmails, and forums. I think the idea of bumping being a "valid tactic" is a ridiculous oversight in the game mechanic. I agree with those who say that instead of needing faulty game mechanics we should have a real way of defeating them and their escape capabilities. I also think that titans and mses should be rightfully powerful, they should do more then a pathetic amount of damage with their guns. the simplest equation is damage/tank. if you do more damage to the enemy than they can tank, you win, if you tank more damage than they output, you win. seems pretty simple but that means you can make them a glass cannon or a meatshield. if they do both equally well, but neither great, then they are still balanced. if they do both great, they are not, and if they do neither great they're a waste of time and resources. if their defenses are nerfed they should get the powerful weapons to compensate, since we all know they are underpowered in that regard. then they can actually be useful in a fleet as their power isnt highly diminished next to having a few well fitted dreads. they should have a place and it seems they are losing it and becoming a logistics slug instead of either a power tanking moderate weapon, or highpower weapon moderate tanking platform.
Cosmo Raata Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.03 02:52:00 - [79] I have only 2 issues really. 1. Bumping. (I know they said they plan on fixing this, but lets be honest, I expect this fix to take years) a) Anything less than or equal to a battleship in mass should have no ability to bump & move a super cap. An Avatar is 14.4 times heavier than an Abaddon. This would be the equivalent of a 200 lb man running full speed at his SUV, running into it & expecting it to move. Granted the SUV has friction and gravity on its side, a ship the size of an Avatar (if it were real) likely would have thrusters all over the damn thing to stabilize it. b) Same example. Now, pick your favorite street or freeway, pick a moving vehicle & start running toward it, you may pick whatever angle you wish to take upon it. Tell me you wont get hurt, or "damaged" in this case, by running your dumb ass into it. Inties, Dictors, Cruisers, BS's, it doesn't matter, hell, even other caps. If CCP wants bumping in the game, then damage should be assessed, period. 2. DDD Until they can fix bumping, one should be allowed to jump out after a DDD firing (assuming cap is recharged enough). Dictor bubbles hold them in place whether its to warp or jump. Apparently people are fitting dictors to tank DDD explosions therefore this shouldn't be a problem for those that are prepared to take one down. Cruiser sized Dictors are coming, which means 1 DDD explosion potentially will not kill any of them. I understand that remote detonation was too much (no risk, high reward), but the DDD takes cap, enough to prevent a jumpout, therefore why make it so you need to have such a stupid penalty? If they ever fix bumping then so be it, put this feature back into the game, but as of now its pointless.
Xaldor	Posted - 2007.10.03 03:02:00 - [80] Edited by: Xaldor on 03/10/2007 03:02:46 All they need to do is change bumping so it is a factor of speed and mass, if you run a frigate into a Titan it should bounce off and do nothing to the Titan. They should also add in significant damage from ramming, especially for the ship that bounces. Only another capital ship should have the force to move a titan. All the non-capital ships lack the mass, they would need to hit at a very high speed and they should do catastrophic damage to their ship hitting a brick wall at that speed.
Fehnrail Caldari Colossus Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.03 03:54:00 - [81] Originally by: Maltitol Edited by: Maltitol on 01/10/2007 16:47:03 Originally by: Kagura Nikon your concept of scale is compeltely f up. A titan have a few kilometers only. Eve Ships Size Comparison <-- LARGE IMAGE! Look in the lower left corner for the eifell tower.. titans are not on this picture, and a titan beside a cap ship is a huge difference... proove me wrong? Titans are about 10 km long. In your previous post, you have stated them to be 'the size of the entire solar orbit'. The diameter of earth's solar orbit is roughly 2AU, or just about three hundred million kilometers. A titan is not three hundred million kilometers long. ...I am a part of all that I have met, Yet all experience is an arch wherethro' Shines that untravell'd world, whose margin fades For ever and for ever as I move...
Gusy	Posted - 2007.10.03 04:50:00 - [82] Just because a few of them have died doesn't mean they are "easy to kill". It often takes quite a bit of planning and a large resource commitment to knock one out. If they are properly supported the attacking fleet will generally take heavy losses whilst taking one down. There's still a big risk in attacking one, as long as it isn't ratting or something stupid.
Torze The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.03 05:28:00 - [83] Edited by: Torze on 03/10/2007 05:28:07 The bumping is insane. My suggestion would be for CCP to create a high slot moduled weapon that basically energizes your hull. So that if a ship physically touches yours it takes damage. I am kinda torn on the interdictors though. On one hand, I see they are made to keeping ships from warping out, on the other hand..man, a cheap T2 frigate holds down a 20+bil ship. So, I can certainly see making it so only the cruiser sized interdictors could hold down a jumpdrive. BTW, I gotta say though, if you are ratting or mining in a mothership/titan..you deserve to lose the damned thing. They should be extremely tough to kill in their element which is fleet battles.
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente Omniscient Order Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.03 06:53:00 - [84] Originally by: Cosmo Raata 2. DDD Until they can fix bumping, one should be allowed to jump out after a DDD firing (assuming cap is recharged enough)... but the DDD takes cap, enough to prevent a jumpout, therefore why make it so you need to have such a stupid penalty? You would see the return of the instajumping low-risk titan if the delay after firing a doomsday device is removed. A well-fitted Avatar, for example, can recharge from 0% to 100% cap in about 7 seconds. A doomsday will clear all bubbles, and the avatar would have enough time to jump out before a new bubble is in place. Originally by: Barthezz Originally by: Gilbert Drillersonit does require a lot of firepower and planning to take one down No it doesnt. Even a well tanked Aeon can 'only' tank about 10k dps (a Nyx can at most tank around 5k dps). "But if it has support it is hard to take down", is that MS harder to take down compared to a normal carrier in the same gang? I realize this is going to be a rather unpopular idea with most mothership pilots since they typically fit for pwning stuff, but have you considered fitting a triage module as your emergency button? You lose all firepower except for smartbombs and you're stuck there, but you'll quadruple your tank -- an Aeon in the above example would tank 40,000 dps, perhaps higher. That'll let you permatank against around 13 dreads assuming they do about 3k dps each. If you've got some decent support, there's a fair chance you'll end up successful (since you'll also be providing amazing remote rep ability as well). As for interdictor changes, I wouldn't disagree with some type of specialized bubble for stopping supercapitals, but making it so that a ship designed specifically for preventing warping and jumping can no longer prevent certain types of ships from jumping is absurd. I'm fairly happy with the changes as they are now, except that there needs to be some way to stop a supercapital in lowsec. As the system is now, only morons can lose a supercap there.
MirrorGod Heretic Army Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.05 05:26:00 - [85] Originally by: DOARota Risk vs Reward A Titan can kill an entire battleship fleet in one keystroke.If an alliance fields multiple Titans it can get silly real fast. Titans have been used to nuke small camps to large fleets.The cost of the DD needs to increase ten fold. Make Titans immune to a dictor bubble but instead treat the DD as a cyno field is. Hold it in place for 10-15 minutes after detonation thus requiring a massive support fleet to accompany it. /signed BUT the titan should still be able to run it's tank while in this state. Also, siege mode for titans & momma's

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