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Was the super capital nerf too much?

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Other Ideas Honor Tanking Cargo Cult	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:16:00 - [31] Originally by: Saint Luka I realise these ships are more than just PVP mobiles, with a titan being able to jump bridge ships/freighters/capitals and a mothership being able to transport upto 450k M3 when properly setup (Honour tank not included) How dare you!
Cotton Tail Domination. League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:16:00 - [32] The recent spate of supercapital kills has nothing to do with them being too easy to kill, the changes were for the best, interdictors are the ships ARE the 'module' you bring when you want to take and attempt to kill one. I don't know why people get so annoyed by them, and certainly the argument that it should take a capital ship to kill a super cap, we'll it's just absurd, it's very much against the general gameplay of EVE where groups of smaller ships have the advantage over the sole super ship. The only thing that I think needs to be changed is the bumping mechanism, it's far too sensitive at the moment, supercapitals shouldn't be easily bumped out of alignment by ships many many times smaller than themselves. The reason for the recent load of kills though is really down to a couple of things, number one, theres a whole lot more of them out there now days than in the beginning, they're no longer the play things of the elite of the elite, rather a reward for the richer long term members of alliances able to field one. This leads to the second point, that we're starting to see some really stupid players get into these ships, the MM loss of the Nyx with no real tank and mining uplinks for example, that's ship wasn't setup for a fight, and clearly giving that pilot the ship was a mistake, you shouldn't be considering buffing ships just because people can't fly them properly. Then we have the preperation that goes into the death of these ships, few of them have been spontanious, the majority of the super cap kills have been the result of planning, infiltration and people bringing in overwhelming firepower at exactly the right moment. There is also a certain degree of luck, the MC titan loss for example, -A- were fortunate that they managed to probe out the safe spot, but as someone above me mentioned they were not fortunate that their dictor survived the clearing doomsday, they wen't to great lengths to prepare for that kill, they deserved it (and paid dearly for it with their own losses). And finally the lag monster consumes more souls than anything else in the game, it's inevitable these ships draw in big crowds, and sadly the state of the game means that pilots find themselves desycned/lagged to high heaven and unable to do much. That does suck, but certainly doesn't meant that the ships are too easy to kill, there's no way that CCP can really design them to be lag proof but balanced otherwise.
ponieus Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:17:00 - [33] Originally by: Celeste Coeval Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 01/10/2007 15:02:49 Originally by: ponieus my personal feeling is nothing below a capitol should be able to bump and move such a massive ship out of alignment for warp. other than that the ship and mechanics work perfect. you do realize that the titan can warp in seconds right? Nano titans can warp in fire DD and gtfo before you even know what happened. your point? Its just my veiw. I am sorry for having one. but I still stand by it. A ship of that size and weight should not be pushed out of alignment by anything less than a capitol ship. What stops you from fitting a carrier with nano's just for the sole purpose of super-cap bumping? Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Marus Safeld Caldari Trojans Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:19:00 - [34] Originally by: DOARota From Evil Thug's post it wasn't that easy. The safe spot was actually busted before downtime, the cov ops pilot barely scanned it, and the spot was used again the next day. I believe Seleene stated that the Titan logged in and cloaked instead of warping to a friendly pos right away. Considering that it can pretty much kill everything on grid that hasn't nerfed it's combat capability by tanking for it specifically, with the press of a button,it should require a massive support fleet and a very viable means to kill it. Yeah, he probably used recon probes scanning the spot down the moment the pilot logged off (ship stays in space for just a good few seconds longer than a well trained pilot needs to analyze a recon probe.) But like I said: I was acutaly doing exploration and had no idea about the presence of a mothership in our system. (Saw 2 Read Alliance pilots in local but didn't really mind them.) Even if it's not a bug I wouldn't expect it to have too much impact on supercap warfare simply because exploration probes take a bloody long time to analyze. (Almost 5 minutes for me.)
Ishtar1 Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:22:00 - [35] personaly iv always felt that dictor bubbles stopping super-caps is rather harsh maybe the dictor crusier could have this role and take away the ability from normal dictor bubbles i dunno
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:26:00 - [36] Originally by: ponieus Originally by: Celeste Coeval Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 01/10/2007 15:02:49 Originally by: ponieus my personal feeling is nothing below a capitol should be able to bump and move such a massive ship out of alignment for warp. other than that the ship and mechanics work perfect. you do realize that the titan can warp in seconds right? Nano titans can warp in fire DD and gtfo before you even know what happened. your point? Its just my veiw. I am sorry for having one. but I still stand by it. A ship of that size and weight should not be pushed out of alignment by anything less than a capitol ship. What stops you from fitting a carrier with nano's just for the sole purpose of super-cap bumping? aaa capital CAPITAL.. not capitol!!! We have no building on those battles!!! And BS are the only thing that can have any speed to make any bump. Capital ships will never bumb anything other than by miracle. Without bumping the super capitals ARE un-killable in low sec. The dead mothership that died in low sec only died because of bumping. And ANY mothership without at least 2 carriers and half dozen support ships as escorts deserve to die. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
DOARota Gallente Drones Of Annihilation. Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:31:00 - [37] Risk vs Reward A Titan can kill an entire battleship fleet in one keystroke.If an alliance fields multiple Titans it can get silly real fast. Titans have been used to nuke small camps to large fleets.The cost of the DD needs to increase ten fold. Make Titans immune to a dictor bubble but instead treat the DD as a cyno field is. Hold it in place for 10-15 minutes after detonation thus requiring a massive support fleet to accompany it.
ponieus Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:31:00 - [38] Originally by: Kagura Nikon aaa capital CAPITAL.. not capitol!!! We have no building on those battles!!! And BS are the only thing that can have any speed to make any bump. Capital ships will never bumb anything other than by miracle. Without bumping the super capitals ARE un-killable in low sec. The dead mothership that died in low sec only died because of bumping. And ANY mothership without at least 2 carriers and half dozen support ships as escorts deserve to die. so other than my bad spelling You in a sense agree that "Super Caps" should be displaced by a bump from a smaller ship than a bs? never said a super cap without support should live dunno why you put that in there Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Cotton Tail Domination. League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:31:00 - [39] Originally by: Kagura Nikon And BS are the only thing that can have any speed to make any bump. Capital ships will never bumb anything other than by miracle. Without bumping the super capitals ARE un-killable in low sec. The dead mothership that died in low sec only died because of bumping. And ANY mothership without at least 2 carriers and half dozen support ships as escorts deserve to die. That one was also killed because he didn't have his cyno char ready to jump out at a moments notice, that was really his downfall. And it's not really a set number of ships required to field a mothership, EVE isn't designed that way. Numbers win, it's inevitable. Certainly super caps are tough ships, but they're not meant to solo fleets of the enemy, they should be used as support and a massive pool of firepower, but they can't survive on their own for long against a determined opponent. Having capital remote repping on them is always good though, there's only so much dps they can soak up on their own.
Maximor Fifth Exiled Legion Ground Zeero	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:36:00 - [40] I think the current changes are good for balancing super caps. I do agree with the guy who said that Titans are probably a easier to kill than they should be. But even then, they are being built at a basically increasing rate. If they never died, eventually, they would be as common as carriers and dreads are. Think about the battle impact a five titan DD would have.(I hear that's already been done, btw.) If you hold a unix shell up to your ear, can you still hear the c: ?
Maltitol Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:56:00 - [41] ... i somewhat agree... the fact that a small destroyer type ship (roughly the size of a small village) can stop a ship the size of an entire solar orbit is not a good thing. If a titan ran into a destroyer, the destroyer should automatically go POP, just like teh satellite in independance day... but reality is out of the question with most things... a BS to stop a titan is more reasonable...
Peanut Swsh Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.01 15:57:00 - [42] Edited by: Peanut Swsh on 01/10/2007 15:58:45 Easy to kill? Didn't RA/AAA lose 14 cap ships to kill that titan? Not exactly easy. The MM MS, that was just a poor decision to be out ratting/mining whatever in a MS. And iirc it was pretty poorly fitted? The other MS lost was the M.Pire one yeah? Well that was just great planning on x13's behalf, and failure of the Nyx pilot to have an emergency cyno. So no, Blobs kill Supercaps, which is expected. Stupidity also kills supercaps. Lack of preparation kills supercaps. Overconfidence kills supercaps. 3/4 of these things are the fault of the supercap pilots allowing themsselves to be killed. The fourth, well whats wrong with blobbing a supercap to kill it? edit I think one thing we can agree on is less lag! plz, pretty plz.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.01 16:18:00 - [43] Originally by: Maltitol ... i somewhat agree... the fact that a small destroyer type ship (roughly the size of a small village) can stop a ship the size of an entire solar orbit is not a good thing. If a titan ran into a destroyer, the destroyer should automatically go POP, just like teh satellite in independance day... but reality is out of the question with most things... a BS to stop a titan is more reasonable... your concept of scale is compeltely f up. A titan have a few kilometers only. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Barthezz Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.01 16:31:00 - [44] Originally by: Cotton Tail That one was also killed because he didn't have his cyno char ready to jump out at a moments notice, that was really his downfall. Who ever thought that the low-sec Nyx that got killed last week had even a prair of survival needs to get his head out of his behind. The moment he didnt jump out when 3-4 BS where on him was the moment he died, and ANY self respecting MS pilot does not run from 3-4 BS. There is no 'proper' support for a super capital, and anyone thinking that should also get their heads out of their behind. Why, you may ask. Well the answer is simple, a lot of the super capital kills where planned. And guess what, with planned kills the attacking party will always make sure that they have enough to kill the super capital. There is no support gang that will save you then, simply because the attacking party will make sure their gang is able to handle it. There's always exceptions, Helen's Aeon (the first MS) wasnt smart warping to 20+ dreads, Tyrrax got caught in a safespot with over 80+ known enemies around, Cole Minor got caught in a belt with a sucky setup and Retsej got caught in a safespot playing with his fittings. However, I actually see nothing really wrong with for example the way The End died, or Davlin Lotze. They fell for bait, people do it all day but for those it made the news as it concerns super capitals. You dont hear anything about the carriers that die in the same way. That said, I still think its too easy to kill super capitals. I think the best solution would be to buff up their tank. Because from all the vids that I saw from super caps dieing, and with the 2 MS that I personally helped kill. They all seem to die really really fast, not in proportion to their cost. The tank of a super cap should be, well, super. It shouldnt go down within a few minutes. Heck I have seen BS fights outlast the time some of the MS have lived. --- Dont be a victim of what I do to survive!
Maltitol Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 16:42:00 - [45] Edited by: Maltitol on 01/10/2007 16:47:03 Originally by: Kagura Nikon your concept of scale is compeltely f up. A titan have a few kilometers only. Eve Ships Size Comparison <-- LARGE IMAGE! Look in the lower left corner for the eifell tower.. titans are not on this picture, and a titan beside a cap ship is a huge difference... proove me wrong?
agent apple Applied Eugenics Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.01 16:54:00 - [46] Supercaps will always be massively unbalanced for their price tag, this is to prevent isk buying immortality. An estemel fitted rattler at the same price would die to alot less than whats needed to kill even a badly fitted mothership. Most moms lost have been lost by stupidity or rich but skilless industrialists, it paints and overly exagerated picture of how vulnerable these ships are. However (and im stealing this from sarmaul) make dictor bubbles targetable.
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.10.01 16:56:00 - [47] Edited by: General Apocalypse on 01/10/2007 16:57:05 Originally by: Kagura Nikon They should die even faster!! Battles were there are so many super capitals that they are he backbone of the fighting force are not fun and stupid. Hopefully the Dictor Cruiser will make super capitals drop like flies. Your wisdom on the forums has reached a peak level . Your posts have the IQ of the Gallente DD . So I'll give this drink . Seriously do you do anything else then trolling and and spiting silly ideas ? Try to be constructive for one it's not to hard . To the OP : The fat that a bubbles now stops a super cap both from warp and jump is a bit mistaken . Why ? Well let's take a look at this It's suppose to stop you from WARPING not jumping . My take on this would be either a jump drive scrambler that would be a capital only module or jump disrupt probe something that would go on the new cruiser sized dictor . Just my 2 cents . Originally by: CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz Originally by: CCP Oveur To the gankmobile!
Vandalias	Posted - 2007.10.01 16:58:00 - [48] Taking the general sentiment from the freighter w/ slots thread: FLY WITH SUPPORT If you get ganked its your own fault for not having enough support with you. /CCP must really love blobing...
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.10.01 17:08:00 - [49] I don't think they were nerfed to much. I think it was about right. Prior to the adjustment the only Titans that died where either offline (ASCN & D2) at the time of death or where not complete yet (LV). Since the time of the adjustments 2 have been destroyed.(BoB & MC) These two were destroyed while the pilot was online and actively engaged in the defense of the ship. Evil Thug's recent post really I think outlined how hard it really was. He thought he was dead in the early part of the battle based on what he posted, when he saw them hemming him in. A few seconds later in that early part and it would have been -A-s titan that died and not MCs. (Or possibly both would have been destroyed.) Evil Thug revealed that the specific fit of the interdictor that was used was created some time ago, a month or more, and that they had not yet had time to test their theory. He also revealed that the covert ops have been watching Seleene's movements as Thulsa Doom and had previously probed his location a few times but missed the opportunity. From Seleene's post we realize that she's running I think 3 clients, at the very least 2 clients. Her attention is divided. Had she been on just one client, the one piloting Armageddon Dawn then it is likely given the fit of that ship it would have survived as she would have immediately realized that the titan was in danger and gotten the heck out. So really the MC loss is a culmination of a lot of planning and a good bit of luck on AAA's part. Folks learned some new stuff. I'm sure that folks are already figuring out not only the fits needed to do some of this, but also what they might can do to counter that in the future. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.01 17:16:00 - [50] Originally by: ponieus Originally by: Kagura Nikon aaa capital CAPITAL.. not capitol!!! We have no building on those battles!!! And BS are the only thing that can have any speed to make any bump. Capital ships will never bumb anything other than by miracle. Without bumping the super capitals ARE un-killable in low sec. The dead mothership that died in low sec only died because of bumping. And ANY mothership without at least 2 carriers and half dozen support ships as escorts deserve to die. Smaller than BS i agree could be ignored. But BS bumping should remain. so other than my bad spelling You in a sense agree that "Super Caps" should be displaced by a bump from a smaller ship than a bs? never said a super cap without support should live dunno why you put that in there If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.01 17:19:00 - [51] Originally by: Maltitol Edited by: Maltitol on 01/10/2007 16:47:03 Originally by: Kagura Nikon your concept of scale is compeltely f up. A titan have a few kilometers only. Eve Ships Size Comparison <-- LARGE IMAGE! Look in the lower left corner for the eifell tower.. titans are not on this picture, and a titan beside a cap ship is a huge difference... proove me wrong? Get close to a titan in game. And Run along him at 1 km/s and see how long it takes to cross it. Its not that much. Titans are not so HUGE beside capital ships they are big compared to a dread but don make them look tiny. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Camber Tremodian Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 17:23:00 - [52] I think a more fair question would be.. how did they all die? Did ANY of them die in a fleet war? Nope. All of them died doing menial tasks.. like logging in, mining(mm), ratting, doing easy solo kills.. etc etc.. Maybe the solution here is to let them dock in stations. haha.
Hurricane	Posted - 2007.10.01 17:25:00 - [53] I see the nerf as a good thing, now they are vulnerable and must be used with support to survive. Two things strike me as odd however: 1) The tank on titans, they have massive ammounts of hp (which is fine) but their ability to repair seems very lacking. 2) The guns on titans are a joke. They do far less damage than a gank mega and then only to extremely large targets. That needs changing IMO. I'm not saying they should pwn fleets solo but they should at least have the option of fielding effective offensive weapons they get a bonus for.
DOARota Gallente Drones Of Annihilation. Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.10.01 17:37:00 - [54] "1) The tank on titans, they have massive ammounts of hp (which is fine) but their ability to repair seems very lacking." Lacking indeed. A nano-fit titan can align and warp really fast, just doesn't tank so well
Barthezz Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.01 18:05:00 - [55] Originally by: Camber Tremodian I think a more fair question would be.. how did they all die? Did ANY of them die in a fleet war? Nope. All of them died doing menial tasks.. like logging in, mining(mm), ratting, doing easy solo kills.. etc etc.. Maybe the solution here is to let them dock in stations. haha. Sedith, died in a fleet. Count TaSessine, died in a fleet. Ign0raMus, died in a fleet. Granted the attackers fleet was bigger, but guess what, if it was the other way around they wouldnt have died. But strangely enough, that would also have been the case with a 1b carrier. The thing is, the bigger the 'support' fleet gets (at least for motherships), the smaller the contribution of a 16b MS (or 25-30b with fittings) becomes and the more its contribution becomes nothing more but a expensive carrier. Also once the fleet gets bigger other things start to play a part, desync / lag, lets list: Gerontiq, showed up on his eve as being at a POS Sedith, CTD and (even though he was with a support fleet) died before he got back Protectories, CTD and died when he got back Helen, although he died a bit stupidly, he did also desync Once a gang reaches a certain size, how much does a MS really add to it? --- Dont be a victim of what I do to survive!
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.01 18:14:00 - [56] Originally by: Mecinia Lua Evil Thug's recent post really I think outlined how hard it really was. See, i don't think so. The time they pinned down the titan was the third time they'd managed to probe it. It was the only time they'd actually made a full-blown attempt at killing it, and they succeeded. All it took was a single doomsday-tanked interdictor (a ridiculous idea in itself) to hold it down after the DD.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.01 18:25:00 - [57] Originally by: Camber Tremodian I think a more fair question would be.. how did they all die? Did ANY of them die in a fleet war? Nope. All of them died doing menial tasks.. like logging in, mining(mm), ratting, doing easy solo kills.. etc etc.. Maybe the solution here is to let them dock in stations. haha. Well we killed an MC mothership and an ISS mothership in battle, they warped into battle and were overhelmed. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Zillazuki Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.10.01 19:13:00 - [58] Titans were a step too far anyway IMO; the ship designs should have stopped with the Mothership at the top of the food chain. I am glad they are getting popped and hope to see them phased out of Eve entirely.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.01 19:19:00 - [59] Originally by: Zillazuki Titans were a step too far anyway IMO; the ship designs should have stopped with the Mothership at the top of the food chain. I am glad they are getting popped and hope to see them phased out of Eve entirely. Kind of have to agree. They are senseless weaposn that add no good thing to the game, but a giant e-peen. Ships with no love for fun. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.10.01 19:31:00 - [60] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Mecinia Lua Evil Thug's recent post really I think outlined how hard it really was. See, i don't think so. The time they pinned down the titan was the third time they'd managed to probe it. It was the only time they'd actually made a full-blown attempt at killing it, and they succeeded. All it took was a single doomsday-tanked interdictor (a ridiculous idea in itself) to hold it down after the DD. THe probing of the titan was only a small part of the overall steps needed. It is exceedingly difficult. The thing I see is that in the last 2 titan deaths, Shrike and Doom, the Titans were alone at the beginning of the battle. Anytime someone posts about their freighter getting popped in Empire or something you see folks immediately point out they should have used scouts or escorts. At the same time we don't see that mentioned for Titans. The same principle applies. In both cases had the Titans not been alone then it is likely they could have escaped. Another problem is one that we commonly see with macroers and such. Where one person is controlling one or more ships. Almost all of the titan pilots have multiple accounts. I don't blame them staying in a big target all the time would not be fun. At the same time we have to realise that just like when the macroer misses you flipping his can. When our attention is spread out over several actions we miss critical data. Seleene's loss was the result of a formulated plan and an extraordinary amount of luck really. One thing is interesting, after Shrike's death, noone killed another titan the same way. And I doubt this trick will work again as I'm sure BoB and MC will adapt. In finding out now before the cruiser interdictors arrive it gives you a bit more time to prepare. Cruiser Interdictor, Black Op Battleships and several of the other new ship types are going to really change the face of warfare. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.

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