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Caldari Incognito	Posted - 2007.10.04 08:52:00 - [1] It's almost like Caldari have been pushed to the side and left there to npc. Thats just about all they're good for these days. I can't find one ship in the Caldari race that's better than an equal classed ship. Actually.. I can't find anything really good about Caldari anymore. They are lowest DPSers They do have ECM. But ECM aint as good as Dampning... Sure they have good passive tanks, but they will still lose any 1on1 fight vs. any other race. They cant hit fast ships with their missiles. Whats left besides NPC? Caldari doesnt fit the "story line" anymore. Figure something out, cuz this is kinda sad.
hellsknights Hells Angels Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 09:01:00 - [2] poor you recruitment thread Join channel Hells Angels Inc
Caldari Incognito	Posted - 2007.10.04 09:02:00 - [3] they plan was something konstructive out of this.. I guess thats too much to ask from this forum.
hellsknights Hells Angels Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 09:09:00 - [4] Edited by: hellsknights on 04/10/2007 09:10:20 Quit the damn crying, caldari are a long range race, they use missiles missiles have the advantage of chosing specific damage types. The recon ship is very good, you said dampner's???? to be honest a Caldari recon can jam more ships an completely silence the hostiles. Does Caldari need a little tweaking???yes they do as do other races. So please if you don't like the caldari ships train other's. Now can you shut up? And use your main ya nub cake. recruitment thread Join channel Hells Angels Inc
Caldari Incognito	Posted - 2007.10.04 09:17:00 - [5] its not about whining, which is how you automatically took this post. I just think it twisted in a direction, where its too unballanced. And please keep it clean.. dont tell people to shut up.
Cryselle	Posted - 2007.10.04 09:17:00 - [6] I want to see a 1vs1 against my nighthawk that can overcome my tank. And I simply wear them down over time. Even a fully gank fitted geddon with 4 HSII and Pulses with max skills couldn't kill it. Tweaking yes, fundamental changes no
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.10.04 09:21:00 - [7] Damps are getting "nerfed" in Rev3 (effect strength stays the same, but you have to choose between either range or resolution dampening), which nakes ECM more viable in comparison again. Also, while missiles cannot hit fast ships, the same is true for just about every other weapon at ranges of under 200km. Buff room for large link addresses in sigs plz :(
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.04 09:25:00 - [8] Originally by: Ishina Fel Damps are getting "nerfed" in Rev3 (effect strength stays the same, but you have to choose between either range or resolution dampening), which nakes ECM more viable in comparison again. Also, while missiles cannot hit fast ships, the same is true for just about every other weapon at ranges of under 200km. Dev blog link please. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Caldari Incognito	Posted - 2007.10.04 09:36:00 - [9] Originally by: Cryselle I want to see a 1vs1 against my nighthawk that can overcome my tank. And I simply wear them down over time. Even a fully gank fitted geddon with 4 HSII and Pulses with max skills couldn't kill it. Tweaking yes, fundamental changes no Sure, erverything is possible.. But how much did you spend on it?
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.10.04 09:39:00 - [10] Edited by: madaluap on 04/10/2007 09:40:14 Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 04/10/2007 09:27:12 Originally by: Ishina Fel Damps are getting "nerfed" in Rev3 (effect strength stays the same, but you have to choose between either range or resolution dampening), which nakes ECM more viable in comparison again. Also, while missiles cannot hit fast ships, the same is true for just about every other weapon at ranges of under 200km. Dev blog link please. Caldari have the longes range sniper, best anti support ship (eagle), best ceptor etc... Find it yourself, lazy man. In space the dampener can decide weither you go for lockingrange reduction or lockingspeed reduction. Enemy can or lock the dampener(slowly but still lock it @ 250 km if you want) or the enemy needs to mwd below damprange and start lock @ his own speed. Basicly the effectiveness of damps will be 50% of what they used to be. What you could do with 2 damps now, you can do with 4 damps after the patch. That said, i think it isnt that hard adapting to this nerf. But some people seemed to whine about the curse after the nosnerf and that nerf wasnt that big compared to this dampnerf. Its pretty cool that this will stimulate caldari ECM + gallente lockingspeed reduction. ECM to break locks and damps to extend the period in which a target has no lock. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.04 09:45:00 - [11] The flycatcher can do something the other interdictors cannot in PvP - engage on MWD at 20km. The Crow can also do the same - engage whilst on MWD. However, in the main... well, actually Caldari ships can generally fit harder tanks. Provided they don't want to fit anything else in their midslots. More generally though, the problem isn't so much with caldari ships - they're actually quite well adapted to their 'niche'. The problem is, that the niche they occupy is a marginalised one in EVE combat. 90% of EVE combat is at 0-24km. Warp disruptor range. A useful fraction of that is at 0-10km, which is web range. Of the remaining 10%, most of it's going to be at sniper ranges. Sniper ranges is where the Rokh is good, but because of the locking cap it's really no better than the megathron. But it does tank better, whilst doing it, which might mean something if sniper BS didn't just melt under concentrated fire regardless of your tank. Ravens are also, really awesome 'midrange' combat ships - missiles do midrange levels of damage, but with the fringe benefits of being at least partially effective at short and long ranges too. The same's true of ... well, most of the Caldari portfolio I feel. Mid - Long range shield tankers, and good at it. It's just the way the game currently is, mid-long range is pretty marginal outside PvE, and shield tanking has similar limitations. Bottom line: Caldari are good at what they do. There's a whole bunch of actually quite well designed ships, inhabiting their niches. The problem is, that not enough of those niches are actually relevant in the EVE Combat system, so you end up using a ship specialised one way, as a poorer alternative to another ship or another race. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Caldari Incognito	Posted - 2007.10.04 09:54:00 - [12] Edited by: Caldari Incognito on 04/10/2007 09:55:10 You are right James. Caldari can field a massive tank, but at the cost of controlling the battle. You can never have a tanked ship AND hold a hostile. hence.. you can always get away from a Caldari. you just dont have room for scrambler and web AND mwd. loose one of them and ALL ships are faster. Fit all 3 of em and your tank goes faster than lighting
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:07:00 - [13] Funny how a new alt pops up with a new caldari whine ever so often. To me it's the same as any other form of troll. They are not the "lowest DPSers" - when you factor in range and tracking. ECM and dampening are not mutually exclusive, ever considered a combination? Passive tanks are indeed not good in pvp as they are very cap and module intensive. Neither missiles nor guns can hit when the opponent is going to fast - missiles can however hit when YOU are the one going to fast. As for the shield tanking and solo paradox, I suggest having a look at the poor poor Sleipnir, which obviously needs a heavy boost as it's an active shield tanking pvp ship. As been mentioned in other threads caldari got a top of the line(as in one of the best if not the best) in just about every role there is. Go read one of those threads. Then again, I bet one of those threads are exactly what made your alt head on here in the first place. Postcount: 999302 [02:40:22] <elmickers> if you're caldari in a fleet fight, bring a corp
Firkragg Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Ishina Fel Damps are getting "nerfed" in Rev3 (effect strength stays the same, but you have to choose between either range or resolution dampening), which nakes ECM more viable in comparison again. Can people stop mentioning this as its just another nerf to my beautiful curse :( Originally by: Ishina Fel Also, while missiles cannot hit fast ships, the same is true for just about every other weapon at ranges of under 200km. This is true. People need to stop complaining about missile speed as its not like my guns can come near hitting them either. The main difference is that if they head straight away from me my guns hit, then again when they are orbitting at a slower speed missiles will still hit but my guns wont track.
mr ioso Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:41:00 - [15] Edited by: mr ioso on 04/10/2007 10:43:03 Originally by: James Lyrus Edited by: James Lyrus on 04/10/2007 09:51:53 90% of EVE combat is at 0-24km. Warp disruptor range. A useful fraction of that is at 0-10km, which is web range. Of the remaining 10%, most of it's going to be at sniper ranges. Even if most solo combat is limited to scrambler range dosnt mean that 90% of pvp in eve is solo, more like the oposit, Its more common to see 2 pirates or more then just one for exaple, and im pretty sure any decent nano, damp midrange ship and a tackler can take down 2-3 close range ship in most cases. The problem is that everyone tries to fit their ravens and geddons like a thorax and of course you will be disapointed as that is clearly not the idea behind it. What I mean is that if 90% of the pvp ships is close range and has a mwd\scram\web\cap booster then use a tactic that work agenst it and you will be victorius in 90% of the fights.
Wideen Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:44:00 - [16] Originally by: Caldari Incognito Edited by: Caldari Incognito on 04/10/2007 09:55:10 You are right James. Caldari can field a massive tank, but at the cost of controlling the battle. You can never have a tanked ship AND hold a hostile. hence.. you can always get away from a Caldari. you just dont have room for scrambler and web AND mwd. loose one of them and ALL ships are faster. Fit all 3 of em and your tank goes faster than lighting This is not true. I killed a megathron (standard mega gank fit) with a Rokh, using the following: highs: 800mm repeating artillery I mids: 1 x Xlarge SB II, invulnerability field II, 1 x warp disr, 1 x webber, 1 x Cap booster, 1 x shield boost amp I. lows: 1 x dmg control II, rest gyros... I only have caldari BS 3 and I still won... Say what again about caldari being underpowered? I didn't even use the right guns.. ____________________________________________________________ It should be illegal for anyone else besides Chuck Norris to quote himself
Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:40:00 - [17] Edited by: Tom Gunn on 04/10/2007 11:40:31 Originally by: Wideen Originally by: Caldari Incognito Edited by: Caldari Incognito on 04/10/2007 09:55:10 You are right James. Caldari can field a massive tank, but at the cost of controlling the battle. You can never have a tanked ship AND hold a hostile. hence.. you can always get away from a Caldari. you just dont have room for scrambler and web AND mwd. loose one of them and ALL ships are faster. Fit all 3 of em and your tank goes faster than lighting This is not true. I killed a megathron (standard mega gank fit) with a Rokh, using the following: highs: 800mm repeating artillery I mids: 1 x Xlarge SB II, invulnerability field II, 1 x warp disr, 1 x webber, 1 x Cap booster, 1 x shield boost amp I. lows: 1 x dmg control II, rest gyros... I only have caldari BS 3 and I still won... Say what again about caldari being underpowered? I didn't even use the right guns.. And thats probably as good of a tank as you can fit with a scrambler, though your post doesn't make the above posters statement untrue, you at best have a semi-tank fitted and no MWD. If your winning fights with BS3, it has little to do with how over or underpowered caldari, more that your opponent either sucked or just wasn't fitted for pvp, especially if it was a megathron. As for guns, you kinda make the caldari's point for them - the rokh's bonus' are pretty useless in a long range sniping roll due to a 250km hard cap, so you may as well use whatever guns your best with.
Caldari Incognito	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:46:00 - [18] you didnt use any cap..
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:51:00 - [19] Caldari: Good interceptor. Good dictor. Best Ewar cruiser. Niche battlecruiser (best tank, best mid range dps). Best gang recons. Best ratting BS. Good sniping BS. Good anti support sniper. Looks pretty good to me, all you lack are gank ships and you have the best ewar ships in the game. As far as solo ships well soloing in anything slow is suicide, so you have a nice inty/dictor for that. shrug I trained up caldari just for the recons.
NeoTheo Caldari Dark Materials Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:55:00 - [20] Originally by: hellsknights Edited by: hellsknights on 04/10/2007 09:10:20 missiles have the advantage of chosing specific damage types. LEARN TO PLAY. 90% of caldari ships only have a bonus to kinetic damage, this statement is a compleate myth. having said that, i pvp just fine in caldari ships, however i am cross training gal ships so i can pvp on easy mode.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.04 12:00:00 - [21] Originally by: MITSUK0 Caldari: Good interceptor. Good dictor. Best Ewar cruiser. Niche battlecruiser (best tank, best mid range dps). Best gang recons. Best ratting BS. Good sniping BS. Good anti support sniper. Looks pretty good to me, all you lack are gank ships and you have the best ewar ships in the game. As far as solo ships well soloing in anything slow is suicide, so you have a nice inty/dictor for that. shrug I trained up caldari just for the recons. Also the best general ewar ships.
Wideen Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.04 12:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Tom Gunn Edited by: Tom Gunn on 04/10/2007 11:40:31 Originally by: Wideen Originally by: Caldari Incognito Edited by: Caldari Incognito on 04/10/2007 09:55:10 You are right James. Caldari can field a massive tank, but at the cost of controlling the battle. You can never have a tanked ship AND hold a hostile. hence.. you can always get away from a Caldari. you just dont have room for scrambler and web AND mwd. loose one of them and ALL ships are faster. Fit all 3 of em and your tank goes faster than lighting This is not true. I killed a megathron (standard mega gank fit) with a Rokh, using the following: highs: 800mm repeating artillery I mids: 1 x Xlarge SB II, invulnerability field II, 1 x warp disr, 1 x webber, 1 x Cap booster, 1 x shield boost amp I. lows: 1 x dmg control II, rest gyros... I only have caldari BS 3 and I still won... Say what again about caldari being underpowered? I didn't even use the right guns.. And thats probably as good of a tank as you can fit with a scrambler, though your post doesn't make the above posters statement untrue, you at best have a semi-tank fitted and no MWD. If your winning fights with BS3, it has little to do with how over or underpowered caldari, more that your opponent either sucked or just wasn't fitted for pvp, especially if it was a megathron. As for guns, you kinda make the caldari's point for them - the rokh's bonus' are pretty useless in a long range sniping roll due to a 250km hard cap, so you may as well use whatever guns your best with. Yes it does, in the sense that you can actually use caldari ships for pvp. You don't have to use all your midslots for a godly tank, then you're spoiled if you expect that. Or you can have your godly tank but then get some friends for tackle and you'll do fine. As for the megathron scenario; it was on the test-server and I was fighting a friend with about 40m sp so yes, he had a pvp setup nor did he suck at what he was doing. The gun discussion is another one which I'm not rly interested in, my point was mainly to state that the caldari-can't-pvp-dogma isn't rly in line with reality. Ps. that shield boost amp could easily be dropped for an MWD, although a gyro or two would have to be replaced for a RCU/PDU or two. ____________________________________________________________ It should be illegal for anyone else besides Chuck Norris to quote himself
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.04 12:24:00 - [23] caldari ships ar niche ships and are not that easy to fly efffectively. you have distinct roles, you suck while trying to do anythign else. in theyfre niche tough they can shine.
Odium47	Posted - 2007.10.04 12:25:00 - [24] Originally by: MITSUK0 Caldari: Good interceptor. Good dictor. Best Ewar cruiser. Niche battlecruiser (best tank, best mid range dps). Best gang recons. Best ratting BS. Good sniping BS. Good anti support sniper. Looks pretty good to me, all you lack are gank ships and you have the best ewar ships in the game. As far as solo ships well soloing in anything slow is suicide, so you have a nice inty/dictor for that. shrug I trained up caldari just for the recons. Shhht! say you are jokin', let them berf other nation so caldari can kill faster !
Zosana	Posted - 2007.10.04 12:33:00 - [25] Edited by: Zosana on 04/10/2007 12:33:31 Cruisers: Caracal - terrible dps, kinetic bonus only, some e-war potential. Terrible pg. <<< Vexor. Moa - only four turrets, poor dps output. Doesn't stack up to the ruppie or thorax. Blackbird - its good. Post damp nerf it might be the best e-war cruiser. Right now though? I'm not so sure. BCs: Ferox: direly needs a boost Drake: lowest dps in its class, least pvp utility of the t2 BCs, kinetic only bonus, good tank. Midrange damage is well and good but this ship is also the slowest, with no way to maintain range and not enough damage to compete with ACs/pulse/blasters at close ranges. BSs: Scorp: It's good. But like all other ECM ships it suffers from lack of a tank when properly set up. Raven: it's not all that in PvP. It certainly doesn't compare well to the pest and the mega. Ok, it's better than the apoc . Rokh: Not used as often as the pest and mega as snipers. Pest has its alpha, Mega does more damage at practically all ranges it can reach. As a blaster boat it cannot gank as hard as the Gallente equivalents, but sports a nice tank. Hawk: its crap. Even with the newly boosted bonus. It does less damage than a kestrel, and I believe than all other AFs. Harpy: it's a decent ship, not on the level of the ishkur but apart from the problems shared by all AFs, it's really not bad. Conclusion: Caldari aren't completly bad. The missile ships just aren't all that useful right now. The cruisers also really, really need help. Caldari doesn't have anything remotely ressembling the Thorax, Vexor, or Rupture or Arbitrator to serve as a good throwaway pvp ship. And no the blackbird doesn't fill that role. IMO Caldari just looks bad when compared to Gallente.
Kamikaaazi Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.04 12:35:00 - [26] Originally by: MITSUK0 Caldari: Good interceptor. Good dictor. Best Ewar cruiser. Niche battlecruiser (best tank, best mid range dps). Best gang recons. Best ratting BS. Good sniping BS. Good anti support sniper. Looks pretty good to me, all you lack are gank ships and you have the best ewar ships in the game. As far as solo ships well soloing in anything slow is suicide, so you have a nice inty/dictor for that. shrug I trained up caldari just for the recons. Good interceptor. - yes for tackling at 20km+ Good dictor. - hows flycatcher any better than eris/heretic? It has a bonus it cant use, its the slowest and heaviest and only has 1 low slot. Best Ewar cruiser. - celestis is as good as BB if not even better. Niche battlecruiser (best tank, best mid range dps). - best tank? Passive shield tank myrmi is better. Also dps is better. Best gang recons. - lol, no way, id rather see a minmatar or gallente recon in my gang than caldari. Best ratting BS. - true Good sniping BS. - good sniping at what range? Some unrealistic 250km range or average pvp 100-150km range? If that then then pretty much every sniper is better. Good anti support sniper. yarr
ZenTex Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.04 12:36:00 - [27] Caldari are not broken, they're decen't, but as stated before, they have issues. For me the biggest problem is the midslot problem. For PvP you will definately want to fit a web, maybe 2, a mwd/AB, scram, maybe a TP. I can fit all those on my raven but I'd go down like a brick having no tank. Armour tank some would say. Yes, but filling my lows withtank means the already poor DPS drops even more. But assuming I want to keep a 1/2 decent shieldtank i can use 1 midslot for non-tank mods, 2 is pushing it. Which makes PvP very situational at best, it's just not enough to counter other ship's. Midslots aren't meant for tanking it seems, it's for gank. All midslot mods are offensive or to counter certain situation. Scram, TP, damps, speed. these are bread and butter and Caldari can't fit them without completely gimping tank. Missiles are fine IMHO. Not the best of damage, and maybe take some time to travel to the target, but that's why I don't use torps in PvP. We have FOF's, a big plus, missiles dont use cap, and can't be tracking disrupted. Missiles can't hit fast ships and when they do inflict very little damage, but turrets suffer from the same issue. no problems there. Having said that, a slight speed bonus to missiles would be nice, with a slight decrease in travel time. Low slot versions of midslot mods like web and scram would be great. No more targets escaping in hull because you had no scram fitted. There's little a sledgehammer can't fix. If you can't fix it, you need a bigger sledgehammer. If it's unfixable, blame CCP. :p
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.10.04 13:04:00 - [28] Edited by: MITSUK0 on 04/10/2007 13:04:21 Originally by: Kamikaaazi Good interceptor. - yes for tackling at 20km+ Good dictor. - hows flycatcher any better than eris/heretic? It has a bonus it cant use, its the slowest and heaviest and only has 1 low slot. Best Ewar cruiser. - celestis is as good as BB if not even better. Niche battlecruiser (best tank, best mid range dps). - best tank? Passive shield tank myrmi is better. Also dps is better. Best gang recons. - lol, no way, id rather see a minmatar or gallente recon in my gang than caldari. Best ratting BS. - true Good sniping BS. - good sniping at what range? Some unrealistic 250km range or average pvp 100-150km range? If that then then pretty much every sniper is better. Good anti support sniper. - you mean eagle? The only hac with only 4 turrets? It cant even pop a frigate unless its flown by a complete idiot. Note that good does not mean best, but also does not mean worst. Crow is the only inty that can deal its damage while at full speed = good. Flycatcher can fit 2 webbers + mse in a rocket setup = good for solo work. Its pretty cheap, can fit resists + MSE = good for fleet work (what type of dictor was it that tanked the DD to get the titan kill hmmm?) Blackbird can remove 2 - 3 enemy battleships from the fight and operate at extreme range. Celestis needs to be much closer to the fight to achieve the same effect and does not have enough mids to remove 3 BS from a fight (takes at least 2 damps per BS). Myrmidon has a bigger resit hole and its dps is removable. Also it does not change the fact that the drake does the best mid range dps out of all the BC's and better than most of the HAC's. Best gang recon, ability to jam at 250km if desired while also carrying a probe launcher and still capable of cloaked scouting. If I was only bringing one recon it would be a falcon. Good sniping is good sniping. Rohk is better at it than many of the other BS and worse than a few of them. Thats why I didnt say "best". The eagle is perfectly capable of popping frigs. When people discuss anti support ships you can bet your arse the eagle and the munnin will be mentioned. therefore eagle = good.
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.10.04 13:14:00 - [29] Originally by: Kamikaaazi MITSUK0 you clearly havent done any pvp. Just keep telling ppl about that wonderful 250km range and how BB can jamm 3 BS. It might seem ok on paper but the reality is totally different thing. PvP'd a long time in Blackbirds, crows and lately falcons. I said it was an option and it is an option. Considering I can fly both the ECM ships and the RSD ships, I get asked to bring an ECM ship far more often than a RSD one for the simple reason that damps can be spread through a gang and ecm cannot. Flame all you want, be emo all you want, Ill continue making my ships work.
Zosana	Posted - 2007.10.04 13:24:00 - [30] Edited by: Zosana on 04/10/2007 13:23:48 Originally by: MITSUK0 Crow is the only inty that can deal its damage while at full speed = good. Malediction. Quote: Flycatcher can fit 2 webbers + mse in a rocket setup = good for solo work. Its pretty cheap, can fit resists + MSE = good for fleet work Saber is better all around. The new Heretic doesn't have the range advantage but is far faster. Quote: (what type of dictor was it that tanked the DD to get the titan kill hmmm?) Explosive DD. That doesn't say anything about the quality of the ship. Quote: Blackbird can remove 2 - 3 enemy battleships from the fight and operate at extreme range. Celestis needs to be much closer to the fight to achieve the same effect and does not have enough mids to remove 3 BS from a fight (takes at least 2 damps per BS). Celestis actually has a tank while doing so. And 40m3 drone bay. Blackbird is paper thin. You also need exactly the right racials to take out 2-3 battleships on average. Quote: Myrmidon has a bigger resit hole and its dps is removable. It's also a much better ship, especially solo. The resist hole isn't a good argument, myrm actually has mobility (on top of its rep bonus) and can get out of situations a Drake would die in. Dps being removable isn't an issue in most fights. Quote: Also it does not change the fact that the drake does the best mid range dps out of all the BC's and better than most of the HAC's. Mid range dps is near worthless, you cannot hold your targets there (bubbles aside) and theres nothing stopping your targets from closing. Especially since you have the slowest t2 BC. Quote: Best gang recon, ability to jam at 250km if desired while also carrying a probe launcher and still capable of cloaked scouting. If I was only bringing one recon it would be a falcon. Agreed. Quote: Good sniping is good sniping. Rohk is better at it than many of the other BS and worse than a few of them. Thats why I didnt say "best". And yet Rokhs aren't that common in fleets compared to other ships. They're not bad, they're not great. And they're one of Caldari's best ships. It does say something about the state of the race.
mr ioso Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.10.04 13:37:00 - [31] Originally by: ZenTex Caldari are not broken, they're decen't, but as stated before, they have issues. For me the biggest problem is the midslot problem. For PvP you will definately want to fit a web, maybe 2, a mwd/AB, scram, maybe a TP. I can fit all those on my raven but I'd go down like a brick having no tank. Armour tank some would say. Yes, but filling my lows withtank means the already poor DPS drops even more. But assuming I want to keep a 1/2 decent shieldtank i can use 1 midslot for non-tank mods, 2 is pushing it. Which makes PvP very situational at best, it's just not enough to counter other ship's. Midslots aren't meant for tanking it seems, it's for gank. All midslot mods are offensive or to counter certain situation. Scram, TP, damps, speed. these are bread and butter and Caldari can't fit them without completely gimping tank. Missiles are fine IMHO. Not the best of damage, and maybe take some time to travel to the target, but that's why I don't use torps in PvP. We have FOF's, a big plus, missiles dont use cap, and can't be tracking disrupted. Missiles can't hit fast ships and when they do inflict very little damage, but turrets suffer from the same issue. no problems there. Having said that, a slight speed bonus to missiles would be nice, with a slight decrease in travel time. Low slot versions of midslot mods like web and scram would be great. No more targets escaping in hull because you had no scram fitted. So you want to fit a raven with 2 webs, mwd, scram and maby a armor tank and then your annoyed the ship perform poorly? If everyone else runs by that idea then counter it with speed or stay out of their range and if you realy wan't to fit the raven as a megathron then maby its easyer if you just get a mega instead? Just becasue most people pvp at close range does not mean that its the only way. (or best for that matter).
goodby4u Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.04 13:38:00 - [32] Originally by: Caldari Incognito Originally by: Cryselle I want to see a 1vs1 against my nighthawk that can overcome my tank. And I simply wear them down over time. Even a fully gank fitted geddon with 4 HSII and Pulses with max skills couldn't kill it. Tweaking yes, fundamental changes no Sure, erverything is possible.. But how much did you spend on it? 5x shield power relays,1x photon 2 2x invul 2 2x LSE 2s,5x heavy missile launcher 2s and dual core defence rigs....1135dps tankability....PASSIVELY. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.10.04 13:38:00 - [33] Edited by: MITSUK0 on 04/10/2007 13:39:33 Originally by: Zosana Some good points :) Malediction yeh forogt that one lol. It still doesent change the fact that the crow is good. The saber is a good all rounder but that does not mean that the flycatcher sucks just that the flycatcher is not the best one and I never said it was. Explosive DD yes but it was still the flycatcher that did it, chosen because it could do it the easyest. Celestis does bring those things but its ewar can be spread through a gang because it is not reliant on ship bonuses to have an effect. It is a case of if you are only gonna bring one ewar cruiser, which would you bring? I still hold that the BB is the best ewar cruiser and the one that has the biggest impact on a fight. Also damps are useless at fleet ranges whereas falcons/rooks can have an impact (more a note towards recons). I never claimed that the drake was the best BC, I said it was a niche BC and that is still true. The myrmidon is better than all the other BC's in every situation except mid range dps, which the drake is best at. Yes mid range dps is an issue that is hard to apply, the situations it is usefull in are minimal unfourtunatley. Yup rohks are not bad and not great, never claimed they where the best. You will see a theme :) Caldari do not have many situations where they are the best in class. They are however allround pretty good ships and are very competative in some ship classes and still (imho) the best ewar ships out there. So caldari do not suck. They are also not overpowered :) (or more to the point not overpowered in the situations people want them to be: OMGIGANKEDHIMLULZ :P:P)
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 13:42:00 - [34] Edited by: Gypsio III on 04/10/2007 13:44:07 The Blackbird is superior to the Celestis in small gang combat. Although "superior" is really the wrong word, "different" is more accurate. The tank on either is largely irrelevant, as is the drone bay. Having the right racials is not hard, the typical enemy gang has a range of ships and you just match your racials up to them. Few people bring snipers to a small gang, so the Blackbird can sit safely at range, whereas the Celestis will be closer, within drone and missile range and more vulnerable. And, as pointed out, you can bring an ewar Drake/Raven and provide damping power similar to that of the Celestis, along with greater DPS. Quote: Mid range dps is near worthless, you cannot hold your targets there (bubbles aside) and theres nothing stopping your targets from closing. Especially since you have the slowest t2 BC. Hello? Tacklers?? Quote: 5x shield power relays,1x photon 2 2x invul 2 2x LSE 2s,5x heavy missile launcher 2s and dual core defence rigs....1135dps tankability....PASSIVELY. Wow, a useless brick of a ship that performs no role, has feeble DPS and is just left until last, then killed.
Zosana	Posted - 2007.10.04 14:05:00 - [35] Edited by: Zosana on 04/10/2007 14:08:43 Quote: Hello? Tacklers?? Tacklers die. And since unlike a short range ships, once your tackler is gone you no longer have a way of holding your target, it'll either warp away or keep closing. And the comparatively low dps of mid range ships gives plenty of time for killing said tackler. Sure a Raven with an Arazu and Rapier can take full advantage of its range. Or a drake with a heavily tanked tackler. Or you could put those players in other ships and gasp be more effective with equal numbers.
mr ioso Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.10.04 14:15:00 - [36] Edited by: mr ioso on 04/10/2007 14:16:36 Originally by: Zosana Edited by: Zosana on 04/10/2007 14:08:43 Tacklers die. And since unlike a short range ships, once your tackler is gone you no longer have a way of holding your target, it'll either warp away or keep closing. And the comparatively low dps of mid range ships gives plenty of time for killing said tackler. Sure a Raven with an Arazu and Rapier can take full advantage of its range. Or a drake with a heavily tanked tackler. Or you could put those players in other ships and gasp be more effective with equal numbers. Well you can also look at it from the other way, sure you might not catch everyone, but that goes the other way to as while a close range attacker will get killed if he's losing the fight or get jumped by other ships the mid range guy can usualy easly get away. So in the end it makes up for itself. You might not catch\get a fight with everyone but nor will you die as much.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 14:23:00 - [37] Use tougher tacklers, then. The typical close-range BC/BS has web and scram, that's a tackler. Quote: Or you could put those players in other ships and gasp be more effective with equal numbers. More effective? This is an odd point, because it assumes that people have equal skills and experience in flying various ships. In any case, I don't agree - I think you underestimate the power of ewar. A properly-fit RSD or TD Drake/Raven can greatly restrict 2 enemies' DPS, whilst still providing their own. And that's before we get to the ECM boats. Caldari boats are, in gang, much more flexible and powerful than the default PVE-crossover missiles-and shieldtank cookiecutter fits that adorn killboards. Compare that flexibility to Gallente and Amarr, where slot layouts and ship bonuses pretty much force you into predictable fits and predictable tactics.
Heiken Wimast Amarr Clan LoKi R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.04 14:54:00 - [38] Put Navy missiles on launchers and have fun...
Bad Borris Caldari Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:06:00 - [39] Originally by: Heiken Wimast Put Navy missiles on launchers and have fun... QFT
Zosana	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:07:00 - [40] Originally by: Gypsio III Use tougher tacklers, then. The typical close-range BC/BS has web and scram, that's a tackler. Quote: Or you could put those players in other ships and gasp be more effective with equal numbers. More effective? This is an odd point, because it assumes that people have equal skills and experience in flying various ships. In any case, I don't agree - I think you underestimate the power of ewar. A properly-fit RSD or TD Drake/Raven can greatly restrict 2 enemies' DPS, whilst still providing their own. And that's before we get to the ECM boats. Caldari boats are, in gang, much more flexible and powerful than the default PVE-crossover missiles-and shieldtank cookiecutter fits that adorn killboards. Compare that flexibility to Gallente and Amarr, where slot layouts and ship bonuses pretty much force you into predictable fits and predictable tactics. I am not arguing that Caldari ships do not provide valuable support to a mixed gang when fit for e-war, but to do so they have to build on the strengths of other race's ships. Playing support is nice but extremely limited. You mention the lack of flexibility of other races' slot layouts, that's true but doesn't paint the whole picture. Other races' ships can fit into more roles. For example the Mega is good in fleets, good solo, good in gangs. Can the same be said of the Raven? No. Caldari ships have their niches in which they are effective, they are also flat out inferior at a number of other roles which the other races fulfill fine. The balance for Caldari being inferior solo should be better performance in gangs, not just in a few specific situations.
Dretzle Omega Caldari Psychedelic Party Stellar Economy Experts	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:09:00 - [41] One question I have after reading much of this thread, is why do people think that just because Caldari work best in group scenarios that they suck? In many games you'll have a class that works best in a group but PvPing alone would suck. I've heard of healer classes in other games. You take a healer/medic into PvP alone and obviously he will be ripped to shreds. You take a healer/medic with a group into PvP and the group as a whole will do better off than without the medic. So, if Caldari work most effectively in a group, why does that mean they are broken? Why does Caldari have to be able to win 1 on 1 fights in order to make them a race worth considering? ------------------- 4 8 15 16 23 42 108
Zosana	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:10:00 - [42] Originally by: mr ioso Well you can also look at it from the other way, sure you might not catch everyone, but that goes the other way to as while a close range attacker will get killed if he's losing the fight or get jumped by other ships the mid range guy can usualy easly get away. So in the end it makes up for itself. You might not catch\get a fight with everyone but nor will you die as much. That's a fair point. Though when it comes to not dying I prefer minmatar.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:38:00 - [43] Originally by: Dretzle Omega So, if Caldari work most effectively in a group, why does that mean they are broken? Why does Caldari have to be able to win 1 on 1 fights in order to make them a race worth considering? If you are flying a Caldari ship you will find that it sucks on its own. The logical consequence is that you will fly them in a gang (if at all). Looking at it from the gang's point of view there is little reason to prefer Caldari ships over other races' counterparts. So they are "good" in gangs compared to being "awful" on their own. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
goodby4u Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.04 17:11:00 - [44] Edited by: goodby4u on 04/10/2007 17:16:19 Edited by: goodby4u on 04/10/2007 17:15:44 Edited by: goodby4u on 04/10/2007 17:15:22 Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 04/10/2007 13:44:07 Quote: 5x shield power relays,1x photon 2 2x invul 2 2x LSE 2s,5x heavy missile launcher 2s and dual core defence rigs....1135dps tankability....PASSIVELY. Wow, a useless brick of a ship that performs no role, has feeble DPS and is just left until last, then killed. It doesnt matter how much it can do tackle wise or dps wise,its built to tank and it does it well...Therefore it has a niche...Oh and that was with t2 stuff,my absolution can tank that much sustainably even with faction. EDIT:sorry,i was wrong...With 3x chelms cap rechargers 3x chelms adaptives a t2 damage control and 3x true sansha med reppers i can tank 1200 dps,it only costed me about 20billion! __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.10.04 17:34:00 - [45] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Dretzle Omega So, if Caldari work most effectively in a group, why does that mean they are broken? Why does Caldari have to be able to win 1 on 1 fights in order to make them a race worth considering? If you are flying a Caldari ship you will find that it sucks on its own. The logical consequence is that you will fly them in a gang (if at all). Looking at it from the gang's point of view there is little reason to prefer Caldari ships over other races' counterparts. So they are "good" in gangs compared to being "awful" on their own. I dont know about that, My corp is 95% Caldari, and they run exclusive caldari gangs alot and are pretty good. When I fly with the core group, they will mix it up with an inty (not sure which one) scorpion, Raven and a drake sometimes there will be a dominix or a geddon...Anyways, its pretty unbelievable what they can chew through in a night of hunting. I am actually impressed with the scorpion, I think its an underrated battleship. _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
Santorin Caldari Otakus Society Core-Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.10.04 17:49:00 - [46] You know the only thing your whining about is that Caldari can't tackle and then they suck solo get a m8 and do gangs.....
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.04 19:53:00 - [47] Originally by: Santorin You know the only thing your whining about is that Caldari can't tackle and then they suck solo get a m8 and do gangs..... But in a gang, other races weaknesses are also better supported. Caldari suck less in a gang, but there's not really much difference there. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
OOOSOOO	Posted - 2007.10.04 19:55:00 - [48] Originally by: Caldari Incognito It's almost like Caldari have been pushed to the side and left there to npc. Thats just about all they're good for these days. I can't find one ship in the Caldari race that's better than an equal classed ship. Actually.. I can't find anything really good about Caldari anymore. They are lowest DPSers They do have ECM. But ECM aint as good as Dampning... Sure they have good passive tanks, but they will still lose any 1on1 fight vs. any other race. They cant hit fast ships with their missiles. Whats left besides NPC? Caldari doesnt fit the "story line" anymore. Figure something out, cuz this is kinda sad. Its always a good idea to change your tampon before playing EVE Online.
Caldari Incognito	Posted - 2007.10.04 20:36:00 - [49] Originally by: Dretzle Omega One question I have after reading much of this thread, is why do people think that just because Caldari work best in group scenarios that they suck? In many games you'll have a class that works best in a group but PvPing alone would suck. I've heard of healer classes in other games. You take a healer/medic into PvP alone and obviously he will be ripped to shreds. You take a healer/medic with a group into PvP and the group as a whole will do better off than without the medic. So, if Caldari work most effectively in a group, why does that mean they are broken? Why does Caldari have to be able to win 1 on 1 fights in order to make them a race worth considering? The fact that you cant control a fight situation says it all. Caldari aint feared i a solo situation. I would go up against a Caldarii ship any day... if he scrams me, I drive away.. if he webs me, I warp.. if he does both, I know for a fact I can kill him, cuz then his tank is not there. Sure Caldari aint all crap.. true. But you cant name one class, where Caldari is the best. forget about good, Im talking BEST. And THATS unbalanced!
goodby4u Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.04 20:42:00 - [50] Edited by: goodby4u on 04/10/2007 20:43:10 Originally by: Caldari Incognito Originally by: Dretzle Omega One question I have after reading much of this thread, is why do people think that just because Caldari work best in group scenarios that they suck? In many games you'll have a class that works best in a group but PvPing alone would suck. I've heard of healer classes in other games. You take a healer/medic into PvP alone and obviously he will be ripped to shreds. You take a healer/medic with a group into PvP and the group as a whole will do better off than without the medic. So, if Caldari work most effectively in a group, why does that mean they are broken? Why does Caldari have to be able to win 1 on 1 fights in order to make them a race worth considering? The fact that you cant control a fight situation says it all. Caldari aint feared i a solo situation. I would go up against a Caldarii ship any day... if he scrams me, I drive away.. if he webs me, I warp.. if he does both, I know for a fact I can kill him, cuz then his tank is not there. Sure Caldari aint all crap.. true. But you cant name one class, where Caldari is the best. forget about good, Im talking BEST. And THATS unbalanced! Ive tested my caldari alt on the test server against a tempest pilot that can solo most people out there,my raven was not fitted to scram yeah,but he had a buffer tank....Mine i could get my shields back. The end result was us going into hull and me winning. Oh and on a side note he couldnt scram/web either,he had a pure buffer tank....Aswell as autos starting at point blank. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.04 20:45:00 - [51] Best bait Best tank Best sniper Best intie Best dictor Best cov ops Best bomber Best anti support Best EW BS Most mids ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
IKEELYOU	Posted - 2007.10.04 21:08:00 - [52] Originally by: Laboratus Best bait Not worth much. Passive armor tank with plates works great and can tackle. Quote: Best tank Not best PvP tank. No damage + no tackle = joke. Best active tank (dmg, no tackle) is maelstrom anyway. Quote: Best sniper Huh? Quote: Best intie My crusader pwns crows. All day. Quote: Best dictor Pass the stuff ur smoking. Quote: Best cov ops Arguable. Quote: Best bomber Huh? Ever hear of the hound. Quote: Best anti support Maybe. Munnin pwns though. Quote: Best EW BS Did you figure this out yourself? Only EW BS. Quote: Most mids Least mids post tank. Who gets the most post tank, why its gallente drone boats! OK you don't have to fit tank, but then u are obv paper thin.
goodby4u Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.04 21:16:00 - [53] Originally by: IKEELYOU Originally by: Laboratus Best bait Not worth much. Passive armor tank with plates works great and can tackle. Quote: Best tank Not best PvP tank. No damage + no tackle = joke. Best active tank (dmg, no tackle) is maelstrom anyway. Quote: Best sniper Huh? Quote: Best intie My crusader pwns crows. All day. Quote: Best dictor Pass the stuff ur smoking. Quote: Best cov ops Arguable. Quote: Best bomber Huh? Ever hear of the hound. Quote: Best anti support Maybe. Munnin pwns though. Quote: Best EW BS Did you figure this out yourself? Only EW BS. Quote: Most mids Least mids post tank. Who gets the most post tank, why its gallente drone boats! OK you don't have to fit tank, but then u are obv paper thin. 1)yeah but passive tank regens. 2)ok,but NH wins passive. 3)Rokh....Der. 4)Yes but the job of the inty is to tackle not fight others. 5)next to the sabre yeah,because of the mids. 6)Lol,dont think it matters. 7)Used to be,hound is better now. 8)Meh. 9)\o/ 10)armor tanks 4tw? __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.04 21:20:00 - [54] Lol, I see we got a forum specialist. Don't read the setups on the forum so bad and try to think for yourself. Outside the box... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
xBANDWAGONx	Posted - 2007.10.04 21:21:00 - [55] Edited by: xBANDWAGONx on 04/10/2007 21:21:12 all I can think to say is that not all races excell at solo pvp... there is nothing wrong with caldari's pvp ability so long as you get out off the mind set that a ship only has worth in pvp if it can solo. Hop in a gang and you'll see that your ability to forgo tracking and your superior tank will give you the upperhand in most situations. Additionally, in todays world of damps-online, your ability to use fof missiles are welcome in just about any gang situation. -- so as not to confuse you, everything below those two little lines is my forum signature. Now i just need to think or something worth putting here...
IKEELYOU	Posted - 2007.10.04 21:37:00 - [56] Quote: 1)yeah but passive tank regens. - I believe its vulture (extra base resists, extra low vs 1 less mid) but anyway its not all that useful outside sisi. You don't have much of an impact and people just ignore you if they cant break you. And running gang mods + SPRs is really hard on your cap, even with an injector. Quote: 2)ok,but NH wins passive. Sure but it doesn't do damage when passive, doesn't tackle. It's a nice thing to have in pve but pvp use is very limited (when passive). Quote: 3)Rokh....Der. Not so der. Mega is cheaper and does more damage at almost every range it can fire at and has better tracking. Pest is also cheaper, has more alpha and capless guns. The ability to fire at 250km max is rarely a real advantage. Rokh has a better tank, but tank in fleet fights... Quote: 4)Yes but the job of the inty is to tackle not fight others. Crusader tackles fine, and is faster. Now crow is a very good ceptor but if it were truly the best I would excpet it to completly pwn the others. Like the Sabre does. Plus now theres the new khanid one that is faster too now. Quote: 5)next to the sabre yeah,because of the mids. Slowest too (base speed/mass and least lows), easiest for anti-support to shoot. Heretic is very good now. In any case, I wouldn't call it the best because of the Sabre. Quote: 6)Lol,dont think it matters. They are all good at different things. Though amarr kinda got screwed with the nos nerf. Quote: 7)Used to be,hound is better now. Yep. Quote: 8)Meh. Less range, capless guns, drone bay, I think its even.Debatable though. Looks at 50 page eagle thread OK I won't go further on this one. Quote: 9)\o/ Haha yup. Here's another revelation. Domi is the best drone battleship.[/b] Quote: 10)armor tanks 4tw? Yes
Rikkr	Posted - 2007.10.04 21:40:00 - [57] @ Caldari Incognito; Omg stfu. Caldari kick ass. You're just a little b*tch. Get your skills up. Hahaha!
IKEELYOU	Posted - 2007.10.04 21:46:00 - [58] Originally by: Laboratus Lol, I see we got a forum specialist. Don't read the setups on the forum so bad and try to think for yourself. Outside the box... I'm not saying Caldari are crap laboratus. But I disagree with you saying all those ships are the best and think Gallente are better off. Top tier Gallente ships (feel free to argue): Ishkur, Vexor, Thorax, Megathron, Dominix, Myrmidon, Brutix, Astarte, Eos, Celestis, Arazu Crap Gallente ships: Ares, Eris. Good Gallente ships: everything else.
xBANDWAGONx	Posted - 2007.10.04 21:48:00 - [59] Originally by: Rikkr @ Caldari Incognito; Omg stfu. Caldari kick ass. You're just a little b*tch. Get your skills up. Hahaha! lol... you win this thread. A truer truth has not yet been spoken in this thread. I bow to your superior forum posting abilities. -- so as not to confuse you, everything below those two little lines is my forum signature. Now i just need to think or something worth putting here...
Jagre Hett	Posted - 2007.10.04 21:58:00 - [60] ok, I'll admit I'm a noob to this game so you can take my words with as much salt as you want although they will not be from my experience, more of how I have interpreted the arguments in this thread. So on one side I here Caldari suck because they can't solo pvp. Then I here they are, but they are good in groups. Then I hear that the other races that can solo are also good in groups. that to me is where the imbalance is. You have 3 races that can group and solo pvp very effectively (and still pve which is not really what late game EVE is about). Then you have this one race that can group pvp very effectively but are poor at solo pvp (granted they can pve like mad with missiles). How is this really balanced as I'm not seeing it?
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.04 22:48:00 - [61] Originally by: Zosana And yet Rokhs aren't that common in fleets compared to other ships. They're not bad, they're not great. And they're one of Caldari's best ships. It does say something about the state of the race. Says it all. [Balance] The Caldari problem.
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.10.05 00:16:00 - [62] Caldari race is roughly 50% of the playerbase (those figures are 2 years old, no clue now). Get in a fleet fight, count Caldari ships. See a problem? Not convinced yet? Ok, go browse some PvP alliance killboard and see what they fly and what they kill. Shocking! same pattern, Caldari are at the bottom of the barrel. What you will the most are drakes (a truly good ship, low DPS but high survivability which means you're rarely called primary and thus have a higher DPS since you shoot for longer, heh), crows (good ceptor) and now and then a HAC (they are dirt cheap). Caldari battleships? I just browsed BoB's killboard and had to go 8 pages to find a Scorpion and din't find any Rook or Falcon, they are so nber since the ECM nerfs. I found one Rokh too, hehe, one. Yeah, Caldari is great. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.10.05 00:42:00 - [63] Originally by: Sorja Caldari race is roughly 50% of the playerbase (those figures are 2 years old, no clue now). Get in a fleet fight, count Caldari ships. See a problem? Not convinced yet? Ok, go browse some PvP alliance killboard and see what they fly and what they kill. Shocking! same pattern, Caldari are at the bottom of the barrel. What you will the most are drakes (a truly good ship, low DPS but high survivability which means you're rarely called primary and thus have a higher DPS since you shoot for longer, heh), crows (good ceptor) and now and then a HAC (they are dirt cheap). Caldari battleships? I just browsed BoB's killboard and had to go 8 pages to find a Scorpion and din't find any Rook or Falcon, they are so nber since the ECM nerfs. I found one Rokh too, hehe, one. Yeah, Caldari is great. You're quite right. Caldari got tons of issues. Certain caldari bloodlines got to little charisma, causing far to many to make their alts caldari. Caldari were to strong a few years back, with cavalry ravens and multiple mwds. Please remove all older characters from game, have them create new characters. Today is pale compared to yesterday. The description of caldari when creating characters makes far to many choose caldari right away. The looks of caldari females seem to pull even more testosteronebombs to their race. Great idea looking at a killboard. I figured the bigger the better, so how about battleclinic.com or if you want something more 0.0 focused, Burn Edens(not for size, but for proving a point)? Do try the same statistics here, I didn't quite have the time to go through page after page, but general idea is more caldari BATTLESHIPS than amarr ships in total. And indeed, the Rokh is rarely the best choice and for a simple reason. It stands out. If the rest of the fleet is at 150km what point is it having a few 3-4 sitting ducks at 200? If the majority of the fleet was at 200km... Is this a matter of game balance or of FC? Another reason for the huge attendance of caldarians in fleet battles, is the fact that quite a number of caldaripilots go for missiles - only. Which means... No point in arguing about the abilities of synchronizing turrets and missiles at long range. Out of sheer interest, mind doing the stats of all the recons as you begun? Postcount: 176774 [02:40:22] <elmickers> if you're caldari in a fleet fight, bring a corp
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.05 01:54:00 - [64] I agree that Caldari are pretty fubar right now. The only Caldari ship I fly in PvP with any regularity these days is my HAMhawk (nighthawk with HAMs), and even that isn't all that great (especially since I have to run two reactor control II's to make it fit). I think I've used a raven in PvP twice in the last year, and one of those times was because I'd been using it to kill a POS immediately prior (we took the POS-killing gang to bust up a gatecamp). The raven's extreme lack of mobility coupled with its inability to fit tackling gear or a MWD without compromising its tank make its use extremely limited. Then add in the lack of instant damage and you'll find ravens are only truly useful in PvP when in a gang whose damage dealers are mostly other missile ships (-cough- Burn Eden -cough-). I had a blaster rokh for a while, but I eventually realized that an AC maelstrom can match it in tank while putting out far superior DPS and having a better effective range, so I never replaced it after it got shot up. I could go on about other problems with Caldari ships, but most of them have already been covered. I'll just state that, in my opinion, the two largest problems with Caldari are: * The ships are ridiculously heavy, resulting in an extreme lack of mobility. * The inability to fit MWD, tackling gear, and/or E-war without massively compromising their tanks. If these are addressed, I'd expect to find people flying Caldari ships in PvP, finally, without getting laughed at. I doubt it will happen, but one can always hope. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Rikkr	Posted - 2007.10.05 03:54:00 - [65] Quote: Originally by: Rikkr -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- @ Caldari Incognito; Omg stfu. Caldari kick ass. You're just a little b*tch. Get your skills up. Hahaha! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- lol... you win this thread. A truer truth has not yet been spoken in this thread. I bow to your superior forum posting abilities lol. Thank you, thank you :)
Stuart Price Caldari Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.10.05 03:56:00 - [66] Hello. I am a Caldari specialist who's also branched out to fly some Gallente and Amarr ships. I've been pvp'ing in Caldari ships for 3 years now, so I have a pretty good idea of how they perform. Why Caldari are good in pvp: > They're EXCELLENT in gangs. They get excellent support ships and their damage dealers can hit very hard if the target is being tackled/locked down by something else. > Shield tanks can take more punishment than armour tanks over a short time generally speaking. Why Caldari are bad in pvp: > High mass and low speed compared to other ships in their class. > Shield tanks take midslots, meaning less ewar and tackle. This does mean more damage mods though. > Smaller drone bays. Drones can do more than just deal damage you know. Good ships to use in gangs: > Griffin. Yes, GRIFFIN. It's ridiculously cheap and with good skills/fitting you can lock TWO enemy ships out of combat through jamming (using racials). With a t1 frig. If you get killed so what? You lost pittance. > Harpy. I can shoot down light drones in orbit with mine. I can beat tracking from medium guns if I get really close. It's an underrated ship for sure. Other af's can beat it sure, but most 'ceptor pilots fear a good harpy pilot and well they should. > Drake. Possibly the finest bait ship in the game. Fully tanked it can take tremendous punishment and it's damage output might be weak but it's versatile. Pack fof's if you get jammed. Pack precisions for small targets. Optimals and tracking are meaningless, if it's in range, you can put damage on it. > Crow. A truly beautiful interceptor. It can engage at full speed, making it hard to kill except to ships that are faster or minny recons. > Rook/Falcon. My Falcon can travel cloaked and can lock down two other ships with relative ease, this makes it and excellent support ship. Wait for the fight to start, then decloak and take two people out of the fight. Rook has better jamming at the expense of being called primary a lot. > Raven. Yes RAVEN. The old bird can be vicious when used by a pilot who knows how to fit it. The days of dual-MWD-damp-torp-UBERALPHA ravens may be over but they're far from useless. > Rokh. Put t2 neutrons on it, load Null ammo. Melt stuff up to just over 30km with blasters whilst having a powerful tank. What can be done to address the problems Caldari pilots DO have? > Boost the Eagle. It should capable of much more than it is at the moment. The rokh shines with blasters due to the range it gets from them, medium blasters get nowhere near the same level of benefit. The Eagle can tank hard but when it's damage output is so low, who cares? > Make them lighter/faster overall. Range advantage only works if it can be maintained, at least give us a chance to do this! > Make missiles go faster at the expense of flight time (to give the same range) in order to counter speed-fits that can go faster than missiles... Blah this post could go on all day but I need to sleep. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.05 05:40:00 - [67] Originally by: Zosana And yet Rokhs aren't that common in fleets compared to other ships. They're not bad, they're not great. And they're one of Caldari's best ships. It does say something about the state of the race. Most gangs these days are just thrown together without pre planning. Caldari ships are very good in their nieces but unfortunately FCs don't bother using them atm. Not a problem with the game as such, just a problem with the players... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Panlean Vice	Posted - 2007.10.05 10:40:00 - [68] haven't read all this post - too much to read at work... but I will say this about caldari in pvp - don't think caldari = missiles and tank. You have other options equally as effective as the other races without having to fly other races. Having said that, the problem with caldari in pvp and using these said option, is that the performance of them is not set in stone. Its somewhat like playing russian roulette. If you think out of the box - you'll be able to as much as any other race. One thing I'll say is that since the advent of the drake - the ferox got overlooked, more's the pity cos now no one's exploring the real potential of the ferox - mostly because 99% of caldari think caldari = missiles.
Isan Danderoda Strix Armaments and Defence Acheron Federation	Posted - 2007.10.05 11:01:00 - [69] Having been to war with a Caldari PvP corp I have to say that I can't take the whining anymore. They were good...really good. Yeah, the DPS of Caldari ships looks bad on paper, but honestly they can take it to the others plenty well. I think the big problem is that people don't see both sides of the balance issue. Good range, variety of weapons (missiles and hybrids and drones), great ECM ships, tough tank. All said, yes, there are tradeoffs. And no, I imagine they aren't terribly good at one on one, but a well assembled group is stunningly brutal. So yeah, they may need a little tweaking, but honestly what most people are missing is the right strategy for Caldari ships. When employed correctly a totally Caldari fleet is devastating...much like anyone else. Play to your strengths and you will find just how well all of the races can do.
Caldari Incognito	Posted - 2007.10.05 12:49:00 - [70] Originally by: Isan Danderoda Having been to war with a Caldari PvP corp I have to say that I can't take the whining anymore. They were good...really good. Yeah, the DPS of Caldari ships looks bad on paper, but honestly they can take it to the others plenty well. I think the big problem is that people don't see both sides of the balance issue. Good range, variety of weapons (missiles and hybrids and drones), great ECM ships, tough tank. All said, yes, there are tradeoffs. And no, I imagine they aren't terribly good at one on one, but a well assembled group is stunningly brutal. So yeah, they may need a little tweaking, but honestly what most people are missing is the right strategy for Caldari ships. When employed correctly a totally Caldari fleet is devastating...much like anyone else. Play to your strengths and you will find just how well all of the races can do. Thats besides the point... tactics can do alot and bla bla.. The point is; how good are they compaired to other races. And sure they can do this and that at the expence of some thing else. The difference is.. the other classes dont have to sacrifice as much. Someone mentioned the fact that Caldari have the option of fitting damage modifiers in Low... Thats a MUST and the avg. DPS is setup to take that into consiteration.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.05 13:11:00 - [71] Originally by: Isan Danderoda When employed correctly a totally Caldari fleet is devastating...much like anyone else. Play to your strengths and you will find just how well all of the races can do. Of course there are no cheap and easy counters to a 100% Caldari fleet like a dedicated ECM group. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Hyakuchan Earth Federation Space Force	Posted - 2007.10.05 13:13:00 - [72] Originally by: Caldari Incognito The difference is.. the other classes dont have to sacrifice as much. Except Amarr. I don't see problems with Caldari. They have the things they're good at, and then they have the things they're supposed to be good at but aren't. You can say that about every race. Except Gallente. Their ships radiate dangerous levels of awesome. -------------------------------------------------- FRIGATS Coalition FREGE-Red-IAC-Goon-AAA-Tau-Southerncross "We gonna beat you with frigats."
Caldari Incognito	Posted - 2007.10.05 13:21:00 - [73] Originally by: Hyakuchan Originally by: Caldari Incognito The difference is.. the other classes dont have to sacrifice as much. Except Amarr. I don't see problems with Caldari. They have the things they're good at, and then they have the things they're supposed to be good at but aren't. You can say that about every race. Except Gallente. Their ships radiate dangerous levels of awesome. Amarr can still have 2 very important options of controlling battles.. speed and scramble, while they have a tank. I know they sacrifice dps to have a godlike tank, but they still have better dps than caldari with 1-2 BCU II.
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.10.05 13:30:00 - [74] Linkage There must be alot of morons in this game. _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.10.05 13:59:00 - [75] Um I disagree completely. The Rokh is probably the best sniper out there. At least in terms of range. The Caldari command ships are awesome. You can set the Nighthawk up to be completely immune to neut/nos and all forms of ew. Same for Cerb really. The Crow is, in my opinion, the best inty out there as you can tackle and cause dps well outside of web range. Yes missiles are low dps but when you think that you can select damage types, the relative dps is better than let's say lasers, and look, you don't even need cap to use them. There is a reason why even hardcore Amarr pilots were happy with the Khannid changes, and why the last two months some of us have been training up missile skills. What playing Amarr feels like.
xBANDWAGONx	Posted - 2007.10.05 14:43:00 - [76] Originally by: Sorja Not convinced yet? Ok, go browse some PvP alliance killboard and see what they fly and what they kill. Shocking! same pattern, Caldari are at the bottom of the barrel. What you will the most are drakes (a truly good ship, low DPS but high survivability which means you're rarely called primary and thus have a higher DPS since you shoot for longer, heh), crows (good ceptor) and now and then a HAC (they are dirt cheap). Caldari battleships? I just browsed BoB's killboard and had to go 8 pages to find a Scorpion and din't find any Rook or Falcon, they are so nber since the ECM nerfs. I found one Rokh too, hehe, one. Yeah, Caldari is great. Take a look at the burn eden killboard. They you'll see just how potent Caldari can be in the hands of competent pilots -- so as not to confuse you, everything below those two little lines is my forum signature. Now i just need to think or something worth putting here...
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.05 14:45:00 - [77] Originally by: Almarez Um I disagree completely. The Rokh is probably the best sniper out there. At least in terms of range. A range that is articifially capped at 250km. (And a Megathron can reach that range too if fitted correctly.) --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Elenath Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.10.05 15:30:00 - [78] Originally by: xBANDWAGONx Edited by: xBANDWAGONx on 05/10/2007 14:47:59 Originally by: Sorja Not convinced yet? Ok, go browse some PvP alliance killboard and see what they fly and what they kill. Shocking! same pattern, Caldari are at the bottom of the barrel. What you will the most are drakes (a truly good ship, low DPS but high survivability which means you're rarely called primary and thus have a higher DPS since you shoot for longer, heh), crows (good ceptor) and now and then a HAC (they are dirt cheap). Caldari battleships? I just browsed BoB's killboard and had to go 8 pages to find a Scorpion and din't find any Rook or Falcon, they are so nber since the ECM nerfs. I found one Rokh too, hehe, one. Yeah, Caldari is great. Take a look at the burn eden killboard. They you'll see just how potent Caldari can be in the hands of competent pilots(something this thread is lacking) Why does some moron always use Burn Eden as a way to defend Caldari being useless in PVP. Burn Eden do not 'PVP'. They gatecamp almost exclusively. They also always have at least one or two dictors present for said gatecamp. Also, damp Ravens used at a gatecamp do not make up for all the other crappy Caldari PVP ships.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.05 16:33:00 - [79] Originally by: Elenath Originally by: xBANDWAGONx Edited by: xBANDWAGONx on 05/10/2007 14:47:59 Originally by: Sorja Not convinced yet? Ok, go browse some PvP alliance killboard and see what they fly and what they kill. Shocking! same pattern, Caldari are at the bottom of the barrel. What you will the most are drakes (a truly good ship, low DPS but high survivability which means you're rarely called primary and thus have a higher DPS since you shoot for longer, heh), crows (good ceptor) and now and then a HAC (they are dirt cheap). Caldari battleships? I just browsed BoB's killboard and had to go 8 pages to find a Scorpion and din't find any Rook or Falcon, they are so nber since the ECM nerfs. I found one Rokh too, hehe, one. Yeah, Caldari is great. Take a look at the burn eden killboard. They you'll see just how potent Caldari can be in the hands of competent pilots(something this thread is lacking) Why does some moron always use Burn Eden as a way to defend Caldari being useless in PVP. Burn Eden do not 'PVP'. They gatecamp almost exclusively. They also always have at least one or two dictors present for said gatecamp. Also, damp Ravens used at a gatecamp do not make up for all the other crappy Caldari PVP ships. Burn Eden use ravens. Therefore ravens are uber? No sorry. Burn Eden are good at what they do, and use ravens in an effective manner. That's not the same thing at all. And incidentally, implementing the same tactics with a Rokh would probably work just as well, if not better. I've got solo kills in an osprey. I've got kills in a mining barge. I've seen people killing interceptors on covops ships, and I've seen scorpions taken down by badger IIs. This does not mean these ships are good. For every ship that sucks, there's a player who doesn't have their brain turned on. Caldari ships can be used well, and a 50 man blob of scorpions is scary. Yes, but that's not the point. The point is, is a blob of 50 ships of another race basically 'just better'. The answer is yes. Caldari suffer in PvP, because most PvP is at short ranges. Some PvP is at ultra-long ranges, and there they're able to hold their end up - the Rokh is considered acceptable in a fleet, if you can't fly a mega or a 'pest. But Caldari, much like amarr, have a mid-long range capability. They're really quite good at it. Which would matter, if there were any midrange combat in EVE, at all. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Aviticus Caldari Deviance Inc Karnal Knowledge	Posted - 2007.10.05 17:27:00 - [80] Simply put. Caldari need more gunships. Secondly, remove the Ferox. It's completely worthless.
maCH'EttE Veto.	Posted - 2007.10.05 17:33:00 - [81] To be honest, I would have agreed with you around 3 weeks ago. The thing I had to come to terms with, was that Caldari are basically not a solo Race. You simply can't be effective, having to drop at least 2 midslots for tackling. But, once I overcame their complete lack of solo options (except the Crow, which rocks), I began to love Caldari. I forgot about tackling completely and left that to my gang-mates. I concentrated on a good tank and good damage. And yes... Caldari can do good damage and tank well. Now, I love my Cerberus, and I'm fairly happy with my (active) Drake. I'm soon to step into a Rook and I already know I'm going to love it, and I can't wait to fly an Eagle (I'm waiting for better Hybrid skills). For solo, my advice is: Don't bother. I plan to train Gallente after I'm happy with my Hybrid skills, and then I can solo, but for now, I'm pretty happy. Originally by: Devil Hanzo (ISD) I got pwned!
Dretzle Omega Caldari Psychedelic Party Stellar Economy Experts	Posted - 2007.10.05 17:34:00 - [82] After another page or two, I'm starting to see the Pointlessness of this thread. People that have either never tried Caldari, or tried and failed to make it better than other ships they've used are going to be saying Caldari sucks (or Caldari solo sucks, and isn't any better at gang, etc). People that have either only used Caldari, have used Caldari effectively, or tried another race and failed to make it better than their Caldari ships are going to be saying that Caldari is good and effective. Each side is going to find their own proof, and each side is going to disregard the "proof" from the other side, either blatantly or subtley, intelligently or stupidly. ------------------- 4 8 15 16 23 42 108
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.10.05 17:41:00 - [83] Exactly right to the responder that said that inties are supposed to tackle not fight each other necessarily. The Rokh definitely gets the best range of all BS. What playing Amarr feels like.
Jagre Hett	Posted - 2007.10.05 17:51:00 - [84] Rohk's range is void if it's true that they can't stay at range and the fact that there is a hard cap on lock range that other sniper setups can reach as well.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.05 18:07:00 - [85] Originally by: maCH'EttE To be honest, I would have agreed with you around 3 weeks ago. The thing I had to come to terms with, was that Caldari are basically not a solo Race. You simply can't be effective, having to drop at least 2 midslots for tackling. But, once I overcame their complete lack of solo options (except the Crow, which rocks), I began to love Caldari. I forgot about tackling completely and left that to my gang-mates. I concentrated on a good tank and good damage. And yes... Caldari can do good damage and tank well. Now, I love my Cerberus, and I'm fairly happy with my (active) Drake. I'm soon to step into a Rook and I already know I'm going to love it, and I can't wait to fly an Eagle (I'm waiting for better Hybrid skills). For solo, my advice is: Don't bother. I plan to train Gallente after I'm happy with my Hybrid skills, and then I can solo, but for now, I'm pretty happy. The problem you have got, is _every_ race works very well indeed if you can ignore the essential 3-4 PvP mods - MWD, web, scram, and maybe injector. OK, so some still need the MWD. But ... same thing still applies. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Bad Borris	Posted - 2007.10.05 18:31:00 - [86] Edited by: Bad Borris on 05/10/2007 18:32:37 I think caldari are underpowered in pvp. Certainly the ships I can fly well seem underpowered when compared to other races. They have some good ships (rokh, crow and nighthawk) but most of the line up is decidedly average (ferox, vulture, caracal, drake, raven, flycatcher, hawk, eagle) and the good ships that they have are also far from the best in class and never as versatile as other ships. I dont think the ships are balanced particularly badly but I do think that too much value is assigned to the range advantage of many caldari ships at the expense of far more useful bonuses such as damage, speed and ablility to tackle without sacrificing tank. This is partly the fault of the mechanics of the game and the way most pvp is conducted. Being able to select damage types is also rolled out as an advantage of missiles but this advantage is severely hindered by the fact that a wrong choice of missile (often a matter of luck) can see a caldari ship hitting heavy tank reducing already mediocre damage to next to nothing and facing a choice of changing to a different (but not necessarily better choice) damage type. The caldari racial bonus to kinetic missiles only does not make sense to me either. Caldari ships seem unecessarily heavy and slow which makes many of them poor choices for fast moving gangs (the caldari pilot will often be the slow boat who gets owned while the others flee into the distance). If we look at the damage types gallente can use (drones, railguns and blasters) they have the best ship specialising in the use of each one. Caldari meanwhile have 1 or 2 viable blaster ships and 1 or 2 viable rail ships none of which excel. As for missiles, it should come as no surprise that the one race which has virtually nothing to do with them (gallente) are seen as the superior pvp race. Only time will tell whether these new amarr missile boats beat caldari at there own, pretty redundant game. Caldari do have good recon ships although, even though I fly neither a rook or a falcon in pvp I do get the distinct impression that the consensus is that the other races have superior ships in terms of damage and speed if not the ewar componant itself. Minmatar and gallente especially seem to have the pick of the pack as far as pvp is concerned. By xmas I should be well on the way to being half decent in gallente ships.... Shame really.
Viper Sam Minmatar Sissy Boys	Posted - 2007.10.05 20:02:00 - [87] Truth: Caldari ships do have quite a few FUNDAMENTAL problems. There is no denying that and if you choose to deny it, good for you but it won't change the facts. Fundamental Problem #1: Caldari ships are the ONLY ships in the game that you cannot solo PVP with (with the exception of the Crow). Why? The other three races come with a plethora of solo-ready ships. That is a fundamental problem. Period. Fundamental Problem #2: Caldari ships with their Kinetic damage bonuses. Why? All other races get ROF or damage bonuses. You don't see damage specific bonuses with the new Amarr missile changes? Why? CCP is aware of the flaws with damage specific bonuses. They weren't going to implement something they know to be flawed. It's true that Caldari ships are great for fleet warfare. But this is because most Caldari ships fit niches. What this translates to is crappy PVP solo ability. This would be fine except for the fact that it's not in line with the rest of the races. Why are Caldari so much different? Why are the other races' ships so much more rounded? There ARE fundamental problems with Caldari ships. Deny it if you want but it doesn't change facts.
Karrade Krise	Posted - 2007.10.05 21:25:00 - [88] If scorpions suck so bad...........why are they almost always called primary? :D
IKEELYOU	Posted - 2007.10.05 22:10:00 - [89] Originally by: Karrade Krise If scorpions suck so bad...........why are they almost always called primary? :D Because they have no tank!?! In truth, scorp isn't a bad ship, but the scorp isn't caldari as a whole. Now ferox and moa on the other hand...
Viper Sam Minmatar Sissy Boys	Posted - 2007.10.05 22:35:00 - [90] Originally by: IKEELYOU Originally by: Karrade Krise If scorpions suck so bad...........why are they almost always called primary? :D Because they have no tank!?! In truth, scorp isn't a bad ship, but the scorp isn't caldari as a whole. Now ferox and moa on the other hand... They're also ECM ships. It makes perfect sense to primary them.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.05 22:39:00 - [91] Originally by: IKEELYOU Originally by: Karrade Krise If scorpions suck so bad...........why are they almost always called primary? :D Because they have no tank!?! In truth, scorp isn't a bad ship, but the scorp isn't caldari as a whole. Now ferox and moa on the other hand... Indeed. Because a scorpion melts faster than an icecream dropped into the middle of a blast furnace. Oh, and ECMs are annoying. Not overpowering, but irritating none the less. Scorp... has potential, but ask any FC which would you rather have: Scorpion or T2 sniper. Ferox and moa smell. Badly. Merlin isn't great. Harpy does well, but then it does 'mostly rails'. Rokh is fairly well designed to do it's thing. Eagle... hurts badly. So does the vulture, but no one cares it does 'wet fish' grade damage. Missile boats do 'ok' ad mid range, poor damage at short range, and suffer damage lag at long range. Actually I don't mind that - they're midrange, and not great at it, but effective at short and long ranges. 's kinda cool. I hate the 'kinetic only' missile bonuses. Those are annoying, and IMO missiles should all be homogenous damage types, and efficiency. In all fairness, I have to say ECMs are still fairly unique and valuable - they're just overshadowed by RSDs at the moment. IMO prior to the ECM nerf, I don't actually think scorpions, rooks and falcons were all that bad - good at jamming, rubbish at everything else, and could fit a plate. Now they can't even fit the place, and are less good than they were. Hey ho. I remain of the opinion that a return to 'prenerf' levels FOR THE ECM SHIPS wouldn't be overpowering. shrug I fly caldari. I'm resigned to doing the least damage, and the least tank, if I want the key three PvP mods. does this mean I can't win fights? No, not at all. It just means I have to be creative, and not engage anyone on a fair footing. Oh wait. That's the definition of underpowered, isn't it? Oh well. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.05 22:43:00 - [92] Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/10/2007 22:46:10 Originally by: Sharupak Linkage There must be alot of morons in this game. The majority of those Caldari figures are probably npc'ers. I'd be willing to bet both Gallente and Minmatar are more popular for dedicated pvp. The faction ship numbers say it all, you think people are pvp'ing in those CNR's? lol [Balance] The Caldari problem.
Donna Maria Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.05 23:04:00 - [93] Originally by: Caldari Incognito Edited by: Caldari Incognito on 04/10/2007 09:55:10 You are right James. Caldari can field a massive tank, but at the cost of controlling the battle. You can never have a tanked ship AND hold a hostile. hence.. you can always get away from a Caldari. you just dont have room for scrambler and web AND mwd. loose one of them and ALL ships are faster. Fit all 3 of em and your tank goes faster than lighting Just because everyone else does it doesnt mean you have too... [Hint, Armor tanks aren't just for Gallente..] Btw, PVP Ravens with Armor tanks and Sensor Damps have been know to be troublesome.. Im the girl momma warned you about..
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.05 23:30:00 - [94] Originally by: Donna Maria Originally by: Caldari Incognito Edited by: Caldari Incognito on 04/10/2007 09:55:10 You are right James. Caldari can field a massive tank, but at the cost of controlling the battle. You can never have a tanked ship AND hold a hostile. hence.. you can always get away from a Caldari. you just dont have room for scrambler and web AND mwd. loose one of them and ALL ships are faster. Fit all 3 of em and your tank goes faster than lighting Just because everyone else does it doesnt mean you have too... [Hint, Armor tanks aren't just for Gallente..] Btw, PVP Ravens with Armor tanks and Sensor Damps have been know to be troublesome.. A T2 armour tanked raven, has a 265dps tank, for a little under three minutes. And does 270 dps (313 with faction missiles). That's really not very impressive. OK, so it gets some RSDs to go with it. (well, MWD, web, warp disruptor = 3 RSDs, which isn't sloppy I'll admit). And a 75m3 dronebay. But really. There's cruisers that do better than that. You might have a hard time doing both that much tank, and that much gank on a thorax, but I'd be prepared to bet you weren't all that far off. Even moreso if you factor in relative signature radius. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2007.10.05 23:46:00 - [95] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Donna Maria Originally by: Caldari Incognito Edited by: Caldari Incognito on 04/10/2007 09:55:10 You are right James. Caldari can field a massive tank, but at the cost of controlling the battle. You can never have a tanked ship AND hold a hostile. hence.. you can always get away from a Caldari. you just dont have room for scrambler and web AND mwd. loose one of them and ALL ships are faster. Fit all 3 of em and your tank goes faster than lighting Just because everyone else does it doesnt mean you have too... [Hint, Armor tanks aren't just for Gallente..] Btw, PVP Ravens with Armor tanks and Sensor Damps have been know to be troublesome.. A T2 armour tanked raven, has a 265dps tank, for a little under three minutes. And does 270 dps (313 with faction missiles). That's really not very impressive. OK, so it gets some RSDs to go with it. (well, MWD, web, warp disruptor = 3 RSDs, which isn't sloppy I'll admit). And a 75m3 dronebay. But really. There's cruisers that do better than that. You might have a hard time doing both that much tank, and that much gank on a thorax, but I'd be prepared to bet you weren't all that far off. Even moreso if you factor in relative signature radius. That means nobody use RSD ravens, right? Why would you risk a 100M battleship if you can do the same with a 5M cruiser. Oh, wait, they are extremelly popular in pvp... And Burn Eden must be really stupid to be using Ravens for years since other battleships perform better doing the same job, right? Or maybe what they do is not classifiable as "pvp". They must be fighting npcs with strong personalities. Give me a break guys. Caldari are extremelly good if you use them right. The ARE better than other classes in gangs depending on what you want the gang to perform. And they are equal in other situations. The situations where they are worse in gangs are rare and very specific. In 1v1 most Caldari ships do not perform greatly, but only a few perform badly. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Donna Maria Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.05 23:47:00 - [96] Umm, I fit a full rack of cruise launchers with faction missles, with my T2 drones and I do fine... Torpedos and target painters can also mix it up. Im the girl momma warned you about..
Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.06 00:41:00 - [97] Originally by: Caldari Incognito It's almost like Caldari have been pushed to the side and left there to npc. Thats just about all they're good for these days. I can't find one ship in the Caldari race that's better than an equal classed ship. Actually.. I can't find anything really good about Caldari anymore. They are lowest DPSers They do have ECM. But ECM aint as good as Dampning... Sure they have good passive tanks, but they will still lose any 1on1 fight vs. any other race. They cant hit fast ships with their missiles. Whats left besides NPC? Caldari doesnt fit the "story line" anymore. Figure something out, cuz this is kinda sad. They are all incognito flying gallente, amarr and minmatar THUKKER -Be Paranoid
Bonny Lee Caldari God's Army Corp OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.06 00:52:00 - [98] Burn Eden killed me in their Ravens in Deklein one year ago. And they killed a lot of others too. You may think: uhm one year ago so many things have changed... One important thing hasnt changed: One year ago lots of people told me not to pvp with caldari ships and that it is a joke to use a raven for it. The same people got smashed by Burn Eden over and over again. Burn Eden told me (thx g) that you¦ll never become good if you listen to the people crying that their race is sooo ******* bad and every other race is so much better in almost everything. Think about your Ship and your Race and you¦ll find a lot of good fittings able to kill other ships. Those crying babys would lose in a cane or a myrmidon too.
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.10.06 01:20:00 - [99] It's quite funny some people point at the Burn Eden killboard Unless you're a complete noob at this game, you KNOW they've using ravens and you know why. If you don't know why, it's quite easy: they know each other and play to the full advantage of the ships they are flying. They would as successfull with other races TBH. They first were successfull with jamming ravens, they adapted to dampeners (not sure about that, long time I haven't seen them) and when damps get nerfec they'll adapt to something else, maybe another race for a change. Now, if someone would lead pure Caldari fleets, they would be devastating because they would be optimizing their strenghts. For example, a Rokh in a mixed fleet is inferior to many BS, especially a Megathron. But with a 100% Rokh fleet, you could (theoretically) engage out of range of the enemy fleet and with the appropriate Crows and Flycatchers lock the enemy down. Unfortunately, that's only theoretical. When flying in alliances, the fleet commander has to deal with what he gets and there's nothing surprizing fights take place 90% of the time at ranges where Caldari ships are inferior to others (5-40) and the 10% long range combats do not favor Caldari because missiles are useless and Rokhs are outmatched. On top of that, the Caldari agility nerf (was it 3 or 4 years ago?) was never reverted and they make overall poor solo ships. This is balanced, maybe, by their excellent PvE abilities. In a nutshell, it's not that Caldari ships are bad on paper, it's they are outclassed on the field excepted a very few ships that shine, without being better than other races though. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.10.06 01:28:00 - [100] Originally by: Karrade Krise If scorpions suck so bad...........why are they almost always called primary? :D Heh, this reminds me of something funny. Before the ECM nerf (that CCP presented as an overhaul, my foot), I had lost more scorpions than interceptors The reason is twofold: 1¦ people hate to be jammed 2¦ scorpions go down faster than a 10$ hooker. There's also a historical reason for this, old school fleet commanders call scorpions first out of habbit. After the nerf, thanks to the wonderfull random system, I lost yet another scorpion in a 5 vs 5 engagement, just because none of my jammers landed (and it's not because of electronics skills, believe me...) At the same time, people came here and posted screenshots showing a Scorp having 7 targets jammed at the same time. It was so silly I never flew a Scorpion ever, if I want a chance based game, I can play dice. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.06 01:31:00 - [101] Originally by: James Lyrus web, warp disruptor You don't need to fit either of those unless you are alone.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.06 01:43:00 - [102] Originally by: Sorja They would as successfull with other races TBH No, they would not be. No other racial ship can fit high dps and high amounts of ewar at the same time enabling the devastating combination of long range high damage weaponry and maximum range reduction in its opponents. The Maelstrom probably can now, but that wasnt available to BE at the time of their creation and skilling. As well, it lacks the free high slots, and the missiles dps at the ranges they typically operate.
Zana Kito Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.06 01:43:00 - [103] Are people trying to balance eve based on 1v1? Seriously that is not possible. Even small gangs are hard to balance. Now, large gangs or fleets, things even out. Go look at any large alliance kill boards and you will see a large representation from caldari ships. Far from being useless, they own pve now and perform excellent in gang/fleet pvp. You want them to excel at EVERYTHING? Go take a look at armarr ships if you think caldari suck.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2007.10.06 02:13:00 - [104] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Sorja They would as successfull with other races TBH No, they would not be. No other racial ship can fit high dps and high amounts of ewar at the same time enabling the devastating combination of long range high damage weaponry and maximum range reduction in its opponents. The Maelstrom probably can now, but that wasnt available to BE at the time of their creation and skilling. As well, it lacks the free high slots, and the missiles dps at the ranges they typically operate. Wow, apparently you're still a moron. No other race's ships can have similar DPS or EW at the same time? What are you talking about?! Care to elaborate? I can come up with plenty of ships that can equal or surpass the DPS of a Caldari ship and still fit EW or damps. Moron.
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.06 02:18:00 - [105] Edited by: Wrayeth on 06/10/2007 02:18:35 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Sorja They would as successfull with other races TBH No, they would not be. No other racial ship can fit high dps and high amounts of ewar at the same time enabling the devastating combination of long range high damage weaponry and maximum range reduction in its opponents. Raven? High DPS? WTF are you smoking? With an armor tank the raven does 300-ish DPS, which is less than many cruisers. Even with 3 ballistic controls you're still looking at half(-ish) the DPS of a turret BS. You're making the common mistake of assuming more damage mods = more (or even good DPS). This is not true at all. A neutron blasterthron with NO damage mods does more DPS than a raven with three of 'em last I checked, for instance. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.06 03:32:00 - [106] Edited by: Goumindong on 06/10/2007 03:33:03 Originally by: Silence Duegood Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Sorja They would as successfull with other races TBH No, they would not be. No other racial ship can fit high dps and high amounts of ewar at the same time enabling the devastating combination of long range high damage weaponry and maximum range reduction in its opponents. The Maelstrom probably can now, but that wasnt available to BE at the time of their creation and skilling. As well, it lacks the free high slots, and the missiles dps at the ranges they typically operate. Wow, apparently you're still a moron. No other race's ships can have similar DPS or EW at the same time? What are you talking about?! Care to elaborate? I can come up with plenty of ships that can equal or surpass the DPS of a Caldari ship and still fit EW or damps. Moron. You find me a non-caldari ship that puts out 500 dps @ 50km->70km and still fields 5 damps with propulsion[or 3 damps with full tackle] and little to no issues hitting ships of any size while still fitting a cloak. The Maelstrom is the only one that comes close, but it cant due to needing tracking mods
Death Merchant InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.10.06 04:43:00 - [107] Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 06/10/2007 02:18:35 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Sorja They would as successfull with other races TBH No, they would not be. No other racial ship can fit high dps and high amounts of ewar at the same time enabling the devastating combination of long range high damage weaponry and maximum range reduction in its opponents. Raven? High DPS? WTF are you smoking? With an armor tank the raven does 300-ish DPS, which is less than many cruisers. Even with 3 ballistic controls you're still looking at half(-ish) the DPS of a turret BS. You're making the common mistake of assuming more damage mods = more (or even good DPS). This is not true at all. A neutron blasterthron with NO damage mods does more DPS than a raven with three of 'em last I checked, for instance. Heh not if the blasterthron can't fire a shot
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.06 06:00:00 - [108] Originally by: Death Merchant Heh not if the blasterthron can't fire a shot Then it's a good thing all Caldari ships receive a bonus to ECM or sensor dampers, and have enough speed to prevent the blasterthron from MWDing right up to them and killing them. Oh, wait... -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Danjira Ryuujin	Posted - 2007.10.06 06:46:00 - [109] Missiles fly slowly. True story.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.06 10:10:00 - [110] Edited by: Laboratus on 06/10/2007 10:11:10 Originally by: Wrayeth Raven? High DPS? WTF are you smoking? With an armor tank the raven does 300-ish DPS, which is less than many cruisers. Even with 3 ballistic controls you're still looking at half(-ish) the DPS of a turret BS. You're making the common mistake of assuming more damage mods = more (or even good DPS). This is not true at all... WTF are you smoking? You are comparing close range setups to long range setups. If you compare long range to long range You will notice that gun ships can barely out dps a cruise raven without damage mods with 3 damage mods. If the raven is fitting light tank and 3 damage mods they do over 200 more dps than their gun boat equivalents, that use 7 suppert mods to get the range and damage the raven gets with 0 mods. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.06 11:11:00 - [111] Originally by: Laboratus WTF are you smoking? You are comparing close range setups to long range setups. If you compare long range to long range You will notice that gun ships can barely out dps a cruise raven without damage mods with 3 damage mods. If the raven is fitting light tank and 3 damage mods they do over 200 more dps than their gun boat equivalents, that use 7 suppert mods to get the range and damage the raven gets with 0 mods. And that's why cruise missiles are the preferred sniper weapon. I could mention the effective damage reduction that comes with flight time, but I am tired of that discussion. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.06 13:15:00 - [112] Yes, and we are talking about burn Eden, and nothing but the raven can do so much DPS at 50-70km while still supporting a full rack of ewar and a cloak. You cannot do this with anything but caldari ships.
Aramendel Amarr North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.06 14:31:00 - [113] Edited by: Aramendel on 06/10/2007 14:33:46 Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: IKEELYOU Originally by: Karrade Krise If scorpions suck so bad...........why are they almost always called primary? :D Because they have no tank!?! In truth, scorp isn't a bad ship, but the scorp isn't caldari as a whole. Now ferox and moa on the other hand... Indeed. Because a scorpion melts faster than an icecream dropped into the middle of a blast furnace. Not ...exactly. The scorpiop with 1 1600mm and 3 ECM mods has less effective HP than...lets say...a fleet fitted megathron with 1 1600mm plate and a DC2. 37k average HP compared to 60k average HP. But: this is not because the scorp is gimped. At least compared to other equal ships. Which the megathron isn't - it is a tier2 BS and the scorp is a tier 1 BS. With 1 slot less and a smaller amount of base HP. If you compare it vs a geddon - the only other tier1 BS which is worth using in sniper fleets - it has more HP. Since the geddon does not even have the room for a plate in a fleet setup and ends up with 30k HP. The scorp, as said, has 37k. And, pre ECM nerf the scorp had essentially the same ECM power as it has now with 3 ECM mods (with 3 it is at 94% of its prenerf lvl) - and 4 free low slots instead 1 for a hp buffer. With a 1600mm plate, 1 DC2 and 2 EAN2 it has 68k effective HP. More than a fleet fitted mega. It it was STILL primary. Low HP is only a minor reason why the scorp is called primary now (even if with that argumenation it should be secondary after geddons) and never was a reason why it got called primary pre ecm nerf. It is called primary because it can on average disable 3 dps BS on cost of 1 dps BS. This makes it while it is alive the most dangerous ship in a fleet.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.10.06 14:46:00 - [114] Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Missiles fly slowly. True story. Cruise missiles on a Raven go 8500m/sec. I don't know what universe this is considered slow in.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.06 15:07:00 - [115] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 06/10/2007 13:44:29 Yes, and we are talking about burn Eden, and nothing but the raven can do so much DPS at 50-70km while still supporting a full rack of ewar and a cloak. You cannot do this with anything but caldari ships. Edit: Nothing but the raven and the new Nightmare... Dominix, Hyperion? --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.06 15:18:00 - [116] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 06/10/2007 13:44:29 Yes, and we are talking about burn Eden, and nothing but the raven can do so much DPS at 50-70km while still supporting a full rack of ewar and a cloak. You cannot do this with anything but caldari ships. Edit: Nothing but the raven and the new Nightmare... Dominix, Hyperion? Nope, they dont. Try again.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.06 15:22:00 - [117] People should stop using burn eden as examples of caldari in PvP. The vast, vast majority of burn eden's kills are facilitated by the use of huginns and non-caldari interdictors. Remove those, and i seriously doubt they'd get anywhere near as many kills as they do. They use a non-caldari module. Their style of combat is also totally different to "normal" PvP (not that it lacks merit). Yes, the raven is versatile, and yes it CAN be fitted for EW, but this EW capability will soon be nerfed to the ground and its versatility is debatable unless supported by a huginn with painters and webs.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.06 15:30:00 - [118] Originally by: Elmicker People should stop using burn eden as examples of caldari in PvP. The vast, vast majority of burn eden's kills are facilitated by the use of huginns and non-caldari interdictors. Remove those, and i seriously doubt they'd get anywhere near as many kills as they do. They use a non-caldari module. Their style of combat is also totally different to "normal" PvP (not that it lacks merit). Yes, the raven is versatile, and yes it CAN be fitted for EW, but this EW capability will soon be nerfed to the ground and its versatility is debatable unless supported by a huginn with painters and webs. BE doesnt use a lot of Huginns. And their builds transfer well into small gang PvP. As well, passive tanked missile ships perform just fine in that type of warfare, and their rail ships are second to none in terms of sniping ability. Even after the coming damp nerf they will be fine, since the most important part of the damp is the lock range. Take the lock time reduction away and its less powerful yes, but it is still strong. BE can use any dictor they want for their tactics, so long as it can **** bubbles and web.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.06 15:44:00 - [119] Edited by: Elmicker on 06/10/2007 15:44:49 Originally by: Goumindong BE doesnt use a lot of Huginns. Are you sure? (Also, rapiers) Quote: And their builds transfer well into small gang PvP. Not really. Ravens are too slow for small gang pvp. In that arena, it's all about being able to move quickly to avoid combat. They choose to avoid combat by ensuring all their slow ships (the ravens) can cloak easily. Quote: As well, passive tanked missile ships perform just fine in that type of warfare Incorrect again. Passive tanked missile ships struggle to deal any reasonable DPS, lose any EW they'd normally be fitting, and will struggle to run an MWD. Quote: and their rail ships are second to none in terms of sniping ability. Don't make me lol, please. Quote: Even after the coming damp nerf they will be fine, since the most important part of the damp is the lock range. Take the lock time reduction away and its less powerful yes, but it is still strong. Not contesting this (you're right), but have CCP confirmed how they'll be nerfing damps, yet?
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.06 16:05:00 - [120] So BE engage fights that are not favorable to their enemies and they use Caldari ships make Caldari uber? Honestly, armor tankers are kings in this game at the moment. If you are smart, don't fly Caldari or fly Caldari in fights that you can win. The problem with Caldari is too many people are playing theory online. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.06 16:47:00 - [121] Edited by: Goumindong on 06/10/2007 16:49:57 Originally by: Elmicker ... Passive tanked shield ships have plenty of lows for istabs, ravens are no less agile than any armor tanked battleship. Quote: Incorrect again. Passive tanked missile ships struggle to deal any reasonable DPS, lose any EW they'd normally be fitting, and will struggle to run an MWD. No, they do fine dps, at great ranges, and run their MWD as long as any other battleship can. A siege raven with named siege launchers fit for dps does nearly 921 dps. That aint great, but it isnt bad either. Quote: sniping Eagle and Vulture are the two best anti-support snipers bar none. The Rokh does nearly as much dps as a Megathron with either much much more range, or 4 times the tracking while having a much larger HP buffer. Quote: Not contesting this (you're right), but have CCP confirmed how they'll be nerfing damps, yet? I am assuming it is like oveur said and they will make damps into a toggle, either range or lock time, but not both at the same time. Range is the most important factor for most combat and the nerf wont have too much of an effect. As i stated, the problem with caldari has nothing to do with the majority of ship designs, or any fundamental part of the game. It has to do with short range missile fitting, and a few problems with specific ships.
El Sid	Posted - 2007.10.06 17:21:00 - [122] Caldari ships are great in gangs. They do suck solo, except crow, but you have to live with it. T2 Siege Raven one of the best DD in gangs. Leave tackling to tacklers then just hit F1-F6, enjoy. Obviously Rook th best ewar ship too. Not bad i think.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.06 17:58:00 - [123] Edited by: Elmicker on 06/10/2007 17:59:38 Edited by: Elmicker on 06/10/2007 17:59:01 Originally by: Goumindong Passive tanked shield ships have plenty of lows for istabs, ravens are no less agile than any armor tanked battleship. Passive tanked shield ships with istabs are not passive tanked. They merely have a large HP buffer. Quote: No, they do fine dps, at great ranges, and run their MWD as long as any other battleship can. A Passive tanked ship giving up a midslot and often fitting for an MWD seriously compromises their tank. Also, their DPS is **e. Compare a tanked harbinger to a tanked drake. The drake's DPS is significantly lower, for an increase in tank that in small gang warfare means nothing. Quote: A siege raven with named siege launchers fit for dps does nearly 921 dps. That aint great, but it isnt bad either. A siege raven fit for DPS is not a passive tanked ship, also bear in mind the DPS reduction on nearly every ship in the game due to the high explosion radius on torps, and the horribly low missile velocity. These two factors put a serious dent in actual DoT. Quote: Eagle and Vulture are the two best anti-support snipers bar none. Doesn't stop them being e, though, does it? Quote: The Rokh does nearly as much dps as a Megathron with either much much more range, or 4 times the tracking while having a much larger HP buffer. With 50% higher cost, no remote rep, fewer drones and a * time of fitting an effective and versatile fleet fit. The mega is the superior fleet ship. Originally by:** El Sid They do suck solo, except crow. The crow is not a solo ship. It deals 49 DPS and can't maintain a point + mwd for more than a minute or two. It's a tackler for gangs.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.06 18:40:00 - [124] Edited by: Goumindong on 06/10/2007 18:44:45 Originally by: Elmicker Passive tanked shield ships with istabs are not passive tanked. They merely have a large HP buffer. Newsflash, this is what passive tanked means. Quote: A Passive tanked ship giving up a midslot and often fitting for an MWD seriously compromises their tank. Also, their DPS is **e. Compare a tanked harbinger to a tanked drake. The drake's DPS is significantly lower, for an increase in tank that in small gang warfare means nothing. Hes, how about we do that 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Sensor Booster Faint Warp Prohibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Focused Medium Pulse Laser II Focused Medium Pulse Laser II Focused Medium Pulse Laser II Focused Medium Pulse Laser II Focused Medium Pulse Laser II Focused Medium Pulse Laser II Focused Medium Pulse Laser II [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] 59,000 hit points, 620 dps, cap lasts basically forever without the mwd on Compared to a drake Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Warp Scrambler II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] 65,000 hit points, 560 dps, cap lasts forever without the mwd on ed: Now you can cram a MARII on the Harbinger if you dump more dps, but it wont fit with an injector on, you have to drop an eanm[and 9000 effective hit points] in order to get the MAR on with the injector needed to run it and the guns. However, if you take the heat sink off you only do 545 dps, and tank 111 dps. If you run without the eanm, you only tank 86 dps, but your dps is higher. As well, the drake will passivly tank 111 dps in that setup[though only for a short time depending on incoming dps] making its passive buffer a tad bit nicer. Quote: A siege raven fit for DPS is not a passive tanked ship, also bear in mind the DPS reduction on nearly every ship in the game due to the high explosion radius on torps, and the horribly low missile velocity. These two factors put a serious dent in actual DoT. So long as the missiles travel faster than a comparably sized ship that has to engage at short range[which they do, by a long shot], then there isnt much of an issue to complain about dps, unless those ships can hit to long ranges without sacrificing the things that the Caldari can bring to the table such as ewar or tank. Quote: With 50% higher cost, no remote rep, fewer drones and a * time of fitting an effective and versatile fleet fit. The mega is the superior fleet ship. The rokh is easy to fit, not quite as easy as the Mega, but still really really easy. 8x guns, mwd, sb, sb, tc, tc, tc, dc, rcu, dmg, dmg, dmg. Quote: Doesn't stop them being **e, though, does it? Yea, it actually does.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.06 19:07:00 - [125] Originally by: Goumindong Newsflash, this is what passive tanked means. With reference to shields, yes it does. Though, nice comparison with the close-range damage drake to the low-damage harbinger, it made me giggle a bit. Quote: then there isnt much of an issue to complain about dps Torpedo explosion radius is 400m and unaffected by skills. You will see a significant DPS reduction on the tempest, and tier 1 BSes and below. Throw in the DoT reduction due to low missile velocity, and you're not dealing anywhere near your on paper dps to the vast majority of targets. Quote: Caldari can bring to the table such as ewar or tank. Good luck fitting a torp raven for EW + tank. Quote: The rokh is easy to fit, not quite as easy as the Mega, but still really really easy. 8x guns, mwd, sb, sb, tc, tc, tc, dc, rcu, dmg, dmg, dmg. Which results in no utility, no remote rep and a very slow locking time. Oh, and you'll cap out in most fleet battles with no injector.
queen1121 Empire Dreams	Posted - 2007.10.06 19:13:00 - [126] Not really good comparison perhaps, but when char with CS5 and really well specced in gallente/amarr ends flying drake with HAMs for lvl4 missions (while able to afford pretty much any fitting on ships(well apart from officer rechargers/relays) and doing just fine flying dampadrake around or flying damnation with 1mil in missiles... Caldari is actually decent race, but if you have no skills and no friends(alts:/) then you can't pvp. But hey, i can't carebear alone as well :/
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.06 19:38:00 - [127] Originally by: Elmicker With reference to shields, yes it does. Though, nice comparison with the close-range damage drake to the low-damage harbinger, it made me giggle a bit. What? You want to look at the amount of hit points the high damage harbinger does? That drake has twice the range of the FMP harb with as much dps and great tank. Its faster to boot. It is not my fault that you wont fit your ship reasonably. Quote: Good luck fitting a torp raven for EW + tank. Or. But its not that tough to fit a torp raven for either. Quote: Torpedo explosion radius is 400m and unaffected by skills. You will see a significant DPS reduction on the tempest, and tier 1 BSes and below. Throw in the DoT reduction due to low missile velocity, and you're not dealing anywhere near your on paper dps to the vast majority of targets. did you just miss the part about how i explained just how missile velocity is not as important as it seems in small gangs? Quote: Which results in no utility, no remote rep and a very slow locking time. Oh, and you'll cap out in most fleet battles with no injector. Mega has no injector, the remote rep isnt that big a deal[mega cant fit it with a plate anyway, which it needs to be halfway close to the rokh in hit points], and it locks in about the same time as any other battleship.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.06 19:52:00 - [128] Edited by: Elmicker on 06/10/2007 19:52:04 Originally by: Goumindong That drake has twice the range of the FMP harb with as much dps and great tank. Its faster to boot. It is not my fault that you wont fit your ship reasonably. This, from the champion of comparing fair fits? You compared a harbinger using the low damage turret to a drake using high damage missiles, then trotted out the drake as being superior due to higher dps dealt. Quote: did you just miss the part about how i explained just how missile velocity is not as important as it seems in small gangs? If anything, it's more important in small gangs. The predominant small gang FOTM is moar speed. Anything you target will likely just kite your missiles. Quote: Mega has no injector But it can fit a CPR and have its guns last nigh on half an hour. Seeing as you can't actually fit the plate without a cpu implant anyway it's not much of a loss. Quote: the remote rep isnt that big a deal Keep telling yourself that, maybe it'll come true. Mega also gets the benefit of having 5 med armour drones on board. Quote: and it locks in about the same time as any other battleship. 25% lower scan resolution than the megathron. Makes a massive amount of difference.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.06 19:59:00 - [129] Edited by: Goumindong on 06/10/2007 19:59:32 Originally by: Elmicker This, from the champion of comparing fair fits? You compared a harbinger using the low damage turret to a drake using high damage missiles, then trotted out the drake as being superior due to higher dps dealt. I compared the high hit point tanked harbinger to a similar hit point tanked drake. You want to look at what a HP harbinger passive tanked does? Pretty good dps, but really terrible on the "effective hit points" part, which is the important part of a passive tank. Quote: If anything, it's more important in small gangs. The predominant small gang FOTM is moar speed. Anything you target will likely just kite your missiles. Yea, except things like harbingers, thoraxes, and all the other things that arent stupidly fast that are flown all the damn time. Quote: But it can fit a CPR and have its guns last nigh on half an hour. Seeing as you can't actually fit the plate without a cpu implant anyway it's not much of a loss. Man what? What kind of crazy megathron are you looking at here? Quote: Keep telling yourself that, maybe it'll come true. Mega also gets the benefit of having 5 med armour drones on board. So does the Rokh... Quote: 25% lower scan resolution than the megathron. Makes a massive amount of difference. After two sensor boosters, not really.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.06 20:07:00 - [130] Edited by: Elmicker on 06/10/2007 20:07:35 Originally by: Goumindong Yea, except things like harbingers, thoraxes, and all the other things that arent stupidly fast that are flown all the damn time. In which case, you'll be losing oodles of damage to sig radius. Quote: Man what? What kind of crazy megathron are you looking at here? Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I 100MN MicroWarpdrive I Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II [empty high slot] (My remote rep setup utilises 350mm rails or blasters, and stacks more armour HP) Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Dropping the CPR lowers you to 684.25 CPU used, or 3.25 free. Congratulations, you can fit a 50mm RT plate. Quote: So does the Rokh... But sacrifices its 5 medium drones. Loses versatility.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.06 20:27:00 - [131] Edited by: Goumindong on 06/10/2007 20:28:22 Originally by: Elmicker In which case, you'll be losing oodles of damage to sig radius. Not really, no. Almost all cruisers have sigs above 120. All cruisers are above 400 with their mwd on. ed: That is a whacky megathron fit, but O.K.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.06 20:28:00 - [132] Edited by: Elmicker on 06/10/2007 20:28:55 Originally by: Goumindong Not really, no. Almost all cruisers have sigs above 120. All cruisers are above 400 with their mwd on. In which case you're losing dps to explosion velocity...? Originally by: Goumindong ed: That is a whacky megathron fit, but O.K. Knock yourself out providing me with a better one if you wish, goumindong.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.06 20:33:00 - [133] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Elmicker Passive tanked shield ships with istabs are not passive tanked. They merely have a large HP buffer. Newsflash, this is what passive tanked means. Absolute Tottenham. It's almost impossible to take you seriously after this comment.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.06 20:37:00 - [134] Edited by: Goumindong on 06/10/2007 20:40:54 Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Fits with a 3% CPU implant or a hybrid CPU rig.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.06 20:38:00 - [135] Edited by: Goumindong on 06/10/2007 20:39:11 Originally by: Elmicker In which case you're losing dps to explosion velocity...? The fit has a web... Originally by: Gypsio III Absolute Tottenham. It's almost impossible to take you seriously after this comment. No, its what passive tanking is. That shields can not only produce high amounts of hit points but also passive regen does not change the fact that a passive tank is about having hit points and not regen.
San Rintu	Posted - 2007.10.06 20:48:00 - [136] Edited by: San Rintu on 06/10/2007 20:51:45 In any DPS calculation, the Caldari always get shafted over by the fact that their's is probably the only real accurate one other than drone dps. Average DPS on any turret using ship should really be calculated based on your own skills rather than an equation that assumes you can hit something 100% of the time. Even if it's not a crow pulling obscene km/s around you, all but the pilots with 6m+ sp's in Gunnery are going to butt in and say there is no chance their guns will miss. For that reason, a Caldari pilot can mature into a bigger ship somewhat faster than many other races due to fact that their DPS tends to be absolute rather than chance. Before someone does the expected and say 'well I can take 'x' in my 'x'' then please take into account that this is hypothetical, there are always more experienced pilots than others regardless of their sp's and mistakes and errors in judgment are always made. For that reason, many that say the Drake is underpowered due to it's DPS should reside more with the can't fit a tank/control fitting at the same time. The DPS between the Tier 2 BC's is very similar taken from players of the same skill point base. As far as gang warfare goes, if a Caldari ship is fitted for a purpose (not to say just to its bonuses) it will perform as well as any other counterpart and if not better with similar sp's. Here's my view on the current common caldari ships: Caracal: Not a bad ship when used in a small gang. Several cara's can push out some harsh DPS. Lacking in any real ability to tank an better suited to be used in numbers. Moa: A ship like its big brother the Eagle that needs a serious looking into. It either needs an extra bonus or another low/med. Blackbird: For any T1 gang it is a quintessential ship. However people may slate ECM, the blackbird will hit well above it's weight and vs's the 'lestis with a similar skill pilot it would tear one to pieces. Ferox: Possibly the worst BC in the game. Go wear a red coat, a star trek badge and plead that something is done to save it. Needs much improvement. Drake: One of the most potent ships in the game for hitting above it's weight. Suffers from the tank or control problem but has the ability to fit a myriad of different setups to specialise in taking out many different targets. The Drake is nearly always something that people will think twice about. It's a marmite ship, if the fitting is solid it can bbq a ship in no time, if it's got a weakness the pilot has not addressed it will hit the floor quickly. Since the Nos nerf, Drakes can really smack some of the other Tier 2 BC's. Scorpion: Suffers from being overly good at it's job and hence targetted by groups of ships. If it cannot deal with all of it's targets then it may aswell self destruct. 1 on 1 a scorpion has the med slot ability to both control and dominate most other non capital ships in the game. Thing is...it just attracts gank squads... Raven: PvE great, PvP, great in numbers but not got the teeth. CCP need to rid those turret slots and make it like the Drake. A raven with 8 Missiles would be far better, hence the possibility of the T2 arrival. Rokh: A pilot with decent shield skills can make a Rokh an absolute Rock, no pun intended ;). The problem is that it's weapon bonuses are just a bit rubbish in line with other Tier 3 BS's. It either needs a bigger damage output or something to balance the fact that it has to be 200km+ away to be at it's best. There are not enough chances in game to do that unless you camp gates all day and have friends to tackle. That's just my opinion on the T1 ships. T2 one's are totally dependent on your skill choices before to decide how good they really are. With a decent skill set to back the ship up, they can be as good, if not better than their counterparts. In summary, I believe they need a little bit of tinkering. Just as much as the other races. I'm sure it's not to far away
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.06 20:50:00 - [137] Originally by: Goumindong The fit has a web... Well, then the argument is moot because any small ship pilot who, versus a larger ship, strays into web range, is an utter asshat and will likely die anyway. Quote: a passive tank is about having hit points and not regen. Not with shield.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.06 21:20:00 - [138] Originally by: Elmicker Not with shield. Quote: Well, then the argument is moot because any small ship pilot who, versus a larger ship, strays into web range, is an utter asshat and will likely die anyway. Well then, in which case the harbinger does 466 dps. And all Gallente blaster ships that arent battleships are useless. Oh wait.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.06 21:29:00 - [139] Originally by: Goumindong And all Gallente blaster ships are useless versus high-dps, short range, heavy tanking targets that routinely fit webs. Better, but still a ridiculous overgeneralisation.
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.10.06 21:31:00 - [140] Edited by: R3dSh1ft on 06/10/2007 21:39:19 I think its less about the base abilites of each race - which are fairly well balanced at the moment except for a few notable exceptions - and more about the majority of players' preferred tactics in combat. For instance the Rokh can do more long-range damage than any other battleship in the game at the moment (250km) with maximum gunnery skills as well as being able to field a very good passive shield tank (of 30k+ 60/70 resists) which will tank a single doomsday (or two explosive ones) as well as being a tad faster than the other tier 3s (due to not getting the speed nerf of fitting 2/3 trimarks). However the majority of fleet ships right now are armour tankers, which means in armour tanking setup gangs/fleets they are less effective as they can't be repped as effectively by the armor focussed logistics/carriers/titan bonuses. Fielding a fleet of mostly caldari with a leviathan in gang and a vulture would put your snipers out of range of most gangs as well as having a higher natural sensor strength. The maximum lock range hurts a bit here as its possible to get a Rokh's effective range out to 280km+. There are other examples where caldari can be better in their role (for instance hitting POS from ultra-long range without use of capacitor by fielding ravens). But due to the way fleet combat works at the moment such a configuration would not be sensible. So in summary its about the players' chosen tactics, not the base abilities of the ships. DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.06 21:42:00 - [141] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Goumindong And all Gallente blaster ships are useless versus high-dps, short range, heavy tanking targets that routinely fit webs. Better, but still a ridiculous overgeneralisation. Why? Because all larger ships are able to do high dps at short range and most routinly fit webs. Drakes[espeically the slightly lower dps hl drake] can shoot sooner and still web and scram. If you have to travel to do dps this makes the ship very advantagious. Because in a small gang fight you can not expect every ship to be webbed down, and short range high dmage ship can get up close and start doing dps. But they still have to move that travel time, and missile ships do not, but still can. A good/decent drake fit for small gangs might look like this Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II [empty low slot] 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Sensor Booster II Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I Heavy Missile Launcher II Heavy Missile Launcher II Heavy Missile Launcher II Heavy Missile Launcher II Heavy Missile Launcher II Heavy Missile Launcher II Heavy Missile Launcher II Information Warfare Link - Electronic Superiority Inverted Signal Field Projector I Inverted Signal Field Projector I [empty rig slot] Locks and attacks the primary, locks two-four other ships and damps them[ceptors are prime targets due to their low lock ranges]. Or damps one ship into oblivion. Moves decently fast, provides dps and ewar and secondary support bonuses. Each damp is 75.52%. It has 390mm scan res, and does 414 dps from missiles, 513 after Hammerheads. Cap lasts 13 minutes without the mwd, 17 minutes without the sensor boosters, forever without one damp.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.06 21:54:00 - [142] Originally by: Goumindong Why? Because all larger ships are able to do high dps at short range and most routinly fit webs. Pretty much, yeah. You wouldn't fly a deimos headlong into a battleship with your MWD running, would you? That'd just be idiocy. As for the rest of it, yeah, fairly sensible, though i'm sure most gang commanders would rather have you in a real ship.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.06 21:57:00 - [143] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Goumindong Why? Because all larger ships are able to do high dps at short range and most routinly fit webs. Pretty much, yeah. You wouldn't fly a deimos headlong into a battleship with your MWD running, would you? That'd just be idiocy. As for the rest of it, yeah, fairly sensible, though i'm sure most gang commanders would rather have you in a real ship. You know that is standard practice. You run the ship in, turn off the mwd and gank. So long as your arent primary it doesnt matter much, what matters is how fast you get in to do your dps. Caldari has no such worries.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.06 22:08:00 - [144] Originally by: Goumindong So long as your arent primary it doesnt matter much I take it you don't fly deimoses, then . Quote: Caldari has no such worries. No, but they have to worry about delayed DPS, explosion velocity, signature radius (though, this only really applies to rockets/hams/torps) and their missiles simply being kited, a very real possibility when every other ship is doing 4km/s. Not to mention their survivability is horrifically low. They're just too damned slow.
Aramendel Amarr North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.06 22:36:00 - [145] Originally by: Elmicker No, but they have to worry about delayed DPS, explosion velocity, signature radius (though, this only really applies to rockets/hams/torps) and their missiles simply being kited, a very real possibility when every other ship is doing 4km/s. The problem here is no cruiser and above can do dps vs a ship it is kiting at 4 km/s unless - it uses missiles - it uses drones Turrets will not track at these speeds. Against drones missileships are actually one of the strongest ships because they have the biggest burst dps with their low ROF. They can usually onesalvo drones of equal size. Against missiles..which missileships can kite? The sacriledge in a nanofit, sure - but contrary to popular opinion so can the cerberus. Other than that we have only hybrids which get part of the dps from missiles like the minmatar & gallente combat recons and the typhoon.
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.10.07 00:11:00 - [146] LOL guys, don't feed the trolls, er... I mean Goumindog. He knows as much about EVE as I do about cricket ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.07 00:17:00 - [147] Originally by: Sorja LOL guys, don't feed the trolls No, THIS is a troll. What goumindong was doing was providing an interesting topic of discussion backed up by numbers and statistics. So kindly, gtfo.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.07 00:21:00 - [148] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Goumindong So long as your arent primary it doesnt matter much I take it you don't fly deimoses, then . holy jesus no, i primary them, right after harbingers, hurricanes, and brutixes.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.07 08:33:00 - [149] Originally by: Elmicker ...Pretty much, yeah. You wouldn't fly a deimos headlong into a battleship with your MWD running, would you? That'd just be idiocy. ... This... In a deimos, one is one of the high dps ships in the gang. If a pilot is not doing dps to the primary target, he is nothing but a liability. By letting the FC think he has more dps at his disposal than he really has just puts the whole gang in jeopardy, since the primaries are not going down as fast as they should and in the end it ends up costing the whole fight. By hesitating to take part in the fight, one does not only lose his own ship, but also those of everyone in the gang. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.07 09:50:00 - [150] Edited by: welsh wizard on 07/10/2007 09:52:34 Originally by: San Rintu some good ideas Moa Change slot layout to 5/5/4 giving it one extra turret hardpoint and a full 25m3 drone bay to compensate for the damage lost from the 6th high slot. Fitting needed too. Eagle Pretty simple stuff, same slot layout, 1 extra turret hardpoint and fitting. Drone bay is debatable. Ferox Same slot layout, +2 turret hardpoints for a total of 7. Give extra grid but perhaps resrict ease of fitting 7 turrets to encourage gang boosting mods instead. In other words make them all proper gunboats with the HAC getting a bit of a damage bonus ahead of tech I damage. The majority of the missile ships and ewar ships need their mass reduced to Amarr/Gallente levels while maintaining the same slow base speeds (maybe even slightly slower so we warp faster/turn better but don't nano particuarly well). Missile velocity needs doubling and flight time halving on all missiles. edit: Oh & if the Eagle change goes ahead, give the zealot its extra turret too. [Balance] The Caldari problem.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.07 10:04:00 - [151] Edited by: Laboratus on 07/10/2007 10:04:07 Doubling missile velocity breaks the balance between missiles, defenders and smart bombs, so it is not too viable. Unless smart bomb rof is doubled and defenders get a 50% increase in launcher rof while cutting missile hp in half... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
pandymen Caldari Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.10.07 10:16:00 - [152] I forget who's sig this was, but it was quite accurate. Caldari \| PvP \| Solo <-- Pick two I enjoy flying my caldari ships in gangs. Unfortunately, they are quite lacking for solo pvp..but I will say that in a gang, caldari ships are at least as good as anything else. You don't need to necessarily be tackling...so the ability to fire immediately without having to close within blaster range can be great. That plus the multiple damps/tracking disruptors/w/e that can be fitted onto the many caldari midslots make them great for gangs. Keep in mind though, how many people really run around solo pvping? They are just asking to get their face pwned by some 8 man gang roaming in the system ahead of them. I rarely see ppl soloing nowadays except the odd speedtanked vaga/cane/insert minnie ship here. Otherwise, most people just wait up for gangs anyway.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.07 10:26:00 - [153] Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 07/10/2007 10:04:07 Doubling missile velocity breaks the balance between missiles, defenders and smart bombs, so it is not too viable. Unless smart bomb rof is doubled and defenders get a 50% increase in launcher rof while cutting missile hp in half... This relationship is already broken, and was when missiles were last molested (touched in a way that might be good, and might be wrong, all at once). Defender missiles, only work for NPCs. Smartbombs were always marginal, because of the area of effect in highsec problem, but now there's basically no chance you'll kill incoming fire with smartbombs unless you're doing something like running 8 staggered smartbomb or something. Defenders do need a fix IMO, I'm just not sure how or what. Something that autofires maybe, would do hte trick. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.07 10:28:00 - [154] Edited by: welsh wizard on 07/10/2007 10:28:45 Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 07/10/2007 10:04:07 Doubling missile velocity breaks the balance between missiles, defenders and smart bombs, so it is not too viable. Unless smart bomb rof is doubled and defenders get a 50% increase in launcher rof while cutting missile hp in half... Hmm this is a good point... The number of players who purposefully fit a smartbomb to counter missiles could probably be counted on one hand though. It's a case of weighing up the end result. Which is more important? The odd person who uses smartbombs/defenders for blowing up missiles or arguably the balance of an entire series of combat ships? Your defender changes seem pretty reasonable but the smarties are a little more complex given that any changes could break things in other areas badly. [Balance] The Caldari problem.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.07 10:33:00 - [155] If you are flying a BS and fit a large SB you can take an entire salve in one activation, unless the other guy strings the missiles. True, they are not too common, mainly because they get no attention whatsoever, when balancing is concerned. However it might be time to think about the counter modules as well in balance arguments, than just the systems themselves... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.07 10:42:00 - [156] Originally by: Laboratus If you are flying a BS and fit a large SB you can take an entire salve in one activation, unless the other guy strings the missiles. True, they are not too common, mainly because they get no attention whatsoever, when balancing is concerned. However it might be time to think about the counter modules as well in balance arguments, than just the systems themselves... In theory, yes. In practice, even torpedos (the slowest missiles) cover the blast area of a large SB in 2 seconds. That really doesn't give a lot of room for precision smartbombing. (Cruises cover the distance in under a second) -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Sc0rphion	Posted - 2007.10.07 12:28:00 - [157] Edited by: Sc0rphion on 07/10/2007 12:31:23 Edited by: Sc0rphion on 07/10/2007 12:30:28 Stop crying girls.... I can say this !!! oops i choose amarr Blah caldari Blah caldari !! Think in amarr Blah caldari blah caldari Again girls Think in amarr... Gank of Caldari = big big firworks,,, :) Gank of Mimmatar = We lock u ull die in less than 1 second Gank Of Gallente = We lock u and u will see the swarm of Litllte things biting ur fuc k ing asss Gank of Amarr = mmm Victoria Secret + Armani Look Ships ? (really only look) I choose amarr I skileed my amarr Im Amarrian I still fly my amarr... I have also 3 accounts in others ( BlackGuysAtpower(mimmatar) Ga y lente( ther are soooo cute) and Calmissipvedari ) AND U SEE ME CRYING BECOUSE I USE AMARR?????? please.. stopppp 6 threads of big sh i t... trust me big muthafuuu*kkaa ** P.D: I edited bcoz i wanted to show the bad words
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.07 13:22:00 - [158] Originally by: welsh wizard Eagle Pretty simple stuff, same slot layout, 1 extra turret hardpoint and fitting. Drone bay is debatable. This breaks the eagle.
ColetteLehtola Lone Starr Corporation	Posted - 2007.10.07 14:14:00 - [159] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: welsh wizard Eagle Pretty simple stuff, same slot layout, 1 extra turret hardpoint and fitting. Drone bay is debatable. This breaks the eagle. It indeed does not. ...Where's your god now?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.07 14:25:00 - [160] Originally by: ColetteLehtola Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: welsh wizard Eagle Pretty simple stuff, same slot layout, 1 extra turret hardpoint and fitting. Drone bay is debatable. This breaks the eagle. It indeed does not. It indeed does, it makes even a 5 turret Zealot and Muninn obsolete, with no reason to fly them over the eagle.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.07 15:56:00 - [161] Can we not turn this into "60 pages of why the eagle isn't broken" mk. 2?
ColetteLehtola Lone Starr Corporation	Posted - 2007.10.07 16:19:00 - [162] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: ColetteLehtola Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: welsh wizard Eagle Pretty simple stuff, same slot layout, 1 extra turret hardpoint and fitting. Drone bay is debatable. This breaks the eagle. It indeed does not. It indeed does, it makes even a 5 turret Zealot and Muninn obsolete, with no reason to fly them over the eagle. Then we have one caldari ship that will be prefered over the other races? Allthough I can't really see that happen if the eagle gets the fifth turret. This should be discussed in the eagle thread though. ...Where's your god now?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.07 17:06:00 - [163] Originally by: Elmicker Can we not turn this into "60 pages of why the eagle isn't broken" mk. 2? So long as we can have people saying the eagle needs more DPS in the long range.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.07 17:17:00 - [164] Edited by: Goumindong on 07/10/2007 17:17:31 Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 07/10/2007 10:28:45 Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 07/10/2007 10:04:07 Doubling missile velocity breaks the balance between missiles, defenders and smart bombs, so it is not too viable. Unless smart bomb rof is doubled and defenders get a 50% increase in launcher rof while cutting missile hp in half... Hmm this is a good point... The number of players who purposefully fit a smartbomb to counter missiles could probably be counted on one hand though. It's a case of weighing up the end result. Which is more important? The odd person who uses smartbombs/defenders for blowing up missiles or arguably the balance of an entire series of combat ships? Your defender changes seem pretty reasonable but the smarties are a little more complex given that any changes could break things in other areas badly. As well this could easily be fixed by messing with missile hit points. There is pretty much no reason for missiles to not have their speed increased so long as their travel time is similarly reduced. Missile DPS against fast targets is reduced by explosion velocity already. The only thing to really be concerned about is the velocity boosted ships becoming near uber snipers[mainly the cerberus], but that could be fixed easily enough by changing a few velocity bonuses into flight time increases. I.E. if missile velocities were doulbed accross the board, and flight times halved, you could change the 10% velocity bonuses on ships that would be able to project their DPS too fast[such as the cerb] to a flight time bonus and missiles would still end up being 33% faster on those ships. Alternatly, the bonus could be changed to 5% instead of 10%, for a 60% increase on those ships. This easily brings missiles up to turrets in terms of dealing DPS fast. That being said, even a 50% increase would be a huge boost in terms of projecting DPS. Which is, imho, all that needs to be done.[in conjunction with some fitting changes and slotting changes on the caracal]
Nebulae Pendragon	Posted - 2007.10.07 18:07:00 - [165] Originally by: Sc0rphion Edited by: Sc0rphion on 07/10/2007 12:31:23 Edited by: Sc0rphion on 07/10/2007 12:30:28 Stop crying girls.... I can say this !!! oops i choose amarr Blah caldari Blah caldari !! Think in amarr Blah caldari blah caldari Again girls Think in amarr... Gank of Caldari = big big firworks,,, :) Gank of Mimmatar = We lock u ull die in less than 1 second Gank Of Gallente = We lock u and u will see the swarm of Litllte things biting ur fuc k ing asss Gank of Amarr = mmm Victoria Secret + Armani Look Ships ? (really only look) I choose amarr I skileed my amarr Im Amarrian I still fly my amarr... I have also 3 accounts in others ( BlackGuysAtpower(mimmatar) Ga y lente( ther are soooo cute) and Calmissipvedari ) AND U SEE ME CRYING BECOUSE I USE AMARR?????? please.. stopppp 6 threads of big sh i t... trust me big muthafuuu*kkaa P.D: I edited bcoz i wanted to show the bad words O no you didn't...put the *** pipe down and slowly back away...

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