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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.07 12:44:00 - [121] Originally by: CCP Explorer Edited by: CCP Explorer on 07/10/2007 00:47:19 Originally by: Gungankllr Would you rather go to a megastore where the prices were set same or less and buy everything in one place? That's the main problem, is human nature. Most folks want to be able to go to one station, buy a cheap ship, modules, ammo and implants in one go To me the discussion about an NPC courier service focus around this point; you would never actually have to go to Jita but would still shop in the megastore that Jita is. It would be interesting to hear other ideas that would support Jita in this way but also spread the load, over time or space. Why NPC couriers? Are there missing game mechanics that if implemented would enable players to establish courier services? The two issues with a player-run courier service are: (1) Trust; the courier has to be sure that he will get paid, and the provider and the recipient have to be sure that the courier won't run off wit their goods (or lose them through carelessness). Scams from both sides are common and well-publicised, as is suicide hauler ganking. (2) Time; couriering has to offer an equivalent risk&effort:reward to other activities. Why would someone make 1M/hr for hauling when they can make 3M an hour mining Veldspar? Basically, getting players to do the couriering will mean paying them enough that... you might as well do it yourself. If it's worth the money for them to do it for you, it's worth the money for you to do it yourself. Also the actual hauling is only half of the story; the time & effort overhead in finding, vetting & accepting contracts, then optimising the delivery route is not trivial. If people are prepared to wait days for delivery, then it becomes easier. Most would not be (I wouldn't). So the obvious solution is NPC convoys. At the moment these are really just "scenery". Most people just remove them from their overview and never think about them. What if they were used to move player goods? Of course, they'd have to have a range limit (Intra-constellation? Certainly no more than intra-regional), and they'd take some time to get to their destination: let's postulate that they fly "on autopilot", so they have to slowboat 15Km to each gate, giving pirates a chance to attack them. NPCs don't really care about their ISK/hr, so they wouldn't mind only getting paid a few thousand ISK to move, say a Small Secure Container worth (up to 120m^3) of stuff about. If the fees were kept low, then people would use them for low-value items - this is essential, because if they were expensive, then it would only be worth using them for higher value items and there wouldn't be many convoys, so they'd always get attacked by players (no CONCORD response, BTW, but faction police definitely), and therefore no-one would use them. You'd need many convoys, with a low average cargo value, to make the system reasonably trustworthy. So consider a charge scale of, say: SSC: 500+250 ISK/jump MSC: 2500+1000 ISK/jump GSC: 10000+3000 ISK/jump Not sure about charges for larger volumes, eg: getting a battleship delivered. That should cost a LOT more. (And no you don't get the Secure Container for free! They belongs to the NPC corp) This would mean that a player could come to a system at the edge of a region, scan the regional market for the best bargains and order the modules he wants delivered. In an hour or at most two, the last convoy will have arrived. He's paid a few tens or hundreds of thousands of ISK, so the price differential isn't too much. The decreased risk of being suicide ganked is balanced against the risk of one of more of his containers items getting jacked, not to mention alert players noticing one of more convoys turning up at whatever station he's getting his stuff delivered to. And instead of making dozens of jumps and docking/undocking attempts in busy systems, adding to system lag, he can go do something else more interesting in a quieter system. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
SirMoric	Posted - 2007.10.07 14:16:00 - [122] Doesn't this belong in "features and ideas"? But they could simply make a limit on the amount of players allowed to be in Jita, so if you're going there and it's full, you can't get in. rgds
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.07 14:26:00 - [123] Originally by: SirMoric Doesn't this belong in "features and ideas"? But they could simply make a limit on the amount of players allowed to be in Jita, so if you're going there and it's full, you can't get in. rgds Well I was answering his question, but of course you are quite right. I'm not sure I like just limiting the number of players. I'd rather see Jita System Traffic Control Authority charge people for being in the system (even if docked). 100 ISK/min for every player over 500 in the system would encourage people to GTFO quick enough when local hits 700. 20k per minute isn't backbreaking if you're just going to jump in, dock up, load up your cargo and get the heck out ASAP. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.07 14:33:00 - [124] Originally by: SirMoric But they could simply make a limit on the amount of players allowed to be in Jita, so if you're going there and it's full, you can't get in. rgds Please, please, please no!!! That is the absolute worst thing you can do.
James Duar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.07 14:45:00 - [125] Hey guys I hear Jita is a problem related to being a system called Jita, could someone confirm or deny this for me? Also, could they confirm/deny that typical human behavior is to form centralized markets to enable the greatest volume of goods interchange thus benefiting sellers and buyers and in fact "Jita" has nothing to do with where the system is.
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.07 14:48:00 - [126] Edited by: Cailais on 07/10/2007 14:56:45 Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Cailais 'Congestion Charges' apply the 'tax' at the wrong point - you're taxing travel, not sales or purchase. This might reduce traffic on busier lanes, but static players (alts etc) would never be effected: Jita would fill up with (more) alts. Also people passing through would be charged - and you really want to encourage movement as it distributes the population (and hence the lag). C. Well, suppose the charge to enter Jita reaches 1m isk. It then becomes less worthwhile to go to Jita to buy less than several million isk worth of goods, and people setting up shop in nearby systems that aren't so congested will start to see more sales (at lower volumes per sale). If the charge continued to rise, more and more goods would no longer be worth buying at Jita. People who still wanted to buy there out of convenience would have an added incentive to wait until they needed to make a large number number of purchases. Gradually, all but the largest traders (by volume) would end up moving out. I wouldn't be surprised if Jita permanently retained its status as a major minerals/materials trading hub, as so much hauling is involved and many people speculate there without entering or leaving the system. If people are doing trade without causing congestion, it's only fair that they're not affect by congestion charges, of course. Granted, this proposal would be better as a preventative measure than a solution to the current problem. I suppose an escalating daily charge for people staying in the system might complement the congestion charge (how about 1m isk, doubling every day in which you log on unless you spend at least 24 hours outside the system before returning?), but I don't think such a charge should be applied except in systems where the congestion charge reaches a certain (extreme) level. A door tax (pay to enter), or a loitering tax (pay to stay) works; but only up to a point. The system employed must be dynamic - effecting all systems otherwise a 'new jita' will just pop up nearby (and then you need to tax that and so forth. If you apply a tax by gates (the more traffic through a gate, the higher the toll fee) you'll get high cost and low cost corridor routes - which in theory would work, but then your charging players just to move around and I don't think that will be popular. To save isk players will move less and markets would stagnate. One interesting side note about a dynamic tax system per head of population is its possible impact upon low sec, and 0.0. Low Sec is often slated (there's no 'reward' for going there). But as Low Sec is typically less populated in theory low sec players will be better off in localised areas as they will pay less in taxation for trades (assuming they don't aim for a wider market and sell in Empire). .0 Alliances could conceivably set their own tax rates - a Alliance that has a low tax rate at its Outposts would attract trade: if it can also police its native space it might make good revenue from such taxation. Assuming said alliance doesnt want to Tax its own membership (lets say you can adjust your Sov Sys tax rate by standing) and doesnt employ a NBSI policy it could make a lot of ISK. That's not to say dynamic taxing is aimed to force players out of highsec, but it might be a partial by product to encourage some to do so. Many will continue to trade in high sec of course - if only for convenience. Finally has anyone else noticed that CCP Explorer is working on a Sunday! C. - sig designer - eve mail

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2007.10.07 14:56:00 - [127] Originally by: Cailais Finally has anyone else noticed that CCP Explorer is working on a Sunday! It's a really good discussion, worth spending the weekend on monitoring Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.07 15:01:00 - [128] That is the perk of a director, isn't it, explorer? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
JADE DRAG0NESS Dark Scorpions Fate Weavers	Posted - 2007.10.07 15:07:00 - [129] Heres a solution. Change Jita to a 0.4 system. "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.07 15:10:00 - [130] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: SirMoric Doesn't this belong in "features and ideas"? But they could simply make a limit on the amount of players allowed to be in Jita, so if you're going there and it's full, you can't get in. rgds Well I was answering his question, but of course you are quite right. I'm not sure I like just limiting the number of players. I'd rather see Jita System Traffic Control Authority charge people for being in the system (even if docked). 100 ISK/min for every player over 500 in the system would encourage people to GTFO quick enough when local hits 700. 20k per minute isn't backbreaking if you're just going to jump in, dock up, load up your cargo and get the heck out ASAP. A system thats probably open to abuse, lets say your arbitory limit is 700. Above 700 players everyone in system get charged 100isk / min. Now GRIEFOCORP decide (for a laugh) to jump all 200 of its pilots into Jita. Seeing the meter running everyone tries to get out: massive lag ensues as the server is bombarded with actions. And so the situation gets worse. Not to mention the cries on the forums of 'the lags to bad - Jita limit must be 500/400/300' etc etc. C. - sig designer - eve mail

Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.07 15:12:00 - [131] Originally by: JADE DRAG0NESS Heres a solution. Change Jita to a 0.4 system. Wont work - everyone will shift one place to the left. Welcome to New Caldari: the new Jita. C. - sig designer - eve mail
vache THE IRIS	Posted - 2007.10.07 15:30:00 - [132] "CCP Explorer" should never be allowed post on the forums. Fact!
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.07 15:38:00 - [133] Just wondering if you're looking at this the wrong way round... Rather than taxing Jita, I'd suggest you have tax discounts in systems where CCP would prefer the trade to occur. Personally I think each region should have a standard tax rate which is lowered in the emptier regions to encourage traders to set up there. Have a quarterly CONCORD review or whatever to evaluate trade in the different regions and establish the tax rate for the next 3 months. you could even break this down another way - making ship sales tax lowest in the Forge for example, weapons sales taxes lowest in Domain, Shielding modules in Bleak Lands....(you get the picture). I'm sure this would sway some traders away from Jita for the potential tax breaks elsewhere, though in essence you will always need and have 1 'convenience' shopping spot in Eve. The thing you need is more competetive hubs in other regions to take the bottom line away from one system (Jita). - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Allan Robertson Gallente Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.10.07 15:40:00 - [134] Originally by: Necronomicon Phase 1 1. Remove all NPC markets from the system, player only transactions. 2. Remove all unrequired eye candy (Billboards etc) 3. Remove all agents no matter how un-used they are. This will increase the system somewhat. Phase 2 1. Place a limit on items for sale per station (this will force players to use different stations, and at full saturation, will be forced to market in nearby systems, thus a market constellation will form rather than a single system) 2. Make a new security rating of 1.1, concord's premiere security, outside of war, any vessel opening fire is instabbqd before they are even able to hit the target vessel - This will root out the alt corp suiciders who snag up the stations, and also reduce clutter at the gates. Again this idea like many others penalizes, forces and imposes on players into doing something somebody else who mostly would never set foot in Jita. You should try incentives and with more carrot and less stick approach, give people a good reason to leave Jita that would be worth their while, not everything in EVE must be a pain. --- Say YES! to Mining Cargo Holds on barges!
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.07 15:49:00 - [135] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Just wondering if you're looking at this the wrong way round... Rather than taxing Jita, I'd suggest you have tax discounts in systems where CCP would prefer the trade to occur. Personally I think each region should have a standard tax rate which is lowered in the emptier regions to encourage traders to set up there. Have a quarterly CONCORD review or whatever to evaluate trade in the different regions and establish the tax rate for the next 3 months. you could even break this down another way - making ship sales tax lowest in the Forge for example, weapons sales taxes lowest in Domain, Shielding modules in Bleak Lands....(you get the picture). I'm sure this would sway some traders away from Jita for the potential tax breaks elsewhere, though in essence you will always need and have 1 'convenience' shopping spot in Eve. The thing you need is more competetive hubs in other regions to take the bottom line away from one system (Jita). /me nods. If you scroll up a few pages my suggestion is along the same type of lines, but you tax sell and buys across all systems according to their current population base at that very point in time. You wouldn't need CONCORD reviews quarterly, as the tax burden would shift across all of EVE in real time: In effect this creates a similar condition to your suggestion ("tax discounts in systems where CCP would prefer the trade to occur") but it creates tax penalties in systems where we would prefer trade was reduced (i.e a very busy system). Penalties are easier to apply as otherwise where does the isk come from to subsidise a market and provide the tax discount? C. - sig designer - eve mail
Ryoji Tanakama Caldari Daikoku Fleet Shipyards	Posted - 2007.10.07 16:12:00 - [136] Originally by: Necronomicon Originally by: Mr McCargo I like phase 1, but phase 2's not gonna work. Well, in order to remain contructive, and being open to critisism, can you tell me why it will not work? CCP obviously do need to do something about Jita, there are hundreds of trade routes that can be camped by the suicide alt crews, and the limit on sales would make markets less centralized and more spread out over the available area. Having everything in 4-4 is just a laziness that has been allowed to blaze out of control. Perimeter, and Niyabainen both have a good station structure, there is no reason other than the aforementioned laziness for having everything in the one station. Jita is as it is because very early on in the life of EVE players realised that hving level 1 and 2 agent in one station on the doorstep of kisogo (the combat-caldari newbie system) was just stupidly convenient. A huge proportion of players were using that one station and so a market built up there. Now the agents are irrelevant, but the market is persistant. Too late to change this really, unless players in general make a concerted effort to move out. CPP can't do jack, except maybe have jita go supernova. ~Ryoji Tanakama Daikoku Fleet Shipyards
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.07 16:47:00 - [137] Originally by: James Duar Also, could they confirm/deny that typical human behavior is to form centralized markets to enable the greatest volume of goods interchange thus benefiting sellers and buyers and in fact "Jita" has nothing to do with where the system is. can confirm the above
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.07 17:21:00 - [138] Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 07/10/2007 17:25:04 Originally by: Cailais Suggestion and comments. I liked your idea and agree in principle, but the issues I have with tax rates adjusting in real time are: 1. It is probably pretty server/code intensive to monitor the system and adjust the tax rate continuously on lots and lots of orders. 2. I don't want to put an order up to see it de-vauled as other people arrive and put more orders up (increasing/changing the tax rate). It makes planning too difficult. 3 months is the maximum order duration which is why I recommended that time between tax changes. It'd also give serious traders some external market changes to react to to make the most of their goods. If the concern with lowered taxes in areas reduces the tax ISK sink then I'd suggest other ISK sinks be introduced...Perhaps a jump fee into busy Empire systems (as already discussed)? - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
gpfwestie	Posted - 2007.10.07 17:29:00 - [139] Congestion charges ?
ShadowAgony Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.07 17:34:00 - [140] Crazy and simple : 1.Transfer Jita chat to Constelation Chat 2. Make it so when you buy an item from 4-4 station , a window should pop up and ask you where you want your item delivered ( like anywhere in jita or at 1 jump from jita) Thats it

Venko Trenulo Wakizashi Renaissance	Posted - 2007.10.07 17:38:00 - [141] I like the idea of transaction taxes -- there's a precedent for this kind of thing with corporate offices: the more people want to have an office, the more it costs. It doesn't need to happen in real time to have an effect, and in fact I think it would be inappropriate, since you could start a freighter run based on the price you expect to pay, only to have it change as you're going through Isanamo. Instead, it could be done essentially for free (server-wise) by readjusting at d/t. I suggest perhaps doing it once a week based on the volume of the previous week. This would avoid the problem of adjusting for weekend use. I like this because it's not aimed just at Jita -- it's aimed at the concept of Jitas. If it's mild enough, it will leave (say) Rens and Oursulaert nearly untouched while slapping Jita down to a more manageable level, spreading its goodies out to New Caldari and Niyabainen and Perimeter and so on.
Necronomicon Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.07 17:49:00 - [142] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Cailais Finally has anyone else noticed that CCP Explorer is working on a Sunday! It's a really good discussion, worth spending the weekend on monitoring Dude, you need to get out more. Carlsberg dont make Eve Pilots, but if they did, i wouldnt be one of them.
zilllii Squirrel Power	Posted - 2007.10.07 18:00:00 - [143] Originally by: Necronomicon Phase 1 1. Remove all NPC markets from the system, player only transactions. 2. Remove all unrequired eye candy (Billboards etc) 3. Remove all agents no matter how un-used they are. This will increase the system somewhat. Phase 2 1. Place a limit on items for sale per station (this will force players to use different stations, and at full saturation, will be forced to market in nearby systems, thus a market constellation will form rather than a single system) 2. Make a new security rating of 1.1, concord's premiere security, outside of war, any vessel opening fire is instabbqd before they are even able to hit the target vessel - This will root out the alt corp suiciders who snag up the stations, and also reduce clutter at the gates. pretty old info tbh, check the suggestions forums and you will see that you were not the first to suggest things like this about jita. -------------------------------------------------- Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Love the new need for speed initiative. Pilots involved in a fleet battle can post on the forum and get a reply about wha
Kessiaan	Posted - 2007.10.07 18:10:00 - [144] How about instead of a dynamic tax when things are purchased, use a variable broker fee. Basically it would be 1% (before skills) like it is now, up to a certain point, then after that as the market becomes busier (based on the current volume of items up for sale) it becomes more and more expensive for people to put up sell orders. This would naturally encourage sellers to move out to adjacent systems without forcing sellers to try and predict the tax rate at some arbitrary point in the future. ----- My in Eve Profile
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.07 18:22:00 - [145] Edited by: Cailais on 07/10/2007 18:26:16 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 07/10/2007 17:25:04 Originally by: Cailais Suggestion and comments. I liked your idea and agree in principle, but the issues I have with tax rates adjusting in real time are: 1. It is probably pretty server/code intensive to monitor the system and adjust the tax rate continuously on lots and lots of orders. 2. I don't want to put an order up to see it de-vauled as other people arrive and put more orders up (increasing/changing the tax rate). It makes planning too difficult. 3 months is the maximum order duration which is why I recommended that time between tax changes. It'd also give serious traders some external market changes to react to to make the most of their goods. If the concern with lowered taxes in areas reduces the tax ISK sink then I'd suggest other ISK sinks be introduced...Perhaps a jump fee into busy Empire systems (as already discussed)? 1. The server doesnt have to do all that much - at the point at which you open a buy or sell order it takes the population at that moment (or say a average across a period of time - say 30mins) e.g your pc asks whats the tax rate 'here' and 'now' and the server replies -'x' and applies tha to your bid in the same packet. 2. Your sell or buy doesnt really devalue - its calculated at the point you either A) purchase, or B) Sell. e.g You want to sell a 'widget module' for 100 ISK. The system is empty (0% tax) you place the sell order at 100 ISK and pay 0 tax. 2 hours later there are 300 players in the system - youre widget is still on sale for 100 ISK. Any buyer must pay 130 ISK (100 to you, 30 in tax) however if he wishes to so while its so busy. If he comes back later when its quieter the 'buy' tax will drop. Assuming you've placed your sell order over a period of time at some stage the 'buy' tax will be attractive (as the system isnt busy), and your module will sell and you'll get 100 ISK. Traders will need to follow migration patterns across EVE, and id quieter systems for low tax sell and buy orders using this process. Id anticipate traders to look at quick profit opportunities by selling and buying in low tax systems before the competition does. Clearly skills for remote trading will be now very very useful marking the trader out from the common punter. C. - sig designer - eve mail
Kylegar Caldari Shadow Of The Light R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.07 19:01:00 - [146] To all the people suggesting "Change it to 0.X sec status" or to do something Specificly to the system Jita: Your not helping. You do something to the system, and people will move, and a new Jita will form. End of story. -- Originally by: CCP Ginger No sex changes.
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.07 19:53:00 - [147] CCP Explorer, your name is Erlendur? You have a system named after you but I guess you know that
Ather Ialeas Amarr Exercitus Solus	Posted - 2007.10.07 20:15:00 - [148] I think one of the major factors for Jita being a trade hub is the fact that in EVE everyone has to travel a lot. There's really no reason to stay in a region of your choice. Good example of this is that If you want to get the best rewards from Caldari Navy agents, you'll be in The Citadel (Motsu/Saila/Aramachi) in no time. The problem is that EVE has a vast space with lots of empty and downright useless content in it which doesn't encourage one to stay where they are. Even in 0.0 people usually travel at least 1-5 jumps from nearest outpost system to their favorite ratting system because the spawns are better there. Other similar resources for systems are of course asteroid belts, manufacturing capabilities, relative security and access. What I think would work as a solution would be equalizing the available resources in Jita (removing both skillbook selling NPC:s and asteroid belts were imo both good changes) and surrounding REGIONS. If most of the good stuff comes from The Forge and The Citadel (at least from mission runner's perspective) then make them a reason to move to...well, somewhere else and actually stay there. The devblog about Interbus was imo good, lets just see how long it'll take to come alive. -
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.07 20:23:00 - [149] Im not a fan of an interbus / npc fedex service. It feels really contrived, and panders to the naturally lazy nature in most of us. If you have an interbus / fedex service you may aswell get rid of the market as it is, and make everything 'magicaly' available everywhere. Also a npc service completely ruins the concept of hauler pilots, or the purpose of going, well anywhere really. Travel would become a rarity and Eve would feel a lot less 'alive' and far more stagnant and dull. With this would follow 'Jita Like' systems where all the best loot / mins are - afterall why even bother to go anywhere else? No, interbus isnt the solution. C. - sig designer - eve mail
Slate Fistcrunch	Posted - 2007.10.07 20:49:00 - [150] 1. Make bypasses around Jita. There are still routes that force you into Jita even if you don't want to go through Jita. 2. Keep missions from sending people to Jita. Disable PVP combat, ship collisions, drone deployment, exploration sites, etc. in Jita (strip the system down to the bare essentials). 3. Allow people to buy things from Jita without being in Jita. Those systems right next to Jita you mentioned, link a station in each system to Jita 4-4 so that shopping in a 4-4 mirror is the same as shopping in Jita 4-4. This method or that EVE-wide interbus idea you've been teasing us with forever.



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