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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)
Zantazar Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.08 10:36:00 - [181] Jita, as a vibrant trade hub, will always exist in some form. I think that by introducing a form of "popularity tax", the concentration of players could be more evenly distributed. My Idea (probably been proposed before). As more sell orders are created, a tax gradient would be applied (to the seller) at the moments of making the order. This tax would have no limit, so where there is a massive amount of orders, the tax rate would be so high, that a seller would move on. The tax rates could be calculated on an hourly basis, and this rate would be viewed by any potential seller prior to travelling to that station. With any luck, this could create a trade region instead. Just my thoughts :) I would sell my soul, my body, and my entire family for a Navy Raven. (Just kidding .... my soul is not for sale)
Esmenet	Posted - 2007.10.08 10:47:00 - [182] Originally by: Malachon Draco Things CCP could do: - Remove all agents from Jita and directly surrounding systems - Create jumpgate bypasses around Jita that mkae travel easier/faster to reduce transit traffic that only adds to the load. - Rearrange stuff in Jita, make sure that the 4-4 Station exit directly FACES all the gates out, so people leaving have an easier time to get out. - Remove all unneeded fluf from Jita. This, as has been said many times before, is just a bandaid fix that will let you squeeze in a few more players before you end up with the exact same problem. Any real solution to the lag will encourage/force players to spread out instead of grouping together in one hub. That will only hurt the players that feel they have to go to jita because it has a lot of people trading. So if you feel that jita is the only solution for you, you have to live with the lag or wait for ccp to nerf tradehubs/trade in general.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.10.08 11:08:00 - [183] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Malachon Draco Things CCP could do: - Remove all agents from Jita and directly surrounding systems - Create jumpgate bypasses around Jita that mkae travel easier/faster to reduce transit traffic that only adds to the load. - Rearrange stuff in Jita, make sure that the 4-4 Station exit directly FACES all the gates out, so people leaving have an easier time to get out. - Remove all unneeded fluf from Jita. This, as has been said many times before, is just a bandaid fix that will let you squeeze in a few more players before you end up with the exact same problem. Any real solution to the lag will encourage/force players to spread out instead of grouping together in one hub. That will only hurt the players that feel they have to go to jita because it has a lot of people trading. So if you feel that jita is the only solution for you, you have to live with the lag or wait for ccp to nerf tradehubs/trade in general. Incorrect. Do you really think people go to Jita because they like lag? There are distinct wealth benefits to the agglomeration effect we see in Jita, whether they be lower prices, quicker sale, more choice in goods (reducing overall traveltime/needs). If you spread out the hub over multiple places, you are reducing those benefits. Once the cons start to outweigh the pros, Jita will stop growing, albeit there are negative external effects which are not being taken into account, similar to the negative external effects of people in everyday morning traffic jams. But overall, it would be better to accomodate the hub effect rather than fight it, in terms of wealth maximalisation. The most radical possibility would be to change Jita from a whole system and turn it into a big station, where every time someone jumps into Jita from a surrounding system, they don't load the system environment, but the station environment instead. I'd assume that 1000 people in a station would not nearly cause as much lag as a similar number in space. ------------------------------------------------ New idea for sovereignty: Sovereignty revisited
Kayna Eelai	Posted - 2007.10.08 11:15:00 - [184] Originally by: Malachon Draco - Remove all unneeded fluf from Jita. so, basicly what you are saying is, that everytime a big par t of the playerbase want to use one system as tradehubs, all the ones who wanted to use it for something else (aka: agents) should just get a kick in the balls, right? WRONG! another real life comparison: that nice market i mentioned before: so basicly, you life in a town and close to a very popular market. the market grows, so does the ammount of thieves and thugs... instead of sorting it out i should just ** my house and move out? why should i move out and not all those traders and thugs? my opinion: leave jita exactly as it is (tho i liked the little modification of anchoring so the exit of 4-4 faces some popular stargate) BUT change the market system to avoid massive overflows. what do i mean? easy: roleplaying base, even space stations don't have an infinite amount of storage place... thus they should only accept a limited ammount of SELL ORDERS per item. once that limit is reached a message should pop up telling us "sorry, this station does not admit more sales of this item" and traders will be forced to spread out through other stations in the system or nearby systems. actually, i would vote for a pretty low limit (maybe based on m3 so you can sell few battleships, but loads of ammo) so all the trading spreads much more, forcing much more traveling. this sounds like the best idea to me, specially if we could add the NPC transportations (which i really hope will have insane high prices or ppl. would never ever leave their own home base). oh and i hope the NPC transports (if they get implemented somedays) dont go through lowsec or systems that force a jump through lowsec. whining about jita being overpopulated is like when wow players whined that certain servers where overcrowded (while half of the other servers where ghost tows)... it's just and plain STUPID, specially when it comes to the point where this clueless whiners DEMAND hardware upgrades, just because they're ***** too lazy to move to another system. lmao.
Esmenet	Posted - 2007.10.08 11:24:00 - [185] Originally by: Malachon Draco Incorrect. Do you really think people go to Jita because they like lag? I'm sorry if i was not clear but i did not say this at all. Quote: There are distinct wealth benefits to the agglomeration effect we see in Jita, whether they be lower prices, quicker sale, more choice in goods (reducing overall traveltime/needs). If you spread out the hub over multiple places, you are reducing those benefits. Once the cons start to outweigh the pros, Jita will stop growing, albeit there are negative external effects which are not being taken into account, similar to the negative external effects of people in everyday morning traffic jams. Yes i know. The solutions in this thread is attempting to set barriers on how many people can effectively trade in one place, encouraging people to spread out. And this will make the market hubs a bit worse for the traders. So whining about jita lag is counterproductive for traders as they will "nerf" themselves. Quote: But overall, it would be better to accomodate the hub effect rather than fight it, in terms of wealth maximalisation. The most radical possibility would be to change Jita from a whole system and turn it into a big station, where every time someone jumps into Jita from a surrounding system, they don't load the system environment, but the station environment instead. I'd assume that 1000 people in a station would not nearly cause as much lag as a similar number in space. I doubt ccp will try silly solutions like this as it is not in the spirit of the game, and its just yet another bandaidfix. You cant fight the forming of tradehubs by throwing more hardware at one system every few weeks, you have to set barriers to how many can effectively trade there. At the moment that barrier is lag, encouraging you to switch to some other tradehub (yes there are others). Maybe in the future that barrier will be a dynamic salestax depending on how many people are in the system or by limiting sellorders etc. Or maybe they will just nerf haulers by introducing npc courier systems. Or a combination of many such limitations. Depending on how it works it may be that the new system coming sometime in 2008 that will dynamically allocate server resources based on the number of people in system will solve this problem without nerfing anyone. But then you just have to live with a laggy jita for a while or start trading at one of the other tradehubs.
Kayna Eelai	Posted - 2007.10.08 11:28:00 - [186] Originally by: Esmenet Depending on how it works it may be that the new system coming sometime in 2008 that will dynamically allocate server resources based on the number of people in system will solve this problem without nerfing anyone. But then you just have to live with a laggy jita for a while or start trading at one of the other tradehubs. are you telling me that a game that went on release nearly 4 years ago is NOT using this allready? a dinamic cluster system is a MUST in the mmo industry, and most other MMO are using something like that for ages allready.
Esmenet	Posted - 2007.10.08 12:02:00 - [187] Originally by: Kayna Eelai are you telling me that a game that went on release nearly 4 years ago is NOT using this allready? a dinamic cluster system is a MUST in the mmo industry, and most other MMO are using something like that for ages allready. Mentioned here and some other dev blogs http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=493
Kayna Eelai	Posted - 2007.10.08 15:43:00 - [188] Originally by: Esmenet Mentioned here and some other dev blogs http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=493 omg they are not yet using such technology? it's nice they mention the will of doing it, but i have to say this, sorry: CCP, WELCOME TO 1999
Vitaki Rens 911	Posted - 2007.10.08 17:47:00 - [189] Edited by: Vitaki on 08/10/2007 17:54:00 Originally by: CCP Explorer What is this fascination with Jita? Why only Jita? What's wrong with New Caldari, Maurasi, Perimeter, Niyabainen and Ikuchi? All in The Forge and one jump from Jita. The solution is obvious, trade somewhere else. It may not be as convenient and may be slightly more expensive but at least you avoid the pain of Jita. Perhaps that's the real issue, perhaps Jita still hasn't reached the pain threshold? The answer could then be to tax Jita? Make it more painful and less attractive. If you have accumulated say 5 billion isk in a lesser hub like ourslart (not rens that place sucks only one factory man that place is impossible for new producers). Anyway if you have been producing for some time in a lesser hub system and want to increase the money you make you have no choice but to go somewhere where the volume of trade is higher. So lets look at the past when there was no market hubs. All these producers are making lots of money in lesser hubs but they eventually start overproducing for their local market. So they decide to look around and expand into new markets and notice that Yulai have 5x the traffic that they currently do. Obviously then at that point they realize that even though they make less profit per item there, they sell a much higher volume and make waaaaayyyyy more money then at their old location. Sure after they move the local market picks up a little bit and some smaller producers then move in to replace them but you just can't expect to make big money in any of the other market hubs. Honestly I think rens would be a really good hub if there was a factory in station 2, and maybe some more stations and factories there in general. Right now you can only really produce there if you have a freighter, and that sucks. It certainly stops me from manufacturing there, since I'd have to fly my freighter there from Jita. Another problem is all the specialized production people like me that make t2 mods by the bucket full. How would I be able to produce anything at all if the t2 reactions were being sold all over the place? The only way I can maintain a production cycle that is worth spending my time on is if I can buy all the reactions, datacores, etc at a central location. Otherwise it would probably be more profitable to spend my capitol and playtime on t1 ship production. The real solution is not to get the producers to move, the producers go wherever there is profit. The real solution is that buying and fitting ships sucks, so you go to jita to do it because you are going to get the lowest prices and you won't have to undock and fly all over to buy all your stuff. I very frequently have to go to Jita even from rens to find the rarer mods or t2 ship hulls just because there is not enough demand in rens to incentivise the producers and triage guys to seed the market.
Vitaki Rens 911	Posted - 2007.10.08 18:09:00 - [190] One last point. What happens in a lesser trade hub when you run max full time production on an ultra popular tier 2 battle cruiser like the myrmidon? Answer 1: I easily sell them all and make lots of money and everyone thanks me for the lowered prices in the system. Answer 2: All the existing producers freak out and all begin underbidding each other until the price tanks down under cost. This is a scenario that happened to me. I started out not being able to run full production and I was able to easily sell off my inventory. As my available capital increased I was able to ramp up production until eventually I crashed the local market. At that point I could either say, oh well and accept the lower profit margin, or I could move somewhere with higher demand and make even more money, guess what anyone with half a brain would do? Now we really need to know why number 2 is what happens. It happens because there are not even enough people in that region to buy up my manufacturing output. This is because the adjacent 0.0 space near Ourslart is underpopulated because it sucks, and also because the Gallente agents pretty much suck too. So you end up with a region that stays depressed. You want people to spread out the hubs? Well why don't you make other areas of space equal to the Forge? Great adjoining 0.0 space, and excellent agents. Minmatar space almost has this, except it's hub is gimped and the agents are not good enough. Also make other races have stat distribution equal to Caldari, in fact completely change the way points are assigned so anyone can more easily create specalized characters.
Vitaki Rens 911	Posted - 2007.10.08 18:10:00 - [191] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: alt muppet tax the sellorders extremely hard so the sellorders a jump or 3 away is up to 30-50% more profitable=congestion fixed Get out of the Forge and discover the many other regional markets that do exist out there, and the problem will be solved. Get out of the forge and discover that the other markets can't support full time bpo production of most ships and modules and realize that you were making 10x or 20x the profit back at Jita.
Shidhe Minmatar The Babylon5 Consortuim Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.08 20:05:00 - [192] Eve is not into making things convenient, or wealth maximisation. Eve is supposed to be an immersing game, and most of all, to be fun. It involves some form of suspension of disbelief which allows us to believe that its alternative world is worth spending time on. The idea of having an artificial shop in the form of a protected special case system is destructive of this. Give Jita no special status at all - and let the players deal with the problem. In fact, put the belts back, let Jita play on a really even playing field. Then have an increased tax rate for transactions as everyone involved in the market there demands Christmas bonuses - as happens everywhere where there is more money than sense.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.08 22:09:00 - [193] Originally by: Vitaki Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: alt muppet tax the sellorders extremely hard so the sellorders a jump or 3 away is up to 30-50% more profitable=congestion fixed Get out of the Forge and discover the many other regional markets that do exist out there, and the problem will be solved. Get out of the forge and discover that the other markets can't support full time bpo production of most ships and modules and realize that you were making 10x or 20x the profit back at Jita. Read my other posts and you will see that I was refering to customers, not producers. I know that as a producer, you kind of have to be in Jita to a large extent. I know, because I do it myself with this indutrial alt here. And I have recently tried to move to a different market and then returned because I make so much more in Jita.
XxGridlockxX	Posted - 2007.10.09 12:10:00 - [194] make jita 0.0 - soon watch how fast it clears out.
gooer	Posted - 2007.10.09 12:16:00 - [195] Originally by: Zosana If anything there should be an "avoid Jita" option on the autopilot. /signed
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.09 12:38:00 - [196] Originally by: Taikun The same useless drivel Originally by: CCP Explorer I was not blaming anybody, merely pointing out that there are no game mechanism that force players to go to Jita, it's a choice. In the market forums we've discovered that the best way to respond to Taikun is to use this script-tool. I can go entire weeks without realizing that Taikun's even alive until someone accidentally takes him for serious and quotes him. But in all seriousness, Taikun's linked CCP and Al-Qaeda in the past so his objectivity (and mental state) is very much in question... don't take him seriously unless you have him targeted. PS: This tool is only available for Firefox users. It's A GIRL!!!!!
HenkieBoy	Posted - 2007.10.09 13:13:00 - [197] Edited by: HenkieBoy on 09/10/2007 13:14:32 My solution: Create cargo hangers in systems where no stations are. These cargo hangers can be opened and are in direct link to a station like in Jita. This way you can manage your business in Jita in another system. You can't dock at these cargo hangers though and use other services other then getting access to your "garbage " in stations like in Jita. Edit: Nice idea for a new skill also, you need to learn it in order to use these 'cargo hangers'.
Daerkannon Shimmerscale Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2007.10.10 15:27:00 - [198] Being a mover of bulk goods myself I am often 'forced' to go to Jita to trade. There simply isn't anywhere else to sell some of my items in any real volume. That isn't the real problem for me, nor is it even the 700 people in local. (Why are you all there? Any nub with no trade skills can buy from anywhere in the region and then swoop in, grab your stuff and get out...) I'm typically coming into the Forge from the Domain/Tash-Murkon regions and the route that I need to take means that I'm only two jumps from Jita by the time I'm in the Forge and can access the market remotely. Give me a skill that lets me access the market from an adjacent region and I will be one happy camper and much further away from Jita. I also like the idea of an NPC controlled hyper transport route between the major markets for moving goods (not people). I could do all my shopping/selling in Amarr then and still access the volume of goods I need then. --- Honest officer, the dwarf was on fire when I got here! Can't find a mechanical engineering agent? Need a non-Caldari Navy agent? http://www.eve-agents.com/ for all your agent needs!
Cerwyn Taraman Minmatar Phoenix Tech Industries Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2007.10.10 16:00:00 - [199] I don't think a social solution will fix this problem as CCP Explorer has suggested. The problem with any social solution is if it is specific to jita or any other market hub the hub will just shift to somewhere else. You can't stop people from forming trade hubs - it is why we have cities in real-life and why big cities have more services to offer, more restaurants, malls and shops. It happens in real-life too. The ONLY fix I know of is to use the real-life solution. FedEx and UPS. Anything bought in the Forge region from any market is automagically shipped to the station you are currently in such that instead of one solar system you only have to figure out the hardware for the entire region. My understanding of your tech is that you cannot currently shard one solar system onto multiple nodes, but you can put one node per solar system in a region if needed. Do it this way and make the Forge the official market trading hub region and have trading behave differently in that one region. Or, as others have suggested in the past, make it where Jita itself is not an actual solar system but merely a market window. When you hook up to remote trading gates that link into Jita from all over the place, a market window pulls up with Jita's listings and you can buy / sell whatever you need and it is all put onto that centralized market. Either solution should be scalable enough such that you could have the entirety of the EVE populace in the area and it wouldn't crash the cluster.. The is the hardware/software solution that you need to implement, not try to force people from doing what is like REAL-LIFE and will ALWAYS happen no matter what changes you make. The market will go to where the market is best, you can't stop that train - it already left the station. --------- You have now entered the sig zone! Want to know what Apoapsis means? Visit our recruitment post here.
Kel'dar Drax	Posted - 2007.10.10 16:06:00 - [200] The solution is simple and no doubt has been proposed elsewhere in this thread: Namely - Introduce the Interbus delivery system that is in the dev pipeline...thereby obviating the need to physically go to Jita (or anywhere else in Region) to collect your newly purchased item. The only reason players would then have for going to Jita would be to place their goods on the market...but if the Interbus is introduced (with reasonable shipping charges) you could just as easily place goods for sale at any station on the main trade pipes through Forge? The Forge (or any other regional market) would then be truly competitive. The logical result of this would be cross region trades being placed in stations close to empire border systems to reduce hauling times, while in-region sell/buy orders could be placed where it was most convenient to the seller/buyer? Or am I missing something?
Dav Varan	Posted - 2007.10.11 12:03:00 - [201] Edited by: Dav Varan on 11/10/2007 12:04:05 The fix for Jita is simply. VARIABLE TAX RATE. The more trades done at a station the higher its tax rate becomes just as is done with manufacturing jobs. Watch all the traders flood out of J.4.4 as the tax rate hits 10%? 5%? even better would be the ability to remote accept contracts in other regions. Then the contract faction sellers have no need to go to jita market to sell there wares either.
Ludovigo	Posted - 2007.10.11 12:12:00 - [202] Jita Is bad, yeah... But it's not like you go around doing missions there and losing ships due to lag... You only go there to sell, and buy... It's laggy and takes time, yes, you might even get disconnected, what a bummer... But It's a place for a trader who as patience, if you don't have the patience, don't go there. Stop crying over it ppl. :)
Imhothar Xarodit Minmatar Wolverine Solutions Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.11 12:48:00 - [203] I don't know if this was already suggested, as reading through 7 pages in one go is rather unattractive, but my idea about this I had some time ago, was to make Jita, Amarr, Rens and... (erm whats the Gallente capital? I have no idea...) into one, seperated region called something like "The Capitals" (I bet there are better choices). These 4 systems would thus have one connected market as they are their own region, accessible from the 4 factions' capital systems (well, Jita isn't the Caldari capital afaik but stil...). I see two main benefits in that: People don't need to travel 40 jumps to get to the market hub, as tehy can choose one of the 4 closest Capital systems to shop at. It could reduce the number of people entering the Jita system. I guess there would be more people using the Capital region for trading now, but the number of people in every system could be much lower than it is in Jita right now, as the market is more spread. The main problem I see in it the explanation of how the goods can instantly travel 20 jumps, as making it delayed would crush the benefit of unneeded travel.
Kas Riel	Posted - 2007.10.11 13:08:00 - [204] Edited by: Kas Riel on 11/10/2007 13:09:31 why would it have to be instant? you buy something from a market in another region of the country you expect a wait don't you? just have NPC couriers carry it that distance same as a normal player would. oh and heres a twist that some will like. make them just basic convoys, carrying actual orders not standard loot things real people have bought, the buyers can have the choice to pay for an armed escort or not, (that would need some thinking on) no risk no reward and all that, so the pirates can still get their highsec jollies but the carebears can pay the little extra to 'protect' their goodies
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.11 13:10:00 - [205] Just add a 20% tax to all hi-sec. - Recruitment open again-
Kas Riel	Posted - 2007.10.11 13:16:00 - [206] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Just add a 20% tax to all hi-sec. not really well thought through, why should somebody in highsec be penalised just for being in highsec? also just thinking short term you'd want market prices on minerals, ships, mods and ammo to shoot up by 20% because of the tax increase? thats what would happen you know
Hannobaal Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.10.11 13:39:00 - [207] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Just add a 20% tax to all hi-sec. Not so drastic, but maybe make the sales tax based on system security in general. In 0.0, no sales tax. In 0.1 a very small sales tax and so on, all the way up to 1.0 having the highest (maybe 4-5%).
Xen Gin The Dragoons	Posted - 2007.10.11 13:48:00 - [208] I like that dynamic taxing. I think thats the only way forward. Whether its dependant on population or sales is do be determined.
Ekscalybur Caldari Templar Services Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.11 14:08:00 - [209] Originally by: CCP Explorer Edited by: CCP Explorer on 07/10/2007 00:47:19 Originally by: Gungankllr Would you rather go to a megastore where the prices were set same or less and buy everything in one place? That's the main problem, is human nature. Most folks want to be able to go to one station, buy a cheap ship, modules, ammo and implants in one go To me the discussion about an NPC courier service focus around this point; you would never actually have to go to Jita but would still shop in the megastore that Jita is. It would be interesting to hear other ideas that would support Jita in this way but also spread the load, over time or space. Why NPC couriers? Are there missing game mechanics that if implemented would enable players to establish courier services? I would love to be able to be a "trucker" in Eve. My character has recently trained for transports because I needed one from time to time. But I would love it if I could use this marginally used at best ship as a money earner. I have no real desire to do purchasing and reselling. In RL, people buy stuff all the time and have it shipped to them, in fact my job as an electrical supply salesman has me shipping things cross country all day long every day. I just don't think it can be made to work in Eve. There is too much desire for instant gratification. I do not think many players in Eve would settle for buying something,and then waiting several hours, or even a day for their modules/ships/dancers. Maybe if the NPC courier service was added, but put a time on it that could easily be beaten by a player run shipping service. I think the producers would need to be boosted by CCP for this to happen though. Players should have some sort of mechanism of setting up accounts with production corps, place purchase orders, and then those producers contracting out the delivery part of those orders. For instance, Minmatar Joe trades the hassle of buying his modules and ammo with having it delivered to him. He contacts a production corp, sets up an account that he pays money into to pay for whatever he desires. When he places an order, the production corp fills this order and then contacts someone like myself to deliver it to him. Minmatar Joe doesn't get that stuff he wants exactly when he wants them, but then again, he doesn't have to stop what he's doing and go get them and has a somewhat dependable schedule on when he'll see the stuff he buys. I really think CCP should implement this kind of interaction into the UI. Instead of buying whatever is cheapest/closest off the market, have players set up accounts/relationships with the corporation. You wouldn't have to eliminate the market, and to make this kind of commerce more appealing, eliminate the broker fees and maybe even the sales tax. Players should also have a mechanism with which they have accounts holding their ISK to purchase things with that someone couldn't just run off with if they wanted to. I guess another mechanism needed would be a way for players/corporations to access a list of other players/corporations that sell items to contact about setting up accounts and place orders from anywhere in Eve. This way, players don't have to go to Jita. Several can place their orders, and 1 hauler can pick up those orders and deliver them.
Kas Riel	Posted - 2007.10.11 14:28:00 - [210] the system could use tweaking but there are courier contracts out there that players can do themselves, so you could infact be a space trucker ;)

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