Originally by: IKEELYOU

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Alternative solution: don't go to Jita.

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Originally by: Necronomicon

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Originally by: IKEELYOU

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Alternative solution: don't go to Jita.

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Yes alt, lets all not go to Jita, not buy anything, and never undock just like you ;)

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Originally by: Mr McCargo

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I like phase 1, but phase 2's not gonna work.

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Originally by: SoftRevolution

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What if you didn't actually have to go to Jita to buy / sell?

Like what if you could have items delivered to and from Jita to neighbouring systems automagically?

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Originally by: Arric Rohr

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Here is my Jita fix idea:

Put a border of low sec systems between each empire. Make sure there are several alternate routes through to make lag less and camping more difficult, but not impossible.

If it isn't possible to afk autopilot from Stacmon to Jita, other hub markets will form.

There is even a storyline boost to the factional warfare thing that is coming sometime.

Easy fix that doesn't require lots of special changes.

AR

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Originally by: Zosana

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Originally by: Necronomicon

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Originally by: IKEELYOU

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Alternative solution: don't go to Jita.

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Yes alt, lets all not go to Jita, not buy anything, and never undock just like you ;)

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Yup I'm an alt, great argument!

No, there are other commercial centers besides Jita and nothing forcing you to go there. If anything there should be an "avoid Jita" option on the autopilot.

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Originally by: Xilimyth Derlin

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The solution: Get industrialists like-minded to myself to actually sell their goods outside of Jita AT JITA prices!

That's the best solution.

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Quote:

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2. Make a new security rating of 1.1, concord's premiere security, outside of war, any vessel opening fire is instabbqd before they are even able to hit the target vessel - This will root out the alt corp suiciders who snag up the stations, and also reduce clutter at the gates.

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Originally by: Neena Valdi

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Originally by: Arric Rohr

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Here is my Jita fix idea:

Put a border of low sec systems between each empire. Make sure there are several alternate routes through to make lag less and camping more difficult, but not impossible.

If it isn't possible to afk autopilot from Stacmon to Jita, other hub markets will form.

There is even a storyline boost to the factional warfare thing that is coming sometime.

Easy fix that doesn't require lots of special changes.

AR

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It won't fix anything. Another Jita will formup in another suitable system. Thats it.

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Originally by: Akita T

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No, it's a trap ! I can tell from some of the modules and from seeing quite a few traps in my time...

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Originally by: Tortun Nahme

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REAL solution to the Jita problem

ban everyone who makes a Jita thread!

jita population will drop like crazeh!

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Originally by: F90OEX

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Bottom line CCP are going to have to make drastic changes to Jita

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Originally by: Necronomicon

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CCP obviously do need to do something about Jita (...) Having everything in 4-4 is just a laziness that has been allowed to blaze out of control. Perimeter, and Niyabainen both have a good station structure, there is no reason other than the aforementioned laziness for having everything in the one station.

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Originally by: Oveur

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To the nerfmobile!

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Quote:

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Why do we need to fix Jita? We didn't create Jita...

Well, OK, existentially speaking we created Jita as in "Jita the solarsystem" but we didn't create Jita as in "Jita the overcrowded marketplace".

/puts on fire protection suit

You did.

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Stuff

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Originally by: Foomanshoe

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We used to all trade in Yulai if you'll remember, but apparently you werent too high and mighty to fix that when this problem happened there and completely rework the map.

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Why do we need to fix Jita? We didn't create Jita...

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Originally by: Solvalou PE

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Why do we need to fix Jita? We didn't create Jita...

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did you not listen ? i think jita should be left as is , if you dont like then dont go there but then you people would find something else to whine about !

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Quote:

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The solution is obvious, trade somewhere else. It may not be as convenient and may be slightly more expensive but at least you avoid the pain of Jita. Perhaps that's the real issue, perhaps Jita still hasn't reached the pain threshold? The answer could then be to tax Jita? Make it more painful and less attractive.

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Originally by: Velsharoon

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The fact you cant be arsed to fix it after 2 years or whatever speaks volumes.

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Originally by: Nice Guy

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Originally by: Foomanshoe

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We used to all trade in Yulai if you'll remember, but apparently you werent too high and mighty to fix that when this problem happened there and completely rework the map.

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Guess what, they learned from their mistake and figured they can't stop this kind of behavior with changing the map
So, they decided to give it a go, and see where it ended. Well Jita is the end of the story...

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Originally by: Oveur

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To the nerfmobile!

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Originally by: Foomanshoe

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We used to all trade in Yulai if you'll remember, but apparently you werent too high and mighty to fix that when this problem happened there and completely rework the map.

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Originally by: Braaage

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Technically speaking you're wrong, you DID turn Jita into what it is now (...) You actually caused jita to happen, if you hadn't altered the highways and gates Yulai would still be the focus point.

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Originally by: Foomanshoe

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Originally by: Nice Guy

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Originally by: Foomanshoe

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We used to all trade in Yulai if you'll remember, but apparently you werent too high and mighty to fix that when this problem happened there and completely rework the map.

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Guess what, they learned from their mistake and figured they can't stop this kind of behavior with changing the map
So, they decided to give it a go, and see where it ended. Well Jita is the end of the story...

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My point would be that if they would listen to us in the first place, we all told them that their 'solution' was just a bandaid and the market would readjust and recentralize. Did they care? No they just ripped out the old highway anyways. But now Explorer comes here and acts like his **** dont stink and its not CCPs fault? Does no one in CCP have even a basic understanding of the market?

Make it a Market only system like necro suggests. Its a GOOD suggestion. Its a logical suggestion, and you can easily weave it into game lore if that is even a concern. 1.1 security? no war? maybe maybe not? but getting rid of all the stuff in the system that isnt necissary to the market such as agents, and blocking all agent missions from going through jita would be a fantastic idea. Preventing combat/locking is an option (extreme) as it means you dont even have to spawn concord/sentry guns and dont have to worry about combat lag.

At the bare minimum take the first steps in minimizing the unnecissary things in jita.

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Why do we need to fix Jita? We didn't create Jita...

Well, OK, existentially speaking we created Jita as in "Jita the solarsystem" but we didn't create Jita as in "Jita the overcrowded marketplace".

/puts on fire protection suit

You did.

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Originally by: Zosana

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If anything there should be an "avoid Jita" option on the autopilot.

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Originally by: Major Death

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Edited by: Major Death on 06/10/2007 23:46:34

Quote:

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The solution is obvious, trade somewhere else. It may not be as convenient and may be slightly more expensive but at least you avoid the pain of Jita. Perhaps that's the real issue, perhaps Jita still hasn't reached the pain threshold? The answer could then be to tax Jita? Make it more painful and less attractive.

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Jita exists because it saves the most valuable resource in EVE (something not mentioned in the economic blogs) - Player Time. With the exception of 23/7 pharmers or shared accounts, the player base of EVE has a life outside the game and wants to do things that are interesting while playing. Having a central market hub saves a lot of time. Imagine spending hours running around picking up your purchases, you begin to understand why people like trade hubs.
Start factoring in Player Time into your economic calculations and perhaps things might run more smoothly.

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Why do we need to fix Jita? We didn't create Jita...
[...]
You did.
[...]
The solution is obvious, trade somewhere else. It may not be as convenient and may be slightly more expensive but at least you avoid the pain of Jita. Perhaps that's the real issue, perhaps Jita still hasn't reached the pain threshold?

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Originally by: Foomanshoe

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Make it a Market only system like necro suggests. Its a GOOD suggestion. Its a logical suggestion, and you can easily weave it into game lore if that is even a concern. 1.1 security? no war? maybe maybe not? but getting rid of all the stuff in the system that isnt necissary to the market such as agents, and blocking all agent missions from going through jita would be a fantastic idea. Preventing combat/locking is an option (extreme) as it means you dont even have to spawn concord/sentry guns and dont have to worry about combat lag.

At the bare minimum take the first steps in minimizing the unnecissary things in jita.

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Originally by: Oveur

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To the nerfmobile!

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Originally by: Foomanshoe

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I really miss Devs talking to the player base on IRC. Does that still happen ever?

Also, could someone explain how explorers post isnt inflamitory?

I know i am coming off as a jerk, and ill apologize, it seems to me however that customer service has gone downhill from what i remember at CCP. I used to be proud that i played a game that had developers that interacted with their player base and listened to their suggestions seriously. Developers who wanted to make the best game possible and thought that a big part of that was having strong communication with your consumers.

Did something change while i was gone?

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Originally by: Venko Trenulo

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I appreciate all you've done to make an astounding game, by the way. This isn't whinging in that sense -- however, I going to call BS on the notion that you don't have a responsibility to keep it running.

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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You did.

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Originally by: Sul Condbax

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selective quoting ftl

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Originally by: BobBarkerr

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Trying to blame what happens in game on the user base is not acceptable when the issues ingame are not the problem.

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Quote:

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Want to fix jita? Get better or more servers. (While not the end all fix, This would drastically help)

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If only CCP has been very vocal about developing this, rewriting their network code, and utilizing systems that allow them to allocate more than one CPU to a system. If only

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Originally by: Jaabaa

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The issue isn't the server load but the economic distribution of ISK earners in empire space. Kind of like this:

Lots of rich mission runners wanting pimped rides = lots of people wanting to sell it to them.

So stick a load of level 4 agents in a nice system (like, ehm, Jita) and what do you get, a market (local) overload.

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Originally by: Foomanshoe

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We used to all trade in Yulai if you'll remember, but apparently you werent too high and mighty to fix that when this problem happened there and completely rework the map.

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That experience taught us never to try it again.

Originally by: Braaage

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Technically speaking you're wrong, you DID turn Jita into what it is now (...) You actually caused jita to happen, if you hadn't altered the highways and gates Yulai would still be the focus point.

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... my breakdown above would then have applied to Yulai instead of Jita.

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Originally by: Gungankllr

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The main problem is that of Convenience.

If you knew there was a store that sold the shoes you wanted, but you had to go a couple of blocks to get groceries, then a couple more blocks to get other stuff...

Would you rather go to a megastore where the prices were set same or less and buy everything in one place?

That's the main problem, is human nature. Most folks want to be able to go to one station, buy a cheap ship, modules, ammo and implants in one go, and because the sellers know that people will buy from there that is where they drag their stuff.

There isn't a real solution to it, if you increase taxes on one system like that then people will keep selling there unless they are a mass-market person and then prices will inflate to a point where maybe a second nearby centralized market pops up, but realistically everyone will use Jita until the wheels fall off.

One possibility would be to impose taxes based on character lineage, such as gallente characters would get a bonus from the Gallente Federation for selling their wares in Gallente space. If you were in a rival faction, they would impose some sort of import tax.

Of course, sales alts here we come.

One thing I had spun around in my head would be to designate a station system in each of the empire regions as a Regional Market Hub, and Give it a vast amount of factory slots and office space (and proprietary discounts on sales).

That might promote local regional building and sales of wares rather than having people drag everything to Jita.

Also, it would be helpful to get rid of all the asteroid belts in each of these "Supersystems"

If you REALLY want to promote the moving of sales to other areas, just drop the sec level to below .5, HOLEEE JESUS problem solved.

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Originally by: Jaabaa

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The issue isn't the server load but the economic distribution of ISK earners in empire space. Kind of like this:

Lots of rich mission runners wanting pimped rides = lots of people wanting to sell it to them.

So stick a load of level 4 agents in a nice system (like, ehm, Jita) and what do you get, a market (local) overload.

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Originally by: Gungankllr

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Would you rather go to a megastore where the prices were set same or less and buy everything in one place?

That's the main problem, is human nature. Most folks want to be able to go to one station, buy a cheap ship, modules, ammo and implants in one go

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Originally by: Occara

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Do like asheron's call did with arwic. Just nuke it out of existence during downtime.

if you have items there, too bad. nuke it! ;)

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Originally by: Cailais

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Here's my suggestion, it might seem a touch draconian but it could well work.

Levy a tax upon sales and purchases on the market based on current population. - Lets say you levey a 10% Tax, Jita (pop 600) now incurs a whopping 60% tax against the seller and the buyer. Fensi (pop 10) incurs an attractive 1% tax.

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Edited by: CCP Explorer on 07/10/2007 00:47:19

Originally by: Gungankllr

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Would you rather go to a megastore where the prices were set same or less and buy everything in one place?

That's the main problem, is human nature. Most folks want to be able to go to one station, buy a cheap ship, modules, ammo and implants in one go

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To me the discussion about an NPC courier service focus around this point; you would never actually have to go to Jita but would still shop in the megastore that Jita is. It would be interesting to hear other ideas that would support Jita in this way but also spread the load, over time or space. Why NPC couriers? Are there missing game mechanics that if implemented would enable players to establish courier services?

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Originally by: Cailais

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Here's my suggestion, it might seem a touch draconian but it could well work.

Levy a tax upon sales and purchases on the market based on current population. - Lets say you levey a 10% Tax, Jita (pop 600) now incurs a whopping 60% tax against the seller and the buyer. Fensi (pop 10) incurs an attractive 1% tax.

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Static tax would never work since then a new Jita would just form somewhere else but a dynamic load tax as you suggest might work. As a trade hub forms it automatically becomes less attractive as more players use it since the tax goes up. My concern with this approach is transparency and communication, how would you know what the tax currently is (how could that be effectively communicated) or what the tax will be next week or next month (for planning purposes)?

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Originally by: Oveur

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To the nerfmobile!

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Edited by: CCP Explorer on 07/10/2007 00:47:19

Originally by: Gungankllr

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Would you rather go to a megastore where the prices were set same or less and buy everything in one place?

That's the main problem, is human nature. Most folks want to be able to go to one station, buy a cheap ship, modules, ammo and implants in one go

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To me the discussion about an NPC courier service focus around this point; you would never actually have to go to Jita but would still shop in the megastore that Jita is. It would be interesting to hear other ideas that would support Jita in this way but also spread the load, over time or space. Why NPC couriers? Are there missing game mechanics that if implemented would enable players to establish courier services?

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Originally by: Gungankllr

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Edited by: CCP Explorer on 07/10/2007 00:47:19

Originally by: Gungankllr

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Would you rather go to a megastore where the prices were set same or less and buy everything in one place?

That's the main problem, is human nature. Most folks want to be able to go to one station, buy a cheap ship, modules, ammo and implants in one go

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To me the discussion about an NPC courier service focus around this point; you would never actually have to go to Jita but would still shop in the megastore that Jita is. It would be interesting to hear other ideas that would support Jita in this way but also spread the load, over time or space. Why NPC couriers? Are there missing game mechanics that if implemented would enable players to establish courier services?

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There would be automated contracts set by players giving a set amount of isk reward based on the m3 total and distance travelled.

The total amount of jumps would be averaged, and a reward would be paid to the hauler based on how many jumps closer to the destination he got the item.

if he took it in a different direction, or off the specified path the client specified, they would not be paid and within a set amount of time the contract would be voided and the item impounded.

if the hauler only took it halfway to the destination and had to log off or something along those lines, he could dock and click "stopping point" or something along those lines, and the contact would autoupdate and set itself for the shorter distance, sending a mail to the owner as to its current location and paying the hauler.

THAT is the way I would set up courier missions.

Tell me more about what you think about NPC couriers, and I'm sure everyone will be happy to give input.

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Originally by: Elmicker

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The problem with a "dynamic load tax" is that it destroys trade hubs. Trade hubs are a good thing, they reduce the time you have to spend trawling around markets looking for crap. the only problem is the lag inherent in so many people being in a system.

I like the idea of NPC couriers to spread the jita load across the surrounding systems, however there is the problem of this providing the goods with an element of safety not present with a player. I suppose the NPC couriers could be restricted from anyone with an active wardec, and if it pains the suicide gankers so much, they can always go the extra 1-2 jumps to find their prey.

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Originally by: Necronomicon

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Originally by: Mr McCargo

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I like phase 1, but phase 2's not gonna work.

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Well, in order to remain contructive, and being open to critisism, can you tell me why it will not work?

CCP obviously do need to do something about Jita, there are hundreds of trade routes that can be camped by the suicide alt crews, and the limit on sales would make markets less centralized and more spread out over the available area.

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Originally by: Kernel Sander

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Originally by: Necronomicon

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Originally by: Mr McCargo

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I like phase 1, but phase 2's not gonna work.

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Well, in order to remain contructive, and being open to critisism, can you tell me why it will not work?

CCP obviously do need to do something about Jita, there are hundreds of trade routes that can be camped by the suicide alt crews, and the limit on sales would make markets less centralized and more spread out over the available area.

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I can tell you why it wont work: Jita will just form somewhere other than jita. Look at a population map of the Earth, and note the formation of cities around major rivers, highways, etc. This is just how things work Jita is not a bug, it is a naturally occuring phenomenon. The only fix I could ever see would be to create a mechanism to do remote-purchasing of items with guaranteed remote delivery that was either faster than travelling to jita yourself, or where the time-delay for deliver outweighed the hassle of dealing with lag. An intriguing possibility arises for allowing players to become delivery people if a mechnism can be created to deter theft.

I agree that CCP should stop ignoring the problem and do something constructive about Jita, but I think the trick for them is to figure out what can be done that allows jita to remain itself, since attempts to end it will not be effective.

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Originally by: Cailais

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Here's my suggestion, it might seem a touch draconian but it could well work.

Levy a tax upon sales and purchases on the market based on current population. - Lets say you levey a 10% Tax, Jita (pop 600) now incurs a whopping 60% tax against the seller and the buyer. Fensi (pop 10) incurs an attractive 1% tax.

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Static tax would never work since then a new Jita would just form somewhere else but a dynamic load tax as you suggest might work. As a trade hub forms it automatically becomes less attractive as more players use it since the tax goes up. My concern with this approach is transparency and communication, how would you know what the tax currently is (how could that be effectively communicated) or what the tax will be next week or next month (for planning purposes)?

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Originally by: Cailais

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Here's my suggestion, it might seem a touch draconian but it could well work.

Levy a tax upon sales and purchases on the market based on current population. - Lets say you levey a 10% Tax, Jita (pop 600) now incurs a whopping 60% tax against the seller and the buyer. Fensi (pop 10) incurs an attractive 1% tax.

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Static tax would never work since then a new Jita would just form somewhere else but a dynamic load tax as you suggest might work. As a trade hub forms it automatically becomes less attractive as more players use it since the tax goes up. My concern with this approach is transparency and communication, how would you know what the tax currently is (how could that be effectively communicated) or what the tax will be next week or next month (for planning purposes)?

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Originally by: Cailais

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Here's my suggestion, it might seem a touch draconian but it could well work.

Levy a tax upon sales and purchases on the market based on current population. - Lets say you levey a 10% Tax, Jita (pop 600) now incurs a whopping 60% tax against the seller and the buyer. Fensi (pop 10) incurs an attractive 1% tax.

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Static tax would never work since then a new Jita would just form somewhere else but a dynamic load tax as you suggest might work. As a trade hub forms it automatically becomes less attractive as more players use it since the tax goes up. My concern with this approach is transparency and communication, how would you know what the tax currently is (how could that be effectively communicated) or what the tax will be next week or next month (for planning purposes)?

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Originally by: Silver Night

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The suggestion of NPC courier service, or worse, items instantly showing up wherever you are is badly flawed. The trouble is, if you do that, it destroys trade. There would be no difference between any two system s in entire regions. You could move items by moving 1 jump(region to region), selling the item to yourself at an inflated price all teh way across the region, 1 jump to the next region, rinse, repeat.

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Originally by: Silver Night

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The suggestion of NPC courier service, or worse, items instantly showing up wherever you are is badly flawed. The trouble is, if you do that, it destroys trade. There would be no difference between any two system s in entire regions.

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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I was not blaming anybody, merely pointing out that there are no game mechanism that force players to go to Jita, it's a choice.

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Static tax would never work since then a new Jita would just form somewhere else but a dynamic load tax as you suggest might work. As a trade hub forms it automatically becomes less attractive as more players use it since the tax goes up. My concern with this approach is transparency and communication, how would you know what the tax currently is (how could that be effectively communicated) or what the tax will be next week or next month (for planning purposes)?

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Originally by: Rilder

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Originally by: Cailais

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Here's my suggestion, it might seem a touch draconian but it could well work.

Levy a tax upon sales and purchases on the market based on current population. - Lets say you levey a 10% Tax, Jita (pop 600) now incurs a whopping 60% tax against the seller and the buyer. Fensi (pop 10) incurs an attractive 1% tax.

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Static tax would never work since then a new Jita would just form somewhere else but a dynamic load tax as you suggest might work. As a trade hub forms it automatically becomes less attractive as more players use it since the tax goes up. My concern with this approach is transparency and communication, how would you know what the tax currently is (how could that be effectively communicated) or what the tax will be next week or next month (for planning purposes)?

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What about something like this.

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Originally by: Silver Night

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The suggestion of NPC courier service, or worse, items instantly showing up wherever you are is badly flawed. The trouble is, if you do that, it destroys trade. There would be no difference between any two system s in entire regions. You could move items by moving 1 jump(region to region), selling the item to yourself at an inflated price all teh way across the region, 1 jump to the next region, rinse, repeat.

And that is only the first exploit that comes to mind. You end up with no region wide price variance, no difference between systems (regardless of sec status/remoteness), nothing. Its like instant stagnation. Automatic region wide price wars till destructive market over saturation.

Dynamic tax on sell orders, as I suggested on page 1, seems like a useful solution. Not based on population, but on the number of sell orders at a specific station. Not even system, per station. Obviously the exact rates would have to be balanced, but it would, I think be possible to find a balance between peoples laziness and traders desire for profit such that the several systems around Jita would be utilized.

Heck, in a perfect world, we might even see system by system specialization. Go to New Caldari for ships, Niyabainen for rigs etc. I know Nonni used to be the capital of Eve for mods and tech 2 ships (probably thanks to Naga) for example.

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Originally by: Manufakturka

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Meh,
solution is to create specialized marketprices by the mean of taxes and banned items.
That's something that people doing in RL, in fact it's only RL answer to stores like Walmart.

If you want to implement this idea or one of it's derivatives, my price is +7.0 to Caldari state. Serious.

Want to buy decent lazers go to place A, want awesome projectiles for decent price go to place B, etc. Or you can try to get it all in Jita, but you can expect your megapulses to be 40% more expensive and no tachyons at aoll, because after recent faction warfare skirmishes Caldari state does amarr slavedrivers at all.

It weill take a while for people to learn, but after some time everyone will just agree that best place to trade with hi-end implants is Yulai, while still good for most of your caldari needs.

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 07/10/2007 08:45:43

Originally by: CCP Explorer

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I was not blaming anybody, merely pointing out that there are no game mechanism that force players to go to Jita, it's a choice.

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People are all but forced to use the autopilot if they want to plot a route quickly. After the connection to Yulai was removed, and even after some of the other gates were also removed more recently, Jita still has an unusually large number of connections to other systems (and regions). A lot of people are always going to pass that way, and it's only natural for a trade hub to spring up there.

Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Static tax would never work since then a new Jita would just form somewhere else but a dynamic load tax as you suggest might work. As a trade hub forms it automatically becomes less attractive as more players use it since the tax goes up. My concern with this approach is transparency and communication, how would you know what the tax currently is (how could that be effectively communicated) or what the tax will be next week or next month (for planning purposes)?

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My suggestion here is to apply charges based on congestion rather than volume of trade, based on the average # of pilots in space over the past 24 hours; a toll on people jumping into the system. The toll for each system could be shown on the map (and, when in space, in the 'System Information' section at the top left of the screen), and the autopilot could use Dijkstra's algorithm to work out the cheapest route from A to B as well as displaying the total cost of a journey.

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Originally by: Mrsticks

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Originally by: Cailais

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Here's my suggestion, it might seem a touch draconian but it could well work.

Levy a tax upon sales and purchases on the market based on current population. - Lets say you levey a 10% Tax, Jita (pop 600) now incurs a whopping 60% tax against the seller and the buyer. Fensi (pop 10) incurs an attractive 1% tax.

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Static tax would never work since then a new Jita would just form somewhere else but a dynamic load tax as you suggest might work. As a trade hub forms it automatically becomes less attractive as more players use it since the tax goes up. My concern with this approach is transparency and communication, how would you know what the tax currently is (how could that be effectively communicated) or what the tax will be next week or next month (for planning purposes)?

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Crazzy idea here :P
Based off of the total Eve universe market shares for that day LOWER the security standing in that sys... problem solved
Jita would be a instant 0.0 and the lesser hubs would probably jump down to 0.5 or less, would defanatly move people around."might wana put up Jump jammers lest titans start floating around in jita

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Originally by: Taikun

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P.S. Your 'customer service" attitude blow chunks and I pray to gawd you get bounced from your job from mouthing off to this community and trying to blame us for your sub-par coding/game mechanic talents.

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Originally by: Cailais

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'Congestion Charges' apply the 'tax' at the wrong point - you're taxing travel, not sales or purchase. This might reduce traffic on busier lanes, but static players (alts etc) would never be effected: Jita would fill up with (more) alts. Also people passing through would be charged - and you really want to encourage movement as it distributes the population (and hence the lag).

C.

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Originally by: Necronomicon

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The problem with your argument is that I want to buy something at the price I want to pay, for example.

Vindicator in Jita 820 mill
Vindicator in Kor Azor 900 Mill

So you expect someone to travel an extra 20 jumps to pickup a ship 80 million more expensive? I like your logic.

It is like saying "Well ofc it is busy in town and at the supermarket as they have everythign you need at good prices, if you drive 50 miles out into the sticks, I am sure you can find a village shop that will sell half of what you need at twice the price."

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Edited by: CCP Explorer on 07/10/2007 00:47:19

Originally by: Gungankllr

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Would you rather go to a megastore where the prices were set same or less and buy everything in one place?

That's the main problem, is human nature. Most folks want to be able to go to one station, buy a cheap ship, modules, ammo and implants in one go

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To me the discussion about an NPC courier service focus around this point; you would never actually have to go to Jita but would still shop in the megastore that Jita is. It would be interesting to hear other ideas that would support Jita in this way but also spread the load, over time or space. Why NPC couriers? Are there missing game mechanics that if implemented would enable players to establish courier services?

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Originally by: SirMoric

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Doesn't this belong in "features and ideas"?

But they could simply make a limit on the amount of players allowed to be in Jita, so if you're going there and it's full, you can't get in.

rgds

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Originally by: SirMoric

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But they could simply make a limit on the amount of players allowed to be in Jita, so if you're going there and it's full, you can't get in.

rgds

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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Originally by: Cailais

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'Congestion Charges' apply the 'tax' at the wrong point - you're taxing travel, not sales or purchase. This might reduce traffic on busier lanes, but static players (alts etc) would never be effected: Jita would fill up with (more) alts. Also people passing through would be charged - and you really want to encourage movement as it distributes the population (and hence the lag).

C.

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Well, suppose the charge to enter Jita reaches 1m isk. It then becomes less worthwhile to go to Jita to buy less than several million isk worth of goods, and people setting up shop in nearby systems that aren't so congested will start to see more sales (at lower volumes per sale).

If the charge continued to rise, more and more goods would no longer be worth buying at Jita. People who still wanted to buy there out of convenience would have an added incentive to wait until they needed to make a large number number of purchases. Gradually, all but the largest traders (by volume) would end up moving out.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jita permanently retained its status as a major minerals/materials trading hub, as so much hauling is involved and many people speculate there without entering or leaving the system. If people are doing trade without causing congestion, it's only fair that they're not affect by congestion charges, of course.

Granted, this proposal would be better as a preventative measure than a solution to the current problem. I suppose an escalating daily charge for people staying in the system might complement the congestion charge (how about 1m isk, doubling every day in which you log on unless you spend at least 24 hours outside the system before returning?), but I don't think such a charge should be applied except in systems where the congestion charge reaches a certain (extreme) level.

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Originally by: Cailais

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Finally has anyone else noticed that CCP Explorer is working on a Sunday!

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: SirMoric

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Doesn't this belong in "features and ideas"?

But they could simply make a limit on the amount of players allowed to be in Jita, so if you're going there and it's full, you can't get in.

rgds

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Well I was answering his question, but of course you are quite right.

I'm not sure I like just limiting the number of players. I'd rather see Jita System Traffic Control Authority charge people for being in the system (even if docked). 100 ISK/min for every player over 500 in the system would encourage people to GTFO quick enough when local hits 700. 20k per minute isn't backbreaking if you're just going to jump in, dock up, load up your cargo and get the heck out ASAP.

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Originally by: JADE DRAG0NESS

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Heres a solution.

Change Jita to a 0.4 system.

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Originally by: Necronomicon

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Phase 1

1. Remove all NPC markets from the system, player only transactions.
2. Remove all unrequired eye candy (Billboards etc)
3. Remove all agents no matter how un-used they are.

This will increase the system somewhat.

Phase 2

1. Place a limit on items for sale per station (this will force players to use different stations, and at full saturation, will be forced to market in nearby systems, thus a market constellation will form rather than a single system)


2. Make a new security rating of 1.1, concord's premiere security, outside of war, any vessel opening fire is instabbqd before they are even able to hit the target vessel - This will root out the alt corp suiciders who snag up the stations, and also reduce clutter at the gates.

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Originally by: Vyktor Abyss

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Just wondering if you're looking at this the wrong way round...

Rather than taxing Jita, I'd suggest you have tax discounts in systems where CCP would prefer the trade to occur.

Personally I think each region should have a standard tax rate which is lowered in the emptier regions to encourage traders to set up there. Have a quarterly CONCORD review or whatever to evaluate trade in the different regions and establish the tax rate for the next 3 months. you could even break this down another way - making ship sales tax lowest in the Forge for example, weapons sales taxes lowest in Domain, Shielding modules in Bleak Lands....(you get the picture).

I'm sure this would sway some traders away from Jita for the potential tax breaks elsewhere, though in essence you will always need and have 1 'convenience' shopping spot in Eve. The thing you need is more competetive hubs in other regions to take the bottom line away from one system (Jita).

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Originally by: Necronomicon

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Originally by: Mr McCargo

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I like phase 1, but phase 2's not gonna work.

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Well, in order to remain contructive, and being open to critisism, can you tell me why it will not work?

CCP obviously do need to do something about Jita, there are hundreds of trade routes that can be camped by the suicide alt crews, and the limit on sales would make markets less centralized and more spread out over the available area.

Having everything in 4-4 is just a laziness that has been allowed to blaze out of control. Perimeter, and Niyabainen both have a good station structure, there is no reason other than the aforementioned laziness for having everything in the one station.

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Originally by: James Duar

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Also, could they confirm/deny that typical human behavior is to form centralized markets to enable the greatest volume of goods interchange thus benefiting sellers and buyers and in fact "Jita" has nothing to do with where the system is.

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Originally by: Cailais

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Suggestion and comments.

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Originally by: Cailais

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Finally has anyone else noticed that CCP Explorer is working on a Sunday!

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It's a really good discussion, worth spending the weekend on monitoring

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Originally by: Necronomicon

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Phase 1

1. Remove all NPC markets from the system, player only transactions.
2. Remove all unrequired eye candy (Billboards etc)
3. Remove all agents no matter how un-used they are.

This will increase the system somewhat.

Phase 2

1. Place a limit on items for sale per station (this will force players to use different stations, and at full saturation, will be forced to market in nearby systems, thus a market constellation will form rather than a single system)


2. Make a new security rating of 1.1, concord's premiere security, outside of war, any vessel opening fire is instabbqd before they are even able to hit the target vessel - This will root out the alt corp suiciders who snag up the stations, and also reduce clutter at the gates.

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Originally by: Flinx Evenstar

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Love the new need for speed initiative.

Pilots involved in a fleet battle can post on the forum and get a reply about wha

Originally by: Vyktor Abyss

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Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 07/10/2007 17:25:04

Originally by: Cailais

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Suggestion and comments.

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I liked your idea and agree in principle, but the issues I have with tax rates adjusting in real time are:
1. It is probably pretty server/code intensive to monitor the system and adjust the tax rate continuously on lots and lots of orders.
2. I don't want to put an order up to see it de-vauled as other people arrive and put more orders up (increasing/changing the tax rate). It makes planning too difficult.

3 months is the maximum order duration which is why I recommended that time between tax changes. It'd also give serious traders some external market changes to react to to make the most of their goods.

If the concern with lowered taxes in areas reduces the tax ISK sink then I'd suggest other ISK sinks be introduced...Perhaps a jump fee into busy Empire systems (as already discussed)?

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Originally by: CCP Ginger

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No sex changes.

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Originally by: Allen Ramses

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Am I the only one horrified by the amount of brush-off logic and lack of reason in this thread? Saying "Don't go to Jita" is like saying "Don't go to the supermarket". Supermarkets are crowded, but some of the time it's the only place you can buy something in particular.

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Originally by: Akita T

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No, it's a trap ! I can tell from some of the modules and from seeing quite a few traps in my time...

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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Originally by: Allen Ramses

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Am I the only one horrified by the amount of brush-off logic and lack of reason in this thread? Saying "Don't go to Jita" is like saying "Don't go to the supermarket". Supermarkets are crowded, but some of the time it's the only place you can buy something in particular.

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Jita is not the only place you can buy what you need though. If you can't handle the lag in Jita don't go to Jita. Unless you are a MAJOR manufacturer or trader, you don't really need to ever go to Jita if you don't like being there.

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 07/10/2007 21:45:19

Originally by: Allen Ramses

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Am I the only one horrified by the amount of brush-off logic and lack of reason in this thread? Saying "Don't go to Jita" is like saying "Don't go to the supermarket". Supermarkets are crowded, but some of the time it's the only place you can buy something in particular.

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Jita is not the only place you can buy what you need though. If you can't handle the lag in Jita don't go to Jita. Unless you are a MAJOR manufacturer or trader, you don't really need to ever go to Jita if you don't like being there.

Edit: Anything but the absolute rarest faction/officer modules that any regular pod pilot (as in not a big manufacturer or something like that) could possibly need can be easily had pretty much anywhere else in high sec empire space. You may need to go a few jumps back and forth to get all you need together, and may have to pay slightly more, but it will be there.

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Originally by: Cailais

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All true enough, but players will endure a tremendous amount if it is more convenient for them to puchase and sell items in one location.

You can go blue in the face telling them 'hey this isnt the only Mal!' - its just not going to sink in.

Put a wacking great dent in their wallet however....

C.

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Originally by: Kessiaan

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Originally by: Cailais

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All true enough, but players will endure a tremendous amount if it is more convenient for them to puchase and sell items in one location.

You can go blue in the face telling them 'hey this isnt the only Mal!' - its just not going to sink in.

Put a wacking great dent in their wallet however....

C.

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There's only two things that would permanantly fix the situation and keep it from happening again, imo.

1) Put a hard limit on how many sell orders can be active in any given system, or
2) Start jacking up the broker fee after a certain number of sell orders is reached (same thing as #1, only a 'soft' limit instead of a hard one)

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Originally by: Deviana Sevidon

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It is not all about player laziness, but it has something to do with the Jita-Problem.

From a Buyers perspective, not always but often you get the best prices or at least average prices in Jita. Buying rare and expensive items via contract, slso often leads to the contract in Jita 4-4. So if you want something, or simply want to order larger volumes, their is no way to avoid Jita.

CCP could create an event, where all stations in Jita are being eaten by a giant space monster, but then simply new Caldari or Perimeter would become the new Jita.

How about this, the game already has sales taxes. So add increased taxes to the sales volume of a station. If sales in a certain station reach massive levels the tax is raised by the station management until it becomes a real pain on any transaction.

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Originally by: Vyyrus

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fix: Make market truly player operated. This will balance prices out everywhere give shoppers more choices to go rather than just jita.

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Originally by: Cailais

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 07/10/2007 21:45:19

Originally by: Allen Ramses

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Am I the only one horrified by the amount of brush-off logic and lack of reason in this thread? Saying "Don't go to Jita" is like saying "Don't go to the supermarket". Supermarkets are crowded, but some of the time it's the only place you can buy something in particular.

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Jita is not the only place you can buy what you need though. If you can't handle the lag in Jita don't go to Jita. Unless you are a MAJOR manufacturer or trader, you don't really need to ever go to Jita if you don't like being there.

Edit: Anything but the absolute rarest faction/officer modules that any regular pod pilot (as in not a big manufacturer or something like that) could possibly need can be easily had pretty much anywhere else in high sec empire space. You may need to go a few jumps back and forth to get all you need together, and may have to pay slightly more, but it will be there.

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All true enough, but players will endure a tremendous amount if it is more convenient for them to puchase and sell items in one location.

You can go blue in the face telling them 'hey this isnt the only Mal!' - its just not going to sink in.

Put a wacking great dent in their wallet however....

C.

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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Thanks for all the excellent ideas and thoughts on the different types and possible implementations of dynamic taxes, NPC vs. player courier services, turning Jita into a virtual system, etc, etc. Good stuff, keep it coming.

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Originally by: Cailais

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A door tax (pay to enter), or a loitering tax (pay to stay) works; but only up to a point. The system employed must be dynamic - effecting all systems otherwise a 'new jita' will just pop up nearby (and then you need to tax that and so forth.

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Quote:

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If you apply a tax by gates (the more traffic through a gate, the higher the toll fee) you'll get high cost and low cost corridor routes - which in theory would work, but then your charging players just to move around and I don't think that will be popular. To save isk players will move less and markets would stagnate.

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Quote:

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One interesting side note about a dynamic tax system per head of population is its possible impact upon low sec, and 0.0. Low Sec is often slated (there's no 'reward' for going there). But as Low Sec is typically less populated in theory low sec players will be better off in localised areas as they will pay less in taxation for trades (assuming they don't aim for a wider market and sell in Empire).

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Quote:

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.0 Alliances could conceivably set their own tax rates - a Alliance that has a low tax rate at its Outposts would attract trade: if it can also police its native space it might make good revenue from such taxation. Assuming said alliance doesnt want to Tax its own membership (lets say you can adjust your Sov Sys tax rate by standing) and doesnt employ a NBSI policy it could make a lot of ISK.

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Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch

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3. Allow people to buy things from Jita without being in Jita. Those systems right next to Jita you mentioned, link a station in each system to Jita 4-4 so that shopping in a 4-4 mirror is the same as shopping in Jita 4-4. This method or that EVE-wide interbus idea you've been teasing us with forever.

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Originally by: Tortun Nahme

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REAL solution to the Jita problem

ban everyone who makes a Jita thread!

jita population will drop like crazeh!

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Originally by: Royaldo

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complete win by Cornucopian!

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Originally by: Verite Rendition

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Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch

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3. Allow people to buy things from Jita without being in Jita. Those systems right next to Jita you mentioned, link a station in each system to Jita 4-4 so that shopping in a 4-4 mirror is the same as shopping in Jita 4-4. This method or that EVE-wide interbus idea you've been teasing us with forever.

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This is pretty much the key. The immediate area needs to be converted to an official trade zone. Make every system Jita connects to (and only these systems) a member of the trade zone, and allow any goods purchased from any station in this zone to immediately be delivered to any other station in the trade zone.

This immediately splits up the load in Jita from 1 system to 5 or 6 systems without breaking the centralized market, because you won't need to go in to Jita when you can stop 1 jump out. The fact of the matter is that this isn't a warzone, there's no reason why people need to be on the same node as long as goods can be delivered elsewhere. Furthermore this seems like it would be easy to implement and is virtually abuse-proof (since it's limited to just Jita).

Sure, some RP purists will have issues with goods immediately appearing at another station, but so what? It improves the player experience without any significant negative consequences. It is just a game after all.

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Originally by: Cailais

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Originally by: Verite Rendition

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Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch

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3. Allow people to buy things from Jita without being in Jita. Those systems right next to Jita you mentioned, link a station in each system to Jita 4-4 so that shopping in a 4-4 mirror is the same as shopping in Jita 4-4. This method or that EVE-wide interbus idea you've been teasing us with forever.

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This is pretty much the key. The immediate area needs to be converted to an official trade zone. Make every system Jita connects to (and only these systems) a member of the trade zone, and allow any goods purchased from any station in this zone to immediately be delivered to any other station in the trade zone.

This immediately splits up the load in Jita from 1 system to 5 or 6 systems without breaking the centralized market, because you won't need to go in to Jita when you can stop 1 jump out. The fact of the matter is that this isn't a warzone, there's no reason why people need to be on the same node as long as goods can be delivered elsewhere. Furthermore this seems like it would be easy to implement and is virtually abuse-proof (since it's limited to just Jita).

Sure, some RP purists will have issues with goods immediately appearing at another station, but so what? It improves the player experience without any significant negative consequences. It is just a game after all.

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While this would probably work (after all you're creating a multi-system 'jita') Id be worried what impact it would have on the global market, players might now only go to this hyper-mal to trade and nowhere else.

C.

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Originally by: Necronomicon

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Phase 1

1. Remove all NPC markets from the system, player only transactions.
2. Remove all unrequired eye candy (Billboards etc)
3. Remove all agents no matter how un-used they are.

This will increase the system somewhat.

Phase 2

1. Place a limit on items for sale per station (this will force players to use different stations, and at full saturation, will be forced to market in nearby systems, thus a market constellation will form rather than a single system)


2. Make a new security rating of 1.1, concord's premiere security, outside of war, any vessel opening fire is instabbqd before they are even able to hit the target vessel - This will root out the alt corp suiciders who snag up the stations, and also reduce clutter at the gates.

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Originally by: alt muppet

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the buyers should not be penalised for shopping in jita, they dont have much option but to go there.
tax the sellorders extremely hard so the sellorders a jump or 3 away is up to 30-50% more profitable=congestion fixed
call it overusage fee or congestion tax or whatever but when sellorders and contracts reach a certain amount in jita the tax should kick in and force remaining orders to vacate or do very bad business.

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Originally by: Royaldo

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complete win by Cornucopian!

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Originally by: alt muppet

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tax the sellorders extremely hard so the sellorders a jump or 3 away is up to 30-50% more profitable=congestion fixed

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Originally by: Major Dim

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Edited by: Major Dim on 06/10/2007 18:54:07
The solution that i hear always - DONT GO TO JITA - is really not a valuable one. If u look into the RL for a second, we have supermarkets, bazars and so on. people tend to make the trades easier for both sides - the buyer and the seller. And forbidding one to go to jita is not an option - everyone pays the same price for playing and has a right to go to any system he wants. And with the recent adverts of CCP like having a 1000 man battles i wonder WTF IS GOING ON? We pay all the same ammount and they advertise, but a system with 700ppl in it doing trades just goes down and doesnt work.... Its not the players fault that one system - which became the main trading system ingame - doesnt work properly. Its the devs fault that they cant make it work as it should for the money we pay. There are many ways that could ake it work - for exaple - FAR TRADE skill with delivery. Iplement a skill that would allow u to buy things reotely and get the there where u are atm. So u could be in any system at the region and buy the things and get the at the place u are - without the need to fly to Jita. but that would make many ppl sick cuz they trained trading and so on and the game becamae a diffrent ballance. There are many troubles with that - but telling ppl they shouldnt go to the main trading system if they want avoid client crashes is just sick. We pay, we want, and we deserve. Remeber - we all are equial but some are more equial than others ---- that MUST NOT BE. I want a bazar and CCP the hell have to offer me it in the same way they offer to others. So there must be a system capeable of holding 1000+ players without lag. My 2 cents are off. Fly safe

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Things CCP could do:
- Remove all agents from Jita and directly surrounding systems
- Create jumpgate bypasses around Jita that mkae travel easier/faster to reduce transit traffic that only adds to the load.
- Rearrange stuff in Jita, make sure that the 4-4 Station exit directly FACES all the gates out, so people leaving have an easier time to get out.
- Remove all unneeded fluf from Jita.

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Originally by: Esmenet

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Things CCP could do:
- Remove all agents from Jita and directly surrounding systems
- Create jumpgate bypasses around Jita that mkae travel easier/faster to reduce transit traffic that only adds to the load.
- Rearrange stuff in Jita, make sure that the 4-4 Station exit directly FACES all the gates out, so people leaving have an easier time to get out.
- Remove all unneeded fluf from Jita.

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This, as has been said many times before, is just a bandaid fix that will let you squeeze in a few more players before you end up with the exact same problem. Any real solution to the lag will encourage/force players to spread out instead of grouping together in one hub. That will only hurt the players that feel they have to go to jita because it has a lot of people trading. So if you feel that jita is the only solution for you, you have to live with the lag or wait for ccp to nerf tradehubs/trade in general.

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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- Remove all unneeded fluf from Jita.

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Incorrect. Do you really think people go to Jita because they like lag?

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Quote:

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There are distinct wealth benefits to the agglomeration effect we see in Jita, whether they be lower prices, quicker sale, more choice in goods (reducing overall traveltime/needs). If you spread out the hub over multiple places, you are reducing those benefits. Once the cons start to outweigh the pros, Jita will stop growing, albeit there are negative external effects which are not being taken into account, similar to the negative external effects of people in everyday morning traffic jams.

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Quote:

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But overall, it would be better to accomodate the hub effect rather than fight it, in terms of wealth maximalisation.

The most radical possibility would be to change Jita from a whole system and turn it into a big station, where every time someone jumps into Jita from a surrounding system, they don't load the system environment, but the station environment instead. I'd assume that 1000 people in a station would not nearly cause as much lag as a similar number in space.

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Originally by: Esmenet

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Depending on how it works it may be that the new system coming sometime in 2008 that will dynamically allocate server resources based on the number of people in system will solve this problem without nerfing anyone. But then you just have to live with a laggy jita for a while or start trading at one of the other tradehubs.

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Originally by: Kayna Eelai

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are you telling me that a game that went on release nearly 4 years ago is NOT using this allready? a dinamic cluster system is a MUST in the mmo industry, and most other MMO are using something like that for ages allready.

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Originally by: Esmenet

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Mentioned here and some other dev blogs
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=493

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Originally by: CCP Explorer

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What is this fascination with Jita? Why only Jita? What's wrong with New Caldari, Maurasi, Perimeter, Niyabainen and Ikuchi? All in The Forge and one jump from Jita.

The solution is obvious, trade somewhere else. It may not be as convenient and may be slightly more expensive but at least you avoid the pain of Jita.

Perhaps that's the real issue, perhaps Jita still hasn't reached the pain threshold? The answer could then be to tax Jita? Make it more painful and less attractive.

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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Originally by: alt muppet

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tax the sellorders extremely hard so the sellorders a jump or 3 away is up to 30-50% more profitable=congestion fixed

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Get out of the Forge and discover the many other regional markets that do exist out there, and the problem will be solved.

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Originally by: Vitaki

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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Originally by: alt muppet

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tax the sellorders extremely hard so the sellorders a jump or 3 away is up to 30-50% more profitable=congestion fixed

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Get out of the Forge and discover the many other regional markets that do exist out there, and the problem will be solved.

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Get out of the forge and discover that the other markets can't support full time bpo production of most ships and modules and realize that you were making 10x or 20x the profit back at Jita.

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Originally by: Zosana

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If anything there should be an "avoid Jita" option on the autopilot.

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