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Damned Force
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Posted - 2007.10.15 07:41:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Damned Force on 15/10/2007 07:44:42 Good change, grat devs. Just the incrased sig radius is a bit unbalanced. Than u should incrase sig radius to all BS sized short range weapons: Blasters, autocannons, pulse lasers
Sokratesz asked for similiar modules as tracking computers and Lukec answered web etc. That not right. because tracking computers dont effect your weapons just in 10km range. So i think Devs should make such mod for missiles too.
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illusionary beauty
Raid Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.15 07:44:00 -
[152]
BOOST POS TORP BATTERIES!
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.15 07:48:00 -
[153]
I love this change, now there'll be options for pvp Raven as opposed to the standard armour-tank and ewar fits.
And I don't mind the huuuge sig radius either. The choice is clear - go for gank or tank. Most (well, the balanced ones anyway...) ships have to make a choice along those line, and it's better than not having such a choice at all.
Hmmm... a group of 3 triple-BCS torp Ravens, with rigged remote-rep armour tanks, painters and ewar? Sounds nice.
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Damned Force
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Posted - 2007.10.15 08:02:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Gypsio III I love this change, now there'll be options for pvp Raven as opposed to the standard armour-tank and ewar fits.
And I don't mind the huuuge sig radius either. The choice is clear - go for gank or tank. Most (well, the balanced ones anyway...) ships have to make a choice along those line, and it's better than not having such a choice at all.
Hmmm... a group of 3 triple-BCS torp Ravens, with rigged remote-rep armour tanks, painters and ewar? Sounds nice.
Sure, the sig radius is not so big problem, just than the other races should have such sig on the low range weapons too
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Ms Belle
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Posted - 2007.10.15 08:34:00 -
[155]
I quite like these changes as dropping spawns in 0.0 will now be much faster and for PvP I can with a all in gank setup and still get great damage at range by using jav's.
For fleet battles tanks are not that great (an active tank is all PvE. Does not have much of a place in PvP unless you are a cap ship and even then...)
So I would use a setup which involves Torps and a Remote repper/smartbombs in the highs, EWAR/Speed/Painters in the mids (Loads of flexibility here) and in the lows your BCU's and plates/resist. Yes she handles like a brick anyway but in a fleet battle you should either be set at your optimal or warp onto a ally who is already there (in an ideal world) Rigs can be used to either augment your Ewar or trimarks/resists.
Not sure on the fitting requirements so if someone could check I would appreciate it. Also I know Rage torps are Poo but has anyone checked how the changes effect them?
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Jasai Kameron
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.15 08:56:00 -
[156]
Edited by: Jasai Kameron on 15/10/2007 08:57:46 Edited by: Jasai Kameron on 15/10/2007 08:57:03
Originally by: Kailiani 0.6% dmg increased on a unpainted Mega.
That's not an argument in and of itself. How much dps does a Mega do without supporting modules? Probably none if it doesn't have MwD and a webber because a) tracking will be a problem and b) it's highly unlikely the target will be within its limited range.
Tell me how much the damage increase is on a blasterthron with one painter and then I'll either agree or disagree with you based on that.
Quote: Maybe the speeds need to be checked.. Oh and 0.6% dmg increase unpainted. If the raven fit TP's to actually use the damage it'd be dead quick without a tank.
Okay, I checked it. Blasterthron with 2 1600mm rolled tungsten and 3 x trimarks = 969 m/s with a named MWD. Raven with a named microwarp drive = 1028 m/s. Obviously it will be even better if you can fit the T2 MWD on the Raven. No idea how feasible that is.
Why will it be dead quick? I assume you'd fit propulsion, painter, warp disruptor, right? That leaves three mid slots for tank and 2-3 lo slots for tank. So you can fit 1 booster, 2 x Invulnerability fields, and a few PDUs. You can even use your rig slots for tank if you like.
This isn't PVE. You don't have to fit a six mid slot tank to survive. On the typical Blasterthron, there are only 4 or maybe 5 slots dedicated to tank. If you count lo-slot modules like the PDS that do aid your tank then you have exactly the same situation.
Quote: I don't know the formula but... explosion velocity is 250, which should mean any speed over 250= reduced dmg. Need the formula tho..
Aye.
Quote: Yea, I guess caldari/amarr are pre-nerfed for needing a gang.
Well, like I say, there are some ships that are better solo but worse in a gang and some which are better in a gang but worse solo. That's not prima facie unbalanced. That said, I still think a Raven with this amount of dps has a fair chance 1 on 1 vs. a Blasterthron. But either way, its going to be a much better ship in a mid-sized gang.
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Tom Rebane
Nova Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.15 09:21:00 -
[157]
well im not a fan of torps but on their current state on sisi, their dps is higher though reduced unless your using a target painter, plus the advantage torps had was they had an decent range 151km with max skills in a raven now with max skills you get 30km (with stardard t1 torp) and this aint great if your sensor dampened to hell and back, i know this thread has alot of complaints and congradulations, i personally think these "new" torps need to be tested till the cows come home
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.15 09:28:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Jasai Kameron
Okay, I checked it. Blasterthron with 2 1600mm rolled tungsten and 3 x trimarks = 969 m/s with a named MWD. Raven with a named microwarp drive = 1028 m/s. Obviously it will be even better if you can fit the T2 MWD on the Raven. No idea how feasible that is.
Why will it be dead quick? I assume you'd fit propulsion, painter, warp disruptor, right? That leaves three mid slots for tank and 2-3 lo slots for tank. So you can fit 1 booster, 2 x Invulnerability fields, and a few PDUs. You can even use your rig slots for tank if you like.
you are not quite right. you gonna die quick fighting a plated neutron mega with a 2-3slot tank without remmoterep support.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2007.10.15 09:34:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Jasai Kameron
That's not an argument in and of itself. How much dps does a Mega do without supporting modules? Probably none if it doesn't have MwD and a webber because a) tracking will be a problem and b) it's highly unlikely the target will be within its limited range.
Tell me how much the damage increase is on a blasterthron with one painter and then I'll either agree or disagree with you based on that.
Okay, I checked it. Blasterthron with 2 1600mm rolled tungsten and 3 x trimarks = 969 m/s with a named MWD. Raven with a named microwarp drive = 1028 m/s. Obviously it will be even better if you can fit the T2 MWD on the Raven. No idea how feasible that is.
Is the missile guide all wrong then? Using the figures it gives, and one T2 painter, that mega will take ~2% reduced damage from sig radius, and ~20% from speed reduction. Something going at 1500m/s will take less then half the damage.
A typhoon will get a 20% reduction for sig, and if it's faster even more reduction from speed then the Mega.
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Tom Rebane
Nova Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.15 09:36:00 -
[160]
the missle guide in eve does not include the torp nerf/buff, as they said its in testing and isnt set yet, so they of course wouldnt update the guide to include these changes.......yet.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2007.10.15 09:53:00 -
[161]
The missile guide lets you set explosion veloxity, sig radius and so forth.
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Tom Rebane
Nova Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.15 09:54:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Qui Shon The missile guide lets you set explosion veloxity, sig radius and so forth.
cant remember but without skills the explosive radius of a torp is now 530, guide only goes upto 500
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2007.10.15 09:59:00 -
[163]
Should still be fairly close though. Or?
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Gavin Darklighter
Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.10.15 12:30:00 -
[164]
Leave explosion radius at 400m2 (or even smaller, 320m2 is the size of the typhoon) for ALL torpedo types (even rage).
Nerf torp explosion velocity to 80m/s for T1 and Javelin, and 40m/s for Rage. This makes T1 torps hit for full damage on battleships that are not using MWD, but BS moving faster than 160m/s will have a damage reductio. Smaller ships like cruiser, dictors, frigs, ect will take almost NO damage when microwarping, but if they get webbed down and leave on their mwd, torps will hit them hard, just like BS guns would.
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Jasai Kameron
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.15 13:08:00 -
[165]
Edited by: Jasai Kameron on 15/10/2007 13:13:38
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Jasai Kameron
Okay, I checked it. Blasterthron with 2 1600mm rolled tungsten and 3 x trimarks = 969 m/s with a named MWD. Raven with a named microwarp drive = 1028 m/s. Obviously it will be even better if you can fit the T2 MWD on the Raven. No idea how feasible that is.
Why will it be dead quick? I assume you'd fit propulsion, painter, warp disruptor, right? That leaves three mid slots for tank and 2-3 lo slots for tank. So you can fit 1 booster, 2 x Invulnerability fields, and a few PDUs. You can even use your rig slots for tank if you like.
you are not quite right. you gonna die quick fighting a plated neutron mega with a 2-3slot tank without remmoterep support.
Yes, but the Megathron will die quickly fighting a 1000 dps Raven. The question is who dies first.
So - I put together a Raven with max skills, 1 x Large Shield Extender, 2 x Invulnerability Field, 1 x PDS, 1 x Damage Control (and 3 x BCU) and 3 x Core Defence Field Extender. (I also fitted 6 x Siege Launchers, 2 x named nosf, 1 x Quad MWD, 1 x Warp Disruptor and 1 x named target painter).
I got 99,181 effective hp, taking resistances into account.
A Neutron Plated Mega with 2 x Plates, 1 x EAN, 1 x DC, 3 x trimarks equals 105,047 effective hp. However the Megathron has no shield recharge. I believe the Raven above is recharging about 83 hp/ sec, so if the fight lasts a minute it will have an extra 4,980 hp, which brings them practically level.
Of course, the Megathron is doing more dps by 150 odd dps, so I guess it comes down to two things - capacitor and how much damage the Raven can do to the Mega on the approach - as well as the really crucial issue, which is that the Raven is the faster ship with these setups and can control range.
I'm afraid this was all done in EFT (using T2 gear unless otherwise stated). I can post the full setups for flaming if needed. I realise that it's all very hypothetical. All I'm trying to say is that it's not as simple as "The Raven is going to get pwned against a Blasterthron", because, quite simply, it's a lot more complicated than that.
Edited: I forgot to add that the Raven can choose damage type. If he uses explosive torps the Blasterthron's going to be having a very bad day.
Also I know most people will fit an active tank on a Raven, and I think that would work well, too. However, it was easiest to compare an hp tank, since that's what the Megathron was using. As you can see, the hp tanks are very comparable.
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Sneer Quen
WING MAN INC The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.10.15 13:49:00 -
[166]
as far as bs duel tanking and using mwd in bs how long ? 2 min or less relax and go back from clouds AC minmatar setup has 4-5 km optimal and 20 fallof and it needs ab/mwd to reach target raven has 30 km+ and also needs one mid slot / TP with this slot used it is more or less 30 km optimal and minnie ???? in order to give full dmg it needs to go to 5 km !!!!
it is a caldari buff for me
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Jasai Kameron
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.15 13:59:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Sneer Quen as far as bs duel tanking and using mwd in bs how long ? 2 min or less
Er, neither BS were active tanking. The Raven can run the MWD for 2 minutes. Once it turns the MWD off it can run everything indefinitely.
Anyway, I agree that the comparison is a bit silly. I can't see many 1v1s taking place along these lines. All I meant to show was that the Raven would not be underpowered with these changes.
A lot depends on how much damage Raven, 6 x torp launchers and one target painter do. If it is close to the 823 dps (before drones) that has been quoted, then the Raven is going to be very powerful. And, in my opinion, a fair match against virtually any Tier 1 or Tier 2 Battleship.
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Lrrp
Minmatar Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.10.15 14:21:00 -
[168]
You know, instead of screwing around nerfing the torp, why not do like the heavy missile change and develope a "Assault" torpedo. That way mission runners have their tried and true torps while pvp'ers will have a new weapon to play around with.
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dAn melax
Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.10.15 16:54:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Lrrp You know, instead of screwing around nerfing the torp, why not do like the heavy missile change and develope a "Assault" torpedo. That way mission runners have their tried and true torps while pvp'ers will have a new weapon to play around with.
Torps should be assault cruise missiles ;D Play Hard. Go Pro. |
Imiarr Timshae
Roid Vandals Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:39:00 -
[170]
Apologies, this is going to be the most crude post I've made to date :
Stop fu*king about with balance!
-Imiarr- |
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KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2007.10.15 18:05:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Qui Shon Edited by: Qui Shon on 15/10/2007 09:57:40 The missile guide lets you set explosion velocity, sig radius and so forth with the slider screens, but unfortunately not weapon stats in the chart screen. The exp radius slider only goes up to 500 though, and the new torps will have 530.
Yeah, but the guided skill doesnt work for torps. Torps plain stink, because some skills and implants dont work for them.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.15 18:10:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Jasai Kameron Edited by: Jasai Kameron on 15/10/2007 13:13:38
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Jasai Kameron
Okay, I checked it. Blasterthron with 2 1600mm rolled tungsten and 3 x trimarks = 969 m/s with a named MWD. Raven with a named microwarp drive = 1028 m/s. Obviously it will be even better if you can fit the T2 MWD on the Raven. No idea how feasible that is.
Why will it be dead quick? I assume you'd fit propulsion, painter, warp disruptor, right? That leaves three mid slots for tank and 2-3 lo slots for tank. So you can fit 1 booster, 2 x Invulnerability fields, and a few PDUs. You can even use your rig slots for tank if you like.
you are not quite right. you gonna die quick fighting a plated neutron mega with a 2-3slot tank without remmoterep support.
Yes, but the Megathron will die quickly fighting a 1000 dps Raven. The question is who dies first.
So - I put together a Raven with max skills, 1 x Large Shield Extender, 2 x Invulnerability Field, 1 x PDS, 1 x Damage Control (and 3 x BCU) and 3 x Core Defence Field Extender. (I also fitted 6 x Siege Launchers, 2 x named nosf, 1 x Quad MWD, 1 x Warp Disruptor and 1 x named target painter).
I got 99,181 effective hp, taking resistances into account.
A Neutron Plated Mega with 2 x Plates, 1 x EAN, 1 x DC, 3 x trimarks equals 105,047 effective hp. However the Megathron has no shield recharge. I believe the Raven above is recharging about 83 hp/ sec, so if the fight lasts a minute it will have an extra 4,980 hp, which brings them practically level.
Of course, the Megathron is doing more dps by 150 odd dps, so I guess it comes down to two things - capacitor and how much damage the Raven can do to the Mega on the approach - as well as the really crucial issue, which is that the Raven is the faster ship with these setups and can control range.
I'm afraid this was all done in EFT (using T2 gear unless otherwise stated). I can post the full setups for flaming if needed. I realise that it's all very hypothetical. All I'm trying to say is that it's not as simple as "The Raven is going to get pwned against a Blasterthron", because, quite simply, it's a lot more complicated than that.
Edited: I forgot to add that the Raven can choose damage type. If he uses explosive torps the Blasterthron's going to be having a very bad day.
Also I know most people will fit an active tank on a Raven, and I think that would work well, too. However, it was easiest to compare an hp tank, since that's what the Megathron was using. As you can see, the hp tanks are very comparable.
i did alot of fight against my mates neutron plate tron. it always comes down to range. if i get webbed i'm dead if i manage to kite hes dead. the torp change wont change much except that both ships will go down faster while caught in the opposites optimal:9 anyway hope to get some interesting fights with the new torps:)
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Miss Smiley
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Posted - 2007.10.15 20:25:00 -
[173]
Edited by: Miss Smiley on 15/10/2007 20:27:08
Originally by: Lrrp You know, instead of screwing around nerfing the torp, why not do like the heavy missile change and develope a "Assault" torpedo. That way mission runners have their tried and true torps while pvp'ers will have a new weapon to play around with.
This would be a great idea and it would keep the mission runners happy, but ... I am sure people would complain that caldari are not only mission kings, but that they can viably solo pvp now. Then whine until shields get nerfed, we are forced to use cap for all missiles, and eventually instigate a tracking speed for all missiles as well. MUST NERF MORE! cry's is all that will happen. So I guess this will be an all out nerf, or not happen at all because to find an alternative that helps multiple people (mission runners & pvp'rs) will only **** off others even more.
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Haradgrim
Caldari The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2007.10.15 20:33:00 -
[174]
I will need to try it this way before I can give a true reaction but my first reaction is this just plain owns. Finally Caldari will have a short range gank ship. If I had to guess, I think that we will see some very interesting setups over the next few months if this change stays in. --
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Haradgrim
Caldari The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2007.10.15 20:37:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Lrrp You know, instead of screwing around nerfing the torp, why not do like the heavy missile change and develope a "Assault" torpedo. That way mission runners have their tried and true torps while pvp'ers will have a new weapon to play around with.
Heavy Missiles + 1 tier = cruise missiles Assault Missiles + 1 tier = Torpedos
This change actually brings Torpedos inline with their lower tier analogues.
Besides, its not like cruise missiles aren't extremely viable for mission running (read: almost exactly the same), I personally run missions with torps and I see this change as a great thing (and not neccessarily the end of my lvl 4 running with torps).
--
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Danjira Ryuujin
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Posted - 2007.10.15 20:44:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Sneer Quen as far as bs duel tanking and using mwd in bs how long ? 2 min or less relax and go back from clouds AC minmatar setup has 4-5 km optimal and 20 fallof and it needs ab/mwd to reach target raven has 30 km+ and also needs one mid slot / TP with this slot used it is more or less 30 km optimal and minnie ???? in order to give full dmg it needs to go to 5 km !!!!
it is a caldari buff for me
Where does this 30km figure come from? torpedos have a speed of 1750ms, and a flight time of 6 seconds. Thats 10.5 kilometers ignoring the fact that missiles dont hit max velocity isntantaneously, and assuming the target is stationary. Even if you're including the ravens velocity bonus at bs 5, range is under 20km. People seriously need to stop including ship and skill bonuses when comparing torpedo range to base blaster/autocannon optimal. Then realize that that guns shoot further than optimal whereas torps do no damage at their on paper max range.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2007.10.15 21:00:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin
Originally by: Sneer Quen as far as bs duel tanking and using mwd in bs how long ? 2 min or less relax and go back from clouds AC minmatar setup has 4-5 km optimal and 20 fallof and it needs ab/mwd to reach target raven has 30 km+ and also needs one mid slot / TP with this slot used it is more or less 30 km optimal and minnie ???? in order to give full dmg it needs to go to 5 km !!!!
it is a caldari buff for me
Where does this 30km figure come from? torpedos have a speed of 1750ms, and a flight time of 6 seconds. Thats 10.5 kilometers ignoring the fact that missiles dont hit max velocity isntantaneously, and assuming the target is stationary. Even if you're including the ravens velocity bonus at bs 5, range is under 20km. People seriously need to stop including ship and skill bonuses when comparing torpedo range to base blaster/autocannon optimal. Then realize that that guns shoot further than optimal whereas torps do no damage at their on paper max range.
Have you ever heard of something called skills? I would suggest that you give a good read in the description of missile bombardment and missile projection skills...
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"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.15 21:05:00 -
[178]
Quote: Where does this 30km figure come from? torpedos have a speed of 1750ms, and a flight time of 6 seconds.
It comes from maths. Base speed of 1.5 km/s and base ToF 6 seconds gives base range 9 km. Multiply 9 by 1.5¦ to account for Missile Projection, Missile Bombardment and Raven bonus. Gives 30.375 km.
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.15 21:12:00 -
[179]
Hmmm.
You ask where 30 km comes from. We tell you about basic arithmetic. What point, exactly, have we missed?
In any case, all skills at IV gives 24.7 km range. That isn't under 20 km, either...
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Spitzerr
Racketeers
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Posted - 2007.10.15 21:18:00 -
[180]
Very nice.. I would love to see a 6sec ROF on a siege launcher. Watch out Blasterthron here comes the Torpraven _______________________________________________
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