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Dragon Lord Caldari InQuest Ascension R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.13 09:42:00 - [1] Looks like they have boosted the rof on siege missile launchers by 33% however they have also increased explosive radius and reduced flight time to 6s instead of 30, so that a 80% range nerf. Guess all raven setups using torps will have to use mwd's from now one, even Javs dont go past 60kms. On the up side a gank raven with drones now gets over 1000dps with faction torps if its within 30kms. So torps + pve will soon be a thing of the past
Minmatar Alt Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.13 09:57:00 - [2] That is if it even makes it to tranquility, after all there are alot of mission running carebears who like to only use the so called "best" which is the torp raven. So I expect to see alot of whining going on about this, so I wouldnt hold my breath to see if this goes through. But it does sound like a fun little Nerf/Buff, sounds like Ravens will now actually get to see some nice PVP action IF it does go through. ---My Unjacked Sig Space---Can't Touch This Does Hammer Slide--- A Veldspar dies every 2 minutes, Donate money to me to help fund my rightous cause to stop further Veldspar Massacres.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:00:00 - [3] This is a huge boost to caldari pvp, and exactly what the caldari pvp community has been asking for. Now torps do excellent short ranged dps. As for the inevitable whining that will come from the mission running community. Too bad, the cruise raven is still probably better than every other ship for PvE.
MuffinsRevenger EmpiresMod Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:16:00 - [4] Sweet! we get a close range brick! glhf geting in range :D
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:17:00 - [5] I wonder if this is the first step towards a Khanid MKII BS...
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:17:00 - [6] Edited by: James Lyrus on 13/10/2007 10:16:55 Originally by: Gamesguy This is a huge boost to caldari pvp, and exactly what the caldari pvp community has been asking for. Now torps do excellent short ranged dps. As for the inevitable whining that will come from the mission running community. Too bad, the cruise raven is still probably better than every other ship for PvE. Yes. I am very happy. I want to pewpew in my raven. And I can still lock and load cruises, for going ratting. Good all round. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:18:00 - [7] Originally by: MuffinsRevenger Sweet! we get a close range brick! glhf geting in range :D Yeah, because it's not like the other short range weapon toting gankmonsters have to fit a MWD or anything. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
dAn melax Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:18:00 - [8] hmm interesting, but if it'll be so close and ravens'll need the mwd to get in range, we'll be having a small problem with fitting xD due to lack of PG and CU for the mwd Play Hard. Go Pro.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:26:00 - [9] 3 x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I = +52% range isn't it funny how some people advocate both GTC<=>ISK trades and EVE being superior due to its cruelty and costly losses, when they use the former to circumvent the latter?
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:30:00 - [10] Originally by: Lazuran 3 x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I = +52% range Which, incidentally, allows the raven to outdamage pulse geddons loading scorch and still hit to 50km range.

Teli San	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:36:00 - [11] The 33% ROF boost is WAAAAAAAAAAAY too powerfull, it will outdamage any other close range BS with capless/tracking less weapons. NO!
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:38:00 - [12] Very interesting. I like it!
BornePassive	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:39:00 - [13] Edited by: BornePassive on 13/10/2007 10:47:19 I use torps for missioning, i would be unhappy with this change as cruise always get popped by defendors on half the missions, dont nerf range, but the rof can stay :D caldari need a boost anyways i would prob say a 25-30% rofl bonus as amarr only have the geddon as the highest source of dps ingame, they need looking at first.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:41:00 - [14] If they had just cut the flight time by 50% or even 66%, all would have been well. But this is over the top :( There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:42:00 - [15] This once again calls for a anti-missile ew. Postcount: 610691 [02:40:22] <elmickers> if you're caldari in a fleet fight, bring a corp
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:43:00 - [16] Copied this from SHC, it looks to be ok, I think the need for a painter would balance out the capless part. Numbers (fully skilled, with a 3x bcs raven) : - Before : T1 torps = 619 dps to 127km @ 2813m/s, 400m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity CN torps = 711 dps to 127km @ 2813m/s, 400m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity Jav torps = 523 dps to 158km @ 8438m/s, 400m exp radius 750m/s exp velocity Rage torps = 743 dps to 34km @ 2250m/s, 600m exp radius 150m/s exp velocity - After : T1 torps = 823 dps to 30km @ 3375m/s, 530m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity CN torps = 946 dps to 30km @ 3375m/s, 530m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity Jav torps = 696 dps to 158km @ 8438m/s, 400m exp radius 750m/s exp velocity Rage torps = 988 dps to 34km @ 2250m/s, 600m exp radius 150m/s exp velocity This is before drones are taken into account.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:44:00 - [17] Edited by: Gamesguy on 13/10/2007 10:45:32 Originally by: BornePassive I use torps for missioning, i would be unhappy with this change as cruise always get popped by defendors on half the missions, dont nerf range, but the rof can stay :D caldari need a boost anyways Yes, let caldari do 1k DPS out to 100km with a weapon that uses no cap. Howabout we give pulse lasers 200km range instead? Originally by: Leandro Salazar If they had just cut the flight time by 50% or even 66%, all would have been well. But this is over the top :( You sir prove every sterotype about the typical caldari whiner who only wants caldari online.
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:50:00 - [18] I still don't get it who had a problem whit torps ? And why the hell do they need to be changed ? Originally by: CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz Originally by: CCP Oveur To the gankmobile!
Karl BookMarx	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:51:00 - [19] Originally by: Gamesguy Copied this from SHC, it looks to be ok, I think the need for a painter would balance out the capless part. Numbers (fully skilled, with a 3x bcs raven) : - Before : T1 torps = 619 dps to 127km @ 2813m/s, 400m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity CN torps = 711 dps to 127km @ 2813m/s, 400m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity Jav torps = 523 dps to 158km @ 8438m/s, 400m exp radius 750m/s exp velocity Rage torps = 743 dps to 34km @ 2250m/s, 600m exp radius 150m/s exp velocity - After : T1 torps = 823 dps to 30km @ 3375m/s, 530m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity CN torps = 946 dps to 30km @ 3375m/s, 530m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity Jav torps = 696 dps to 158km @ 8438m/s, 400m exp radius 750m/s exp velocity Rage torps = 988 dps to 34km @ 2250m/s, 600m exp radius 150m/s exp velocity This is before drones are taken into account. Is this with 3x BCU t2 or without?
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:53:00 - [20] With 3 bcu ofc.

Karl BookMarx	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:55:00 - [21] You will need a painter to do full damage to bs. However, finally it has the damage which justifies the big explosion animation.
Solant Minmatar Ventis Secundis R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:56:00 - [22] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Lazuran 3 x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I = +52% range Which, incidentally, allows the raven to outdamage pulse geddons loading scorch and still hit to 50km range. ever watched a torpedo travel 50km? yeah. id say its fine like this. at least we have an option, now.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:58:00 - [23] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Leandro Salazar If they had just cut the flight time by 50% or even 66%, all would have been well. But this is over the top :( You sir prove every sterotype about the typical caldari whiner who only wants caldari online. You sir prove every stereotype about the typical PvPer that really has no clue about anything but gank gank gank, and is horribly jealous of mission runners using their time to make isk rather than to spoil the gaming experience of others... I actually hardly fly Caldari at all (except CNR in a handful of missions that my Abaddon sucks at). Still I don't see the point to this change. It is not like anyone has been whining about torps, so where did they see something that needed fixing beyond the admittedly way too long flight time? There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:59:00 - [24] Originally by: Solant Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Lazuran 3 x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I = +52% range Which, incidentally, allows the raven to outdamage pulse geddons loading scorch and still hit to 50km range. ever watched a torpedo travel 50km? yeah. id say its fine like this. at least we have an option, now. 10 seconds to hit on a raven with 3 velocity rigs, which isnt slow at all. But ya, I agree its a great change, might use it instead of my geddon for small gangs now.
Solant Minmatar Ventis Secundis R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:00:00 - [25] Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 13/10/2007 10:45:32 Originally by: BornePassive I use torps for missioning, i would be unhappy with this change as cruise always get popped by defendors on half the missions, dont nerf range, but the rof can stay :D caldari need a boost anyways Yes, let caldari do 1k DPS out to 100km with a weapon that uses no cap. Howabout we give pulse lasers 200km range instead? Originally by: Leandro Salazar If they had just cut the flight time by 50% or even 66%, all would have been well. But this is over the top :( You sir prove every sterotype about the typical caldari whiner who only wants caldari online. please show me how you're going to reach ranges of 100km with the new torps. id love to see your setup for hitting at 100km. also, keep in mind 1kdps includes drone damage.. which is not going to be at 100km. maybe if youd stop jumping on the 'omg' bandwagon and read the real info you would be able to present a valid argument instead of just spreading propoganda because youre afraid of caldari actually holding their own in pvp. I think everyone is overlooking the fact that using torps at anything above 20-30km in any form of pvp other than fleet battles is going to be just as useless as trying to solo kill someone in your drake from the same range. not only do they have a large delay before torps will even reach them, they also several minutes to escape, what with no fear of scramble/webs.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:01:00 - [26] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Leandro Salazar If they had just cut the flight time by 50% or even 66%, all would have been well. But this is over the top :( You sir prove every sterotype about the typical caldari whiner who only wants caldari online. You sir prove every stereotype about the typical PvPer that really has no clue about anything but gank gank gank, and is horribly jealous of mission runners using their time to make isk rather than to spoil the gaming experience of others... I actually hardly fly Caldari at all (except CNR in a handful of missions that my Abaddon sucks at). Still I don't see the point to this change. It is not like anyone has been whining about torps, so where did they see something that needed fixing beyond the admittedly way too long flight time? LOL, I fly amarr for pvp and caldari for pve, I dont mind using cruise missiles to npc, its still faster than a geddon. You're just used to the uber pwn mobile that is the raven for pve, a little balance is never a bad thing. And yes, people were constantly whining to get more short range dps for caldari on the bs level, and now they have it, about time I'd say.
Solant Minmatar Ventis Secundis R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:03:00 - [27] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Solant Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Lazuran 3 x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I = +52% range Which, incidentally, allows the raven to outdamage pulse geddons loading scorch and still hit to 50km range. ever watched a torpedo travel 50km? yeah. id say its fine like this. at least we have an option, now. 10 seconds to hit on a raven with 3 velocity rigs, which isnt slow at all. But ya, I agree its a great change, might use it instead of my geddon for small gangs now. yeah, so what? who the hell is going to put 3 velocity rigs on their raven? hypothetically, yes, you could do that, but you'd be wasting money and probably screwing yourself in the long run. IMO using all 3 of your rig slots on the same mod, velocity for missiles, is an extremely bad idea and will only serve your ship in an extreme niche role. what you're going to see develop as a new trend in caldari pvp is ravens with tackle setups and mwd's.. and a much weaker tank.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Solant Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 13/10/2007 10:45:32 Originally by: BornePassive I use torps for missioning, i would be unhappy with this change as cruise always get popped by defendors on half the missions, dont nerf range, but the rof can stay :D caldari need a boost anyways Yes, let caldari do 1k DPS out to 100km with a weapon that uses no cap. Howabout we give pulse lasers 200km range instead? Originally by: Leandro Salazar If they had just cut the flight time by 50% or even 66%, all would have been well. But this is over the top :( You sir prove every sterotype about the typical caldari whiner who only wants caldari online. please show me how you're going to reach ranges of 100km with the new torps. id love to see your setup for hitting at 100km. also, keep in mind 1kdps includes drone damage.. which is not going to be at 100km. maybe if youd stop jumping on the 'omg' bandwagon and read the real info you would be able to present a valid argument instead of just spreading propoganda because youre afraid of caldari actually holding their own in pvp. I think everyone is overlooking the fact that using torps at anything above 20-30km in any form of pvp other than fleet battles is going to be just as useless as trying to solo kill someone in your drake from the same range. not only do they have a large delay before torps will even reach them, they also several minutes to escape, what with no fear of scramble/webs. Are you blind or something? In your very own quoted post you can see I was replying to the guy who wanted torps to retain its old range(ie 100 km) and the new damage No one is gonna use torps for sniper fleets, thats what the rokh is for. But the new raven will be an excellent gang DPS ship for medium sized gangs.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:07:00 - [29] Originally by: Solant Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Solant Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Lazuran 3 x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I = +52% range Which, incidentally, allows the raven to outdamage pulse geddons loading scorch and still hit to 50km range. ever watched a torpedo travel 50km? yeah. id say its fine like this. at least we have an option, now. 10 seconds to hit on a raven with 3 velocity rigs, which isnt slow at all. But ya, I agree its a great change, might use it instead of my geddon for small gangs now. yeah, so what? who the hell is going to put 3 velocity rigs on their raven? hypothetically, yes, you could do that, but you'd be wasting money and probably screwing yourself in the long run. IMO using all 3 of your rig slots on the same mod, velocity for missiles, is an extremely bad idea and will only serve your ship in an extreme niche role. what you're going to see develop as a new trend in caldari pvp is ravens with tackle setups and mwd's.. and a much weaker tank. I am. Velocity rigs are dirt cheap, so its not a waste of money at all. And screw myself in the long run? What else am I gonna put in my 3 rig slots that cost 30mil total? You act like megathrons, hyperions, geddons, tempests, etc all have a choice in their role or something. Leave the tackling to the inties and fit mwd+painter+4 damps(or TDs if damps are severely nerfed), or you can go with 4 mid slot tank. The MWD has never been optional in 0.0, ever.
Solant Minmatar Ventis Secundis R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:07:00 - [30] Quote: Are you blind or something? In your very own quoted post you can see I was replying to the guy who wanted torps to retain its old range(ie 100 km) and the new damage No one is gonna use torps for sniper fleets, thats what the rokh is for. But the new raven will be an excellent gang DPS ship for medium sized gangs. No, he really didn't say that at all. What he did say, was that the range nerf was too much. He didn't say anything about damage, nor did he suggest the damage stay in its current state and the range as well. All he did was complain about the range nerf. You took his words and made an assumption, because you wanted to post something inflammatory.

Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:43:00 - [31] Originally by: Tassi This change is good, everyone who thinks otherwise needs to buy new brain. So everyone who does not play the game the way you deem the only rightful one needs to buy a new brain? There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:44:00 - [32] Originally by: Solant No, but I dislike people spreading misinformation and not looking at the whole picture for the sake of their argument. Makes me feel like I'm watching CNN. Misinformation? What misinformation? Quote: Yes, well, its stupid to say that MWD is not an option in 0.0 just because Triumvirate uses them on ravens in fleet ops. Tell me I'm wrong, cause I dont recall fitting a MWD on every ship I fly in 0.0 (including ravens), and I haven't done so bad. My point was, now ravens have a real need for mwd/close engagements. I've never had real problems keeping up in a raven, if you have your wits about you and arent just following ts orders like a zombie its not actually that bad. We dont fly ravens for fleet, thats a kickable offense. Its not about keeping up, its about mwding out of bubbles, without it you just die, its pretty simple.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:46:00 - [33] The funny thing about raven and mwd is that... siege & mwd actually do fit. When you have to fit 2 pg mods just to fit "standard fleet setup" come back. We are comparing to geddon alot, how about mega beams & mwd? Or even tachyons as downgrading isn't real option(lol @ cruise, lol @ dual heavy beams). For some reason cruise missiles use less pg/cpu while beeing long range as opposed to guns. Anyway, maybe minmatar training wasn't that bad idea... because new typhoon will be funny.
Tassi The Cruciform The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:49:00 - [34] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Tassi This change is good, everyone who thinks otherwise needs to buy new brain. So everyone who does not play the game the way you deem the only rightful one needs to buy a new brain? YES The Cruciform recruitment
Shaemell Buttleson Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:54:00 - [35] With Rockets and HAM's being short range it makes sence that the other "unguided" missile was bought more in line like them. I doubt now I'll be ever changing from Cruise to Torps for mission running now PvP will be a different matter though as the Raven is great at spitting out pain and tanking alot of it as well. snip Do not use your signature to troll or insult other EVE players even if the little dweebs deserve it! -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected])
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:03:00 - [36] Edited by: Shadowsword on 13/10/2007 12:05:28 30km effective range for the Raven is still way better than what blasterthrons and autopests can do at those ranges, and even pulse geddons have their DPS seriously degraded over 20km. So you'll need a target painter? Fine, it will replace the web that gunships need. In short, don't complain, caldari users, you still have it better than the others on the pve side, and for pvp you can really get ganky now. You'll still suck at solo pvp, but that's not new... ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Solant Minmatar Ventis Secundis R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:05:00 - [37] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Solant No, but I dislike people spreading misinformation and not looking at the whole picture for the sake of their argument. Makes me feel like I'm watching CNN. Misinformation? What misinformation? I dunno, comparing torps to medium range turrets and completely neglecting the fact that they are two vastly different forms of damage. Like saying ravens are going to outdamage geddons.. thats fine, you can say that if you want, but there are a lot of variables that make it completely silly to just say. Its the kind of thing that makes irrational people just instantly believe you and then start massive whine posts and flamewars because now they are "sure" that geddons are outclassed by ravens. etc,etc, etc, forum madness ensues. over what? misinformation. assumptions. untested content. has anyone actually looked into what kind of realistic damage these new torps are going to do against various classes of ships? posting DPS stats on paper, assuming full skills... blah. all this is going to do is give people an incorrect impression of what the new torps are going to be. somehow I dont think they are going to straight up dole out 1000dps, myself. regardless, I dont even see why we are bothering to argue at this point seeing as we agree in principle- this is a good change.
Solant Minmatar Ventis Secundis R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:06:00 - [38] Originally by: Shadowsword 30km effective range it's still way better than what blasterthrons and autopests can do at those ranges, and even pulse geddons have their DPS seriously degraded over 20km. So you'll need a target painter? Fine, it will replace the web that gunships need. In short, don't complain, caldari users, you still have it better than the others one the pve side, and for pvp you can really get ganky now. You'll still suck at solo pvp, but that's not new... 30km should be about right for a geddon or tempest to close range ... youll probablytake a volley of torps in the process but you will get there, and ravens go down pretty quick when theyre set up with torps..
Zekspir Gens Pontus Euxin	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:11:00 - [39] Edited by: Zekspir on 13/10/2007 12:14:27 . . . Ty OP for pointing out these changes . . . I missed them in my runthrough on the test server. IMO a long awaited change for the better . . . and certainly one that will let slip the forum whines (to paraphrase a long deceased someone ). Both a boost and nerf, pvp and pve-wise, but one that will put the caldari missile users back in the pvp game. Before the "OMG pwnmobile overpowered WTH " etc. start spewing on the threads, stop for a moment and think about it. IF you fly Caldari ships (and this change affect us caldari mostly) you must know that our tank will go out the window in order to fit the Ravens for solo-pvp. Mid-size gang pvp will not be affected and remain as is now - a tackler allows a Raven to maximise damage without gimping the tank . . .actually any BS user, regardless of race can fit pretty much whatever he/she wants in a gang. And on the other side of the gun, if you are solo, doesn`t matter what you fit if you encounter a gang . . . can you say gang-bang ? And don`t even start with the "you Caldari can choose damage type" and all that crap . . . fly a Raven in a 1vs1 or 1vs2 and see how that helps ya . . . before you can determine the best damage type, you will have wasted soo much time it will be too late. Plus, more missile types = less numbers of each missile/torp and less cap boosters. Uh, and can you say "no FoF torps" before the "caldari can use FoF missiles if jammed" rant ? Simply put, will do as the other races do - maximise the gank to kill the other before your inadequate tank breaks. Break him before he breaks you. And this ROF change will allow to overcome the shortcomings of the torps - flight time and below average DPS. It will somewhat hurt the pve-players, yet the cruise missile are more than adequate . . . you can still pve with ease, it will just take a bit longer. I can happily live with that. As an interesting side-effect . . . t2 torp launchers will be again very sought after, since the range and explosion radius nerf of the t1 torps will make the t2 torps very attractive again, for those users who don`t want to waste a slot for the MWD and/or TP . . . Uh, I also smell some fitting issues with the t2 siege/MWD/lots of BCU combo, plus the tank problems, but since the rigs I bet will see some very creative load-outs . . . can`t wait to test some myself :D Caldari back in the gank game . . . good news ------------------------------------------------------ . . . File not found. Should I fake it ? (Y/N) . . .
Zekspir Gens Pontus Euxin	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:13:00 - [40] Edited by: Zekspir on 13/10/2007 12:14:06 Double post ------------------------------------------------------ . . . File not found. Should I fake it ? (Y/N) . . .

Hairtrigger Sanguine Legion	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:14:00 - [41] well im lookin forward to slappin 5 DG seige on a widow Bet they wont be so bad on the golem as well now
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:18:00 - [42] Edited by: Sokratesz on 13/10/2007 12:19:55 oops nvm. Paradox V2.0 is recruiting!
Dragon Lord Caldari InQuest Ascension R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:18:00 - [43] Originally by: Hairtrigger well im lookin forward to slappin 5 DG seige on a widow Bet they wont be so bad on the golem as well now Nah try t2 siege and javs on the golem and it will pwn big time
HEINZ ZERO PsyCorp INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:26:00 - [44] nice change only thing is that my range with standard Torps should be 24,696 m but it¦s only ~21 km (acceleration time) now waiting for the Khanid Apoc
dAn melax Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:26:00 - [45] oh damn I've missed the fact that torp has bigger explo radius now ... hmm maybe a gruided prec skill will be aplying to torps too, dont you think that would be awesome? ;D Play Hard. Go Pro.
Dragon Lord Caldari InQuest Ascension R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:32:00 - [46] Edited by: Dragon Lord on 13/10/2007 12:32:03 Originally by: dAn melax oh damn I've missed the fact that torp has bigger explo radius now ... hmm maybe a gruided prec skill will be aplying to torps too, dont you think that would be awesome? ;D yeh but way overpowered, jave torps still have 400m exp radius though and there as fast as cruise missiles good range on them 2, 130km+
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:42:00 - [47] Interesting. Have to look at numbers before I start ranting. Wonder how 'old' CN siege launchers with 3x CN BCU with CN ammo compare against 'new' javelin torps in T2 launchers with 3x CN BCU. By initial impression without doing the math the theoretical dps seem to be roughly in the same ballpark (withing approx 5% if I would guestimate). It just might work out alright at the end with missionrunners just switching to t2 launchers and javelins again. Especially taking into account 33% RoF gain in 'new' launchers.
Dragon Lord Caldari InQuest Ascension R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:49:00 - [48] Originally by: Carniflex Interesting. Have to look at numbers before I start ranting. Wonder how 'old' CN siege launchers with 3x CN BCU with CN ammo compare against 'new' javelin torps in T2 launchers with 3x CN BCU. By initial impression without doing the math the theoretical dps seem to be roughly in the same ballpark (withing approx 5% if I would guestimate). It just might work out alright at the end with missionrunners just switching to t2 launchers and javelins again. Especially taking into account 33% RoF gain in 'new' launchers. Ok before with 7 dread siege and faction cn torps i got 7s rof and 984dmg per torp so 984dps. I got over 1000 myself because i had a few officer siege on. After with javs and torp spec lvl1 i get 722dmg per torp and 5.88s rof so thats 860dps with maxed torp spec i belive the rof is 5.42s please correct me if im wrong, so 932dps, so its pretty close, also remember that javs travel ALOT faster so less defenders will hit. Thats on my pimped cnr but the comparison should be the same for any raven or cnr setup.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.13 13:14:00 - [49] Edited by: Setana Manoro on 13/10/2007 13:15:18 Originally by: Solant Originally by: Gamesguy And torps dont use cap, whats your point? Defender missiles? You really enjoy grasping at straws dont you? No, but I dislike people spreading misinformation and not looking at the whole picture for the sake of their argument. Makes me feel like I'm watching CNN. Quote: Oh please, you started the original flame with the me not flying raven comment. You reap what you sow. Yes, well, its stupid to say that MWD is not an option in 0.0 just because Triumvirate uses them on ravens in fleet ops. Tell me I'm wrong, cause I dont recall fitting a MWD on every ship I fly in 0.0 (including ravens), and I haven't done so bad. My point was, now ravens have a real need for mwd/close engagements. I've never had real problems keeping up in a raven, if you have your wits about you and arent just following ts orders like a zombie its not actually that bad. Bullcrap. If you get in a dictor bubble at 50km from the gate, watch as your gang m8s can reach the gate in under 1 min, while you take 10 minutes to reach it. That is one of the reasons you fit a MWD in 0.0, ALWAYS fit one. I've been in alliances where you if you didn't have a MWD fitted - no matter what ship you were in, you would be sent back home. I'm not neutral in RAGOON vs BOB, I just dislike both sides. :)
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.13 13:23:00 - [50] Originally by: Tassi Nice quote pyramid. This change is good, everyone who thinks otherwise needs to buy new brain. That is a stupid comment to make when you fly just 1 race. I fly gankageddons, gank neutron mega's, gank ravens, and 800mm ac pests. While there was a real need to boost Caldari short-range pvp, my pure amarr character is livid, as he is restricted to no mwd/active tank and just 2 types of damage and for that he gets 1200 dps instead of the raven's 1000 and no tracking issues. My Gallente character is a bit jelous that the Raven got buffed. My minnie char just realised that he cannot fly his ac-pest against a raven with a reasonably good character - unless he uses ECM drones or something like that. Overall, i'm happy i will take my Raven out for a spin - i was already doing 900 dps with it on a close range torp setup, but it feels like a slap in the face for Amarr and Minnie ppl - except for the nano-phoon users that now deal more dps. I'm not neutral in RAGOON vs BOB, I just dislike both sides. :)

Matyae Clumsy Dummy Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.10.13 13:46:00 - [51] Edited by: Matyae on 13/10/2007 13:52:02 Edit : Nevermind, I'm totally wrong.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.10.13 13:48:00 - [52] Originally by: Gamesguy Numbers (fully skilled, with a 3x bcs raven) : - Before : T1 torps = 619 dps to 127km @ 2813m/s, 400m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity CN torps = 711 dps to 127km @ 2813m/s, 400m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity Jav torps = 523 dps to 158km @ 8438m/s, 400m exp radius 750m/s exp velocity Rage torps = 743 dps to 34km @ 2250m/s, 600m exp radius 150m/s exp velocity - After : T1 torps = 823 dps to 30km @ 3375m/s, 530m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity CN torps = 946 dps to 30km @ 3375m/s, 530m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity Jav torps = 696 dps to 158km @ 8438m/s, 400m exp radius 750m/s exp velocity Rage torps = 988 dps to 34km @ 2250m/s, 600m exp radius 150m/s exp velocity This is before drones are taken into account. Regluar Raven, 4x CN BCU, 6x CN launchers with CN ammo is 572 dps to 253 km (249 km target cap) - CN Cruise 769 dps to 127 km - CN Torpedo (722 dps with 3x CN BCU thats more common on torpedoes) Comparing realistic 'old' CN fitted siege damage (722 dps) to 'new' Javelin damage (696 dps, mind that this is with T2 BCU's not navy ones) the difference is around 4%, If you fit navy BCU's instead of T2 you will end up actually with better (altho very very slightly) dps than before. In any case it will be better than CN cruise setup with 4 navy BCU's. So for PvE Siege setups it just means that people will siwtch to T2 sieges and start using javelin ammo instead of faction ammo. After looking at those numbers I think this change is good. T2 torpedoes were rather useless before, this change will breath some life into T2 javelin torps (they are also considerably cheaper than faction ammo). It makes CN sieges also considerably cheaper most likely (or people just stop cashing them in for LP) as those missionrunners who care about affectivity will sowitch to T2 launchers from faction. Numbers look a bit different for CNR's ofc, but their relation to each other holds.
Dragon Lord Caldari InQuest Ascension R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.13 13:56:00 - [53] Yeh being trying out t2 siege and javs on my cnr in sisi and the dps might be lower bt im getting through missions faster thanks to the speed of javs compared to normal torps. I did try my old setup but the range on normal torps is so bad that it took me forever to get in range. Basically it means faction torps will only realy be used in pvp and faction launchers i cant see being used at all because of the range nerf. All in all i like the changes and if the Golem does get a 100% dmg bonus its gonna have some major gank
Neena Valdi Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.13 14:01:00 - [54] I guess chinese farmers are already celebrating.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.13 14:06:00 - [55] Originally by: Neena Valdi I guess chinese farmers are already celebrating.
zilllii Squirrel Power	Posted - 2007.10.13 14:12:00 - [56] torpedoes should be extreme short range. if you want range use cruise missiles thats what they are there for. imagine the crying and whining if pulse lasers had 150k range with all ammo types and megabeams up to 300k with all ammotypes. phuuuuleeeees sthu whiners. on another note... make torpedoes have splash damage again pls. gimme bigger letter count in my sig so it wont cut off everything damnit!!!!
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.13 14:30:00 - [57] Originally by: Solant Originally by: Shadowsword 30km effective range it's still way better than what blasterthrons and autopests can do at those ranges, and even pulse geddons have their DPS seriously degraded over 20km. So you'll need a target painter? Fine, it will replace the web that gunships need. In short, don't complain, caldari users, you still have it better than the others one the pve side, and for pvp you can really get ganky now. You'll still suck at solo pvp, but that's not new... 30km should be about right for a geddon or tempest to close range ... youll probablytake a volley of torps in the process but you will get there, and ravens go down pretty quick when theyre set up with torps.. your raven can MWD away, too. True, when soloing they have a paper tank, but doing megathron-like DPS without bothering with a 4km optimal, and without cap, would make the ubersolopwnmobiles if they could sustain a good tank, too. And when in gang, they're going ot be scary ships... ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Hyuuga Veralis Pator Tech School	Posted - 2007.10.13 14:34:00 - [58] 530m explosion radius? So much for torps doing full damage to BSes. -------------- Fulfilling 0.0 Ammo needs since 2 days after being made.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.13 14:36:00 - [59] The increased explosion radius is complete ****.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.13 14:37:00 - [60] 946dps before drones out to 36km. ******* want.

agent apple Applied Eugenics Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:18:00 - [61] If I say I like it, it means it gets nerfed right?
Sanzorz Amarr EVEfan.dk	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:18:00 - [62] Bloody hell..first I gotta change to another ship from my Nightmare and now I can't use Torps in missions either. Urf.. ---
Templer Relleg Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:23:00 - [63] If these changes go onto TQ, im training for T2 siege launchers
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:24:00 - [64] Originally by: Templer Relleg If these changes go onto TQ, im training for T2 siege launchers I concur
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:27:00 - [65] Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 13/10/2007 15:28:24 Originally by: Setana Manoro Bullcrap. If you get in a dictor bubble at 50km from the gate, watch as your gang m8s can reach the gate in under 1 min, while you take 10 minutes to reach it. That is one of the reasons you fit a MWD in 0.0, ALWAYS fit one. I've been in alliances where you if you didn't have a MWD fitted - no matter what ship you were in, you would be sent back home. Scouts? In grid warping to interceptors (which takes less than a minute)? They simply have to do as Amarr have always done (because we simply don't have the grid, cpu, slot or cap to fit an MWD), find a tactical solution to the problem (or an innovative setup) instead of a solution based on fitting an MWD first and then fitting a gimped setup around it. P.S: ...as said before. The Typhoon will really love these changes. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:29:00 - [66] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Scouts? In grid warping to interceptors (which takes less than a minute)? You will know the bubble is there - you will almost always have to go through it anyway. Which is why you ALWAYS fit an MWD. If your ship can't fit one, bring another ship.
Amuko Amarr Happy Little Roid Huggers	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:47:00 - [67] Oh no, only 30km range whilst doing craploads of damage [:\|. Should be half of that, 30km is still pretty insane for a short range weapon.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:47:00 - [68] Originally by: Hoshi Against a standard BS (400m signature radius) it's a 0.6% damage increase due to the increased explosion radius. Only against tier 3 bs are this really a damage increase. This really bothers me. If you're not using a painter it's a straight up nerf. 0.6% damage increase isn't worth the lost range. And if you are using one or two, well your damage increases but then where's your tank? Short range turret boats need webs but most of them armor tank and have no problem fitting one. It is also a far more useful module than a painter. Even for those that shield tank it's not a big issue, webbing is something that they can reasonably leave to gangmates. Gangmates could use painters as well to help the Ravens, or they could fit something that actually helps the whole gang (ie: damps). End result is I won't be using the new torp Raven. I won't run it with painters due to lack of tank at a range where other high damage ships, that have tanks, operate. I won't use it without painters because damage will be lacking at said new range. I won't expect my gangmates to carry painters because **** it, I might as well fly a Mega instead.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:49:00 - [69] Originally by: Incantare This really bothers me. If you're not using a painter it's a straight up nerf. Same for any turret ship shooting a non-webbed target at comparable ranges. It finally gives the huginn and rapier their dual role back.
Centurion1	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:59:00 - [70] Wow typhoon pvp boost! Mmm time to bust out the nuet torp phoon....

iiOs Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:05:00 - [71] why all other close range weapons are better at shooting smaller targets and torps blow? ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
mallina Caldari Sybrite Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:11:00 - [72] They won't even do full damage to a Battleship anyway. I hate to think what they'd do to BCs and Cruisers. It's more of a nerf than a buff. Still, it gives them a little specilisation and will be mean with a Minmatar Recon in gang. ---
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:11:00 - [73] Originally by: Elmicker Same for any turret ship shooting a non-webbed target at comparable ranges. It finally gives the huginn and rapier their dual role back. Originally by: Incantare Short range turret boats need webs but most of them armor tank and have no problem fitting one. It is also a far more useful module than a painter. Even for those that shield tank it's not a big issue, webbing is something that they can reasonably leave to gangmates. In principle I think it's great painters are becomming more useful. It's the way it's being done I disagree with. Ravens will be short range ships that need painters to put out similar dps to other short range ships. Great, I'm just going to use a short range turret ship instead and do without the painter part.
Vitriol17 Distractions	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:14:00 - [74] Could this be some kinda stealth boost to the Bellicose Nah thought not.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:41:00 - [75] At least it'll make the minnie recons more useful Paradox V2.0 is recruiting!
Gwynn Worvan Gallente Fine Art Manufactury	Posted - 2007.10.13 17:52:00 - [76] Right.... I didn¦t want any part of a whine thread but here it is... Firstly, some info. I do not fly a Raven. I don¦t have the skills to do so, and i don¦t want to either. I do however fly a Typhoon, and have been having great fun running missions in it with small gangs. In some ways, this is a boost to my torp Phoon. If i want to PVP, this is awesome. More DPS, short range bruiser, lay the smack down, and such. However, this is a huuuuuge nerf to the usefulness of the Typhoon as a mission runner. And it¦s not even as if it¦s the best ship for it in the first place, i just like it, cause it¦s fun to fly. This change won¦t mean that i have to stop using it, but it will definately mean a change of tactics. Again. Sigh... Why change something that works? Fix stuff that doesn¦t work! (Or, if you really want to, add a "Siege Assault launcher" with +33% ROF and -80% range. Choices, not nerfs please.) ________________________________________________ "A penny saved, is worth two in the bush"
JcJet Caldari RusAviaSpace Stella Polar	Posted - 2007.10.13 18:00:00 - [77] It's good, but why so sudden? Maybe CCP at least give a time for mission runners to train cruises...a few weeks
goodby4u Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 18:10:00 - [78] Damn you!Now i have to train for t2 cruise. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.13 18:10:00 - [79] Originally by: JcJet It's good, but why so sudden? Maybe CCP at least give a time for mission runners to train cruises...a few weeks To be fair, anyone who flies missile ships will have the pre reqs for cruises done. It's only a 5 day skill to use them. Unless of course you mean T2, in which case you have loads of time; still a couple of weeks until Rev 3 is released.
Sanzorz Amarr EVEfan.dk	Posted - 2007.10.13 18:33:00 - [80] Originally by: Gwynn Worvan However, this is a huuuuuge nerf to the usefulness of the Typhoon as a mission runner. And it¦s not even as if it¦s the best ship for it in the first place, i just like it, cause it¦s fun to fly. (Or, if you really want to, add a "Siege Assault launcher" with +33% ROF and -80% range. Choices, not nerfs please.) I largely agree. I myself was sad when I saw the Nightmare changes. It's a nice change, but I like how Nightmare is fitted which is the exact thing on Typhoon. Problem is that a bunch of annoying players want all ships changed to pvp or something and want them all to be efficient. This sucks, because it spoils the fun factor. No room for "I fly the ship because I like" anymore :( As for the torps, then it's a bit sad aswell. Your suggestion is great, because it's the same as Heavy Missiles. If this change is going coming to live, then you're forced to train to T2 launchers and use expensive T2 ammo for long range. I'm not the one who want everything to be bang for the buch fastness in missions and spend money on t2 ammo. T2 ammo belongs in pvp as it gives you an edge. That ain't needed in missions.. ---

Kelbesque Crystalis Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.13 18:40:00 - [81] Well now torps are the large version of HAM's, and cruises are the large version of heavy missiles. The closer range versions always had more DPS. Oddly enough, I think the Typhoon, Bellicose, and minnie recons all just got a buff from this.
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.10.13 18:41:00 - [82] Originally by: iiOs why all other close range weapons are better at shooting smaller targets and torps blow? Rails and Blasters have the same signature resolution. I guess you mean faster targets? Since guided missiles are long range and get a skill bonus vs. smaller ships, they do fine against small targets without the need of a target painter. This is good since the TP wont reach that far, but will have a good effect at close range.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.13 18:52:00 - [83] Originally by: Brodde Dim Originally by: iiOs why all other close range weapons are better at shooting smaller targets and torps blow? Rails and Blasters have the same signature resolution. I guess you mean faster targets? No, they have 400m. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:26:00 - [84] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Brodde Dim Originally by: iiOs why all other close range weapons are better at shooting smaller targets and torps blow? Rails and Blasters have the same signature resolution. I guess you mean faster targets? No, they have 400m. Exactly. Rails have 400m. Blasters have 400m. 400m == 400m. Thats why I said they have the same sig res.
Gavin Darklighter The Burning Orphans Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:34:00 - [85] Overall I like the changes as they are. I wish the changes to torpedo "tracking" had been the other way around though. Something like 80m/s explosion velocity and 320m2 explosion radius would have been awesome. This would make tracking on torps similar to guns in that a moving target takes less damage than a non-moving one. The difference between torps and guns would be that guns will track better at longer ranges and worse at close range, whereas the torps will be able to hit slightly moving targets at ultra close range for full damage, but still barely touch moving targets at max range.
F90OEX	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:39:00 - [86] Watch It will be like the Anti Drake .. Great DPS but crap tank. Torps are fine the way they are on TQ. If your going to be using a MWD + TP and then having to try make a nice shield tank forget about it .. assuming you have the CPU/PG, which I can tell you, you don't.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:39:00 - [87] Originally by: Brodde Dim Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Brodde Dim Originally by: iiOs why all other close range weapons are better at shooting smaller targets and torps blow? Rails and Blasters have the same signature resolution. I guess you mean faster targets? No, they have 400m. Exactly. Rails have 400m. Blasters have 400m. 400m == 400m. Thats why I said they have the same sig res. Yes, and torps already have 530m on sisi. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
dAn melax Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:47:00 - [88] so if its 530 sig radius maybe guided prec skill should affect torps but not with 5% per lvl, cause that would be to awesome xD , but how about 2% per lvl, it's nothing but something :/ Play Hard. Go Pro.
Gavin Darklighter The Burning Orphans Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:50:00 - [89] Originally by: dAn melax so if its 530 sig radius maybe guided prec skill should affect torps but not with 5% per lvl, cause that would be to awesome xD , but how about 2% per lvl, it's nothing but something :/ At 5% per level it would bring the explosion radius down to 397m2. I don't see how that would be a problem. If they don't bring Javelin radius up to 530 base it might be an issue.
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.10.13 20:11:00 - [90] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Brodde Dim Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Brodde Dim Originally by: iiOs why all other close range weapons are better at shooting smaller targets and torps blow? Rails and Blasters have the same signature resolution. I guess you mean faster targets? No, they have 400m. Exactly. Rails have 400m. Blasters have 400m. 400m == 400m. Thats why I said they have the same sig res. Yes, and torps already have 530m on sisi. Well I assume he was comparing long range to short range weapons of the same type. I cant believe you think he compared ALL close range weapons to just torpedoes. And if so, I would think XL guns are worse than torpedoes at hitting small ships. Also, signature resolution of guns is not really the same as explosion radius on missiles, so the comparison would be weak, if you tried comparing that way. So all other close range weapons are not better at shooting smaller targets than their long range counter part. And not all close range weapons are better at hitting small ships than torpedoes. But still, short range turrets generally have better tracking than their long range kind.

Skraeling Shortbus Caldari The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.13 20:49:00 - [91] gank phoon anyone?
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:41:00 - [92] Originally by: Brodde Dim Well I assume he was comparing long range to short range weapons of the same type. I cant believe you think he compared ALL close range weapons to just torpedoes. And if so, I would think XL guns are worse than torpedoes at hitting small ships. I don't know what you mean by XL guns, but battleship turrets are really better at hitting small ships as far as signature radius is concerned (better than the new 530m torps that is). Originally by: Brodde Dim Also, signature resolution of guns is not really the same as explosion radius on missiles, so the comparison would be weak, if you tried comparing that way. In terms of DPS it is the same. Originally by: Brodde Dim And not all close range weapons are better at hitting small ships than torpedoes. As I said before, in terms of sig radius, they are. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Danjira Ryuujin	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:31:00 - [93] Now if they'd only increase cruise velocity by....oh 300%.
royal killer Amarr The Funkalistic SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:45:00 - [94] Originally by: Brodde Dim I wonder if this is the first step towards a Khanid MKII BS... A missile raven with armor tank (+bonuses) now that would be interesting --------------------
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:51:00 - [95] Edited by: Laboratus on 13/10/2007 23:51:47 Cripling nerf to caldari BS pvp and pve. Hope they heavily adjust the numbers... Oh, and this hit's minmatar gank as well... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:01:00 - [96] Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 13/10/2007 23:51:47 Cripling nerf to caldari BS pvp and pve. Hope they heavily adjust the numbers... Oh, and this hit's minmatar gank as well... Please enlighten me how this is a nerf.
Testosterone Bomb Red Ballz	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:05:00 - [97] Edited by: Testosterone Bomb on 14/10/2007 00:06:47 Actually I am fine with this, I have been using a painter on my Typhoon for ages and have no problem with this since it means I can mix and match the damage of Siege and Cruise. And with the Typhoon being a speed demon (for a BS) it works well in gang , solo or fleet. (Skraeling Shortbus - yup a very nice buff to the phoon! ) Another win for the Mini ! Fly Safe
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:09:00 - [98] Originally by: Ogul I don't know what you mean by XL guns, but battleship turrets are really better at hitting small ships as far as signature radius is concerned (better than the new 530m torps that is). With XL I mean eXtra Large. And they have a sig. res. of 1000m. They are close range, but not BS size. Originally by: Brodde Dim And not all close range weapons are better at hitting small ships than torpedoes. Originally by: Ogul As I said before, in terms of sig radius, they are. No. See above. Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Brodde Dim Also, signature resolution of guns is not really the same as explosion radius on missiles, so the comparison would be weak, if you tried comparing that way. In terms of DPS it is the same. Not really. The sig. res. for turrets will be a factor in the probaility to hit, while the explosion radius will give a constant reduction of the damage, wich also can be increased with skills and modules. One is chance based, the other is constant. And given the higher dps of the missiles before calculating penalties, and the much higher volley damage the comparison between turrets and missiles by using sig. res./exp. radius alone isnt accurate. If that comparison was good, you could argue that cruise missiles should have their exp. radius increased from 225m to 400m (after skills), to match long range turrets. And I take it you are sure he didnt mean: "why all other close range weapons are better at shooting smaller targets, compared to the long range version, and torps blow compared to cruise missiles? Wich imho, would make more sense.
Gwynn Worvan Gallente Fine Art Manufactury	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:09:00 - [99] Saying that minmatar EW ships (Bellicose and such) get a boost from this is just silly. The fact that people will have to use them to hit right because of this nerf, does not "boost" them. It just means that now you need yet another ship in the gang, or dual TP¦s on your main ship. No, this is not a minmatar EW boost. (To compare, this would be like making all railguns have vastly lowered efficiency, unless there was a Caldari EW boat in the gang, and calling that a Caldari EW boost) It is a boost to raw DPS, against static, huge (larger than BS apparently) targets. Against pretty much anything else, it is a nerf. And this whole "Gank Phoon" thing.... That is all good and well, if I want to PvP. Which I do not. Not in my shiny Phoon, which I have trained for, for quite a long time. I can use T2 Siege launchers, so sure, I can go use T2 ammo and do the extra DPS. But this change is a bit like going "ooh, I know, let¦s lower the tracking and range of all Blasters by 80% and boost their ROF by 30%... Sure, in some cases it is a DPS boost, but in most cases it just means that people either have to train for a new weapon system, or deal with the fact that they have been nerfed. Which is silly, when you are doing this to a system that works in the first place... Me, I intend to deal with the fact that my weapon system has been nerfed, but this is a nerf. To me, to my ship, and to the few and far between Typhoon fliers out here, this is a nerf. That is all. ________________________________________________ "A penny saved, is worth two in the bush"
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:13:00 - [100] About time ravens got a nerf to PvE. Now they have to use long range weapons(or jav torps) like every other race.

iiOs Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:15:00 - [101] Originally by: Brodde Dim Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Brodde Dim Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Brodde Dim Originally by: iiOs why all other close range weapons are better at shooting smaller targets and torps blow? Rails and Blasters have the same signature resolution. I guess you mean faster targets? No, they have 400m. Exactly. Rails have 400m. Blasters have 400m. 400m == 400m. Thats why I said they have the same sig res. Yes, and torps already have 530m on sisi. Well I assume he was comparing long range to short range weapons of the same type. I cant believe you think he compared ALL close range weapons to just torpedoes. And if so, I would think XL guns are worse than torpedoes at hitting small ships. Also, signature resolution of guns is not really the same as explosion radius on missiles, so the comparison would be weak, if you tried comparing that way. So all other close range weapons are not better at shooting smaller targets than their long range counter part. And not all close range weapons are better at hitting small ships than torpedoes. But still, short range turrets generally have better tracking than their long range kind. byea, XL close range aint good but wtf, do you even play this game? ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:21:00 - [102] Originally by: iiOs byea, XL close range aint good but wtf, do you even play this game? i can fly in my bthron or my ac pest and be 100% safe from small targets, bcaus i can neut them , get into web range and they are gone, now, do same with new torp raven This is different from the old torp raven how?
iiOs Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:23:00 - [103] Edited by: iiOs on 14/10/2007 00:24:03 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: iiOs byea, XL close range aint good but wtf, do you even play this game? i can fly in my bthron or my ac pest and be 100% safe from small targets, bcaus i can neut them , get into web range and they are gone, now, do same with new torp raven This is different from the old torp raven how? old torp raven? old torp raven poped everything below cruisers in 1 volley::( but now its gonna be even worse then old nerfed raven witch atleast had good range, now its gonna be true closerange weapon and its totaly crap for some odd reason, even vs bs unless you fit zilion painters ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:28:00 - [104] Originally by: iiOs Edited by: iiOs on 14/10/2007 00:24:03 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: iiOs byea, XL close range aint good but wtf, do you even play this game? i can fly in my bthron or my ac pest and be 100% safe from small targets, bcaus i can neut them , get into web range and they are gone, now, do same with new torp raven This is different from the old torp raven how? old torp raven? old torp raven poped everything below cruisers in 1 volley::( but now its gonna be even worse then old nerfed raven witch atleast had good range, now its gonna be true closerange weapon and its totaly crap for some odd reason, even vs bs unless you fit zilion painters Its. Called. A. *******. Javelin. Torpedo. The new javelin torp is 3 times faster, do more DPS, shoot further, and have better explosion velocity than the old t1 torp.
iiOs Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:31:00 - [105] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: iiOs Edited by: iiOs on 14/10/2007 00:24:03 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: iiOs byea, XL close range aint good but wtf, do you even play this game? i can fly in my bthron or my ac pest and be 100% safe from small targets, bcaus i can neut them , get into web range and they are gone, now, do same with new torp raven This is different from the old torp raven how? old torp raven? old torp raven poped everything below cruisers in 1 volley::( but now its gonna be even worse then old nerfed raven witch atleast had good range, now its gonna be true closerange weapon and its totaly crap for some odd reason, even vs bs unless you fit zilion painters Its. Called. A. *******. Javelin. Torpedo. The new javelin torp is 3 times faster, do more DPS, shoot further, and have better explosion velocity than the old t1 torp. you realy belive they wont nerf them? again, if things stay the way they are they just havnt looked at them yet, the moment they notice that t2 torps are usefull again, they gonna swing the nerfbat ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:33:00 - [106] Originally by: iiOs Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: iiOs Edited by: iiOs on 14/10/2007 00:24:03 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: iiOs byea, XL close range aint good but wtf, do you even play this game? i can fly in my bthron or my ac pest and be 100% safe from small targets, bcaus i can neut them , get into web range and they are gone, now, do same with new torp raven This is different from the old torp raven how? old torp raven? old torp raven poped everything below cruisers in 1 volley::( but now its gonna be even worse then old nerfed raven witch atleast had good range, now its gonna be true closerange weapon and its totaly crap for some odd reason, even vs bs unless you fit zilion painters Its. Called. A. *******. Javelin. Torpedo. The new javelin torp is 3 times faster, do more DPS, shoot further, and have better explosion velocity than the old t1 torp. you realy belive they wont nerf them? again, if things stay the way they are they just havnt looked at them yet, the moment they notice that t2 torps are usefull again, they gonna swing the nerfbat So you base your entire argument on something that hasnt happened yet and you have no clue whether it will even happen at all. Brilliant argument there.
iiOs Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:40:00 - [107] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: iiOs Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: iiOs Edited by: iiOs on 14/10/2007 00:24:03 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: iiOs byea, XL close range aint good but wtf, do you even play this game? i can fly in my bthron or my ac pest and be 100% safe from small targets, bcaus i can neut them , get into web range and they are gone, now, do same with new torp raven This is different from the old torp raven how? old torp raven? old torp raven poped everything below cruisers in 1 volley::( but now its gonna be even worse then old nerfed raven witch atleast had good range, now its gonna be true closerange weapon and its totaly crap for some odd reason, even vs bs unless you fit zilion painters Its. Called. A. *******. Javelin. Torpedo. The new javelin torp is 3 times faster, do more DPS, shoot further, and have better explosion velocity than the old t1 torp. you realy belive they wont nerf them? again, if things stay the way they are they just havnt looked at them yet, the moment they notice that t2 torps are usefull again, they gonna swing the nerfbat So you base your entire argument on something that hasnt happened yet and you have no clue whether it will even happen at all. Brilliant argument there. and you base your argument on what exactly? something that havnt been released yet? ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.14 01:14:00 - [108] Originally by: iiOs Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: iiOs Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: iiOs Edited by: iiOs on 14/10/2007 00:24:03 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: iiOs byea, XL close range aint good but wtf, do you even play this game? i can fly in my bthron or my ac pest and be 100% safe from small targets, bcaus i can neut them , get into web range and they are gone, now, do same with new torp raven This is different from the old torp raven how? old torp raven? old torp raven poped everything below cruisers in 1 volley::( but now its gonna be even worse then old nerfed raven witch atleast had good range, now its gonna be true closerange weapon and its totaly crap for some odd reason, even vs bs unless you fit zilion painters Its. Called. A. *****. Javelin. Torpedo. The new javelin torp is 3 times faster, do more DPS, shoot further, and have better explosion velocity than the old t1 torp. you realy belive they wont nerf them? again, if things stay the way they are they just havnt looked at them yet, the moment they notice that t2 torps are usefull again, they gonna swing the nerfbat So you base your entire argument on something that hasnt happened yet and you have no clue whether it will even happen at all. Brilliant argument there. and you base your argument on what exactly? something that havnt been released yet? Ya I am, its called a test server** for a reason. So we can give ccp feedback on what we think about the changes, not imaginary changes that only exist in your head.
Altan Demart Minmatar Black Silver	Posted - 2007.10.14 01:35:00 - [109] Hate to read about that, for me, it is a great nerf. I use my Typhoon as a mission runner with a siege fitting. After reading that, I do not know how long it will take to do one mission. Yes I have a AB onboard, but many NPCs orbit at ( 9km * 1,5 for max skill ) 13,5km and further. Would say 60% or more will be out of torp range. Flying after each ship will take a lot of time. So now I need ( with looting and salvaging ) ~ 2 hours for one lvl 4 mission, after that it will be ... do not like to think about that! And do not tell me something about Javelin Torps, if they nerf the normal torps in range, javs will be nerfed too. Maybe even all kinds of torps. And the boost in damage... It is a rate of fire boost, versus a sig nerf, not a damage boost to the torps. Means, I need more ammo to kill the enemy. Altan Demart
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.14 01:39:00 - [110] Originally by: Altan Demart Hate to read about that, for me, it is a great nerf. I use my Typhoon as a mission runner with a siege fitting. After reading that, I do not know how long it will take to do one mission. Yes I have a AB onboard, but many NPCs orbit at ( 9km * 1,5 for max skill ) 13,5km and further. Would say 60% or more will be out of torp range. Flying after each ship will take a lot of time. So now I need ( with looting and salvaging ) ~ 2 hours for one lvl 4 mission, after that it will be ... do not like to think about that! And do not tell me something about Javelin Torps, if they nerf the normal torps in range, javs will be nerfed too. Maybe even all kinds of torps. And the boost in damage... It is a rate of fire boost, versus a sig nerf, not a damage boost to the torps. Means, I need more ammo to kill the enemy. Altan Demart First of all, there are 2 skill modifiers for missile range, it doesnt bode well that you dont even know what skills affect missiles. Torps will have 20km range on the phoon, which fits perfectly with autocannons. Javelins will be nerfed? There has been no indication of it so far, and I would bet the new javelin can still hit to 80. The new torp has exactly the same range as heavy assault missiles, and javelin assaults can hit to 80km(120 on a raven). As for the larger sig, its called a target painter.

Altan Demart Minmatar Black Silver	Posted - 2007.10.14 01:43:00 - [111] you are right, I forgot the +max velocity bonus. Altan Demart
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.14 01:51:00 - [112] Originally by: Altan Demart Edited by: Altan Demart on 14/10/2007 01:49:57 Edited by: Altan Demart on 14/10/2007 01:46:50 Edited by: Altan Demart on 14/10/2007 01:46:20 You are right, I forgot one bonus. But why do you think, that autocannos, blasters, pulse lasers and torps should have the same range? And you say that i should use a target painter to counter the larger sig, but I do not see a new free slot on my phoon. Altan Demart They dont have the same range. But 950 DPS at any range higher than 30km is just horribly unbalanced. If you want more range then you need to do less dps, and javelin offers exactly that.
Altan Demart Minmatar Black Silver	Posted - 2007.10.14 02:11:00 - [113] The 950dps or the 1150 dps with faction ammo, was that not the damage/s you can do with a cnr and not with a phoon? Do not forget that a phoon only has 4 missile launcher slots. So you say, because you think that the cnraven is to powerfull, the phoon has to be nerfed too. Great! Altan Demart
Transcendant One	Posted - 2007.10.14 02:17:00 - [114] Originally by: Gamesguy But 950 DPS at any range higher than 30km is just horribly unbalanced. If you want more range then you need to do less dps, and javelin offers exactly that. Raw dps means nothing without taking into account flight time. Current torps may have long range but they are slow and innefective at long range. See a lot of torp ravens in fleet battles?
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.14 02:18:00 - [115] Edited by: Gamesguy on 14/10/2007 02:25:21 Originally by: Altan Demart The 950dps or the 1150 dps with faction ammo, was that not the damage/s you can do with a cnr and not with a phoon? Do not forget that a phoon only has 4 missile launcher slots. So you say, because you think that the cnraven is to powerfull, the phoon has to be nerfed too. Great! Altan Demart Umm what? Its 950 DPS with faction ammo on a regular raven with max skills/3 BCU. The typhoon can hit 900 DPS with faction ammo with no damage mods. How is this a nerf? In addition, this is a boost to caldari PvE. Javelin torpedos cost roughly twice as much as regular ones. It takes my ratting raven about 9 volleys of torps to kill a high end rat(1.75mil or 1.85mil rat). Thats roughly 20k isk, now it will take 40k isk to kill the same rat. Big deal, a whopping extra 20k isk to kill a rat that gives 1.9mil in bounty? Not to mention you can now rat 33% faster? How is this a nerf to raven PvE? Its a ******* buff to the torpedo, period, no buts.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.14 02:20:00 - [116] Originally by: Transcendant One Originally by: Gamesguy But 950 DPS at any range higher than 30km is just horribly unbalanced. If you want more range then you need to do less dps, and javelin offers exactly that. Raw dps means nothing without taking into account flight time. Current torps may have long range but they are slow and innefective at long range. See a lot of torp ravens in fleet battles? It takes the new torp 9 seconds to hit its target at 30km, big ******* deal. On onehand you cry the range nerf is too much, on the otherhand you say long range ravens are pointless. You cant have your cake and eat it too, hypocrits.
Transcendant One	Posted - 2007.10.14 02:28:00 - [117] Edited by: Transcendant One on 14/10/2007 02:28:03 Originally by: Gamesguy It takes the new torp 9 seconds to hit its target at 30km, big ***** deal. Since when is 30 km long range . Quote: On onehand you cry the range nerf is too much I haven't, in fact I like the direction these changes are going. Good job on making baseless assumptions though. Quote: on the otherhand you say long range ravens are pointless. Long range torp Ravens are pointless. Well OK, there's POS sieges, which I don't give a damn about. Quote:** You cant have your cake and eat it too, hypocrits. What are you smoking, and why are you using the plural? As if everyone who disagrees with you has the exact same viewpoint. And since you like that smiley here's another:
Donatien Francois	Posted - 2007.10.14 05:44:00 - [118] Blaster-pedoes! But whatever, I fly Gallente so it doesn't really affect me first-hand.
iiOs Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.10.14 05:52:00 - [119] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: iiOs Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: iiOs Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: iiOs Edited by: iiOs on 14/10/2007 00:24:03 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: iiOs byea, XL close range aint good but wtf, do you even play this game? i can fly in my bthron or my ac pest and be 100% safe from small targets, bcaus i can neut them , get into web range and they are gone, now, do same with new torp raven This is different from the old torp raven how? old torp raven? old torp raven poped everything below cruisers in 1 volley::( but now its gonna be even worse then old nerfed raven witch atleast had good range, now its gonna be true closerange weapon and its totaly crap for some odd reason, even vs bs unless you fit zilion painters Its. Called. A. *****. Javelin. Torpedo. The new javelin torp is 3 times faster, do more DPS, shoot further, and have better explosion velocity than the old t1 torp. you realy belive they wont nerf them? again, if things stay the way they are they just havnt looked at them yet, the moment they notice that t2 torps are usefull again, they gonna swing the nerfbat So you base your entire argument on something that hasnt happened yet and you have no clue whether it will even happen at all. Brilliant argument there. and you base your argument on what exactly? something that havnt been released yet? Ya I am, its called a test server** for a reason. So we can give ccp feedback on what we think about the changes, not imaginary changes that only exist in your head. kinde obvies that with such a big change all the ammo gonna need to be tweaked, isnt it? ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
J Valkor Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.10.14 06:18:00 - [120] Edited by: J Valkor on 14/10/2007 06:19:20 Needs more paint.

Testosterone Bomb Red Ballz	Posted - 2007.10.14 06:38:00 - [121] Edited by: Testosterone Bomb on 14/10/2007 06:43:28 Edited by: Testosterone Bomb on 14/10/2007 06:39:41 Actually I can understand what might be freaking out some of those pilot that use Siege Launchers. Up until now Torps have been a rather decent damage dealer for larger targets at any range. (BTW can see a valid complaint if a player invested a lot of time into torps like spec 4 and found out now that its no longer a long range option if thats how they had wanted to use it) So the question would be how will missiles do in both PvP and PvE in short mid and long range combat situations compared to other weapon systems with and without equal number of modules that adject fire rate, damage, tracking, range. So should the comparison be (Rockets, Assaults & Siege ) vs Blasters & AutoCannons (Light, heavy & Cruiser Missiles) vs Rails & Arties Fly Safe
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.14 07:38:00 - [122] We get us tracking computers and tracking enhancers to increase gun range and the ability to hit smaller fast moving targets better..give us something similar for missiles already! Paradox V2.0 is recruiting!
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.14 08:27:00 - [123] Originally by: Sokratesz We get us tracking computers and tracking enhancers to increase gun range and the ability to hit smaller fast moving targets better..give us something similar for missiles already! Painters & webs Imo, this is buff to torps and if javelins fly 150km with rigs we will see alot of ravens again.
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.10.14 08:36:00 - [124] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Sokratesz We get us tracking computers and tracking enhancers to increase gun range and the ability to hit smaller fast moving targets better..give us something similar for missiles already! Painters & webs Painters and webs work for turret ships as well, there are no non-targeted missile improving mods expect ballistic controls. These days even drones have them so there isn't really a reason why missiles shouldn't get them. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.14 08:52:00 - [125] Originally by: Gamesguy Please enlighten me how this is a nerf. Your ability to hit anything without the assistance of a huggin is effectively removed, not to mention the added need of mwd, that means no fitting tank... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.14 09:32:00 - [126] Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: Gamesguy Please enlighten me how this is a nerf. Your ability to hit anything without the assistance of a huggin is effectively removed, not to mention the added need of mwd, that means no fitting tank... I am going to say this one last time. Javelin torps with the new launcher deals MORE dps than the current launcher with faction torps, is much faster, has longer range, and with much better explosion velocity. You dont want to do 950 DPS at 30km? Fine, then you can do 700 DPS up to 150km with javelins. And before you say it, javelins only cost twice as much as t1 torps, they are very much economical for ratting(20k extra isk cost in ammo to kill a 1.9mil bs spawn).
dAn melax Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.10.14 10:04:00 - [127] ehm you are talking about the range problem and the main is the sig radius >.< "range and explo vel" <=> javelin torps, you can say that jav will reduce the problem with explosion radius, but they'll not, cause everyone will use them instead of t1/faction stuff (I mean for pvp). Comparing "long range" t1 missiles to their "close" brothers/sisters (whatever) you can see that in small versions of missiles (lights and rockets) you have 50 explo radius (and the possibility to reduce it with the skill) and 20 explo rad (so it can act like prob 75mm rail to shoot down the small ships + pods), all "heavies" got the same sig radius but the long range version can be changed by the skill, cruise missiles got 300 (+ skill) and torps now have 400 and they want to change it to 530 "cause torps shouldn't take down smaller ships" come on typhoon, armageddon, dominix, scorpion, megathron, raven, ... and every battleship is a damn "small ship"!? even with 400 explo radius you need to use painter to hit phoon or other tier1 bs with full dmg. And pls dont compare torps to XL guns if you want to do that check the Doom Torp and change the topic :) Play Hard. Go Pro.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.14 10:29:00 - [128] Originally by: Gamesguy And before you say it, javelins only cost twice as much as t1 torps, they are very much economical for ratting(20k extra isk cost in ammo to kill a 1.9mil bs spawn). They are so cheap because atm no one uses them. Guess what happens when t2 ammo becomes a requirement for ratting with torps? --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.14 10:47:00 - [129] Edited by: LUKEC on 14/10/2007 10:47:58 Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Gamesguy And before you say it, javelins only cost twice as much as t1 torps, they are very much economical for ratting(20k extra isk cost in ammo to kill a 1.9mil bs spawn). They are so cheap because atm no one uses them. Guess what happens when t2 ammo becomes a requirement for ratting with torps? Nothing. Everyone that will use them alot will invent them. But you can manipulate market and buy it all. Oh and I just might clean dust of mine javelin bpos... (didn't make any for more than a year) How about other people that can't actually npc with t1 ammo? (hi amarr... )
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.14 11:04:00 - [130] You think they will not change T2 torps at all while they nerf the living **** out of T1 torps? ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats

Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.14 11:23:00 - [131] Originally by: Laboratus You think they will not change T2 torps at all while they nerf the living ** out of T1 torps? How the hell is the t1 ammo change a nerf? Its a huge ***** buff. Nice to know you have no argument left but to make idle speculations. But just to entertain you, I fully expect ccp to bring javelin torps inline with other javelin missiles(like hams and rockets). The damage and sig resolution of javelin torps are about right, the flight time is probably too long. The final result will probably have around 85km range, which is the same as the javelin assault missile.
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.14 11:26:00 - [132] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Laboratus You think they will not change T2 torps at all while they nerf the living ** out of T1 torps? How the hell is the t1 ammo change a nerf? Its a huge ***** buff. Nice to know you have no argument left but to make idle speculations. But just to entertain you, I fully expect ccp to bring javelin torps inline with other javelin missiles(like hams and rockets). The damage and sig resolution of javelin torps are about right, the flight time is probably too long. The final result will probably have around 85km range, which is the same as the javelin assault missile. Bleh it is a nerf ..... for noobly specced Raven ratters that only use it for that. Hell, I don't even have Cruise prereqs, but I still ratted better in a raven than anything else minmatar. Now I'm not sure what I'll do. Advice? :D
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.14 11:29:00 - [133] Originally by: Swamp Ziro Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Laboratus You think they will not change T2 torps at all while they nerf the living ** out of T1 torps? How the hell is the t1 ammo change a nerf? Its a huge ***** buff. Nice to know you have no argument left but to make idle speculations. But just to entertain you, I fully expect ccp to bring javelin torps inline with other javelin missiles(like hams and rockets). The damage and sig resolution of javelin torps are about right, the flight time is probably too long. The final result will probably have around 85km range, which is the same as the javelin assault missile. Bleh it is a nerf ..... for noobly specced Raven ratters that only use it for that. Hell, I don't even have Cruise prereqs, but I still ratted better in a raven than anything else minmatar. Now I'm not sure what I'll do. Advice? :D Ha! I knew training torp 5 for javelins one week before it got nerfed would pay off someday! My advice would be to train torp 5 and marvel and how much faster you can kill rats with javelins.
Zana Kito Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.14 11:38:00 - [134] Thinking about this some more.. 900+ dps from t1 torps alone up to 30km is awesome. but 700 dps from jav torps to 150km is just crazy.. Imagine a siege raven setup, just change ammo on the fly and you can get great close range dps or crazy long range dps. No other turreted ship have this flexibility and power. All turret sniper options deal less than half of that in dps. I wouldn't be surprised if jav torps get tweaked a bit. 700 dps at over 100km range is a tad too much.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.14 11:50:00 - [135] Originally by: Zana Kito 900+ dps from t1 torps alone up to 30km is awesome. Remember you need target painters ("mid slot damage mods") to actually reach that kind of damage. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Dragon Lord Caldari InQuest Ascension R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.14 12:01:00 - [136] Originally by: Zana Kito Thinking about this some more.. 900+ dps from t1 torps alone up to 30km is awesome. but 700 dps from jav torps to 150km is just crazy.. Imagine a siege raven setup, just change ammo on the fly and you can get great close range dps or crazy long range dps. No other turreted ship have this flexibility and power. All turret sniper options deal less than half of that in dps. I wouldn't be surprised if jav torps get tweaked a bit. 700 dps at over 100km range is a tad too much. Ill be annoyed if they nerf javs, there supposed to fast high precision torpedos thats what they do, people might actually use them now. If they nerf them to hell and back then it will suck big time. Normal torps i dont have a problem with the change despite using cn torps on my cnr for missions i think this is a good change. If they do tweak it i hope they dont tweek it much.
dAn melax Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.10.14 12:54:00 - [137] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Zana Kito 900+ dps from t1 torps alone up to 30km is awesome. Remember you need target painters ("mid slot damage mods") to actually reach that kind of damage. ehm yeah lots of them and we are back to the times with 5x target painters on a raven and rage torps, but then it was just t2 torp, after update will need to use them even on t1 so stop getting exited about the amagad 900 dps, you can get that on a target with more or equal sig radius like your explosion and that we'll be tough >.< now the jav torps will be the primary to use, who the hell will use t1 torps in pvp #crap# Play Hard. Go Pro.
Tammarr	Posted - 2007.10.14 13:44:00 - [138] Originally by: CCP Zulupark So yeah, I'm guessing you guys saw the changes then :) We just started messing around with this yesterday, and these changes should in fact not have been made public so soon preferably, as we're not done balancing them. But you get the basic concept: shorter range, more damage. Please reserve judgment on this until we've finalized (or at least improved) our design on torpedos.
PDJames	Posted - 2007.10.14 17:04:00 - [139] Do the new siege launchers have lowered fitting requirements? As of now, torpedoes (short-range) have higher grid AND cpu requirements than cruise missiles (long-range) Short-ranged guns have lower fitting requirements than long-ranged guns due to the necessity of having an MWD and a stronger tank at short range. Now that torpedoes are going to be more similar to short-range guns in terms of range and damage, are they going to be changed to be more similar in terms of relative fitting requirements as well?
Kailiani Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.14 18:41:00 - [140] Edited by: Kailiani on 14/10/2007 18:44:58 I don't like this at all, I really don't see it being affective except in a small gang. Nerfed: 80% range Explosion radius, requiring a target painter to get the same damage as before on even BS's. PVE Buffed: ROF equaling 33% more damage which means: 0.6% more damage on 400m sig radius BS Gang pvp? Oh and the not so obvious fact that these huge torpedoes will be firing as fast as heavy missiles. A straight up damage buff on the torps would have been better instead of a ROF bonus. Reloading gonna be a problem also with so few torps in the launcher, has anyone calculated this into their DPS fiqures? Raven is a sitting duck, firing 6 KM from certain death of warp scrambler. And going over 1KM running from the guy isnt goin to help, hes faster and taking lots less damage on the aproach at these speeds. Might as well let him get into range and orbit so your torps would do more damage as he slows down.

Jasai Kameron Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.14 22:11:00 - [141] Originally by: Kailiani Oh and the not so obvious fact that these huge torpedoes will be firing as fast as heavy missiles. A straight up damage buff on the torps would have been better instead of a ROF bonus. Reloading gonna be a problem also with so few torps in the launcher, has anyone calculated this into their DPS fiqures? Raven is a sitting duck, firing 6 KM from certain death of warp scrambler. And going over 1KM/s running from the guy isnt goin to help, hes faster and taking lots less damage on the aproach at these speeds. Might as well let him get into range and orbit so your torps would do more damage as he slows down, and slap on more tank instead of a MWD... Lets say raven pilots do adapt and all bring a tackler along, all the gallente pilot needs to do is also bring a anti-tackler and its game over again for raven. So its needs to be a decent sized gang for the raven to be any use.. First off, these numbers aren't finished. Secondly, I don't think these numbers are bad in PvP. RoF increases hurt a lot less for missiles. Your one disadvantage is you have to reload sooner. And you're complaining about it, despite the huge damage increase a RoF improvement gives you. Next, you seem to be comparing a Raven to a Blastership of some description? The counterpart Tier wise is the Blasterthron. So here's one for you. I very much doubt a Raven will be slower than a plated ship with armor rigs. No idea how you can call the Raven a sitting duck. Why is a warp scrambler certain death? Did I miss the improvement where they added a 10,000 dps to the device? Interesting point about the microwarpdriving Blasterthron not taking dps on the approach. I haven't really used missile in years. But I would have thought the huge sig radius would have meant it took some dps. Perhaps someone more experienced can clear that up. Either way, the Blasterthron does practically no dps until it's in range. So I think fair is fair. The final point, of course, is that it is foolish to orientate this entirely around a 1 v 1, when 1 v 1s are so rare. The Raven is meant to be a gang ship and it will be a far better gangship than the Blasterthron, which has to gut its capacitor out every time it wants to switch targets.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.14 23:14:00 - [142] Edited by: Qui Shon on 14/10/2007 23:14:27 Originally by: Gamesguy I am going to say this one last time. Javelin torps with the new launcher deals pretty much the same dps than the current launcher with faction torps, is much faster, has longer range, and with much better explosion velocity. You dont want to do 950 DPS at 30km? Fine, then you can do 700 DPS up to 150km with javelins. And before you say it, javelins only cost twice as much as t1 torps, they are very much economical for ratting(20k extra isk cost in ammo to kill a 1.9mil bs spawn). You're forgetting the rof increase, which adds another, 30%, is it (?) to cost. Missions also don't have 1,9mil BS's, but they have a LOT of BC's and Cruisers. So when they do nerf the Jav torps, what will happen to it's explosion radius, how do you know it will be left alone? This is a BIG nerf to missionrunners, makes me wish I hadn't trained up missile skills at all. Should've stuck with the Domi (Which, on paper, outdamages the Cruise raven at up to 40km's, though it's dps goes down when switching damage type.)
Kailiani Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.14 23:37:00 - [143] Quote: First off, these numbers aren't finished. Secondly, I don't think these numbers are bad in PvP. RoF increases hurt a lot less for missiles. Your one disadvantage is you have to reload sooner. And you're complaining about it, despite the huge damage increase a RoF improvement gives you. 0.6% dmg increased on a unpainted Mega. Quote: Next, you seem to be comparing a Raven to a Blastership of some description? The counterpart Tier wise is the Blasterthron. So here's one for you. I very much doubt a Raven will be slower than a plated ship with armor rigs. No idea how you can call the Raven a sitting duck. Why is a warp scrambler certain death? Did I miss the improvement where they added a 10,000 dps to the device? Maybe the speeds need to be checked.. Oh and 0.6% dmg increase unpainted. If the raven fit TP's to actually use the damage it'd be dead quick without a tank. Quote: Interesting point about the microwarpdriving Blasterthron not taking dps on the approach. I haven't really used missile in years. But I would have thought the huge sig radius would have meant it took some dps. Perhaps someone more experienced can clear that up. Either way, the Blasterthron does practically no dps until it's in range. So I think fair is fair. I don't know the formula but... explosion velocity is 250, which should mean any speed over 250= reduced dmg. Need the formula tho.. Quote: The final point, of course, is that it is foolish to orientate this entirely around a 1 v 1, when 1 v 1s are so rare. The Raven is meant to be a gang ship and it will be a far better gangship than the Blasterthron, which has to gut its capacitor out every time it wants to switch targets. Yea, I guess caldari/amarr are pre-nerfed for needing a gang.
Kasheem Cetanes DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.15 04:32:00 - [144] Edited by: Kasheem Cetanes on 15/10/2007 04:34:32 So what I understand from all this is basically as follows. Range has been decreased by 83% Sig radius of the weapon has been increases ROF has been decreased. So all in all, if you didn't run out of ammo in your clip, it is what, 6 or .6% increase in damage for a 83% decrease in range with no target painter. And these crazy high ranges and skills, To get the normal missiles to 30KM you need what, Caldari BS 5, All Missile Related Skills 5, Faction Mods. So yeah, with faction mods, and a target painter and BS 5 you can do 1k DPS at 30km. So realistically, the damage that I see with MY tech 1 torps, isn't going to change, until I reload, so Ill actually have Lower dps. and lower range. So with my lower dps, and lower range, and inability to hit targets decently that are smaller than a BS. It pretty much makes Torps inviable weapons for PvP AND PvE. Also, when making a comparison Between Missiles and turrets, remember the turret shots get there instantly, where missiles have flight time, in addition, if we start to warp away, our missile no longer hit, and if you fly out of their range before they hit you, no damage done at all, and with a range of realistically like 25km, that isn't that hard, Summary: Less Range, Less DPS because of reload time = full blown nerf unless you are shooting at POSes.
Zeknichov Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.15 04:55:00 - [145] People people... Jav torps are the same. You will deal more dps with jav torps after patch than you did with t1 pre-patch. Meaning PvE ravens just got a buff and PvP ravens just got a buff. Ravens overall got a buff. I don't see a nerf anywhere.. move along.
Mehmet Zafir	Posted - 2007.10.15 05:50:00 - [146] How does this change affect the torpedo battery POS defenses? Have the batteries been given a larger flight time/velocity multiplier? Or does the range nerf make them even more worthless than they were before?
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.10.15 06:06:00 - [147] Originally by: Mehmet Zafir How does this change affect the torpedo battery POS defenses? Have the batteries been given a larger flight time/velocity multiplier? Or does the range nerf make them even more worthless than they were before? Point worth considering. Will the torp batteries end up as blaster batteries with approx 45 km range (with battery bonuses) ? Just unable to hit anything below dread for full damage. Will they get also 30% RoF bonus or will CCP 'forget' about POS stuff when torps get overhaul ? Or will we get at last T2 Torp batteries for POS what are able to use javelin torps ?
Pure Murder	Posted - 2007.10.15 06:15:00 - [148] Originally by: Zeknichov People people... Jav torps are the same. You will deal more dps with jav torps after patch than you did with t1 pre-patch. Meaning PvE ravens just got a buff and PvP ravens just got a buff. Ravens overall got a buff. I don't see a nerf anywhere.. move along. That's true for t2. Well PvE will cost more with jav torps but w/e. It's a ******* nerf to faction launchers though .
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2007.10.15 06:40:00 - [149] Originally by: dAn melax so if its 530 sig radius maybe guided prec skill should affect torps but not with 5% per lvl, cause that would be to awesome xD , but how about 2% per lvl, it's nothing but something :/ It's probably a decent idea considering 530 wouldn't even give torps full damage against BSs and being a BS sized weapons they should be fully effective. Although I think maybe boosting target painting would be a better option that way you need to sacrifice a bit of tank to have more power. Hopefully they'll take a pass at other missile systems but I think this change will be decent. Hopefully we get a Khanid BS to take advantage of the change at some point ^_^ -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."
Jack Farness	Posted - 2007.10.15 07:30:00 - [150] Originally by: Kadoes Khan Originally by: dAn melax so if its 530 sig radius maybe guided prec skill should affect torps but not with 5% per lvl, cause that would be to awesome xD , but how about 2% per lvl, it's nothing but something :/ It's probably a decent idea considering 530 wouldn't even give torps full damage against BSs and being a BS sized weapons they should be fully effective. Although I think maybe boosting target painting would be a better option that way you need to sacrifice a bit of tank to have more power. Hopefully they'll take a pass at other missile systems but I think this change will be decent. Hopefully we get a Khanid BS to take advantage of the change at some point ^_^ I dont thinnk that even 5% per lvl would be that unbalanced. It would make new torps equal to old one at lvl5 (sig radius 397,5). Only thing that is changed then is more DPS /less range

Damned Force	Posted - 2007.10.15 07:41:00 - [151] Edited by: Damned Force on 15/10/2007 07:44:42 Good change, grat devs. Just the incrased sig radius is a bit unbalanced. Than u should incrase sig radius to all BS sized short range weapons: Blasters, autocannons, pulse lasers Sokratesz asked for similiar modules as tracking computers and Lukec answered web etc. That not right. because tracking computers dont effect your weapons just in 10km range. So i think Devs should make such mod for missiles too.
illusionary beauty Raid Industries	Posted - 2007.10.15 07:44:00 - [152] BOOST POS TORP BATTERIES!
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.15 07:48:00 - [153] I love this change, now there'll be options for pvp Raven as opposed to the standard armour-tank and ewar fits. And I don't mind the huuuge sig radius either. The choice is clear - go for gank or tank. Most (well, the balanced ones anyway...) ships have to make a choice along those line, and it's better than not having such a choice at all. Hmmm... a group of 3 triple-BCS torp Ravens, with rigged remote-rep armour tanks, painters and ewar? Sounds nice.
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.10.15 08:02:00 - [154] Originally by: Gypsio III I love this change, now there'll be options for pvp Raven as opposed to the standard armour-tank and ewar fits. And I don't mind the huuuge sig radius either. The choice is clear - go for gank or tank. Most (well, the balanced ones anyway...) ships have to make a choice along those line, and it's better than not having such a choice at all. Hmmm... a group of 3 triple-BCS torp Ravens, with rigged remote-rep armour tanks, painters and ewar? Sounds nice. Sure, the sig radius is not so big problem, just than the other races should have such sig on the low range weapons too
Ms Belle	Posted - 2007.10.15 08:34:00 - [155] I quite like these changes as dropping spawns in 0.0 will now be much faster and for PvP I can with a all in gank setup and still get great damage at range by using jav's. For fleet battles tanks are not that great (an active tank is all PvE. Does not have much of a place in PvP unless you are a cap ship and even then...) So I would use a setup which involves Torps and a Remote repper/smartbombs in the highs, EWAR/Speed/Painters in the mids (Loads of flexibility here) and in the lows your BCU's and plates/resist. Yes she handles like a brick anyway but in a fleet battle you should either be set at your optimal or warp onto a ally who is already there (in an ideal world) Rigs can be used to either augment your Ewar or trimarks/resists. Not sure on the fitting requirements so if someone could check I would appreciate it. Also I know Rage torps are Poo but has anyone checked how the changes effect them?
Jasai Kameron Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.15 08:56:00 - [156] Edited by: Jasai Kameron on 15/10/2007 08:57:46 Edited by: Jasai Kameron on 15/10/2007 08:57:03 Originally by: Kailiani 0.6% dmg increased on a unpainted Mega. That's not an argument in and of itself. How much dps does a Mega do without supporting modules? Probably none if it doesn't have MwD and a webber because a) tracking will be a problem and b) it's highly unlikely the target will be within its limited range. Tell me how much the damage increase is on a blasterthron with one painter and then I'll either agree or disagree with you based on that. Quote: Maybe the speeds need to be checked.. Oh and 0.6% dmg increase unpainted. If the raven fit TP's to actually use the damage it'd be dead quick without a tank. Okay, I checked it. Blasterthron with 2 1600mm rolled tungsten and 3 x trimarks = 969 m/s with a named MWD. Raven with a named microwarp drive = 1028 m/s. Obviously it will be even better if you can fit the T2 MWD on the Raven. No idea how feasible that is. Why will it be dead quick? I assume you'd fit propulsion, painter, warp disruptor, right? That leaves three mid slots for tank and 2-3 lo slots for tank. So you can fit 1 booster, 2 x Invulnerability fields, and a few PDUs. You can even use your rig slots for tank if you like. This isn't PVE. You don't have to fit a six mid slot tank to survive. On the typical Blasterthron, there are only 4 or maybe 5 slots dedicated to tank. If you count lo-slot modules like the PDS that do aid your tank then you have exactly the same situation. Quote: I don't know the formula but... explosion velocity is 250, which should mean any speed over 250= reduced dmg. Need the formula tho.. Aye. Quote: Yea, I guess caldari/amarr are pre-nerfed for needing a gang. Well, like I say, there are some ships that are better solo but worse in a gang and some which are better in a gang but worse solo. That's not prima facie unbalanced. That said, I still think a Raven with this amount of dps has a fair chance 1 on 1 vs. a Blasterthron. But either way, its going to be a much better ship in a mid-sized gang.
Tom Rebane Nova Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.15 09:21:00 - [157] well im not a fan of torps but on their current state on sisi, their dps is higher though reduced unless your using a target painter, plus the advantage torps had was they had an decent range 151km with max skills in a raven now with max skills you get 30km (with stardard t1 torp) and this aint great if your sensor dampened to hell and back, i know this thread has alot of complaints and congradulations, i personally think these "new" torps need to be tested till the cows come home
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.15 09:28:00 - [158] Originally by: Jasai Kameron Okay, I checked it. Blasterthron with 2 1600mm rolled tungsten and 3 x trimarks = 969 m/s with a named MWD. Raven with a named microwarp drive = 1028 m/s. Obviously it will be even better if you can fit the T2 MWD on the Raven. No idea how feasible that is. Why will it be dead quick? I assume you'd fit propulsion, painter, warp disruptor, right? That leaves three mid slots for tank and 2-3 lo slots for tank. So you can fit 1 booster, 2 x Invulnerability fields, and a few PDUs. You can even use your rig slots for tank if you like. you are not quite right. you gonna die quick fighting a plated neutron mega with a 2-3slot tank without remmoterep support.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.15 09:34:00 - [159] Originally by: Jasai Kameron That's not an argument in and of itself. How much dps does a Mega do without supporting modules? Probably none if it doesn't have MwD and a webber because a) tracking will be a problem and b) it's highly unlikely the target will be within its limited range. Tell me how much the damage increase is on a blasterthron with one painter and then I'll either agree or disagree with you based on that. Okay, I checked it. Blasterthron with 2 1600mm rolled tungsten and 3 x trimarks = 969 m/s with a named MWD. Raven with a named microwarp drive = 1028 m/s. Obviously it will be even better if you can fit the T2 MWD on the Raven. No idea how feasible that is. Is the missile guide all wrong then? Using the figures it gives, and one T2 painter, that mega will take ~2% reduced damage from sig radius, and ~20% from speed reduction. Something going at 1500m/s will take less then half the damage. A typhoon will get a 20% reduction for sig, and if it's faster even more reduction from speed then the Mega.
Tom Rebane Nova Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.15 09:36:00 - [160] the missle guide in eve does not include the torp nerf/buff, as they said its in testing and isnt set yet, so they of course wouldnt update the guide to include these changes.......yet.

Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.15 09:53:00 - [161] The missile guide lets you set explosion veloxity, sig radius and so forth.
Tom Rebane Nova Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.15 09:54:00 - [162] Originally by: Qui Shon The missile guide lets you set explosion veloxity, sig radius and so forth. cant remember but without skills the explosive radius of a torp is now 530, guide only goes upto 500
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.15 09:59:00 - [163] Should still be fairly close though. Or?
Gavin Darklighter Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.10.15 12:30:00 - [164] Leave explosion radius at 400m2 (or even smaller, 320m2 is the size of the typhoon) for ALL torpedo types (even rage). Nerf torp explosion velocity to 80m/s for T1 and Javelin, and 40m/s for Rage. This makes T1 torps hit for full damage on battleships that are not using MWD, but BS moving faster than 160m/s will have a damage reductio. Smaller ships like cruiser, dictors, frigs, ect will take almost NO damage when microwarping, but if they get webbed down and leave on their mwd, torps will hit them hard, just like BS guns would.
Jasai Kameron Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.15 13:08:00 - [165] Edited by: Jasai Kameron on 15/10/2007 13:13:38 Originally by: d026 Originally by: Jasai Kameron Okay, I checked it. Blasterthron with 2 1600mm rolled tungsten and 3 x trimarks = 969 m/s with a named MWD. Raven with a named microwarp drive = 1028 m/s. Obviously it will be even better if you can fit the T2 MWD on the Raven. No idea how feasible that is. Why will it be dead quick? I assume you'd fit propulsion, painter, warp disruptor, right? That leaves three mid slots for tank and 2-3 lo slots for tank. So you can fit 1 booster, 2 x Invulnerability fields, and a few PDUs. You can even use your rig slots for tank if you like. you are not quite right. you gonna die quick fighting a plated neutron mega with a 2-3slot tank without remmoterep support. Yes, but the Megathron will die quickly fighting a 1000 dps Raven. The question is who dies first. So - I put together a Raven with max skills, 1 x Large Shield Extender, 2 x Invulnerability Field, 1 x PDS, 1 x Damage Control (and 3 x BCU) and 3 x Core Defence Field Extender. (I also fitted 6 x Siege Launchers, 2 x named nosf, 1 x Quad MWD, 1 x Warp Disruptor and 1 x named target painter). I got 99,181 effective hp, taking resistances into account. A Neutron Plated Mega with 2 x Plates, 1 x EAN, 1 x DC, 3 x trimarks equals 105,047 effective hp. However the Megathron has no shield recharge. I believe the Raven above is recharging about 83 hp/ sec, so if the fight lasts a minute it will have an extra 4,980 hp, which brings them practically level. Of course, the Megathron is doing more dps by 150 odd dps, so I guess it comes down to two things - capacitor and how much damage the Raven can do to the Mega on the approach - as well as the really crucial issue, which is that the Raven is the faster ship with these setups and can control range. I'm afraid this was all done in EFT (using T2 gear unless otherwise stated). I can post the full setups for flaming if needed. I realise that it's all very hypothetical. All I'm trying to say is that it's not as simple as "The Raven is going to get pwned against a Blasterthron", because, quite simply, it's a lot more complicated than that. Edited: I forgot to add that the Raven can choose damage type. If he uses explosive torps the Blasterthron's going to be having a very bad day. Also I know most people will fit an active tank on a Raven, and I think that would work well, too. However, it was easiest to compare an hp tank, since that's what the Megathron was using. As you can see, the hp tanks are very comparable.
Sneer Quen WING MAN INC The Sundering	Posted - 2007.10.15 13:49:00 - [166] as far as bs duel tanking and using mwd in bs how long ? 2 min or less relax and go back from clouds AC minmatar setup has 4-5 km optimal and 20 fallof and it needs ab/mwd to reach target raven has 30 km+ and also needs one mid slot / TP with this slot used it is more or less 30 km optimal and minnie ???? in order to give full dmg it needs to go to 5 km !!!! it is a caldari buff for me
Jasai Kameron Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.15 13:59:00 - [167] Originally by: Sneer Quen as far as bs duel tanking and using mwd in bs how long ? 2 min or less Er, neither BS were active tanking. The Raven can run the MWD for 2 minutes. Once it turns the MWD off it can run everything indefinitely. Anyway, I agree that the comparison is a bit silly. I can't see many 1v1s taking place along these lines. All I meant to show was that the Raven would not be underpowered with these changes. A lot depends on how much damage Raven, 6 x torp launchers and one target painter do. If it is close to the 823 dps (before drones) that has been quoted, then the Raven is going to be very powerful. And, in my opinion, a fair match against virtually any Tier 1 or Tier 2 Battleship.
Lrrp Minmatar Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.10.15 14:21:00 - [168] You know, instead of screwing around nerfing the torp, why not do like the heavy missile change and develope a "Assault" torpedo. That way mission runners have their tried and true torps while pvp'ers will have a new weapon to play around with.
dAn melax Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.10.15 16:54:00 - [169] Originally by: Lrrp You know, instead of screwing around nerfing the torp, why not do like the heavy missile change and develope a "Assault" torpedo. That way mission runners have their tried and true torps while pvp'ers will have a new weapon to play around with. Torps should be assault cruise missiles ;D Play Hard. Go Pro.
Imiarr Timshae Roid Vandals Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.15 17:39:00 - [170] Apologies, this is going to be the most crude post I've made to date : *Stop fuking about with balance!** -Imiarr-

KhaniKirai	Posted - 2007.10.15 18:05:00 - [171] Originally by: Qui Shon Edited by: Qui Shon on 15/10/2007 09:57:40 The missile guide lets you set explosion velocity, sig radius and so forth with the slider screens, but unfortunately not weapon stats in the chart screen. The exp radius slider only goes up to 500 though, and the new torps will have 530. Yeah, but the guided skill doesnt work for torps. Torps plain stink, because some skills and implants dont work for them.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.15 18:10:00 - [172] Originally by: Jasai Kameron Edited by: Jasai Kameron on 15/10/2007 13:13:38 Originally by: d026 Originally by: Jasai Kameron Okay, I checked it. Blasterthron with 2 1600mm rolled tungsten and 3 x trimarks = 969 m/s with a named MWD. Raven with a named microwarp drive = 1028 m/s. Obviously it will be even better if you can fit the T2 MWD on the Raven. No idea how feasible that is. Why will it be dead quick? I assume you'd fit propulsion, painter, warp disruptor, right? That leaves three mid slots for tank and 2-3 lo slots for tank. So you can fit 1 booster, 2 x Invulnerability fields, and a few PDUs. You can even use your rig slots for tank if you like. you are not quite right. you gonna die quick fighting a plated neutron mega with a 2-3slot tank without remmoterep support. Yes, but the Megathron will die quickly fighting a 1000 dps Raven. The question is who dies first. So - I put together a Raven with max skills, 1 x Large Shield Extender, 2 x Invulnerability Field, 1 x PDS, 1 x Damage Control (and 3 x BCU) and 3 x Core Defence Field Extender. (I also fitted 6 x Siege Launchers, 2 x named nosf, 1 x Quad MWD, 1 x Warp Disruptor and 1 x named target painter). I got 99,181 effective hp, taking resistances into account. A Neutron Plated Mega with 2 x Plates, 1 x EAN, 1 x DC, 3 x trimarks equals 105,047 effective hp. However the Megathron has no shield recharge. I believe the Raven above is recharging about 83 hp/ sec, so if the fight lasts a minute it will have an extra 4,980 hp, which brings them practically level. Of course, the Megathron is doing more dps by 150 odd dps, so I guess it comes down to two things - capacitor and how much damage the Raven can do to the Mega on the approach - as well as the really crucial issue, which is that the Raven is the faster ship with these setups and can control range. I'm afraid this was all done in EFT (using T2 gear unless otherwise stated). I can post the full setups for flaming if needed. I realise that it's all very hypothetical. All I'm trying to say is that it's not as simple as "The Raven is going to get pwned against a Blasterthron", because, quite simply, it's a lot more complicated than that. Edited: I forgot to add that the Raven can choose damage type. If he uses explosive torps the Blasterthron's going to be having a very bad day. Also I know most people will fit an active tank on a Raven, and I think that would work well, too. However, it was easiest to compare an hp tank, since that's what the Megathron was using. As you can see, the hp tanks are very comparable. i did alot of fight against my mates neutron plate tron. it always comes down to range. if i get webbed i'm dead if i manage to kite hes dead. the torp change wont change much except that both ships will go down faster while caught in the opposites optimal:9 anyway hope to get some interesting fights with the new torps:)
Miss Smiley	Posted - 2007.10.15 20:25:00 - [173] Edited by: Miss Smiley on 15/10/2007 20:27:08 Originally by: Lrrp You know, instead of screwing around nerfing the torp, why not do like the heavy missile change and develope a "Assault" torpedo. That way mission runners have their tried and true torps while pvp'ers will have a new weapon to play around with. This would be a great idea and it would keep the mission runners happy, but ... I am sure people would complain that caldari are not only mission kings, but that they can viably solo pvp now. Then whine until shields get nerfed, we are forced to use cap for all missiles, and eventually instigate a tracking speed for all missiles as well. MUST NERF MORE! cry's is all that will happen. So I guess this will be an all out nerf, or not happen at all because to find an alternative that helps multiple people (mission runners & pvp'rs) will only **** off others even more.
Haradgrim Caldari The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.10.15 20:33:00 - [174] I will need to try it this way before I can give a true reaction but my first reaction is this just plain owns. Finally Caldari will have a short range gank ship. If I had to guess, I think that we will see some very interesting setups over the next few months if this change stays in. --
Haradgrim Caldari The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.10.15 20:37:00 - [175] Originally by: Lrrp You know, instead of screwing around nerfing the torp, why not do like the heavy missile change and develope a "Assault" torpedo. That way mission runners have their tried and true torps while pvp'ers will have a new weapon to play around with. Heavy Missiles + 1 tier = cruise missiles Assault Missiles + 1 tier = Torpedos This change actually brings Torpedos inline with their lower tier analogues. Besides, its not like cruise missiles aren't extremely viable for mission running (read: almost exactly the same), I personally run missions with torps and I see this change as a great thing (and not neccessarily the end of my lvl 4 running with torps). --
Danjira Ryuujin	Posted - 2007.10.15 20:44:00 - [176] Originally by: Sneer Quen as far as bs duel tanking and using mwd in bs how long ? 2 min or less relax and go back from clouds AC minmatar setup has 4-5 km optimal and 20 fallof and it needs ab/mwd to reach target raven has 30 km+ and also needs one mid slot / TP with this slot used it is more or less 30 km optimal and minnie ???? in order to give full dmg it needs to go to 5 km !!!! it is a caldari buff for me Where does this 30km figure come from? torpedos have a speed of 1750ms, and a flight time of 6 seconds. Thats 10.5 kilometers ignoring the fact that missiles dont hit max velocity isntantaneously, and assuming the target is stationary. Even if you're including the ravens velocity bonus at bs 5, range is under 20km. People seriously need to stop including ship and skill bonuses when comparing torpedo range to base blaster/autocannon optimal. Then realize that that guns shoot further than optimal whereas torps do no damage at their on paper max range.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2007.10.15 21:00:00 - [177] Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Originally by: Sneer Quen as far as bs duel tanking and using mwd in bs how long ? 2 min or less relax and go back from clouds AC minmatar setup has 4-5 km optimal and 20 fallof and it needs ab/mwd to reach target raven has 30 km+ and also needs one mid slot / TP with this slot used it is more or less 30 km optimal and minnie ???? in order to give full dmg it needs to go to 5 km !!!! it is a caldari buff for me Where does this 30km figure come from? torpedos have a speed of 1750ms, and a flight time of 6 seconds. Thats 10.5 kilometers ignoring the fact that missiles dont hit max velocity isntantaneously, and assuming the target is stationary. Even if you're including the ravens velocity bonus at bs 5, range is under 20km. People seriously need to stop including ship and skill bonuses when comparing torpedo range to base blaster/autocannon optimal. Then realize that that guns shoot further than optimal whereas torps do no damage at their on paper max range. Have you ever heard of something called skills? I would suggest that you give a good read in the description of missile bombardment and missile projection skills... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.15 21:05:00 - [178] Quote: Where does this 30km figure come from? torpedos have a speed of 1750ms, and a flight time of 6 seconds. It comes from maths. Base speed of 1.5 km/s and base ToF 6 seconds gives base range 9 km. Multiply 9 by 1.5¦ to account for Missile Projection, Missile Bombardment and Raven bonus. Gives 30.375 km.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.15 21:12:00 - [179] Hmmm. You ask where 30 km comes from. We tell you about basic arithmetic. What point, exactly, have we missed? In any case, all skills at IV gives 24.7 km range. That isn't under 20 km, either...
Spitzerr Racketeers	Posted - 2007.10.15 21:18:00 - [180] Very nice.. I would love to see a 6sec ROF on a siege launcher. Watch out Blasterthron here comes the Torpraven _______________________________________________

Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.15 21:19:00 - [181] Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 15/10/2007 21:10:43 Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 15/10/2007 21:09:36 Originally by: Gypsio III Quote: Where does this 30km figure come from? torpedos have a speed of 1750ms, and a flight time of 6 seconds. It comes from maths. Base speed of 1.5 km/s and base ToF 6 seconds gives base range 9 km. Multiply 9 by 1.5¦ to account for Missile Projection, Missile Bombardment and Raven bonus. Gives 30.375 km. You clearly missed the point. Guns also have skills that increase optimal and fall off, yet people are using perfect missile skills in comparison to guns with NO SKILLS(I can deal with ignoring ammo range bonuses/penalty), and neglecting optimal to fall off completely. Thanks for teaching me "maths" though. Except guns only have a 25% bonus to optimal and falloff with the 2 range skills, so an autocannon with 6km optimal and 25km fall off would have like 8 km optimal and 30km falloff. Where as the 2 missile skills more than double the missile range. In addition, falloff isnt free damage, optimal+falloff= 50% damage, missiles dont suffer from this.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.15 21:19:00 - [182] But missiles still need to accelerate, no? So they will do 0 damage at 30km with perfect skills, and 0 damage at 24km with skills at 4. And in anything but a Raven (+some faction ship) the range will be under 20km, even though perfect skills give theoretical max of just over 20km.
Sc0rphion	Posted - 2007.10.15 21:27:00 - [183] 8 pages of bull cra PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP and SHYTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT STFU ... stop "nefing not nerfing post" WTS Clue: Dont whine before changes, or you'll never see one
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.15 21:35:00 - [184] Originally by: Sc0rphion WTS Clue: Dont whine before changes, or you'll never see one Isn't that what the "whiners" in general want, when discussing proposed future changes? Never to see the change they are whining about?
Danjira Ryuujin	Posted - 2007.10.15 21:36:00 - [185] Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 15/10/2007 21:40:14 Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 15/10/2007 21:39:49 Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 15/10/2007 21:38:57 Originally by: Gypsio III What point, exactly, have we missed? Point -> Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Guns also have skills that increase optimal and fall off, yet people are using perfect missile skills in comparison to guns with NO SKILLS and neglecting optimal to fall off completely. Originally by: Gypsio III In any case, all skills at IV gives 24.7 km range. That isn't under 20 km, either... Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Thats 10.5 kilometers ignoring the fact that missiles dont hit max velocity isntantaneously, and assuming the target is stationary. Even if you're including the ravens velocity bonus at bs 5, range is under 20km." Point -> 1750 m/s x 1.5 = 2625m/s x 6 = 15.75km -> 15.75km including battleship skill is indeed less than 20km. You're confused because you decided to include other missiles skills for no apparent reason, again. See point number 1, although to your credit your did not include perfect missile skills this time. Originally by: Etho Demerzel Have you ever heard of something called skills? I would suggest that you give a good read in the description of missile bombardment and missile projection skills... Seriously? Read my post again, I mentioned that people are including pefect missile skills when comparing to base(no skills included, nor mods) gun optimal. Yes I actually mentioned skills in my post. Originally by: Gamesguy Except guns only have a 25% bonus to optimal and falloff with the 2 range skills, so an autocannon with 6km optimal and 25km fall off would have like 8 km optimal and 30km falloff. Where as the 2 missile skills more than double the missile range. In addition, falloff isnt free damage, optimal+falloff= 50% damage, missiles dont suffer from this. I never said torpedos > guns, or guns > torpedos. I'm simply disputing innacuracies that people are posting. It doesn't make sense for the community to base their arguments off innaccurate information. I was aware that Shartshoopter and trajectory analysis are only 5% per level, but that doesnt make excluding them from comparisons to torpedos under perfect skills with the best bonused bs any more legitimate. But if the point you were trying to make was that autocannons with maxed skills (according to your numbers) do some damage at ~37km while torpedos(t1) do no damage passed ~30km, I agree.
Sc0rphion	Posted - 2007.10.15 21:37:00 - [186] Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Sc0rphion WTS Clue: Dont whine before changes, or you'll never see one Isn't that what the "whiners" in general want, when discussing proposed future changes? Never to see the change they are whining about? Isnt the right place for whine about changes... !! Do you get it?? or i should draw in paper like a children FORUM HAS MORE PLACES TO POST ABOUT WHINING THINGS
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.15 21:51:00 - [187] Well, yes it does, but what would be more appropriate then ships and modules? I wouldn't want to clutter Game Development or Feedback forums with lowlevel talk about these changes, and it can't harm anyone to have paralell discussions about it. New viewpoints may emerge in different threads. But by all means, draw me one of those pictures, I like purdy piccies.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.15 22:01:00 - [188] Did they increase the base velocity of torps as well? They have are 1250m/s on TQ not 1750m/s, or did i miss something?
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.10.15 22:04:00 - [189] Whoopee, more reason for newbs to fly caldari. ----------------- Friends Forever Kill. BoB. Dead.
Danjira Ryuujin	Posted - 2007.10.15 22:05:00 - [190] Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 15/10/2007 22:05:11 Originally by: Benn Helmsman Did they increase the base velocity of torps as well? They have are 1250m/s on TQ not 1750m/s, or did i miss something? I was talking about live torpedo velocity, and I was wrong, its 1250.

Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.15 22:12:00 - [191] It's supposed to be 1500m/s on test server. Also, speed/flight time rigs DO NOT WORK with torps on test server, according to a thread in other forum. (thanks for pointing me there by the way, even though I never got any pictures)
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2007.10.15 22:43:00 - [192] Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Originally by: Etho Demerzel Have you ever heard of something called skills? I would suggest that you give a good read in the description of missile bombardment and missile projection skills... Seriously? Read my post again, I mentioned that people are including pefect missile skills when comparing to base(no skills included, nor mods) gun optimal. Yes I actually mentioned skills in my post. Then next time make your statements clear. You said "where this 30km figure comes from". If what you intended to say is, the maximum range WITHOUT considering ship bonus or skills is 10, that SAY SO. To this my answer would be: So what? The maximum Large Neutron blaster range (optimum + falloff) without considering skills and ship bonuses is 10 km, and at this distances you are only inflicting 50% of your total damage, assuming your target is stopped... With this chance torpedos are probably the best close range weapon in range AND damage. They don't have the accelerate (the acceleration is neglectable) they only have to reach the target. Which at close range will take 6 seconds at worst and after the first salvo hits the flight time does not matter anymore. Additionally blaster ships have to MOVE to the second target after the first one is destroyed. Call me crazy, but I think torps are a bit faster and more agile than battleships... Quote: Quote: Except guns only have a 25% bonus to optimal and falloff with the 2 range skills, so an autocannon with 6km optimal and 25km fall off would have like 8 km optimal and 30km falloff. Where as the 2 missile skills more than double the missile range. In addition, falloff isnt free damage, optimal+falloff= 50% damage, missiles dont suffer from this. I never said torpedos > guns, or guns > torpedos. I'm simply disputing innacuracies that people are posting. It doesn't make sense for the community to base their arguments off innaccurate information. I was aware that Shartshoopter and trajectory analysis are only 5% per level, but that doesnt make excluding them from comparisons to torpedos under perfect skills with the best bonused bs any more legitimate. But if the point you were trying to make was that autocannons with maxed skills (according to your numbers) do some damage at ~37km while torpedos(t1) do no damage passed ~30km, I agree. Yes, Autocannons do 50% damage at 37 km, and about 60% damage at 30 km. Torpedos on the other hand do 100% damage at 30 and 0 at 37. Blaster do 50% damage at 10 km and 4% at 18km. See? Different weapons, different ways to use... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Danjira Ryuujin	Posted - 2007.10.15 23:50:00 - [193] Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 15/10/2007 23:50:43 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Then next time make your statements clear. You said "Where this 30km figure comes from?". If what you intended to say is that the maximum range WITHOUT considering ship bonus or skills is 10, then SAY SO. It was perfectly clear if you read more than the first sentence. Face it, you read the first sentence and then quoted everything with some non applicable statement. How much clearer does it get than "People seriously need to stop including ship and skill bonuses when comparing torpedo range to base blaster/autocannon optimal". Ok, I'll underline : "People seriously need to stop including ship and skill bonuses when comparing torpedo range to base blaster/autocannon optimal"
IamBen Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.15 23:56:00 - [194] this is so freaking awesome. I cant believe my raven will actually be useful in pvp.
ChiShen Fox-Force-Five Blood Raiders Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.16 01:18:00 - [195] Originally by: illusionary beauty BOOST POS TORP BATTERIES! Yeah boost em!
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.16 01:26:00 - [196] Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 15/10/2007 23:50:43 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Then next time make your statements clear. You said "Where this 30km figure comes from?". If what you intended to say is that the maximum range WITHOUT considering ship bonus or skills is 10, then SAY SO. It was perfectly clear if you read more than the first sentence. Face it, you read the first sentence and then quoted everything with some non applicable statement. How much clearer does it get than "People seriously need to stop including ship and skill bonuses when comparing torpedo range to base blaster/autocannon optimal". Ok, I'll underline : "People seriously need to stop including ship and skill bonuses when comparing torpedo range to base blaster/autocannon optimal" Thats the most ******** thing ever, why should people stop? And for your information, 800mm AC II has 6km optimal and 20km falloff with max skills. So it deals 50% damage at 26km, where as torps deal 100% damage at 30km. Obviously the ac user would load barrage, which would increase that to 36km optimal+falloff. However, at 36km the maelstrom or tempest is doing way less damage than a javelin raven with the new launcher.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.16 01:36:00 - [197] Tbh, the torp change looks more like a Bellicose and Typhoon buff. Typhoon will now deal a lot more damage and it can spare a med slot without much trouble, while the Bellicose now will become a part in most ganksquads, just because there will be a lot of ravens around (lots of people fly caldari ships, still). I would like it more if they would change the -25% rof to +25% damage, even if it would reduce the buff, torps should be one punch killer and not like a hailstorm of missiles. And PLZ CCP: make us be able to turn the torp explosion effects off, with that buffed rof and more torp boats around, my computer will freeze.
Nathrezim Gallente Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.10.16 12:08:00 - [198] Well, here comes the era of ravens with mwds, webs, scrams, painters, cap injectors and armor tank. This definetaley makes things more interesting for the raven pvp-wise. might bother training for missile skills and raven :P rawr !!!! Brings in mind the dual-mwd'ing ravens back in the days
LVirus Enterprise Estonia Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.16 12:16:00 - [199] Originally by: Nathrezim Well, here comes the era of ravens with mwds, webs, scrams, painters, cap injectors and armor tank. This definetaley makes things more interesting for the raven pvp-wise. might bother training for missile skills and raven :P rawr !!!! Brings in mind the dual-mwd'ing ravens back in the days please give me that setup. It just cant be done. Raven has no powergrid to fit 6 siege II, mwd, ijector and large repper. It just cant be done.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.16 12:42:00 - [200] Powergrid rigs? ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.

Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.16 12:45:00 - [201] Originally by: Shadowsword Powergrid rigs? Use EFT and calculate a fitting that works with your stuff, then post it here. Baseless assumptions are just embarrissing.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2007.10.16 17:42:00 - [202] The idea that all ships must armor tank in order to have warp disruptors and webfiers is just plainly stupid. I would rather stick to a mass reduced, i-stabbed, damage boosted, MWD shield tanked torp-raven, and let the scrambling to a lachesis or an interceptor. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Subruz	Posted - 2007.10.16 18:04:00 - [203] I don't see why you have to fit an MWD on a raven? Most fights seem to be at below 20-30km range anyway. - Also, would one painter really suffice?
Borasao	Posted - 2007.10.16 19:58:00 - [204] Originally by: Brodde Dim I wonder if this is the first step towards a Khanid MKII BS... We can only hope
NCP S2	Posted - 2007.10.17 02:40:00 - [205] side note, i'm glad i skipped pages 2-7 :D I think the change is interesting, it'll definately provide a slight shift in some tactics at the pvp level, wont destroy raven pve too much i don't think... but yeah... guess i'll make a nano torp raven with no tank and dual webs, tripple painters, and a warp scram... because in order to pvp every ship has to have webs and a scram on it... adding in a disclaimer that that was sarcasm because at least half of you posting are too dense to catch that this makes a raven pretty decent for 0.0 gate camps, and pretty good at POS warfare, and if you were tackled with BS's hitting you before, you were probabally in just as much trouble as you would be if you were tackled with BS's hitting you with this new change... only huge difference i can see coming about all of this is the fact that you'll see a few more ravens out in pvp, which would be a huge change from the 2 that were out there before... maybe this makes the raven a viable bait ship even more now, i can just imagine the "solo ratting raven" in 0.0 seemingly oblivious to the guys coming into get the easy gank, and then woah, the raven pilot comes out with a decent punch, and a managable shield to last long enough for his buddies in the next system to get there and give a hand. it's all situational, of course, and doesn't mean the raven becomes an omgwtf king of pvp either. a blasterthon in range would still tear one up i'd imagine, but he'll at least take some dmg also. i mean, does this mean any ship with a sniper set up is too overpowered against a torp raven now? with all the talk of "this is too overpowered" and "omg i can't deal with change" it really shows those who are unable to adapt to anything. it happens with every single mention of a change, and then a few weeks later, all of that talk is gone because everyone has adapted to the change. learn to deal with it, or better yet, let me know where you're at so i can show up with a crappy fitted torp raven, and let me fire on you as you sit still and activate your civilian gattling guns on a BS of your own. then please, flame on and cry about pvp, and how it's not fair. isn't that what eve's all about anyways? -S2
Grendelsbane	Posted - 2007.10.17 03:35:00 - [206] Edited by: Grendelsbane on 17/10/2007 03:35:50 Originally by: NoNah This once again calls for a anti-missile ew. Or defender missiles that can intercept any incoming to your gang, not just your own ship. Which is exactly how anyone who isnt a developmentally disabled lemur would design them.
Neuromandis	Posted - 2007.10.17 12:07:00 - [207] I think the change was warranted and positive. That said, my blasterokh is now obsolete. Unless I did a terrible mistake in the damage sheet, a raven with torps will now outdamage it at all ranges when rokh is using null, and the rokh only outdamages it when "in your face" with void. In which case, I might as well fly a mega/hype... Oh well... --- If someone else from my Corporation or Alliance agrees with me, he will say so. Assume nobody does :) --- WTB: Scorpion wing (left)
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.17 21:51:00 - [208] Update to torp stats on SiSi atm: Bane torp: Explosion radius 530m flight time 8.25 secs velocity 1100m/s expl. veloc. 100m/s damage 540 Javelin torp: Explosion radius 350m (yes thats right, less than 400) flight time 5 secs velocity 2700m/s expl. veloc. 500m/s damage 380 T1 torps : Explosion radius 450m flight time 6 secs velocity 1500m/s expl. veloc. 250m/s damage 450 (CN: 517) T2 siege launcher base rof: 14.4 secs T2 cruise launcher base rof: 17.6 secs [lol]
iiOs	Posted - 2007.10.17 22:09:00 - [209] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Update to torp stats on SiSi atm: Bane torp: Explosion radius 530m flight time 8.25 secs velocity 1100m/s expl. veloc. 100m/s damage 540 Javelin torp: Explosion radius 350m (yes thats right, less than 400) flight time 5 secs velocity 2700m/s expl. veloc. 500m/s damage 380 T1 torps : Explosion radius 450m flight time 6 secs velocity 1500m/s expl. veloc. 250m/s damage 450 (CN: 517) T2 siege launcher base rof: 14.4 secs T2 cruise launcher base rof: 17.6 secs [lol] so its 25% dps buff and +50 explosion radius and minus lots of range and banes are still just as crappy Click me and get isk
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.17 22:17:00 - [210] actually its 33,3%, i added the numbers.

iiOs	Posted - 2007.10.17 22:19:00 - [211] Originally by: Benn Helmsman actually its 33,3%, i added the numbers. I meant 25% ROF bonus aka 33.3 % dps.P I like it alot tbh Click me and get isk
Incantare Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.10.17 22:23:00 - [212] Edited by: Incantare on 17/10/2007 22:23:10 I am overjoyed they brought fown the explosion radius on t1 torps. It seems just about right now.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.17 22:23:00 - [213] makes raven some awesome damage dealer, thx to the fact it can choose the damage type freely. Looks like it finally paid to stay with caldari missile ships.
iiOs	Posted - 2007.10.17 22:27:00 - [214] Originally by: Benn Helmsman makes raven some awesome damage dealer, thx to the fact it can choose the damage type freely. Looks like it finally paid to stay with caldari missile ships. yep:) im very happy, hope it stays this way Click me and get isk
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.17 22:30:00 - [215] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 17/10/2007 22:23:21 Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 17/10/2007 22:13:11 Update to torp stats on SiSi atm: Rage torp: Explosion radius 530m flight time 8.25 secs velocity 1100m/s expl. veloc. 100m/s damage 540 Javelin torp: Explosion radius 350m (yes thats right, less than 400) flight time 5 secs velocity 2700m/s expl. veloc. 500m/s damage 380 T1 torps : Explosion radius 450m flight time 6 secs velocity 1500m/s expl. veloc. 250m/s damage 450 (CN: 517) T2 siege launcher base rof: 14.4 secs T2 cruise launcher base rof: 17.6 secs [lol] Add: on a maxed raven with 3 t2 bcu not regarding any speed/signature/flightime issues: Rage torps:[email protected] Javelin torps:700dps@45km T1: 825dps@30km CN: 950dps@30km this is 100% aceptable. nicely done ccp:)
Lisento Slaven Amarr BAD ATTITUDES	Posted - 2007.10.17 22:34:00 - [216] 400 explosion radius to 450 explosion radius equates to how much damage loss vs smaller ships? If you need a specific example let's say vs Brutix and then vs a Thorax or Omen. --- Put in space whales!
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.17 22:42:00 - [217] Originally by: Lisento Slaven 400 explosion radius to 450 explosion radius equates to how much damage loss vs smaller ships? If you need a specific example let's say vs Brutix and then vs a Thorax or Omen. Heavy. Painter. Drone.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.17 22:45:00 - [218] Edited by: Goumindong on 17/10/2007 22:46:50 Originally by: Lisento Slaven 400 explosion radius to 450 explosion radius equates to how much damage loss vs smaller ships? If you need a specific example let's say vs Brutix and then vs a Thorax or Omen. 0% loss of damage to a cruiser sized ship that has an MWD on. About 12.5% loss of damage to a ship not using an MWD with a sig under 400. Between 0 and 12.5% for a ship with a sig between 400 and 450 not running an mwd. All in all after the rof changes that relates to an 18.5% dps increase for torps against any target with a sig under 400 not using an mwd and 33% against targets with sigs greater than 450 or cruisers and above using an mwd.
Jirai Grepher Creative Destruction EternalRising	Posted - 2007.10.17 22:53:00 - [219] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Solant Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Lazuran 3 x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I = +52% range Which, incidentally, allows the raven to outdamage pulse geddons loading scorch and still hit to 50km range. ever watched a torpedo travel 50km? yeah. id say its fine like this. at least we have an option, now. 10 seconds to hit on a raven with 3 velocity rigs, which isnt slow at all. But ya, I agree its a great change, might use it instead of my geddon for small gangs now. Mabey not old fashioned torp slow. But 10 seconds in pvp is a long time still. Especially in Small gang pvp The former and original Pel Mel All posts made reflect my opinion and not that of my Corp/Alliance.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.17 23:22:00 - [220] Ooh, another torp boost!

dAn melax Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.10.18 07:21:00 - [221] wicked! ;D 450 explo radius now makes me happy, time to get a raven before prices go up, up, up xD Play Hard. Go Pro.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.18 10:31:00 - [222] Originally by: Gamesguy Copied this from SHC, it looks to be ok, I think the need for a painter would balance out the capless part. Numbers (fully skilled, with a 3x bcs raven) : - Before : T1 torps = 619 dps to 127km @ 2813m/s, 400m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity CN torps = 711 dps to 127km @ 2813m/s, 400m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity Jav torps = 523 dps to 158km @ 8438m/s, 400m exp radius 750m/s exp velocity Rage torps = 743 dps to 34km @ 2250m/s, 600m exp radius 150m/s exp velocity - After : T1 torps = 823 dps to 30km @ 3375m/s, 530m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity CN torps = 946 dps to 30km @ 3375m/s, 530m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity Jav torps = 696 dps to 158km @ 8438m/s, 400m exp radius 750m/s exp velocity Rage torps = 988 dps to 34km @ 2250m/s, 600m exp radius 150m/s exp velocity This is before drones are taken into account. So Javelins are just a hell of alot better now or is that a typo? [Balance] The Caldari problem.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.18 10:36:00 - [223] Update to numbers
FinalFlash84	Posted - 2007.10.18 10:45:00 - [224] Well, i think that the fitting reqs are a bit too high (compared to other close range weapons). For example: 6x Siege Missile Launcher II and ONE 100mn Mwd CPU 471/875 PG 11300.2/11875 And this is with a maxed Character. I was thinking of a armor tank, but with the pg on the raven, there is no way you can fit one (not even a shield tank due to the need of scram, mwd and painter)
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.18 10:50:00 - [225] Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 18/10/2007 10:50:18 Originally by: FinalFlash84 Well, i think that the fitting reqs are a bit too high (compared to other close range weapons). For example: 6x Siege Missile Launcher II and ONE 100mn Mwd CPU 471/875 PG 11300.2/11875 And this is with a maxed Character. I was thinking of a armor tank, but with the pg on the raven, there is no way you can fit one (not even a shield tank due to the need of scram, mwd and painter) The raven still isnt a solo boat, it now can reach an awesome damage at a very high range with free damage choice (omg caldari is good!! woohhoo!) and still put quite an awesome tank. Forget this tackle gear, your mates can do that.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.18 11:04:00 - [226] Edited by: welsh wizard on 18/10/2007 11:04:24 Can someone confirm approximate javelin stats with skills on sisi? Surely they haven't just buffed the dps by 33% with a better explosion radius for no penalty? [Balance] The Caldari problem.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.18 11:11:00 - [227] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 18/10/2007 11:04:24 Can someone confirm approximate javelin stats with skills on sisi? Surely they haven't just buffed the dps by 33% with a better explosion radius for no penalty? Confirumed, 696 DPS with 350m/s explosion radius, 500m/s explosion velocity, and a range of 45.5km with maxed support skills+ raven 5. Outdamages pulse geddon, uses no cap, isnt stuck with 80% EM damage.... say goodbye to the last niche Amarr had.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.18 11:14:00 - [228] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 18/10/2007 11:04:24 Can someone confirm approximate javelin stats with skills on sisi? Surely they haven't just buffed the dps by 33% with a better explosion radius for no penalty? penalty is less range.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.18 11:16:00 - [229] Edited by: Gamesguy on 18/10/2007 11:20:11 Edited by: Gamesguy on 18/10/2007 11:19:26 Originally by: FinalFlash84 Well, i think that the fitting reqs are a bit too high (compared to other close range weapons). For example: 6x Siege Missile Launcher II and ONE 100mn Mwd CPU 471/875 PG 11300.2/11875 And this is with a maxed Character. I was thinking of a armor tank, but with the pg on the raven, there is no way you can fit one (not even a shield tank due to the need of scram, mwd and painter) No you're still stuck on the active tank or armor tank+ew mindset, try this: 6x Siege Missile Launcher II (CN torpedos) 1x Quad Lif MWD 1x Warp Disruptor II 1x Large Extender II 2x Invul II 1x Fleeting web OR Medium inject. 3x BCU II 1x 1600mm plate 1x DCU II 2x TP-900 Heavy Painter Drones, 5x Warrior IIs. 3x Core Defense Field Extender I 1027 DPS, max velocity 1013 m/s, effective hp 106k, has point, then either a web or an injector(only need injector for running the mwd for longer than 3-4 cycles). For gangsetup, drop the web for an injector and point for a shield extender and you can hit 121k effective hp(needs a very cheap 1% pg implant, maybe the 3% one if you dont have awu 5), if you really want you can also lose the injector for another extender/invul/em hardener(doesnt matter), which will bring you to about 137k effective hp. Dropping the 1600mm plate means you wont need pg implant, and you will lose about 5k effective hp if you replace with PDU.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.18 11:22:00 - [230] 46km, ouch. Still good changes overall. [Balance] The Caldari problem.

welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.18 11:24:00 - [231] You figured out that dps Gamesguy or is there an updated version of EFT/Quickfit already? [Balance] The Caldari problem.
FinalFlash84	Posted - 2007.10.18 11:39:00 - [232] Edited by: FinalFlash84 on 18/10/2007 11:39:28 @Gamesguy: thx for the advise, you were right about the active tank. Maybe it's really better to fit a passive tank.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.18 11:49:00 - [233] Edited by: d026 on 18/10/2007 11:54:21 this fits with my skills. effective hp 119k (128k in gang). 124k em, 123k kin, 118k therm, 153k exp. 3 x Ballistic Control System II 1 x Damage Control II 1 x 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1 x Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets 1 x Target Painter II 1 x Stasis Webifier II 2 x Invulnerability Field II 1 x Large Shield Extender II 6 x Siege Missile Launcher II 2 x Light Neutron Blaster II (drone killers, can fit rails to..) 3 x Core Defence Field Extender I Grid: 11824/11875 - CPU: 865/875 DPS: 1177 with hammerhead II's + blasters DPS: 945 only torps Resists: 54/62/73/81. em,therm,kin,exp Speed: 1013/ms Align time: 24,3 sec ahh crap disregard this! i had still slaves in my eft clone:)
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.18 12:01:00 - [234] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 18/10/2007 11:54:21 this fits with my skills. effective hp 119k (128k in gang). 124k em, 123k kin, 118k therm, 153k exp. 3 x Ballistic Control System II 1 x Damage Control II 1 x 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1 x Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets 1 x Target Painter II 1 x Stasis Webifier II 2 x Invulnerability Field II 1 x Large Shield Extender II 6 x Siege Missile Launcher II 2 x Light Neutron Blaster II (drone killers, can fit rails to..) 3 x Core Defence Field Extender I Grid: 11824/11875 - CPU: 865/875 DPS: 1177 with hammerhead II's + blasters DPS: 945 only torps Resists: 54/62/73/81. em,therm,kin,exp Speed: 1013/ms Align time: 24,3 sec ahh crap disregard this! i had still slaves in my eft clone:) ok without slaves it doesent look much worse.. its 114k effective hp instead.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.18 12:03:00 - [235] Originally by: welsh wizard You figured out that dps Gamesguy or is there an updated version of EFT/Quickfit already? welsh max possible dps on the new raven will be (tII equipp no faction bcu's & implants): 1387.71 damage per second!
Zana Kito Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.18 12:03:00 - [236] Hopefully armarr gets some boosts too.. cos these changes are simply awesome for caldari pvp. Extreme dps at close range, great dps to 45km.. wow.. no cap use, and selectable damage type, immune to turret disruption and neuts. What exactly would the abba and geddon have to offer to rival this?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.10.18 12:07:00 - [237] Originally by: Zana Kito What exactly would the abba and geddon have to offer to rival this? Spiffy gold color? Extreme-strength self-directed cap drain? Buzzing sounds?
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.18 12:21:00 - [238] Originally by: Zana Kito Hopefully armarr gets some boosts too.. cos these changes are simply awesome for caldari pvp. Extreme dps at close range, great dps to 45km.. wow.. no cap use, and selectable damage type, immune to turret disruption and neuts. What exactly would the abba and geddon have to offer to rival this? convo me ingame i buy you a raven:)
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.18 12:37:00 - [239] Originally by: Goumindong 0% loss of damage to a cruiser sized ship that has an MWD on. So how often do you see cruisers going under 250 m/s yet keeping their mwd on? When being shot at with torps? Against a target going 1500m/s it will do 50% of it's damage, against a 2000 m/s target it will do some 35% of it's damage.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.18 12:53:00 - [240] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Siege Missile Launcher II Siege Missile Launcher II Siege Missile Launcher II Siege Missile Launcher II Siege Missile Launcher II Siege Missile Launcher II [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I 10x Light Target Painter Drone (enough spare) 5x light drones whatever Very nice damage, enough range to use the mwd only to get to gate etc, some tank to survive a while.

hellwarrior Caldari Porta Incendia 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.10.18 13:29:00 - [241] Just to be an ass. NICE LAUNCHERS 4 SALEH
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.18 13:43:00 - [242] Originally by: hellwarrior Just to be an ass. NICE LAUNCHERS 4 SALEH Who would pay that kind of money for modules that arent good in first place?
Transcendant One	Posted - 2007.10.18 13:47:00 - [243] Someone who owns a state issue?
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.18 13:49:00 - [244] Originally by: Transcendant One Someone who owns a state issue? Oh yeah that would fall in line ^^
dAn melax Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.10.18 16:19:00 - [245] btw. what about capital torps? ;D will phoenix be pimped ? xD Play Hard. Go Pro.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.18 21:34:00 - [246] Originally by: dAn melax btw. what about capital torps? ;D will phoenix be pimped ? xD They would need to put in capital cruise else the phoenix will become utterly useless, with a range of maybe 50km it would be dead in the water against eneymies warping on 100-150km, which is pretty common
Ally Poo Caldari Executive Mindframe	Posted - 2007.10.18 22:12:00 - [247] Edited by: Ally Poo on 18/10/2007 22:12:27 Originally by: Benn Helmsman Originally by: hellwarrior Just to be an ass. NICE LAUNCHERS 4 SALEH Who would pay that kind of money for modules that arent good in first place? Estamel Mods is <rack for caldari pilots, everyone wants them, no one can afford them. but on the topic, its about time caldari gets a boost in pvp, plus, its gives more of a reason for more ranged BS pilots, and short ranged pilots to run. its been years...of people running from blasters, AC's and pluse lazers (or beam i forget) and why? thier DPS. giving caldari pilots some power is about time. i think ppl are worried b/c thier blasterthrons and geddons are no longer the best in the gang or fleet. plus, no more ravens sitting at 100km shooting you untill u manage to get in range. just for the raven to turn around, bm warp away and warp back in 100km from the bm to shoot you again from 100kms. i say its about time. and i also think that ccp will nerf/buff other mods, turrets etc etc. ============================================ Sleep is for the Dead.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.18 22:21:00 - [248] Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Goumindong 0% loss of damage to a cruiser sized ship that has an MWD on. So how often do you see cruisers going under 250 m/s yet keeping their mwd on? When being shot at with torps? Not often, but that is more because they are exploding than because their mwd is off. Against a 1500m/s cruiser large guns will do about 15-25% dps. Against a 2000m/s cruiser large guns will do about 0 dps.
Natalie Jax	Posted - 2007.10.18 22:29:00 - [249] Edited by: Natalie Jax on 18/10/2007 22:30:08 Sounds to me like this change makes the Raven more versatile. It's not like the Caldari were exactly hurting PvE, now is it? Also sounds like and AC/Torp Typhoon would be pretty vicious, but I'm not too knowledgeable on Minnie ships despite my avatar.
Gun Hog Caldari Ardent Industrial Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.19 07:18:00 - [250] Edited by: Gun Hog on 19/10/2007 07:19:30 Edited by: Gun Hog on 19/10/2007 07:19:10 I do not see why CCP does not just add a new type called "Assualt Torpedoes". That way, PvE pilots would keep their torps, and PvPers would get thier much desired high-damage short-range option for missiles. Everybody wins! EDIT: To clarify, the assult torps would have the new stats, and normal torps would remain unchanged. ------------------------------------------ The original ultra noob 0.0 carebear

dAn melax Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.10.19 07:39:00 - [251] Originally by: Gun Hog Edited by: Gun Hog on 19/10/2007 07:19:30 Edited by: Gun Hog on 19/10/2007 07:19:10 I do not see why CCP does not just add a new type called "Assualt Torpedoes". That way, PvE pilots would keep their torps, and PvPers would get thier much desired high-damage short-range option for missiles. Everybody wins! EDIT: To clarify, the assult torps would have the new stats, and normal torps would remain unchanged. Short Range BS-size weapon = Torps! Long Range BS-size weapon = Cruise Missiles! stop whinning and start PvP instead of carebearing ... Play Hard. Go Pro.
Dakisha Mining Bytes Inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.10.19 12:41:00 - [252] Edited by: Dakisha on 19/10/2007 12:43:35 Okay; someone asked for an EFT setup that gave 6x torps, MWD, injector, large armour repper via EFT. I got bored over lunch - sooo: 6x t2 siege 1x 100MN MWD II, 1x heavy cap boost II, 1x 24k scram, 2x phased muon, 1x target painter 1x LAR II, 1x MAR II, 1x Dmg ctrl II, 1x EANM II, 1x rcu II 2x ancillary current router 1x aux nano pump W/ lvl 5 everything, thats a not so hot 300dps tank and a 1k/s top speed. But it's possible. Fiddle w/ the mids or lows to your hearts content. Almost 100 cpu and 700 PG spare. edit: If you want the 3x BCU 2's, it's possible to fit - just your 'tank' drops to 125dps and a 10% explosive resist.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.19 12:45:00 - [253] Originally by: Dakisha Edited by: Dakisha on 19/10/2007 12:43:35 Okay; someone asked for an EFT setup that gave 6x torps, MWD, injector, large armour repper via EFT. I got bored over lunch - sooo: 6x t2 siege 1x 100MN MWD II, 1x heavy cap boost II, 1x 24k scram, 2x phased muon, 1x target painter 1x LAR II, 1x MAR II, 1x Dmg ctrl II, 1x EANM II, 1x rcu II 2x ancillary current router 1x aux nano pump W/ lvl 5 everything, thats a not so hot 300dps tank and a 1k/s top speed. But it's possible. Fiddle w/ the mids or lows to your hearts content. Almost 100 cpu and 700 PG spare. edit: If you want the 3x BCU 2's, it's possible to fit - just your 'tank' drops to 125dps and a 10% explosive resist. You are aware of the cost of these PG rigs?
Dakisha Mining Bytes Inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.10.19 12:56:00 - [254] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Originally by: Dakisha snip You are aware of the cost of these PG rigs? Didn't say it was practical or cheap, just that I was bored and someone asked for an EFT fit :)
Transcendant One	Posted - 2007.10.19 12:59:00 - [255] Regardless of the cost, it's not a useful fit.


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