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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.10.13 11:43:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Tassi This change is good, everyone who thinks otherwise needs to buy new brain.
So everyone who does not play the game the way you deem the only rightful one needs to buy a new brain?
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Gamesguy
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.13 11:44:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Solant
No, but I dislike people spreading misinformation and not looking at the whole picture for the sake of their argument. Makes me feel like I'm watching CNN.
Misinformation? What misinformation?
Quote:
Yes, well, its stupid to say that MWD is not an option in 0.0 just because Triumvirate uses them on ravens in fleet ops. Tell me I'm wrong, cause I dont recall fitting a MWD on every ship I fly in 0.0 (including ravens), and I haven't done so bad. My point was, now ravens have a real need for mwd/close engagements. I've never had real problems keeping up in a raven, if you have your wits about you and arent just following ts orders like a zombie its not actually that bad.
We dont fly ravens for fleet, thats a kickable offense.
Its not about keeping up, its about mwding out of bubbles, without it you just die, its pretty simple.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.13 11:46:00 -
[33]
The funny thing about raven and mwd is that... siege & mwd actually do fit. When you have to fit 2 pg mods just to fit "standard fleet setup" come back. We are comparing to geddon alot, how about mega beams & mwd? Or even tachyons as downgrading isn't real option(lol @ cruise, lol @ dual heavy beams). For some reason cruise missiles use less pg/cpu while beeing long range as opposed to guns.
Anyway, maybe minmatar training wasn't that bad idea... because new typhoon will be funny.
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Tassi
The Cruciform The Church.
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Posted - 2007.10.13 11:49:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Tassi This change is good, everyone who thinks otherwise needs to buy new brain.
So everyone who does not play the game the way you deem the only rightful one needs to buy a new brain?
YES
The Cruciform recruitment |
Shaemell Buttleson
Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny
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Posted - 2007.10.13 11:54:00 -
[35]
With Rockets and HAM's being short range it makes sence that the other "unguided" missile was bought more in line like them.
I doubt now I'll be ever changing from Cruise to Torps for mission running now PvP will be a different matter though as the Raven is great at spitting out pain and tanking alot of it as well.
*snip* Do not use your signature to troll or insult other EVE players even if the little dweebs deserve it! -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:03:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 13/10/2007 12:05:28 30km effective range for the Raven is still way better than what blasterthrons and autopests can do at those ranges, and even pulse geddons have their DPS seriously degraded over 20km.
So you'll need a target painter? Fine, it will replace the web that gunships need.
In short, don't complain, caldari users, you still have it better than the others on the pve side, and for pvp you can really get ganky now. You'll still suck at solo pvp, but that's not new... ------------------------------------------
What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs. |
Solant
Minmatar Ventis Secundis R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:05:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Solant
No, but I dislike people spreading misinformation and not looking at the whole picture for the sake of their argument. Makes me feel like I'm watching CNN.
Misinformation? What misinformation?
I dunno, comparing torps to medium range turrets and completely neglecting the fact that they are two vastly different forms of damage.
Like saying ravens are going to outdamage geddons.. thats fine, you can say that if you want, but there are a lot of variables that make it completely silly to just say. Its the kind of thing that makes irrational people just instantly believe you and then start massive whine posts and flamewars because now they are "sure" that geddons are outclassed by ravens. etc,etc, etc, forum madness ensues. over what? misinformation. assumptions. untested content.
has anyone actually looked into what kind of realistic damage these new torps are going to do against various classes of ships?
posting DPS stats on paper, assuming full skills... blah. all this is going to do is give people an incorrect impression of what the new torps are going to be. somehow I dont think they are going to straight up dole out 1000dps, myself.
regardless, I dont even see why we are bothering to argue at this point seeing as we agree in principle- this is a good change.
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Solant
Minmatar Ventis Secundis R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:06:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Shadowsword 30km effective range it's still way better than what blasterthrons and autopests can do at those ranges, and even pulse geddons have their DPS seriously degraded over 20km.
So you'll need a target painter? Fine, it will replace the web that gunships need.
In short, don't complain, caldari users, you still have it better than the others one the pve side, and for pvp you can really get ganky now. You'll still suck at solo pvp, but that's not new...
30km should be about right for a geddon or tempest to close range ... youll probablytake a volley of torps in the process but you will get there, and ravens go down pretty quick when theyre set up with torps..
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Zekspir
Gens Pontus Euxin
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:11:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Zekspir on 13/10/2007 12:14:27 . . .
Ty OP for pointing out these changes . . . I missed them in my runthrough on the test server.
IMO a long awaited change for the better . . . and certainly one that will let slip the forum whines (to paraphrase a long deceased someone ). Both a boost and nerf, pvp and pve-wise, but one that will put the caldari missile users back in the pvp game.
Before the "OMG pwnmobile overpowered WTH " etc. start spewing on the threads, stop for a moment and think about it. IF you fly Caldari ships (and this change affect us caldari mostly) you must know that our tank will go out the window in order to fit the Ravens for solo-pvp. Mid-size gang pvp will not be affected and remain as is now - a tackler allows a Raven to maximise damage without gimping the tank . . .actually any BS user, regardless of race can fit pretty much whatever he/she wants in a gang. And on the other side of the gun, if you are solo, doesn`t matter what you fit if you encounter a gang . . . can you say gang-bang ? And don`t even start with the "you Caldari can choose damage type" and all that crap . . . fly a Raven in a 1vs1 or 1vs2 and see how that helps ya . . . before you can determine the best damage type, you will have wasted soo much time it will be too late. Plus, more missile types = less numbers of each missile/torp and less cap boosters. Uh, and can you say "no FoF torps" before the "caldari can use FoF missiles if jammed" rant ?
Simply put, will do as the other races do - maximise the gank to kill the other before your inadequate tank breaks. Break him before he breaks you. And this ROF change will allow to overcome the shortcomings of the torps - flight time and below average DPS.
It will somewhat hurt the pve-players, yet the cruise missile are more than adequate . . . you can still pve with ease, it will just take a bit longer. I can happily live with that.
As an interesting side-effect . . . t2 torp launchers will be again very sought after, since the range and explosion radius nerf of the t1 torps will make the t2 torps very attractive again, for those users who don`t want to waste a slot for the MWD and/or TP . . .
Uh, I also smell some fitting issues with the t2 siege/MWD/lots of BCU combo, plus the tank problems, but since the rigs I bet will see some very creative load-outs . . . can`t wait to test some myself :D
Caldari back in the gank game . . . good news
------------------------------------------------------ . . . File not found. Should I fake it ? (Y/N) . . . |
Zekspir
Gens Pontus Euxin
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:13:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Zekspir on 13/10/2007 12:14:06 Double post
------------------------------------------------------ . . . File not found. Should I fake it ? (Y/N) . . . |
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Hairtrigger
Sanguine Legion
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:14:00 -
[41]
well im lookin forward to slappin 5 DG seige on a widow
Bet they wont be so bad on the golem as well now
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:18:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 13/10/2007 12:19:55 *oops* nvm.
Paradox V2.0 is recruiting! |
Dragon Lord
Caldari InQuest Ascension R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:18:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Hairtrigger well im lookin forward to slappin 5 DG seige on a widow
Bet they wont be so bad on the golem as well now
Nah try t2 siege and javs on the golem and it will pwn big time
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HEINZ ZERO
PsyCorp INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:26:00 -
[44]
nice change
only thing is that my range with standard Torps should be 24,696 m but it¦s only ~21 km (acceleration time)
now waiting for the Khanid Apoc
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dAn melax
Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:26:00 -
[45]
oh damn I've missed the fact that torp has bigger explo radius now ... hmm maybe a gruided prec skill will be aplying to torps too, dont you think that would be awesome? ;D Play Hard. Go Pro. |
Dragon Lord
Caldari InQuest Ascension R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:32:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Dragon Lord on 13/10/2007 12:32:03
Originally by: dAn melax oh damn I've missed the fact that torp has bigger explo radius now ... hmm maybe a gruided prec skill will be aplying to torps too, dont you think that would be awesome? ;D
yeh but way overpowered, jave torps still have 400m exp radius though and there as fast as cruise missiles good range on them 2, 130km+
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:42:00 -
[47]
Interesting.
Have to look at numbers before I start ranting. Wonder how 'old' CN siege launchers with 3x CN BCU with CN ammo compare against 'new' javelin torps in T2 launchers with 3x CN BCU. By initial impression without doing the math the theoretical dps seem to be roughly in the same ballpark (withing approx 5% if I would guestimate).
It just might work out alright at the end with missionrunners just switching to t2 launchers and javelins again. Especially taking into account 33% RoF gain in 'new' launchers.
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Dragon Lord
Caldari InQuest Ascension R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:49:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Carniflex Interesting.
Have to look at numbers before I start ranting. Wonder how 'old' CN siege launchers with 3x CN BCU with CN ammo compare against 'new' javelin torps in T2 launchers with 3x CN BCU. By initial impression without doing the math the theoretical dps seem to be roughly in the same ballpark (withing approx 5% if I would guestimate).
It just might work out alright at the end with missionrunners just switching to t2 launchers and javelins again. Especially taking into account 33% RoF gain in 'new' launchers.
Ok before with 7 dread siege and faction cn torps i got 7s rof and 984dmg per torp so 984dps. I got over 1000 myself because i had a few officer siege on.
After with javs and torp spec lvl1 i get 722dmg per torp and 5.88s rof so thats 860dps with maxed torp spec i belive the rof is 5.42s please correct me if im wrong, so 932dps, so its pretty close, also remember that javs travel ALOT faster so less defenders will hit.
Thats on my pimped cnr but the comparison should be the same for any raven or cnr setup.
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Setana Manoro
Gallente Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.13 13:14:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Setana Manoro on 13/10/2007 13:15:18
Originally by: Solant
Originally by: Gamesguy
And torps dont use cap, whats your point?
Defender missiles? You really enjoy grasping at straws dont you?
No, but I dislike people spreading misinformation and not looking at the whole picture for the sake of their argument. Makes me feel like I'm watching CNN.
Quote:
Oh please, you started the original flame with the me not flying raven comment. You reap what you sow.
Yes, well, its stupid to say that MWD is not an option in 0.0 just because Triumvirate uses them on ravens in fleet ops. Tell me I'm wrong, cause I dont recall fitting a MWD on every ship I fly in 0.0 (including ravens), and I haven't done so bad. My point was, now ravens have a real need for mwd/close engagements. I've never had real problems keeping up in a raven, if you have your wits about you and arent just following ts orders like a zombie its not actually that bad.
Bullcrap. If you get in a dictor bubble at 50km from the gate, watch as your gang m8s can reach the gate in under 1 min, while you take 10 minutes to reach it. That is one of the reasons you fit a MWD in 0.0, ALWAYS fit one. I've been in alliances where you if you didn't have a MWD fitted - no matter what ship you were in, you would be sent back home.
I'm not neutral in RAGOON vs BOB, I just dislike both sides. :) |
Setana Manoro
Gallente Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.13 13:23:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Tassi Nice quote pyramid.
This change is good, everyone who thinks otherwise needs to buy new brain.
That is a stupid comment to make when you fly just 1 race. I fly gankageddons, gank neutron mega's, gank ravens, and 800mm ac pests. While there was a real need to boost Caldari short-range pvp, my pure amarr character is livid, as he is restricted to no mwd/active tank and just 2 types of damage and for that he gets 1200 dps instead of the raven's 1000 and no tracking issues. My Gallente character is a bit jelous that the Raven got buffed. My minnie char just realised that he cannot fly his ac-pest against a raven with a reasonably good character - unless he uses ECM drones or something like that.
Overall, i'm happy i will take my Raven out for a spin - i was already doing 900 dps with it on a close range torp setup, but it feels like a slap in the face for Amarr and Minnie ppl - except for the nano-phoon users that now deal more dps.
I'm not neutral in RAGOON vs BOB, I just dislike both sides. :) |
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Matyae
Clumsy Dummy Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2007.10.13 13:46:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Matyae on 13/10/2007 13:52:02
Edit : Nevermind, I'm totally wrong.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.10.13 13:48:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Numbers (fully skilled, with a 3x bcs raven) :
- Before : T1 torps = 619 dps to 127km @ 2813m/s, 400m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity CN torps = 711 dps to 127km @ 2813m/s, 400m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity Jav torps = 523 dps to 158km @ 8438m/s, 400m exp radius 750m/s exp velocity Rage torps = 743 dps to 34km @ 2250m/s, 600m exp radius 150m/s exp velocity
- After : T1 torps = 823 dps to 30km @ 3375m/s, 530m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity CN torps = 946 dps to 30km @ 3375m/s, 530m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity Jav torps = 696 dps to 158km @ 8438m/s, 400m exp radius 750m/s exp velocity Rage torps = 988 dps to 34km @ 2250m/s, 600m exp radius 150m/s exp velocity
This is before drones are taken into account.
Regluar Raven, 4x CN BCU, 6x CN launchers with CN ammo is 572 dps to 253 km (249 km target cap) - CN Cruise 769 dps to 127 km - CN Torpedo (722 dps with 3x CN BCU thats more common on torpedoes)
Comparing realistic 'old' CN fitted siege damage (722 dps) to 'new' Javelin damage (696 dps, mind that this is with T2 BCU's not navy ones) the difference is around 4%, If you fit navy BCU's instead of T2 you will end up actually with better (altho very very slightly) dps than before. In any case it will be better than CN cruise setup with 4 navy BCU's.
So for PvE Siege setups it just means that people will siwtch to T2 sieges and start using javelin ammo instead of faction ammo.
After looking at those numbers I think this change is good. T2 torpedoes were rather useless before, this change will breath some life into T2 javelin torps (they are also considerably cheaper than faction ammo). It makes CN sieges also considerably cheaper most likely (or people just stop cashing them in for LP) as those missionrunners who care about affectivity will sowitch to T2 launchers from faction.
Numbers look a bit different for CNR's ofc, but their relation to each other holds.
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Dragon Lord
Caldari InQuest Ascension R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.13 13:56:00 -
[53]
Yeh being trying out t2 siege and javs on my cnr in sisi and the dps might be lower bt im getting through missions faster thanks to the speed of javs compared to normal torps. I did try my old setup but the range on normal torps is so bad that it took me forever to get in range.
Basically it means faction torps will only realy be used in pvp and faction launchers i cant see being used at all because of the range nerf.
All in all i like the changes and if the Golem does get a 100% dmg bonus its gonna have some major gank
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Neena Valdi
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.13 14:01:00 -
[54]
I guess chinese farmers are already celebrating.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.13 14:06:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Neena Valdi I guess chinese farmers are already celebrating.
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zilllii
Squirrel Power
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Posted - 2007.10.13 14:12:00 -
[56]
torpedoes should be extreme short range. if you want range use cruise missiles thats what they are there for.
imagine the crying and whining if pulse lasers had 150k range with all ammo types and megabeams up to 300k with all ammotypes.
phuuuuleeeees sthu whiners.
on another note... make torpedoes have splash damage again pls.
gimme bigger letter count in my sig so it wont cut off everything damnit!!!! |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.10.13 14:30:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Solant
Originally by: Shadowsword 30km effective range it's still way better than what blasterthrons and autopests can do at those ranges, and even pulse geddons have their DPS seriously degraded over 20km.
So you'll need a target painter? Fine, it will replace the web that gunships need.
In short, don't complain, caldari users, you still have it better than the others one the pve side, and for pvp you can really get ganky now. You'll still suck at solo pvp, but that's not new...
30km should be about right for a geddon or tempest to close range ... youll probablytake a volley of torps in the process but you will get there, and ravens go down pretty quick when theyre set up with torps..
your raven can MWD away, too. True, when soloing they have a paper tank, but doing megathron-like DPS without bothering with a 4km optimal, and without cap, would make the ubersolopwnmobiles if they could sustain a good tank, too. And when in gang, they're going ot be scary ships... ------------------------------------------
What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs. |
Hyuuga Veralis
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2007.10.13 14:34:00 -
[58]
530m explosion radius? So much for torps doing full damage to BSes. -------------- Fulfilling 0.0 Ammo needs since 2 days after being made. |
Incantare
Caldari Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.13 14:36:00 -
[59]
The increased explosion radius is complete ****.
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Elmicker
Black Sea Industries Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.13 14:37:00 -
[60]
946dps before drones out to 36km.
******* want.
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