Originally by: Barkode

---

So the answer is to sit on a gate all day in cloaked BS?


Looks like Tri had a good time.

---

Originally by: mechtech

---

A nano ship only does about 1/2 the damage as a normal ship, and has no tank other than speed.

---

Originally by: Riebart Norith

---

Edited by: Riebart Norith on 18/10/2007 03:12:09

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Stuff...

I'm gonna have to call proof or stfu on this one.

---

Setup used:

100MN MWD II (Overloaded)
3x Local hull ODIs, 2x Local hull nanofibers, 2x local hull i-stabs
2x polycarb II, 1x low-friction II
HG Snake set (Don't forget the omega!)

Navigation 5

EFT says 6457, and it is low on it's estimates when using mass reduction. Actual max was closer to 7000 (6875 or something). I rounded to 7km/s for dramatic effect. Sue me.

Replacing it with all-faction/T2 gear, with the applicable hardwirings (CY-2 and MY-2) and EFT spits out 9221 m/s .

Happy now? Try and tell me this is a natural use of a Domi. Remember this is post nerf. pre-nerf this would be up around 11km/s I think. We're talking serious ISK investment, but a Domi that can outrun everything else in Eve that isn't also a nanoship is a problem. The Domi should max out with this setup at 5km/s or so, not 9.

If you still don't believe me, try it out on Multiplicity or SiSi (No uber skills now).

Have fun!

Edit: No faction stuff, just T2 lows and a T2 MWD, EFT reports 7100 m/s......So if you can say that Nanoships are ok, then you're justifying a 7km/s Domi. Think about that for a second...

P.S: With T1 rigs, and T2 mods, you get 6500 m/s or so.

---

Originally by: Danari

---

Well, to DMC, honestly 70% of your fleet's effectiveness was wasted on things like BS with sniper fittings, Huginns with t1 webbers, very few fast tacklers, and way too many t1 ships.

---

Originally by: Dark Motoko

---

Ideas such as a webbing interdiction sphere for example

---

Originally by: CCP Wrangler

---

Well boohoo.

---

Originally by: Danari

---

Tri's tactics are much more complex than simply 'focus fire', and you can see that by the fact that the first several kills had just 1-2 ships on them, while other ships had a lot of damage stacked on them. There's a lot of individual decisions being made rather than simply orbiting primary at 5km like a moth spiraling into a flame.

---

Originally by: Damon Blood

---

But I do have to say it is very hard for an FC to call targets when the Primary is 10K from them, and when the next update happens they are 75K.

---

Originally by: Cpt Branko

---

Basically, the fight illustrates why speed is just fine now - it enables a better led, better-fitted gang with more thought given into fittings and tactics to beat the other, slower and heavier gang, although with some losses. This looks like perfect balance

---

Originally by: Cpt Branko

---

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/10/2007 13:15:15
Now read this:

Originally by: Damon Blood

---

But I do have to say it is very hard for an FC to call targets when the Primary is 10K from them, and when the next update happens they are 75K.

---

What works in a fleet fight doesn't work vs (or for) a speed gang, while you're trying to fly the same way, with hastily assembled fits which aren't built to counter (by your own admission). I think it's actually working as intended.

---

Originally by: CCP Tuxford

---

Why don't we like people going really really fast
One of the biggest reasons is the "feel" of the game. Combat in EVE was always supposed to be more about tactics and strategy rather than twitch movement. I know a lot of the community enjoy that style of gameplay but it just isn't EVE.

Another reason has to do with game mechanic and can be summed up to pretty much the same arguement as when warp core stabilizers where balanced. When going into a fight we want people to commit to a fight. That means when you go into a fight you are risking your ship or ships, not just warping in on anything and if you can't handle it you just warp off.

---

Originally by: Dark Motoko

---

Now before I begin I request that this thread not be flamed or trolled as I'm going to try to make a serious point.

In recent months, I've noticed a trend become more and more obvious, as power in pvp slowly turns entirely over to who can field the largest groups of the fastest ships.
I have no shame in showing you this killboard report of a battle between DMC defenders and an attacking force of Triumvirate; http://www.eve-dmc.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=6224

In it you can clearly see how combatting any of the ships in this Tri fleet would have required at least one stasis webifier on him to allow him to be hit effectively and even if you did, his enertia and remaining speed would often be adequate to take him out of any dictor sphere, or webifier range to where he could warp away happily.

I remember CCP's alteration of warp core stabilisers, aimed at stopping pilots from being able to enter combat and then being able to easily leave at will. This is precisely what the game mechanics now allow with these speed setups, and I heartily congratulate those alliances who have succeeded in gathering such large groups of them, but something must change.

There are counters, of course. The fast tackler with a 10km webifier. The huginn or rapier with their ranges of up to 30-40km with the right equipment. However the list ends there. Countless times, I've witnessed a speed fit jump into system, and then run back onto the gate in order to escape, and even hastily arranged groups to cover both sides usually fail.

With groups able to field this many speed fits, it's easy for them to seek out your interceptors, and easily anihilate them, and it's well known that webbing recons have weak tanks. So your webbing power can be easily destroyed, and then your remaining ships are at the speed fits mercy, as your primary target runs from the battle whenever they wish or get into trouble. If CCP wanted to stop this with WCS, why is this so different?

Again, vaga and ishtar pilots please don't flame this thread. Your ships should remain strong/fast by all means, but even you must admit that you primarily use them because there are few counters to them.

---

Originally by: shinsushi

---

Originally by: CCP Tuxford

---

Why don't we like people going really really fast
One of the biggest reasons is the "feel" of the game. Combat in EVE was always supposed to be more about tactics and strategy rather than twitch movement. I know a lot of the community enjoy that style of gameplay but it just isn't EVE.

Another reason has to do with game mechanic and can be summed up to pretty much the same arguement as when warp core stabilizers where balanced. When going into a fight we want people to commit to a fight. That means when you go into a fight you are risking your ship or ships, not just warping in on anything and if you can't handle it you just warp off.

---

---

Originally by: Sharupak

---

I think you will find it most helpfull.
Linkage

---

Originally by: Semkhet

---

Originally by: shinsushi

---

Originally by: CCP Tuxford

---

much speed = bad(6 months ago.)

---

CCP is wrong, I am right

---

Well there you have it. I guess this must be Semkhet's game, and not CCP's.

Originally by: Dark Motoko

---

Now before I begin I request that this thread not be flamed or trolled as I'm going to try to make a serious point.

In recent months, I've noticed a trend become more and more obvious, as power in pvp slowly turns entirely over to who can field the largest groups of the fastest ships.
I have no shame in showing you this killboard report of a battle between DMC defenders and an attacking force of Triumvirate; http://www.eve-dmc.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=6224

In it you can clearly see how combatting any of the ships in this Tri fleet would have required at least one stasis webifier on him to allow him to be hit effectively and even if you did, his enertia and remaining speed would often be adequate to take him out of any dictor sphere, or webifier range to where he could warp away happily.

I remember CCP's alteration of warp core stabilisers, aimed at stopping pilots from being able to enter combat and then being able to easily leave at will. This is precisely what the game mechanics now allow with these speed setups, and I heartily congratulate those alliances who have succeeded in gathering such large groups of them, but something must change.

There are counters, of course. The fast tackler with a 10km webifier. The huginn or rapier with their ranges of up to 30-40km with the right equipment. However the list ends there. Countless times, I've witnessed a speed fit jump into system, and then run back onto the gate in order to escape, and even hastily arranged groups to cover both sides usually fail.

With groups able to field this many speed fits, it's easy for them to seek out your interceptors, and easily anihilate them, and it's well known that webbing recons have weak tanks. So your webbing power can be easily destroyed, and then your remaining ships are at the speed fits mercy, as your primary target runs from the battle whenever they wish or get into trouble. If CCP wanted to stop this with WCS, why is this so different?


We need one of two things. Either the microwarpdrives or the shiptypes so compatible with them need to be rebalanced, or new counters need to be introduced. Ideas such as a webbing interdiction sphere for example, or for the base range of webbers to be increased would fit well. If not, I predict in months to come we'll start to see more and more larger fleets with nothing but speed tanked ships and eve will all be about how fast you can go.


Again, vaga and ishtar pilots please don't flame this thread. Your ships should remain strong/fast by all means, but even you must admit that you primarily use them because there are few counters to them.

---