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Nighthawk dps vs other Commands

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Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.21 10:22:00 - [61] Edited by: Ogul on 21/10/2007 10:35:02 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Sure and lets also remove 300dps from its tank too so it gets inline with other commandship. Agreed. If you compare an active tanked Nighthawk (all med slots used for tank) to a similarly fit (all low slots for Astarte/Absolution, all med slots in the case of the Sleipnir) field command ship of the other races you will find that they are comparable. The Nighthawk's tank only becomes superior if you devote all med AND low slots to tanking (which the Sleipnir can't do as easily because of the shield boost bonus). If you really want to do that (which means being a uselessly slow brick of a ship doing pathetic damage) you might as well buy 6 (!) drakes for the price of one nighthawk and lose a tiny bit of damage over it. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.21 10:25:00 - [62] Edited by: Gypsio III on 21/10/2007 10:27:02 Originally by: Talio ZomB Originally by: Gypsio III You can get 756 DPS out of a NH, with max skills (ha), drones and 3% implants, and still fit a solid tank. You won't have much mobility, but getting in range isn't a problem thanks to Javs. and what fitting would that be??? cuz I only have spec 5 to go before max skills I have 5% to HAM dmg, 3% to ROF and 4 CN BCS I cant get 756 dps, more like 640 (I'll edit later with the exact value) or so using CN ammo, and rage is only a tad higher at a sacrifice to range and hit quality or u refering to an estamel fit that the every day pee bod has lying about?? 6x HAM II (terror rage) 3x BCS II 3% HAM damage implant 3% missile ROF implant 5x hobgoblin IIs Gives 756 DPS. You can actually fit a light neutron II in the last sapre slot, that takes it up to 793 DPS!
Aramendel Amarr North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.21 11:45:00 - [63] Originally by: Ogul If you compare an active tanked Nighthawk (all med slots used for tank) to a similarly fit (all low slots for Astarte/Absolution, all med slots in the case of the Sleipnir) field command ship of the other races you will find that they are comparable. The problem is that a full tank abso or astarte do less dps than a full (med) tank NH because they have no damagemods. The sleipnir does not have that problem, but it is far more range dependant than the NH.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.21 12:15:00 - [64] Originally by: Aramendel The problem is that a full tank abso or astarte do less dps than a full (med) tank NH because they have no damagemods. The sleipnir does not have that problem, but it is far more range dependant than the NH. And in turn it can't tackle/mwd/ewar. I don't see how that is a problem. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Fuazzole	Posted - 2007.10.21 13:09:00 - [65] These threads will never end, if you were to swap the ships stats it wouldn't take long for a boost NH's tank inline with the other comands, and boost dmg range, 15km with T2 range ammo is usless when tackled at 20km Thiers only 1 thing wrong with the NH, the +dmg to kinetic, but even at that, duels vs EM toating HAM spammers usualy meet a very close end
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.21 14:55:00 - [66] Originally by: Talio ZomB Originally by: Gypsio III You can get 756 DPS out of a NH, with max skills (ha), drones and 3% implants, and still fit a solid tank. You won't have much mobility, but getting in range isn't a problem thanks to Javs. and what fitting would that be??? cuz I only have spec 5 to go before max skills I have 5% to HAM dmg, 3% to ROF and 4 CN BCS I cant get 756 dps, more like 640 (I'll edit later with the exact value) or so using CN ammo, and rage is only a tad higher at a sacrifice to range and hit quality or u refering to an estamel fit that the every day pee bod has lying about?? He is adding drones. You arent.
Matiaj	Posted - 2007.10.21 16:02:00 - [67] Edited by: Matiaj on 21/10/2007 16:05:32 The NH doesn't need more DPS imo. The NH's problem is that it needs both a RCU and an ACR to fit ham + mwd + inj + large shield booster. The other command ships do not have this problem. - Astarte : 7x neutron + mwd + inj + 2x mar with one ACR, or a mix of neutron/ion without any fitting mod - Sleipnir : can even fit an XL booster -_- - Absolution : 7x heavy pulse + mwd + inj + 2x mar without any fitting mod. Solution : - Give the NH a slight PG boost, so that people can fit 7x ham + empty remaining highslot without fitting mods (or just an ACR maybe but no RCU!) - Now that the fitting mod is not mandatory anymore, change the layout to 7/6/4 like the Drake. The NH would then be a nice ship : - Less dps than the other races field CS but more range - More tank than the other races field CS but no tackle ; or some tackle using the new 6 medslots but then less tank than the other races field CS.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.21 17:20:00 - [68] Or you could just reduce HAM fittings like needs to be done.
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.21 17:28:00 - [69] Originally by: Goumindong Or you could just reduce HAM fittings like needs to be done. I actually agree with Goumindong here. There's seriously something wrong - someone must be burning a nerfbat in effigy to the gods of paradox, somewhere. Seriously, though HAMs take waaaay too much to fit. To fit the required mods for a HAM setup (6 HAM II, MWD, large shield booster II, medium electrochem cap injector) you have to use two reactor control II's. 1 RCU II or PDU II would be fine, but two RCU II's is just ridiculous. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Subruz	Posted - 2007.10.21 17:32:00 - [70] Agreed...
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2007.10.21 17:36:00 - [71] I hate to say it, but I agree with him also. HAM fittings need to be reduced. I'd go one further and say that Torp fittings should be adjusted downward, especially with the new changes. It will bring it in line with its new close fighting role.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.21 18:47:00 - [72] Originally by: Wrayeth Originally by: Goumindong Or you could just reduce HAM fittings like needs to be done. I actually agree with Goumindong here. There's seriously something wrong - someone must be burning a nerfbat in effigy to the gods of paradox, somewhere. Seriously, though HAMs take waaaay too much to fit. To fit the required mods for a HAM setup (6 HAM II, MWD, large shield booster II, medium electrochem cap injector) you have to use two reactor control II's. 1 RCU II or PDU II would be fine, but two RCU II's is just ridiculous. HAM and siege fitting has been a fairly common complaint[siege not anymore if these changes go through] It doesnt make much sense that the short range weapons are harder to fit than the long range weapons, since the ship is expceted to be closer and needing to fit more powergrid intensive mods. I was chatting with one of the guys who works sisi a bit ago, and brought it up, he said he would take it to the balance guys, so who knows what will happen
Matiaj	Posted - 2007.10.21 18:49:00 - [73] Edited by: Matiaj on 21/10/2007 18:52:16 Originally by: Goumindong Or you could just reduce HAM fittings like needs to be done. Yep, I talked about that it in my post actually. But I don't think it would be enough in the case of the NH, unless you want to give HAMs the same pg reqs as assault launchers. And I still can't see the point of a 7/5/5 layout. I mean, what are lowslots used for? - Armor tank : sucks for a ship that has a shield resist bonus - Nano : I doubt the NH can be made into a good nanoship, better use a Cerb instead - Damage mods : 3 are enough - SPR spam : ... Seriously, this 5th low is only useful for a RCU which shouldn't be even needed in the first place if the ham grid usage and the NH powergrid were reasonable. 3x bcs + dcu = ftw.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.21 19:01:00 - [74] Capacitor, speed, lock range/time/targets, fitting, more damage, armor resists[helpfull for an active shield tank and Hit point buffer tank]
Tuschii Filthy Scum	Posted - 2007.10.21 19:13:00 - [75] Originally by: Fehnrail Nighthawk's tank far surpasses Drake's. Nighthawk's DPS far surpasses Drake's. Nighthawk is the tankiest of FCSs. The only real change we need is to have missile damage bonus switched from kinetic to rainbow. Aye, I agree with this Signature Your signature exceeds the 24000 byte limit allowed on the forums. -Darth Patches
Allestin Villimar	Posted - 2007.10.21 19:34:00 - [76] I wouldn't call the NH tankiest of command ships. I can get a tank on a sleipnir that handles 3x as much dps as a nighthawk. Admittedly it's active, but it's nice to have a ship that doesn't have to run from 5 battleships.
Raham Teeth Of The Hydra R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.21 22:44:00 - [77] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Raham SPRs I think i know why you lost all your space. Anyway, 554 from heavies and 668 from HAMs. Yeah, Shield Power relay, it's a passive tanking mod and works better than PDU or a power diagnostics unit, if you didn't know that one either. But I guess using better fittings must be why we lost our space. Want to show some math on the 554 with heavies btw?
Ivor Gunn No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition	Posted - 2007.10.21 22:55:00 - [78] Originally by: Goumindong I was chatting with one of the guys who works sisi a bit ago, and brought it up, he said he would take it to the balance guys, so who knows what will happen This just in: Goons have dev friends!!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.21 23:32:00 - [79] Originally by: Ivor Gunn Originally by: Goumindong I was chatting with one of the guys who works sisi a bit ago, and brought it up, he said he would take it to the balance guys, so who knows what will happen This just in: Goons have dev friends!! Full disclosure. I was on sisi at the time.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.21 23:34:00 - [80] Originally by: Raham Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Raham SPRs I think i know why you lost all your space. Anyway, 554 from heavies and 668 from HAMs. Yeah, Shield Power relay, it's a passive tanking mod and works better than PDU or a power diagnostics unit, if you didn't know that one either. But I guess using better fittings must be why we lost our space. Want to show some math on the 554 with heavies btw? Actually a PDU is loads better, because 5% more shields is all that really matters, and the pg and cap dont hurt either. But yea, dont fit SPRs to nighthawks that you plan on taking into combat.
Raham Teeth Of The Hydra R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.21 23:49:00 - [81] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Raham Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Raham SPRs I think i know why you lost all your space. Anyway, 554 from heavies and 668 from HAMs. Yeah, Shield Power relay, it's a passive tanking mod and works better than PDU or a power diagnostics unit, if you didn't know that one either. But I guess using better fittings must be why we lost our space. Want to show some math on the 554 with heavies btw? Actually a PDU is loads better, because 5% more shields is all that really matters, and the pg and cap dont hurt either. But yea, dont fit SPRs to nighthawks that you plan on taking into combat. 5% shields is all that matters? Thats odd, I had thought recharge rate was what mattered for passive tanked ships, not total shield Try it out, this is speaking from personal experience, a nighthawk with SPRs tanks far better than one with PDUs
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.22 00:04:00 - [82] Originally by: Raham 5% shields is all that matters? Thats odd, I had thought recharge rate was what mattered for passive tanked ships, not total shield Try it out, this is speaking from personal experience, a nighthawk with SPRs tanks far better than one with PDUs plural? how in the world do you get multipule pdus/sprs on the thing? P.S. passive tanks are hitpoint tanks, not recharge tanks.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.22 00:20:00 - [83] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Aramendel The problem is that a full tank abso or astarte do less dps than a full (med) tank NH because they have no damagemods. The sleipnir does not have that problem, but it is far more range dependant than the NH. And in turn it can't tackle/mwd/ewar. I don't see how that is a problem. Exactly, so they are balanced NOW. They wont be if you give NH MORE damage. K? Gank interfers with absolution and astarte tank. Gank interfers with nighthawks ability to fit ew in mids. Nighthawk can tank very good compared to these two. And you want to give it more dps? This would mean the NH could drop a little tank (=get inline with tanks of absolution and astarte), fit ew in mids AND do the same dps as the other commandships. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Drop the case.
Raham Teeth Of The Hydra R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.22 01:44:00 - [84] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Raham 5% shields is all that matters? Thats odd, I had thought recharge rate was what mattered for passive tanked ships, not total shield Try it out, this is speaking from personal experience, a nighthawk with SPRs tanks far better than one with PDUs plural? how in the world do you get multipule pdus/sprs on the thing? P.S. passive tanks are hitpoint tanks, not recharge tanks. Passive tanks are definitely not just hitpoint tanks. The point of a passive tank is to not have to use an active shield booster, and this doesn't work for long if you have no recharge rate. And the whole plural question? Nighthawk has more than one lowslot, though I'm certainly hoping that was some sort of bizzare goon joke. Maths:Just using 10,000 raw shields as a base 3x PDU IIs and 2 core defense field purger rigs. 10,000 x 1.05 x 1.05 x 1.05=11576.25 shields 1400sec recharge rate x .915 x .915 x .915 x .85 x.85= 774.9 recharge rate 11576.25/774.9=14.9 shields/sec 3x SPR IIs and 2 core defense field purger rigs. 10,000 x 1 x 1 x 1 = 10000 shields 1400sec recharge rate x .76 x .76 x .76 x.85 x .85= 444.0 recharge rate 10000/444.0=22.5 shields per second
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.22 12:13:00 - [85] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Nighthawk can tank very good compared to these two. And you want to give it more dps? This would mean the NH could drop a little tank (=get inline with tanks of absolution and astarte), fit ew in mids AND do the same dps as the other commandships. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Drop the case. First, no I don't want to give it more dps. (Maybe via the back route by increasing powergrid and/or lowering fitting requirements of HAM launchers. And even then I don't care much because the ship is too bloody expensive to fly a lot in pvp.) It's just that the 1000 dps passive tank always comes up whenever the nighthawk is mentioned. A setup like that is about as dangerous to others as a docked ship (and still tanks less ), and I cannot really believe anyone to actually use it because of that fact. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
CountDrakula Fracked Inc	Posted - 2007.10.22 12:30:00 - [86] The problem coems not that the NH can;t achieve dps or that it can passive tank like a mean machine. Its that there's no middle ground. Gank fit astarte still boast something of a tank if not much, gank fitted NH's boast no tank and cn;t compete with the astartes DPS. I can not fit to my nighthawk a dps that compares to other gank fits. I can outank another Command with a passive fit, but for firepower purposes my Nighthawk limps in last. Comparison, Ion fitted semi tank Astarte, and 425mm ac tank seliphner Astarte - 500/600 Dps with a semi decent dual rep tank and al the tackle requirements Selpiener - 400/500 Dps nice tank and with mwd and warp d i can tackle most things Nighthawk gank fit - 400/500 dps no tank, and handles like a wet blanket
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.22 12:45:00 - [87] Originally by: CountDrakula gank fitted NH's boast no tank you armor tanking a NH?
DARTHxFREE G.R.U.N.T	Posted - 2007.10.22 13:03:00 - [88] Raw DPS isn't so important, Effective DPS and aplication of DMG matter more. Unless the target sit's still a Blaster needs a lot of planning, effort and resource's to get into position. On 15-20km nano tackled situations null blasters can't save you. Kin/Therm or EM/Therm for lasors is very limiting. Astarte is more preferable then a Nighthawk for shooting big targets maybe, but most targets arn't big targets I find. Chasing after HAC's, frigs, everything small or even other commands with comparable speed, with an Overloaded MWD doing 1500m/s just doesn't work. >:-E3 /join Cheeze & Whine Club
Aramendel Amarr North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.22 13:24:00 - [89] Originally by: CountDrakula Comparison, Ion fitted semi tank Astarte, and 425mm ac tank seliphner Astarte - 500/600 Dps with a semi decent dual rep tank and al the tackle requirements Selpiener - 400/500 Dps nice tank and with mwd and warp d i can tackle most things Nighthawk gank fit - 400/500 dps no tank, and handles like a wet blanket Your problem is that you ignore range. Ships are not instantly at their optimal. Neither is their regular combat scenario a 1v1 vs each other.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.22 13:51:00 - [90] Originally by: Raham Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Raham 5% shields is all that matters? Thats odd, I had thought recharge rate was what mattered for passive tanked ships, not total shield Try it out, this is speaking from personal experience, a nighthawk with SPRs tanks far better than one with PDUs plural? how in the world do you get multipule pdus/sprs on the thing? P.S. passive tanks are hitpoint tanks, not recharge tanks. Passive tanks are definitely not just hitpoint tanks. The point of a passive tank is to not have to use an active shield booster, and this doesn't work for long if you have no recharge rate. And the whole plural question? Nighthawk has more than one lowslot, though I'm certainly hoping that was some sort of bizzare goon joke. Maths:Just using 10,000 raw shields as a base 3x PDU IIs and 2 core defense field purger rigs. 10,000 x 1.05 x 1.05 x 1.05=11576.25 shields 1400sec recharge rate x .915 x .915 x .915 x .85 x.85= 774.9 recharge rate 11576.25/774.9=14.9 shields/sec 3x SPR IIs and 2 core defense field purger rigs. 10,000 x 1 x 1 x 1 = 10000 shields 1400sec recharge rate x .76 x .76 x .76 x.85 x .85= 444.0 recharge rate 10000/444.0=22.5 shields per second Yea, that extra 7.6 shields per second at max recharge are really going to overcome the 1576 extra shields you get base you get from the PDUs! In 207 seconds... Or, 3 minutes... If you are spending 3 minutes at peak recharge then your enemy is doing how much dps to you? 100, maybe? Fake P.S. you dont ever fit more than one passive tanking module on a nighthawk. Dont do it, take this as advice so that when we get a decent fight when we come to take your space next time. Fake P.P.S. You are super-tanking this thing arent you? Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

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