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E Vile
Fifth Exiled Legion
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.18 12:36:00 -
[1]
Nighthawks dps sucks vs the other combat command ships.
All command ships can tank well
The armor tankers can even tank well while also having goodies like MWD,scram,web
At least give it a 7th launcher. Even dmg fit the dps is 
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.18 12:38:00 -
[2]
Linkage
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Shadowsword
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.10.18 12:45:00 -
[3]
HAM need a boost, but the NH itself is fine. You do less dps, but that's the price that go with capless, longer ranged weapons.
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What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs. |
Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.18 12:47:00 -
[4]
As if Nighthawk prices werent high enough, I think prices are going up now due to the impending torp Nerf. (It went from 165ish to near 200million now.) With a 7th launcher im sure the price would shoot to 250 million.
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.18 13:31:00 -
[5]
You can get 756 DPS out of a NH, with max skills (ha), drones and 3% implants, and still fit a solid tank. You won't have much mobility, but getting in range isn't a problem thanks to Javs.
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VJ Maverick
Caldari
Maverick Specialized Services
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Posted - 2007.10.18 13:40:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: E Vile
Nighthawks dps sucks vs the other combat command ships.
All command ships can tank well
The armor tankers can even tank well while also having goodies like MWD,scram,web
At least give it a 7th launcher. Even dmg fit the dps is
There is a difference between theoretical and practical DPS. Nighthawk DPS always hits with no range or tracking to worry about. That's why guns do so much more damage then missiles. Because they miss a lot more than missiles. It's balanced.
Originally by: Marquis Dean
As with most threads in Ships & Mods, it ended up with Ryysa yelling at everyone.
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Shereza
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Posted - 2007.10.18 14:05:00 -
[7]
Quote:
Nighthawk DPS always hits with no range or tracking to worry about.
Somehow I doubt that HAMs always hit, period, end of story.
If I'm not mistaken in PvE defender missiles somehow magically work for NPCs and can take out a few missiles here and there.
Also, in PvP it seems that, while unlikely to actually happen since it would usually involve running away without warping, interceptors, vagabonds, stabbers(?), and similar ships can outrun HAMs, especially the T1 and rage variants.
I'm not trying to say that the DPS difference is significant, perhaps not even really noticeable, but the possibilities are there and blanket statements are often bad juju. 
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Ademaro Imre
Caldari
Eye of God
O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.10.18 14:15:00 -
[8]
Originally by: VJ Maverick
Originally by: E Vile
Nighthawks dps sucks vs the other combat command ships.
All command ships can tank well
The armor tankers can even tank well while also having goodies like MWD,scram,web
At least give it a 7th launcher. Even dmg fit the dps is
There is a difference between theoretical and practical DPS. Nighthawk DPS always hits with no range or tracking to worry about. That's why guns do so much more damage then missiles. Because they miss a lot more than missiles. It's balanced.
Missile damages are subject to to target speed and target size, like turrets are.
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.18 14:23:00 -
[9]
Quote:
Nighthawk DPS always hits with no range or tracking to worry about.
Rubbish. 
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.18 14:29:00 -
[10]
Well, he got one thing right... HAMs hit without regards to relative tracking issues or personal movements.
However, it's actually much, MUCH worse against anything THAT DOES MOVE faster as a snail in the first place, and utter rubbish against anything smaller as a cruiser on top of the speed issues.
For all intents and purposes, you CAN always manerouver your own ship to STILL hit adequately (moreso if you are in a very fast/agile ship), but you can do absolutely zilch, nichts, nada when you're using HAMs that you couldn't do better and in more possible ways with far less trouble from any turret user's ship.
And let's not even mention time-delay from firing to actual hit, or any other number of problems (like UTTER CRAP agility of Caldari missile boats) that plague the missile users in general and Caldari in particular.
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Subruz
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Posted - 2007.10.18 15:01:00 -
[11]
I don't see how a NH is worth the skill and isk investment in comparison to a Drake. Aside from its ability to field command modules it doesn't provide much more to a gang than what a drake does. Both ships are just as horrible in 1vs1 due to having difficulties fitting a scrambler, although a NH will survive more 1vs1 encounters no doubt (but when it doesn't it'll cost you 5 times as much).
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goodby4u
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.18 15:08:00 -
[12]
Originally by: E Vile
Nighthawks dps sucks vs the other combat command ships.
All command ships can tank well
The armor tankers can even tank well while also having goodies like MWD,scram,web
At least give it a 7th launcher. Even dmg fit the dps is
I dont think so,as ive fought some NH's before i say they have very nice passive tanks,although thats not entirely helpfull in solo pvp,in gangs it can still be helpfull.
__________________________________________
Yes it is great being amarr.
I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space. |
Kuno Hida
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Posted - 2007.10.18 15:20:00 -
[13]
Folks, I think you're missing the use of the Nighthawk.
6 missiles with a ROF bonus, a frankly spectacular tank, and command modules..for 1v1?
1vs1 is *NOT* where you want that ship. If the pilot has minimum leadership skills they need to go back to a Drake. With appropriate skills, the Nighthawk is just what it needs to be - Sturdy enough to last a few barrages, and give an edge to its squadron.
Yes, Squadron. If you're just running around in a gang, then why did you train the leadership requirements? Once in a gang, the bonuses it gives affect everyone, further bolstering its survivability.
Even without command modules, you can still mount a rail or blaster and have cap galore for that last bit of punch.
You probably need to rethink what you're trying to use it for.
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NoNah
Unseen University
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Posted - 2007.10.18 15:23:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Subruz
I don't see how a NH is worth the skill and isk investment in comparison to a Drake. Aside from its ability to field command modules it doesn't provide much more to a gang than what a drake does. Both ships are just as horrible in 1vs1 due to having difficulties fitting a scrambler, although a NH will survive more 1vs1 encounters no doubt (but when it doesn't it'll cost you 5 times as much).
imho, that says more about the drake than about the nighthawk.
Figured I'd do a lil comparison, the absolution versus the nighthawk. Both firing at an omnitanked Lachesis 80km away(Scram distance with a domi scram and max skilled lach is 83km, inluding gang bonus.).
Damage dealt by a NH(6x HML II, 3x BCU II, CN Havoc) - 200 dps
Absolution(Mega Pulse II, 3x Heat Sink,3x Tracking Computer II, 1x Tracking Enhancer II, Aurora M(T2)) - 86 dps
And this is without utilizing the 25% damage bonus on the nighthawk, using 9 slots of the nighthawk and 13 of the Absolution. And using t1 ammo on the nighthawk, t2 on the absolution. Oh, and ignoring the fact that the Absolution is fighting outside its optimal and would therefor suffer from accuracy issues. And absolution is supposed to be on of the top damage command ships.
I hope you can see the point of the example.
Postcount: 794885
[02:40:22] <elmickers> if you're caldari in a fleet fight, bring a corp
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Fehnrail
Caldari
Colossus Technologies
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Posted - 2007.10.18 16:35:00 -
[15]
Nighthawk's tank far surpasses Drake's.
Nighthawk's DPS far surpasses Drake's.
Nighthawk is the tankiest of FCSs.
The only real change we need is to have missile damage bonus switched from kinetic to rainbow.
...I am a part of all that I have met,
Yet all experience is an arch wherethro'
Shines that untravell'd world, whose margin fades
For ever and for ever as I move... |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.10.18 16:37:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Gypsio III
You can get 756 DPS out of a NH, with max skills (ha), drones and 3% implants, and still fit a solid tank. You won't have much mobility, but getting in range isn't a problem thanks to Javs.
Thats about what an absolution has when gank fitted. So what is the problem of the op? Ah right now i got it, he wants the nighthawk to tank 1k dps and do 900dps damage at the same time. Thread closed. Not much more to say really.
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Mush Morton
Caldari
Wolf Echelon
Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.10.18 17:13:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Mush Morton on 18/10/2007 17:15:53
Those who believe the Drake can compete with the Nighthawk are mistaken in one important aspect. The Drake provides a relatively inexpensive means of tanking somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000 dps when well fitted, flown, and with the requisite shield skills. The NH can accomplish the same feat, and a bit more tankable dps, while still pushing out significantly more damage. To achieve damage output even approaching a NH, a drake must make non-trivial sacrifices to it's tanking capability. The sum of damage output and tankable dps will ALWAYS be significantly higher for the NH - period. If you're not able to reproduce this on EFT or the test server, you're fitting the ships improperly.
A good way of picturing what a NH really represents is to imagine a Drake being crossed or "mating" with a Cerberus. It combines the tank of the Drake (and then some) with the damage bonuses of the Cerberus. Granted you lose the range bonus of the Cerberus in the exchange, but for what it was designed to do, the NH is one of the finest ships in EVE for small-gang pvp. Add in the capability to build an exceptional passive tank and shoot fof missiles very well, and the NH represents one of the hardest ships to kill in Eve.
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Molon Labe! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.18 17:17:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Akita T on 18/10/2007 17:18:05
Originally by: Fehnrail
Nighthawk's tank far surpasses Drake's.
You lost one mid (LSE) and one rig (Purger), you gained a low (ok, SPR can come here), and you get less base shield.
On TH/KI, yes, far surpasses.
On EM/EXP, not so much.
Originally by: Fehnrail
Nighthawk's DPS far surpasses Drake's.
It's a simple matter of 7 (Drake) vs 8 (equivalent post RoF) NH launchers.
Whoop-tee-doo, a +14.28% DPS increase.
If you count on that extra lowslot as supplementary BCU for gank, you just lost the tank advantage on EM/EXP and reduced the TH/KI significantly.
Originally by: Fehnrail
Nighthawk is the tankiest of FCSs.
Depends by what standards. I'd say the Astarte makes a pretty damn good competitor, and it outdamages the NH by far.
Originally by: Fehnrail
The only real change we need is to have missile damage bonus switched from kinetic to rainbow.
Actually, it could use a SIGNIFICANT powergrid increase (to make fiting HAMs possible).
And also maybe (just maybe, not saying it is advisable, just a possibility) switching the precision bonus to a missile flight time bonus, ESPECIALLY (but not only) in case HAMs get a base DPS boost but a range nerf somewhat in-line with torpedo changes.
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Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2007.10.18 17:35:00 -
[19]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: Subruz
I don't see how a NH is worth the skill and isk investment in comparison to a Drake. Aside from its ability to field command modules it doesn't provide much more to a gang than what a drake does. Both ships are just as horrible in 1vs1 due to having difficulties fitting a scrambler, although a NH will survive more 1vs1 encounters no doubt (but when it doesn't it'll cost you 5 times as much).
the comparison would have been a whole lot more useful was it for a range where pvp actually happens. tis pretty rare for a pvp fight to go down at anything like that kind of range in my limited experience.
imho, that says more about the drake than about the nighthawk.
Figured I'd do a lil comparison, the absolution versus the nighthawk. Both firing at an omnitanked Lachesis 80km away(Scram distance with a domi scram and max skilled lach is 83km, inluding gang bonus.).
Damage dealt by a NH(6x HML II, 3x BCU II, CN Havoc) - 200 dps
Absolution(Mega Pulse II, 3x Heat Sink,3x Tracking Computer II, 1x Tracking Enhancer II, Aurora M(T2)) - 86 dps
And this is without utilizing the 25% damage bonus on the nighthawk, using 9 slots of the nighthawk and 13 of the Absolution. And using t1 ammo on the nighthawk, t2 on the absolution. Oh, and ignoring the fact that the Absolution is fighting outside its optimal and would therefor suffer from accuracy issues. And absolution is supposed to be on of the top damage command ships.
I hope you can see the point of the example.
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Subruz
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Posted - 2007.10.18 18:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mush Morton
The NH can accomplish the same feat, and a bit more tankable dps, while still pushing out significantly more damage....
...the NH represents one of the hardest ships to fight against or kill in Eve.
Who has argued that the NH isn't a superior vessel? I did however raise the point that its extra DPS isn't very impressive and arguably not worth its hefty pricetag and skill reqs. Also, NH's tanking capabilities are more often wasted than not since you're not going to be killing anything solo and you'll be targeted last in gang engagements.
Command Modules are very nice and all but if I got to choose between a NH or a Raven in my gang post-torp buff I know what I'd pick... Comparing a 30mil ship to a 150mil ship doesn't do the Drake any justice.
Btw, NH is sure one of the toughest ships around in EVE but it's hardly very hard to fight against. Just ignore it and kill his mates, once that's done you can choose to kill him or simply warp off.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.10.18 18:37:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Subruz
Originally by: Mush Morton
The NH can accomplish the same feat, and a bit more tankable dps, while still pushing out significantly more damage....
...the NH represents one of the hardest ships to fight against or kill in Eve.
Who has argued that the NH isn't a superior vessel? I did however raise the point that its extra DPS isn't very impressive and arguably not worth its hefty pricetag and skill reqs. Also, NH's tanking capabilities are more often wasted than not since you're not going to be killing anything solo and you'll be targeted last in gang engagements.
Command Modules are very nice and all but if I got to choose between a NH or a Raven in my gang post-torp buff I know what I'd pick... Comparing a 30mil ship to a 150mil ship doesn't do the Drake any justice.
Btw, NH is sure one of the toughest ships around in EVE but it's hardly very hard to fight against. Just ignore it and kill his mates, once that's done you can choose to kill him or simply warp off.
Uhm with high skills a nighthawk can reach around 767dps. How many vessels you encounter can tank this? Very few. I dont know what people are smoking but whats this whine about it not having dps?
You know all ships have to more or less comprimize between tank and gank. No one forces you to fit 1000dps tank with 300dps and letting you be targeted last for this reason....
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Reto
The Last Resort
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Posted - 2007.10.18 18:46:00 -
[22]
Originally by: E Vile
Nighthawks dps sucks vs the other combat command ships.
All command ships can tank well
The armor tankers can even tank well while also having goodies like MWD,scram,web
At least give it a 7th launcher. Even dmg fit the dps is
dude...no.
every combat comand can tank well. yes, but they sure cant permatank 800dps and more. secondly u dont have to worry about cap or range dictation in ur ship. u have a ship which can jump into an enemy gang and fire away without the risk of being wtfbbqed in 3 secs or getting in rnage of ur primary target. in a gang u will be most likely the last one which will be targeted for that reason. also u can choose ur dmgtype and carry a LOAD of stuff in ur cargo bay which is bigger than my megathrons one. wtf is ur problem ?
Originally by: s4mp3r0r
"Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
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Kuno Hida
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Posted - 2007.10.18 18:59:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Subruz
Command Modules are very nice and all but if I got to choose between a NH or a Raven in my gang post-torp buff I know what I'd pick...
Enjoy. I'll take the shield/armor/speed/resistance bonuses for the whole gang.
I'm guessing our difference of opinion stems from you not having someone with trained up leadership skills. If your teammate doesn't have the leadership skills, that raven will be the way to go.
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.18 19:18:00 -
[24]
Quote:
Actually, it [NH} could use a SIGNIFICANT powergrid increase (to make fitting HAMs possible). And also maybe (just maybe, not saying it is advisable, just a possibility) switching the precision bonus to a missile flight time bonus,
These. NH PG is awful. You can't fit a gang mod, HMs and MWD on a NH, without fitting mods. If you want to fit a gang mod, HAMs, LSB II, med cap booster and MWD, you need 3 RCU IIs. And AWU V.
The missile precision bonus is useless, basically. It only helps against slow-moving frigs/AFs, and they wouldn't last long under normal HM fire anyway. If it's supposed to help the NH hit small stuff, as befitting the support/antisupport role of a CS, then a missile explosion velocity, like that on the Heretic, would be far better.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.10.18 19:23:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Quote:
Actually, it [NH} could use a SIGNIFICANT powergrid increase (to make fitting HAMs possible). And also maybe (just maybe, not saying it is advisable, just a possibility) switching the precision bonus to a missile flight time bonus,
These. NH PG is awful. You can't fit a gang mod, HMs and MWD on a NH, without fitting mods. If you want to fit a gang mod, HAMs, LSB II, med cap booster and MWD, you need 3 RCU IIs. And AWU V.
The missile precision bonus is useless, basically. It only helps against slow-moving frigs/AFs, and they wouldn't last long under normal HM fire anyway. If it's supposed to help the NH hit small stuff, as befitting the support/antisupport role of a CS, then a missile explosion velocity, like that on the Heretic, would be far better.
You cant fit full rack oh heavies, dual repper, cap booster, mwd and gang mod on an absolution either.
Cant fit full rack of neutrons on astarte
What is your point? Oh you want yours to be better or you just have no clue about the other command ships.
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Subruz
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Posted - 2007.10.18 20:08:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Subruz on 18/10/2007 20:07:53
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Uhm with high skills a nighthawk can reach around 767dps. How many vessels you encounter can tank this? Very few.
And how much of your tank did you sacrifice in order to make that happen? HAMs will give anyone grid problems (did you even fit a command module in there?), 767dps isn't great either, not for the pricetag that comes with it. I
- I'd like to see a boost to the usefulness of command modules. It takes alot of hassle to use them (at least if everyone's s'posed to get the right bonuses), not to mention the SP and isk.
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Kailiao
The Black Fleet
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Posted - 2007.10.18 20:21:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Gypsio III
Quote:
Actually, it [NH} could use a SIGNIFICANT powergrid increase (to make fitting HAMs possible). And also maybe (just maybe, not saying it is advisable, just a possibility) switching the precision bonus to a missile flight time bonus,
These. NH PG is awful. You can't fit a gang mod, HMs and MWD on a NH, without fitting mods. If you want to fit a gang mod, HAMs, LSB II, med cap booster and MWD, you need 3 RCU IIs. And AWU V.
The missile precision bonus is useless, basically. It only helps against slow-moving frigs/AFs, and they wouldn't last long under normal HM fire anyway. If it's supposed to help the NH hit small stuff, as befitting the support/antisupport role of a CS, then a missile explosion velocity, like that on the Heretic, would be far better.
Cant fit full rack of neutrons on astarte
Yes you can
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Vandalias
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Posted - 2007.10.18 20:38:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Kailiao
Yes you can
Astarte w/ 7 Neutron IIs - 476.9 grid left
Nighthawk w/ 6 Heavy Assault Missile IIs - 207.1 grid left
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J Valkor
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.10.18 20:52:00 -
[29]
Edited by: J Valkor on 18/10/2007 20:53:37
Akita says a lot of stuff. I wouldn't pay attention. The best experiance is always to fly it yourself and see.
Nighthawk comfortably pumps out 500 DPS at ranges of 75km. More up close with drones, if you are into that sort of thing (pervert). It has a strong tank that is especially good against thermal and kin (the two most common damage types). Its missiles also feth up smaller ships almost instantly. Does it have its issues? Yeah, but most ships do. Like most Caldari ships it is not solo heavy.
And the Drake is no Nighthawk. Not now, not ever.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.10.18 21:29:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kailiao
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Gypsio III
Quote:
Actually, it [NH} could use a SIGNIFICANT powergrid increase (to make fitting HAMs possible). And also maybe (just maybe, not saying it is advisable, just a possibility) switching the precision bonus to a missile flight time bonus,
These. NH PG is awful. You can't fit a gang mod, HMs and MWD on a NH, without fitting mods. If you want to fit a gang mod, HAMs, LSB II, med cap booster and MWD, you need 3 RCU IIs. And AWU V.
The missile precision bonus is useless, basically. It only helps against slow-moving frigs/AFs, and they wouldn't last long under normal HM fire anyway. If it's supposed to help the NH hit small stuff, as befitting the support/antisupport role of a CS, then a missile explosion velocity, like that on the Heretic, would be far better.
Cant fit full rack of neutrons on astarte
Yes you can
oops my bad, sry. Yep you can :-p
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.18 22:57:00 -
[31]
Quote:
You cant fit full rack oh heavies, dual repper, cap booster, mwd and gang mod on an absolution either. Or you just have no clue about the other command ships.
Hmmm. Max skills and 6 HP II, gang mod, named MWD, named cap booster, dual T2 rep on Abso takes 2093 PG, over the max of 1968. So yes, it doesn't fit, and no-one would expect it to.
But it doesn't bloody take 3 T2 RCUs to fit either. Clue? 
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Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.18 23:41:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Uhm with high skills a nighthawk can reach around 767dps. How many vessels you encounter can tank this? Very few. I dont know what people are smoking but whats this whine about it not having dps?
Maybe because you can only get this kind of damage with maxed out skills and fitting FIVE damage mods?
Applying the same crazy skill/fitting scenario to an astarte brings that to more than 1100 dps by the way.
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This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
Incantare
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.10.18 23:46:00 -
[33]
And that's only for kinetic.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.10.19 00:59:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Ogul
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Uhm with high skills a nighthawk can reach around 767dps. How many vessels you encounter can tank this? Very few. I dont know what people are smoking but whats this whine about it not having dps?
Maybe because you can only get this kind of damage with maxed out skills and fitting FIVE damage mods?
Applying the same crazy skill/fitting scenario to an astarte brings that to more than 1100 dps by the way.
No all fittings for damage are made with 3dmg mods for all races. Its standard to use 3 for "gank" fits.
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Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.19 08:27:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Ogul
Maybe because you can only get this kind of damage with maxed out skills and fitting FIVE damage mods?
Applying the same crazy skill/fitting scenario to an astarte brings that to more than 1100 dps by the way.
No all fittings for damage are made with 3dmg mods for all races. Its standard to use 3 for "gank" fits.
In that case your missile dps will not go above 620. Fitting a heavy neutron blaster in the last high slot may polish the numbers but isn't "standard" for gank fits either.
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This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.19 08:45:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ogul
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Ogul
Maybe because you can only get this kind of damage with maxed out skills and fitting FIVE damage mods?
Applying the same crazy skill/fitting scenario to an astarte brings that to more than 1100 dps by the way.
No all fittings for damage are made with 3dmg mods for all races. Its standard to use 3 for "gank" fits.
In that case your missile dps will not go above 620. Fitting a heavy neutron blaster in the last high slot may polish the numbers but isn't "standard" for gank fits either.
Its 692 DPS with 3 BCU and firing CN terror missiles with 5 hobgoblins.
Regardless, NH has significantly superior tank than the other CS(especially astarte) while fielding this dps..
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Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.19 09:37:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Ogul
In that case your missile dps will not go above 620. Fitting a heavy neutron blaster in the last high slot may polish the numbers but isn't "standard" for gank fits either.
Its 692 DPS with 3 BCU and firing CN terror missiles with 5 hobgoblins.
Regardless, NH has significantly superior tank than the other CS(especially astarte) while fielding this dps..
Actually 620 is already with terror rage missiles. I am not arguing the Nighthawk's dps is too low/high or anything, it's just that 770 is pure fantasy and looking at the ship's bonuses it becomes clear that high dps is not what the ship was designed for.
And if you are willing to give up a bit of damage you can get an Astarte that still does more damage, tanks as well and can web/scram or ewar.
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This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
Aramendel
Amarr
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.19 10:03:00 -
[38]
And which has a lower range. HAMs reach up to 20k with t1 and can get ranges of 70k with t2 javs.
The astarte has to move far more to apply its dps.
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Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.19 10:56:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Aramendel
And which has a lower range. HAMs reach up to 20k with t1 and can get ranges of 70k with t2 javs.
... which would be a much more sensible setup than close range gank.
And the 80k range of javelin HAMs is just plain crazy compared to the 40k range of T2 heavy missiles.
---
This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
000Hunter000
Gallente
Magners Marauders
|
Posted - 2007.10.19 11:30:00 -
[40]
to the op...
erm... what?
CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
|
Zerode
|
Posted - 2007.10.20 00:39:00 -
[41]
A faction fitted semipassive NH is absolutely awsome for lvl4 missions, 833dps 24/7 omnitank and 693dps is realy good. Tanked for 2 damage types it's tank is pure rediculess  Pimp the ships  |
darkmancer
|
Posted - 2007.10.20 11:37:00 -
[42]
The Nighthawk in no way sucks. Both it's tank is excellent, and range is good, which almost make up for its below average dps.
I don't think its the ship that need a bonus. I think it's more long range missiles (standards, heavy, cruise) which could do with a v.minor damage boost.
---------------------------------
There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong |
Dionisius
Gallente
Critical Analysis
Te-Ka
|
Posted - 2007.10.20 14:17:00 -
[43]
You guys have pretty awesome comand ships and you still whine?
Missiles hit no matter what, missiles don't have tracking issues, even faster targets have to be carefull while engaging a NH its not just, warp->shoot->boom headshot, you don't even do that with a drake, let alone against a NH.
_____________________________________
Hello, i like to shoot random people.
|
Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.10.20 14:59:00 -
[44]
Quote:
Missiles hit no matter what
Starting a post with rubbish like that is not a good way to be taken seriously... 
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Dionisius
Gallente
Critical Analysis
Te-Ka
|
Posted - 2007.10.20 15:12:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Quote:
Missiles hit no matter what
Starting a post with rubbish like that is not a good way to be taken seriously...
Care to elaborate oh wisest of all station jockeys?I assume that your endless lexic in space combat and the combined fact that you just ate a full 25.5 volume of THE SPACE COMBAT ENCYCLOPEDIA will enlighten all of us on the basics of what happens when you fight a decently fitted missile boat.
_____________________________________
Hello, i like to shoot random people.
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Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.10.20 15:30:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Dionisius
Care to elaborate oh wisest of all station jockeys?I assume that your endless lexic in space combat and the combined fact that you just ate a full 25.5 volume of THE SPACE COMBAT ENCYCLOPEDIA will enlighten all of us on the basics of what happens when you fight a decently fitted missile boat.
He could be pointing out that saying things like
Originally by: Dionisius
Missiles hit no matter what, missiles don't have tracking issues
while at the same time being technically true is just cheap trolling. I could respond now by pointing out that guns don't have flight time or explosion radius/velocity, but I guess you know that already.
---
This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
wictro
|
Posted - 2007.10.20 16:54:00 -
[47]
missiles wont hit targets that travel faster than they do.
missiles get reduction to damage according to the size of target, compared to explosion radius of the missile.
missiles get reduction to damage according to the speed of target, compared to explosion velocity.
missiles range is kinda pointless besides gang/fleet or pve.
range also increases delay, and thats a flaw also.
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Dionisius
Gallente
Critical Analysis
Te-Ka
|
Posted - 2007.10.20 18:08:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Dionisius on 20/10/2007 18:10:36
Originally by: Ogul
Originally by: Dionisius
Care to elaborate oh wisest of all station jockeys?I assume that your endless lexic in space combat and the combined fact that you just ate a full 25.5 volume of THE SPACE COMBAT ENCYCLOPEDIA will enlighten all of us on the basics of what happens when you fight a decently fitted missile boat.
He could be pointing out that saying things like
Originally by: Dionisius
Missiles hit no matter what, missiles don't have tracking issues
while at the same time being technically true is just cheap trolling. I could respond now by pointing out that guns don't have flight time or explosion radius/velocity, but I guess you know that already.
Now this is the part were i tell you to turn your brain on and stop making yourself look like a ******.
Missiles as far as i'm concerned have trouble hitting,
Ceptors
Dictors
Some Recons
Some HACS
Now unless you are sniping, or flying any of the above ships you mostly don't have either, tracking or radious issues.
Vagabonds can fly away from a Nighthawks missiles, cool, but no damage, ceptors, no damage, dictors, no damage, and even these ships can fall for a pilot that counts the cycle of shooting properly instead of just hammering down f1-f5.
Now add to that bit some precision missiles and you do hurt, drones, and actually ships that are speed tanking, they either have to stay and die or fly away.
Comprende einstein?
_____________________________________
Hello, i like to shoot random people.
|
Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.10.20 18:45:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Dionisius
Now this is the part were i tell you to turn your brain on and stop making yourself look like a ******.
Missiles as far as i'm concerned have trouble hitting,
Ceptors
Dictors
Some Recons
Some HACS
Now unless you are sniping, or flying any of the above ships you mostly don't have either, tracking or radious issues.
Vagabonds can fly away from a Nighthawks missiles, cool, but no damage, ceptors, no damage, dictors, no damage, and even these ships can fall for a pilot that counts the cycle of shooting properly instead of just hammering down f1-f5.
Now add to that bit some precision missiles and you do hurt, drones, and actually ships that are speed tanking, they either have to stay and die or fly away.
Comprende einstein?
Actually I understand perfectly. The ad hominem attacks, the pointless number of unrelated facts and the general bile you like to spew. It all adds up to a trollpost well done, congratulations.
Just go ahead and keep spreading the word of the always-hitting no-tracking-issues uberweapon that are missiles, there are enough people who will believe that kind of nonsense.
---
This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
Dionisius
Gallente
Critical Analysis
Te-Ka
|
Posted - 2007.10.20 19:50:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ogul
Originally by: Dionisius
Now this is the part were i tell you to turn your brain on and stop making yourself look like a ******.
Missiles as far as i'm concerned have trouble hitting,
Ceptors
Dictors
Some Recons
Some HACS
Now unless you are sniping, or flying any of the above ships you mostly don't have either, tracking or radious issues.
Vagabonds can fly away from a Nighthawks missiles, cool, but no damage, ceptors, no damage, dictors, no damage, and even these ships can fall for a pilot that counts the cycle of shooting properly instead of just hammering down f1-f5.
Now add to that bit some precision missiles and you do hurt, drones, and actually ships that are speed tanking, they either have to stay and die or fly away.
Comprende einstein?
Actually I understand perfectly. The ad hominem attacks, the pointless number of unrelated facts and the general bile you like to spew. It all adds up to a trollpost well done, congratulations.
Just go ahead and keep spreading the word of the always-hitting no-tracking-issues uberweapon that are missiles, there are enough people who will believe that kind of nonsense.
Actually you started the insults there bud and i just responded according to your level.
Now forget that this char is gallente, i happen to have a caldari one, so i pretty much know the BS you are spreading here about the nighthawk, hell even missiles in general.
I just gave you practicall examples of situations on wich you whine about the ship and simply forget to look at your own inability to deal with circumstances, instead you gave... nothing.
In other words, if you weren't so limited and narrowminded you would not be whining about a perfectly valid and balanced ship.
Try to be more polite next time and don't bother insulting me again, your are not worth another reply on the same tone.
_____________________________________
Hello, i like to shoot random people.
|
Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.10.20 20:06:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Dionisius
Actually you started the insults there bud and i just responded according to your level.
Where?
Originally by: Dionisius
Now forget that this char is gallente, i happen to have a caldari one, so i pretty much know the BS you are spreading here about the nighthawk, hell even missiles in general.
I couldn't care less about your character's race, but please remind me what "BS" I said about the nighthawk or missiles in general.
Originally by: Dionisius
I just gave you practicall examples of situations on wich you whine about the ship and simply forget to look at your own inability to deal with circumstances, instead you gave... nothing.
In other words, if you weren't so limited and narrowminded you would not be whining about a perfectly valid and balanced ship.
Oh please, by all means: show me the whine!
Originally by: Dionisius
Try to be more polite next time and don't bother insulting me again, your are not worth another reply on the same tone.
I really do now know what to say... You start calling people ******s and telling them to turn their brains on and then you expect them to be "more polite"? Maybe I am just too limited and narrowminded to understand that kind of attitude.
---
This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
Cha Jeng
|
Posted - 2007.10.20 21:21:00 -
[52]
Oh my god you caldari people whine all day. A fully fitted out Astarte for DPS has a range of what, like 3km? An takes cap boosters to even hope to run everything to tank that much dps. Yeah you can't gank people with a NH, but you really don't have to worry all that much about being ganked either, as it is tough as hell, and does quite good damage. Caldari are long range burst dps. Yes they don't do as much pure damage as a Astarte, but you can change your damage type <yes I know about the kinetic bonus>, and you have much more available range to fight. If you are just learning that Caldari aren't god at 1v1 you need to wake up. Hell you don't even need a lock to fight if you have fof missiles. The ship is very versitile, and if you are unable to take advantage of this, why not just fly a BS like everyone else who can't understand why people fly T2 ships. Oh and the precision bonus makes your point about smaller ships much less valid.
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Fehnrail
Caldari
Colossus Technologies
|
Posted - 2007.10.20 22:17:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Cha Jeng
Oh my god you caldari people whine all day. A fully fitted out Astarte for DPS has a range of what, like 3km? An takes cap boosters to even hope to run everything to tank that much dps. Yeah you can't gank people with a NH, but you really don't have to worry all that much about being ganked either, as it is tough as hell, and does quite good damage. Caldari are long range burst dps. Yes they don't do as much pure damage as a Astarte, but you can change your damage type <yes I know about the kinetic bonus>, and you have much more available range to fight. If you are just learning that Caldari aren't god at 1v1 you need to wake up. Hell you don't even need a lock to fight if you have fof missiles. The ship is very versitile, and if you are unable to take advantage of this, why not just fly a BS like everyone else who can't understand why people fly T2 ships. Oh and the precision bonus makes your point about smaller ships much less valid.
It's like every patently untrue thing about Caldari got rolled into one noob post.
Absolutely amazing.
Adding on to the topic: one more thing Nighthawk really needs is Drake's PG.
...I am a part of all that I have met,
Yet all experience is an arch wherethro'
Shines that untravell'd world, whose margin fades
For ever and for ever as I move... |
Raham
Teeth Of The Hydra
R i s e
|
Posted - 2007.10.21 00:05:00 -
[54]
All of this about nighthawks having 700+ dps is crazy. Maybe it's theoretically possible with quickfit, but it sure as hell doesn't work that way in the real game.
If you want to fit HAMs (which I don't have too much experience with) you have to kill your tank by either adding PDUs instead of SPRs, or fitting less extenders. It also can't move anywhere fast, unless you want to kill your tank even more with an MWD. So there you have a low damage, bad tanked, non-tackling version of an astarte.
With heavy missiles, the MAX damage that I can pump out is about 375 damage. This is with rapid fire 5, command ship 4, 2 BCU IIs and caldari navy scourges.
Its possible that this could hit as high as 450, with CS 5 and implants, but still is nowhere near 750+.
All that said, nighthawk still kicks ass, though it would be much better with the kin missile bonus switched to all damage types
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ColetteLehtola
Lone Starr Corporation
|
Posted - 2007.10.21 00:51:00 -
[55]
Everyone goes on and on about T2 javs and precisions can kill fast ships and small frigs..
And I'll ask as many others have. Why in space should you bring out a 300mil? ship just to kill those supports, when the job could be done with a cruiser..
NH and even caldari should somewhat get revamped in a small manner tbh. We do are versatile no question about that. But people that tend to make others believe that missiles are an imba weapon system due to no decrease in damage what so ever are wrong. There was someone who did point out that the missiles to loose damage.
Yes the javs and precision missiles can hit targets that go below ~4900m/s allthough they won't inflict alot of damage due to explosion velocity.
Well back to the NH, it can tank (in EFT) something like ~900raw dps, allthough an astarte can spew out around ~900raw dps so that is +-0. Then I think the asterte indeed can tank the NH's 627 raw dps from the HAMS and the t2 drones (CN terrors).
So by this comparison the Astarte>Nighthawk in both tanking and dps, and it could aswell scram and web the NH.(Only 1dmg mod on Astarte and 2xMARt2
I don't know if someone else got other numbers but these are standard t2 modules (used the DG large shield booster on the NH fitting, allthough with a large t2 booster it would have tanked ~750raw dps)
I'm tired so if this dosn't make sence you all know why..
...Where's your god now? |
Verlaine Glariant
The Seventh Ring
YouWhat
|
Posted - 2007.10.21 05:26:00 -
[56]
I agree that a new launcher should be added to the Nighthawk. Either that or make a T2 Drake.
No one can deny that Nighthawk has the worst DPS amongst all field command ships. This must be fixed, and I hope CCP will do it in the upcoming expansion... or maybe a patch.
Verlaine Glariant. Tactical Weapons Specialist. |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2007.10.21 06:25:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Raham
SPRs
I think i know why you lost all your space.
Anyway, 554 from heavies and 668 from HAMs.
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Transcendant One
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Posted - 2007.10.21 06:37:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Transcendant One on 21/10/2007 06:43:15
I think it could use a 7th launcher, but more urgently a pg buff. The precision bonus could use some looking at as well. Though I'm not suggesting all three be changed, the nigthawk could use something. Killing enemy support is all well and good but Caldari already has many other ships that can fill that role (better) while the other races field command ships can fill more interesting roles that justify their training time and cost.
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Talio ZomB
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Posted - 2007.10.21 07:19:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Gypsio III
You can get 756 DPS out of a NH, with max skills (ha), drones and 3% implants, and still fit a solid tank. You won't have much mobility, but getting in range isn't a problem thanks to Javs.
and what fitting would that be???
cuz I only have spec 5 to go before max skills
I have 5% to HAM dmg, 3% to ROF and 4 CN BCS
I cant get 756 dps,
more like 640 (I'll edit later with the exact value) or so using CN ammo, and rage is only a tad higher at a sacrifice to range and hit quality
or u refering to an estamel fit that the every day pee bod has lying about??
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Uninvited Guests
|
Posted - 2007.10.21 09:28:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Verlaine Glariant
I agree that a new launcher should be added to the Nighthawk. Either that or make a T2 Drake.
No one can deny that Nighthawk has the worst DPS amongst all field command ships. This must be fixed, and I hope CCP will do it in the upcoming expansion... or maybe a patch.
Sure and lets also remove 300dps from its tank too so it gets inline with other commandship. Agreed.
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Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.10.21 10:22:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Ogul on 21/10/2007 10:35:02
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Sure and lets also remove 300dps from its tank too so it gets inline with other commandship. Agreed.
If you compare an active tanked Nighthawk (all med slots used for tank) to a similarly fit (all low slots for Astarte/Absolution, all med slots in the case of the Sleipnir) field command ship of the other races you will find that they are comparable.
The Nighthawk's tank only becomes superior if you devote all med AND low slots to tanking (which the Sleipnir can't do as easily because of the shield boost bonus).
If you really want to do that (which means being a uselessly slow brick of a ship doing pathetic damage) you might as well buy 6 (!) drakes for the price of one nighthawk and lose a tiny bit of damage over it.
---
This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.10.21 10:25:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 21/10/2007 10:27:02
Originally by: Talio ZomB
Originally by: Gypsio III
You can get 756 DPS out of a NH, with max skills (ha), drones and 3% implants, and still fit a solid tank. You won't have much mobility, but getting in range isn't a problem thanks to Javs.
and what fitting would that be???
cuz I only have spec 5 to go before max skills
I have 5% to HAM dmg, 3% to ROF and 4 CN BCS
I cant get 756 dps,
more like 640 (I'll edit later with the exact value) or so using CN ammo, and rage is only a tad higher at a sacrifice to range and hit quality
or u refering to an estamel fit that the every day pee bod has lying about??
6x HAM II (terror rage)
3x BCS II
3% HAM damage implant
3% missile ROF implant
5x hobgoblin IIs
Gives 756 DPS. You can actually fit a light neutron II in the last sapre slot, that takes it up to 793 DPS!
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Aramendel
Amarr
North Face Force
|
Posted - 2007.10.21 11:45:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Ogul
If you compare an active tanked Nighthawk (all med slots used for tank) to a similarly fit (all low slots for Astarte/Absolution, all med slots in the case of the Sleipnir) field command ship of the other races you will find that they are comparable.
The problem is that a full tank abso or astarte do less dps than a full (med) tank NH because they have no damagemods.
The sleipnir does not have that problem, but it is far more range dependant than the NH.
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Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.10.21 12:15:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Aramendel
The problem is that a full tank abso or astarte do less dps than a full (med) tank NH because they have no damagemods.
The sleipnir does not have that problem, but it is far more range dependant than the NH.
And in turn it can't tackle/mwd/ewar. I don't see how that is a problem.
---
This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
Fuazzole
|
Posted - 2007.10.21 13:09:00 -
[65]
These threads will never end, if you were to swap the ships stats it wouldn't take long for a boost NH's tank inline with the other comands, and boost dmg range, 15km with T2 range ammo is usless when tackled at 20km
Thiers only 1 thing wrong with the NH, the +dmg to kinetic, but even at that, duels vs EM toating HAM spammers usualy meet a very close end
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2007.10.21 14:55:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Talio ZomB
Originally by: Gypsio III
You can get 756 DPS out of a NH, with max skills (ha), drones and 3% implants, and still fit a solid tank. You won't have much mobility, but getting in range isn't a problem thanks to Javs.
and what fitting would that be???
cuz I only have spec 5 to go before max skills
I have 5% to HAM dmg, 3% to ROF and 4 CN BCS
I cant get 756 dps,
more like 640 (I'll edit later with the exact value) or so using CN ammo, and rage is only a tad higher at a sacrifice to range and hit quality
or u refering to an estamel fit that the every day pee bod has lying about??
He is adding drones. You arent.
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Matiaj
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Posted - 2007.10.21 16:02:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Matiaj on 21/10/2007 16:05:32
The NH doesn't need more DPS imo.
The NH's problem is that it needs both a RCU and an ACR to fit ham + mwd + inj + large shield booster.
The other command ships do not have this problem.
- Astarte : 7x neutron + mwd + inj + 2x mar with one ACR, or a mix of neutron/ion without any fitting mod
- Sleipnir : can even fit an XL booster -_-
- Absolution : 7x heavy pulse + mwd + inj + 2x mar without any fitting mod.
Solution :
- Give the NH a slight PG boost, so that people can fit 7x ham + empty remaining highslot without fitting mods (or just an ACR maybe but no RCU!)
- Now that the fitting mod is not mandatory anymore, change the layout to 7/6/4 like the Drake.
The NH would then be a nice ship :
- Less dps than the other races field CS but more range
- More tank than the other races field CS but no tackle ; or some tackle using the new 6 medslots but then less tank than the other races field CS.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2007.10.21 17:20:00 -
[68]
Or you could just reduce HAM fittings like needs to be done.
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Wrayeth
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.10.21 17:28:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Goumindong
Or you could just reduce HAM fittings like needs to be done.
I actually agree with Goumindong here. There's seriously something wrong - someone must be burning a nerfbat in effigy to the gods of paradox, somewhere.
Seriously, though HAMs take waaaay too much to fit. To fit the required mods for a HAM setup (6 HAM II, MWD, large shield booster II, medium electrochem cap injector) you have to use two reactor control II's. 1 RCU II or PDU II would be fine, but two RCU II's is just ridiculous.
-Wrayeth
n00b Extraordinaire
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
Subruz
|
Posted - 2007.10.21 17:32:00 -
[70]
Agreed...
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Riddick Valer
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Posted - 2007.10.21 17:36:00 -
[71]
I hate to say it, but I agree with him also. HAM fittings need to be reduced. I'd go one further and say that Torp fittings should be adjusted downward, especially with the new changes. It will bring it in line with its new close fighting role.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2007.10.21 18:47:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Wrayeth
Originally by: Goumindong
Or you could just reduce HAM fittings like needs to be done.
I actually agree with Goumindong here. There's seriously something wrong - someone must be burning a nerfbat in effigy to the gods of paradox, somewhere.
Seriously, though HAMs take waaaay too much to fit. To fit the required mods for a HAM setup (6 HAM II, MWD, large shield booster II, medium electrochem cap injector) you have to use two reactor control II's. 1 RCU II or PDU II would be fine, but two RCU II's is just ridiculous.
HAM and siege fitting has been a fairly common complaint[siege not anymore if these changes go through] It doesnt make much sense that the short range weapons are harder to fit than the long range weapons, since the ship is expceted to be closer and needing to fit more powergrid intensive mods.
I was chatting with one of the guys who works sisi a bit ago, and brought it up, he said he would take it to the balance guys, so who knows what will happen
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Matiaj
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Posted - 2007.10.21 18:49:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Matiaj on 21/10/2007 18:52:16
Originally by: Goumindong
Or you could just reduce HAM fittings like needs to be done.
Yep, I talked about that it in my post actually. But I don't think it would be enough in the case of the NH, unless you want to give HAMs the same pg reqs as assault launchers.
And I still can't see the point of a 7/5/5 layout.
I mean, what are lowslots used for?
- Armor tank : sucks for a ship that has a shield resist bonus
- Nano : I doubt the NH can be made into a good nanoship, better use a Cerb instead
- Damage mods : 3 are enough
- SPR spam : ...
Seriously, this 5th low is only useful for a RCU which shouldn't be even needed in the first place if the ham grid usage and the NH powergrid were reasonable.
3x bcs + dcu = ftw.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2007.10.21 19:01:00 -
[74]
Capacitor, speed, lock range/time/targets, fitting, more damage, armor resists[helpfull for an active shield tank and Hit point buffer tank]
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Tuschii
Filthy Scum
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Posted - 2007.10.21 19:13:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Fehnrail
Nighthawk's tank far surpasses Drake's.
Nighthawk's DPS far surpasses Drake's.
Nighthawk is the tankiest of FCSs.
The only real change we need is to have missile damage bonus switched from kinetic to rainbow.
Aye, I agree with this
Signature
Your signature exceeds the 24000 byte limit allowed on the forums. -Darth Patches |
Allestin Villimar
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Posted - 2007.10.21 19:34:00 -
[76]
I wouldn't call the NH tankiest of command ships. I can get a tank on a sleipnir that handles 3x as much dps as a nighthawk. Admittedly it's active, but it's nice to have a ship that doesn't have to run from 5 battleships.
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Raham
Teeth Of The Hydra
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.21 22:44:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Raham
SPRs
I think i know why you lost all your space.
Anyway, 554 from heavies and 668 from HAMs.
Yeah, Shield Power relay, it's a passive tanking mod and works better than PDU or a power diagnostics unit, if you didn't know that one either. But I guess using better fittings must be why we lost our space.
Want to show some math on the 554 with heavies btw?
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Ivor Gunn
No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition
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Posted - 2007.10.21 22:55:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Goumindong
I was chatting with one of the guys who works sisi a bit ago, and brought it up, he said he would take it to the balance guys, so who knows what will happen
This just in: Goons have dev friends!! 
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2007.10.21 23:32:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Ivor Gunn
Originally by: Goumindong
I was chatting with one of the guys who works sisi a bit ago, and brought it up, he said he would take it to the balance guys, so who knows what will happen
This just in: Goons have dev friends!!
Full disclosure. I was on sisi at the time.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.21 23:34:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Raham
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Raham
SPRs
I think i know why you lost all your space.
Anyway, 554 from heavies and 668 from HAMs.
Yeah, Shield Power relay, it's a passive tanking mod and works better than PDU or a power diagnostics unit, if you didn't know that one either. But I guess using better fittings must be why we lost our space.
Want to show some math on the 554 with heavies btw?
Actually a PDU is loads better, because 5% more shields is all that really matters, and the pg and cap dont hurt either.
But yea, dont fit SPRs to nighthawks that you plan on taking into combat.
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Raham
Teeth Of The Hydra
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.21 23:49:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Raham
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Raham
SPRs
I think i know why you lost all your space.
Anyway, 554 from heavies and 668 from HAMs.
Yeah, Shield Power relay, it's a passive tanking mod and works better than PDU or a power diagnostics unit, if you didn't know that one either. But I guess using better fittings must be why we lost our space.
Want to show some math on the 554 with heavies btw?
Actually a PDU is loads better, because 5% more shields is all that really matters, and the pg and cap dont hurt either.
But yea, dont fit SPRs to nighthawks that you plan on taking into combat.
5% shields is all that matters? Thats odd, I had thought recharge rate was what mattered for passive tanked ships, not total shield 
Try it out, this is speaking from personal experience, a nighthawk with SPRs tanks far better than one with PDUs
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.22 00:04:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Raham
5% shields is all that matters? Thats odd, I had thought recharge rate was what mattered for passive tanked ships, not total shield
Try it out, this is speaking from personal experience, a nighthawk with SPRs tanks far better than one with PDUs
plural? how in the world do you get multipule pdus/sprs on the thing?
P.S. passive tanks are hitpoint tanks, not recharge tanks.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.10.22 00:20:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Ogul
Originally by: Aramendel
The problem is that a full tank abso or astarte do less dps than a full (med) tank NH because they have no damagemods.
The sleipnir does not have that problem, but it is far more range dependant than the NH.
And in turn it can't tackle/mwd/ewar. I don't see how that is a problem.
Exactly, so they are balanced NOW. They wont be if you give NH MORE damage. K?
Gank interfers with absolution and astarte tank.
Gank interfers with nighthawks ability to fit ew in mids.
Nighthawk can tank very good compared to these two. And you want to give it more dps? This would mean the NH could drop a little tank (=get inline with tanks of absolution and astarte), fit ew in mids AND do the same dps as the other commandships. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Drop the case.
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Raham
Teeth Of The Hydra
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.22 01:44:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Raham
5% shields is all that matters? Thats odd, I had thought recharge rate was what mattered for passive tanked ships, not total shield
Try it out, this is speaking from personal experience, a nighthawk with SPRs tanks far better than one with PDUs
plural? how in the world do you get multipule pdus/sprs on the thing?
P.S. passive tanks are hitpoint tanks, not recharge tanks.
Passive tanks are definitely not just hitpoint tanks. The point of a passive tank is to not have to use an active shield booster, and this doesn't work for long if you have no recharge rate. And the whole plural question? Nighthawk has more than one lowslot, though I'm certainly hoping that was some sort of bizzare goon joke.
Maths:Just using 10,000 raw shields as a base
3x PDU IIs and 2 core defense field purger rigs.
10,000 x 1.05 x 1.05 x 1.05=11576.25 shields
1400sec recharge rate x .915 x .915 x .915 x .85 x.85= 774.9 recharge rate
11576.25/774.9=14.9 shields/sec
3x SPR IIs and 2 core defense field purger rigs.
10,000 x 1 x 1 x 1 = 10000 shields
1400sec recharge rate x .76 x .76 x .76 x.85 x .85= 444.0 recharge rate
10000/444.0=22.5 shields per second
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Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.22 12:13:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Nighthawk can tank very good compared to these two. And you want to give it more dps? This would mean the NH could drop a little tank (=get inline with tanks of absolution and astarte), fit ew in mids AND do the same dps as the other commandships. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Drop the case.
First, no I don't want to give it more dps. (Maybe via the back route by increasing powergrid and/or lowering fitting requirements of HAM launchers. And even then I don't care much because the ship is too bloody expensive to fly a lot in pvp.)
It's just that the 1000 dps passive tank always comes up whenever the nighthawk is mentioned. A setup like that is about as dangerous to others as a docked ship (and still tanks less  ), and I cannot really believe anyone to actually use it because of that fact.
---
This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
CountDrakula
Fracked Inc
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Posted - 2007.10.22 12:30:00 -
[86]
The problem coems not that the NH can;t achieve dps or that it can passive tank like a mean machine. Its that there's no middle ground.
Gank fit astarte still boast something of a tank if not much, gank fitted NH's boast no tank and cn;t compete with the astartes DPS. I can not fit to my nighthawk a dps that compares to other gank fits. I can outank another Command with a passive fit, but for firepower purposes my Nighthawk limps in last.
Comparison, Ion fitted semi tank Astarte, and 425mm ac tank seliphner
Astarte - 500/600 Dps with a semi decent dual rep tank and al the tackle requirements
Selpiener - 400/500 Dps nice tank and with mwd and warp d i can tackle most things
Nighthawk gank fit - 400/500 dps no tank, and handles like a wet blanket
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.10.22 12:45:00 -
[87]
Originally by: CountDrakula
gank fitted NH's boast no tank
you armor tanking a NH?
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DARTHxFREE
G.R.U.N.T
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Posted - 2007.10.22 13:03:00 -
[88]
Raw DPS isn't so important,
Effective DPS and aplication of DMG matter more.
Unless the target sit's still a Blaster needs a lot of planning, effort and resource's to get into position.
On 15-20km nano tackled situations null blasters can't save you.
Kin/Therm or EM/Therm for lasors is very limiting.
Astarte is more preferable then a Nighthawk for shooting big targets maybe, but most targets arn't big targets I find. Chasing after HAC's, frigs, everything small or even other commands with comparable speed, with an Overloaded MWD doing 1500m/s just doesn't work.
>:-E3
/join Cheeze & Whine Club
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Aramendel
Amarr
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.22 13:24:00 -
[89]
Originally by: CountDrakula
Comparison, Ion fitted semi tank Astarte, and 425mm ac tank seliphner
Astarte - 500/600 Dps with a semi decent dual rep tank and al the tackle requirements
Selpiener - 400/500 Dps nice tank and with mwd and warp d i can tackle most things
Nighthawk gank fit - 400/500 dps no tank, and handles like a wet blanket
Your problem is that you ignore range. Ships are not instantly at their optimal. Neither is their regular combat scenario a 1v1 vs each other.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.22 13:51:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Raham
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Raham
5% shields is all that matters? Thats odd, I had thought recharge rate was what mattered for passive tanked ships, not total shield
Try it out, this is speaking from personal experience, a nighthawk with SPRs tanks far better than one with PDUs
plural? how in the world do you get multipule pdus/sprs on the thing?
P.S. passive tanks are hitpoint tanks, not recharge tanks.
Passive tanks are definitely not just hitpoint tanks. The point of a passive tank is to not have to use an active shield booster, and this doesn't work for long if you have no recharge rate. And the whole plural question? Nighthawk has more than one lowslot, though I'm certainly hoping that was some sort of bizzare goon joke.
Maths:Just using 10,000 raw shields as a base
3x PDU IIs and 2 core defense field purger rigs.
10,000 x 1.05 x 1.05 x 1.05=11576.25 shields
1400sec recharge rate x .915 x .915 x .915 x .85 x.85= 774.9 recharge rate
11576.25/774.9=14.9 shields/sec
3x SPR IIs and 2 core defense field purger rigs.
10,000 x 1 x 1 x 1 = 10000 shields
1400sec recharge rate x .76 x .76 x .76 x.85 x .85= 444.0 recharge rate
10000/444.0=22.5 shields per second
Yea, that extra 7.6 shields per second at max recharge are really going to overcome the 1576 extra shields you get base you get from the PDUs!
In 207 seconds... Or, 3 minutes... If you are spending 3 minutes at peak recharge then your enemy is doing how much dps to you? 100, maybe?
Fake P.S. you dont ever fit more than one passive tanking module on a nighthawk. Dont do it, take this as advice so that when we get a decent fight when we come to take your space next time.
Fake P.P.S. You are super-tanking this thing arent you? Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.22 17:50:00 -
[91]
Nighthawk's problem is lack of lowslot tackling gear.
Dps ... please don't compare faction ham to conflag abso, you have like 3x range.
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Raham
Teeth Of The Hydra
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.22 21:23:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Raham on 22/10/2007 21:25:07
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Raham
Passive tanks are definitely not just hitpoint tanks. The point of a passive tank is to not have to use an active shield booster, and this doesn't work for long if you have no recharge rate. And the whole plural question? Nighthawk has more than one lowslot, though I'm certainly hoping that was some sort of bizzare goon joke.
Maths:Just using 10,000 raw shields as a base
3x PDU IIs and 2 core defense field purger rigs.
10,000 x 1.05 x 1.05 x 1.05=11576.25 shields
1400sec recharge rate x .915 x .915 x .915 x .85 x.85= 774.9 recharge rate
11576.25/774.9=14.9 shields/sec
3x SPR IIs and 2 core defense field purger rigs.
10,000 x 1 x 1 x 1 = 10000 shields
1400sec recharge rate x .76 x .76 x .76 x.85 x .85= 444.0 recharge rate
10000/444.0=22.5 shields per second
Yea, that extra 7.6 shields per second at max recharge are really going to overcome the 1576 extra shields you get base you get from the PDUs!
In 207 seconds... Or, 3 minutes... If you are spending 3 minutes at peak recharge then your enemy is doing how much dps to you? 100, maybe?
Fake P.S. you dont ever fit more than one passive tanking module on a nighthawk. Dont do it, take this as advice so that when we get a decent fight when we come to take your space next time.
Fake P.P.S. You are super-tanking this thing arent you? Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
4 points:
1st: that 7.6 shields per sec is not even close to at max rate. Shield recharge rates work on a curve, and thats the starting rate.
2nd: You personally did very little to take our space from us, being on one rise killmail in the triangle.
3rd: You were flying amarr ships every time you killed a rise person, giving very little credibility to anything you have to say about caldari ships
4th: You're in an industrial corp...
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.22 21:49:00 -
[93]
Nighthawk's problem is horribly, horribly gimped PG.
Try fitting gang mod, 6x HAM IIs, MWD II, LSB II, med cap booster. Now that's a high-end fit, we should expect to have to use some fitting mods, right? A RCU II, certainly. A PDS II on top? Sounds fair enough. Assuming a DC II as standard, that would leave 2 slots for BCS or speed/agility jobbies.
Instead, that fit requires 3 RCU IIs and a PDS II. Horrible.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.22 21:51:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Raham
4 points:
1st: that 7.6 shields per sec is not even close to at max rate. Shield recharge rates work on a curve, and thats the starting rate.
2nd: You personally did very little to take our space from us, being on one rise killmail in the triangle.
3rd: You were flying amarr ships every time you killed a rise person, giving very little credibility to anything you have to say about caldari ships
4th: You're in an industrial corp...
1. If that isnt anywhere near your max recharge rate you are useless. Congrats on being a hunk of useless junk in space. You could have brought a caracal or drake and been a whole lot cheaper useless piece of junk in space. If you fit your ship like an idiot, and that is what i have been getting at the entire time here, it will suck. You dont fit recharge based tanks for PvP, you fit them to tank complexes. You dont fit them for PvP because they do ****ty dps, and are regeneration based which means they fail nearly as fast as any other non-hit point based tank, except you dont nearly as much dps as the hit point based tank does. I had been holding off on saying you suck at fitting ships directly to your face for a while now, but this is just too much. Caldari are fine at pvp, good even, but in order to be good, you cant fit them like you are running level 3 missions in an empire hub. You need an mwd, you need hit points or ewar, and you need as many damage mods as you can cram on the thing. If you are fitting more than one SPR you have a problem, 5 lows == 3 bcu, 1 damage control, +1 wildcard[hey even another BCU aint so bad]. Conincidently you do have a problem because you want to fit at least 3 PDUs or SPRs in your low slots making sure you have no tackle, weak dps, and a tank that is not significantly stronger than the exact same fit but with 3 damage mods instead[which would probably still suck]. Here is a good example, you passivly tank 900 dps. 9000 dps is incoming from 10-15 battleships. Now, if you had damage mods fitted you could be usefull until you got primaried and then you would take some 10 seconds to kill. Instead of that, you are useless and take 10.5 seconds to kill, because you tank 900 dps for less than a second of the time you are alive.
2. There werent a lot of killmails to be had, it was just shoot POS, wait, shoot some more POS. Though i am not sure what this has to do with the quality of your flying.
3. I fly amarr ships a lot, they work exactly the same way that caldari ships do except they have a tad bit more dps at the battleship level, less range, and a whole lot less versitility. This one is in bold, because its important
4. Its not for you.
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Raham
Teeth Of The Hydra
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.22 23:43:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Raham
4 points:
1st: that 7.6 shields per sec is not even close to at max rate. Shield recharge rates work on a curve, and thats the starting rate.
2nd: You personally did very little to take our space from us, being on one rise killmail in the triangle.
3rd: You were flying amarr ships every time you killed a rise person, giving very little credibility to anything you have to say about caldari ships
4th: You're in an industrial corp...
1. If that isnt anywhere near your max recharge rate you are useless. Congrats on being a hunk of useless junk in space. You could have brought a caracal or drake and been a whole lot cheaper useless piece of junk in space. If you fit your ship like an idiot, and that is what i have been getting at the entire time here, it will suck. You dont fit recharge based tanks for PvP, you fit them to tank complexes. You dont fit them for PvP because they do ****ty dps, and are regeneration based which means they fail nearly as fast as any other non-hit point based tank, except you dont nearly as much dps as the hit point based tank does. I had been holding off on saying you suck at fitting ships directly to your face for a while now, but this is just too much. Caldari are fine at pvp, good even, but in order to be good, you cant fit them like you are running level 3 missions in an empire hub. You need an mwd, you need hit points or ewar, and you need as many damage mods as you can cram on the thing. If you are fitting more than one SPR you have a problem, 5 lows == 3 bcu, 1 damage control, +1 wildcard[hey even another BCU aint so bad]. Conincidently you do have a problem because you want to fit at least 3 PDUs or SPRs in your low slots making sure you have no tackle, weak dps, and a tank that is not significantly stronger than the exact same fit but with 3 damage mods instead[which would probably still suck]. Here is a good example, you passivly tank 900 dps. 9000 dps is incoming from 10-15 battleships. Now, if you had damage mods fitted you could be usefull until you got primaried and then you would take some 10 seconds to kill. Instead of that, you are useless and take 10.5 seconds to kill, because you tank 900 dps for less than a second of the time you are alive.
2. There werent a lot of killmails to be had, it was just shoot POS, wait, shoot some more POS. Though i am not sure what this has to do with the quality of your flying.
3. I fly amarr ships a lot, they work exactly the same way that caldari ships do except they have a tad bit more dps at the battleship level, less range, and a whole lot less versitility. This one is in bold, because its important
4. Its not for you.
This is obviously not a fleet for setup. Nighthawks have almost no place in fleet engagements, as their dps is not too great, as you've agreed, the missiles don't go fast enough to hit intys, and obviously tank doesn't matter when you're primaried by 10-15 bs, buffer or non. On the other hand, it is and excellent solo pvp setup which I've used to kill over 40 ships in its lifetime, tank carriers and tank up to 4 bs. So I guess it just might work outside the plexes
With regard to you flying amarr ships, this was pointing out that you have no experience with flying caldari ships, not that amarr ships work the same as caldari ships. However, I guess you're right. Amarr ships are the same as caldari, except for the weapons and tank. But the drones are the same maybe? so touche on that, I guess your caldari knowledge an experience must be unrivaled from flying laser shooting armor tanking ships.
I don't even understand what 4 means. Industry isn't for me? The ships you make aren't? Mining isn't?
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.23 00:14:00 -
[96]
Solo pvp in a passive tanked nighthawk. Now i have heard it all.
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Cha Jeng
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Posted - 2007.10.24 01:36:00 -
[97]
Caldari aren't that great for tackling and other things because of the mid slot conflict, yes I admit this. But you can still have very respectable damage and tank at the same time, and are not cap dependant. The whole but the Astarte and Absolution argument doesn't really work, as you are going to be using cap boosters on those to tank that kind of dps... If you argue that the dps cancels out like I read earlier, that is fine, but that means the nighthawk wins because the other ship runs out of cap booster eventually.
I also keep seeing the complaint about kinetic damage bonuses. Mimnitar can choose their damage type based on ammo, and get gun damage bonuses, why not give it to caldari too? Well in my opinion it would be overpowered. Amarr and Gallente can't choose thier damage types, and mimnitar dps tends to be lower and the ammo spreads out the damage types so it works fine. But if you are doing great damage with every missile that just means you are going to use each ships weakest resist and do maximum damage which is a bit much.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.10.24 07:15:00 -
[98]
Personally I view the NH as a PvE command ship. As such it is excellent and needs no changes. When I want to PvP I fly my Alt's Sleipnir.
I don't see why every ship in the game has to be capable of every role in the game. It's not true in real life and would make for a boring game experience. Choose your ship for the task ahead and if the NH isn't too good at PvP then don't use it for PvP.
If you do PvP you ought to be able to fly more than one race's ships anyway in which case switching to another command ship doesn't take long.
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
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