fine the way it is

the only way delayed local would work is if its a 2 way street, IE: you can't see them and they cant see you, then everyone sees you and you see them... sounds fairly useless.

it seems to me that any discussion of a local nerf is, in the end, to the benefit a certain party at the expense of another.
the only way its fair is for the effect to be universal, and then its reduced to a useless change that is for change's sake

I agree that from a basic level, the intel tool should be a 2-way street. The system should NOT give an innate advantage to the person entering system or to the person already in system.

However, I disagree with the notion that a universal change would be a "useless change that is for change's sake". A change that adds ambiguity to the new ship in space, where you don't always instantly know if they are friend or foe, returns some mystery, anticipation, and even increased surprise to the game. It could also significantly boost the roles and importance of scouts. With the right changes, you could enhance, or even add new dimensions to the game.

Intel tool (minus point A GÇö it shouldn't alert you at all, but rather give you data to analyse so you can alert yourself).

Do you prefer the omniscient, instantaneous Local Chat we have now?

or

Would you prefer a more balanced intel system?

By balanced, I mean a system that:

• A.) Alerts you quickly (not necessarily instantly) to the presence of all potential threats in space.
• B.) Leaves some ambiguity as to whether a potential threat is a friend or foe until you get intel on it.
• C.) Doesn't nerf the cloak out of play, nor boost it into the God of Hunting.

This F&I thread is my idea of a more balanced intel system. That's not the point of this thread though. I'm really just curious whether people think "local is fine as is", or if they want something different assuming a balance between predator and prey, cloakies, and the intelligence gathering mechanics can be achieved.

but it will always favor the fleet that will shoot at anything and all new neuts will be treated as reds, MRs will align and spam dscan, miners will dockup because they know that by the time they determine if the new gang is a threat they could already be landing next to them.

the fleet that shoots anything enters system and knows who is there, they don't care what you are, they warp to the most likely belt or hit several belts and have their choice of targets and a clear advantage upon system entry.

the end result is people will still react to a new neut as they do now, so the change changes nothing in the end.

I like the idea of more fog of war, but again it has to be fair for all involved or its just more fail

Local is not fine as is, nor are a whole gallery of "free intel" tools. It only really makes sense in hisec, where all gates are monitored constantly. Your suggestions for an intel system are good, but I am not very enthusiastic about automation for intel.

Perhaps if the intel resulting from the automated request was something like a system-wide mass sensor, which could only say "the system's mass increased/decreased a couple seconds ago!" That gives you the info you need to set you wondering what changed about your system.

Local, killmails, API abuse... there is way too much free intel in Eve. They all need looking at.

CCP has already established that more clicks != better gameplay!

I prefer the current system for the social aspects of it.

I would like to see more signal to noise thrown in with random ghost ships (untargeable, invisible to all but local) roaming through space using names of innactive players.

That would make people look at names harder and require scanning to know the real story on a short term basisi.

edit

When I mean "social" I don't mean necessarily chatting but the concept of seeing your neighbors on the street or the same faces at your supermarket even when you don't necessarily say hi until you've seen them dozens or hundreds of times if ever.

Seeing people is social interaction

I think some level of automation in the intel system is necessary. As Bane pointed out,

there is nothing to fix. There is everything you need for intel already available except for the 'warning that keeps me from ever dying' klaxon.
Your star map contains a plethora of valuable intel before you ever undock. Outside of worm holes you have a local chat, a D-Scan, tactical overlays, corp and alliance chat for most pilots, out of game resources, DOTLAN, people on the forums always give away information you can use.
You can apply custom standings to anyone, they appear on screen when they log in. You can create safes, there is an entire mechanic for being aligned to warp out quickly if need be.

Half the game world is high sec with uber NPC cops.

Not sure just how much more protecting anyone needs in a game that has ships with guns as it's core gameplay.

LEAVE LOCAL ALONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A Pack Of Wolfes

Intel tool (minus point A GÇö it shouldn't alert you at all, but rather give you data to analyse so you can alert yourself).

I'd prefer a filterable Local chat. As in don't show blues.

there is nothing to fix. There is everything you need for intel already available except for the 'warning that keeps me from ever dying' klaxon.
Your star map contains a plethora of valuable intel before you ever undock. Outside of worm holes you have a local chat, a D-Scan, tactical overlays, corp and alliance chat for most pilots, out of game resources, DOTLAN, people on the forums always give away information you can use.
You can apply custom standings to anyone, they appear on screen when they log in. You can create safes, there is an entire mechanic for being aligned to warp out quickly if need be.

Half the game world is high sec with uber NPC cops.

Not sure just how much more protecting anyone needs in a game that has ships with guns as it's core gameplay.

I'd prefer an intel tool over an omniscient local chat list.

My support for change isn't unqualified, however. I'd like to know what the intel tool is capable of, how easy (in terms of interface, not player skill) it is to use, and the underlying design philosophy.

Dscan is great, but it seems like a lot of needless clicking. I don't think the hamsters benefit from a mechanic that encourages button spam.

Intel tool (minus point A GÇö it shouldn't alert you at all, but rather give you data to analyse so you can alert yourself).

Do you prefer the omniscient, instantaneous Local Chat we have now?
[ 7 For Keep Local ]

or

Would you prefer a more balanced intel system?
[ 16 Replace Local with an Intel Tool ]

By balanced, I mean a system that:

• A.) Alerts you quickly (not necessarily instantly) to the presence of all potential threats in space.
• B.) Leaves some ambiguity as to whether a potential threat is a friend or foe until you get intel on it.
• C.) Doesn't nerf the cloak out of play, nor boost it into the God of Hunting.

This F&I thread is my idea of a more balanced intel system. That's not the point of this thread though. I'm really just curious whether people think "local is fine as is", or if they want something different assuming a balance between predator and prey, cloakies, and the intelligence gathering mechanics can be achieved.

yes and no.

Local Chat should just be a chat and nothing more, remove it's intel functions.

Slight improvements to DScanner to compensate, (but not replicate) for Local's Intel functions being removed.

heh if they aren't on Mumble they are a foe :p

Delayed local is superior, all space should be wh space.

Leave local the way it is.

Delayed local will just be another blow to an already dying nullsec.

From some of your snarky comments, i assume you think local is perfect as is, or is it you just don't think any alternatives are feasible?

10-26

local is fine as it is

it tells you who is in the system with you and nothing else

I really don't get the obsession with wanting to screw with it without a single forethought of its consequences. You should not be able to move through a system with active, vigilant players undetected, or have your presence be indistinguishable from blue traffic.

Local as it is feels very artificial.

The manual clickfest D-scan as it is now is hopeless though, why can't it be automated like a radar?
Perhaps a 10-25AU range radar would be a lot better and realistic.

In fact, in the long list of CCP promises, this is one of the ones that has been lacking the most. In a QnA session with the games public 2 years ago CCP actually stated flatly that a change to local was in the works, but here we sit, still waiting.

I suggested elsewhere that DScan could be set to an automated pulse the frequency based on the range and angle of the Scan, the further and wider you go the less frequent. Although I don't think it should have a maximum range much beyond what it already has.

Andski, when you say 'active vigilant players' do you mean non afk players with their Local Chat window open?

I suggested elsewhere that DScan could be set to an automated pulse the frequency based on the range and angle of the Scan, the further and wider you go the less frequent. Although I don't think it should have a maximum range much beyond what it already has.

Andski, when you say 'active vigilant players' do you mean non afk players with their Local Chat window open?

I would prefer a more advanced intel tool / directional scanner / radar og some sort..

and make local behave more realistically.. A pilot only shows up if they check in with traffic control -- jump through a stargate or undock from a starbase.. If they cyno in or jump in via wormhole, they are not passing by the port authority, and shouldn't be in local

in nullsec I don't believe there should be a local channel (ie set to delayed / chat only), since concord and the faction navy's have no presence there, thus there is no specific 'traffic control / port authority'

IMO anyways. take it or leave it.

Edit: could be a net sov mechanic to have a 'traffic control' unit you could erect in a system that would make local work in a nullsec system.. hmmmm

Interesting... I would support this. The traffic control unit needs to be vulnerable to things that are not giant fleets of doom. Something similar to the POCO maybe.

I think any kind of automated intel-gathering infrastructure is a bad idea that would undermine the whole purpose of delayed local. There is nothing that would stop sov holders from installing such a 'traffic control' unit in every farming system and we're back to the current situation of semi-afk intel networks and instantly safing ratting/mining ops.

Delaying intel? Either pve ships will still have time to get away or they wont.

Not if cynos/blops cynos don't trigger the traffic control system, and you can take it down with a fleet of bombers. Now doesn't that sound like "black ops"? Drop a bunch of bombers on the traffic control, disable it, then silently move a conventional fleet in.

Still, that gives too much to large entities. What about small gangs or solo? They would always be at a disadvantage, having to either disable structures or put up with the other side's instant and effortless intel.

Andski, when you say 'active vigilant players' do you mean non afk players with their Local Chat window open?

'Active Vigilant Players' sounds like a euphemism for BOT to me... but I don't think Andski meant it in such a manner. I took it to mean active players using ships in space.

No, it's not. "Active vigilant players" refers to a person sitting at the keyboard playing the game and actively reporting hostiles in intel chat - I do not believe bots ever report hostiles.

How about this.

Start by changing the local to the following based on the same arguments above about "port authorities etc"

0.0 gets changed to be the same as WH space local
01. - 0.4 = Local shows you how many people are in the system but no names unless they talk
0.5 - 1.0 = same as now.

THEN

you add in anchorable structure, like a warp bubble but with a limited life span, that you can place near a gate. This will then feed you (the anchorer) with information on what goes though the gate. This would be skill based so:-

lvl1 - "Hey dude I think x ships possible did something around this gate...not sure though"
lvl2 - "Yep somehing deffo jumped in, didn't see what"
lvl3 - ...
lvl4 - ....
lvl5 - "Yep, I saw 3 HAC's jump in flying the {insert random foe here} flag" << (eg where we are now with local + dscan


As an ' invader' you are going to see the anchored structure and can choose to pass on though, go a hunting or shoot the 'EWS Probe' down just to underscore your intentions.


This could also lend it's self to having an iHub upgrade for sov holders that offers some level of this functionality to their people in that particular system.

Anyway, just and idea..... flame away :-)

-CJ

And an intel tool, rather than an omniscient instant local, would force those players to actively ascertain information on unidentified new locals. Many pilots would find doing this tedious and couldn't be bothered, especially if there was a lot of friendly traffic. Then region-wide intel networks could lose much of their effectiveness, and identifying squatters to purge, hostiles to blob, and infiltrated areas of an empire would require more than flying a scout into system.

I definitely see why many people would find this unappealing. I can also see why a lot of people would find this very appealing. I hope it can it be created in a balanced manner, so intel gathering isn't an enormous and tedious task, while still creating an atmosphere with more mystery and ambiguity. Implementing this is a fair amount of work, with disastrous consequences if it is botched. Is it worth the effort and risk, when we have an easy-mode omniscient chat window that "works" now? I think so, but I certainly understand why people don't!

Interesting.... I don't think this, by itself, would be anywhere near enough to qualify as a balanced intel system. I typically prefer pilots to actively seek their intel, rather than have it completely fed to them by static modules. At the same time, it gave me some things to ponder about how pilot skills could play into an intel system. Thank you for the idea.

I'm curious as to what level of automation is acceptable to you?

It is not fine as it is.

There you go... fixed if for you :-)

Local.

I like to chat with people.

Get rid of local everywhere and replace with a new intel tool

If you're aligned you always have time to get away.

Delayed local would necessitate some balancing of the cloaking ships to keep that true.

What are you trying to accomplish?

Make it easier to bait and blob? Delayed local will work and no other changes needed.

Kill pvers? Then it will work if they change recons.

Really all these nerf local threads never really say what exactly they are trying to accomplish. In the meantime they will **** up the game.

Some claim they get upset because its free intel and think you should have to hit a button or something. If the problem is that it is free then make us pay concord a fee to see local.

I believe by removing the instant omniscient knowledge provided by local, and replacing it with an intel tool that lets you know there is a pilot there, but leaves some ambiguity as to whether that pilot is friendly or not, you can change many aspects of this game for the better.

The primary thing I want to accomplish is to add some mystery and subterfuge to the game.

This isn't to up the number of ratter km's, this is about NOT instantly knowing whether the 6 ships that just flew through local are a hostile gang up to no good or a bunch of allies running a plex. Will this make it easier to setup baits and/or traps... probably. But that's not a bad thing...

It means loading grid in a crowded system isn't enough to tell you how many good guys and bad guys are out and about. It's about adding VALUE to intel. When people whine about free intel, they don't me free in terms of isk... they mean free in terms of EFFORT.

Currently, intel gathering primarily involves sticking a ship into system and counting people in the local chat channel.

I fully acknowledge such a system is not easy to implement, and it needs to be carefully balanced. It should not make killing ratters and miners easy. If implemented poorly, it would be very disasterous for the game.

The only place it really makes sense to not have local (RP/game fiction wise) is wormholes . Local in k-space is fine as is

Do you prefer the omniscient, instantaneous Local Chat we have now?
[ 12 For Keep Local ]

or

Would you prefer a more balanced intel system?
[ 29 Replace Local with an Intel Tool ]

By balanced, I mean a system that:

• A.) Alerts you quickly (not necessarily instantly) to the presence of all potential threats in space.
• B.) Leaves some ambiguity as to whether a potential threat is a friend or foe until you get intel on it.
• C.) Doesn't nerf the cloak out of play, nor boost it into the God of Hunting.

.....

I'd like to see an overhaul of the entire dscan/local systems. Automate the dscan somewhat, have it show you any (uncloaked) ships/probes nearby at all times, so you dont need to be constantly clicking (CCP has already established that more clicks != better gameplay). Make local delayed, like in wh space. maybe increase the range of the dscan. Allow sov structure/upgrades that would detect incoming ships and flag them, so that the pilot shows up in local even if he hasn't talked. Would need a short delay to allow cloakies time to recloak, but not long.

what is it that you want to do in game now, that you can't do due to local?

Move through a system without anyone knowing that I'm moving through the system. As it stands, this is only possible if they aren't looking at local for whatever reason. It can help with corp/alliance logistics, ratting/mining in out-of-the-way systems, as well as make getting the drop on said ratters/miners much more fun. ....

The primary thing I want to accomplish is to add some mystery and subterfuge to the game.
This isn't to up the number of ratter km's, this is about NOT instantly knowing whether the 6 ships that just flew through local are a hostile gang up to no good or a bunch of allies running a plex. Will this make it easier to setup baits and/or traps... probably. But that's not a bad thing...

IMO Requiring even more effort/time to get a decent pvp fight in eve is not the way to go. CCP should be thinking the opposite. How can they make it so players can get more fights in less time.

Your survey is a bit skewed as well.

Points 1 & 2 and then

Point 3: I think we should look at how people are voting with their feet. The main difference between known space and wormhole space is the lack of local. Not many want to live there. If 60% of eve decided to live in no local wormholes I think that would be decent evidence that people really want it changed.

Outside of some artificial arena system, the only way to create more fights in less time is to increase the population density. I do not know how this will alter the population density of eve. It makes finding a target within very friendly space more difficult. It makes finding targets in unfriendly space easier. Ideally, this would increase the number of roaming gangs, which would increase the number of good fights. However, thatGÇÖs mostly speculation on my part.

Do you prefer the omniscient, instantaneous Local Chat we have now?
[ 12 For Keep Local ]

or

Would you prefer a more balanced intel system?
[ 29 Replace Local with an Intel Tool ]

By balanced, I mean a system that:

• A.) Alerts you quickly (not necessarily instantly) to the presence of all potential threats in space.
• B.) Leaves some ambiguity as to whether a potential threat is a friend or foe until you get intel on it.
• C.) Doesn't nerf the cloak out of play, nor boost it into the God of Hunting.

This F&I thread is my idea of a more balanced intel system. That's not the point of this thread though. I'm really just curious whether people think "local is fine as is", or if they want something different assuming a balance between predator and prey, cloakies, and the intelligence gathering mechanics can be achieved.

Gizznitt that was a great response. ItGÇÖs too bad that was at the bottom of the last page.

I think after reading it our difference of opinions on this is due to the different styles of play.

One minor gripe I have with your wording is you keep referring to local as GÇ£omniscient.GÇ¥ Omniscient means all knowing. But local does not tell you everything about the people there. It doesnGÇÖt even tell you if the people are docked up let alone what ships they are in. ItGÇÖs clearly not omniscient.


What it does tell you are the preliminary things you need to know as to whether that system is promising for finding a fight or not. It tells you what corps or alliances the people are with and this in turn can tell you if they are likely together or seperate. This also tells you if they are friendlies so I donGÇÖt waste time scanning them down. This is really just the bare minimum amount of intel I need to determine if that system is worth sticking around in or if I should move on immediately.

...

Hence I think your idea might be viable in null sec with the larger more organized fleets but for what I do in low sec I think this would be problematic.

...

I think local is a huge help for me to find good fights fast. Not only can immediately I skip systems that just have allies in them but I can also skip systems that have huge numbers of wts that arenGÇÖt typically in that system.

But with no local I would need to spend time warping around that system to see who they are. I know this may sound petty but I already rarely pvp because it takes too long to get fights. Anything that adds to that time is really going in the wrong direction.

I think this shows the big difference in how we operate. In faction war/ low sec., I may see 5 different people in local. From local I see 3 are wartargets. Perhaps the other 2 are not on scan. Well if I see say 3 destroyers together on my dscan I know I can go fight them in my t1 cruiser. Sure itGÇÖs possible the other 2 are alts or friends of the enemy but usually I know I can go ahead and get that fight. If I didnGÇÖt know there were three wartargets I wouldnGÇÖt know I could go there. I wouldnGÇÖt know how big their gang was at all. So I would be hesitant to engage at all. It would require more warping around in a game that I think requires far too much already.

Now if I start a fight with them and local spikes with wts I will try to get out. If it spikes with non wartargets or friendly I can keep fighting.

For a place like amamake I would get large numbers of ships on scan. Now with local I could see if anyone is in the same corp or allied corps. But with non descript local this would just be a complete crap shoot.

Overall i think your replacement of local is one of the more sensible ones. Its just that I like knowing if scanning down a system is going to be a waste of time right away. Thats what local does.