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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 8 post(s)
Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:28:00 - [1] Edited by: Dulcinea Toboso on 30/10/2007 20:43:51 I recently logged into my almost new character to find that in my wallet not only were the 350+ million isk that I had in there gone, but that my wallet had actually sunk to a negative 41 million isk. You can imagine my surprise and doubly so when I looked at my logs and realized that no less than a GM had taken the isk out of my wallet. As you might imagine, an immediate petition was filed. Their response was that the isk had come from a character who sold isk. Why didn't they at least have the courtesy of sending me a message once the isk was taken from my account explaining the reason for their actions? Why did it take a petition to receive some explanation of their actions. It's poor customer service to say the least. I fired back a quick response that I had done no such thing as purchase isk from anyone, never have, never will. And I added that had they bothered to check, they would have noticed that this character had only recently been transfered to my account from someone else. Well, this sent them into a tizzy. And I received no response for a while until this (by the way, I removed the names to protect the innocent, i.e., me): I was then informed that the matter was being investigated because they had not realized that the character had been transfered. I was encouraged by this message and started thinking that reason and justice would prevail. In my mind, I saw no good coming from the punishment of someone innocent of anything in an attempt to punish someone who has left the game and has given away their character. Days went by. Past a week. I fired off a couple of 'hey, can you resolve this issue, I can't even rep my own ship. I am 41 mill isk in the hole.' And then I received the message continued on the next post.
Sister Libertina	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:33:00 - [2] I guess what everyone really wants to know is ... how much does a billion isk cost in pound sterling?
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:35:00 - [3] I'm pretty sure that direct quoting of petitions is a no no on the forums. D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Sacul Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:42:00 - [4] waaaaaaaaaah i demand part 2!!!!!!!!! the excitement is killing me. The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones!
WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:43:00 - [5] Originally by: Sacul waaaaaaaaaah i demand part 2!!!!!!!!! the excitement is killing me. seriously... ----------------------------------------------- "I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation."
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:43:00 - [6] Hrm....I'm confused then. When people buy characters, they generally have no ISK on them. In my experience, if your character has ISK on it, its because you bought the account, not the character, which is illegal. You said that you didn't do that. So you purchased a character and it was transferred to your account. And the character you purchased...had ISK on it? Purchased ISK? That doesn't ring true to me. Unless you're saying that the previous owner bought ISK on the character, moved it off the character, then sold you the character? Just sayin'. If the timestamps don't add up, and you really are guilty, instead of them removing the ISK, like they said - you'll get banned. Its one thing to break the rules, its another thing to lie about it to the guys who run it.
Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:44:00 - [7] Originally by: Nerogk Shorn I'm pretty sure that direct quoting of petitions is a no no on the forums. Message edited, thanks for the heads up.
Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:46:00 - [8] Edited by: Dulcinea Toboso on 30/10/2007 20:46:08 Originally by: Curzon Dax Hrm....I'm confused then. When people buy characters, they generally have no ISK on them. In my experience, if your character has ISK on it, its because you bought the account, not the character, which is illegal. You said that you didn't do that. So you purchased a character and it was transferred to your account. And the character you purchased...had ISK on it? Purchased ISK? That doesn't ring true to me. Unless you're saying that the previous owner bought ISK on the character, moved it off the character, then sold you the character? Just sayin'. If the timestamps don't add up, and you really are guilty, instead of them removing the ISK, like they said - you'll get banned. Its one thing to break the rules, its another thing to lie about it to the guys who run it. The player owning the character was a Corp mate and friend. He decided to quit playing and I simply, and publicly, asked if I could have his character (toon). He said, sure. And I paid for the transfer fee.
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:46:00 - [9] Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso at least have the courtesy of sending me a message You don't even have the courtesy of reading the forum rules before posting, yet expect it from others == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:46:00 - [10] Originally by: Curzon Dax Hrm....I'm confused then. When people buy characters, they generally have no ISK on them. In my experience, if your character has ISK on it, its because you bought the account, not the character, which is illegal. You said that you didn't do that. So you purchased a character and it was transferred to your account. And the character you purchased...had ISK on it? Purchased ISK? That doesn't ring true to me. Unless you're saying that the previous owner bought ISK on the character, moved it off the character, then sold you the character? Just sayin'. If the timestamps don't add up, and you really are guilty, instead of them removing the ISK, like they said - you'll get banned. Its one thing to break the rules, its another thing to lie about it to the guys who run it. theres one other thing that doesnt make sense, why would someone buy isk and then give it to someone else in a character transfer? weird stuff ----------------------------------------------- "I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation."

Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:49:00 - [11] PART 2 The answer I received stated that because the toon had been given to me instead of me having purchased it, they would not be able to return the isk taken from my wallet. This is so wrong on so many levels I really don't have the time nor energy to list them all. But here are some... If I had purchased this character from my friend who left the game and gave me the character for 1 isk, then I guess it would have been OK? wtfo? What is the sense of taking isk away from a loyal, rule abiding player? Is it to punish me? Who is being punished for this rule infraction? The departing player? What is the point of this action, what does it do? Does it preserve the integrity of the game? Is it somehow going to prevent me from some kind of unfair advantage? My combined assets in two accounts exceed 4 billion isk. Is it worth losing a paying customer, who holds two active accounts, over this trivial quantity of isk? Will it satisfy some kind of sense of need to do something about the Eve community's complaints of isk sellers, macro miners, macro ratters, macro missioners, scammers, etc.? Is this why they are doing this to someone who has not committed any infraction? This whole incident has given me a first person perspective of the kind of people who are in charge of administering this game. And it has left me with a bitter taste that I can only eliminate by voting with my feet and walking away from it. CCP are morons. They are so wrapped up in their unreal world that they have lost sight of why we pay on a monthly basis to play. The reason we do so is to have fun.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:52:00 - [12] Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso What is the point of this action, what does it do? Does it preserve the integrity of the game? Is it somehow going to prevent me from some kind of unfair advantage? My combined assets in two accounts exceed 4 billion isk. Then why is it so hard to sell 41 million ISK of it exactly? Quote: Is it worth losing a paying customer, who holds two active accounts, over this trivial quantity of isk? Will it satisfy some kind of sense of need to do something about the Eve community's complaints of isk sellers, macro miners, macro ratters, macro missioners, scammers, etc.? Is this why they are doing this to someone who has not committed any infraction? Well otherwise it means that anyone who purchases ISK with two accounts can just "give" one with the character they purchased ISK with, avoiding punishment anytime they are threatened with it. Quote: This whole incident has given me a first person perspective of the kind of people who are in charge of administering this game. And it has left me with a bitter taste that I can only eliminate by voting with my feet and walking away from it. Can I have your (non-liquid) stuff? This entire thing seems a little suspicious anyway. If you have eve-mails in your inbox that directly discussed RMT transactions, why didn't you immediately notify the appropriate persons? And if you have so many assets, why couldn't you sell off a mere 2% of those assets to recoup your losses? And if the character was given to you, you haven't lost any of your own assets (on your other characters). ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in Forum Warfare Wrangler on Whining
Barbaro55a Caldari Os Lobos	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:00:00 - [13] I'm allready bored of this thread. I personaly think your not telling the whole truth. Yes CCP should send messages informing when they have removed funs but thats a seperate issue. You bought isk and went 40 mil in debt, a tiny ammount compared to your supposed wealth. You got cought, be a man and deal with it. Originally by: ISD Valorem If someone has hurt you out of game then please talk to family, friends or Police (if necessary)
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:07:00 - [14] simply put, because you didn't invest anything in the character, you are getting exactly what you paid for the isk was paid for illegally and was removed Kudos to the GM's you got ripped off by a corp mate, thats not exactly news I'm currently involved in medical research, concerning the therapuetic aspects of a swift kick in the rear What do zombies and forum posters have in common? They like to sit about and moan!
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:09:00 - [15] 4 bil isk? then how is 41 mil a problem? just transfer some isk... tadat, then tarsfer 2 bil, and your fine. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...
Arkyk Viper Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:13:00 - [16] Edited by: Arkyk on 30/10/2007 21:13:57 Edited by: Arkyk on 30/10/2007 21:13:30 I'll just quote myself from the locked thread: "I can see why they removed the ISK, but at the same time, I wouldn't have put you into the negative. 0 ISK would have been just fine. At least then you could actually play." Originally by: Tarminic Then why is it so hard to sell 41 million ISK of it exactly? Can you sell items without having any money to pay the fee to set the sale up? Originally by: Barbaro55a You bought isk and went 40 mil in debt Are you looking into your crystal ball to see this? ---------------- Mostly harmless.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:18:00 - [17] Edited by: Tarminic on 30/10/2007 21:18:23 Quote: Originally by: Tarminic Then why is it so hard to sell 41 million ISK of it exactly? Can you sell items without having any money to pay the fee to set the sale up? Contracts? Sell it to someone you know via station trade? There are plenty of ways. The OP claimed to have two characters with a combined 4 billion ISK in assets. Couldn't he just transfer ISK from one character to the other? And if the other character is in the positive he could sell some of that character's assets as well. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in Forum Warfare Wrangler on Whining
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:19:00 - [18] Originally by: Arkyk Can you sell items without having any money to pay the fee to set the sale up? Even if this was an issue, and I don't think it is cause I know someone who worked his way out of debt, all you do is make an alt, transfer the items to the alt, sell with the alt, and then send the isk back. Whining to CCP because someone gave you a junk character for free is just stupid. It's not their problem. I don't even understand what your problem is. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Illminatis	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:36:00 - [19] Originally by: Arkyk Edited by: Arkyk on 30/10/2007 21:13:57 Edited by: Arkyk on 30/10/2007 21:13:30 I'll just quote myself from the locked thread: "I can see why they removed the ISK, but at the same time, I wouldn't have put you into the negative. 0 ISK would have been just fine. At least then you could actually play." Originally by: Tarminic Then why is it so hard to sell 41 million ISK of it exactly? Can you sell items without having any money to pay the fee to set the sale up? Originally by: Barbaro55a You bought isk and went 40 mil in debt Are you looking into your crystal ball to see this? The character had bought 400mil isk and had 350 left. if the GMs took 350mil, then there is a magical 50mil left in game (in the form of a ship/mod, which the GM didn't take). Since this person clearly has more than one account, he can transfer isk to get a positive balance.
Ard UnjiiGo The Bastards	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:53:00 - [20] No valid complaint(whine) here imo. Two words: Caveat Emptor It's not CCP's problem - it's yours. Own it and move on. "the Yarr is strong with this one" -Azirapheal

Loyal Servant Caldari Viper Intel Squad Pure.	Posted - 2007.10.30 22:23:00 - [21] YOU BOUGHT ISK - YOU SHOULD BE BANNED. Get over yourself! BOOOOOO ISK FARMER SUPPORTERS.
Arkyk Viper Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.10.31 00:49:00 - [22] Originally by: Illminatis The character had bought 400mil isk and had 350 left. if the GMs took 350mil, then there is a magical 50mil left in game (in the form of a ship/mod, which the GM didn't take). Right, but I don't see that as much of a problem in this case. Apparently this particular situation doesn't happen very often/ever since they didn't even have a policy to cover it, so I would have personally have cut the OP some slack here. But like you guys have said, there are ways around the negative balance, so even then I guess it's not a big deal. Originally by: Frug Whining to CCP because someone gave you a junk character for free is just stupid. We can agree on that. Anybody have any free characters they don't want? =P ---------------- Mostly harmless.
Agif Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.31 01:35:00 - [23] I agree He isn't guilty he is just guilty of not doing a transfer of 1 isk for the char which is CCP's crppy way of keeping tabs on this. CCP just give him the isk back he didnt know and the transfer wasn't done for RL money so i dont see a problem here. CCP couldn't throw a party in a brewery successfully anyways let alone fix all the problems in this game so im not surprised complaints of mis management and poor service. My advice take it with a pinch of salt buy a 90 Day GTC and fix ur wallet and dont give ccp the excuse to do this again
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.10.31 02:06:00 - [24] Edited by: Vitrael on 31/10/2007 02:07:03 So wait. You got a character from your friend and the isk came with? So the dirty isk got removed and you're complaining? You got it for free, you don't get to complain when it turns out to be illegitimate and gets taken away. Just donate isk to the character if you want its wallet positive. Had your friend NOT given you the character, the isk still would've gone away. ___________ I learned to accept ship changes months ago. Suddenly I enjoy Eve. You should try it some time.
Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.10.31 04:51:00 - [25] Originally by: Barbaro55a I'm allready bored of this thread. I personaly think your not telling the whole truth. Yes CCP should send messages informing when they have removed funs but thats a seperate issue. You bought isk and went 40 mil in debt, a tiny ammount compared to your supposed wealth. You got cought, be a man and deal with it. You completely missed the point of the post. The toon that I transfered from a Corp mate had apparently bought isk, I did not. I had no idea that the toon had bought isk in its past. When CCP discovered that this toon had bought isk, they didn't bother to check that it had already been transfered to my account from another, they just took isk. I DIDN'T BUY ISK. Read the thread before you post.
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.10.31 04:55:00 - [26] The isk would have been taken from the character regardless of whether or not you had received it. CCP was in the right. ___________ I learned to accept ship changes months ago. Suddenly I enjoy Eve. You should try it some time.
Sobach Gallente Fourth Circle Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.10.31 05:08:00 - [27] If the isk the GM took came with the character, then I say they're just following the rule when taking it away. Sucks for you, but hey, just roll with the punches. If the isk didn't came with the character and you had put those isks there after you got the character, then I'd say you have a valid case for complain.
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.31 05:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso Originally by: Barbaro55a I'm allready bored of this thread. I personaly think your not telling the whole truth. Yes CCP should send messages informing when they have removed funs but thats a seperate issue. You bought isk and went 40 mil in debt, a tiny ammount compared to your supposed wealth. You got cought, be a man and deal with it. You completely missed the point of the post. The toon that I transfered from a Corp mate had apparently bought isk, I did not. I had no idea that the toon had bought isk in its past. When CCP discovered that this toon had bought isk, they didn't bother to check that it had already been transfered to my account from another, they just took isk. I DIDN'T BUY ISK. Read the thread before you post. I understand that the character was given to you for free. The fact that the character has a balance of -41m isk means that you get the character for 41m isk. Seems like a cheap deal for a character. 41m isk is nothing. If you actually have 4b and are whining about 41m you need your head read. Quote: "... I doubt they would have the skillpoints and cap fleet to take and make soverignty over a large established alliance like BoB."
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.31 05:35:00 - [29] TEH TOONS, THEY DO NOTHING! Spell with me you 'tard: C H A R A C T E R or A L T It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Ather Ialeas Amarr Exercitus Solus	Posted - 2007.10.31 06:22:00 - [30] You're saying that there's a loophole on how to get bought ISK laundered...just buy it to some character, get expensive gear, leave it to space and pick it up with another character, sell the original character using eBay/some not 100% allowed method, profit in all ways imaginable. Cunning. Courageous, but Pique. -

Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.10.31 08:42:00 - [31] Originally by: Sister Libertina I guess what everyone really wants to know is ... how much does a billion isk cost in pound sterling? Go sit in Jita (or any other widely accessed channel) and you'll find out the same way as everyone else does. You might need to run your own currency conversion, however. Originally by: Barbaro55a Yes CCP should send messages informing when they have removed funds but thats a separate issue. No, in this thread it isn't. The OP specifically mentioned it to begin with. That hardly makes the idea irrelevant, especially when considering the situation which was subsequently outlined by the OP. Originally by: Kuolematon TEH TOONS, THEY DO NOTHING! Spell with me you 'tard: C H A R A C T E R or A L T People coming to EVE from different gaming backgrounds call them (characters, alts, toons) different names, but mean the same thing by it. As for calling someone a "'tard" for using a word you don't happen to like used for that particular purpose, I refer you to the proverb "Physician, heal thyself.". And as for the OP, From what I read it looks like you're being unfairly punished for something that isn't your fault. At the end of the day, you have (perhaps albeit indirectly) paid CCP for the privilege of a character transfer from another account to one of your own ownership and then had the tangible value of that character depreciated through no malicious deed of your own. That you can transfer ISK between two characters to address the imbalance in one is irrelevant - that you now have to do so is not ... ... as for those of you mindlessly cheering the removal of ISK from the account of someone who is in effect an innocent victim of an unfortunately flawed aspect of an otherwise crucial CCP policy - lacking as we are of sure proof of anything more machiavellian than that on the part of the OP - I heartily encourage CCP to further pursue their efforts with zeal until they can somehow excuse your own fiscal detraction as well. If you do decide to walk away as a customer, OP, I can't say I'd blame you for doing it. Despite my own continuing investment in EVE accounts I expect I too would be facing a difficult decision when standing on the precipice you've been punted towards.
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.10.31 08:56:00 - [32] I don't see how the OP got punished. He received no formal warning, nor a ban. All that happened was that the ISK that was on his character was removed. That would have happened anyway because dirty ISK does not belong in the game's economy. That the OP was innocent of buying ISK would and should not prevent that. All it should prevent is further repercussions to the account or the character. Even if the character was clean, the ISK was dirty. That is why it was removed. And why is transfering 45M from an alt such a big concern? Especially from a player with 4b worth of assets? Is it that hard to accept that 45M was the actual price of aquiring that character? You make it sound like the character's wealth was the only thing of value on it, rather than it's skills.
Fortis Rosa	Posted - 2007.10.31 08:57:00 - [33] First- if your story is true then you have my condolences Second- This may not be what you want to hear but the person who did you wrong is in fact the so called corp"mate" who gave you the character. He bought isk and never told you that the 400 mill was hot currency and as such could be taken away at any momewnt. CCP just did what is best for EvE and removed bought isk (kudos to them). Sorry for your loss (not much anyway tbh). Thankyou CCP
HelloKitty ToYou	Posted - 2007.10.31 09:38:00 - [34] Originally by: Ather Ialeas You're saying that there's a loophole on how to get bought ISK laundered...just buy it to some character, get expensive gear, leave it to space and pick it up with another character, sell the original character using eBay/some not 100% allowed method, profit in all ways imaginable. Cunning. Courageous, but Pique. that would be a good way to use a throwaway alt on another account to drop billions in modules off at your front door of your main.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.31 10:26:00 - [35] There is a fairly good reason to take away the isk from the account and not returning them after the petition, especially as the character was sold for 0 isk: if it was possible to transfer a character with brought isk without negative effects to the person buying him it would be the perfect system to sell isk. step by step: 1) create alt (no need for skills) on a regular account payd with GTC 2) transfer the farmed isk to the alt (let's say 1 billion) 3) transfer the character to the isk buyer (adding the cost of the transfer to the isk cost) 4) the buyer transfer the isk to his main and trash the brought alt 5) farmer profit from isk selling, buyer get his isk without risk. Sorry for the OP, but really the loss is minor if he has 4 billions in assets.
ZeroMbutCannotJump	Posted - 2007.10.31 11:35:00 - [36] Edited by: ZeroMbutCannotJump on 31/10/2007 11:36:04 What would be the right thing to do if the following is what occurred: Eleven months ago, a guy buys 400m isk. He continues playing the game as normal. Buying modules, mining, selling ships. He reaches 0 ISK several times, reaches 700m ISK once, then by the time he feels like quitting EVE, he has 27 million ISK. His corpmate is sad to see him quit EVE, and since they are OK friends in-game, asks if he can have his character. The guy says "Sure. I'll transfer it to you for free using the official CCP approved transfer method." So he does. The guy's friend uses his cool new character for 6 months. He makes ISK, loses ISK, buys modules, sells modules. On Tuesday he logs out, with 360m ISK on his character. On Wednesday he logs in and there is -40m ISK on his character. He petitions, and you know the rest.
Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.10.31 11:42:00 - [37] Originally by: Shanur I don't see how the OP got punished. They logged in to an account only find a large amount of ISK gone from one of their characters. This isn't exactly a pat on the back for them. Originally by: Shanur He received no formal warning, Or indeed a warning of any kind and no explanation until one was provoked. Originally by: Shanur All that happened was that the ISK that was on his character was removed. Precisely, so they were penalized by this. Also, the OP states the response to their petition was that ISK was removed because it came from a character who was known to sell ISK. As far as we know, the specific wallet transaction involved wasn't even cited to back this ruling up. For example, after reading something as ambiguous as that I'd then be a little bit concerned even selling something of reasonably high value on the market or via contracts when the person who buys it could end up being tied into ISK selling around that time too. The next thing you know, you wake up missing a Battleship BPO worth of ISK and your wallet is the one in the red. After all, you got the so-called "illegitimate" ISK during your transaction. Originally by: Shanur That would have happened anyway because dirty ISK does not belong in the game's economy. That the OP was innocent of buying ISK would and should not prevent that. All it should prevent is further repercussions to the account or the character. Even if the character was clean, the ISK was dirty. That is why it was removed. One could argue the ISK a macro miner sells is exactly the same as ISK created by players doing exactly the same thing as the macro, ratting or missioning. While the mechanics of acquisition are different (programming v.s. playing) the sources drawn from in-game are completely the same. The ISK itself isn't illegitimate, only the reason for creating and specifically transferring it is illegitimate. In a virtual economy like EVE, unless every unit of ISK is being individually serialized for tracking and verification then the entire sum of it, no matter the specific amount involved, is completely fungible within the economy. Please don't get me wrong, I have an adamantine dislike for the "gold farming" industry and would gladly see the day when every gold farmer around the world is tossed out of the entertainment they parasitically infest. The removal of the ISK from the direct perpetrators of the above illegitimacy and their supportive clientele is a step in the right direction till that day is realized but it shouldn't be allowed to inflict collateral damages on people playing in good faith further down the economy chain and in irregular circumstances. But the worst bureaucracy in government or business is one that blindly applies policy to people without room for variables or human interest. When do we start to fine or otherwise reprimand the law abiding citizenry when they purchase the house of a (effectively dead) criminal? Unless CCP is truly running scared (and hysterically so) from inflation in EVE all of a sudden, then using a flimsy, loop-hole excuse for their actions such as "Ah, but you didn't trade the character for ISK at all!" stinks of a failure to treat a paying client fairly in extenuating circumstances. Originally by: Shanur And why is transfering 45M from an alt such a big concern? Especially from a player with 4b worth of assets? Is it that hard to accept that 45M was the actual price of aquiring that character? The point is that it is a negative/disruptive impact they shouldn't have to deal with at all, because they haven't done anything wrong themselves to warrant the action taken against them! (Damn character limit.)
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.31 11:49:00 - [38] so, let's say i buy a character on the char-trade forums. that character had bought a few billions of ISK on ebay, but he didn't tell me that for obvious reasons, and he doesn't have those isk anymore anyways. the char transfer takes place, i get a nice char with 0 isk, nice skillpoints and a few assets. suddenly, a few days after, i log in and find that char with -5billion isk because a GM acted. so... this is more or less what happened to the OP (except he didn't buy the char, but got it for free)... and you seriously think it's ok or fair? fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.10.31 11:51:00 - [39] Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso The player owning the character was a Corp mate and friend. He decided to quit playing and I simply, and publicly, asked if I could have his character (toon). He said, sure. And I paid for the transfer fee. This is not allowed. When a character is transferred, the seller is required to pay the transfer fee. Otherwise, it's just you paying for a character with cash. Also, as has been pointed out before, if they let your friend buy isk and then give you the character to gain immunity from that crime, that would open a loophole to let people get away with buying isk by having a friend sign up, buy isk and give them their character. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.10.31 11:52:00 - [40] Originally by: Kayna Eelai so... this is more or less what happened to the OP (except he didn't buy the char, but got it for free)... and you seriously think it's ok or fair? Except that the OP has said that CCP specifically stated that the fact that the character was free was why they weren't reversing the decision. ----- Visible Implants - good for so many occasions

Estel Arador Minmatar AFK	Posted - 2007.10.31 11:59:00 - [41] Originally by: Kayna Eelai so, let's say i buy a character on the char-trade forums. that character had bought a few billions of ISK on ebay, but he didn't tell me that for obvious reasons, and he doesn't have those isk anymore anyways. the char transfer takes place, i get a nice char with 0 isk, nice skillpoints and a few assets. suddenly, a few days after, i log in and find that char with -5billion isk because a GM acted. so... this is more or less what happened to the OP (except he didn't buy the char, but got it for free)... and you seriously think it's ok or fair? Your example isn't quite the same case, since OP explicitly stated that Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso because the toon had been given to me instead of me having purchased it, they would not be able to return the isk taken from my wallet. And I hate people who say stuff like this: Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso Is it worth losing a paying customer, who holds two active accounts, over this trivial quantity of isk? Realise that noone is going to miss you or your two accounts after your failed attempt at isk laundering. I'd rather have a clean game with 2 accounts less than a game where anyone can get away with buying isk. =AFK=
Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.10.31 12:06:00 - [42] Originally by: Venkul Mul Sorry for the OP, but really the loss is minor if he has 4 billions in assets. I keep getting surprised by people saying this, because I think it is a little misguided, really. You can't necessarily have that four billion ISK of assets existing in a tidy pile of immediate liquidity to solve all your problems whenever they arise. Not to mention that minor still doesn't equate fair or reasonable. Last I heard it wasn't fair or reasonable to knock someone out because they look like someone else (but aren't), steal an organ and leave them unconscious in an ice bath even if you understand they'll survive and can just "get more" - thus making it only a minor loss for them.

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2007.10.31 12:12:00 - [43] Since someone sold ISK to that character, the ISK was removed. Changing ownership does not change that since it would simply be used to launder money. I think you misunderstood one thing though, if you had purchased the character for ISK and the owner would have misrepresented the status of that character, we could reverse the character sale. Since the character was given to you our policy is that you get it as is, with all up and downsides to it. We would not have given you the ISK back if you had purchased the character though, only reversed the character purchase. Wrangler Community Manager EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang "The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.10.31 12:12:00 - [44] Originally by: Nyphur This is not allowed. When a character is transferred, the seller is required to pay the transfer fee. Nothing actually says that the OP paid CCP the transfer fee and that is what matters. The owner of the account where the character originated probably paid CCP the transfer fee as required, and a week later could have easily found a case of beer on his porch - or something along those lines.
Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.10.31 12:33:00 - [45] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Since someone sold ISK to that character, the ISK was removed. So you (CCP) won't differentiate between past and current character owners, okay. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Changing ownership does not change that since it would simply be used to launder money. Then shouldn't CCP be working on a mechanism to prevent that, rather than penalize the players further on down the line and those who are acting in good faith, no less? Seems a bit like bombing the wrong house because you know it is the wrong house, but someone bad you want to kill could still be living there, just because it is a house. If only the village didn't have such a nice nice view, I'd think about moving. Originally by: CCP Wrangler I think you misunderstood one thing though, if you had purchased the character for ISK and the owner would have misrepresented the status of that character, we could reverse the character sale. So if they'd gone to the efforts of posting EVEmails to each other, and 1 ISK had changed hands at some point in relation to the content of those EVEmails, then they (OP) would have been protected? That seems a bit pointless, if you don't mind me saying so. In fact, I'd have to say it seems petty. Your choice of language is a little confusing here though, "and the owner would have misrepresented the status of that character" - I take it this means had they not expressly said in the EVEmail "Oh, by the way, I bought ISK." the new owner would then be protected ... to an extent. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Since the character was given to you our policy is that you get it as is, with all up and downsides to it. We would not have given you the ISK back if you had purchased the character though, only reversed the character purchase. So since the character was given, you would've reversed the character purchase for them. Which ... would have put the character back into the deactivated account of the person who is probably never coming back. Would it also have refunded them (the one never coming back) the cost of transfer too? Oh, and left the OP with ... sorry, what then? A rock and a hard place?
Estel Arador Minmatar AFK	Posted - 2007.10.31 12:40:00 - [46] Edited by: Estel Arador on 31/10/2007 12:40:30 Originally by: Joss Sparq Which ... would have put the character back into the deactivated account of the person who is probably never coming back. Would it also have refunded them (the one never coming back) the cost of transfer too? So don't pay to transfer characters you've bought isk with, that way you won't lose the cash paid for the transer (in addition to the cash paid for the isk). Originally by: Joss Sparq Oh, and left the OP with ... sorry, what then? A rock and a hard place? And left the OP with exactly what he had before the transfer. No harm done, I figure. =AFK=
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.10.31 12:53:00 - [47] Edited by: Nyphur on 31/10/2007 12:54:23 Originally by: Joss Sparq Originally by: Nyphur This is not allowed. When a character is transferred, the seller is required to pay the transfer fee. Nothing actually says that the OP paid CCP the transfer fee and that is what matters. The owner of the account where the character originated probably paid CCP the transfer fee as required, and a week later could have easily found a case of beer on his porch - or something along those lines. No, his friend gave him a character with the condition that he give his friend an amount of cash. That's paying for the character with cash, at least according to a post by Wrangler on the issue a few months back. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.10.31 12:56:00 - [48] Well the call was right. Sold ISK, take it out. Now, you got a free character. Liquidate assets and presto, you should be on the + side. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.10.31 12:59:00 - [49] Edited by: Joss Sparq on 31/10/2007 13:08:47 (Quote tags get the better of me) Originally by: Estel Arador Edited by: Estel Arador on 31/10/2007 12:40:30 Originally by: Joss Sparq Which ... would have put the character back into the deactivated account of the person who is probably never coming back. Would it also have refunded them (the one never coming back) the cost of transfer too? So don't pay to transfer characters you've bought isk with, that way you won't lose the cash paid for the transer (in addition to the cash paid for the isk). Well actually I think it is rather obvious that an otherwise perfectly good character is going to for all practical purposes get trashed that way, making the keeping of the character by the new owner the more reasonable (if still unpalatable) option for them to pursue. Which still leaves them with a gaping whole to fill in the wallet because they're not "protected". And for crying out loud, it should be clear by now if anyone is still reading this thread that the OP hasn't been laundering ISK. They're making a complaint about how they're being treated because they feel like an innocent party maligned. We should not be concerned about the rights of the person who has since left the game who paid for the transfer and is the one accused of instigating the offense. They're not the OP, the OP is the second party, the victim not the instigator, who is making the complaint. My point is that I'd be rather annoyed were I the OP to find that the person who has caused me this trouble is potentially getting their money back, when my choice (were I "protected") is between a very rudely discovered price tag to un-gimp my character and no character at all. Originally by: Estel Arador Originally by: Joss Sparq Oh, and left the OP with ... sorry, what then? A rock and a hard place? And left the OP with exactly what he had before the transfer. No harm done, I figure. Except a lot needless grief and a failure by the customer support system to protect paying clients (I'm going to be sick if I have to keep repeating this) who apply themselves to their deeds with good faith which I would have thought means they deserve better than ... this. Would it be that unreasonable, for example, if the (common or garden) GM was unable to withdraw the ISK below the amount (5000) afforded every new player to the game? At least that way one could begin to liquidate any assets that character alone has, without too much difficulty in doing so - especially if they're not so lucky as to have a second account, friends or a GTC (or indeed the spare cash budgeted to buy one) to facilitate it?
Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.10.31 13:02:00 - [50] Edited by: Joss Sparq on 31/10/2007 13:04:43 Whoops! Too ... many ... tabs open!


CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.10.31 13:13:00 - [51] Originally by: Joss Sparq Originally by: CCP Wrangler Since someone sold ISK to that character, the ISK was removed. So you (CCP) won't differentiate between past and current character owners, okay. Ofcourse not. If I were to steal AMDs newest CPU before they launched it, put it in my desktop at home and then sell that desktop computer to you.. you think IBM would lose their legal claim on the CPU? It's still stolen property and will be confiscated from you were they to discover you possessed it, no? We're reclaiming illegaly obtained goods, not bombing anyone. The OP wasn't penalized, the character he bought was taken down a peg to be equal with others i.e. his networth was put to where it should be. It sucks to buy stolen goods without knowing it and then have to deal with the authority knocking on your door, but you can't state the authority is being unfair. It would be unfair against the original victim if you were allowed to keep the goods. Justice is when given rules govern everybody regardless of their situation, anything else is favouritism. ~ Prism X EvE Ectoplasmic Database Developer, Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.10.31 13:28:00 - [52] Edited by: Joss Sparq on 31/10/2007 13:35:42 (Edit: oops, I thought I sounded familiar. Oh well, H.L. Mencken is dead, right?) Originally by: CCP Prism X It sucks to buy stolen goods without knowing it and then have to deal with the authority knocking on your door, but you can't state the authority is being unfair. What happens when the authority removes those stolen goods and leaves the Second victim (in this case the OP, if you will) without recompense for the actions of the authority? Originally by: CCP Prism X It would be unfair against the original victim if you were allowed to keep the goods. Who to you is ... ? Originally by: CCP Prism X Justice is when given rules govern everybody regardless of their situation, anything else is favouritism. So you're saying there isn't any room in you justice to account for whom I contest is the victim here? Then it would seem that injustice is relatively easy to bear, it is justice that wounds us more.
Vele Nori Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.31 13:33:00 - [53] The OP should be upset with her friend rather than CCP for giving her a character that was used to receive bought ISK and not telling her about it thus putting her account at risk. If she also transfered some of her own money to this char that also got nuked, her friend should also receive the blame.
El Mauru Amarr A Black Knight Corp FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.31 13:36:00 - [54] I totally agree with the CCP side of things here though my sympathies go to the poor guy creamed by all this. It would certainly make things a whole lot easier if in the future, the suspected perpetrators ("or their new owners") get informed by some eve-mail or sth. It could be some bot-automated thing for all I care, but having to find out yourself what happened certainly sounds frustrating. - Recruiting! Convo ingame for details
MinSebsis Minmatar CyPhEr TeChNoLoGiEs EvE Consortium	Posted - 2007.10.31 13:38:00 - [55] Quote: It sucks to buy stolen goods without knowing it and then have to deal with the authority knocking on your door, but you can't state the authority is being unfair. It would be unfair against the original victim if you were allowed to keep the goods. Justice is when given rules govern everybody regardless of their situation, anything else is favouritism. QFT
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.10.31 13:39:00 - [56] A character should not be put in debth IMHO. If ISK was sold or whatnot, take it back, fine. But don't put the character to minus millions ISK, it just doesn't make any sense. Don't forget this is a game and people want to have fun, everything else is rubbish IMHO. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.10.31 13:40:00 - [57] Edited by: CCP Prism X on 31/10/2007 13:41:03 I'm not here to argue my opinion against yours. Bought ISK is reversed, period. Either we always do that, or we never. There are no fringe cases. You want us to stop fighting against ISK sellers you're welcome to that opinion. We don't share it. When someone buys ISK the victim is the entire eve population. That's the crime here: ISK was bought, a characters value was unfairly adjusted, we fixed it. The crime which victimized the OP was that he bought a bad product. He also did so outside the protocols put in place by us so there's no appealing to us as it's outside our scope. If you buy something in international waters, outside any trading regulations, you have no trading regulations to cite broken if need be.. like when it turns out you bought a forgery. You maintain that we're being unfair to the OP by following the rules and regulations we set in place and is common knowledge to everyone. I maintain that we'd be unfair to everyone else if we didn't. Our opinions on just actions are obviously based on mighty different principles so there's no arguing this. Fact of the matter is that if we see ISK being bought we reverse the transaction for the sake of EVE. EOF. ~ Prism X EvE Ectoplasmic Database Developer, Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Bodwad Gallente British Federation	Posted - 2007.10.31 14:03:00 - [58] shouldnt you be moaning to the friend that gave you the account. He wasnt a very good eve player if he had to buy isk. I see nothing wrong in CCP's actions. Rules are rules.
MrTriggerHappy Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.31 14:11:00 - [59] Edited by: MrTriggerHappy on 31/10/2007 14:14:07 Just out of curisoity CCP.. What your saying is.. If the character had been sold for isk, and was misrepresented - you would refund this? However because it was given to him he still looses out. But in this all, he paid you (CCP) real cash for the transfer, shouldnt this still allow some protection? Edit: Yes I do see the point being made about trying to stop ISK sellers. I just wanted to ask a question in relation to paying for a transfer fee if the characters assets arent protected -------------------------------- My Comments in no way reflect my corp or alliance
Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.10.31 14:14:00 - [60] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 31/10/2007 13:41:03 I'm not here to argue my opinion against yours. I have guessed as much by now, heh. Originally by: CCP Prism X Bought ISK is reversed, period. Either we always do that, or we never. Pity, especially since I think your actions, however noble you think they are, only punish the wrong person while the person who is really doing wrong still has his ill-gotten dollars. Originally by: CCP Prism X There are no fringe cases. Also a pity, as I said I think the wrong person is taking the hit here for a crime they didn't commit while, in fact, two other parties (ISK seller, buyer) walk away. Originally by: CCP Prism X You want us to stop fighting against ISK sellers you're welcome to that opinion. Excuse me, but I never said anything of the sort. Quite the opposite of it in fact. Please be careful not to misrepresent what I've said previously. Originally by: CCP Prism X When someone buys ISK the victim is the entire eve population. That's the crime here: ISK was bought, a characters value was unfairly adjusted, we fixed it. Though in doing so aren't you in fact compounding the victimization of the OP. They didn't even realize they were any sort of victim or had an unfair advantage as you put it until an authority involved itself in their character wallet. Originally by: CCP Prism X The crime which victimized the OP was that he bought a bad product. He also did so outside the protocols put in place by us so there's no appealing to us as it's outside our scope. So then your protocols are at fault, due to lack of scope. Originally by: CCP Prism X If you buy something in international waters, outside any trading regulations, you have no trading regulations to cite broken if need be.. like when it turns out you bought a forgery. It is also a pity you're not here to argue your opinion with me, because I find this all very interesting. If you're saying the character, as a package (including wallet) can be forged, cannot an anti-forgery mechanism be introduced at some point prior to the transfer taking place to stop this situation arising again? Has CCP considered delaying transfer until the wallet of the character involved is checked? Originally by: CCP Prism X You maintain that we're being unfair to the OP by following the rules and regulations we set in place and is common knowledge to everyone. I maintain you are, yes. Originally by: CCP Prism X I maintain that we'd be unfair to everyone else if we didn't. Our opinions on just actions are obviously based on mighty different principles so there's no arguing this. Fact of the matter is that if we see ISK being bought we reverse the transaction for the sake of EVE. EOF. I think seeking understanding from debate is better than arguing but I'm as resigned to be subjected to the "greater good" argument now, so be it. I'd rather go make a cup of tea at this point. Thank you for your response to my posts, though. I hope the OP gets something out of it. It'd be a good start.

Xilimyth Derlin The Funkalistic SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.31 14:16:00 - [61] I still don't understand honestly what the big deal was. - The trade was done with an out-of-character-trading-system negotiation, with oubvious connections to an ISK seller. - CCP Removes the ISK to get it out of the system as it WAS purchased from ISK sellers further inflating the economy (think of the newbies) - You're oubviously a veteran player with 4bil in assets.... 40 million is what? One level 4 mission on a bad day? One good 0.0 complex run? If this was something crazy like, say, 400m ISK, negative 2bil isk.... if you had no alts and didn't know the rules, a new player coming into Eve, yea, this would be crippling and I'd say for the GMs to take away all the 'stuff' give a new 'starting package' and be done with it, but SURELY you can make up 40mil O-o.... I mean, my sister goes to Pharmacy school, only gets to play around 6 hours a week MAX, and she can make that much just goofing around. We ARE only talking about a petty 1% of your total game assets (liquid or not).
ry ry StateCorp The State	Posted - 2007.10.31 14:19:00 - [62] Edited by: ry ry on 31/10/2007 14:23:00 Quote: Just out of curisoity CCP.. What your saying is.. If the character had been sold for isk, and was misrepresented - you would refund this? However because it was given to him he still looses out. But in this all, he paid you (CCP) real cash for the transfer, shouldnt this still allow some protection? Edit: Yes I do see the point being made about trying to stop ISK sellers. I just wanted to ask a question in relation to paying for a transfer fee if the characters assets arent protected the point is; although CCP may or may not have ****** over a paying customer, if they didn't do that then isk sellers would be able to keep their characters after their isk is confiscated. personally, i'm not convinced your average isk seller particularly cares if 'fsdfsdfsdf' is banned tbh. the whole thing is punitive. i think that if having anything to do with anybody who's ever bought isk becomes such a massive pain in the arse, ccp are hoping people will stop doing it. although the OP sounds like a big whinger. 40 mil? i'd give it to you myself if you hadn't been going on about your billions in assets all through the thread.
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.10.31 14:35:00 - [63] Originally by: Joss Sparq Edited by: Joss Sparq on 31/10/2007 13:35:42 (Edit: oops, I thought I sounded familiar. Oh well, H.L. Mencken is dead, right?) Originally by: CCP Prism X It sucks to buy stolen goods without knowing it and then have to deal with the authority knocking on your door, but you can't state the authority is being unfair. What happens when the authority removes those stolen goods and leaves the Second victim (in this case the OP, if you will) without recompense for the actions of the authority? The second victim demands compensation from the criminal in the first place, not the authority. Quote: So you're saying there isn't any room in you justice to account for whom I contest is the victim here? Then it would seem that injustice is relatively easy to bear, it is justice that wounds us more. So, I steal your car and sell it to a random person for 10$. Then the cops track the car to my friend, impounds it and delivers it back to you. Should the random person get his 10$ back from the police or me? CCP did the right thing, you and the OP is moaning to the wrong person. Get a hold of the one that sold the character in the first place and have him compensate the OP. CCP just returned the car to the rightful owner.
Minsc Gallente A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.31 14:57:00 - [64] Originally by: MrTriggerHappy Edited by: MrTriggerHappy on 31/10/2007 14:14:07 Just out of curisoity CCP.. What your saying is.. If the character had been sold for isk, and was misrepresented - you would refund this? No, they said if the transfer had been done following the protocols they set out then the character transfer would have been reversed, as well as the charge for it. Essentially the OP would have been out the character, but would have had the money paid for the transfer returned like none if it had happened IF he had followed CCP's guidlines. Quote: However because it was given to him he still looses out. Again, he looses out because he didn't follow CCP's instructions properly Quote: But in this all, he paid you (CCP) real cash for the transfer, shouldnt this still allow some protection? Edit: Yes I do see the point being made about trying to stop ISK sellers. I just wanted to ask a question in relation to paying for a transfer fee if the characters assets arent protected Originally by: Sharkbait please for the love of god read the dam stickies
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.10.31 15:07:00 - [65] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes CCP did the right thing, you and the OP is moaning to the wrong person. Get a hold of the one that sold the character in the first place and have him compensate the OP. CCP just returned the car to the rightful owner. QFT. Yes, the OP was terribly wronged. But not by CCP who are just making sure no one gets to reap the profits of cheating. He was wronged by his friend who gave him a character that was cheated with, and as such the friend should be the one to bear the blame and compensate the OP.
THCS Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.10.31 15:44:00 - [66] I would love to know what would happen in this case: person buys 1 billion isk, person buys ships modules ect ect has fun lose's it all and decides to quit game 2 weeks later, before he quits on that account, he sells the account using ccp guidelines with 0 isk and some scattered assets. New person buys account using CCP guidelines and continues using character, trains character and has general fun, 7 months down the line GM's investigating some isk farming ring come accross details of the 1 billion isk transaction and then -1 billion isk from the char leaving him in negatives. Now new owner claims no prior knowledge and starts petition ect. Now from whats been stated so far the origonal transaction would be reversed and the character would go back to the origonal account ect, now what I would be interested in knowing is the person who had purchased that char and trained it ect be eligble for a full 7 month refund on the account considering they have lost 7 months of gametime on that character because of the reversal? If they would not be eligble then again they would be punished by CCP for a crime they did not commit or would have no knowledge of the origonal seller commiting.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.31 15:50:00 - [67] let it be a lesson on how lame it is to buy characters? I'm currently involved in medical research, concerning the therapuetic aspects of a swift kick in the rear What do zombies and forum posters have in common? They like to sit about and moan!
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.10.31 15:55:00 - [68] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Since someone sold ISK to that character, the ISK was removed. Changing ownership does not change that since it would simply be used to launder money. I think you misunderstood one thing though, if you had purchased the character for ISK and the owner would have misrepresented the status of that character, we could reverse the character sale. Since the character was given to you our policy is that you get it as is, with all up and downsides to it. We would not have given you the ISK back if you had purchased the character though, only reversed the character purchase. Your whole stupid whine just got pwned by Wrangler. 2 points. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Druadan Gallente Aristotle Enterprises Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:00:00 - [69] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Since someone sold ISK to that character, the ISK was removed. Changing ownership does not change that since it would simply be used to launder money. I think you misunderstood one thing though, if you had purchased the character for ISK and the owner would have misrepresented the status of that character, we could reverse the character sale. Since the character was given to you our policy is that you get it as is, with all up and downsides to it. We would not have given you the ISK back if you had purchased the character though, only reversed the character purchase. Until I read this post I agreed with the OP, but on reflection it is truly a case of bad luck and consequence conspiring to rob the OP of his ISK. To provide a real-life example of a system similar to CCP's justice here, look to the Spanish property sales system. Debts are tied to properties, not owners, so when you buy a house you buy the property and all debts attached to the house. It is the responsibility of the purchaser to check that there are no debts attached to the house. Similarly, in this case the crimes of the previous owner were attached to the character, not the account. Why? Because without this ISK could be laundered and escape the domain of responsibility. One key difference, however, is that CCP does not provide a means to have a character checked out before purchase. One question I would like an answer to, is how does CCP determine whether a character was paid for, or given? -Dru Screw you, Jacques.
Druadan Gallente Aristotle Enterprises Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:04:00 - [70] Originally by: THCS I would love to know what would happen in this case: person buys 1 billion isk, person buys ships modules ect ect has fun lose's it all and decides to quit game 2 weeks later, before he quits on that account, he sells the account using ccp guidelines with 0 isk and some scattered assets. New person buys account using CCP guidelines and continues using character, trains character and has general fun, 7 months down the line GM's investigating some isk farming ring come accross details of the 1 billion isk transaction and then -1 billion isk from the char leaving him in negatives. Now new owner claims no prior knowledge and starts petition ect. Now from whats been stated so far the origonal transaction would be reversed and the character would go back to the origonal account ect, now what I would be interested in knowing is the person who had purchased that char and trained it ect be eligble for a full 7 month refund on the account considering they have lost 7 months of gametime on that character because of the reversal? If they would not be eligble then again they would be punished by CCP for a crime they did not commit or would have no knowledge of the origonal seller commiting. This is a VERY good point. In this case, CCP should provide a refund of the money used to pay for the account. Then it would be in CCP's interest to provide a much-needed method of getting a character checked out for ToS violations before purchasing. Screw you, Jacques.

Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:11:00 - [71] I wonder how CCP would respond to a petition reading: "I am about to buy this character for isk. Please check it for possible rule infringements asap so I do not waste too much effort if it is going to be found to have broken the rules." ----- Visible Implants - good for so many occasions

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:13:00 - [72] Originally by: Sorja A character should not be put in debth IMHO. If ISK was sold or whatnot, take it back, fine. But don't put the character to minus millions ISK, it just doesn't make any sense. Don't forget this is a game and people want to have fun, everything else is rubbish IMHO. Well, if you have nothing, you steal 100 million, spend 50 million and then get caught you'll still have to give 100 million back. Wrangler Community Manager EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang "The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

SN3263827 The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:15:00 - [73] Originally by: Adonis 4174 I wonder how CCP would respond to a petition reading: "I am about to buy this character for isk. Please check it for possible rule infringements asap so I do not waste too much effort if it is going to be found to have broken the rules." They would respond that they will not discuss GM actions with a third party. _____________________________________________ My Wishlist
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:17:00 - [74] Originally by: SN3263827 Originally by: Adonis 4174 I wonder how CCP would respond to a petition reading: "I am about to buy this character for isk. Please check it for possible rule infringements asap so I do not waste too much effort if it is going to be found to have broken the rules." They would respond that they will not discuss GM actions with a third party. But then if you bought it and requested it be investigated asap then they would give you your money back if they found it had bought isk, right? ----- Visible Implants - good for so many occasions
Indigo Johnson Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:17:00 - [75] Originally by: Sorja A character should not be put in debth IMHO. If ISK was sold or whatnot, take it back, fine. But don't put the character to minus millions ISK, it just doesn't make any sense. Don't forget this is a game and people want to have fun, everything else is rubbish IMHO. No, people should just stop buying isk .period. As the OP proves, buying isk hurts everyone, not just the buyer. Arguing that we all want to have fun and no one should have a negative balance is an extremely simplistic view to take.
Neena Valdi Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:25:00 - [76] Edited by: Neena Valdi on 31/10/2007 16:28:11 I dont really get what is OP complaining about? You didn't lose any ISK that were earned by you. The ISK came to you with character. You spent N mil ISK out of them, so CCP removed the initial ISK amount and now you are at -42 mil ISK. Why are you complaining? You already got a new (old depends on how we look at it) character for free while other players have to spend either their time and money to train a character or buy a character for a good amount of ISK. You must thank CCP for not baning your account actually...
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:30:00 - [77] Originally by: Adonis 4174 I wonder how CCP would respond to a petition reading: "I am about to buy this character for isk. Please check it for possible rule infringements asap so I do not waste too much effort if it is going to be found to have broken the rules." Interesting case. If nothing was wrong and the character was indeed put up for sale, the GM could give the character a clean bill of health (no sanctions to discuss after all). Consequently, them telling you they are unable to give that clean bill of health would indicate sufficiently something was amiss.... I doubt CCP would provide such a vetting service, putting significant strain on their already overworked GM resources, without a premium charge being involved. Maybe an additional feature of the existing character sales mechanics? A GM insigated character suspension(to prevent cheating after the approval was given) followed by a CCP issued seal of approval that the character is clean, suspension to be lifted after sale? But then that should be in another thread. As this one deals with transfers outside of the character trade mechanism.
Tenebrion Darkness Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:35:00 - [78] The only problem I see with the situation is not recieving any upfront explanation to the actions, in which I have some recent experience. I log on to see some random guy in corp (note I'm in an npc corp right now) giving away isk. He gave out aprox. 500m-1b in isk to a number of people. Another char and I were having a private convo as to the validity of his "generosity", and came to the conclusion that if anything was wrong we would be notified and action taken. Well, we were only half right. Sometime the next day the isk transfer is reversed by a gm, I go looking at evemail for an explanation, and empty, nothing. I petitioned (not for the isk back, since I knew that reversal was a possible outcome), asking for an explanation and recieved one in short order. Becuase of my escapade, I believe CCP needs to be a little more on the ball with notifying their customers of char/account edits. Would prob cut down on a few petitions like the one I sent.
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:42:00 - [79] Originally by: Neena Valdi Edited by: Neena Valdi on 31/10/2007 16:28:11 I dont really get what is OP complaining about? You didn't lose any ISK that were earned by you. The ISK came to you with character. You spent N mil ISK out of them, so CCP removed the initial ISK amount and now you are at -42 mil ISK. That isn't necessarily the case. The OP could have received the character with 0isk, transferred X amount of isk to the character from another of his own and had that isk taken away. _____________________________________________ My Wishlist
Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:43:00 - [80] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Well, if you have nothing, you steal 100 million, spend 50 million and then get caught you'll still have to give 100 million back. So, as covered here: Originally by: CCP Wrangler Since someone sold ISK to that character, the ISK was removed. Changing ownership does not change that since it would simply be used to launder money. I think you misunderstood one thing though, if you had purchased the character for ISK and the owner would have misrepresented the status of that character, we could reverse the character sale. Since the character was given to you our policy is that you get it as is, with all up and downsides to it. We would not have given you the ISK back if you had purchased the character though, only reversed the character purchase. - character transfer is ultimately unsafe for the buyer at the moment because they can still be penalized for the actions of the previous owner despite having no involvement or knowledge of those actions. At very best, they'll back the ISK they spent on the transfer. This raises an interesting question though: If they choose to reverse the transfer to get their ISK, how (if at all) is any training time they've paid for and used on that character compensated?

Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:46:00 - [81] same as every other market transaction in the world let the buyer beware and for that matter, if you are getting something for nothing, you really have to ask yourself what the hell is wrong with it I'm currently involved in medical research, concerning the therapuetic aspects of a swift kick in the rear What do zombies and forum posters have in common? They like to sit about and moan!
Valkrider	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:51:00 - [82] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Since someone sold ISK to that character, the ISK was removed. Changing ownership does not change that since it would simply be used to launder money. I think you misunderstood one thing though, if you had purchased the character for ISK and the owner would have misrepresented the status of that character, we could reverse the character sale. Since the character was given to you our policy is that you get it as is, with all up and downsides to it. We would not have given you the ISK back if you had purchased the character though, only reversed the character purchase. So Wrangler, from what you just wrote, are you telling us that it isn't safe to purchase characters even through the approved CCP method? Here's my example. Player X purchases Player Y from the forums with ISK (CCP legal way). Player X takes time and ISK to train up Player Y over a period of time, maybe even years. At some point, CCP determines that Player Y purchased ISK with actual cash. Even if proved before that character transfer took place, Player Y is still punished for whatever amount of ISK was purchased as deemed by CCP? So, Player X is having to pay for something that occured on Player Y's account even before Player X purchased it. I guess the point is, it is no longer safe to purchase characters via the approved method that CCP has in place. Cause you really don't know what the actual history of that character is or what actions a previous owner has done with it, up to and including purchasing ISK or Macro Mining perhaps. What this really boils down to is CCP dropping a nuke on the players because they won't get off their lazy butts to knock off the Macro Whatever's or the ISK farmers/sellers. Instead, they find it easier to go after some poor peep because that is simple. CCP, sometimes you guys amaze me, how the hell does this seem right? You have the logs to check the OPS story out, you can't punish someone for someone else's actions. You sound like the ******** management staff I have to work with. Punish the whole to affect the few, except the few only find other illegal ways around it while the whole has been set back. OMG, you are my managers!!! To the OP, I'm very sorry that you've been treated in this way. CCP has never been known to have any personal qualities in dealing with people. Their customer support blows, as is evident by so many posts and complaints on these forums. They obviously have NOT been to any personal management training, or just flat-out lack the common sense of right and wrong.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:51:00 - [83] Thinking about it, I think this has more in common with being passed counterfeit currency. In the UK certainly if you get a counterfeit ú20 then the best you can hope for is that it is taken away and burned. If you are suspicious about the note you can refuse to accept it yourself but once you take it the chances of ever seeing the real ú20 you were supposed to be getting are slim to none. ----- Visible Implants - good for so many occasions
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:55:00 - [84] Originally by: Valkrider So Wrangler, from what you just wrote, are you telling us that it isn't safe to purchase characters even through the approved CCP method? Here's my example. Player X purchases Player Y from the forums with ISK (CCP legal way). Player X takes time and ISK to train up Player Y over a period of time, maybe even years. At some point, CCP determines that Player Y purchased ISK with actual cash. Even if proved before that character transfer took place, Player Y is still punished for whatever amount of ISK was purchased as deemed by CCP? So, Player X is having to pay for something that occured on Player Y's account even before Player X purchased it. Even better - the character would be returned to Player Y, so he's just got X months of training paid for by the poor sap who bought the character from him, costing him only the transfer fee and however much he spent on isk. _____________________________________________ My Wishlist
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.31 16:59:00 - [85] Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 31/10/2007 16:59:28 he is also negative the isk from buying it AND the isk from the character sale, likely putting him down at least -4 bil minimum and we have yet to see a case of "a year" or even "months" so go take your tinfoil and cram it somewhere unpleasant you are paying for a servie, not a product, so the consumer bs in previous posts is laughable as well please quit, but for the love of god do NOT contract me your stuff, I know it will just get repossessed because you are too fail to make the isk yourself. I'm currently involved in medical research, concerning the therapuetic aspects of a swift kick in the rear What do zombies and forum posters have in common? They like to sit about and moan!
Elles D Caldari Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.31 17:08:00 - [86] This happened to me too so i can sympathise, i got it elevated to a senior GM and have not heard back yet; imo yes, it is appaling customer service.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.31 17:14:00 - [87] Edited by: Merdaneth on 31/10/2007 17:16:39 Originally by: CCP Prism X Ofcourse not. If I were to steal AMDs newest CPU before they launched it, put it in my desktop at home and then sell that desktop computer to you.. you think IBM would lose their legal claim on the CPU? It's still stolen property and will be confiscated from you were they to discover you possessed it, no? We're reclaiming illegaly obtained goods, not bombing anyone. The OP wasn't penalized, the character he bought was taken down a peg to be equal with others i.e. his networth was put to where it should be. It sucks to buy stolen goods without knowing it and then have to deal with the authority knocking on your door, but you can't state the authority is being unfair. It would be unfair against the original victim if you were allowed to keep the goods. Justice is when given rules govern everybody regardless of their situation, anything else is favouritism. Actually, under my national law, if you didn't suspect and had no real reason to suspect certain goods were stolen, you don't have to give it back to original victim. This is done precisely because it would be unfair to the unknowing and innocent buyer who has done his research to have the goods taken away from him when some other person comes up to claim it. However, getting something 'for free' from 'a friend' puts a lot of responsibility on the buyer to properly research the legality of transferred goods. On the other hand, paying normal price to a well known business would put little to no responsibility on the buyer to research it's origin. In this case, regardless of the guilt or innocence of the buyer, it's a deal 'too good to be true', and he should have done more checking, or accept a possible isk loss. On the other hand, if CCP tracks down illegal isk sales years after the fact to a character that has changed hands publically for reasonable prices several times, I would hardly be fair to punish the (innocent) most recent buyer, nor reverse possibly several character transfers until the character returns to the original isk buyer. Note: if AMD's suppliers had illegaly acquired some stolen components, which they sold to AMD, were made into processors, and through several vendors and resellers ended up in your PC, it would be highly odd if the original owner of those components came knocking on your door and demanding them back from you. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Abrazzar	Posted - 2007.10.31 17:20:00 - [88] CCP is perfectly in line with how any judical system wil treat you. If you are found with counterfeit money it will get confiscated and you might even face trial for distributing counterfeit money. If you buy stolen goods and found out, the stolen goods will be confiscated and you will face trial for handling stolen goods. No refunds for the confiscated goods will be given. If you are found to be doing this unknowingly you will be released free from the trial. You can then sue those who have given you the counterfeit or stolen goods for fraud and liabilities. CCP found out the character had bought ISK and thus confiscated the ISK. The OP was found innocent, so it didn't get a warning/ban. While the whine is understandable, pointing at CCP is the wrong direction. The one responsible for this issue is the "friend" who bought the ISK. The character transfer system CCP put in place is set up, as far as I know it, to keep the loss of the person buying the character at a minimum. The seller pays the RL cash for the transfer, thus preventing a financial loss for the buyer should the character be stained by fraudulence. The trade can be reversed, giving the buyer the ISK back. Only 'loss' would be training time or playing time that was invested on a dead end but as you pay for a service and not for a product or a result, CCP is in no way oblidged to reimburse for that perceived loss. Now if you have a universally applicable system that is more fair than what is used at the moment, feel free to share. I am sure CCP would love to improve their system to increase customer satisfaction. Of course keep in mind that the system also needs to be time efficient. Time is money, we're talking about a company after all. Cost efficiency <> customer satisfaction. MiniMax this and get a management position. fades back into obscurity
DirtyHarry Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.31 17:37:00 - [89] If the character was legally transfered to the new owner, and the previous owner had bought isk off farmers then there is no way the new owner should be punished, I know CCP have ** poor customer service, but thats just ridiculous. I know what I've said above doesn't match this current case, as most characters transfered will come with little or no isk, but even if it was his friend he shouldn't be punished for his actions. If I'm reading Wranglers response right then picture this situation: I buy a char off a random guy on the forum, who say 2 weeks before selling the character bought 1bill isk and spent it all on ships/mods/skills, he transfers me the character to my account with a wallet of 0 isk, the GMs then get around to investigating that particular character, they take 1billion out of the characters wallet and its now -1billion isk. So wtf then? sounds pretty *** stupid Wrangler. RKK INNIT - Havo / DH**
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.31 17:48:00 - [90] Originally by: Joss Sparq Originally by: Venkul Mul Sorry for the OP, but really the loss is minor if he has 4 billions in assets. I keep getting surprised by people saying this, because I think it is a little misguided, really. You can't necessarily have that four billion ISK of assets existing in a tidy pile of immediate liquidity to solve all your problems whenever they arise. Not to mention that minor still doesn't equate fair or reasonable. Last I heard it wasn't fair or reasonable to knock someone out because they look like someone else (but aren't), steal an organ and leave them unconscious in an ice bath even if you understand they'll survive and can just "get more" - thus making it only a minor loss for them. I see you don't have read the rest of the post. But to reply to your fair and reasonable question (leaving out the absurd example): 1) it was totally fair and reasonable removing all the isk that where on the character at the time of the transfer; 2) the alternative to removing the rest of the isk from the account, so putting him in the negative, would have been to remove assets present at the time of the transfer worth the rest of the sum, as those assets where brought with brought isk. But semi randomly removing items from an account could put the character in a very bad position and create serious problem for the pricing of the items not brought from NPC. Essentially a character transferred with isk or assets is subject to the isk removal up to the worth of the isk and assets present on the character at the time of the transfer. As some was arguing about getting item from a criminal and getting them seized: that is exactly what happens in real life. If you buy stolen items, even if you didn't know they where stolen, they are seized and returned to the original proprietary and there is not a guarantee you get your money back. If a criminal give you money as a gift (let's say he is your uncle) they can be seized by the law officers to pay the people he damaged.

Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.31 17:59:00 - [91] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 31/10/2007 17:59:22 Originally by: MrTriggerHappy Edited by: MrTriggerHappy on 31/10/2007 14:14:07 Just out of curisoity CCP.. What your saying is.. If the character had been sold for isk, and was misrepresented - you would refund this? However because it was given to him he still looses out. But in this all, he paid you (CCP) real cash for the transfer, shouldnt this still allow some protection? Edit: Yes I do see the point being made about trying to stop ISK sellers. I just wanted to ask a question in relation to paying for a transfer fee if the characters assets arent protected That is why the seller pay the transfer fee.
Moraguth Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.31 18:14:00 - [92] Originally by: MrTriggerHappy Edited by: MrTriggerHappy on 31/10/2007 14:14:07 Just out of curisoity CCP.. What your saying is.. If the character had been sold for isk, and was misrepresented - you would refund this? However because it was given to him he still looses out. But in this all, he paid you (CCP) real cash for the transfer, shouldnt this still allow some protection? Edit: Yes I do see the point being made about trying to stop ISK sellers. I just wanted to ask a question in relation to paying for a transfer fee if the characters assets arent protected If the character transfer had been paid with isk, CCP would be able to reverse the sale and give the OP his isk back. It would not change the fact that THAT character would be in debt. Nothing CCP has done is to the OP, it's to that character. If the guy is ****ed, he should take it out on his "friend", not on CCP. good game

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2007.10.31 18:15:00 - [93] Originally by: DirtyHarry If the character was legally transfered to the new owner, and the previous owner had bought isk off farmers then there is no way the new owner should be punished, I know CCP have ** poor customer service, but thats just ridiculous. I know what I've said above doesn't match this current case, as most characters transfered will come with little or no isk, but even if it was his friend he shouldn't be punished for his actions. If I'm reading Wranglers response right then picture this situation: I buy a char off a random guy on the forum, who say 2 weeks before selling the character bought 1bill isk and spent it all on ships/mods/skills, he transfers me the character to my account with a wallet of 0 isk, the GMs then get around to investigating that particular character, they take 1billion out of the characters wallet and its now -1billion isk. So wtf then? sounds pretty *** stupid Wrangler. If the new owner has this happen to him, he can petition, have the character transfer reversed and get the ISK he used to purchase the character back. In this case, he didn't purchase the character so he hasn't lost any ISK. If you would purchase a character for ISK, the character turns out to get a negative balance because the previous owner bought ISK, you can petition it and have the character transfer reversed, you would then get back the ISK you used to buy the character. Wrangler Community Manager** EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang "The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

Moraguth Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.31 18:28:00 - [94] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Originally by: DirtyHarry If the character was legally transfered to the new owner, and the previous owner had bought isk off farmers then there is no way the new owner should be punished, I know CCP have ** poor customer service, but thats just ridiculous. I know what I've said above doesn't match this current case, as most characters transfered will come with little or no isk, but even if it was his friend he shouldn't be punished for his actions. If I'm reading Wranglers response right then picture this situation: I buy a char off a random guy on the forum, who say 2 weeks before selling the character bought 1bill isk and spent it all on ships/mods/skills, he transfers me the character to my account with a wallet of 0 isk, the GMs then get around to investigating that particular character, they take 1billion out of the characters wallet and its now -1billion isk. So wtf then? sounds pretty ***** stupid Wrangler. If the new owner has this happen to him, he can petition, have the character transfer reversed and get the ISK he used to purchase the character back. In this case, he didn't purchase the character so he hasn't lost any ISK. If you would purchase a character for ISK, the character turns out to get a negative balance because the previous owner bought ISK, you can petition it and have the character transfer reversed, you would then get back the ISK you used to buy the character. No worries Wrangler, we aren't all that hard headed. We figured out that's how it worked after the first couple dev responses, just be patient with these few who probably didn't read the entire thread. Wooooo-Saaaaaaaaaaaaa good game
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.31 18:34:00 - [95] Originally by: Merdaneth Actually, under my national law, if you didn't suspect and had no real reason to suspect certain goods were stolen, you don't have to give it back to original victim. This is done precisely because it would be unfair to the unknowing and innocent buyer who has done his research to have the goods taken away from him when some other person comes up to claim it. However, getting something 'for free' from 'a friend' puts a lot of responsibility on the buyer to properly research the legality of transferred goods. On the other hand, paying normal price to a well known business would put little to no responsibility on the buyer to research it's origin. I am curious, what nation?
Loyal Servant Caldari Viper Intel Squad Pure.	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:00:00 - [96] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Merdaneth Actually, under my national law, if you didn't suspect and had no real reason to suspect certain goods were stolen, you don't have to give it back to original victim. This is done precisely because it would be unfair to the unknowing and innocent buyer who has done his research to have the goods taken away from him when some other person comes up to claim it. However, getting something 'for free' from 'a friend' puts a lot of responsibility on the buyer to properly research the legality of transferred goods. On the other hand, paying normal price to a well known business would put little to no responsibility on the buyer to research it's origin. I am curious, what nation? Friggin guy bought a character that was used to launder isk, or used the il-gotten isk. I would CRAP MYSELF if this guy even considered calling an attorney over an eve account that he got for -0-, nothing, nadda, zilch. Move on.
Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:07:00 - [97] Edited by: Dulcinea Toboso on 31/10/2007 19:07:28 Originally by: Shanur I don't see how the OP got punished. He received no formal warning, nor a ban. All that happened was that the ISK that was on his character was removed. That would have happened anyway because dirty ISK does not belong in the game's economy. That the OP was innocent of buying ISK would and should not prevent that. All it should prevent is further repercussions to the account or the character. Even if the character was clean, the ISK was dirty. That is why it was removed. And why is transfering 45M from an alt such a big concern? Especially from a player with 4b worth of assets? Is it that hard to accept that 45M was the actual price of aquiring that character? You make it sound like the character's wealth was the only thing of value on it, rather than it's skills. I think many ofyou are missing out on the biggest implication of their policy because the amounts are relatively small. Follow my logic. If the person bought say 5 billion isk, used it all up, and then gave his character away, CCP's policy is that the person who got the character will pay for the entire amount of the infraction. That means, simply, that the person receiving the character, who did nothing wrong, is going to be straddled with the entire 5 billion isk penalty. Now, I ask you, is that reasonable? Does that sound like a valid policy? A better policy is to look at the character's wallet at the time of the transaction and confiscate the isk that was left. Straddling an innocent person with a huge negative wallet doesn't accomplish anything more than ****ing them off and possibly canceling their account(s).
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:11:00 - [98] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Merdaneth Actually, under my national law, if you didn't suspect and had no real reason to suspect certain goods were stolen, you don't have to give it back to original victim. This is done precisely because it would be unfair to the unknowing and innocent buyer who has done his research to have the goods taken away from him when some other person comes up to claim it. However, getting something 'for free' from 'a friend' puts a lot of responsibility on the buyer to properly research the legality of transferred goods. On the other hand, paying normal price to a well known business would put little to no responsibility on the buyer to research it's origin. I am curious, what nation? It works very similarly in the UK. If you're ever at all uncertain about the provenance of secondhand goods be sure to get a receipt and keep hold of it. ----- Visible Implants - good for so many occasions
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:16:00 - [99] wrangler... I hope yuou read this. Why not give the person a grace period? take the isk down to 0 isk and give the player, (if there is good reason like here) to get you, CCP the isk. Thus they pay it all back, and they aren't in the hole. CCP is happy, the player is happy. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...
Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:17:00 - [100] Originally by: Druadan Originally by: CCP Wrangler One question I would like an answer to, is how does CCP determine whether a character was paid for, or given? -Dru CCP asked me. Simple as that. They asked me if I had purchased the character or had gotten it some other way. I answered like I always do, honestly. I should write them back and say, hey, I was wrong, I did buy the character, and then all would be returned. Again, I see that as total equine excrements.

Moraguth Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:18:00 - [101] Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso Edited by: Dulcinea Toboso on 31/10/2007 19:07:28 Originally by: Shanur I don't see how the OP got punished. He received no formal warning, nor a ban. All that happened was that the ISK that was on his character was removed. That would have happened anyway because dirty ISK does not belong in the game's economy. That the OP was innocent of buying ISK would and should not prevent that. All it should prevent is further repercussions to the account or the character. Even if the character was clean, the ISK was dirty. That is why it was removed. And why is transfering 45M from an alt such a big concern? Especially from a player with 4b worth of assets? Is it that hard to accept that 45M was the actual price of aquiring that character? You make it sound like the character's wealth was the only thing of value on it, rather than it's skills. I think many ofyou are missing out on the biggest implication of their policy because the amounts are relatively small. Follow my logic. If the person bought say 5 billion isk, used it all up, and then gave his character away, CCP's policy is that the person who got the character will pay for the entire amount of the infraction. That means, simply, that the person receiving the character, who did nothing wrong, is going to be straddled with the entire 5 billion isk penalty. Now, I ask you, is that reasonable? Does that sound like a valid policy? A better policy is to look at the character's wallet at the time of the transaction and confiscate the isk that was left. Straddling an innocent person with a huge negative wallet doesn't accomplish anything more than ****ing them off and possibly canceling their account(s). In your example, the person who got the character for free has lost nothing though. He didn't pay any cash or isk for the character. If he paid the character transfer fee... well, that's why CCP has guidlines on how this stuff is to be handled. That way, if something dubious like this does happen, the character is transferred back, and the innocent person has lost nothing. The OP has LOST NOTHING except the transfer fee. He should get that back from his "friend" who sold him the bs character to begin with. CCP can only protect you from yourself so much. good game

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:21:00 - [102] Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso CCP asked me. Simple as that. They asked me if I had purchased the character or had gotten it some other way. I answered like I always do, honestly. I should write them back and say, hey, I was wrong, I did buy the character, and then all would be returned. Again, I see that as total equine excrements. The ISK wouldn't be returned to the character, you'd just get the character transfer reversed. You wouldn't get any ISK back from the transfer either since you didn't pay any ISK for the character. Basically, the way it is now you've got a character, even though it has minus balance in the wallet. If the transfer was reversed you wouldn't have that either. Wrangler Community Manager EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang "The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:29:00 - [103] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Originally by: Sorja A character should not be put in debth IMHO. If ISK was sold or whatnot, take it back, fine. But don't put the character to minus millions ISK, it just doesn't make any sense. Don't forget this is a game and people want to have fun, everything else is rubbish IMHO. Well, if you have nothing, you steal 100 million, spend 50 million and then get caught you'll still have to give 100 million back. This is not a correct picture of what happened. Nor are the various statements of buyer beware also seeing the complete picture. The analogy is this: A car is stolen and a fake VIN placed on it done well enough to fool some unknowing buyer. The authorities find the car a year later and not only take the car away from the buyer, but they also dip into his personal bank account and take away some quantity of money to make up for what the car was worth a year ago. CCP not only took the character's money that it came with, but they dipped into my own personal account as well. That CANNOT be right!
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:33:00 - [104] A thought occurs. If the original player had other characters and had transferred isk to them, would ccp have penalised them or only the person he transferred the original isk-buyer character to? ----- Visible Implants - good for so many occasions
Pur3Bl00D	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:41:00 - [105] I recently, sadly, quited the MMO i was playing and really loved for 1.5 years due to the "cheating" factor of gold farming - RMT (real money transfer) and botting, i want to state a couple of things regarding the issue of cheating. You guys are really really missing the big picture about how BAD RMT & botting can DESTROY an MMO, especially a competitive "sandbox" style MMO like this one. If u can cheat your way back to your previous status as a corporation in this game after you lose a big battle, then the very essence of this game is lost. Over-simplifying by saying "all want to do is have fun" and other BS is a bit imature imo. CCP in my view have gone too far to tackle this issue by loosening the strings, GTC for ISK, character-transfers. Especially GTC for ISK is a very smart move imo, and i really cannot get why should someone buy from "other sources" when he can get the same thing from another normal player who dedicated his SP to being a "money-maker". And if any of you thing it through the sad REALITY is that they lose money by this, cause the other way is having 1/3 of the accounts being "gold-farmers", 1/3 buying gold from the farmers and 1/3 being the "losers" who cant/wont quit the game and keep trying to play "legit" sad "losers" that cant/wont quit the game. And DO believe me that this IS happening in many MMO'S around. Do you want this to happen in EVE-online in a year from now? Let alone the fact that the guy buying the GTC will play for free for some time. +1 to CPP dev's on this issue. This topic was the deciding factor for me to start playing this game normally (still on trial) and their smart/brave stance on this issue. Should they had given up to this guy i wouldn't have come to this game. Thats how it started in my MMO, after a couple of years the GM'S would turn a blind eye to many issues cause they "too pay a mothly fee". P.S sorry for long post P.S. If i sound too serious is because english is not my native language and i couldn't find more casual words.
Turin Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:44:00 - [106] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 31/10/2007 13:41:03 I'm not here to argue my opinion against yours. Bought ISK is reversed, period. Either we always do that, or we never. There are no fringe cases. You want us to stop fighting against ISK sellers you're welcome to that opinion. We don't share it. When someone buys ISK the victim is the entire eve population. That's the crime here: ISK was bought, a characters value was unfairly adjusted, we fixed it. The crime which victimized the OP was that he bought a bad product. He also did so outside the protocols put in place by us so there's no appealing to us as it's outside our scope. If you buy something in international waters, outside any trading regulations, you have no trading regulations to cite broken if need be.. like when it turns out you bought a forgery. You maintain that we're being unfair to the OP by following the rules and regulations we set in place and is common knowledge to everyone. I maintain that we'd be unfair to everyone else if we didn't. Our opinions on just actions are obviously based on mighty different principles so there's no arguing this. Fact of the matter is that if we see ISK being bought we reverse the transaction for the sake of EVE. EOF. this whole thing is absolute crap anyways. If you guys were REALLY interested in stopping ISK sales, you would close the loop holes that allow people to buy Game time Cards for cash and sell them for isk. You should re-write the policy to state "No one but CCP will be allowed to sell isk for cash, through approved methods. At no time shall anyone else but CCP break these rules." _________________________________
Angel DeMorphis	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:46:00 - [107] Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso CCP not only took the character's money that it came with, but they dipped into my own personal account as well. That CANNOT be right! Hmm... Going back on your story? You said they took the ISK from the free character that was given to you, not your own personal account... If you're referring to the amount you spent on the character transfer, well, that amount was supposed to be paid by the "seller", or giver in this case. You did that outside of CCP's rules governing such things, so there's nothing, really, that you can complain to them about. So, from what you've told us, and yes I read the whole thread, you were given a character, gave money to the giver to pay for the character transfer, this being outside of CCP's rules governing such transactions. Character had X amount of money on it (was it 360 Mil or so?). You logged in some unspecified amount of time later to find it had -40 Mil ISK, taken from the GM as reversing ISK buying. You then proceeded to post on the forums complaining about how CCP let you keep said character and assets, and only reversed the ISK buying. You paid the seller outside of character selling rules, so for all intents and purposes (as far as CCP and the Eve community can be concerned) the character was given to you for free. Any money you gave to the corp mate to cover the character transfer fee cannot be considered as it was not governed by character selling rules. The net effect of this transaction is you got a free character with -40 Mil instead of 360 Mil that you thought. There is nothing left, then, to complain about. The only person left to be upset at is the corp mate who scammed you out of the, what is it, 20 or 40 dollars to transfer the character that had a negative balanced associated with it. Prosecuting that corp mate to get your money back is outside the jurisdiction of CCP.
Frygok Minmatar Mean Anglo-Danes	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:50:00 - [108] Question: CCP and others are stating that OP got the character for free, and therefore didn't lose anything on it. However, didn't OP pay 20 euro for the transferring the character to another account?
Abrazzar	Posted - 2007.10.31 20:14:00 - [109] Originally by: Frygok Question: CCP and others are stating that OP got the character for free, and therefore didn't lose anything on it. However, didn't OP pay 20 euro for the transferring the character to another account? He paid the transfer fee on his own risk. Rule is that the player giving the character away is to pay the fee. This rule is set to keep people from loosing money if the character trade was fraudulent. He paid the fee, he risked it, he lost it, it's HIS responsibility. You can't make CCP responsible for your loss when you're not following the correct procedures.
Anglo Minmatar Astral Mexicans	Posted - 2007.10.31 20:22:00 - [110] im happy to see ccp actually does something towards isk sellers. and shame on the op for knowing one who sells isk... no pitty from me... the caracter should be banned for good thou... killed even...

Loyal Servant Caldari Viper Intel Squad Pure.	Posted - 2007.10.31 20:32:00 - [111] Originally by: Anglo im happy to see ccp actually does something towards isk sellers. and shame on the op for knowing one who sells isk... no pitty from me... the caracter should be banned for good thou... killed even... It is very rare they do anything. I find new farmers and isk sellers daily, reporting them has gotten me 3 or 4 banned in 2 years of trying. EPIC FAIL. Isk farmers are here to stay.
Zikka The Establishment	Posted - 2007.10.31 20:45:00 - [112] The only thing that _may_ be reasonable to ask from CCP here is that they give you back any Isk you sent to the character and then reverse the character transfer. I don't know if that would happen if they reversed the character sale? At the end of the day you bought damaged goods, the person you should be having a go at is the 'friend' who gave you a dodgy character, not CCP for enforcing the rules.
sheis	Posted - 2007.10.31 21:16:00 - [113] CCP is taking a stand on isk buying. Its totally unfair to allow people to purchase in game advantages. It ruins the games mechanics. UNLESS ccp is profiting from isk selling then its ok.
KeyserSoze	Posted - 2007.10.31 22:01:00 - [114] what about the person who spent 7 months gtc on an account for 1 char that he bought, would that get refunded since at the end of it, he gets nothing but an active account with no characters.
Turin Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.31 22:15:00 - [115] Once again. CCP's stance on "isk buying" is garbage. Until they stop allowing GTC's to be sold for isk, them busting ISK sellers is like the pot calling the kettle black. "Dont buy isk unless you buy it from us!!!" should be their motto. What a useless garbage policy they have in place. I would love to see them close the loopholes that continue to allow isk to be purchased for cash "legally" because its nothing but a biased system and two faced policy. Shame on CCP for allowing it to exsist. But hey, money talks, BS walks right? CCP, start obeying your own rules. then maybe people will take you seriously. Until then, may the fleas of 1000 dogs rest in your genitals. I think its a shame what you did to this poor guy, considering you let everyone else and their mother buy isk for cash through your own system. But as long as your making money, hey, turn the blind eye. But as soon as someone else might make a tad of profit from it. OMGZ!!! MUST STOP AT ALL COSTS!!!! OMGZ!!!! _________________________________
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.10.31 22:36:00 - [116] Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso Originally by: CCP Wrangler Originally by: Sorja A character should not be put in debth IMHO. If ISK was sold or whatnot, take it back, fine. But don't put the character to minus millions ISK, it just doesn't make any sense. Don't forget this is a game and people want to have fun, everything else is rubbish IMHO. Well, if you have nothing, you steal 100 million, spend 50 million and then get caught you'll still have to give 100 million back. This is not a correct picture of what happened. Nor are the various statements of buyer beware also seeing the complete picture. The analogy is this: A car is stolen and a fake VIN placed on it done well enough to fool some unknowing buyer. The authorities find the car a year later and not only take the car away from the buyer, but they also dip into his personal bank account and take away some quantity of money to make up for what the car was worth a year ago. CCP not only took the character's money that it came with, but they dipped into my own personal account as well. That CANNOT be right! Sorry, all they did was take the car. You have gained a character that had bought 350 mill isk. 350 mill isk was taken from you new character. Nothing else than the illigal isk. They have NOT dipped into you personal account? How can you even conclude that? If they had, they should have taken 350.01 isk, but they didn't. They only took the 350 million isk the previous owner had aquired illigaly. No matter how you turn it, CCP did the right thing and removed the illigal isk. Your corp "mate" did the bad thing if 1) buying isk, 2) giving you the hot moist turd that is the character. Go yell at him instead, that MIGHT get you somewhere.
Bamarrian	Posted - 2007.10.31 22:49:00 - [117] Well, just fresh from people who have flamed you. SOME People really do warship CCP, everything CCP tell these people something is bad (i.e. farmers, isk sellers) these people believes it without doubt them.(these people do have some use-make our kill boards look good and be the victims in some of the great vids) well GTC is more expensive than ISK from the "illegal way", and without farmers you will need to sell more GTC to buy those "faction" stuff and ISK farmers are not Micro users, most Micro users i see are PLAYers BUT all in all, EVE is a CCP game, they own the game, they can close it if they feel like it some day
Neena Valdi Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.31 23:05:00 - [118] Originally by: DirtyHarry If the character was legally transfered to the new owner, and the previous owner had bought isk off farmers then there is no way the new owner should be punished, I know CCP have ** poor customer service, but thats just ridiculous. How can CCP know if character wasn't transfered to another account of the same** person? Punishing the character that was involved is the only technically doable method, tbh. P.S. It's already way too soft punishment for buying the ISK's...

GM Nova Game Masters	Posted - 2007.10.31 23:09:00 - [119] Originally by: THCS I would love to know what would happen in this case: person buys 1 billion isk, person buys ships modules ect ect has fun lose's it all and decides to quit game 2 weeks later, before he quits on that account, he sells the account using ccp guidelines with 0 isk and some scattered assets. New person buys account using CCP guidelines and continues using character, trains character and has general fun, 7 months down the line GM's investigating some isk farming ring come accross details of the 1 billion isk transaction and then -1 billion isk from the char leaving him in negatives. Now new owner claims no prior knowledge and starts petition ect. Now from whats been stated so far the origonal transaction would be reversed and the character would go back to the origonal account ect, now what I would be interested in knowing is the person who had purchased that char and trained it ect be eligble for a full 7 month refund on the account considering they have lost 7 months of gametime on that character because of the reversal? If they would not be eligble then again they would be punished by CCP for a crime they did not commit or would have no knowledge of the origonal seller commiting. This is easy. If the person sells the account, he is in breach of the EULA. If the person sells the character for ISK then it's a different matter. Let's say that seven months down the line the account get set to the negative and the current owner claims no knowledge of the ISK purchases. What we do, in this case is follow the money. We take 1 billion ISK from the character who received the ISK for the character purchace, and give it to the new owner of the character, thus restoring the balance. I hope this answers your question.

Neena Valdi Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.31 23:17:00 - [120] Originally by: Turin Once again. CCP's stance on "isk buying" is garbage. Until they stop allowing GTC's to be sold for isk, them busting ISK sellers is like the pot calling the kettle black. If CCP close the GTC for ISK sales it will only make the situation worse. I mean MUCH worse than it is now. The amount of 'chinese farmers' will skyrock and become totally uncontrollable. Unlike many other MMORPGs EVE as player-driven game have almost everything depended on ISK, so the illegal organized ISK sellers will be able to make enourmous profit.

Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.31 23:58:00 - [121] Sorry original post but you're talking Bollucks! You took a RISK 'buying' a character and paying the transfer fee as all people who buy CCP's intellectual property do... The fact that you paid zero ISK, but the real money transfer fee (which is against the normal CCP approved procedure where the seller pays for the transfer) means you've taken an even greater risk on that character. You friend's obviously been at fault buying ISK. That character has accordingly had its ISK corrected. If you'd have followed the correct procedure then you'd have a free character with a negative ISK, but still a value in skills trained. Your moans about CCP's scope for them not protecting/helping you when you've not followed their clear procedures are simply daft. No sympathy for you - go take it out on your 'friend' and not CCP who are protecting the rest of their paying customers from idiots like your friend (and by association - YOU). Congrats on 'exceeding 4 Billion ISK in assets' - you should get some perspective, stop whining about CCP and looking for sympathy about a few hundred mil deducted from a 'free' character, then consider how much ISK you've made if you were to resell that character. - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.11.01 00:28:00 - [122] Originally by: Angel DeMorphis Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso CCP not only took the character's money that it came with, but they dipped into my own personal account as well. That CANNOT be right! Hmm... Going back on your story? You said they took the ISK from the free character that was given to you, not your own personal account... They left the character with negative isk. Where do you think that isk will come from? It will come from MY efforts in the game to make isk. That's taking from me!
TirsaMalice	Posted - 2007.11.01 00:41:00 - [123] Edited by: TirsaMalice on 01/11/2007 00:41:44 Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso They left the character with negative isk. Where do you think that isk will come from? It will come from MY efforts in the game to make isk. That's taking from me! You could always choose not to transfer isk to this char or work off his balance. Then you would not be loosing anything.
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.11.01 00:42:00 - [124] Edited by: Ramblin Man on 01/11/2007 00:46:25 Since this thread seems to have turned into a wall of text, allow me to simplify. WAYS TO GET ** OVER BUYING/ACCEPTING SOMEONE ELSE'S CHARACTER Buying: You may, at any time, have ISK removed from a purchased character's account. Provided you still have the receipt, you may choose* to have CCP reverse the sale and refund the original character cost.* You will not* be reimbursed for any skill training you've done on that character.* Accepting: You may, at any time, have ISK removed from an accepted character's account. You have no recourse. You will be required to spend your own ISK to return the character to full functionality. So basically, 1) Every second you spend training a legally purchased character can be taken away from you. 2) Every ISK you store on an accepted character (or on a bought character that you would like to keep) can be taken away from you. COAD Special!1 1) Buy massive ISK with an industrial character 2) Purchase faction mods -- transfer to your main via jetcan 3) Use alt spy to arrange for bankrupt character to be transferred to a wealthy hostile alliance's member outside of the official method 4) Laugh for fun as CCP eventually tracks down the ISK sale and seizes the member's personal ISK off that character! (lolololol) Alternatively, - Have CCP ransom a hypothetically crucial cyno alt/capital ship pilot at a random time! (more lololololol) Welcome to the dark side old friend. .Shar Where we hate people through words.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.11.01 00:49:00 - [125] Originally by: Ramblin Man Edited by: Ramblin Man on 01/11/2007 00:47:17 Since this thread seems to have turned into a wall of text, allow me to simplify. WAYS TO GET ** OVER BUYING/ACCEPTING SOMEONE ELSE'S CHARACTER Buying: You may, at any time, have ISK removed from a purchased character's account. Provided you still have the receipt, you may choose* to have CCP reverse the sale, take the character, and refund the original character cost.* You will not* be reimbursed for any skill training you've done on that character.* Accepting: You may, at any time, have ISK removed from an accepted character's account. You have no recourse. You will be required to spend your own ISK to return the character to full functionality. So basically, 1) Every second you spend training a legally purchased character can be taken away from you. 2) Every ISK you store on an accepted character (or on a bought character that you would like to keep) can be taken away from you. COAD Special!1 1) Buy massive ISK with an industrial character 2) Purchase faction mods -- transfer to your main via jetcan 3) Use alt spy to arrange for bankrupt character to be transferred to a wealthy hostile alliance's member outside of the official method 4) Laugh for fun as CCP eventually tracks down the ISK sale and seizes the member's personal ISK off that character! (lolololol) Alternatively, - Have CCP ransom a hypothetically crucial cyno alt/capital ship pilot at a random time! (more lololololol) If this is correct - its basically fecking bent SKUNK
Morn Judith Caldari Incognito Inc	Posted - 2007.11.01 01:18:00 - [126] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Sorry original post but you're talking Bollucks! You took a RISK 'buying' a character and paying the transfer fee as all people who buy CCP's intellectual property do... The fact that you paid zero ISK, but the real money transfer fee (which is against the normal CCP approved procedure where the seller pays for the transfer) means you've taken an even greater risk on that character. You friend's obviously been at fault buying ISK. That character has accordingly had its ISK corrected. If you'd have followed the correct procedure then you'd have a free character with a negative ISK, but still a value in skills trained. Your moans about CCP's scope for them not protecting/helping you when you've not followed their clear procedures are simply daft. No sympathy for you - go take it out on your 'friend' and not CCP who are protecting the rest of their paying customers from idiots like your friend (and by association - YOU). Congrats on 'exceeding 4 Billion ISK in assets' - you should get some perspective, stop whining about CCP and looking for sympathy about a few hundred mil deducted from a 'free' character, then consider how much ISK you've made if you were to resell that character. Wow, in 5 pages this is the only post that I agree with. What in God's name is so hard to understand about this situation? The CCP folk in this thread have stated very clearly what you did wrong, what your friend did wrong, and how they were correct in rectifying the situation. And you have 4 billion isk in assets? I have that same amount. 41 million isk is NOTHING when you have that amount. I spend that much on ammo every week. Get over it. Kick your friend's ass, make you new character's wallet even, and sell the new character via the PROPER system on the forums. Bam! You have a lot more money, and you're not stuck with a character that has caused drama in your life! All you players that want a double standard for this isk selling thing need to get a life. CCP is a business, they are protecting their assets. Get over it, and play the game. Or just do me a favor and leave (after tranfering me you isk, that is. Unless you bought it somewhere ). Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 01:46:00 - [127] Morn Judith... I salute your common sense! o7 I am also...now...rather drunk so would like to derail this thread as it was annoying anyway...So... What about them Drone Nerfs?!?! Terrible stuff eh?!?! - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Krall Junior	Posted - 2007.11.01 02:01:00 - [128] Originally by: CCP Prism X Ofcourse not. If I were to steal AMDs newest CPU before they launched it, put it in my desktop at home and then sell that desktop computer to you.. you think IBM would lose their legal claim on the CPU? It's still stolen property and will be confiscated from you were they to discover you possessed it, no? We're reclaiming illegaly obtained goods, not bombing anyone. The OP wasn't penalized, the character he bought was taken down a peg to be equal with others i.e. his networth was put to where it should be. It sucks to buy stolen goods without knowing it and then have to deal with the authority knocking on your door, but you can't state the authority is being unfair. It would be unfair against the original victim if you were allowed to keep the goods. Justice is when given rules govern everybody regardless of their situation, anything else is favouritism. Yep indeed AMD would loose their legal claim. It is indeed stolen property, however it was bought in good faith. If I - as a buyer - had no knowledge or was in no way able to know that the chip was stolen then it is my property. Only thing AMD would be able to do is ask me if I want to give/ sell them the chip back. Yep you are indeed reclaiming illegal obtained goods but - how are you so certain the victim knew he had a character with bought isk - you are acting as a vigilante, taking the right to act without proof and like stated before taking awaey something that has been obtained legally if the victim was unware of previous illegal acts - if you see yourself as the authority, then you can confiscate the items as evidence but still the "unaware" victim remains the owner. nicking the isk away makes ccp guiltu of thievery even though the origin of the action was illegal aswell
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.01 02:12:00 - [129] Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso Originally by: Angel DeMorphis Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso CCP not only took the character's money that it came with, but they dipped into my own personal account as well. That CANNOT be right! Hmm... Going back on your story? You said they took the ISK from the free character that was given to you, not your own personal account... They left the character with negative isk. Where do you think that isk will come from? It will come from MY efforts in the game to make isk. That's taking from me! No. This is basically what happened. The character you got for free had a debt, this is like being given a house with a mortagage on it. Now this was not disclosed to you obviously, so you didn't know you had gotten a character/house that was in debt. Now you know. Just because the house/character was transferred to a new owner does NOT mean the debt is magically forgiven! CCP should have given you the option of refunding your transfer fee, and returning the character to the original account. Alternatively, you could pay the debt on the character/house and keep it. signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Cosmo Raata Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.01 02:48:00 - [130] Dulcinea Toboso, How much are you in the hole? I am willing to donate the isk to you to be at zero isk if you're still in debt. As long as this is ok with Wrangler and i'm not violating some rule that I wouldn't know about. Evemail me with 'Dulcinea Toboso' the name of the character to transfer the isk to. Don't Ban me for my Love of Amarr!

Rshu Jhorlk	Posted - 2007.11.01 03:27:00 - [131] Originally by: Cosmo Raata Dulcinea Toboso, How much are you in the hole? I am willing to donate the isk to you to be at zero isk if you're still in debt. As long as this is ok with Wrangler and i'm not violating some rule that I wouldn't know about. Evemail me with 'Dulcinea Toboso' the name of the character to transfer the isk to. laughs He's already had at least five players in the corp offer him the ISK before he posted this.
Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.01 03:51:00 - [132] Originally by: Ramblin Man Since this thread seems to have turned into a wall of text, allow me to simplify. "/signed" Originally by: CCP Wrangler The ISK wouldn't be returned to the character, you'd just get the character transfer reversed. You wouldn't get any ISK back from the transfer either since you didn't pay any ISK for the character. Basically, the way it is now you've got a character, even though it has minus balance in the wallet. If the transfer was reversed you wouldn't have that either. Exactly. So even if the OP was "protected" by the method you've espoused to customers, if he (rightly) may want his ISK back for what he later discovers is a "defective product" (which you even facilitated the delivery of) then he or she would have to sacrifice any investment of training time which he or she has paid for with real money to you, to do it. All you've actually done for the character buyer is walk in later and assign a new (and frankly obligatory) price to the character transfer. Isn't that right? So, CCP will still be able to walk away with their "cut" because a player had an "unfair advantage" that they weren't even aware of to begin with and CCP didn't get around to discovering until well after the "crime" was committed and both original perpetrators (The ISK seller and the person who first owned the character and bought the ISK) can have already fled the jurisdiction you exert yourselves upon. ... I guess it is sort of a good thing there are so many ISK seller spammers in the game, so anyone caught out like this can easily pull up those websites and run a currency conversion to work out which way you're screwing them the softer, ISK spent on a character or dollars spent training it.
Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.01 04:14:00 - [133] Edited by: Joss Sparq on 01/11/2007 04:15:10 Edited by: Joss Sparq on 01/11/2007 04:14:21 Originally by: GM Nova We take 1 billion ISK from the character who received the ISK for the character purchace, and give it to the new owner of the character, thus restoring the balance. That make sense, sure. But what happens when the character who received the ISK for the sale no longer exists, nor in fact does the account it was maintained on? Originally by: GM Nova I would really want to help him out since the OP is as far as we know not guilty of anything, but our policies are there for a reason. I think this is is pretty damning stuff. You admit that as far as you know the OP has not done anything malign ... But they'll still get punished for something they had no involvement in. Originally by: GM Nova If we would start to make exceptions, we would have to apply them to everyone and the sky would come crashing down. If you cannot protect those you are charged to serve when acting as an adjudicator and instead maintain the use of rules which are admittedly unfair then you don't apply a justice system here, just a system.
Cipher7 VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 04:39:00 - [134] Since the OP received the character for free, I dont see what claim he has. If you bought the char for 1 isk, they would return your 1 isk. You paid the char transfer fee, and received a functional char. Only problem is, you can't really DO anything if your char is in the red. I think in cases like this, the system should allow people with negative wallets to amass 10 million isk, anything above that should be taken by the system to pay off the debt. Why 10 million isk? So ppl can still function and pay back the debt. Without a means to hold isk, you can't trade, can't do missions with collateral, can't buy equipment, can't do pretty much anything, which means you have no way to pay back the debt except using a second char.
sheis	Posted - 2007.11.01 04:55:00 - [135] Originally by: Neena Valdi Originally by: Turin Once again. CCP's stance on "isk buying" is garbage. Until they stop allowing GTC's to be sold for isk, them busting ISK sellers is like the pot calling the kettle black. If CCP close the GTC for ISK sales it will only make the situation worse. I mean MUCH worse than it is now. The amount of 'chinese farmers' will skyrock and become totally uncontrollable. Unlike many other MMORPGs EVE as player-driven game have almost everything depended on ISK, so the illegal organized ISK sellers will be able to make enourmous profit. WRONG allowing people to spend in game currency for game time ALLOWS FARMERS TO BE 100% SELF SUFFICIENT. They dont even have to go out of pocket to continue to farm to later sell isk on ebay. Cancel GTC buying and the swollen numbers of farmers would cant function without FREE game time will dissolve. Are you aware how many farmers are on 24/7? and how many people obviously buy isk?
Enteris Caldari The Empire Nation	Posted - 2007.11.01 05:12:00 - [136] I'm pretty sure farmers use mostly trial accounts to get minerals and rat in many systems in empire, Honestly slice at the GTC for isk market, AND stop trial accounts for at least a while (2 months) and see how things go.
Okane Guy	Posted - 2007.11.01 05:23:00 - [137] ISK FARMER GETS BURNED HAHA
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.11.01 05:32:00 - [138] Originally by: Okane Guy ISK FARMER GETS BURNED HAHA Alt doesn't read the thread Oh wait, that happens every day. Welcome to the dark side old friend. .Shar Where we hate people through words.
sheis	Posted - 2007.11.01 05:34:00 - [139] Originally by: Enteris I'm pretty sure farmers use mostly trial accounts to get minerals and rat in many systems in empire, Honestly slice at the GTC for isk market, AND stop trial accounts for at least a while (2 months) and see how things go. WTF would isk farmers do that instead of just spending in game isk for a full account? How long do you think it takes for an isk farmer to compensate for the cost of a char with a hulk or raven. And how much more efficient is it?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.01 05:40:00 - [140] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Originally by: Sorja A character should not be put in debth IMHO. If ISK was sold or whatnot, take it back, fine. But don't put the character to minus millions ISK, it just doesn't make any sense. Don't forget this is a game and people want to have fun, everything else is rubbish IMHO. Well, if you have nothing, you steal 100 million, spend 50 million and then get caught you'll still have to give 100 million back. The problem, Wrangler, is that after 4 years in this game you still havent removed the mechanisms by which isk farmers are allowed to flourish. For four years we have had static level 4 courier missions and isk farmers running them 24/7. Even where agony lives we have reported characters that haul 24 hours a day with the same char. Nothing has happened to those players. Down in Misaba, the haulers run constantly. Macro miners still infest the high sec regions of space and even the low sec regions. With the instant intel of Local chat, Macro miners and ratters can operate in 0.0 with impunity, merely fitting a cloak and warping off whenever something comes in local. CCP has castrated the ability of the player base to handle the problem and they haven't handled the problem themselves and that is the reason this unfortunate player got caught in the crossfire of flying fish. Instead of spending time and effort tracking down hapless people who supposedly bough isk 6 months ago, you should be devoting those resources to repairing the problem. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!

Okane Guy	Posted - 2007.11.01 05:41:00 - [141] Originally by: Rells Originally by: CCP Wrangler Originally by: Sorja A character should not be put in debth IMHO. If ISK was sold or whatnot, take it back, fine. But don't put the character to minus millions ISK, it just doesn't make any sense. Don't forget this is a game and people want to have fun, everything else is rubbish IMHO. Well, if you have nothing, you steal 100 million, spend 50 million and then get caught you'll still have to give 100 million back. The problem, Wrangler, is that after 4 years in this game you still havent removed the mechanisms by which isk farmers are allowed to flourish. For four years we have had static level 4 courier missions and isk farmers running them 24/7. Even where agony lives we have reported characters that haul 24 hours a day with the same char. Nothing has happened to those players. Down in Misaba, the haulers run constantly. Macro miners still infest the high sec regions of space and even the low sec regions. With the instant intel of Local chat, Macro miners and ratters can operate in 0.0 with impunity, merely fitting a cloak and warping off whenever something comes in local. CCP has castrated the ability of the player base to handle the problem and they haven't handled the problem themselves and that is the reason this unfortunate player got caught in the crossfire of flying fish. Instead of spending time and effort tracking down hapless people who supposedly bough isk 6 months ago, you should be devoting those resources to repairing the problem. post with your main!
Delilah Blackheart Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.01 05:49:00 - [142] Originally by: Okane Guy post with your main! You first!
Dez Erichs Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.01 06:29:00 - [143] Edited by: Dez Erichs on 01/11/2007 06:31:02 After hearing about this incident, I have outlined the problem and made suggestions in a post in the Features and Ideas Discussion forum. Forgive me for cross-posting, but I believe it is relevant to the situation. You may find my post here. After reading this thread, I am not happy with the responses from CCP's officials. A problem has been identified, and they are content to continue on with a broken character exchange system, even though '*****s' like these appear from time to time. I can understand that RMT / isk sellers are a hot topic in Eve, and cause no end of grief for CCP's employees. A lot of the problem may be rectified through a revision of the character exchange system. If you feel that the character exchange system is broken, or have other suggestions, please post in my thread, so this problem can get the attention it deserves. EDIT: I keep forgetting that the forums censors a certain word that may refer to part of the human anatomy. I think that this word is appropriate for the PG-13 nature of Eve and does not need to be censored. --- PvP Training: www.agony-unleashed.com, "Veni, Vidi, Caedi"
Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.01 06:34:00 - [144] Just another '*****' in the system I suppose.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.11.01 06:43:00 - [145] Originally by: Okane Guy post with your main! You're somewhat of an idiot, aren't you?
Neena Valdi Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.01 09:04:00 - [146] Originally by: Rshu Jhorlk Originally by: Cosmo Raata Dulcinea Toboso, How much are you in the hole? I am willing to donate the isk to you to be at zero isk if you're still in debt. As long as this is ok with Wrangler and i'm not violating some rule that I wouldn't know about. Evemail me with 'Dulcinea Toboso' the name of the character to transfer the isk to. laughs He's already had at least five players in the corp offer him the ISK before he posted this. smart guy is making money now...
Neena Valdi Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.01 09:06:00 - [147] Originally by: Rells The problem, Wrangler, is that after 4 years in this game you still havent removed the mechanisms by which isk farmers are allowed to flourish. For four years we have had static level 4 courier missions and isk farmers running them 24/7. Even where agony lives we have reported characters that haul 24 hours a day with the same char. Nothing has happened to those players. Down in Misaba, the haulers run constantly. Macro miners still infest the high sec regions of space and even the low sec regions. With the instant intel of Local chat, Macro miners and ratters can operate in 0.0 with impunity, merely fitting a cloak and warping off whenever something comes in local. CCP has castrated the ability of the player base to handle the problem and they haven't handled the problem themselves and that is the reason this unfortunate player got caught in the crossfire of flying fish. Instead of spending time and effort tracking down hapless people who supposedly bough isk 6 months ago, you should be devoting those resources to repairing the problem. Farming is not EULA violation. Buying ISK is...
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.11.01 09:11:00 - [148] To the people that donated isk to that dolt: Darwin frowns upon you.. :-/ Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.01 10:07:00 - [149] If CCP were to just start selling ISK, a thousand thousand farmers and ISK sellers would cry out in woe and go out of business. Presuming that CCP undercut them anyway.
Nasair	Posted - 2007.11.01 10:25:00 - [150] Originally by: Curzon Dax If CCP were to just start selling ISK, a thousand thousand farmers and ISK sellers would cry out in woe and go out of business. Presuming that CCP undercut them anyway. Error 404: Thought not found

Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.11.01 10:59:00 - [151] I'll say it again, if the negative wallet is the problem, jsut liquidate some assets and get going. It's still a free character, so what's the problem? Chances are, that battleship i the hangar was bought with the same bought ISK, so it's easy to sell the stuff back at little if any loss. And on a sidenote, people who think that "CCP is doing wrong", remember, you don't own anything regarding your character, i mean NOTHING. They could even reset all your skills if they wanted, and you'd have no "backing" to complain, even if you did. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.01 11:17:00 - [152] Originally by: Neena Valdi Farming is not EULA violation. Buying ISK is ... Clause 16 of the Terms of Service could be applied to that, though.
Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.01 11:26:00 - [153] Originally by: Sheriff Jones It's still a free character, so what's the problem? No, it isn't. CCP have come in and set a retroactive price tag on the character for the new owner, which has to be paid to return it to the previous level of functionality. This has been done due to the actions of the previous owner and is admittedly not the fault of the new owner. It has also exposed the glaring vulnerability of buyers in character transactions whether or not they follow the proscribed method.
Krychton Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.01 11:30:00 - [154] Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso Originally by: Barbaro55a I'm allready bored of this thread. I personaly think your not telling the whole truth. Yes CCP should send messages informing when they have removed funs but thats a seperate issue. You bought isk and went 40 mil in debt, a tiny ammount compared to your supposed wealth. You got cought, be a man and deal with it. You completely missed the point of the post. The toon that I transfered from a Corp mate had apparently bought isk, I did not. I had no idea that the toon had bought isk in its past. When CCP discovered that this toon had bought isk, they didn't bother to check that it had already been transfered to my account from another, they just took isk. I DIDN'T BUY ISK. Read the thread before you post. You committed no wrong, true. But the previous owner did, and just because the character switched owners doesn't negate the fact that the iskies where purchased through illegal means. What you had was "dirty money" or "dirty Iskies". That is the flaw in your argument. ---- \|Omerta Syndicate\|
Khes	Posted - 2007.11.01 12:00:00 - [155] Edited by: Khes on 01/11/2007 12:01:53 I can be a bit slow sometimes but I just don't see what is so unfair with this whole deal. You actually belive that If someone gives me money that is stolen it should be my right to keep it because it was not me that stole it???????
Tessai Lsha	Posted - 2007.11.01 12:31:00 - [156] When buying a character check who it received money from in the past two months. Check the profiles of people and see if any one of those is soma alty alt transfering round nice round numbers into your wallet (farmers sell 400, 500, 800, 1000 mil ISK but not something like 376 mil or 850 mil). If you see any suspicious transfers I suppose you can petition and ask them to check it out. Sadly the wallet history is logged only 2 months so if the char was used to buy ISK prior to that you're out of luck as there isn't a way for you to check for any suspicious transfers. Originally by: Ramblin Man ] 1) Buy massive ISK with an industrial character 2) Purchase faction mods -- transfer to your main via jetcan 3) Use alt spy to arrange for bankrupt character to be transferred to a wealthy hostile alliance's member outside of the official method 4) Laugh for fun as CCP eventually tracks down the ISK sale and seizes the member's personal ISK off that character! I also heard that all items in EVE can be traced so if you buy some faction mods and transfer them to your main they'll trace ya and possibly ban for being such a sneaky pain the the behind :P
Lord Saradomin Gallente Asshats and Alcoholics Minuit.	Posted - 2007.11.01 12:45:00 - [157] agggggggh people like you get right on my jubblys!!!! i think the question here is why aren't you perm banned?! there should be no account purchasing/isk buying/timecard nonsense! you say you play the game for fun? then play it and build up you OWN stuff!! ****************************************** In the beginning the Universe was created, This made a lot of people angry, and has been widely regarded as a bad idea.
Tessai Lsha	Posted - 2007.11.01 12:47:00 - [158] Originally by: sheis Originally by: Neena Valdi Originally by: Turin Once again. CCP's stance on "isk buying" is garbage. Until they stop allowing GTC's to be sold for isk, them busting ISK sellers is like the pot calling the kettle black. If CCP close the GTC for ISK sales it will only make the situation worse. I mean MUCH worse than it is now. The amount of 'chinese farmers' will skyrock and become totally uncontrollable. Unlike many other MMORPGs EVE as player-driven game have almost everything depended on ISK, so the illegal organized ISK sellers will be able to make enourmous profit. WRONG allowing people to spend in game currency for game time ALLOWS FARMERS TO BE 100% SELF SUFFICIENT. They dont even have to go out of pocket to continue to farm to later sell isk on ebay. Cancel GTC buying and the swollen numbers of farmers would cant function without FREE game time will dissolve. Are you aware how many farmers are on 24/7? and how many people obviously buy isk? Game only costs $10-15 per month. So a farmer would pay this amount extra for the game per account that he owns. Right now they sell 1b for $55 so which means that $15 is 270 mil in ISK that he'll have to sell per month. A single farmer account would have no trouble generating this money. Assuming they make something like 10 mil per hour with one account this is less than 3 days for a farmer to make enough ISK to sell to get $15. Meanwhile demand for ISK will surge. According to some studies I've seen one out of every 5 people has bought virtual currency and EVE is one of those games where this statistic is even higher, possibly 1 in 4 people has bought ISK and many are frequent buyers. It is very obvious that without the GTCs farmers would make much more money (and CCP will make much less).
Neena Valdi Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.01 13:01:00 - [159] Originally by: Joss Sparq Originally by: Neena Valdi Farming is not EULA violation. Buying ISK is ... Clause 16 of the Terms of Service could be applied to that, though. No, it can't.
Neena Valdi Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.01 13:05:00 - [160] Originally by: Tessai Lsha Game only costs $10-15 per month. So a farmer would pay this amount extra for the game per account that he owns. Right now they sell 1b for $55 so which means that $15 is 270 mil in ISK that he'll have to sell per month. A single farmer account would have no trouble generating this money. Assuming they make something like 10 mil per hour with one account this is less than 3 days for a farmer to make enough ISK to sell to get $15. Meanwhile demand for ISK will surge. According to some studies I've seen one out of every 5 people has bought virtual currency and EVE is one of those games where this statistic is even higher, possibly 1 in 4 people has bought ISK and many are frequent buyers. It is very obvious that without the GTCs farmers would make much more money (and CCP will make much less). Where your statistic comes from?

Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.11.01 13:14:00 - [161] But if CCP make it so that traded characters are immune from ISK buying punishments, then the direct and instant consequence for everybody else becomes very massive, very quickly, as every isk farmer and trader suddenly gets to duplicate isk for character transfer fee only. probably. -- Awwwww Diddums! Did I wardec your highsec alt recently or something?
Rshu Jhorlk	Posted - 2007.11.01 13:50:00 - [162] Originally by: Neena Valdi Originally by: Rshu Jhorlk Originally by: Cosmo Raata Dulcinea Toboso, How much are you in the hole? I am willing to donate the isk to you to be at zero isk if you're still in debt. As long as this is ok with Wrangler and i'm not violating some rule that I wouldn't know about. Evemail me with 'Dulcinea Toboso' the name of the character to transfer the isk to. laughs He's already had at least five players in the corp offer him the ISK before he posted this. smart guy is making money now... If I need to clarify, he didn't accept anyone's money.
Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.01 13:57:00 - [163] Originally by: Neena Valdi Originally by: Joss Sparq Originally by: Neena Valdi Farming is not EULA violation. Buying ISK is ... Clause 16 of the Terms of Service could be applied to that, though. No, it can't. Really? Why would you say that? Also, no. 24 and no. 25, perhaps? If CCP says farming isn't allowed (I'm pretty they have, somewhere) then it isn't allowed and I'd have thought it only natural they have something every user has agreed to, to point at. (No. 15, maybe? I read the ToS and gave the EULA another glance. I didn't see anything I could apply in the EULA and figured the ToS was easier to apply when interpreted.)
Neena Valdi Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.01 14:39:00 - [164] Joss farming IS allowed.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.01 14:45:00 - [165] Good Move, CCP. And for OP. Don't accept gifts from uh ... 'friends' ... who buy isk. Besides that 41 mil is pocket change. If you would have got the char for '1 isk' you mentioned earlier you would get that '1 isk' back and would lose the char. Now you got 'free char' - if you don't like it feel free to trash it.
Menkaure Amarr Vanitas Corp.	Posted - 2007.11.01 14:49:00 - [166] Totally with CCP on this one. Is boiled down to... Dirty Money comes in, Dirty Money gets removed. If anything starts changing that basic factor, then Eve will seriously start going downhill. Character ownership in this case is irrelevant. GJ CCP.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.11.01 15:58:00 - [167] Though the other way to look at it is that the ISK belongs to CCP. It did, it does, it always will. The farmers didn't magic it into TQ, CCP allowed it to be put there. So when you're trying to apportion blame for dirty ISK existing, there's your guilty party. CCP. However, the RL money that people spend is not CCP's, it's there's, then CCP take it off them, and then CCP deny them access to CCP intellectual property that was originally agreed, and that's legal why? It's legal because CCP say it is, via the EULA. Since all CCP sell you is access to a service. They don't sell anything other than that. So anything else you get must be considered a bonus. Now, this is all very Western. The EULA is the bible. It's true because it says it's true within itself! Jackpot baby! Can't argue with logic like that! So you get stiffed, and feel like your money has been stolen. If a shop rips you off for ú20 you pour paint through the letterbox one night knowing full well you just cost them ú100 minimum. If a software company rips you off, you have no recourse whatsoever, unless you happen to know where they live. And it's local. Eurocom never annoyed me. Shame, I used to work next door to them. If I worked next door to CCP, they'd have footprints throughout most of their offices by now. -- Awwwww Diddums! Did I wardec your highsec alt recently or something?
MasterEnt	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:08:00 - [168] Well.. its funny, this same sense of "justice" is what we as Americans are dealing with right now. It does not work in the US, and it probably will not work here.
Nicho Void Gallente Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:13:00 - [169] Solution: Stop buying characters and play the game yourself, you ******* cheap bastard! ---------------
Achura Citizen 513536	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:34:00 - [170] So you can now: 1. Buy a new account $20 2. create a new character 3. Buy 4B Isk of Ebay $400? "whats the going rate" 4. buy some cool stuff and jetcan it to your main! 5. then sell that character legal though the current system for 4B Isk to your main 6. Step 4. Agian 7. Get a mate to dob in your alt for buying Isk 8. CCP Ask if you want to reverse the transaction 9. you say YES 10. CCP give your Main 4B Isk and your Alt has -8B* Isk :) 11. Delete account 12. Rinse and Repeat An Extra 4B Isk for the cost of $25 Dollars :) and you end up with CCP not only cleaning your money for you but they also double it SWEET Welldone CCP * = "-4 from buying isk + -4 from reversing transaction"

Tessai Lsha	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:54:00 - [171] Originally by: Achura Citizen 513536 So you can now: 1. Buy a new account $20 2. create a new character 3. Buy 4B Isk of Ebay $400? "whats the going rate" 4. buy some cool stuff and jetcan it to your main! 5. then sell that character legal though the current system for 4B Isk to your main 6. Step 4. Agian 7. Get a mate to dob in your alt for buying Isk 8. CCP Ask if you want to reverse the transaction 9. you say YES 10. CCP give your Main 4B Isk and your Alt has -8B* Isk :) 11. Delete account 12. Rinse and Repeat An Extra 4B Isk for the cost of $25 Dollars :) and you end up with CCP not only cleaning your money for you but they also double it SWEET Welldone CCP * = "-4 from buying isk + -4 from reversing transaction" only that i heard that they can trace all the items in game, like they have a unique mark, so whatever you buy will be traced directly to your main character and bingo! they'll have a winner
Achura Citizen 513536	Posted - 2007.11.01 17:10:00 - [172] Originally by: Tessai Lsha Originally by: Achura Citizen 513536 So you can now: 1. Buy a new account $20 2. create a new character 3. Buy 4B Isk of Ebay $400? "whats the going rate" 4. buy some cool stuff and jetcan it to your main! 5. then sell that character legal though the current system for 4B Isk to your main 6. Step 4. Agian 7. Get a mate to dob in your alt for buying Isk 8. CCP Ask if you want to reverse the transaction 9. you say YES 10. CCP give your Main 4B Isk and your Alt has -8B* Isk :) 11. Delete account 12. Rinse and Repeat An Extra 4B Isk for the cost of $25 Dollars :) and you end up with CCP not only cleaning your money for you but they also double it SWEET Welldone CCP * = "-4 from buying isk + -4 from reversing transaction" only that i heard that they can trace all the items in game, like they have a unique mark, so whatever you buy will be traced directly to your main character and bingo! they'll have a winner you would have to use some common sense like using JETCANS and that way its very hard to keep trake of it i mean if i was to realy do what i siad i would use all 4 of my acounts to pick up the jet cans so spreading the wealth i might also get the new acount to buy a hauler and attack it with my main then jet his pod to escape "how is ccp able to tell that wasnt legit" especialy if i use one of the 15 unsecured wifi routers near my house to get access to the acount ? how can CCP track my IP i wasnt planning on giving you a cookbook on it, but i KNOW this is a major exsploit that ccp MUST fix.
Sett Runesabre	Posted - 2007.11.01 17:18:00 - [173] "you" may not have purchased ISK, but you're now in possession of a character that did. It doesn't matter if you're the one who did the deed, rules are rules. An illegal act was committed and it has to be squared with the establishment. Think of it this way ... you're ::cough:: good friend knocks on your door one night and says "hey, I got a great deal on this DvD player for you. 10 bucks and it's yours" you accept the offer and your friend is on his way. Before you even get to watch your first movie, however, the police are at your house, arresting you for recieving stolen property. "I didn't do it!" you scream, but it doesn't matter. The property was not obtained legitimately and you are now in possession of it. You go down with the ship. It's a loose comparison, I know, but you get the idea. Consider yourself lucky that removing the offending ISK was the extent of CCP's actions. 41 mil ISK is paultry. I can just about guarantee you've spent more time on this thread than it would've taken you to recover the amount. It's not like you're really suffering here. You're just upset that you didn't get to keep the free money that you weren't really entitled to in the first place, right? I mean, it's not like they took your birthday away. Get some perspective and move on.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.01 17:46:00 - [174] In response to the original post: From reading, it seems you came to own the character by legit means. But ownership of the character is not the issue. The issue was the illegal isk. Just because the ownership of the account changed, EVEN IF THE TRANSFER ITSELF WAS FULLY LEGAL, does NOT make illegal isk suddenly become 'clean'. The GMs did the right thing. You got screwed by your 'friend'. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:01:00 - [175] Originally by: Khes Edited by: Khes on 01/11/2007 12:01:53 I can be a bit slow sometimes but I just don't see what is so unfair with this whole deal. You actually belive that If someone gives me money that is stolen it should be my right to keep it because it was not me that stole it??????? You're right, you are slow. The issue is that they took more isk than I got with the character. Therefore, they took isk that had not been purchased; it had been earned the proper way. Have some coffee, it might help.
Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:02:00 - [176] Originally by: Lord Saradomin agggggggh people like you get right on my jubblys!!!! i think the question here is why aren't you perm banned?! there should be no account purchasing/isk buying/timecard nonsense! you say you play the game for fun? then play it and build up you OWN stuff!! Read the thread. I am not banned because I didn't buy the isk. The previous owner of the character bought isk.
Demje	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:03:00 - [177] Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso Originally by: Khes Edited by: Khes on 01/11/2007 12:01:53 I can be a bit slow sometimes but I just don't see what is so unfair with this whole deal. You actually belive that If someone gives me money that is stolen it should be my right to keep it because it was not me that stole it??????? You're right, you are slow. The issue is that they took more isk than I got with the character. Therefore, they took isk that had not been purchased; it had been earned the proper way. Have some coffee, it might help. considering they only take the amount of isk that was bought, which clearly means some of it had been used before the isk was removed, therefor leading to the negative balance. u = /fail
Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:04:00 - [178] Originally by: Menkaure Totally with CCP on this one. Is boiled down to... Dirty Money comes in, Dirty Money gets removed. If anything starts changing that basic factor, then Eve will seriously start going downhill. Character ownership in this case is irrelevant. GJ CCP. Keep up. Dirty money went out but they took clean money too because the previous owner spent some of the purchased isk. Why should my clean money pay for dirty money when I had nothing to do with the isk purchase?
Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:05:00 - [179] Originally by: Nicho Void Solution: Stop buying characters and play the game yourself, you ******* cheap bastard! I have been playing the game for nearly a year. I have several characters over several accounts. I bet I have played more than you have.
Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:08:00 - [180] Originally by: Sett Runesabre "you" may not have purchased ISK, but you're now in possession of a character that did. It doesn't matter if you're the one who did the deed, rules are rules. An illegal act was committed and it has to be squared with the establishment. Think of it this way ... you're ::cough:: good friend knocks on your door one night and says "hey, I got a great deal on this DvD player for you. 10 bucks and it's yours" you accept the offer and your friend is on his way. Before you even get to watch your first movie, however, the police are at your house, arresting you for recieving stolen property. "I didn't do it!" you scream, but it doesn't matter. The property was not obtained legitimately and you are now in possession of it. You go down with the ship. It's a loose comparison, I know, but you get the idea. Consider yourself lucky that removing the offending ISK was the extent of CCP's actions. 41 mil ISK is paultry. I can just about guarantee you've spent more time on this thread than it would've taken you to recover the amount. It's not like you're really suffering here. You're just upset that you didn't get to keep the free money that you weren't really entitled to in the first place, right? I mean, it's not like they took your birthday away. Get some perspective and move on. Except that if it's CCP knocking on my door, not only would they take the CD player and me to jail, but they would also take all of my CDs. Your comparison is flawed.

Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:09:00 - [181] Originally by: Sergeant Spot In response to the original post: From reading, it seems you came to own the character by legit means. But ownership of the character is not the issue. The issue was the illegal isk. Just because the ownership of the account changed, EVEN IF THE TRANSFER ITSELF WAS FULLY LEGAL, does NOT make illegal isk suddenly become 'clean'. The GMs did the right thing. You got screwed by your 'friend'. You're right, they did the right thing taking away whatever isk came with the character. But are they still in the right taking away my own isk to make up the difference between what the character had and what was purchased? Riddle me that one, Batman.
Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:11:00 - [182] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso Keep up. Dirty money went out but they took clean money too because the previous owner spent some of the purchased isk. Why should my clean money pay for dirty money when I had nothing to do with the isk purchase? Or maybe he spend all his clean money and 41 million of his dirty money, thus leaving the character with -41 million after all dirty money was removed? Still, for owning 4 billion in assets I don't see why you can't just transfer it, it should be a trivial matter for you. It is. But it's CCP's flawed sense of justice and absurd policy that I am pointing out. By the way, I have been offered well over the 400 mill isk from generous people and have turned them all down with one exception. THanks to all of you who have been so generous.
Steel Tigeress Gallente Ravenous Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:07:00 - [183] This policy is all well and dandy, if no one ever lost money or assets. If no one ever lost money or assets, purchasing 350mil would mean that character still had 350 mil in cash or assets. How often does that happen, especially if somone is about to leave the game. so lets say the 350 mil the person bought, the character only has 250mil in cash and assets cause the original player was wreckless because he knew he was quiting. So now when the character is transfered to another player, and CCP takes the 350mil back....guess what. 100mil of the money they took back was the players that recieved the character. Thats how this system is robbing the new owner, and not just removing an advantage that the character had.

GM Nova Game Masters	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:52:00 - [184] Originally by: Achura Citizen 513536 Originally by: Tessai Lsha Originally by: Achura Citizen 513536 So you can now: 1. Buy a new account $20 2. create a new character 3. Buy 4B Isk of Ebay $400? "whats the going rate" 4. buy some cool stuff and jetcan it to your main! 5. then sell that character legal though the current system for 4B Isk to your main 6. Step 4. Agian 7. Get a mate to dob in your alt for buying Isk 8. CCP Ask if you want to reverse the transaction 9. you say YES 10. CCP give your Main 4B Isk and your Alt has -8B* Isk :) 11. Delete account 12. Rinse and Repeat An Extra 4B Isk for the cost of $25 Dollars :) and you end up with CCP not only cleaning your money for you but they also double it SWEET Welldone CCP * = "-4 from buying isk + -4 from reversing transaction" only that i heard that they can trace all the items in game, like they have a unique mark, so whatever you buy will be traced directly to your main character and bingo! they'll have a winner you would have to use some common sense like using JETCANS and that way its very hard to keep trake of it i mean if i was to realy do what i siad i would use all 4 of my acounts to pick up the jet cans so spreading the wealth i might also get the new acount to buy a hauler and attack it with my main then jet his pod to escape "how is ccp able to tell that wasnt legit" especialy if i use one of the 15 unsecured wifi routers near my house to get access to the acount ? how can CCP track my IP i wasnt planning on giving you a cookbook on it, but i KNOW this is a major exsploit that ccp MUST fix. Firstly; Didn't you read my reply? We can track everything. Absolutely everything. Your main would not only be out of the ammount you mention, but also on a very long vacation from EVE, along with all accounts you might have. Secondly; Is it your intention to try to advertize exploits on the forums, whether they work or not? Since, as you should know it is a violation of our EULA and Terms of Service. What is it with people who adamantly are intent to cheat? And why on earth would you like to cheat? We allready have a system through which you are able to make a little side ISK. Secure ETC trade. Let us realize here that by using the secure ETC trade, not only can you fatten your wallet a bit, but you are enriching the virtual world itself. We get more players, more diversity, more social networking and our world is richer and more interesting for it. It's a win win situation for everyone. Guys and Gals, we have to stick together on this. If you buy ISK for real money, you facilitate the hacking of accounts, credit card fraud, endless ISK advertizement spam, and so on and so forth. Where do you think the bought ISK comes from? It's not all farming I can tell you. The ISK sellers are NOT your friends, they will try everything to gain access to your account once you have received ISK from them. In some cases they will gain access to your account, rob it and then sell the ISK they just sold to you again. They are criminals, not people you want to have anything to do with. I call on you to start a movement to end all this nonsense. Help us help you. We are absolutely on YOUR side. GM Nova

Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:10:00 - [185] in short, the OP got a new character for 41 mil, which is actually pretty cheap, and is whining about it I'm currently involved in medical research, concerning the therapuetic aspects of a swift kick in the rear What do zombies and forum posters have in common? They like to sit about and moan!
Cosmo Raata Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:21:00 - [186] Firstly; Didn't you read my reply? We can track everything. Absolutely everything. Your main would not only be out of the ammount you mention, but also on a very long vacation from EVE, along with all accounts you might have. Secondly; Is it your intention to try to advertize exploits on the forums, whether they work or not? Since, as you should know it is a violation of our EULA and Terms of Service. What is it with people who adamantly are intent to cheat? And why on earth would you like to cheat? We allready have a system through which you are able to make a little side ISK. Secure ETC trade. Let us realize here that by using the secure ETC trade, not only can you fatten your wallet a bit, but you are enriching the virtual world itself. We get more players, more diversity, more social networking and our world is richer and more interesting for it. It's a win win situation for everyone. Guys and Gals, we have to stick together on this. If you buy ISK for real money, you facilitate the hacking of accounts, credit card fraud, endless ISK advertizement spam, and so on and so forth. Where do you think the bought ISK comes from? It's not all farming I can tell you. The ISK sellers are NOT your friends, they will try everything to gain access to your account once you have received ISK from them. In some cases they will gain access to your account, rob it and then sell the ISK they just sold to you again. They are criminals, not people you want to have anything to do with. I call on you to start a movement to end all this nonsense. Help us help you. We are absolutely on YOUR side. GM Nova I agree with what was done, honestly I do, however because of so many other issues between Devs/GM's & players we tend to argue above & beyond what we really believe anymore. Lack of communication on so many other issues have promoted this type of behavior amongst us. Secret Carrier Nerfs, The Joke of Amarr, Petition system; a lot of us are just starting to feel that we are no longer considered valued customers. You dont show it anymore. We used to get 1 day reimbursements for lost days of play due to server probs, we got ships back that were lost from server issues, TomB & Tuxford communicated about balancing with us. Its all gone!!! So if we get defensive on a subject like this where we should be agreeing with you, sorry, you kind of made us this way (bitter, untrusting & resentful). You want to fix it? Well then finish what you started so long ago, when there was an initiative made to keep communication open combined with a log of dev replies (dev lite). Its gone, we get few responses now and dev lite never was done properly. Until you communicate about 10x more than you do now, you're going to continue getting this crap. Maya Angelou once said, "If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude." Don't Ban me for my Love of Amarr!
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:24:00 - [187] actually I think it was the blackhole of stupidity that swallowed your post CCP never named names moron, and I know for a fact they HAVE been banning them (I kept a couple in my corp just long enough for CCP to deal with them ) I'm currently involved in medical research, concerning the therapuetic aspects of a swift kick in the rear What do zombies and forum posters have in common? They like to sit about and moan!
Cosmo Raata Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:27:00 - [188] wow, they deleted his post fast Don't Ban me for my Love of Amarr!
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:29:00 - [189] no loss, either way just makes me look like I'm talking to myself I'm currently involved in medical research, concerning the therapuetic aspects of a swift kick in the rear What do zombies and forum posters have in common? They like to sit about and moan!
Egg Rollz mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:37:00 - [190] The identities of macro farmers are not a complete mystery. If you cruise around the system of Motsu and you encounter 3 Ravens at a gate, with names of, lets say: qnxio qntsu qnlei, all in the starter corp, it's a safe bet they're bots. [I just completely made up those names off the top of my head. I apologize if those are your legitimate characters, and I don't intend any actions on those specific, random names.] Also, this has been maybe a secret of our corp [because we enjoy blowing these guys up...], but there are a few systems in Eve where dozens, if not hundreds of botting haulers run their Iterons through low security space running hauling missions. I am willing to provide specific names, places, times, etc. to any GMs who contact me about this. You may say that there is a band of people who play together and do the hauling missions, but if you encounter 20 different pilots, all in the starting corp, all about 1 month old, all with similar names, all running the missions, passing through the same area (which has a native population of about 5 pilots)... Things start to add up.

Egg Rollz mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:41:00 - [191] Quote: Firstly; Didn't you read my reply? We can track everything. Absolutely everything. Except those specific times where "your logs did not indicate any problems" and our reimbursement petitions are denied
hUssmann Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:56:00 - [192] Originally by: Egg Rollz Quote: Firstly; Didn't you read my reply? We can track everything. Absolutely everything. Except those specific times where "your logs did not indicate any problems" and our reimbursement petitions are denied Fail, I was just about to post this. Ginger Magician > You are merely an effective ganker of haulers who runs at the first sign of combat.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:05:00 - [193] Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso Originally by: Khes Edited by: Khes on 01/11/2007 12:01:53 I can be a bit slow sometimes but I just don't see what is so unfair with this whole deal. You actually belive that If someone gives me money that is stolen it should be my right to keep it because it was not me that stole it??????? You're right, you are slow. The issue is that they took more isk than I got with the character. Therefore, they took isk that had not been purchased; it had been earned the proper way. Have some coffee, it might help. You have gotten the character with isk and assets. So unless they removed: a) all the assets; b) all the isk c) all the skill trained with brought skillbooks; you are still in the positive. The cost for the character was 0 isk. To pay the transfer fee was your decision as that should be paid by the one giving away the character. What you should look is if the assets and skill on the character are worth the 41 million isk or not. If you feel they aren't worth it you can trash the character and kick yourself for paying the transfer. If the assets and skills are worth more than the 41 millions you are in the negative, you had a good deal.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:08:00 - [194] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 01/11/2007 23:13:42 Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso Originally by: Menkaure Totally with CCP on this one. Is boiled down to... Dirty Money comes in, Dirty Money gets removed. If anything starts changing that basic factor, then Eve will seriously start going downhill. Character ownership in this case is irrelevant. GJ CCP. Keep up. Dirty money went out but they took clean money too because the previous owner spent some of the purchased isk. Why should my clean money pay for dirty money when I had nothing to do with the isk purchase? Want an alternative? CCP could remove trained skillbooks cost up to 41 millions, only those learned and trained before the change of ownership, obviously. You will not lose isk, but I think any person in the same continent with you will hear your screams.
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:32:00 - [195] The following from someone who hasn't ever publicly had a negative word for CCP's policy of selling GTCs for rl$, and wholeheartedly supports policies to keep MMOs 'pure.' Originally by: GM Nova Originally by: Achura Citizen 513536 So you can now: 1. Buy a new account $20 2. create a new character 3. Buy 4B Isk of Ebay $400? "whats the going rate" 4. buy some cool stuff and jetcan it to your main! 5. then sell that character legal though the current system for 4B Isk to your main 6. Step 4. Agian 7. Get a mate to dob in your alt for buying Isk 8. CCP Ask if you want to reverse the transaction 9. you say YES 10. CCP give your Main 4B Isk and your Alt has -8B* Isk :) 11. Delete account 12. Rinse and Repeat An Extra 4B Isk for the cost of $25 Dollars :) and you end up with CCP not only cleaning your money for you but they also double it SWEET Welldone CCP * = "-4 from buying isk + -4 from reversing transaction" Firstly; Didn't you read my reply? We can track everything. Absolutely everything. Your main would not only be out of the ammount you mention, but also on a very long vacation from EVE, along with all accounts you might have. So since CCP is omniscience itself... A) You're too lazy to properly go through the logs for petitions and/or past grievances, or B) You're lying now? Originally by: GM Nova Secondly; Is it your intention to try to advertize exploits on the forums, whether they work or not? Since, as you should know it is a violation of our EULA and Terms of Service. *It's now a violation of EULA and Terms of Service to talk about your publicly stated, official* corporate policies?! Originally by:** GM Nova What is it with people who adamantly are intent to cheat? And why on earth would you like to cheat? We allready have a system through which you are able to make a little side ISK. Secure ETC trade. Let us realize here that by using the secure ETC trade, not only can you fatten your wallet a bit, but you are enriching the virtual world itself. We get more players, more diversity, more social networking and our world is richer and more interesting for it. It's a win win situation for everyone. And by "enriching the virtual world" you mean "CCP gets paid more"? If you don't want your posts picked apart, then it's easy -- quit saying silly things. Originally by: GM Nova Guys and Gals, we have to stick together on this. If you buy ISK for real money, you facilitate the hacking of accounts, credit card fraud, endless ISK advertizement spam, and so on and so forth. Where do you think the bought ISK comes from? It's not all farming I can tell you. The ISK sellers are NOT your friends, they will try everything to gain access to your account once you have received ISK from them. In some cases they will gain access to your account, rob it and then sell the ISK they just sold to you again. They are criminals, not people you want to have anything to do with. I call on you to start a movement to end all this nonsense. Help us help you. We are absolutely on YOUR side. GM Nova W...T...F? Do you honestly believe people will accept this?! ISK farming (which gives subscription cash to CCP) is okay. ISK selling (which doesn't give cash to CCP) is EVIL! EVIL! EVIL! Furthmore, if you buy ISK (which, presumably, doesn't come from ISK farmers -- perhaps magic gnomes are involved in Step 2), YOU are to blame for hacking / CC fraud / ISK spam / Amarr / everything else that is evil ingame. Welcome to the dark side old friend. .Shar Where we hate people through words.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:51:00 - [196] Originally by: Neena Valdi Joss farming IS allowed. MACROing is not allowed under any circumstances. Furthermore, it is the macroing and the repetitive same missions that allow the isk farmer to thrive. One thing this thread has proven is that CCP is still going after the wrong people and failing to prevent the isk farmers. The other thing this thread has done is reaffirm that these forums are a total sewer with people that have all the redeeming value of three day old vomit. No offence ... Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Siresa Talesi	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:14:00 - [197] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Joss Sparq Originally by: CCP Wrangler Since someone sold ISK to that character, the ISK was removed. So you (CCP) won't differentiate between past and current character owners, okay. Ofcourse not. If I were to steal AMDs newest CPU before they launched it, put it in my desktop at home and then sell that desktop computer to you.. you think IBM would lose their legal claim on the CPU? It's still stolen property and will be confiscated from you were they to discover you possessed it, no? We're reclaiming illegaly obtained goods, not bombing anyone. The OP wasn't penalized, the character he bought was taken down a peg to be equal with others i.e. his networth was put to where it should be. Your analogy is flawed. The situation at hand is more like this: You steal an AMD processor (purchase ISK), put it in your desktop (character), then remove that processor, sell the desktop, and the new owner supplies his own processor (ISK). You are telling me now that the original owner of the stolen processor has a claim on the desktop owner's new processor? How does that make sense? You're not reclaiming illegally obtained goods, you're stealing legally obtained goods from an innocent party in the equivalent value of goods you had stolen from you, that is not justice by any definition. Originally by: CCP Prism X It sucks to buy stolen goods without knowing it and then have to deal with the authority knocking on your door, but you can't state the authority is being unfair. It would be unfair against the original victim if you were allowed to keep the goods. Justice is when given rules govern everybody regardless of their situation, anything else is favouritism. Yes, it is the authority's responsibility to reclaim stolen goods (not just their equivalent), but it is also their responsibility to track down the original perpetrator of the crime and punish them for their deeds. In this situation, you have received the value of your lost goods and called it "case closed," with no care to pursue the matter any further, and you are negligent in your duty. This is not justice, it is thugery. Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 31/10/2007 13:41:03 ... When someone buys ISK the victim is the entire eve population. That's the crime here: ISK was bought, a characters value was unfairly adjusted, we fixed it. ... You maintain that we're being unfair to the OP by following the rules and regulations we set in place and is common knowledge to everyone. I maintain that we'd be unfair to everyone else if we didn't. Our opinions on just actions are obviously based on mighty different principles so there's no arguing this. Fact of the matter is that if we see ISK being bought we reverse the transaction for the sake of EVE. EOF. The problem with your regulations is that they miss the target - you are targetting characters as perpetrators instead of those characters' owners! When a player buys ISK, they are not "unfairly adjusting" the value of the character, the character still has the same skills, etc., and the ISK is liquid and can be moved freely between characters. They are unfairly adjusting the value of the account! If this is how you pursue your justice, than you will never stop the ISK sellers becasue you never punish them, they just have to use disposable characters to make their transfers, and they have ensured their personal safety. It seems that the principle you base your "justice" on is the idea that regardless of who pays for it, the innocent or the guilty (but most often the innocent), as long as you get your money, everything is ok. Your system is broken, your principles false. At best, you are punishing a fictional, nonexistant entity, a character in a game with no cognizance of its own, instead of the individual behind it. At worst, you penalize an innocent and paying customer. It is no wonder that the ISK sellers flourish!
Dulcinea Toboso	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:44:00 - [198] Originally by: Egg Rollz Quote: Firstly; Didn't you read my reply? We can track everything. Absolutely everything. Except those specific times where "your logs did not indicate any problems" and our reimbursement petitions are denied touche!
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.11.02 05:52:00 - [199] Originally by: Egg Rollz Quote: Firstly; Didn't you read my reply? We can track everything. Absolutely everything. Except those specific times where "your logs did not indicate any problems" and our reimbursement petitions are denied Because you petition for losses due to lag, which: 1. Is absolutely impossible for CCP's servers to keep track off for every user that is logged on. 2. Is not something that is grounds for getting a ship reimbursed to begin with.
Helen Hunts Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc	Posted - 2007.11.02 06:15:00 - [200] The bit about ISK sellers hacking accounts is quite valid. Some of these operators like to use trojans and keyloggers that force themselves onto your system just for visiting the seller's website. Now that you've got a keylogger on your system, you log into EVE to play with your newly purchased fortune....and give these creeps your password. At this point, they may have enough information to later log in on your account and empty out any assets you have access to, including corp/alliance assets. How do you know an ISK seller's website is toxic? You don't. At least not until you find out the hard way. _______________________________ Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money. Any Questions?

Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.02 07:13:00 - [201] Originally by: Neena Valdi Joss farming IS allowed. Really? I have always been under the strict impression that CCP frowned on it, be it farming items from complexes (COSMOS or otherwise) or farming ISK itself for sale. Odd. Oh well. We've had official responses in here so far, a brief clarification would be informative. I mean, lets say you are totally right, then the ISK itself isn't "dirty" (that is, if it was "farmed") until it was sold for dollars - at which point it is clear it can be removed. So technically, it'd have every right to be in the economy until it was sold for dollars, which doesn't actually have any (inflation) effect on the game economy other than shifting the ISK to a new wallet location. Interesting, at least intellectually. Originally by: GM Nova I call on you to start a movement to end all this nonsense. Help us help you. We are absolutely on YOUR side. While I certainly agree with your sentiments regarding the deplorable activities of those who supply the ISK which is being bought, I call on you to stop penalizing customers when they haven't done anything wrong. Really, how can you even begin to expect a positive response to your call to action from the people who are buying ISK when you're admittedly jerking around someone who didn't even do anything wrong? Originally by: Venkul Mul Want an alternative? CCP could remove trained skillbooks cost up to 41 millions, only those learned and trained before the change of ownership, obviously. You will not lose isk, but I think any person in the same continent with you will hear your screams. Aside from your idea being completely asinine, that'd just cement a situation where CCP isn't just removing ISK from a paying customer who did nothing wrong, it'd also be stealing the real money someone like the OP may have spent in order to train that character on that account - when they have not actually done anything wrong! In case people have managed to keep missing it during the last one hundred and eighty something posts, it seems the OP never did anything malign and a GM has said they know this - they never tried to cheat - they never tried to buy ISK - they never knew the previous owner was involved in buying ISK until ISK including ISK they had since earned was removed - so they lost their own ISK while being punished - for something they had nothing to do with - clear? This could happen to anyone who has ever bought a character from another account, strictly via the "supported method" or not - it doesn't seem to matter.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.02 07:20:00 - [202] Originally by: Achura Citizen 513536 you would have to use some common sense like using JETCANS and that way its very hard to keep trake of it i mean if i was to realy do what i siad i would use all 4 of my acounts to pick up the jet cans so spreading the wealth i might also get the new acount to buy a hauler and attack it with my main then jet his pod to escape "how is ccp able to tell that wasnt legit" especialy if i use one of the 15 unsecured wifi routers near my house to get access to the acount ? how can CCP track my IP i wasnt planning on giving you a cookbook on it, but i KNOW this is a major exsploit that ccp MUST fix. It's possible to track computers from where you login to EVE. You do something against EULA then it's relatively simple query to look up all other accounts where one has been logging from same machine and then dig to the bottom of it. It's not some random algorithm you are trying to fool here but real people with proper tools for tracking all kind of stuff.
Angel DeMorphis	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:19:00 - [203] Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso Originally by: Angel DeMorphis Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso CCP not only took the character's money that it came with, but they dipped into my own personal account as well. That CANNOT be right! Hmm... Going back on your story? You said they took the ISK from the free character that was given to you, not your own personal account... They left the character with negative isk. Where do you think that isk will come from? It will come from MY efforts in the game to make isk. That's taking from me! No, Dulcina. What they left you with was a character you got for free that happened to have a negative balance. You can do one of two things. You can trash the character. You don't care because you got it for free anyway, right? If it is such a terrible thing that this character has a negative balance, you should have no qualms with putting him in the recycler. (The fact that you paid cash to the giver, again, cannot not be brought into account, since that was outside the appropriate policy of doing these things.) Or you can pay your own money to get the character out of a negative balance, which means you really just paid 40 Million ISK for a character which, by the sounds of it, you really want. CCP did not take any ISK from your other characters, so no, they didn't take ISK from you. The character you got was free. You didn't pay any ISK for it. If you CHOOSE to put efforts in the game to get the character out of negative balance, that's your CHOICE. That's not CCP dipping into your own personal account. You're twisting things to try to make it go your way, and you're not doing a very good job at it.
Angel DeMorphis	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:21:00 - [204] Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso Originally by: Sergeant Spot In response to the original post: From reading, it seems you came to own the character by legit means. But ownership of the character is not the issue. The issue was the illegal isk. Just because the ownership of the account changed, EVEN IF THE TRANSFER ITSELF WAS FULLY LEGAL, does NOT make illegal isk suddenly become 'clean'. The GMs did the right thing. You got screwed by your 'friend'. You're right, they did the right thing taking away whatever isk came with the character. But are they still in the right taking away my own isk to make up the difference between what the character had and what was purchased? Riddle me that one, Batman. Just to reinforce what I just posted with another quote, they didn't take your own ISK to make up the difference. If you inject your own ISK into this character after this, that's your own CHOICE. For all you care, you got the character for free and shouldn't mind putting it in the dumpster, then, if it really is that big of a deal.
Angel DeMorphis	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:26:00 - [205] Originally by: Steel Tigeress This policy is all well and dandy, if no one ever lost money or assets. If no one ever lost money or assets, purchasing 350mil would mean that character still had 350 mil in cash or assets. How often does that happen, especially if somone is about to leave the game. so lets say the 350 mil the person bought, the character only has 250mil in cash and assets cause the original player was wreckless because he knew he was quiting. So now when the character is transfered to another player, and CCP takes the 350mil back....guess what. 100mil of the money they took back was the players that recieved the character. Thats how this system is robbing the new owner, and not just removing an advantage that the character had. Except if that happens CCP can reverse the transfer, so the player that received the character wouldn't be out anything. And if the character was given for free, you can choose to pay your own 100 Mil for it, or you can trash it. Shouldn't matter to you. When this situation happens, all it means is that you were given a character that had a negative balance. If you don't think it's worth the 100 Mil or 40 Mil to have, then trash it. Remember, both CCP and the OP confirmed that this character was GIVEN to her, for FREE. (If she paid cash to the giver, that cannot be taken into account.) If the free character isn't worth the 100 Mil, then she shouldn't bother with it.
ry ry StateCorp The State	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:29:00 - [206] Edited by: ry ry on 02/11/2007 13:29:54 were i the suspicious type, i 'd wonder if it was actually the character the OP and his mate were laundering, rather than any money, so he could have it back if his account was banned.
Angel DeMorphis	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:41:00 - [207] Originally by: Joss Sparq In case people have managed to keep missing it during the last two hundred something posts, it seems the OP never did anything malign and a GM has said they know this - they never tried to cheat - they never tried to buy ISK - they never knew the previous owner was involved in buying ISK until ISK including ISK they had since earned was removed - so they lost their own ISK while being punished - for something they had nothing to do with - clear? The only malign thing the OP did was whine about being given a free character that she'd have to pay 40 Million to use. They didn't lose their own ISK at all. The end effect was not CCP stealing from her account, only her receiving a free character that happened to have a negative balance. She must be American. There's so many people here in America that whine about getting free stuff.
Cold Sleeper	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:54:00 - [208] Toon transfers should delete all the isks that is tied to that toon. That will make it easier for CCP to transfer and no more crying
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.11.02 19:28:00 - [209] Originally by: Cold Sleeper Toon transfers should delete all the isks that is tied to that toon. That will make it easier for CCP to transfer and no more crying QFT! Delete all the ISK and clear the possibility of any debts whenever a character is transferred. It's not like CCP isn't being paid for every character transfer that takes place. Then CCP can actually do its job when it uncovers an ISK seller (ignoring the ISK farmer of course) and track the purchased ISK through accounts / CCNs / IPs. Welcome to the dark side old friend. .Shar Where we hate people through words.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:14:00 - [210] Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso Originally by: Menkaure Totally with CCP on this one. Is boiled down to... Dirty Money comes in, Dirty Money gets removed. If anything starts changing that basic factor, then Eve will seriously start going downhill. Character ownership in this case is irrelevant. GJ CCP. Keep up. Dirty money went out but they took clean money too because the previous owner spent some of the purchased isk. Why should my clean money pay for dirty money when I had nothing to do with the isk purchase? Ok, you are really slow. Just because dirty isk was spent DOES NOT mean that the "value" of that dirty isk should not be removed by GMs. If a Character recieved 400m in Dirty isk --then-- 400m in isk should be removed, regardless of is some of the isk was spent before th GMs get to it. Its really simple. Play nice while you butcher each other.

Yggdrassil STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.03 00:09:00 - [211] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso CCP asked me. Simple as that. They asked me if I had purchased the character or had gotten it some other way. I answered like I always do, honestly. I should write them back and say, hey, I was wrong, I did buy the character, and then all would be returned. Again, I see that as total equine excrements. The ISK wouldn't be returned to the character, you'd just get the character transfer reversed. You wouldn't get any ISK back from the transfer either since you didn't pay any ISK for the character. Basically, the way it is now you've got a character, even though it has minus balance in the wallet. If the transfer was reversed you wouldn't have that either. Probably way too late in this thread - as the CCP staff has stopped watching it, but what the heck... Why not put characters that are sold the legal way in the "Personality Switching Corp" or something like that while the transfer is settled. This way, CCP and players are able to see at the exact point when a character changed ownership. Furthermore, when investigating stuff like this, you do know what date&time the crime was committed. I would imagine that a straight-forward way to recover the bought isk would be to see who owned the character at that time. If the character had changed hands - you go back and look to which account the isk went, and take the isk back from him. Explained: jan 07: "TopGun" buys 5B isk feb 07: "TopGun" is sold to "Max", payment sent to "LousyIskBuyer". mar 07: "TopGun" buys 2B isk apr 07: "TopGun" is sold to "HonestMike", payment sent to "DirtyCop" Nov 07: CCP finds out about both isk buyings. Nov 07: CCP checks "TopGun"s corp history, sees the two character transfers. Nov 07: CCP deducts 5B isk from "LousyIskBuyer" for buying isk. Nov 07: CCP deducts 2B isk from "DirtyCop" I might loose the plot somewhere, its late in the night, but... Haven't the ISK been taken away in a more "just" way? Aren't the innocent, rule abiding players better protected? Yggdrassil
Dez Erichs Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.03 07:12:00 - [212] Originally by: GM Nova Firstly; Didn't you read my reply? We can track everything. Absolutely everything. Your main would not only be out of the ammount you mention, but also on a very long vacation from EVE, along with all accounts you might have. Secondly; Is it your intention to try to advertize exploits on the forums, whether they work or not? Since, as you should know it is a violation of our EULA and Terms of Service. What is it with people who adamantly are intent to cheat? And why on earth would you like to cheat? We allready have a system through which you are able to make a little side ISK. Secure ETC trade. Let us realize here that by using the secure ETC trade, not only can you fatten your wallet a bit, but you are enriching the virtual world itself. We get more players, more diversity, more social networking and our world is richer and more interesting for it. It's a win win situation for everyone. Guys and Gals, we have to stick together on this. If you buy ISK for real money, you facilitate the hacking of accounts, credit card fraud, endless ISK advertizement spam, and so on and so forth. Where do you think the bought ISK comes from? It's not all farming I can tell you. The ISK sellers are NOT your friends, they will try everything to gain access to your account once you have received ISK from them. In some cases they will gain access to your account, rob it and then sell the ISK they just sold to you again. They are criminals, not people you want to have anything to do with. I call on you to start a movement to end all this nonsense. Help us help you. We are absolutely on YOUR side. GM Nova I'm on your side as well. There's a defect in the character trading system, please have a look at my post at: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=626666&page=1 You say that everything can be tracked, and implementing the scheme that I have outlined should not be too hard. Please consider what I have to say. --- PvP Training: www.agony-unleashed.com, "Veni, Vidi, Caedi"
E Vile Fifth Exiled Legion SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.03 08:18:00 - [213] That's what you get for buying a character. Personally I wish they didn't allow characters to be sold. Would have alot less old uber toons in this game. Don't worry, I'll never get my wish on that one.
E Vile Fifth Exiled Legion SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.03 08:21:00 - [214] Originally by: Yggdrassil Originally by: CCP Wrangler Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso CCP asked me. Simple as that. They asked me if I had purchased the character or had gotten it some other way. I answered like I always do, honestly. I should write them back and say, hey, I was wrong, I did buy the character, and then all would be returned. Again, I see that as total equine excrements. The ISK wouldn't be returned to the character, you'd just get the character transfer reversed. You wouldn't get any ISK back from the transfer either since you didn't pay any ISK for the character. Basically, the way it is now you've got a character, even though it has minus balance in the wallet. If the transfer was reversed you wouldn't have that either. Probably way too late in this thread - as the CCP staff has stopped watching it, but what the heck... Why not put characters that are sold the legal way in the "Personality Switching Corp" or something like that while the transfer is settled. This way, CCP and players are able to see at the exact point when a character changed ownership. Furthermore, when investigating stuff like this, you do know what date&time the crime was committed. I would imagine that a straight-forward way to recover the bought isk would be to see who owned the character at that time. If the character had changed hands - you go back and look to which account the isk went, and take the isk back from him. Explained: jan 07: "TopGun" buys 5B isk feb 07: "TopGun" is sold to "Max", payment sent to "LousyIskBuyer". mar 07: "TopGun" buys 2B isk apr 07: "TopGun" is sold to "HonestMike", payment sent to "DirtyCop" Nov 07: CCP finds out about both isk buyings. Nov 07: CCP checks "TopGun"s corp history, sees the two character transfers. Nov 07: CCP deducts 5B isk from "LousyIskBuyer" for buying isk. Nov 07: CCP deducts 2B isk from "DirtyCop" I might loose the plot somewhere, its late in the night, but... Haven't the ISK been taken away in a more "just" way? Aren't the innocent, rule abiding players better protected? It's like the charge for Possesion of stolen property. Don't matter if you stole it. It's a crime to posses it also.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.03 08:22:00 - [215] How much more would people be willing to pay CCP to audit each character in advance of the transfer, guaranteeing the buyer against any consequences of the seller's actions? How much would it cost to do this? My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Tessai Lsha	Posted - 2007.11.03 11:28:00 - [216] Originally by: Dulcinea Toboso Originally by: Egg Rollz Quote: Firstly; Didn't you read my reply? We can track everything. Absolutely everything. Except those specific times where "your logs did not indicate any problems" and our reimbursement petitions are denied touche! sometimes problems are due to your client and not CCP's server
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.03 11:44:00 - [217] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro How much more would people be willing to pay CCP to audit each character in advance of the transfer, guaranteeing the buyer against any consequences of the seller's actions? How much would it cost to do this? Now THAT is a good point. Auditing characters as part of offical character transefers seems to be an excellent idea, even if the added labor adds some cost to the process. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Tessai Lsha	Posted - 2007.11.03 11:50:00 - [218] Originally by: Ramblin Man Originally by: GM Nova Guys and Gals, we have to stick together on this. If you buy ISK for real money, you facilitate the hacking of accounts, credit card fraud, endless ISK advertizement spam, and so on and so forth. Where do you think the bought ISK comes from? It's not all farming I can tell you. The ISK sellers are NOT your friends, they will try everything to gain access to your account once you have received ISK from them. In some cases they will gain access to your account, rob it and then sell the ISK they just sold to you again. They are criminals, not people you want to have anything to do with. I call on you to start a movement to end all this nonsense. Help us help you. We are absolutely on YOUR side. GM Nova W...T...F? Do you honestly believe people will accept this?! ISK farming (which gives subscription cash to CCP) is okay. ISK selling (which doesn't give cash to CCP) is EVIL! EVIL! EVIL! Furthmore, if you buy ISK (which, presumably, doesn't come from ISK farmers -- perhaps magic gnomes are involved in Step 2), YOU are to blame for hacking / CC fraud / ISK spam / Amarr / everything else that is evil ingame. ISK farming aka playing to make ISK is what everyone does, you, me, the guy playing EVE next door. So you state the obvious and highlight it in green. OK .... ISK selling is bad because it leads people to exploit the game to seek profit in real life. ISK farmers who sell ISK for real life currency could really give **** about CCP's game, you, your character/corp/alliance, money you paid for subscription or your enjoyment of the game. All they care about is squeezing out more money. And if they ruin this game there are a dozen others to farm, and new games coming out. Furthermore, nothing wrong with purple gnomes farming ISK. The purple gnomes that use ISK to pay for their subscription in way of GTCs only need 1.6 bil ISK to pay for subscription for the game. They play about 2-3 hours each day, make 10-150 mil on average, train their characters which they don't really want to lose so they don't break the eula. The purple gnoes that farm ISK to get cash from people like you will not suffice with 1.6 billion ISK a year. They play 20-23 hours a day, all their characters are disposable so they don't care to break the rules, and they'll try to farm out 100+ bil of game resources per year by ways of: 1) ratting in 0.0 and blobing you with their ravens if you try ratting alongside 2) mining out all the good ores in all the good places with 1 person controlling 10 accounts before you can get to it 3) posting a fake character sale and following ferengi Rule of Acquisition #1: once you have their money, you never give it back 4) convoing noobs and offering to buy their game time codes with dirty isk though insecure way, noobs don't know any better and get screwed 5) plain ol' account hacking and stealing of your money 6) running missions and selling lp store items much lower than you can sell them because its a helluva lot of missions one can farm with 5-10 ravens up and running per person And if you buy ISK these guys say "hey, there's a demand, wonder how we can maximize profits" meaning wonder how we can exploit the game some more and squeeze more of the virtual resources out of it to sell to poor suckers who don't get that they are screwing themselves in the first place by creating the demand. It is the demand that creates a market if you didn't know it and ISK gets sold because people buy it.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.03 11:52:00 - [219] Originally by: Joss Sparq Originally by: Venkul Mul Want an alternative? CCP could remove trained skillbooks cost up to 41 millions, only those learned and trained before the change of ownership, obviously. You will not lose isk, but I think any person in the same continent with you will hear your screams. Aside from your idea being completely asinine, that'd just cement a situation where CCP isn't just removing ISK from a paying customer who did nothing wrong, it'd also be stealing the real money someone like the OP may have spent in order to train that character on that account - when they have not actually done anything wrong! In case people have managed to keep missing it during the last two hundred something posts, it seems the OP never did anything malign and a GM has said they know this - they never tried to cheat - they never tried to buy ISK - they never knew the previous owner was involved in buying ISK until ISK including ISK they had since earned was removed - so they lost their own ISK while being punished - for something they had nothing to do with - clear? This could happen to anyone who has ever bought a character from another account, strictly via the "supported method" or not - it doesn't seem to matter. First my comment was intended as a thought provoking one (something that has not affected you) and not as a suggestion to implement that. Second: the thing that I wanted people to think about is that the brought isk have raised the value of the character, even if they have been sped in lost items. If a character buy 400 millions in isk from seller he has 400 million available and has no need to use the isk he is producing to buy ships or implant or whatsoever he like. So he has more isk available to buy skillbooks, to put implant for faster training in the character, or simply he don't need to put the character to farming without training to feed isk to his main character that is training on the same account. The end results is that the character has more skillpoint and more skills trained, so he is worth more, as the skills are the most enduring thing in EVE. So the fact that the character in question had more 400 million isk available to himself translate directly in the fact that he had better options to train and increase is net worth. Substantially he (the character) had an unjust advantage that removing the isk correct only partially.
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.11.03 12:35:00 - [220] The guy that ripped you off is to blame not CCP, Get over it.

Cygnus Zhada Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.03 13:11:00 - [221] I guess the best way to be safe when buying a character would be to send a petition asking for a seal of approval the second you are in control of that character, before doing anything else. That means that IF anything is wrong you will have invested the least possible amount of effort into that character and it's easier for CCP to backtrack the seller and his Isk streams. Welcome to EVE Online: Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics All the things she said	Posted - 2007.11.03 14:03:00 - [222] Originally by: Sergeant Spot Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro How much more would people be willing to pay CCP to audit each character in advance of the transfer, guaranteeing the buyer against any consequences of the seller's actions? How much would it cost to do this? Now THAT is a good point. Auditing characters as part of offical character transefers seems to be an excellent idea, even if the added labor adds some cost to the process. It's rather shocking in the first place that they don't audit the characters, unsure but as the character remains at all times the sole property of ccp, surely they're responsible for the state of the account/character at the point of sale... or transfer if you will. Placing that burden elsewhere after the event is very poor on ccp's part... they are effectively selling you a defective product.. and then making you suffer the consequences for that neglect. Saying what extra would you pay ect... im sorry but it should be standard practice. ______
Jonny29	Posted - 2007.11.03 14:53:00 - [223] You're whining because your free ride was taken away? Boo-Hoo. Make a living like everyone else has to.
Jintak	Posted - 2007.11.30 02:59:00 - [224] GBT/WOW/ or STOP SAYING TOON FFS, GORRAMIT.
Syrec Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.30 04:18:00 - [225] sorry for your loss, I hope this works out for you
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.11.30 04:32:00 - [226] Its alive!! grab the holy water!! grab the stakes!! Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.11.30 04:57:00 - [227] Heh, this one is entertaining enough that I don't mind it being necro'd. Die, isk buyers. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Steel Tigeress Gallente Ravenous Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.30 05:13:00 - [228] Originally by: GM Nova Firstly; Didn't you read my reply? We can track everything. Absolutely everything. Your main would not only be out of the ammount you mention, but also on a very long vacation from EVE, along with all accounts you might have. I'm sorry, but our logs dont indicate anything out of the ordinary.....
Danae Melios Azteca Transportation Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.30 06:30:00 - [229] Edited by: Danae Melios on 30/11/2007 06:34:19 Apparently part of the problem is two different sets of cultural norms and laws. One says that property transfers are legal even if the seller has no title, if the transaction is done in good faith. This was argued several times in this thread, cba to link it. The other (which is the case where I am) says that stolen property will be returned to the owner without compensation. In fact, the law where I am goes even further and says that possession of stolen goods is itself illegal. I would hazard that the internet lawyers in this thread are working from different legal frameworks, making a rather common error in assuming that the case is within the scope of their familiarity. Frankly, arguing law (particularly law regarding property rights) on the internet in an internationally public space is an exercise in futility and frustration. The fact is, there is a policy, and it says the character's wallet will be hit for the total amount of ISK received illicitly. I know this was necroed from about a month ago, but the issue remains. YOU PURCHASE CHARACTERS AT YOUR OWN RISK! Any transferred characters may have wallets hit at any time by the devs. Workaround: Have the original owner of the character petition himself for ISK buying, and include the fact of the petition and its results with the auction post. That way, the winner of the auction can see that the character is clean of that, at least. EDIT: To those hassling the GM about logging items, remember that losing ships/items are events. If your ship goes poof due to desynch, the logs will tell the same story your eyes did: the items ceased to exist. What caused the items to go poof is an event, and if it is not recognized as an error by the system then it will not be logged as such. If it is recorded as an error-free combat-related event, then of course the logs will show nothing unusual, even with perfect tracking of the item IDs. Originally by: game box Conceive a new life without boundaries, where murder, plunder, betrayal, and delusions of grandeur will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin.
Grace	Posted - 2007.11.30 07:54:00 - [230] Originally by: Angel DeMorphis Edited by: Angel DeMorphis on 02/11/2007 17:45:31 Originally by: Joss Sparq In case people have managed to keep missing it during the last two hundred something posts, it seems the OP never did anything malign and a GM has said they know this - they never tried to cheat - they never tried to buy ISK - they never knew the previous owner was involved in buying ISK until ISK including ISK they had since earned was removed - so they lost their own ISK while being punished - for something they had nothing to do with - clear? The only malign thing the OP did was whine about being given a free character that she'd have to pay 40 Million to use. They didn't lose their own ISK at all. The end effect was not CCP stealing from her account, only her receiving a free character that happened to have a negative balance. Please learn to read the OP carefully before you respond. ISK that was made legitimately by her was transfered to this new character, and all that was taken away, leaving a hole of 41 mill.

goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2007.11.30 07:58:00 - [231] Edited by: goodby4u on 30/11/2007 07:58:42 Next time keep in mind when you receive a char you also receive it's demons... Sorry but CCP was in the right.


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