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Learning skills DO suck

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Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:16:00 - [91] Originally by: Cpt Branko Learning skills are a bloody stupid time sink, and the jerks who say 'train adv. learnings to IV and then normal learnings to V before training anything' are saying 'pay for the game for a month, then start playing it', which is bloody damn stupid. hmm a time sink.. how on earth did you arrive at that conclusion? First off, they are completely optional, so if you sink your time into them then that is your own decision. I started this character with around 100k SP, which was about as high as you could go. the characters you create now starts with up to 800k SP, with some basic learning skills trained, and a lot of support skills. Why is that not good enough. I mean <100k SP was good enough for everyone else before. And now you have it even better. and you're complaining? secondly. the entire skill system in this game is a time sink, just like grinding in conventional mmo's. If anything learning skills are an "anti-timesink" as they make your skills faster. I can't stress enough that they are optional though. if you only plan to play for a ew months, then don't bother training them. Heck, don't even bother playing the game, its not very much fun in the first few weeks anyway. EVE is a long-term game, and should be a long-term game.
Leroy Payne	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:19:00 - [92] in other news: i spoke to jesus today.
Jhinn Berkut	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:22:00 - [93] Originally by: Freya Runestone Originally by: Cpt Branko Learning skills are a bloody stupid time sink, and the jerks who say 'train adv. learnings to IV and then normal learnings to V before training anything' are saying 'pay for the game for a month, then start playing it', which is bloody damn stupid. hmm a time sink.. how on earth did you arrive at that conclusion? First off, they are completely optional, so if you sink your time into them then that is your own decision. I started this character with around 100k SP, which was about as high as you could go. the characters you create now starts with up to 800k SP, with some basic learning skills trained, and a lot of support skills. Why is that not good enough. I mean <100k SP was good enough for everyone else before. And now you have it even better. and you're complaining? secondly. the entire skill system in this game is a time sink, just like grinding in conventional mmo's. If anything learning skills are an "anti-timesink" as they make your skills faster. I can't stress enough that they are optional though. if you only plan to play for a ew months, then don't bother training them. Heck, don't even bother playing the game, its not very much fun in the first few weeks anyway. EVE is a long-term game, and should be a long-term game. The heart of EVE is a PvP game. The fact that fundamentally, no new player can catch a long time players SPs, and in fact the new player cannot even match the long time players rate of SP acquisition is a problem. It isn't a terrible problem, and EVE does a good job of making it so the short time player can contribute, but this idea that somehow the fact that player A has played 1 year longer than player B means that player A just has some kind of innate right to stomp the crap out of player A irrespective of their actual skill at the game is rather spurious, and does not work in the long run, since eventually nobody will ever come into the game and it will not grow. Now, CCP knows this, and that is why the starting SPs will continue to go up over time. The learning skills probably seemed like a good idea at some point, but they actually exacerbate this problem, quite badly. I am certain that if they could do so, CCP would go back in time and never put them in the game to begin with. They add nothing but time, and not even time to get more skills, but time to get so that your rate of acquisition can be completive. Ditching learning skills will not take anything away from anyone - all it will do is slightly lessen that already massive advantage enjoyed by longer term players.
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:25:00 - [94] Replying to the opening post on this thread i think that giving 200000 skill points to every pilot in the game may help. 200k to me would make very little difference but would be a great advantage to a newer player. I would advise taking the new pilot starting skill points from 800k to 1 mill. www.eve-players.com
Tractormech Caldari the evil ones	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:28:00 - [95] Edited by: Tractormech on 30/11/2007 22:34:28 New players are already given far more than enough. When I started I remember being excited just to get in a cruiser, it was my main ship for a quite a long time. Now new players are in battleships within a couple weeks. New players can't catchup? Wrong. Its called specialization. You can only go so far in a certain class of ship. The older player will just be able to use quite a number of ships. As said before, its a good filter. If you can't handle learning skills then you won't be able to handle the rest of the game. Might aswell quit now.
Jhinn Berkut	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:30:00 - [96] Originally by: Jhinn Berkut Ditching learning skills will not take anything away from anyone - all it will do is slightly lessen that already massive advantage enjoyed by longer term players. This si not entirely accurate. Ditching learning skills won't lessen the advantage older players have, it will only lessen the RATE that the older players advantage is increasing over newer players. It isn't even a question of "catching up" which is impossible, it is only a question of slowing down the increasing gap.
Jhinn Berkut	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:33:00 - [97] Originally by: Tractormech New players are already given far more than enough. When I started I remember being excited just to get in a cruiser, it was my main ship for a quite a long time. Now new players are in battleships within a couple weeks. Do they beat you in those two week old battleships? If they do, your problems have nothing to do with newb players getting too many skill points. And as a sorta newb player...how in the hell does a new player even afford a battleship within a couple weeks, much less actually know what to do with one? Man, if all that separates you in skill with a two week old player is a couple hundred thousand skill points...well, that says more about you than it does about them. You should practice or something.
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:37:00 - [98] I forgot to mention that I am very happy with the learning skills the way they are at the moment. Learning skills and correct skill management is a core part of an eve pilotÆs game and undermining this would be detrimental to everyone. www.eve-players.com
Tractormech Caldari the evil ones	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:39:00 - [99] Quote: Do they beat you in those two week old battleships? If they do, your problems have nothing to do with newb players getting too many skill points. At no point did I say i would ever be worried about said newb in said battleship. If anything it makes a nice explosion. Perhaps if this forum was not so full of people trying to look for random insults to make themselves feel superior, as opposed to reasonable discussion these forums wouldn't be going so horribly downhill as they have lately. But for the purposes of PVE it definately does make a difference. New players are able to earn isk at a greatly accelerated rate than before. I'm just pointing out the difference between now and then. They already have a lot more of the game open to them while they do their learning skills, and a chance to earn a good income when they do them. Not so much before while just in a cruiser. So there isn't anything to complain about.
puff freak	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:50:00 - [100] Originally by: Freya Runestone Edited by: Freya Runestone on 30/11/2007 22:20:29 Originally by: Cpt Branko Learning skills are a bloody stupid time sink, and the jerks who say 'train adv. learnings to IV and then normal learnings to V before training anything' are saying 'pay for the game for a month, then start playing it', which is bloody damn stupid. hmm a time sink.. how on earth did you arrive at that conclusion? First off, they are completely optional, so if you sink your time into them then that is your own decision. exactly! learning skills are optional. if you spend time doing them then you deserve additional attribute points for doing them. i wish new players and player who dont want to invest the time would stop wanting everything so damned easy! I LOVE LEARNING SKILLS they are part of what makes eve have depth. DO NOT REMOVE THEM!

Swift Wind 6rasshopper Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:51:00 - [101] Edited by: Swift Wind on 30/11/2007 22:51:37 Originally by: Jhinn Berkut lots of stuff... Ok let me ask you a question? Why should you get a bigger advantage than I got? As a slightly under 2yo player i got screwed, I am nowhere near the higher skilled players and the newer players have months cut off their training times. Why should I care that you (or any new player) thinks progression is slow, when for your "new player expirence" dosent include months of HORRID BOREDOM that I had. You think it is bad now? Trust me, us "middle aged" players have it the worst, and do you hear us ***ing that we wont catch up to the "vets"? As someone stated eairler use evemon, it will tell you when training them is worth it. Me and my Bro, both at 6 months old (most likely with less SP than you started with) had our own POS in 0.0, and were "harassing" the locals, so don't tell me your handicapped from playing... Anywhere, Anytime.**
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:52:00 - [102] how bout doing older players a favor while we at it i get the main skill to fly maurauders train maurauder 1 up and it fill in all the secondary skills etc that you need for it that you skipped :P. heck this should go for all older players and t2 ships. if noobs get automatic max learning skills i think this is fair also.
Leroy Payne	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:52:00 - [103] SCOOP: Eve has nothing to do with fairness. You started later than Chribba. Boohoo, get over it
Abye Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:54:00 - [104] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Abye Originally by: Malcanis To clarify: nobody's saying that you must ONLY train learnings first. (or they shouldn't be... that's just stupid unless you're starting your 4th alt or something) Have a look yourself at all the "advice" given out and tell me what impression a new player gets. If people only get advice from one source and can't make their own decisions.... ...they should put an app in to Snigg? Nah, they should go to SMASH I didn't point out to a single source ___ CCP Garthagk: "And that is why GMs aren't DEVs"
Terminus adacai Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:59:00 - [105] /signed a BIG FAT NO!! I was once a new player as well. I chose to work on learning skills for the first couple of weeks while learning the game and deciding what path my charatoon would take. Hell OP, while were at it, why not make them Hulk ready and make that their starting ship? Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:03:00 - [106] The heart of EVE is a PvP game. The fact that fundamentally, no new player can catch a long time players SPs, and in fact the new player cannot even match the long time players rate of SP acquisition is a problem. It isn't a terrible problem, and EVE does a good job of making it so the short time player can contribute, but this idea that somehow the fact that player A has played 1 year longer than player B means that player A just has some kind of innate right to stomp the crap out of player A irrespective of their actual skill at the game is rather spurious, and does not work in the long run, since eventually nobody will ever come into the game and it will not grow. Now, CCP knows this, and that is why the starting SPs will continue to go up over time. The learning skills probably seemed like a good idea at some point, but they actually exacerbate this problem, quite badly. I am certain that if they could do so, CCP would go back in time and never put them in the game to begin with. They add nothing but time, and not even time to get more skills, but time to get so that your rate of acquisition can be completive. Ditching learning skills will not take anything away from anyone - all it will do is slightly lessen that already massive advantage enjoyed by longer term players. There wouldn't be PvP if there wasn't PvE, thats a fact. no matter how you look at it. the miners and producers and mission runners provide you with the toys to go blow up. It's a game balanced between PvE and PvP, where both are dependant on the other. I assume you mean player A stomps player B, not A stomps A. which is what you wrote. Playing for longer doesn't mean you're X amount better. if you compare 1 guy with all lv IV skills and one with all lv V skills, the one with lv V will be better, but he will have spent twice as long training for it, than the lv IV pilot will have spent, around 5% better than the IV pilot (most skills give around 5% bonuses per level) On top of that, a specialized polit who doesn't have, fx. a mission runner ship+fittings, other racial ships, or other role's skills trained will reach the same effectiveness as the pilot who went for the jack of all trades SP split. dumping Learning skills will take away something away, not from the people, but from the game. EVE is hard, EVE is harsh, and it can make you furious or make you happy. taking learning skills away is the first step on the way to making the game easier as a whole, taking away difficulty decreases the mental reward that you get after completing a task, it'll end up being a boring game, it might make it more popular, but it'll make it a worse game overall. IF this is really the way you feel, i have to ask, why are you playing EVE, and not WOW? Thats not a joke either, it's a serious question. You're asking for a change in a very defining part of the game. EVE is a long term game, and it's one of the only ones. EVE rewards planning, strategy and knowledge, It's a much more satisfying game to achieve something in. By miles. Compared to other games where there exists such a thing as "endgame" EVE is a player-driven ever-changing virtual universe, that's the defining point of EVE, and at least I think thats the reason most people enjoy it.
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:08:00 - [107] yea i am sick of these threads seriously, waaa we want +10 learning skills, grow up its called choice, you can choose to never train them up if you do not want to, you can choose to train them up whenever you feel like it or you can choose to train them from the get go and forgo all else. hello kitty online and wow is waiting for you if you cant handle training learning skills smartly, and using your brain period.
Sirtak	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:12:00 - [108] What's up with the hating for learning? I've been playing for a couple of weeks now, got every learning skill (besides advanced charisma) at 4, or nearly there, while now also being able to fly a retriever and an omen rather effectively. Just have to find a balance.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:25:00 - [109] Originally by: Sirtak What's up with the hating for learning? I've been playing for a couple of weeks now, got every learning skill (besides advanced charisma) at 4, or nearly there, while now also being able to fly a retriever and an omen rather effectively. Just have to find a balance. Basically it's a bunch of older players who want to skill up their alts for R&D farming faster. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:26:00 - [110] Originally by: Jhinn Berkut Skills are a time sink You get a gold star. You can have another if you can tell us what kind of sink buying skills is? Extra credit if you spot the pattern here. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.

Trauts Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:28:00 - [111] 1) Adjust all base attributes by +10 2) Change learning skills into ambulation skills (Bar Management, Advanced Bar Management) Result: A) New players are happy because they dont have to train learning skills (I agree that they are a waste of time) B) Old players (who think new players should suffer just because they did) dont get shafted because now they dont have to train the skills that are sure to come with ambulation.
Kuzya Morozov Gallente Organized Combat Consortium	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:44:00 - [112] I don't know if you should take out learning skills, but I had 2 friends just try EVE and one quit because it was too complicated, the other one quit because it took took too long to do anything with the useful skills and upon learning what he'd have to go through he just quit. It made me sad.
Fanjita	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:56:00 - [113] Originally by: Varshyll Now Trinity is nearly out, it is time to help the many new players a little. CCP did a great job one year ago, by increasing the amount of SP. But I think that it's not enough. Those *** learning skills are still a pain in the ***. Mostly new players give up because of this painfull, long and costly step, while you do not see any improve on you character's ability. It's already pretty hard to start with this game, so I suggest to increase the starting SP to 2M, with at least all basic learning to 4. (and maybe 2-3 adv learning to 1-2) I'm sure that with Trinity's new graphics, a lot of potential players might start to join us, let's help them. CCP will earn a lot of $$$ and will be able to create a nice Vampire MMO !!! \o/ PS : I do NOT need another alt :p PS2 : plz no "OMG it was hard for me, it has to be hard for them" whining answer. You dont have to train them you have a choice.
respectmathouritaz	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:59:00 - [114] dont train them then training anything past level 3 takes months to pay off so just dont train them and shutup expecting everyone to have them maxed for free is not a good idea ccp increased newb characters to 800k and all it did is give more useful alts to the people who play the game with multiple accounts already newbs will have fun killing a 0.9 rat with a civilian blaster
IamBen Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:00:00 - [115] having to decide between learning and other skills is one of key points of eve. Finding that balance shouldnt be taken away. Plus, now that you dont need lvl 5 on the base skills anymore, its alot easier than it used to be to quickly get good attributes.
Mon eemakar	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:09:00 - [116] Edited by: Mon eemakar on 01/12/2007 01:13:15 I'm new to this game so I'll give it to you from my perspective. The problem is actually with the way skill are learned. I love reading these forums and ppl acting as though eve is so much more hardcore-what a joke!!! I could get a tens of millions of SP character over a year by logging on to click another skill and doing just enough grinding to get the ISK to buy a new skills. The amount of actual gametime required would be nothing comparded to that required to level a character to 70 and run end game raids for decent gear. You might say well gtting the SP is more like getting the level and gtting the ISK is mor like getting the gear/gold u need. Well, fair enuff-within the EULA of this game i can make a tens of milions of SP character with barely ne actual played time and then sell GTC for ISK to buy my ships/skills-done and definitely not hardcore. Within WOW EULA you would need at least 2 months actual played time to get a well geared level 70. So to address the OP -essentially this game does not encourage new players to actually start playing the game for a few months after buying it. I am a hardcore gamer and this gam does not reward the time that I'm willing to put in like other games do. I am better to log on train skill toons on two accounts and play another game like wow that rewards time played until I have the skils necessary to make serious money. Obviously CCP will no change the skills training system so that it rewards played time so new players will always find the 1st few month of Eve rather pointless. Interestingly-WOW has implemented sytem that allows for both over the last few months-with an arena system that allows you to get gear over time by giving you points each week and the PVE system which allows you to get gear based on time played-so you could log on for an hour a week and end up with good gear over a long period of time or play harcore for a few weeks PVE and get good gear faster. If at first you don't succeed....don't try skydiving.
freakbacca	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:10:00 - [117] Originally by: Kuzya Morozov I don't know if you should take out learning skills, but I had 2 friends just try EVE and one quit because it was too complicated, the other one quit because it took took too long to do anything with the useful skills and upon learning what he'd have to go through he just quit. It made me sad. tell them to get an X-BOX. this game is no arcade game..
Mon eemakar	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:15:00 - [118] i agree with the posts that say ppl should be prepared to put in the effort but unfortunately Eve rewards you for how long you hav owned the game rather than how much you play it (or how much effort you're willing to put in). If at first you don't succeed....don't try skydiving.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:24:00 - [119] EVE is full of legendary traps for mathematically-challenged and/or economically-challenged people. We love those traps, as much as we love those specific people that these specific traps were designed for. Hands off our traps ! Translation : ffs, leave the learning skills alone, GB2school and get Calculus and Economics 101, n00b. C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
freakbacca	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:24:00 - [120] Originally by: Mon eemakar Edited by: Mon eemakar on 01/12/2007 01:15:33 i agree with the posts that say ppl should be prepared to put in the effort but unfortunately Eve rewards you for how long you have owned the game rather than how much you play it (or how much effort you're willing to put in). that's the way this game was made. No Grinding. aren't there enough grind games already? if eve were to invalidate anything i've invested my time doing to a large enough extent, then i'd quit. star wars galaxies did that, and i quit that and never looked back. this may be a game however theres a lot of players that spend a huge amount of time, and do take the game seriously. It's not fair to just remove whole banks of time that we've spent money and time perfecting.



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