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Learning skills DO suck

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Varshyll	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:34:00 - [1] Now Trinity is nearly out, it is time to help the many new players a little. CCP did a great job one year ago, by increasing the amount of SP. But I think that it's not enough. Those *** learning skills are still a pain in the ***. Mostly new players give up because of this painfull, long and costly step, while you do not see any improve on you character's ability. It's already pretty hard to start with this game, so I suggest to increase the starting SP to 2M, with at least all basic learning to 4. (and maybe 2-3 adv learning to 1-2) I'm sure that with Trinity's new graphics, a lot of potential players might start to join us, let's help them. CCP will earn a lot of $$$ and will be able to create a nice Vampire MMO !!! \o/ PS : I do NOT need another alt :p PS2 : plz no "OMG it was hard for me, it has to be hard for them" whining answer.
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:36:00 - [2] Bottom line, if you cant find the right balance between training the learning skills and training skills that actually make you enjoy the game, you have failed.
Chris Supernova Gallente Xtraders	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:37:00 - [3] Would you like them to give you 1 billion ISK aswell when you start? Common get serious.
Nicholas Barker MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:38:00 - [4] you've got it easy, you used to have to train the basic learning skills to 5 before you could begin training the SOCT learning skills. ---
Jaikar Isillia The Vinlanders SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:40:00 - [5] I think other players have put it right in the terms of learning skills being the "WoW Deflector shield".
Glassback Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:44:00 - [6] No. The fact that the game is niche, difficult, complex, has a long learning curve, takes effort etc etc is what it's all about. If you want easy and disposable then chose something else. G. BH Kharnubis > Need more people against the MC meanies
Triksterism Gallente Image Not Found	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:46:00 - [7] Originally by: Jaikar Isillia I think other players have put it right in the terms of learning skills being the "WoW Deflector shield". Nice :) Gave me a chuckle ----------------------------------- *CCP Please update my portrait on the website/forums :D*
Jaikar Isillia The Vinlanders SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:48:00 - [8] Originally by: Triksterism Originally by: Jaikar Isillia I think other players have put it right in the terms of learning skills being the "WoW Deflector shield". Nice :) Gave me a chuckle Then my day is complete.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Chris Supernova Would you like them to give you 1 billion ISK aswell when you start? Common get serious. The tutorial and first mission does give 1 million isk in asset if you count the ships and stuff given to you. -- random eve-related content --
Chris Supernova Gallente Xtraders	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:58:00 - [10] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Originally by: Chris Supernova Would you like them to give you 1 billion ISK aswell when you start? Common get serious. The tutorial and first mission does give 1 million isk in asset if you count the ships and stuff given to you. Read again what you quoted.
Firkragg Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:59:00 - [11] Only if i get free 1.2mill SP too.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:06:00 - [12] Originally by: Jaikar Isillia I think other players have put it right in the terms of learning skills being the "WoW Deflector shield". You win EvE fourms today. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Nianda SeCann	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:07:00 - [13] Sorry but I came to this game because of things like the learning skills, eve isn't WoW and most ppls are all the more happier for this. If I had wanted a game where i could be contending within a few months I would have gone to either WoW/LoTRO ( I,ve tryed them, and all the easier start-up means is that you'll reach the c#ap grind quicker). Other option open is to play Freelancer or X3 on easy. Eve was never meant to be easy to play and I hope that it stays this way. Meant more to me when I finaly jumpped into the ship I wanted
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:08:00 - [14] Originally by: Varshyll Now Trinity is nearly out, it is time to help the many new players a little. CCP did a great job one year ago, by increasing the amount of SP. But I think that it's not enough. Those *** learning skills are still a pain in the ***. Mostly new players give up because of this painfull, long and costly step, while you do not see any improve on you character's ability. It's already pretty hard to start with this game, so I suggest to increase the starting SP to 2M, with at least all basic learning to 4. (and maybe 2-3 adv learning to 1-2) I'm sure that with Trinity's new graphics, a lot of potential players might start to join us, let's help them. CCP will earn a lot of $$$ and will be able to create a nice Vampire MMO !!! \o/ PS : I do NOT need another alt :p PS2 : plz no "OMG it was hard for me, it has to be hard for them" whining answer. CCP should just start everyone at level 70 with an epic set. Then they can quit stright away because they've won EvE endgame. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
GruFF83 V i r u s	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:09:00 - [15] you dont have to do your learning skills all at once.... oobviously it pays off in the long run. im a 2 year old toon ann ive still not completed all my learning to lvl 5 - i think i only have ~2.5 mil in learning but i still manage.
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:10:00 - [16] Originally by: Varshyll Now Trinity is nearly out, it is time to help the many new players a little. CCP did a great job one year ago, by increasing the amount of SP. But I think that it's not enough. Those *** learning skills are still a pain in the ***. Mostly new players give up because of this painfull, long and costly step, while you do not see any improve on you character's ability. It's already pretty hard to start with this game, so I suggest to increase the starting SP to 2M, with at least all basic learning to 4. (and maybe 2-3 adv learning to 1-2) I'm sure that with Trinity's new graphics, a lot of potential players might start to join us, let's help them. CCP will earn a lot of $$$ and will be able to create a nice Vampire MMO !!! \o/ PS : I do NOT need another alt :p PS2 : plz no "OMG it was hard for me, it has to be hard for them" whining answer. NO, but changing the effect of learning skills and giving every char in game +10 to all attri would be fine
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:11:00 - [17] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Jaikar Isillia I think other players have put it right in the terms of learning skills being the "WoW Deflector shield". You win EvE fourms today. Hey yeah! Let's get rid of ALL new players, why didn't I think of that?! -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:13:00 - [18] Originally by: Varshyll Now Trinity is nearly out, it is time to help the many new players a little. CCP did a great job one year ago, by increasing the amount of SP. But I think that it's not enough. Those *** learning skills are still a pain in the *. It's better for those players to give up and go elsewhere than to ruin the experience for the rest of us. Eve is not supposed to be a fast-paced game where all the toys are available to any yahoo willing to play the game 23/7 for a week. Eve is supposed to be a slow-paced game where people make plans and get enjoyment from watching those plans come to fruition. The instant gratification brigade have enough alternatives to play. Let them play those and get bored within a month. Eve's attraction is that you play it for the long haul. I don't want to rush it because I play it for the journey not for the toys. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.**
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:13:00 - [19] Originally by: Jaikar Isillia I think other players have put it right in the terms of learning skills being the "WoW Deflector shield". Yup. That and the risk/consequences of random gankage. Keep those dweebs out. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Nianda SeCann Sorry but I came to this game because of things like the learning skills, eve isn't WoW and most ppls are all the more happier for this. If I had wanted a game where i could be contending within a few months I would have gone to either WoW/LoTRO ( I,ve tryed them, and all the easier start-up means is that you'll reach the c#ap grind quicker). Other option open is to play Freelancer or X3 on easy. Eve was never meant to be easy to play and I hope that it stays this way. Meant more to me when I finaly jumpped into the ship I wanted i have been in this game a long time now and i have passed the 25mill sp a good time back now, and i still think that the learning skills is nothing but a killer for newer players. TRUST ME! wow players will not invade eve because you remove the learning skills you damn little game racial wow haters ;) :P but it will let a lot of people that could be a good diversity to the game join up and help the fun in game for all of us.
poooooooobritaltt	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:15:00 - [21] Originally by: Varshyll Now Trinity is nearly out, it is time to help the many new players a little. CCP did a great job one year ago, by increasing the amount of SP. But I think that it's not enough. Those *** learning skills are still a pain in the ***. Mostly new players give up because of this painfull, long and costly step, while you do not see any improve on you character's ability. It's already pretty hard to start with this game, so I suggest to increase the starting SP to 2M, with at least all basic learning to 4. (and maybe 2-3 adv learning to 1-2) I'm sure that with Trinity's new graphics, a lot of potential players might start to join us, let's help them. CCP will earn a lot of $$$ and will be able to create a nice Vampire MMO !!! \o/ PS : I do NOT need another alt :p PS2 : plz no "OMG it was hard for me, it has to be hard for them" whining answer. this has to be a troll since it would kill the game and would make the game supporting old players leave without actually bringing any newbies in
Darina Rea Naqam	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:16:00 - [22] Originally by: Glassback No. The fact that the game is niche, difficult, complex, has a long learning curve, takes effort etc etc is what it's all about. If you want easy and disposable then chose something else. G. It has a fairly steep learning curve.. not a very long one. Picking a skill to train and then logging on and off to change isn't very difficult either. Thanks to insurances most ships are simply disposable (even battleships). It also isn't that difficult or complex after you have done the learning curve. Fitting a ship after one month of play doesn't change radically even after 4 years of play even though the ships and the modules you use might change with time (going from tech 1 to tech2 and from frigates to battleships). I was pretty annoyed with learning skills while I had to do them, but only because I had to choose between training something usefull and directly affecting the gameplay (like energy management) and something that didn't directly give me anything, but only shorten the time of those slightly. _________ Time is on our side.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:18:00 - [23] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 30/11/2007 14:19:59 Originally by: Chris Supernova The tutorial and first mission does give 1 million isk in asset if you count the ships and stuff given to you. Read again what you quoted. Same to you... new player do start the game by making the tutorial, which is semi-instanced, so from a technical point of view, as long as you do it, you start the real game with 1 million in assets and isk. Well, it's probably because I don't consider the tutorial to be part of the game. I mean, there is no risk, no challenge, no other people in it... Of course, if you don't do the tutorial, you start with nothing, but if you do, you're probably an alt that will get his millions from the main, an idiot, which is another problem, or someone that already has friends in the game to explain how it works (that often will give you pocket money to start anyway). Back on topic, the learning don't really "slightly" reduce training time. Average starting stats are something like 6 or 7, getting them to 4/3 with learning skills takes a week, which means that with just a week of learning skills, you've reduced your training time by nearly half. Which is a significant amount... -- random eve-related content --
Polcor Rodal Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:19:00 - [24] Yeah, more SP at the start, higher attributes, please let us create Insta-Covops alts whenever we need one, or an instant Frig ganker, please...gimme. Pol If in danger, or in doubt, run in cricles, scream and shout
Esteban Brandei	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:19:00 - [25] Damned where is my mothership ? What I don't starts with all the skill maxed a fleet of capital/mothership and 1 trillion isk ? Come on guys the newx players already got a mega boost allowing them to start with T2 stuffs.... Don't you remember all the players who started with 40K SP 2000 ISK and a rookie ship ? you are spitting in their face claiming more SP/stuff for new character.
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:21:00 - [26] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Jaikar Isillia I think other players have put it right in the terms of learning skills being the "WoW Deflector shield". You win EvE fourms today. Hey yeah! Let's get rid of ALL new players, why didn't I think of that?! You, agreeing with a stupid idea....why am i not surprised? _____________________ Originally by: Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
Chris Supernova Gallente Xtraders	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:24:00 - [27] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 30/11/2007 14:19:59 Originally by: Chris Supernova The tutorial and first mission does give 1 million isk in asset if you count the ships and stuff given to you. Read again what you quoted. Same to you... new player do start the game by making the tutorial, which is semi-instanced, so from a technical point of view, as long as you do it, you start the real game with 1 million in assets and isk. Stop being a smartass , open your eyes and read. I wrote 1 billion ISK not 1 million.
Amaron Ghant Caldari Matsuko Industries	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Buyerr Originally by: Nianda SeCann Sorry but I came to this game because of things like the learning skills, eve isn't WoW and most ppls are all the more happier for this. If I had wanted a game where i could be contending within a few months I would have gone to either WoW/LoTRO ( I,ve tryed them, and all the easier start-up means is that you'll reach the c#ap grind quicker). Other option open is to play Freelancer or X3 on easy. Eve was never meant to be easy to play and I hope that it stays this way. Meant more to me when I finaly jumpped into the ship I wanted i have been in this game a long time now and i have passed the 25mill sp a good time back now, and i still think that the learning skills is nothing but a killer for newer players. TRUST ME! wow players will not invade eve because you remove the learning skills you damn little game racial wow haters ;) :P but it will let a lot of people that could be a good diversity to the game join up and help the fun in game for all of us. 25 mill? Not been playing that long then. The skill system (and the skillpoints available to new players) is fine as is. It acts as a filter. Those with patience stay and those with the attention span of a gnat leave.
Barimen	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:29:00 - [29] No need to increase the SP given at start, 1m sp or thereabouts is over ten times what I got when I started. But that being said, learning skills are dull and a possibility to move the SP you get at start around a bit may not be a bad idea, something like half of that 1m SP goes into learning wich I think should put you somewere in the 4/3 area in learning skills, not counting charisma. It is ok to have a wow deflector, no need to make it T2 though. CCP is after all a company and allthough they seem more tuned to their players wishes then most other MMO companies it is a money game for them, as long as any changes does not affect the old players I see no harm in this, more people in a game like EVE is a win win. If you like them, invite them, if not, shoot them.. ;) Admittedly, the EVE servers seems to have started to hit its limits recently, got my first login queue for the first time the other day. Only about one minute but still, the game is growing rapidly.
RaTTuS BIG Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:30:00 - [30] they may suck - but they get +1 implants from the off [or very nearly] also you don't have to train them - and you cirtainly dont have to train them to 5/5 get them to 4 is dead easy - and then if you've made 5Mil you can get an advanced one .. /me sighs -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve [Now Verified] & Recruiting
Swift Wind 6rasshopper Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:39:00 - [31] Edited by: Swift Wind on 30/11/2007 14:45:13 Give me a break.... I started this game with LESS than 40k SP... That was less than 2 years ago, you new players already have it made... Anywhere, Anytime.
Kathryn Dougans B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:46:00 - [32] I could quote myself, but I'm not going to. New players have several things available to allow them to quickly and cheaply train relevant skills, enough to have fun and try things out to decide if EVE is something they want to stick with. If Eve is something they want to stick with, then they would have the patience to train learning skills. If it's not, then so what?
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:51:00 - [33] Learning skills are a bloody stupid time sink, and the jerks who say 'train adv. learnings to IV and then normal learnings to V before training anything' are saying 'pay for the game for a month, then start playing it', which is bloody damn stupid. Rifters!
Varshyll	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:54:00 - [34] Originally by: Nicholas Barker you've got it easy, you used to have to train the basic learning skills to 5 before you could begin training the SOCT learning skills. My adv. learning skills are completed for about 18 months.... This is no whining thread, just a suggestion to improve the new players's experience.... and I hope this will increase the number of EVE subscrivers. Originally by: Swift Wind Edited by: Swift Wind on 30/11/2007 14:45:13 Give me a break.... I started this game with LESS than 40k SP... That was less than 2 years ago, you new players already have it made... Cry me a river.... (T-T) New players will never be able to fulfill the sp gap with a 2 year char. Originally by: Buyerr Originally by: Nianda SeCann Sorry but I came to this game because of things like the learning skills, eve isn't WoW and most ppls are all the more happier for this. If I had wanted a game where i could be contending within a few months I would have gone to either WoW/LoTRO ( I,ve tryed them, and all the easier start-up means is that you'll reach the c#ap grind quicker). Other option open is to play Freelancer or X3 on easy. Eve was never meant to be easy to play and I hope that it stays this way. Meant more to me when I finaly jumpped into the ship I wanted i have been in this game a long time now and i have passed the 25mill sp a good time back now, and i still think that the learning skills is nothing but a killer for newer players. TRUST ME! wow players will not invade eve because you remove the learning skills you damn little game racial wow haters ;) :P but it will let a lot of people that could be a good diversity to the game join up and help the fun in game for all of us. <3
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:55:00 - [35] Originally by: Varshyll PS2 : plz no "OMG it was hard for me, it has to be hard for them" whining answer. So you dont want anyone to disagree with you...thats not how it works. _____________________ Originally by: Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
Jupiter Sun	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:56:00 - [36] it's FINE as it is this char started 7 days ago. no outside help at all. they now have full +3's (ok, +1 char :D), 2 advanced learning skillbooks, 3% hardwirings, 10 million isk in the wallet, good named/tech 2 modules, a caracal, moa, osprey, a few frigates.... 7 days. a week, if you like. the OP must be trolling.
Maximillian Dragonard	Posted - 2007.11.30 15:00:00 - [37] Yet another thread on this topic?? Face facts, learning skills are here to stay. CCP isn't about to radically alter the game just to appease the "I want it now" crowd. This game is all about *choices* If you choose to *invest* the time in learning skills, you benefit long term. If you choose not to, you pay a price. Hmmm..... ya know, kinda like if you choose to continue your education in r/l you benefit, if not you pay a price.. These threads are really getting old
Jupiter Sun	Posted - 2007.11.30 15:17:00 - [38] Originally by: Maximillian Dragonard Hmmm..... ya know, kinda like if you choose to continue your education in r/l you benefit, if not you pay a price.. that should be the other way round ;o)
Xavianum	Posted - 2007.11.30 15:23:00 - [39] Originally by: Cpt Branko Learning skills are a bloody stupid time sink, and the jerks who say 'train adv. learnings to IV and then normal learnings to V before training anything' are saying 'pay for the game for a month, then start playing it', which is bloody damn stupid. It's easy to say something like this, but a lot harder to back it up. I've been playing exactly one month (started 10/31) and I've actually been 'playing' it as you say, not just 'paying' for it. I've purchased 4/5 adv. learning skill books, though I've only used two of them so far. I've trained my learning skills, but I've also trained a large number of other skills. I trained some basic skills like navigation, engineering, electronics, salvaging, etc. that have helped me make money and better fit my ships. Eventually my learning skills will be complete (well, 4/5 basic and adv. except charisma) and then I will be able to train more advanced skills as I see fit. I will, as it turns out, be able to afford these skills, and also be able to afford the toys they allow me to use. I will be training battlecruisers soon, along with medium projectile weapons and when I do, guess what? I'll actually have enough isk to fully outfit the thing. And to be honest, I don't spend all that much time playing the game. I just started running level 2 missions (in my rifter, which works great by the way) and I feel I have the skills and the isk to jump into pvp very soon. Anyhow, my point is that to do all this took a bit of planning and a bit of actually playing the game. In between all of my learning skills I have trained many others skills. As many people will say, you have to find a good balance between training learning skills and other skills. If you can't do that, this game isn't for you. Just because you have to plan for the long-term doesn't mean you can't have fun in the short-term.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.30 15:29:00 - [40] Originally by: Xavianum lots of stuff You know that if you did train for learning skills for a week at start, and didn't trained it to 4/3 (I suppose) in three weeks with other skills, you would already be in your BC as we speak ? Well, properly flying them requires a bit more time anyway. More like months. -- random eve-related content --
Queen Killerz	Posted - 2007.11.30 15:38:00 - [41] Originally by: Swift Wind Edited by: Swift Wind on 30/11/2007 14:45:13 Give me a break.... I started this game with LESS than 40k SP... That was less than 2 years ago, you new players already have it made... LOL Yeah I remember that / before kali Patch LOL - in few days your over a million and ready to fight
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.30 15:43:00 - [42] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 30/11/2007 15:44:34 Originally by: Varshyll PS2 : plz no "OMG it was hard for me, it has to be hard for them" whining answer. Then how about this, it was easy for me, and now it's even easier for them, so STFU. That work for you? Originally by: Varshyll Mostly new players give up because of this painfull, long and costly step, while you do not see any improve on you character's ability. PROTIP: They improve your character's ability to learn. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.11.30 15:44:00 - [43] Fail Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Xavianum	Posted - 2007.11.30 15:46:00 - [44] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Originally by: Xavianum lots of stuff You know that if you did train for learning skills for a week at start, and didn't trained it to 4/3 (I suppose) in three weeks with other skills, you would already be in your BC as we speak ? Well, properly flying them requires a bit more time anyway. More like months. Two whole weeks sooner? I don't really care, I still only need my rifter for the mission levels I'm running. Besides, I think you completely missed the whole point of my post.
shortattenionsp	Posted - 2007.11.30 15:48:00 - [45] People that train learning skills to 5 normal / 4 advanced before doing anything are peope who are training alts that already have main that they play. No one wants to spend the first month paying for the game without progressing, its a bad diea to suggest this as a requirement to new players, it will only put them off. The key is to get learning skills slowly over time as you require them, rather than in big chunks like an alt which you're not going to play for 6 months. Makes me chuckle when people say new players have it made though. Start and new character and see how you feel. Yes they have 800k starting skills, but 512k of that is in two lvl 5 skills, with many of the basics missing. New characters would be much better with a lot more level 3 / 4 skills spread out, but thats another post. Yes learning skills are a ****ter, but they're in the game and they're not gonna go away, so just get them as you feel you need them. Do the calculations to see how long they will take to pay off too. Personally i've avoided any lvl 5 learning skills, I'd much prefer to spend the training time on new skills I can enjoy, ie new modules or bonuses. When I reach the next plateau with my training i'll probably get them. Yup ni 6 months time i'll be losing sp i could have had if i'd spent time training learning skills. Its a game after all and not a second job, the point of playing is to have fun, so train your skills accordingly.
zilllii Squirrel Power	Posted - 2007.11.30 15:51:00 - [46] when the old ppl started out in 2003 there were no learning skills at all so suck it up and be happy that you are able to train them at all. or STFU and ask CCP to put in a blocker preventing new characters to train them for 2 years so it will be even.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:16:00 - [47] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 30/11/2007 16:16:35 Originally by: Xavianum Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Originally by: Xavianum lots of stuff You know that if you did train for learning skills for a week at start, and didn't trained it to 4/3 (I suppose) in three weeks with other skills, you would already be in your BC as we speak ? Well, properly flying them requires a bit more time anyway. More like months. Two whole weeks sooner? I don't really care, I still only need my rifter for the mission levels I'm running. Besides, I think you completely missed the whole point of my post. Miss a point ? In your post ? I admit it. I didn't see any. All I saw is a pretty story of someone that is already conquered by the game and doesn't care about wasting time in the game. Learning skills : one of the game mechanics in eve where being smart (and not much brain is needed to see how beneficial learning skills are) actually hinders your fun. Especially when you hesitate between playing or not. Seeing that being smart waste your fun during the trial ? I can understand how people are repelled by this, especially in addition of all else that you need to learn when starting the game. Learning skills need to go. -- random eve-related content --
dimaggio Gallente XTS	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:17:00 - [48] common ive wrked hard and taken me over a yr to get my avatars where they are, lot of blood and Isk too. So i dnt want some noob to start and have any advantage over me as they already do, if they got any more of an advantage, id have to become an evil noob hunter more than i am already. So keep it as it is.
Baron Erique Gallente Schrodinger's Renegades	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:26:00 - [49] Originally by: Varshyll Now Trinity is nearly out, it is time to help the many new players a little. Did you ever think that new players might not want or appreciate said help? I don't, and I've seen plenty of newbies in other threads who don't either. Originally by: Varshyll CCP did a great job one year ago, by increasing the amount of SP. But I think that it's not enough. Those *** learning skills are still a pain in the *. Mostly new players give up because of this painfull, long and costly step, while you do not see any improve on you character's ability. Except the ability to train other skills faster! Originally by:** Varshyll It's already pretty hard to start with this game... And that is the very reason I want to play this game. I WANT a challenge. I don't mind putting a little effort into something. Why do you want to take that away in order to please some kids with entitlement issues who'll probably quit anyway after they get podded once?
Willow Whisp Sadist Faction	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:26:00 - [50] Originally by: Andrue Eve's attraction is that you play it for the long haul. I don't want to rush it because I play it for the journey not for the toys. QFT -- Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes ^^ Woo hoo! Yellow Text!... wait... :(
DaveW Caldari South Park Development	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:29:00 - [51] Did you REALLY have to start another thread on Learning Skills...? --------------------------------------------------- "If you can't stand the heat..., stay out of the Kitchen."
Little Tigerlilly	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:36:00 - [52] Originally by: Varshyll Now Trinity is nearly out, it is time to help the many new players a little. CCP did a great job one year ago, by increasing the amount of SP. But I think that it's not enough. Those *** learning skills are still a pain in the ***. Mostly new players give up because of this painfull, long and costly step, while you do not see any improve on you character's ability. It's already pretty hard to start with this game, so I suggest to increase the starting SP to 2M, with at least all basic learning to 4. (and maybe 2-3 adv learning to 1-2) I'm sure that with Trinity's new graphics, a lot of potential players might start to join us, let's help them. I think it's a great idea to assist training the learning skills but I think it needs to be connected to missions that explain the benefits of them and speed players through those skills. Maybe have a set of missions at a school that award the skill books and bump their training up to level 4's in all the primary skills over time. Similar to how agent missions award implants, school missions award training in the primary learning skills up to level 4. The purpose would be to get new players trained up on learning skills while letting them still do combat and have fun. When I was training my char's learning skills in the beginning there was a lot of time wasted because I wasn't training combat skills and the enemies quickly became more than I could handle. It was temporary but for a new player they would likely get tired of this and move on, I pushed through because I knew I'd be able to train all the skills I needed very fast after all was said and done.
Macmuelli Gallente Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:40:00 - [53] Most ppls are against something which can help new players in the frist steps of playing or let them learn a bit faster. How long it takes to bring a charekter now to maximum skillpoints? 32 years of real life time?+++ more with new skills. Most ppls are not willing to accept something which woud be an adventage for new starting chars, cos they dont get it when the start(envy). If there woud be something which is limtied and also avaiable for old players which could be a challenge??? The "hard way" like old players had play it after 4 years + i personal think this is no more "up to date" and deterrent many new players. I dont want " noobquest" or World of Noobs" or Lord of the Noobs". 20- 30% faster learning ( dont forget its 32 years + for all skills) woud be better ( if u look for the skill float which will come on us in the future) my 2 (euro)cents "Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi " EVE FAN since 2003
Daelorn State War Academy	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:45:00 - [54] The reason I forum ***** for now....
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:48:00 - [55] bad idea, i reply to the same crappy question for about the 100th time, if you want a mmo where you can level up and challenge the older players after a few days then go play wow instead.
heheheh The Scope	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:49:00 - [56] People that cry about learning skill DO suck.
Lysianna	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:05:00 - [57] Learning Skills sucks and that's a fact. However, you don't have to train them in one huge bulk... I don't know but even real life universities and such don't do that. If you do it right, you can get a decent ship and some nice modules within the first week. Then put a week in skills while you build your capital. When you start getting into the more advance stuff, then you start putting some time into your learning skills. I started to learn the advance skills only when I was actually flying a battlecruiser. Now that I can do L4 missions, some exploration and some decent PVP, i'm taking the time to finish off the skills.
Charly Quickfire STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:20:00 - [58] Originally by: Maximillian Dragonard Yet another thread on this topic?? Face facts, learning skills are here to stay. CCP isn't about to radically alter the game just to appease the "I want it now" crowd. This game is all about *choices* If you choose to *invest* the time in learning skills, you benefit long term. If you choose not to, you pay a price. Hmmm..... ya know, kinda like if you choose to continue your education in r/l you benefit, if not you pay a price.. this In terms of new player experience, CCP already made a good decision in increasing starter SPs to 800k (in addition implants are ALOT cheaper today than 2003). Imo there is no real need to increase this even further and there is definatly no need to give new players all learning skills at lvl4 right from the start. All about choices, just as quoted above.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:44:00 - [59] I disagree. Learning skills is my last line of defense against a horde of instant gratification goons just waiting to overrun my senses. Removing this educational bastion of patience and fortitude it'll devolve into a 'no investment down' shooter. 800k starting capital and the achura default character is quite enough. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Christina Vallentine Caldari GalTech Industrials Inc Dark Matter Empire	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:53:00 - [60] Edited by: Christina Vallentine on 30/11/2007 17:56:25 Edited by: Christina Vallentine on 30/11/2007 17:54:05 Originally by: shortattenionsp People that train learning skills to 5 normal / 4 advanced before doing anything are peope who are training alts that already have main that they play. No one wants to spend the first month paying for the game without progressing, its a bad diea to suggest this as a requirement to new players, it will only put them off. The key is to get learning skills slowly over time as you require them, rather than in big chunks like an alt which you're not going to play for 6 months. Makes me chuckle when people say new players have it made though. Start and new character and see how you feel. Yes they have 800k starting skills, but 512k of that is in two lvl 5 skills, with many of the basics missing. New characters would be much better with a lot more level 3 / 4 skills spread out, but thats another post. Yes learning skills are a **ter, but they're in the game and they're not gonna go away, so just get them as you feel you need them. Do the calculations to see how long they will take to pay off too. Personally i've avoided any lvl 5 learning skills, I'd much prefer to spend the training time on new skills I can enjoy, ie new modules or bonuses. When I reach the next plateau with my training i'll probably get them. Yup ni 6 months time i'll be losing sp i could have had if i'd spent time training learning skills. Its a game after all and not a second job, the point of playing is to have fun, so train your skills accordingly. Actually what you said above is wrong. When I started this game with my 12 thousand skill points or whatever the first impression I got from the entire community was learn the learning skills or you are **. How did I learn this? I asked in the help channel and posted on the forums for guidance from the ancient and wise players. So I did exactly what you are saying is only reserved for alts and learned every learning skill, it took me 3 months. I then quit the game because of frustration. Then eventually came back almost a year later. (I almost didn't.) This community is the first thing new players will come too when they start this game. They are looking for guidance, they are looking for a path, they want to know where to put those skill points so they donÆt mess up in the beginning. And most of you veterans out there are messing it up for them and making them believe they have to get these skills RIGHT NOW!!. You have been in the damn grind for so long that you have lost sight of how much fun this game could really be if you stop min-maxing. The best advice I could give to a new player is not to learn the learning skills, but to avoid chatting with the community here for the first month. That would be 100% better then having them come here and learning that: "Omg im screwed if I don't follow the eve-online text book in terms of progression." Things on CCP's end are fine. They have provided the proper tools for a new player. It isn't until that player floats off the noobie path and comes to a place like this or that damn help channel that they get frustrated and sad. PS: Most of you are a bunch of demoralizing *****s. To those of you that arenÆt, humanity thanks you.
Siresa Talesi	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:58:00 - [61] There's been a hundred threads on this topic, and the arguments are generally the same, so forgive me if I skipped through a few posts and missed something or repeat something already said. Personally, I think new characters currently start with far too much, so I would not favor givng them more raw SP. However, having had to train up advanced learning myself, I'm in full agreement that it should be changed. I'm tired of the asinine claims that "EVE is supposed to be hard, deal with it." Yes, greater difficulty can make a game more rewarding. But pointless difficulty only adds to the mind-numbing grind and fails to add anything to the enjoyment factor of the game. I'm all for working hard to acheive your long-term goals in a game, but only if I feel I'm receiving an appropriate reward of fun for my efforts. Once it is no longer fun, it is no longer a game, and thus cannot be "played," only endured. And the arguments that learning skills keep immature WoW-type players out is simply BS (and I'm not talking ships here). I've seen my share of immature players in EVE, they haven't been kept out by learning. Granted, EVE does seem to have fewer of that sort than other MMOs, but I would have to attribute that to the overall nature of the game, not one detail such as a single set of skills. The "we had to do it, so you had to do it" arguments are just selfish. I had to do it, I didn't enjoy it, but I don't feel a need to inflict the same experience on others. Unless a change involves the refunding of SP to older players, I'd gain no benefit from such a change, nonetheless I strongly advocate such a change. If EVE is really supposed to be a game for more mature players, why not show some maturity? Get over yourself and think about what would improve the game as a whole. So what's the solution? Would I have them remove learning entirely, and bosst teh atributes of existing players? I don't know, the idea has been suggested many times, and its implementation has sometimes been proposed in a rather elegant and effective manner. But I don't know that it is the best solution. Another possibility that has been suggested is adding a secondary effect to the improvement of learning skills. Such an incremental effect could add significantly to the sense of accomlishment experienced when training these skills, and thereby reduce the feeling that they offer only a painful grind. I think either of these would be a preferable situation to what we have now.
Xyntis Night-Vision SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 18:00:00 - [62] I got screwed because CCP did this. I made my character right before revelations, and it sucks that some of these brand new guys are only about 500,000 SP lower than me, and I've been playing a lot longer than them. How many SP that the game gives new players now is more than enough. ______
Jack Freely Perkone	Posted - 2007.11.30 18:05:00 - [63] Originally by: Xyntis I got screwed because CCP did this. I made my character right before revelations, and it sucks that some of these brand new guys are only about 500,000 SP lower than me, and I've been playing a lot longer than them. How many SP that the game gives new players now is more than enough. As a new player I will never be able to catch up to the sp of the older players but that doesn't mean I can't fight them. At 3 months I'm able to pop 2 year old toons by specing in a type and staying there, I don't use the best way of doing it but it works on the "carebear pirate" types. So as a 3 month long toon I say leave it as is, we newbies can compete and win if we don't go training all the diffent ships and different guns and all that crap.
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2007.11.30 18:17:00 - [64] the learning skills are just the first lesson in EVE which is patience will out in the end. if you cannot manage to deal somehow with spending a few weeks learning those skills you are pretty obviously not cut out to play EVE.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.30 18:18:00 - [65] [sarcasm] Hey, how about this then ? You start off with L5 in all 6 basic learnings, alongside L1-L5 in the advanced learnings according to school ! Also, you start with a jumpclone installed in your starter station, L1 infomorph psychology, L1 cybernetics and a full set of +3 implants plugged in ! Wait ! You also get L3 in all rank 1 skills, L2 in all rank 2 skills and L1 in all rank 3 skills, with +2 and +1 to levels according to school ! This of course also means L1 in rank 5 skills of primary school, L2 in rank 4 skills of primary school, L1 in rank 4 skills of secondary school ! But, but, wait, you also get +10 to faction standing with the empire you were "born" into, and +5 to all corporations in it too ! I guess that's not enough either... how about if you also start with L1 battleship and L1 in the appropriate BS-weapon ? Of course, instead of a newbie frigate, everybodywould get a newbie BATTLESHIP instead, with full civilian fit ! Obviously, we have to create civilian large blasters, autocannons, pulse lasers and siege launchers, which require NO AMMO to fire, which go on the "noob BS". Last but not least, let's cancel the need for medical clones altogether, and cancel all SP loss when you die. Oh, heck, let's start people off with 100 mil ISK too on every fresh character, since you might want to move into a proper battleship from character creation already. [/sarcasm] C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
Rhaegor Stormborn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.11.30 18:19:00 - [66] I'd be all for removing learning skills and giving everyone their skill points back for reinvestment. [PIA] Recruitment Thread
Pitt Bull Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.30 18:21:00 - [67] I'm a new player, and I'll let you know how I do it: All Learning skills to level III (no social for me.) I'm a fighter so I trained perception IV and intelligence IV so i could get Clarity III and Logic III. This doesn't take too long to train, and you can train other things in between. I have done a bit of math and found that by training all learning skills to level IV and up will take a significantly longer time than its actually worth at the moment. I can spend time training more Engineering, Mechanic, Navigation and Spaceship piloting skills to level III. If you need 2 or more level V skills, this is when I would begin training learning skills to level IV, but I will not train any learning skills to level V. Why? Because the difference in skill training time from Learning level IV and V is not worth the time to train IMHO. I spend the time to get more important skills to level V such as ship piloting, offensive and defensive specializations.
Guttripper	Posted - 2007.11.30 18:55:00 - [68] How about CCP remove the whole Learning tree and double the required skill points for every other skill as compensation...?
Syrec Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.30 19:11:00 - [69] Learning skills are probably the worst part of the skill system, it's the most boring part of an EVE career.
General StarScream THE DECEPTIC0NS	Posted - 2007.11.30 19:31:00 - [70] I agree, it should be more easy to skill skills. like 50% more speed in traning, its pointless to have such a long training time. the learing curve and the isk grind is enuff. i think EvE is a great game, but it fails, due to its long traning time, having the feeling that you will never be as good as those whom been in the game for years sucks. ive played 10 months or so now, and i dont care about skills, sine i own all the l33t uba old schoolz people anyway. but for people with a iq of lower than 190, it could be hard to understand this, and thats like 99% of the world, so having faster traning time is a very good ide. i would like if you could loot skill books, wich gives you like 200k sp if you use at, and you can chose on wich skill you want to spend it on. that way you can grind for your skills if you want to. this could be a agent offer, and allos drop from officer ships Sig Removed. Dont use inappropriate language in sigs -Kaemonn
Guttripper	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:00:00 - [71] Originally by: General StarScream I agree, it should be more easy to skill skills. like 50% more speed in traning, its pointless to have such a long training time. So you are requesting World of Eve, where the real game begins at the end? Originally by: General StarScream the learing curve and the isk grind is enuff. i think EvE is a great game, but it fails, due to its long traning time, having the feeling that you will never be as good as those whom been in the game for years sucks. So you're playing a game that you feel fails... And you are continuing to play because you want to play a failed game? Originally by: General StarScream ive played 10 months or so now, and i dont care about skills, sine i own all the l33t uba old schoolz people anyway. Care to elaborate then why you even care how long any and all skills take to train, since you are the pristine gamer in a failed game that can destroy everyone by your name alone? Originally by: General StarScream but for people with a iq of lower than 190, it could be hard to understand this (snipped) Yes, reading your reply was hard to understand... I guess my IQ is lower than 190. Originally by: General StarScream i would like if you could loot skill books, wich gives you like 200k sp if you use at, and you can chose on wich skill you want to spend it on. that way you can grind for your skills if you want to. this could be a agent offer, and allos drop from officer ships Alright - training times for skills are too long, but to "grind" for skills through combat and mission would be ideal! I need a stiff drink after reading this.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:06:00 - [72] Originally by: Varshyll Now Trinity is nearly out, it is time to help the many new players a little. CCP did a great job one year ago, by increasing the amount of SP. But I think that it's not enough. Those *** learning skills are still a pain in the ***. Mostly new players give up because of this painfull, long and costly step, while you do not see any improve on you character's ability. It's already pretty hard to start with this game, so I suggest to increase the starting SP to 2M, with at least all basic learning to 4. (and maybe 2-3 adv learning to 1-2) I'm sure that with Trinity's new graphics, a lot of potential players might start to join us, let's help them. CCP will earn a lot of $$$ and will be able to create a nice Vampire MMO !!! \o/ PS : I do NOT need another alt :p PS2 : plz no "OMG it was hard for me, it has to be hard for them" whining answer. The real problem is old players telling the new ones to train nothing but learning skills. You can't "code fix" bad advice... ---- WSSH
ElCholo Minmatar The SMITE Brotherhood	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:17:00 - [73] Nobody said you had to train the learning skills first. Spend some time training real skills so you can make ISK in the game, then go to the learning skills before you train those lv5s and high rank skills.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:40:00 - [74] Originally by: Xavianum Originally by: Cpt Branko Learning skills are a bloody stupid time sink, and the jerks who say 'train adv. learnings to IV and then normal learnings to V before training anything' are saying 'pay for the game for a month, then start playing it', which is bloody damn stupid. It's easy to say something like this, but a lot harder to back it up. I've been playing exactly one month (started 10/31) and I've actually been 'playing' it as you say, not just 'paying' for it. I've purchased 4/5 adv. learning skill books, though I've only used two of them so far. I've trained my learning skills, but I've also trained a large number of other skills. I trained some basic skills like navigation, engineering, electronics, salvaging, etc. that have helped me make money and better fit my ships. Eventually my learning skills will be complete (well, 4/5 basic and adv. except charisma) and then I will be able to train more advanced skills as I see fit. I will, as it turns out, be able to afford these skills, and also be able to afford the toys they allow me to use. I will be training battlecruisers soon, along with medium projectile weapons and when I do, guess what? I'll actually have enough isk to fully outfit the thing. And to be honest, I don't spend all that much time playing the game. I just started running level 2 missions (in my rifter, which works great by the way) and I feel I have the skills and the isk to jump into pvp very soon. Anyhow, my point is that to do all this took a bit of planning and a bit of actually playing the game. In between all of my learning skills I have trained many others skills. As many people will say, you have to find a good balance between training learning skills and other skills. If you can't do that, this game isn't for you. Just because you have to plan for the long-term doesn't mean you can't have fun in the short-term. This. What this guy said. Xavanium, I like your attitude mate. If you want to get into a PvP corp, shoot me a mail and reference this thread (we get a lot of ISK farmer appspam). My corp is based in 0.0 and we'll get you some shootyshooty alright. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:41:00 - [75] Originally by: Pitt Bull I'm a new player, and I'll let you know how I do it: All Learning skills to level III (no social for me.) I'm a fighter so I trained perception IV and intelligence IV so i could get Clarity III and Logic III. This doesn't take too long to train, and you can train other things in between. I have done a bit of math and found that by training all learning skills to level IV and up will take a significantly longer time than its actually worth at the moment. I can spend time training more Engineering, Mechanic, Navigation and Spaceship piloting skills to level III. If you need 2 or more level V skills, this is when I would begin training learning skills to level IV, but I will not train any learning skills to level V. Why? Because the difference in skill training time from Learning level IV and V is not worth the time to train IMHO. I spend the time to get more important skills to level V such as ship piloting, offensive and defensive specializations. Getting your learnings to 5+4 pays off in 10-12 months, depending on your stats and skills. I've had 4 months of profit and it feels goooood! CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Abye Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:42:00 - [76] Originally by: ElCholo Nobody said you had to train the learning skills first. Wrong, as post #63 pointed out, people keep telling that learning skills are a must. Of course this advice makes sense if you play the game for more than a year, but when you are just at the beginning and don't even had a taste of all the aspects of eve you are kinda stuck. The attitude of the people giving "advices" has to change a bit, they need to see the game out of the perspective of the new player. Giving them the impression of no progression since they go for learnings is bad. When a newbie asks what to learn i restrain myself from telling them to do the learnings first. I tell them first to learn for a fun ship (A battlecruiser maybe ? Battleships need load more skills to fly well) then go for learnings. ___ CCP Garthagk: "And that is why GMs aren't DEVs"
Belce Caldari ADAMA Corps	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:57:00 - [77] I started playing this June and haven't been turned off by the learning skills. I always tell our new corpmates, learn to learn first. If you want to see how much it helps, try setting up a plan in evemon before and after learning skills. Learning skills actually quickly show a huge improvement in time to learn. What else do you need than self interest. Truth is Truth
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:02:00 - [78] Originally by: Abye Originally by: ElCholo Nobody said you had to train the learning skills first. Wrong, as post #63 pointed out, people keep telling that learning skills are a must. Of course this advice makes sense if you play the game for more than a year, but when you are just at the beginning and don't even had a taste of all the aspects of eve you are kinda stuck. The attitude of the people giving "advices" has to change a bit, they need to see the game out of the perspective of the new player. Giving them the impression of no progression since they go for learnings is bad. When a newbie asks what to learn i restrain myself from telling them to do the learnings first. I tell them first to learn for a fun ship (A battlecruiser maybe ? Battleships need load more skills to fly well) then go for learnings. To clarify: nobody's saying that you must ONLY train learnings first. (or they shouldn't be... that's just stupid unless you're starting your 4th alt or something) CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Binarii	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:03:00 - [79] I disagree. If you play to have fun you don't train learning skills online, you train the skills that you want to experience advancement in. There is no need to powerlevel in EVE, you got lots of other mmorpgs for that. EVE online has, in my opinion, by far the most advanced and intelligent skill system around. Right from the start you can be an important endgame asset to your company, what other mmorpgs offer that? You think it's unfair that you can't "catch up"? I have 5 lvl 70 charactes in WOW, one of them a hunter in reasonable good blue gear. Should I think it's unfair that another player has a 70 hunter dressed in epix? I think not. I was drunk when I wrote this, might edit it when I'm sober.
Abye Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:04:00 - [80] Originally by: Malcanis To clarify: nobody's saying that you must ONLY train learnings first. (or they shouldn't be... that's just stupid unless you're starting your 4th alt or something) Have a look yourself at all the "advice" given out and tell me what impression a new player gets. ___ CCP Garthagk: "And that is why GMs aren't DEVs"
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:08:00 - [81] Originally by: Jaikar Isillia I think other players have put it right in the terms of learning skills being the "WoW Deflector shield". Captain! incoming 1337 WOW players on the starboard bow, Damn it! OK full power to the learning skills and prepare the high sec suicide gankers for launch! Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time
Belce Caldari ADAMA Corps	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:15:00 - [82] You don't need high sec sucide gankers, just kick their can. Truth is Truth
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:16:00 - [83] Originally by: Belce ...Learning skills actually quickly show a huge improvement in time to learn. What else do you need than self interest. I don't know. A month or so of boredom? Quiting the game prematurly because some hooha told you to "learn to learn"? Sure, learning skill benefits can be quantified. I wonder how many have left thinking eve was the dullest game ever because they felt they had to suck roids or run level 1s for a month while they waited on their self imposed, "vet" reinforced version of eve hell to end. Too bad that can't be quantified... Best advice to give new players is to tell them to mix learning skills in. Just because Evemon doesn't give you a fun factor rating doesn't mean it isn't there. ---- WSSH
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:17:00 - [84] Originally by: Abye Originally by: Malcanis To clarify: nobody's saying that you must ONLY train learnings first. (or they shouldn't be... that's just stupid unless you're starting your 4th alt or something) Have a look yourself at all the "advice" given out and tell me what impression a new player gets. If people only get advice from one source and can't make their own decisions.... ...they should put an app in to Snigg? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Endica Enterprises Alternative Realities	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:22:00 - [85] This: Originally by: Drasked Bottom line, if you cant find the right balance between training the learning skills and training skills that actually make you enjoy the game, you have failed. Actually new players have it better than ever before atm. No need to spoil them even more. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
Troye Gallente Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:54:00 - [86] When I was training my learning skills way back in my noob days I was still having fun doing other things, if all you do is watch your skills count down then obliviously its going to get dull. _______________________________________________
Jhinn Berkut	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:55:00 - [87] Originally by: Cpt Branko Learning skills are a bloody stupid time sink, and the jerks who say 'train adv. learnings to IV and then normal learnings to V before training anything' are saying 'pay for the game for a month, then start playing it', which is bloody damn stupid. Bingo. The idea that doing something that does nothing but make the actuyal game progress is simply stupid. There is zero difference between signing up on April 1, and then not playing until you get all your learning skills to 5/4, and just having them there to begin with. And the idea that this is "skill" is simply sad. If THAT is the skill that makes EVE what it is, then there is no skill at all. Because logging in every X hours/days to switch a training skill around does not take any skill. Hell, that makes WoW look hard by comparison.
Jhinn Berkut	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:58:00 - [88] Originally by: Xavianum Originally by: Cpt Branko Learning skills are a bloody stupid time sink, and the jerks who say 'train adv. learnings to IV and then normal learnings to V before training anything' are saying 'pay for the game for a month, then start playing it', which is bloody damn stupid. It's easy to say something like this, but a lot harder to back it up. I've been playing exactly one month (started 10/31) and I've actually been 'playing' it as you say, not just 'paying' for it. I've purchased 4/5 adv. learning skill books, though I've only used two of them so far. I've trained my learning skills, but I've also trained a large number of other skills. I trained some basic skills like navigation, engineering, electronics, salvaging, etc. that have helped me make money and better fit my ships. Eventually my learning skills will be complete (well, 4/5 basic and adv. except charisma) and then I will be able to train more advanced skills as I see fit. I will, as it turns out, be able to afford these skills, and also be able to afford the toys they allow me to use. I will be training battlecruisers soon, along with medium projectile weapons and when I do, guess what? I'll actually have enough isk to fully outfit the thing. And to be honest, I don't spend all that much time playing the game. I just started running level 2 missions (in my rifter, which works great by the way) and I feel I have the skills and the isk to jump into pvp very soon. Anyhow, my point is that to do all this took a bit of planning and a bit of actually playing the game. In between all of my learning skills I have trained many others skills. As many people will say, you have to find a good balance between training learning skills and other skills. If you can't do that, this game isn't for you. Just because you have to plan for the long-term doesn't mean you can't have fun in the short-term. All those learning skills added NOTHING to the game you played. You did not have to "learn" how to do them, they did not make you a better player, they didn't teach you anything about how to make ISK, PVP, mine, trade, nothing. The only thing they did was take time. That is all they add to the game - a time sink.
Jhinn Berkut	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:10:00 - [89] Originally by: Steve Hawkings bad idea, i reply to the same crappy question for about the 100th time, if you want a mmo where you can level up and challenge the older players after a few days then go play wow instead. I find the idea that long time players are so jealous of their position based not at all on skill, but simply on time, rather sad really. The SP system has absolutely NOTHING to do with skill. It is just time. I mean, if you guys who have been playing for years have gotten good in that time, surely letting new players train at a rate slightly closer to yours (since in reality they cannot afford the implants to actually gain SP at the rate you will) isn't such a terrible threat to your ego, is it? And that is ALL that learning does - it slows the RATE that new players can train - it isn't like getting rid of them will actually close the tens of millions SP gap by one single SP. If Day 1 is the starting line, the long time player has a massive lead, and what is more, is moving forward at a greater rate, making the gap grow more than the new player. If this was a car race, you get a 400 mile head start, and your car goes 100 mph while the newbs car only goes 25 mph, until he can spend months getting it to go 75mph. Someday perhaps he will get hsi car up to 100mph, but by then the lead will be up to 600 miles - and here is the kicker he can never, ever, EVER go faster than you. No matter how good he is. Letting him go 75 right from the start will not let him catch you. Just won't let you continue to increase the gap as fast as you like. I find the argument that the experienced players are so afraid of new players and need to make sure that new players don't "get anything they didn't get" kind of sad really. It is nothing more than "I came first, I established my primacy, and I want the system to make sure I stay on top - and all relating to something that has nothing to do with actual skill at all".
Jhinn Berkut	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:12:00 - [90] Originally by: Danton Marcellus I disagree. Learning skills is my last line of defense against a horde of instant gratification goons just waiting to overrun my senses. Removing this educational bastion of patience and fortitude it'll devolve into a 'no investment down' shooter. 800k starting capital and the achura default character is quite enough. Wow, I guess it is too bad your only line of defense against a clueless newb isn't your own learned skill and knowledge, but just a pointless time sink that protects your ability to click on which skill you want to train next.
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:16:00 - [91] Originally by: Cpt Branko Learning skills are a bloody stupid time sink, and the jerks who say 'train adv. learnings to IV and then normal learnings to V before training anything' are saying 'pay for the game for a month, then start playing it', which is bloody damn stupid. hmm a time sink.. how on earth did you arrive at that conclusion? First off, they are completely optional, so if you sink your time into them then that is your own decision. I started this character with around 100k SP, which was about as high as you could go. the characters you create now starts with up to 800k SP, with some basic learning skills trained, and a lot of support skills. Why is that not good enough. I mean <100k SP was good enough for everyone else before. And now you have it even better. and you're complaining? secondly. the entire skill system in this game is a time sink, just like grinding in conventional mmo's. If anything learning skills are an "anti-timesink" as they make your skills faster. I can't stress enough that they are optional though. if you only plan to play for a ew months, then don't bother training them. Heck, don't even bother playing the game, its not very much fun in the first few weeks anyway. EVE is a long-term game, and should be a long-term game.
Leroy Payne	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:19:00 - [92] in other news: i spoke to jesus today.
Jhinn Berkut	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:22:00 - [93] Originally by: Freya Runestone Originally by: Cpt Branko Learning skills are a bloody stupid time sink, and the jerks who say 'train adv. learnings to IV and then normal learnings to V before training anything' are saying 'pay for the game for a month, then start playing it', which is bloody damn stupid. hmm a time sink.. how on earth did you arrive at that conclusion? First off, they are completely optional, so if you sink your time into them then that is your own decision. I started this character with around 100k SP, which was about as high as you could go. the characters you create now starts with up to 800k SP, with some basic learning skills trained, and a lot of support skills. Why is that not good enough. I mean <100k SP was good enough for everyone else before. And now you have it even better. and you're complaining? secondly. the entire skill system in this game is a time sink, just like grinding in conventional mmo's. If anything learning skills are an "anti-timesink" as they make your skills faster. I can't stress enough that they are optional though. if you only plan to play for a ew months, then don't bother training them. Heck, don't even bother playing the game, its not very much fun in the first few weeks anyway. EVE is a long-term game, and should be a long-term game. The heart of EVE is a PvP game. The fact that fundamentally, no new player can catch a long time players SPs, and in fact the new player cannot even match the long time players rate of SP acquisition is a problem. It isn't a terrible problem, and EVE does a good job of making it so the short time player can contribute, but this idea that somehow the fact that player A has played 1 year longer than player B means that player A just has some kind of innate right to stomp the crap out of player A irrespective of their actual skill at the game is rather spurious, and does not work in the long run, since eventually nobody will ever come into the game and it will not grow. Now, CCP knows this, and that is why the starting SPs will continue to go up over time. The learning skills probably seemed like a good idea at some point, but they actually exacerbate this problem, quite badly. I am certain that if they could do so, CCP would go back in time and never put them in the game to begin with. They add nothing but time, and not even time to get more skills, but time to get so that your rate of acquisition can be completive. Ditching learning skills will not take anything away from anyone - all it will do is slightly lessen that already massive advantage enjoyed by longer term players.
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:25:00 - [94] Replying to the opening post on this thread i think that giving 200000 skill points to every pilot in the game may help. 200k to me would make very little difference but would be a great advantage to a newer player. I would advise taking the new pilot starting skill points from 800k to 1 mill. www.eve-players.com
Tractormech Caldari the evil ones	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:28:00 - [95] Edited by: Tractormech on 30/11/2007 22:34:28 New players are already given far more than enough. When I started I remember being excited just to get in a cruiser, it was my main ship for a quite a long time. Now new players are in battleships within a couple weeks. New players can't catchup? Wrong. Its called specialization. You can only go so far in a certain class of ship. The older player will just be able to use quite a number of ships. As said before, its a good filter. If you can't handle learning skills then you won't be able to handle the rest of the game. Might aswell quit now.
Jhinn Berkut	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:30:00 - [96] Originally by: Jhinn Berkut Ditching learning skills will not take anything away from anyone - all it will do is slightly lessen that already massive advantage enjoyed by longer term players. This si not entirely accurate. Ditching learning skills won't lessen the advantage older players have, it will only lessen the RATE that the older players advantage is increasing over newer players. It isn't even a question of "catching up" which is impossible, it is only a question of slowing down the increasing gap.
Jhinn Berkut	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:33:00 - [97] Originally by: Tractormech New players are already given far more than enough. When I started I remember being excited just to get in a cruiser, it was my main ship for a quite a long time. Now new players are in battleships within a couple weeks. Do they beat you in those two week old battleships? If they do, your problems have nothing to do with newb players getting too many skill points. And as a sorta newb player...how in the hell does a new player even afford a battleship within a couple weeks, much less actually know what to do with one? Man, if all that separates you in skill with a two week old player is a couple hundred thousand skill points...well, that says more about you than it does about them. You should practice or something.
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:37:00 - [98] I forgot to mention that I am very happy with the learning skills the way they are at the moment. Learning skills and correct skill management is a core part of an eve pilotÆs game and undermining this would be detrimental to everyone. www.eve-players.com
Tractormech Caldari the evil ones	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:39:00 - [99] Quote: Do they beat you in those two week old battleships? If they do, your problems have nothing to do with newb players getting too many skill points. At no point did I say i would ever be worried about said newb in said battleship. If anything it makes a nice explosion. Perhaps if this forum was not so full of people trying to look for random insults to make themselves feel superior, as opposed to reasonable discussion these forums wouldn't be going so horribly downhill as they have lately. But for the purposes of PVE it definately does make a difference. New players are able to earn isk at a greatly accelerated rate than before. I'm just pointing out the difference between now and then. They already have a lot more of the game open to them while they do their learning skills, and a chance to earn a good income when they do them. Not so much before while just in a cruiser. So there isn't anything to complain about.
puff freak	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:50:00 - [100] Originally by: Freya Runestone Edited by: Freya Runestone on 30/11/2007 22:20:29 Originally by: Cpt Branko Learning skills are a bloody stupid time sink, and the jerks who say 'train adv. learnings to IV and then normal learnings to V before training anything' are saying 'pay for the game for a month, then start playing it', which is bloody damn stupid. hmm a time sink.. how on earth did you arrive at that conclusion? First off, they are completely optional, so if you sink your time into them then that is your own decision. exactly! learning skills are optional. if you spend time doing them then you deserve additional attribute points for doing them. i wish new players and player who dont want to invest the time would stop wanting everything so damned easy! I LOVE LEARNING SKILLS they are part of what makes eve have depth. DO NOT REMOVE THEM!
Swift Wind 6rasshopper Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:51:00 - [101] Edited by: Swift Wind on 30/11/2007 22:51:37 Originally by: Jhinn Berkut lots of stuff... Ok let me ask you a question? Why should you get a bigger advantage than I got? As a slightly under 2yo player i got screwed, I am nowhere near the higher skilled players and the newer players have months cut off their training times. Why should I care that you (or any new player) thinks progression is slow, when for your "new player expirence" dosent include months of HORRID BOREDOM that I had. You think it is bad now? Trust me, us "middle aged" players have it the worst, and do you hear us ***ing that we wont catch up to the "vets"? As someone stated eairler use evemon, it will tell you when training them is worth it. Me and my Bro, both at 6 months old (most likely with less SP than you started with) had our own POS in 0.0, and were "harassing" the locals, so don't tell me your handicapped from playing... Anywhere, Anytime.**
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:52:00 - [102] how bout doing older players a favor while we at it i get the main skill to fly maurauders train maurauder 1 up and it fill in all the secondary skills etc that you need for it that you skipped :P. heck this should go for all older players and t2 ships. if noobs get automatic max learning skills i think this is fair also.
Leroy Payne	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:52:00 - [103] SCOOP: Eve has nothing to do with fairness. You started later than Chribba. Boohoo, get over it
Abye Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:54:00 - [104] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Abye Originally by: Malcanis To clarify: nobody's saying that you must ONLY train learnings first. (or they shouldn't be... that's just stupid unless you're starting your 4th alt or something) Have a look yourself at all the "advice" given out and tell me what impression a new player gets. If people only get advice from one source and can't make their own decisions.... ...they should put an app in to Snigg? Nah, they should go to SMASH I didn't point out to a single source ___ CCP Garthagk: "And that is why GMs aren't DEVs"
Terminus adacai Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:59:00 - [105] /signed a BIG FAT NO!! I was once a new player as well. I chose to work on learning skills for the first couple of weeks while learning the game and deciding what path my charatoon would take. Hell OP, while were at it, why not make them Hulk ready and make that their starting ship? Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:03:00 - [106] The heart of EVE is a PvP game. The fact that fundamentally, no new player can catch a long time players SPs, and in fact the new player cannot even match the long time players rate of SP acquisition is a problem. It isn't a terrible problem, and EVE does a good job of making it so the short time player can contribute, but this idea that somehow the fact that player A has played 1 year longer than player B means that player A just has some kind of innate right to stomp the crap out of player A irrespective of their actual skill at the game is rather spurious, and does not work in the long run, since eventually nobody will ever come into the game and it will not grow. Now, CCP knows this, and that is why the starting SPs will continue to go up over time. The learning skills probably seemed like a good idea at some point, but they actually exacerbate this problem, quite badly. I am certain that if they could do so, CCP would go back in time and never put them in the game to begin with. They add nothing but time, and not even time to get more skills, but time to get so that your rate of acquisition can be completive. Ditching learning skills will not take anything away from anyone - all it will do is slightly lessen that already massive advantage enjoyed by longer term players. There wouldn't be PvP if there wasn't PvE, thats a fact. no matter how you look at it. the miners and producers and mission runners provide you with the toys to go blow up. It's a game balanced between PvE and PvP, where both are dependant on the other. I assume you mean player A stomps player B, not A stomps A. which is what you wrote. Playing for longer doesn't mean you're X amount better. if you compare 1 guy with all lv IV skills and one with all lv V skills, the one with lv V will be better, but he will have spent twice as long training for it, than the lv IV pilot will have spent, around 5% better than the IV pilot (most skills give around 5% bonuses per level) On top of that, a specialized polit who doesn't have, fx. a mission runner ship+fittings, other racial ships, or other role's skills trained will reach the same effectiveness as the pilot who went for the jack of all trades SP split. dumping Learning skills will take away something away, not from the people, but from the game. EVE is hard, EVE is harsh, and it can make you furious or make you happy. taking learning skills away is the first step on the way to making the game easier as a whole, taking away difficulty decreases the mental reward that you get after completing a task, it'll end up being a boring game, it might make it more popular, but it'll make it a worse game overall. IF this is really the way you feel, i have to ask, why are you playing EVE, and not WOW? Thats not a joke either, it's a serious question. You're asking for a change in a very defining part of the game. EVE is a long term game, and it's one of the only ones. EVE rewards planning, strategy and knowledge, It's a much more satisfying game to achieve something in. By miles. Compared to other games where there exists such a thing as "endgame" EVE is a player-driven ever-changing virtual universe, that's the defining point of EVE, and at least I think thats the reason most people enjoy it.
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:08:00 - [107] yea i am sick of these threads seriously, waaa we want +10 learning skills, grow up its called choice, you can choose to never train them up if you do not want to, you can choose to train them up whenever you feel like it or you can choose to train them from the get go and forgo all else. hello kitty online and wow is waiting for you if you cant handle training learning skills smartly, and using your brain period.
Sirtak	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:12:00 - [108] What's up with the hating for learning? I've been playing for a couple of weeks now, got every learning skill (besides advanced charisma) at 4, or nearly there, while now also being able to fly a retriever and an omen rather effectively. Just have to find a balance.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:25:00 - [109] Originally by: Sirtak What's up with the hating for learning? I've been playing for a couple of weeks now, got every learning skill (besides advanced charisma) at 4, or nearly there, while now also being able to fly a retriever and an omen rather effectively. Just have to find a balance. Basically it's a bunch of older players who want to skill up their alts for R&D farming faster. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:26:00 - [110] Originally by: Jhinn Berkut Skills are a time sink You get a gold star. You can have another if you can tell us what kind of sink buying skills is? Extra credit if you spot the pattern here. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Trauts Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:28:00 - [111] 1) Adjust all base attributes by +10 2) Change learning skills into ambulation skills (Bar Management, Advanced Bar Management) Result: A) New players are happy because they dont have to train learning skills (I agree that they are a waste of time) B) Old players (who think new players should suffer just because they did) dont get shafted because now they dont have to train the skills that are sure to come with ambulation.
Kuzya Morozov Gallente Organized Combat Consortium	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:44:00 - [112] I don't know if you should take out learning skills, but I had 2 friends just try EVE and one quit because it was too complicated, the other one quit because it took took too long to do anything with the useful skills and upon learning what he'd have to go through he just quit. It made me sad.
Fanjita	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:56:00 - [113] Originally by: Varshyll Now Trinity is nearly out, it is time to help the many new players a little. CCP did a great job one year ago, by increasing the amount of SP. But I think that it's not enough. Those *** learning skills are still a pain in the ***. Mostly new players give up because of this painfull, long and costly step, while you do not see any improve on you character's ability. It's already pretty hard to start with this game, so I suggest to increase the starting SP to 2M, with at least all basic learning to 4. (and maybe 2-3 adv learning to 1-2) I'm sure that with Trinity's new graphics, a lot of potential players might start to join us, let's help them. CCP will earn a lot of $$$ and will be able to create a nice Vampire MMO !!! \o/ PS : I do NOT need another alt :p PS2 : plz no "OMG it was hard for me, it has to be hard for them" whining answer. You dont have to train them you have a choice.
respectmathouritaz	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:59:00 - [114] dont train them then training anything past level 3 takes months to pay off so just dont train them and shutup expecting everyone to have them maxed for free is not a good idea ccp increased newb characters to 800k and all it did is give more useful alts to the people who play the game with multiple accounts already newbs will have fun killing a 0.9 rat with a civilian blaster
IamBen Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:00:00 - [115] having to decide between learning and other skills is one of key points of eve. Finding that balance shouldnt be taken away. Plus, now that you dont need lvl 5 on the base skills anymore, its alot easier than it used to be to quickly get good attributes.
Mon eemakar	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:09:00 - [116] Edited by: Mon eemakar on 01/12/2007 01:13:15 I'm new to this game so I'll give it to you from my perspective. The problem is actually with the way skill are learned. I love reading these forums and ppl acting as though eve is so much more hardcore-what a joke!!! I could get a tens of millions of SP character over a year by logging on to click another skill and doing just enough grinding to get the ISK to buy a new skills. The amount of actual gametime required would be nothing comparded to that required to level a character to 70 and run end game raids for decent gear. You might say well gtting the SP is more like getting the level and gtting the ISK is mor like getting the gear/gold u need. Well, fair enuff-within the EULA of this game i can make a tens of milions of SP character with barely ne actual played time and then sell GTC for ISK to buy my ships/skills-done and definitely not hardcore. Within WOW EULA you would need at least 2 months actual played time to get a well geared level 70. So to address the OP -essentially this game does not encourage new players to actually start playing the game for a few months after buying it. I am a hardcore gamer and this gam does not reward the time that I'm willing to put in like other games do. I am better to log on train skill toons on two accounts and play another game like wow that rewards time played until I have the skils necessary to make serious money. Obviously CCP will no change the skills training system so that it rewards played time so new players will always find the 1st few month of Eve rather pointless. Interestingly-WOW has implemented sytem that allows for both over the last few months-with an arena system that allows you to get gear over time by giving you points each week and the PVE system which allows you to get gear based on time played-so you could log on for an hour a week and end up with good gear over a long period of time or play harcore for a few weeks PVE and get good gear faster. If at first you don't succeed....don't try skydiving.
freakbacca	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:10:00 - [117] Originally by: Kuzya Morozov I don't know if you should take out learning skills, but I had 2 friends just try EVE and one quit because it was too complicated, the other one quit because it took took too long to do anything with the useful skills and upon learning what he'd have to go through he just quit. It made me sad. tell them to get an X-BOX. this game is no arcade game..
Mon eemakar	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:15:00 - [118] i agree with the posts that say ppl should be prepared to put in the effort but unfortunately Eve rewards you for how long you hav owned the game rather than how much you play it (or how much effort you're willing to put in). If at first you don't succeed....don't try skydiving.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:24:00 - [119] EVE is full of legendary traps for mathematically-challenged and/or economically-challenged people. We love those traps, as much as we love those specific people that these specific traps were designed for. Hands off our traps ! Translation : ffs, leave the learning skills alone, GB2school and get Calculus and Economics 101, n00b. C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
freakbacca	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:24:00 - [120] Originally by: Mon eemakar Edited by: Mon eemakar on 01/12/2007 01:15:33 i agree with the posts that say ppl should be prepared to put in the effort but unfortunately Eve rewards you for how long you have owned the game rather than how much you play it (or how much effort you're willing to put in). that's the way this game was made. No Grinding. aren't there enough grind games already? if eve were to invalidate anything i've invested my time doing to a large enough extent, then i'd quit. star wars galaxies did that, and i quit that and never looked back. this may be a game however theres a lot of players that spend a huge amount of time, and do take the game seriously. It's not fair to just remove whole banks of time that we've spent money and time perfecting.
Kuzya Morozov Gallente Organized Combat Consortium	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:27:00 - [121] Originally by: freakbacca Originally by: Kuzya Morozov I don't know if you should take out learning skills, but I had 2 friends just try EVE and one quit because it was too complicated, the other one quit because it took took too long to do anything with the useful skills and upon learning what he'd have to go through he just quit. It made me sad. tell them to get an X-BOX. this game is no arcade game.. Just shut up, seriously, I don't think you even read my god damn post.
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:32:00 - [122] I will tell you what really sucks... This. Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time
Chaplain Veritas Amarr The Aduro Protocol The Fifth Race	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:32:00 - [123] Originally by: Drasked Bottom line, if you cant find the right balance between training the learning skills and training skills that actually make you enjoy the game, you have failed. having to find balances between spending time in a GAME to do something that does nothing for your GAMEplay and spending time doing things that do improve your GAMEplay makes for broken GAME mechanics. learning skills = meter watching. anyone remember that stupid game? can't remember. 'meterquest' or something. some stupid ap that just sat there raising up a meter as you automatically killed stuff. sometimes you'd run in to another "player". but all it was was a meter that went up with time gaining levels, no interaction whatsoever. it kept track of the "top" players and stuff. it was just a pointless little thing. yeah, whenever i think about learning skills it reminds me of that "game". 100% pointless. ____________________________ the eyes are the groin of the face - dwight shrute
Mon eemakar	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:36:00 - [124] Originally by: Akita T EVE is full of legendary traps for mathematically-challenged and/or economically-challenged people. We love those traps, as much as we love those specific people that these specific traps were designed for. Hands off our traps ! Translation : ffs, leave the learning skills alone, GB2school and get Calculus and Economics 101, n00b. Please explain this post-it makes no sense. Are you saying that learning skills are a waste of time? I know that in one day of learning skills i wiped 16 hours of cal frig 4 so i believe the maths tht ive read claiming that learning skils wipe a considerable amount of time off reaching your goals. If at first you don't succeed....don't try skydiving.
Mon eemakar	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:39:00 - [125] Originally by: freakbacca Originally by: Mon eemakar Edited by: Mon eemakar on 01/12/2007 01:15:33 i agree with the posts that say ppl should be prepared to put in the effort but unfortunately Eve rewards you for how long you have owned the game rather than how much you play it (or how much effort you're willing to put in). that's the way this game was made. No Grinding. aren't there enough grind games already? if eve were to invalidate anything i've invested my time doing to a large enough extent, then i'd quit. star wars galaxies did that, and i quit that and never looked back. this may be a game however theres a lot of players that spend a huge amount of time, and do take the game seriously. It's not fair to just remove whole banks of time that we've spent money and time perfecting. pleas read my posts again. i explicitly stted that people should b required to expend time and energy to advance and I never askd fo handouts. My points was that time and effort is not required for advancment in EVE just how long you have owned the game(providing tht you can be bothered to click a button once every few days) If at first you don't succeed....don't try skydiving.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:51:00 - [126] Originally by: Mon eemakar Originally by: Akita T EVE is full of legendary traps for mathematically-challenged and/or economically-challenged people. We love those traps, as much as we love those specific people that these specific traps were designed for. Hands off our traps ! Translation : ffs, leave the learning skills alone, GB2school and get Calculus and Economics 101, n00b. Please explain this post-it makes no sense. Are you saying that learning skills are a waste of time? I know that in one day of learning skills i wiped 16 hours of cal frig 4 so i believe the maths tht ive read claiming that learning skils wipe a considerable amount of time off reaching your goals. Short-term profit vs long-term investment... sometimes, short-term profit IS better overall. Depending on particular situation, it could be moronic to do all learning, or to do no learning, or any learning past a certain degree. If you quantify "amount and usefulness of non-learning skills" vs "time spend paying to play", the equation solves quite nicely and vastly different for each individual character... and the main factor here is FUNDING (the greatest difference in "learning tactics" will be found between a genuine new player and a heavily funded alt). Lucky for you, EVE-Mon does a bang-up job of solving the problem for you most of the time, you just have to input it (i.e. make a desired skill list and play with the implant selection). C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
Kate Nexus	Posted - 2007.12.01 20:59:00 - [127] Solution: get rid of learning skills, give everyone the attributes from them. No more month of boredom for new players.
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.12.01 22:00:00 - [128] Learning skills are not something you "must" train on your first 2 weeks or even month. Skills for ships and modules which you need in the beginning can be trained quite quickly even without them. You were not the first player to join Eve. Those before you have found the balance between learning "fun" skills and learning "learning" skills, why can't you do the same? New players already start with improved characters, there's no need to boost attributes even further. Press alt+F4 to reduce lag
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.12.02 03:07:00 - [129] Originally by: Kate Nexus Solution: get rid of learning skills, give everyone the attributes from them. No more month of boredom for new players. There newer was a month of boredom for new players. learning skills are optional. completely optional, they aren't pre-reqs for anything. you can play the game exactly the same way without them. if you have a month of boredom, then that is your own fault. get enough skills to sustain yourself before you start up the learning skills.
Ed Anger Weekly World News	Posted - 2007.12.02 03:08:00 - [130] they suck, admit it
Garborg Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.02 03:12:00 - [131] Edited by: Garborg on 02/12/2007 03:14:06 I'm a new player, and I'm not playing the game while I spend a month + getting all my learning skills. Hopefully I'll still be interested in the game once they are done. Edit Yep they are optional. And they are also most beneficial if you do them from day 1 rather than wait till month 6.
DirtyHarry Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.02 03:35:00 - [132] Im still waiting for CCP to give their 2003 players the 1mill SP all the nubs have got for free that started in the past year or so. Please do not make false statements about forum moderators
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2007.12.02 03:42:00 - [133] Give me my 2.5 mill SP in learning towards some other skills, and you can have all noobs come in with free learning skills. Nothing is free in EVE, you have to 'work' for it, one way or another. I did my 'Learning' stint, and I expect you to do it.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.02 03:45:00 - [134] Originally by: Mon eemakar crap Your mistake is thinking the goal in EVE is progress towards the endgame. You are a prime example of someone who needs to gb2/WoW. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.12.02 03:51:00 - [135] I tried making a new character, just to see what is was like. caldari - asian race i started out with analytical mind 4 and instant recall/learning at 1(i think) plugging that character into EVE-mon and trainign all basic learning skills to IV took only just over 1 week. on top of that doing the noob missions you get 2 implants that further increases your leaning skill speed (int and mem for the caldari asian race, don't know if its different for other races) I don't remember what the asian bloodline of the caldari is called :/ Anyway, training them is quick, does not take very long, and you can always just train them up to maybe 3, train some combat skills for a month and then train them up to wherever you like having them, while you have fun in the ship you now have the ability to fly.
Sekket Caldari White-Noise Skunk-Works	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:16:00 - [136] EvE you play for the journey, WoW for the purples. Once you understand this the EvE skill training system makes perfect sense.
Kyra Felann Gallente Red Eye .Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:17:00 - [137] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Jaikar Isillia I think other players have put it right in the terms of learning skills being the "WoW Deflector shield". You win EvE fourms today. Hey yeah! Let's get rid of ALL new players, why didn't I think of that?! You think players can't come to Eve without playing WoW first? I realize Wow is like My First MMO(TM), but I came to Eve recently and I didn't play WoW. If people have played WoW in the past, fine, as long as they don't whine about how Eve should be more like WoW. Ex- and wannabe- WoW players already ruined Guild Wars, IMO. The WoW mentality is totally different from the Eve mentality. If a player can't see beyond the WoW mentality, they should stay with WoW.
Kyra Felann Gallente Red Eye .Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:18:00 - [138] Originally by: Mon eemakar Edited by: Mon eemakar on 01/12/2007 01:13:15 I'm new to this game so I'll give it to you from my perspective. The problem is actually with the way skill are learned. I love reading these forums and ppl acting as though eve is so much more hardcore-what a joke!!! I could get a tens of millions of SP character over a year by logging on to click another skill and doing just enough grinding to get the ISK to buy a new skills. The amount of actual gametime required would be nothing comparded to that required to level a character to 70 and run end game raids for decent gear. You might say well gtting the SP is more like getting the level and gtting the ISK is mor like getting the gear/gold u need. Well, fair enuff-within the EULA of this game i can make a tens of milions of SP character with barely ne actual played time and then sell GTC for ISK to buy my ships/skills-done and definitely not hardcore. Within WOW EULA you would need at least 2 months actual played time to get a well geared level 70. So to address the OP -essentially this game does not encourage new players to actually start playing the game for a few months after buying it. I am a hardcore gamer and this gam does not reward the time that I'm willing to put in like other games do. I am better to log on train skill toons on two accounts and play another game like wow that rewards time played until I have the skils necessary to make serious money. Obviously CCP will no change the skills training system so that it rewards played time so new players will always find the 1st few month of Eve rather pointless. Interestingly-WOW has implemented sytem that allows for both over the last few months-with an arena system that allows you to get gear over time by giving you points each week and the PVE system which allows you to get gear based on time played-so you could log on for an hour a week and end up with good gear over a long period of time or play harcore for a few weeks PVE and get good gear faster. GB2WOW.
Ed Anger Weekly World News	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:21:00 - [139] i am here for secret, to make eve wowtastic, wowunderful, wowriffic. i kno it will take while, but more wowness for eve!!!
Ed Anger Weekly World News	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:23:00 - [140] Originally by: DirtyHarry Im still waiting for CCP to give their 2003 players the 1mill SP all the nubs have got for free that started in the past year or so. i am sad for u 2003 players with 23432234455643 skills!! neeed more to make up so u stay most uber!!
Maximillian Dragonard	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:26:00 - [141] Same old crap..... "I want it NOW!"... I didn't enjoy training learning, but I trained it while offline and trained the "fun stuff" while online. It's purely a matter of mindset. Patience is a virtue, which appears to be severely lacking lately
Ed Anger Weekly World News	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:31:00 - [142] Originally by: Maximillian Dragonard Same old crap..... "I want it NOW!"... I didn't enjoy training learning, but I trained it while offline and trained the "fun stuff" while online. It's purely a matter of mindset. Patience is a virtue, which appears to be severely lacking lately u r the coolest!
Shar'Tuk TheHated	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:32:00 - [143] Originally by: Jaikar Isillia I think other players have put it right in the terms of learning skills being the "WoW Deflector shield". Shields up Captian! DRINK RUM It fights scurvy & boosts morale! THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES!
DirtyHarry Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:33:00 - [144] Originally by: Ed Anger Originally by: DirtyHarry Im still waiting for CCP to give their 2003 players the 1mill SP all the nubs have got for free that started in the past year or so. i am sad for u 2003 players with 23432234455643 skills!! neeed more to make up so u stay most uber!! I am sad for us too, subscribing to a game for over 4 years to repeatedly get kicked in the balls. Please do not make false statements about forum moderators
Ed Anger Weekly World News	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:34:00 - [145] Originally by: DirtyHarry Originally by: Ed Anger Originally by: DirtyHarry Im still waiting for CCP to give their 2003 players the 1mill SP all the nubs have got for free that started in the past year or so. i am sad for u 2003 players with 23432234455643 skills!! neeed more to make up so u stay most uber!! I am sad for us too, subscribing to a game for over 4 years to repeatedly get kicked in the balls. cuase 4 years advantage is not enuf to pwn all n00bs!!!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:43:00 - [146] Originally by: Ed Anger Originally by: DirtyHarry Originally by: Ed Anger Originally by: DirtyHarry Im still waiting for CCP to give their 2003 players the 1mill SP all the nubs have got for free that started in the past year or so. i am sad for u 2003 players with 23432234455643 skills!! neeed more to make up so u stay most uber!! I am sad for us too, subscribing to a game for over 4 years to repeatedly get kicked in the balls. cuase 4 years advantage is not enuf to pwn all n00bs!!! You know the real reason is because having the optimal number of skillpoints in relation to your start date is Serious Business. OMG A SKILL FINISHED WHILE I WAS TYPING THIS THAT'S TWO SECONDS I'LL NEVER GET BACK NOW I AM TWO SECONDS BEHIND EVERYONE I QUIT YOU CAN'T HAVE MY STUFF - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.12.02 06:06:00 - [147] You know when I will be approving the removal of learning skills ? The same day they remove the level cap... you know, that "silly L5 is max" thing. Even if it takes me a year, I still want L11 Amarr <someship>, so I gain capacitor when I shoot lasers or better still, L20 rapid fire, where I can empty my entire "clip" into an enemy since my RoF is 0 sec (-100% RoF FTW). Oh, heck, why not make that L11 Amarr <someship> AND L20 raid fire, so I can INSTAKILL any target AND refill my capacitor according to the amount of total HPs that poor target had. C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
Garborg Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.02 06:15:00 - [148] Originally by: Ed Anger cuase 4 years advantage is not enuf to pwn all n00bs!!! Did someone say pwn da noobs?
Tarron Sarek Gallente Endica Enterprises Alternative Realities	Posted - 2007.12.03 00:31:00 - [149] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 03/12/2007 00:34:10 Originally by: Sirtak What's up with the hating for learning? It's called impatience, with an urge for instant gratification due to a short attention span. In short: modern days disease. Oh, on a 'completely different' note: CCP I'd like to catch up to the 2003's chars and get rid of my seriously subpar Intaki stats. Pretty please? Ah well, just joking.. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.12.03 21:37:00 - [150] Nothing wrong with the learning skills. I like the way players must decide between long term benefit over short term gain...which may actually create even more long term benefit. Just blindly training all the skills to 5 won't get you anywhere.
Evelyn Murphy Caldari Khaos Heavy Industries Order of Khaos	Posted - 2007.12.03 21:42:00 - [151] Originally by: Jaikar Isillia I think other players have put it right in the terms of learning skills being the "WoW Deflector shield". lol! Sadly enough, it's true and very much needed. The last thing any of us want is to have that playerbase on our servers. ____________________________________________________________________ Look at my lovely sig! I spent 10 seconds on it!
Orree Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.12.03 21:48:00 - [152] Originally by: Drasked Bottom line, if you cant find the right balance between training the learning skills and training skills that actually make you enjoy the game, you have failed. Pretty much this. "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
Heskill	Posted - 2007.12.03 22:19:00 - [153] I am a new player, I recently quit WoW and while looking for something to play gravitated back towards EVE, a game which has intrigued me for some time. I've messed around for a few weeks playing an Amarr, a minmater and have finally settled on a Gallente spec ops build. I started with a rather heavy selection of drone skills. Having put scout drone V on training for a week while they roll out trinity I will be able to use tech 2 drones with just over a week of play. The downside is I start with Iron Will IV and Learning I. With a little thought I have sorted out level 2 in the remaining 1st tier learning skills and plan to split learning the adv learning skills with skills that unlock new toys just to break the monotony. The balance of starting skills is fine. There is nothing I have NEEDED that I couldn't quickly train up but plenty of stuff I want that will take me a good half a year to get. I notice alot of whining about the games difficulty by other people from WoW in the Rookie Chat and tbh I am not sad that many of these people find the game inaccessible... After all eve is about long term character development rather than instant gratification.
Maximillian Dragonard	Posted - 2007.12.03 22:35:00 - [154] Originally by: Heskill I am a new player, I recently quit WoW and while looking for something to play gravitated back towards EVE, a game which has intrigued me for some time. I've messed around for a few weeks playing an Amarr, a minmater and have finally settled on a Gallente spec ops build. I started with a rather heavy selection of drone skills. Having put scout drone V on training for a week while they roll out trinity I will be able to use tech 2 drones with just over a week of play. The downside is I start with Iron Will IV and Learning I. With a little thought I have sorted out level 2 in the remaining 1st tier learning skills and plan to split learning the adv learning skills with skills that unlock new toys just to break the monotony. The balance of starting skills is fine. There is nothing I have NEEDED that I couldn't quickly train up but plenty of stuff I want that will take me a good half a year to get. I notice alot of whining about the games difficulty by other people from WoW in the Rookie Chat and tbh I am not sad that many of these people find the game inaccessible... After all eve is about long term character development rather than instant gratification. This is the type WoW player we like
kessah Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.12.03 22:40:00 - [155] tbh uve got it so easy now it aint even funny, we didnt have advanced learning skills and +3's were the best u got not to mention they cost 50-60m each at the time. What you got is crazy good atm - plus this barrier you get through filters out all the WoW / counter strike nubs that can hack the patients of a game like eve. ------ [Video] Forever Pirate 4
Audio Bully	Posted - 2007.12.03 23:18:00 - [156] Edited by: Audio Bully on 03/12/2007 23:18:18 Originally by: kessah tbh uve got it so easy now it aint even funny, we didnt have advanced learning skills and +3's were the best u got not to mention they cost 50-60m each at the time. What you got is crazy good atm - plus this barrier you get through filters out all the WoW / counter strike nubs that can hack the patients of a game like eve. You need a lot of devotion to cs to be anywhere near good i have you know! __________________________________________________ Great being Amarr, Minmatar, and Caldari isn't it?
Henzel	Posted - 2007.12.07 06:54:00 - [157] Originally by: Jhinn Berkut Wow, I guess it is too bad your only line of defense against a clueless newb isn't your own learned skill and knowledge, but just a pointless time sink that protects your ability to click on which skill you want to train next. Hell I'm a new player, and I still get what he means here. It's not about being worried that some clueless noob will own you, it's about being worried that Barrens-chatting toolbars will even play this game. The vertical learning curve (which includes clever use of the learning skills) - if not a protection from a-holes - is at least a protection from dumbasses. In the end; training the learning skills to max or 4 before doing anything else is only very marginally more time-efficient than training them AFTER you get your cruiser set up (about 12 hours difference maybe?). But now at least you're flying a semi-decent boat and you can earn some moneys in missions or ratting, and since the next ship up the progression ladder will cost you triple-digit millions, you'll have something to do while your learning skills tick.
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.12.07 07:57:00 - [158] Originally by: Chaplain Veritas Originally by: Drasked Bottom line, if you cant find the right balance between training the learning skills and training skills that actually make you enjoy the game, you have failed. having to find balances between spending time in a GAME to do something that does nothing for your GAMEplay and spending time doing things that do improve your GAMEplay makes for broken GAME mechanics. learning skills = meter watching. anyone remember that stupid game? can't remember. 'meterquest' or something. some stupid ap that just sat there raising up a meter as you automatically killed stuff. sometimes you'd run in to another "player". but all it was was a meter that went up with time gaining levels, no interaction whatsoever. it kept track of the "top" players and stuff. it was just a pointless little thing. yeah, whenever i think about learning skills it reminds me of that "game". 100% pointless. Ok, in that case don't train the learning skills, nobody is holding a gun to your head or something right? Your saying that it's boring, so my response; don't train them or find the right balance between training them and not being bored, if you cant do this then you must recgonize your level of failure.

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