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Black Ops good on paper, a joke in reality?

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LadyShu Federation of Synthetic Persons STYX.	Posted - 2007.12.14 23:19:00 - [1] I skilled towards blackops right after they were announced by ccp (also cloak 5 as it was a rumour that it would be required for Black Ops sigh) The role of this ship for clandestine operations behind enemy lines sounded perfect to me and my playstyle. I jumped into a panther when they were available on sisi and tried some fittings and tested the ship in general especially the jump drive stuff, i made suggestions in the gamedev forum and discussed with other possible blackop pilots, and in my opinion ccp failed again with a ship for a given role. Tons of testers mentioned that the jumpdrive fueluse is a joke... nothing happened. I got a pretty expensive panther on sisi today and really nothing changed :( - 4 ly jumprange may be enough on the paper... it should be enough to bypass some gatecamps etc, but the system layout of the most systems doesnt allow big jumps, and if so it needs like what? 800+ isotopes?! if you have enough fuel with you for 2 4ly jumps you cant carry much capboosters and very little ammo. - The Jumpbridge is a joke... you cant jump many recons, even if everyone brings in there own fuel, the jumpbridge only holds a few seconds and you really need to work with cans. - The Slot and Grid... Well you have 8 high slots. I tried (at least on the panther) 800er artillerys, 650er etc. doesnt really happen which ACs you fit (dont even think about fitting 1400ers artis...) you get troubles with at least 2 highslots... you need 5 guns, 1 cloak, 1x bridge generator.. impossible if you want a decent tank (if not fitted for speed)... This ship (panther) actually is a limited phoon which can move when cloaked, thats it. And since you cant warp cloaked everyone sees you coming. I dont demand a solo pwn mobil (the dps isnt high enough on this ship for this either...) but for the price of this ship, the very high skill requirements (i guess you can easy go for caps after this ^^) and the limited use its just a waste of isk. My suggestions would be: - more cargospace (more fuel?) or - possibility of warp cloaked (make cov op cloak available to black ops its atm a bs sized recon after all...) or - let them jump 8ly instead 4ly, then people could live with the limitations. I cant see a future for Black Ops if the stay like they are :/ The idea was pretty good and the solo combat functionality is great in blackops, but it really lacks some bonuses for its intended role. sorry for my poor english ... EveTUBE.COM - Your bandwidth will be owned sir.
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.12.15 00:22:00 - [2] I won't undock in this ship until I can fly Ogre IIs. That's a shame about the jump range and fuel requirements, but as for weapons, I can't imagine why you aren't using Ogre IIs, except that you just don't have the skills, like me. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.15 01:05:00 - [3] Even t2 ogres dont help em. Those are T2 BS that cant actually kill t2 fit t1 BS, can rip apart BCs (commands MIGHT be a problem sometimes) and cant kill smaller ships due to fugly lock time (oh he decloaks, lets warp away). Was playing with redeemer but in the end... ill just take normal geddon.
Warrio Mining Bytes Inc. Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.15 01:33:00 - [4] I believe their intended purpose was to move behind enemy lines in order to work in conjuction with a main fleet as opposed to moving behind enemy lines and killing every mother f***ing thing they see. Sig removed due to being too freaking awsome. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Deckard Cain
Fault24x Minmatar Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2007.12.15 01:45:00 - [5] exactly. If these ships could jump where they please and kick ass they would be ridiculous. They are a niche role ship and should remain that way.
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.12.15 01:53:00 - [6] Originally by: Fault24x exactly. If these ships could jump where they please and kick ass they would be ridiculous. They are a niche role ship and should remain that way. this. Plus a healthy dose of pre-nerf, as is required for all drastically new ships with completely new roles. Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
3nkil The Chocolate Factory	Posted - 2007.12.15 02:04:00 - [7] so you want a ship that can avoid gate camps- yet wtfbbq a normal t2 fit BS? how about no?
achoura	Posted - 2007.12.15 02:11:00 - [8] Creating multpile identical threads usualy results in an mod + click m8 *The EVE servers and their patches*
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.15 16:13:00 - [9] Originally by: 3nkil so you want a ship that can avoid gate camps- yet wtfbbq a normal t2 fit BS? how about no? You have no chance in hell to evade gatecamp in sth that barely moves 1km/s with MWD (even with mwd+cloak trick). Before they move from position after cloaking tacklers will be on them and decloak em.
Raxxius Maelstrom	Posted - 2007.12.15 16:46:00 - [10] yeah... but they can just jump past them.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.15 17:34:00 - [11] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: 3nkil so you want a ship that can avoid gate camps- yet wtfbbq a normal t2 fit BS? how about no? You have no chance in hell to evade gatecamp in sth that barely moves 1km/s with MWD (even with mwd+cloak trick). Before they move from position after cloaking tacklers will be on them and decloak em. How about jumping past gate camps yea? --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.15 17:44:00 - [12] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: 3nkil so you want a ship that can avoid gate camps- yet wtfbbq a normal t2 fit BS? how about no? You have no chance in hell to evade gatecamp in sth that barely moves 1km/s with MWD (even with mwd+cloak trick). Before they move from position after cloaking tacklers will be on them and decloak em. How about jumping past gate camps yea? ANyways... even if you jump past gatecamp... what you want to accomplish with that ship what other ships cant do?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.15 17:49:00 - [13] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: 3nkil so you want a ship that can avoid gate camps- yet wtfbbq a normal t2 fit BS? how about no? You have no chance in hell to evade gatecamp in sth that barely moves 1km/s with MWD (even with mwd+cloak trick). Before they move from position after cloaking tacklers will be on them and decloak em. How about jumping past gate camps yea? ANyways... even if you jump past gatecamp... what you want to accomplish with that ship what other ships cant do? You can get past 0.0 entry point, then jack up people behind enemy lines thinking its safe to join or leave the main camp. Use your imagination, and there isnt really anything wrong with the fighting capabilities of a blackop BS... --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Ariel Dawn Beets and Gravy Syndicate Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.12.15 17:52:00 - [14] Originally by: 3nkil so you want a ship that can avoid gate camps- yet wtfbbq a normal t2 fit BS? how about no? A Widow can do this pretty easily in a 1v1 situation. The Panther is pretty bad in comparison to the Sin/Widow, can't comment on the Redeemer as I'm not familiar with it.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.15 17:55:00 - [15] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: 3nkil so you want a ship that can avoid gate camps- yet wtfbbq a normal t2 fit BS? how about no? You have no chance in hell to evade gatecamp in sth that barely moves 1km/s with MWD (even with mwd+cloak trick). Before they move from position after cloaking tacklers will be on them and decloak em. How about jumping past gate camps yea? ANyways... even if you jump past gatecamp... what you want to accomplish with that ship what other ships cant do? You mean what no other ship but a Titan can do?
twit brent Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.12.17 03:07:00 - [16] I have tried to get through 2 gate camps so far in mine and on both occasions my ship just couldnt jump far enough. Most camps are on gates connecting regions and are way too far for a blackops to jump. Im yet to find someone with cyno field op lvl 5 in my alliance to use covert cyno. Fuel usage is way too high to be jumping any decent size group of recons arround. Starting to feel I wasted alot of isk.
Varrakk Phantom Squad Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.17 10:36:00 - [17] Most of these ships need more CPU and a separate fuel bay. Maybe even a 3ly base jump distance.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 11:01:00 - [18] Originally by: Varrakk Most of these ships need more CPU and a separate fuel bay. Maybe even a 3ly base jump distance. More jump distance and a separate fuel bay would solve stuff, why are people against covert cloaks on the black ops bs anyways? It's great being Amarr isn't it. Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
Glarion Garnier Solar Wind STELLAR LEGION	Posted - 2007.12.17 11:56:00 - [19] I like the sound of the fuel bay for this ship. -RonP 2008-
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:21:00 - [20] - Seperate jumpfuel bay - A little longer jumprange - Take away the scan resolution penalty for fitting a cloak
FraXy 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:35:00 - [21] Originally by: TZeer - Seperate jumpfuel bay - A little longer jumprange - Take away the scan resolution penalty for fitting a cloak Sums it up nicely. But i just expect they are a bit pre-nerfed and will be balanced soonÖ. One man's junk is FraXy's choice of weapon to kill you with.
Varrakk Phantom Squad Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.17 15:45:00 - [22] Will take alot of time to get these fixed. Still very few that can fly these ships. And even fewer that can with the portal.
Telonia Reis	Posted - 2007.12.17 15:59:00 - [23] Hmmm, I really think the fitting needs to be a bit different for these ships than the standard tank/gank. You can reasonably get your panther up to 1km/sec cloaked, and if you spend some money 2.2km/sec cloaked will make this thing a serious pain with some off-grid safe spots.
Liam Fremen Gallente Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.	Posted - 2007.12.17 16:02:00 - [24] Well the main point is that they cant's make these ships able to warp cloaked, if you check it all recon are very very very very limitated on killing stuff, some from dps other from range, but they are not made for solo work even if it works at same with some brain using ^^ If for exemple they make a Dominix, even a bit "nerfed" that can warp around cloaked even with malus to re-locking range, you would have a ship able to break too many tanks :) thing that an arazu have hard time doing... Btw, for the rest i agree, they should have 5ly base jumprange, like dreads and a fuel consumption that give you the ability to send at least 20 ppl inside enemy space. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Check me out! I'm so badass that i scare off myself!
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.12.17 18:08:00 - [25] Edited by: madaluap on 17/12/2007 18:09:17 Atm im just concerned in the sin, maybe panther in couple months. But the sin seems awesome. Corpmate of mine allready worked out a lot of sweet setups. Im just waiting till the prices drop, allthough i can allready use the portal and ship itself. Seems like the pwnmobile i allways wanted /edit: how many people can you exactly jump around atm? _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
FraXy 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.12.17 18:34:00 - [26] Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 17/12/2007 18:09:17 Atm im just concerned in the sin, maybe panther in couple months. But the sin seems awesome. Corpmate of mine allready worked out a lot of sweet setups. Im just waiting till the prices drop, allthough i can allready use the portal and ship itself. Seems like the pwnmobile i allways wanted /edit: how many people can you exactly jump around atm? Read some stuff on SHC about 3 recons`ish and maybe 1-2 frigates, if that.. So not many and you would need good logistics prepared before-hand to get you anywhere. One man's junk is FraXy's choice of weapon to kill you with.
Kaaii Caldari Kaaii-Net Research Labs	Posted - 2007.12.17 18:41:00 - [27] Well My widow came out of the factory today, and I sat, starreing at the blank fitting screen wondering what to put on it. I have a "pretty decent" skill set to draw from. I'm maxed in EW, Cyno 5, been Caldari dread/carrier capable for over a year now, so aside from Black opts 2-5 I have a short list of what to train to make use of it. Im "full" missle spec'd as well, plenty of support engineering skills, and shields are towards the top of the playing field. So that being said... High slots - 5x CM 2 Launchers 1x COCD 1x CO portal generator Mids - Hear I'm thinking task dependant. I full rack of 5x DG ECM multispecs gives me around 18 strength if I did the math right. So, dedicating 4-6 slots for jammers Then maybe a Sensor Booster II Large Shield Booster II/faction Inv shield II Some mix of stuff I haven't really decided on. Lows, only 4 slots, but - BCU II Dist Amp II DCU II ? ------------ Id like to know about the jumping part though. Im assuming I need a cyno field "ahead" of me to jump to, I can't just click on map spot in range and jump can I?? I haven't gotten a portal generator made yet, factory says 2 days still for a few, I do have the CO-Cyno gen, which I can fit in place of one of the Cms I guess. The Op's notes about the fuel concern me. Don't know if skills will midiagate the amount far enough(?) down to be able to sustain operations for more than a few jumps. Ive not been on test server to check all this out, so I'm kinda lost on the mechanics of the portal/jump stuff. Thoughts? (Oh and goons, once this is nailed down, say hello to me and a few of my little friends, deep in your back yeard ) Thanks in advance.. K According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.12.17 19:07:00 - [28] Edited by: madaluap on 17/12/2007 19:08:23 Originally by: FraXy Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 17/12/2007 18:09:17 Atm im just concerned in the sin, maybe panther in couple months. But the sin seems awesome. Corpmate of mine allready worked out a lot of sweet setups. Im just waiting till the prices drop, allthough i can allready use the portal and ship itself. Seems like the pwnmobile i allways wanted /edit: how many people can you exactly jump around atm? Read some stuff on SHC about 3 recons`ish and maybe 1-2 frigates, if that.. So not many and you would need good logistics prepared before-hand to get you anywhere. oowwww DAMN, thats what i call PRE nerfing CCP. A 600-700 mil ship to build, not insurable ship. Combined with a skillrequirment that only maxed out bs + capital + recon pilot can use. To move around 3-4 recons? LOL...atleast 10 recons, minimum! Allthough 15 would be decent. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
FraXy 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.12.17 19:34:00 - [29] Seperate jumpfuel-bay seems like a good answer, but might allow to use both the designated fuel-bay and the cargo space which might be overpowered in the eyes of CCP. Just hope the people that will be balancing them for proper use got some TQ experience and make the neccessary changes. One man's junk is FraXy's choice of weapon to kill you with.
Odium47	Posted - 2007.12.17 19:37:00 - [30] LoL, still thinking "balshoi" style ? Only americans and russians have imperial mentality, only they like things to be big. Black Ops are for one purpose missions, not for gate campers. If you want to avoid a gate camp, get a Dread/Carrier + buddies to break them, or a fast ship to evade them. It has 125% speed under cloak...what else do you need ???
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.12.17 19:45:00 - [31] Originally by: Odium47 Black Ops are for one purpose missions, not for gate campers. I could barely detect it. But this is some very hard to detect sarcasm. Expect flaming. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.12.17 20:05:00 - [32] Originally by: Odium47 Black Ops are for one purpose missions, not for gate campers. your thinking about marauders i think
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.12.17 20:29:00 - [33] Originally by: slothe Originally by: Odium47 Black Ops are for one purpose missions, not for gate campers. your thinking about marauders i think Originally by: Odium47 It has 125% speed under cloak...what else do you need ??? Im not sure... _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.17 20:43:00 - [34] Originally by: twit brent I have tried to get through 2 gate camps so far in mine and on both occasions my ship just couldnt jump far enough. Most camps are on gates connecting regions and are way too far for a blackops to jump. Im yet to find someone with cyno field op lvl 5 in my alliance to use covert cyno. Fuel usage is way too high to be jumping any decent size group of recons arround. Starting to feel I wasted alot of isk. You cant find way how to use Blackops? PPL who responded to me said they can evade gatecamps easily O_O /sarcasm Yes thats what i had on my mind. Slow, mediciore tank/gank ability, weak logistics ability, short jump range, fuel problems, lock time problems, speed problems (due to mass), price tag(?). Atm they are waaaaay pre-nerfed to be of any decent use. ofc s1 will jump in in a moment saying "its so good coz he killed s1 and moved 2-3 recons to jump onto unsuspecting solo bs" but tbh opening cyno and jumping in carrier instead of covops BS would be more fun. And price tag is almost same (think abt carrier insurance ;p).
Aeaus The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2007.12.17 21:45:00 - [35] I'm not too sure about fuel being a problem, recons have fairly large cargo bays and there's hardly anything stopping an organized group from each dropping a can with the amount of jump fuel they need and the Black Ops constantly refilling. Yes, it's annoying, but it's not a game breaker. A separate fuel hangar would solve this problem, or even a skill to further reduce the fuel cost (Does Jump Portal Generation have an effect on the covert one?) to something more suitable. The real problem is, IMHO simply an issue of jump distance. Bring it back up at least to 4 LY, if not as high as a carrier. With all the other gimps to the class, at least they should give the benefit of high mobility. But, I think the skill requirements should be even more severe, as it stands now, a carrier pilot can hop into one in less then a month of training.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.17 21:46:00 - [36] Never thought they would be this pre-nerfed, seems ccp fear battleships, both the marauders and cov ops where sort of meh... It's great being Amarr isn't it. Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:12:00 - [37] I'm going to give CCP a concession on this one and assume that Black Ops ships came into the game heavily pre-nerfed, because as it stands now they are nearly useless. They can't hold enough fuel more more than a couple jumps... and that requires nearly all their cargo space. The jump range is horrible as well. Add to this the fact that they can be seen in local and it's more like a 'Very Light Gray Ops' ship. This is my thread on fixing local to make them more useful - Read it here. My crusade for faster missiles.
UGLYUGLY	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:21:00 - [38] Edited by: UGLYUGLY on 17/12/2007 22:22:02 I was talking with some people, they say it would be the next must have ships for isk farmers. Use the jump drive to go into and out of 0.0 when your out of ammo, in danger or full of loot. I don't know how viable it is, haven't tested one myself (no where close to being able to either I some how don't think this is what it was made for
Velox Idolon	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:24:00 - [39] the panther can get an alpha of 6.3-4k without counting wreckings, the redeemer can get about a 5k alpha and 1000ish dps, the sin about 4 and a bit thousand alpha (all at 50km), and the widow can do about 900 dps while also having a 450dps tank and 4 jammers fitted (torp range). they aren't meant to tank :)
Swiftness Caldari VMF-214 Blacksheep	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:28:00 - [40] Panther, or how i spent 800M+ for bumping people around by surprise
Aeaus The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:32:00 - [41] Originally by: Velox Idolon the panther can get an alpha of 6.3-4k without counting wreckings, the redeemer can get about a 5k alpha and 1000ish dps, the sin about 4 and a bit thousand alpha (all at 50km), and the widow can do about 900 dps while also having a 450dps tank and 4 jammers fitted (torp range). they aren't meant to tank :) I think you're far off there. A Redeemer with 6 x Mega Pulse IIs, 3 x Heat Sink IIs, and 5 x Ogre IIs can pull 1050 DPS, but only 2383 in Alpha Strike. Whereas with Tachyons (good luck fitting these) it can break the 1K DPS barrier, but with 3574 Alpha Strike. I agree though, they're not meant to be heavy tanking ships, but, they need some buffer before your recon group can disable the target(s).
Velox Idolon	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:37:00 - [42] tachyons aren't hard to fit :), need 2 t2 ACR rigs and -5% turret cpu implant, which on a ship worth this much is not too much to spend imo (also am using 5% turret damage and 5% energy/proj/hybrid turret damage implants for the calcs). tactic : decloak having had target painted and webbed by huginn, alpha, recloak, wait and repeat :)
Aeaus The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:46:00 - [43] Uhm, yea, I mean, that's over the top for calculations. T2 ACRs? Maximum Alpha Focused Implants? Why don't you go out and actually buy all that, fit it, and then come back claiming how rigs which cost 400M+ a piece aren't too expensive for this paperweight.
Ally Poo Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:55:00 - [44] omg, blackops i see are perfect. jump past that gate camp and get every other ewar ship in with it and sealthbombers. insta pop those frigs with SB's, jam a few primarys and wait for the main fleet to jump threw and facking pwn everything while your targets are trying to kill your ewar ships. if black ops could warp cloaked that would make them toooo good. plus u get that no targeting delay after decloak and the speed boost. i have no clue if i just made sence but really, when i saw the widow, i fell in love. blackops are fine the way they are.
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.12.17 22:58:00 - [45] Quote: Only americans and russians have imperial mentality, only they like things to be big. WTF? Back to school, kid. I don't want to see the damage boosted, as Black Ops shouldn't be 'jump behind enemy lines and pwn stuff solo' ships, but they do need dedicated fuel bays, and a slightly longer jump radius, and the ability to get more than a couple other ships through their portals.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2007.12.17 23:27:00 - [46] Originally by: Aeaus Uhm, yea, I mean, that's over the top for calculations. T2 ACRs? Maximum Alpha Focused Implants? Why don't you go out and actually buy all that, fit it, and then come back claiming how rigs which cost 400M+ a piece aren't too expensive for this paperweight. Now now Aeaus, be nice to the brave little EFT forum warrior. Originally by: Odium47 LoL, still thinking "balshoi" style ? Only americans and russians have imperial mentality, only they like things to be big. I'm sorry, what? Do you actually believe that stereotype or are you just a troll? Really mate, stop reading the weekly manifesto and try getting some actual life experience, would do you wonders. Taxman IV: Rogue Agent
Varrakk Phantom Squad Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:07:00 - [47] Blackops Summary: The Consept: Infiltrate and disruption in hostile terretory, with a guerilla/wolfpack squad (3-5ships). The flaws: Operatoin Lifetime - Fuel, fuel and fuel become a massive hindrance. Jump Drive/Portal costs too much, too low capacity for fuel. Jump Range - 2ly is too short, with Jump Calibration 4, you can jump 4ly. Fitting issues - CPU Shortage, I only have experience with Panther/Redeemer. But both could use +50cpu. Doable to fit Cloak/Portal. If you add a Covert Cyno gen ship gets problems. Sollution: Separate fuelbay, for Jump Drive and Jump Portal Increased jump range, 3ly base would make this ship alot more flexible. With 4ly range its too easy to predict where they jump. Fuel use reduction, 1-2 jumps wont get this ship far. And it certainly cant bring along a few friends. For this ship to really shine, it should be Able to do 3-5 jumps, and bring along 2-3 Cruiser and 2-3 Frigate class ships.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.12.18 10:46:00 - [48] The Redeemer is the only one that seems to have a huge amount of value. Fit it with Tachyons to go to town at long range. To get past a hostile gate camp, you just have a recon ship run the camp, warp to a safe spot, and cyno you in. You can then just proceed to the system you want in enemy territory since they're unlikely to have gate camps in successive systems. You recon friend finds and tackles the target and you warp in at 100 to toast it. The NOS/damp nerfs have made it hard for recons to solo battleships, but they can easily tackle it for you to shoot. If hostiles show up, you can both just cloak immediately. The recon can warp while cloaked and they're not going to get within 2km of you starting from 100km away. Solo, the Redeemer can sit 100-150km off the gate and just try to blast things that jump through. You could even deploy a bubble on the gate, move to 150km out, and blast bigger ships that try to run for the edge. Remember, when they enter system all they will see is the bubble, they won't see your black ops ship. If anything nasty shows up you can just cloak. The other three blackops just don't seem that useful. The Widow can jam, but jamming is not what you need here. A Falcon can do the jamming just fine, you need something that adds DPS, something that the recons CAN'T do. The Sin has to abandon its drones at the first sight of trouble. The Panther moves really fast for a battleship, but the DPS output is terrible.
General Cane Federation of Synthetic Persons	Posted - 2007.12.18 10:51:00 - [49] in my opinion the only real pwn black op (not from dps or so but from usability) is the widow with its ew power
Trind2222 Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:09:00 - [50] Edited by: Trind2222 on 18/12/2007 11:13:46 Originally by: Xequecal The Redeemer is the only one that seems to have a huge amount of value. Fit it with Tachyons to go to town at long range. To get past a hostile gate camp, you just have a recon ship run the camp, warp to a safe spot, and cyno you in. You can then just proceed to the system you want in enemy territory since they're unlikely to have gate camps in successive systems. You recon friend finds and tackles the target and you warp in at 100 to toast it. The NOS/damp nerfs have made it hard for recons to solo battleships, but they can easily tackle it for you to shoot. If hostiles show up, you can both just cloak immediately. The recon can warp while cloaked and they're not going to get within 2km of you starting from 100km away. Solo, the Redeemer can sit 100-150km off the gate and just try to blast things that jump through. You could even deploy a bubble on the gate, move to 150km out, and blast bigger ships that try to run for the edge. Remember, when they enter system all they will see is the bubble, they won't see your black ops ship. If anything nasty shows up you can just cloak. The other three blackops just don't seem that useful. The Widow can jam, but jamming is not what you need here. A Falcon can do the jamming just fine, you need something that adds DPS, something that the recons CAN'T do. The Sin has to abandon its drones at the first sight of trouble. The Panther moves really fast for a battleship, but the DPS output is terrible. You must RCU to fit Tachyons. This is a EFT setup all is LVL5 can't fly a blackops but i got to this setup on EFT. 5 Mega Beams II Aura L Improved Cloaking Device II 2 sensor booster II Target range script 1 Sensor booster II Target speed script 100 mwd 1 damage control II 3 HS II 3 Tacking Enchanter II This unproven setup fly it at own risk.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:16:00 - [51] Originally by: Ally Poo omg, blackops i see are perfect. jump past that gate camp and get every other ewar ship in with it and sealthbombers. insta pop those frigs with SB's, jam a few primarys and wait for the main fleet to jump threw and facking pwn everything while your targets are trying to kill your ewar ships. if black ops could warp cloaked that would make them toooo good. plus u get that no targeting delay after decloak and the speed boost. i have no clue if i just made sence but really, when i saw the widow, i fell in love. blackops are fine the way they are. Are you high, or did you just not read the thread? And when did you fly a SB last, you do know the only thing that die to those are T1 frigs and ceptors standing still with their mwd on? It's great being Amarr isn't it. Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
Minerva Moore	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:15:00 - [52] Funny. People always cry for more "diversity" and "variety" in Eve. Then a new shiptype shows up. It's quite obviously a niche ship, with a few specific and very fleet-oriented uses. In other words, a new tactical toolbox. Limited but potentially powerful. But of course everyone cries bloody murder 'cause they aren't yet another solo-wtfpwnmobile. So much for diversity, eh? Sure black-ops are a little pre-nerfed, anything else would be dumb, but these were never meant as a perfect tool for sologankers to pwn stuff. I dunno why people expect that of every new shiptype. Possibly 'cause the fleet-pvp folks pwn rather than post.
Minerva Moore	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:17:00 - [53] Originally by: Dristra It's great being Amarr isn't it. Yes it is. You get to whine as much as you like and nobody can say anything 'cause your ships suck.
Waxau The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:30:00 - [54] Tbh, when i first heard about Black Ops, i expected them to be BS Recon Ships. I was wrong. With the lack of ability to fit a Cov Ops Cloak, theyre just as vulnerable as stealth bombers to a gang - Fair enough...can JUST about live with that, as theyre GANG ships. However, to me it doesnt make sense, seeing as how theyre supposed to go behind enemy lines, and be rather effective and infiltrating. As for the jump portal stuff, and jump range. Tbh, that sounds a bit crappy to me. Having said that, the way round that is get gang mates to bring you fuel. Despite this however, i do actually think BOBS (Muhahaha) could do with a decrease in fuel requirements (to stop them being damn good haulers, with a cargo bay extension) and also jump range increase. Its not an I-Win button imo, cos any decent gang will catch it. But from my first conceptions of BOBS, i expected to be able to jump into a system, and warp to a belt cloaked, take out a ratter, and then cloak and warp out. For a 1 bil BS, it should have a certain strength to it, for those who are willing to RISK it. But if you remove that 1 bil value, it is overpowered. Folks need to keep price in mind imo.
LadyShu Federation of Synthetic Persons STYX.	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:33:00 - [55] Edited by: LadyShu on 18/12/2007 12:35:07 Quote: But of course everyone cries bloody murder 'cause they aren't yet another solo-wtfpwnmobile. So much for diversity, eh? Hello? Read before you flame. Nobody here wanted another "SOLOPWNMOBILE", nobody cries for more dps etc. All we (as Black Op Pilots and testers...) want is a LITTLE BIT more jumprange, nothing else, do you get it? And hell yes turn on your brain damnit. Its a niche ship, BUT where is the point in such a ship when it cant do its job... we dont need expensive battleships with cloak who make suicide in fleet operations. ... EveTUBE.COM - Your bandwidth will be owned sir.
Minerva Moore	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:37:00 - [56] Originally by: LadyShu Quote: But of course everyone cries bloody murder 'cause they aren't yet another solo-wtfpwnmobile. So much for diversity, eh? Hello? Read before you flame. Nobody here wanted another "SOLOPWNMOBILE", nobody cries for more dps etc. All we (as Black Op Pilots and testers...) want is a LITTLE BIT more jumprange, nothing else, do you get it? Really? Take your own medicine and read the post just above yours. Originally by: Waxau i expected to be able to jump into a system, and warp to a belt cloaked, take out a ratter, and then cloak and warp out. That is asking for a solopwnmobile.
LadyShu Federation of Synthetic Persons STYX.	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:39:00 - [57] he posted after you, but most people who answered just whine about the jump issue and thats the problem after all. You probably never used a black-op and say we want i-win ships. Bull**** ... EveTUBE.COM - Your bandwidth will be owned sir.
Minerva Moore	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:44:00 - [58] Originally by: LadyShu he posted after you, but most people who answered just whine about the jump issue and thats the problem after all. You probably never used a black-op and say we want i-win ships. Bull**** He posted before you told me nobody was asking for a solopwnmobile though. And if you refer back you see the whines about how blackops cant pwn a t2 fitted t1 bs. Well... No, I've never flown a BO. So what? It doesn't take that to understand it is a fleet oriented, special purpose ship. Guess I'll just sit back and wait for a thread complaining that electronic frigs are useless cause they can't pwn intys or sologank freighters.
LadyShu Federation of Synthetic Persons STYX.	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:50:00 - [59] Quote: No, I've never flown a BO. So what? It doesn't take that to understand it is a fleet oriented, special purpose ship. Hell yes it does because then you would know wtf are you talking about! Even in a fleet its a expensive sh1tload of a BS with a damn cloak who cant jump anywhere because of its limited jumprage, get that damnit! And wtf do you think should it do after the jump hu? intel? sorry the recon/covop used to open the cyno can do this for the fleet.. tank and bait? uh wait... no it cant (should not be able to anyway)... I give up on you, whine on about whiners... I aggree with you about the guys wanting a i-win ship BUT there is stil the fact that there is NO "niche role" for this ship with its pre-nerfed stats... ... EveTUBE.COM - Your bandwidth will be owned sir.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:55:00 - [60] I haven't flown the BO ships yet (but getting there). My impressions by looking at the specs and after talking with people, is that fundamentally the idea is sound: bypass a gate camp, jump in a recon gang, perform in support role (some DPS / EW, but definitely a gang ship). However, it's obvious that the implementation leaves much to be desired. The jump range is much too small, the fuel use (esp. the fuel use of the jump bridge) is way too high, the jump bridge is active for a ridiculously short time, there are CPU issues... the list goes on. Here's hoping CCP does a slight un-nerf on these, sometime soon.
Minerva Moore	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:10:00 - [61] Originally by: LadyShu Quote: No, I've never flown a BO. So what? It doesn't take that to understand it is a fleet oriented, special purpose ship. Hell yes it does because then you would know wtf are you talking about! Even in a fleet its a expensive sh1tload of a BS with a damn cloak who cant jump anywhere because of its limited jumprage, get that damnit! And wtf do you think should it do after the jump hu? intel? sorry the recon/covop used to open the cyno can do this for the fleet.. tank and bait? uh wait... no it cant (should not be able to anyway)... My, aren't we getting emotional. I agree that they are pre-nerfed but that's to be expected and it's sensible. My point was that the expectations on these ships (hence the disappointment and whines) don't seem to match what they are supposed to do. I don't think i need to fly one to see that. About jumprange: already the devblog where they were first presented stated black ops are "Equipped with a jump drive, they can jump short distances past enemy blockades." So the idea is to bypass camps not, as you all ask for, jump deep into red terrotiry (to sologank ratters i presume). About what they are supposed to "do there": From that same, first blog, "What makes the Black Ops in particular dangerous is that they can use miniaturized jump portal generators, Covert Jump Portal Generators, to sneak allied forces behind enemy lines." (my emphasis) So mainly the idea is to get a small gang past a camped system. I didn't see any complaints from you who "know wtf you're talking about" that BO aren't capable of doing exactly this. Maybe you can't see any fleet advantage to this capability, but I'm sure others can.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:23:00 - [62] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 18/12/2007 13:23:09 Originally by: Minerva Moore So mainly the idea is to get a small gang past a camped system. I didn't see any complaints from you who "know wtf you're talking about" that BO aren't capable of doing exactly this. Maybe you can't see any fleet advantage to this capability, but I'm sure others can. The problem is, afaik, that due to the current fuel needs that "small gang" means "2-3 recons", and it's a one-way trip. That isn't enough to justify the ship, yet, especially since recons are pretty good at sneaking past gate camps on their own, too. With some tweaks, I see these ships as being fine and useful, but currently they are heavily prenerfed.
Minerva Moore	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:44:00 - [63] Originally by: Alex Harumichi The problem is, afaik, that due to the current fuel needs that "small gang" means "2-3 recons", and it's a one-way trip. That isn't enough to justify the ship, yet, especially since recons are pretty good at sneaking past gate camps on their own, too. With some tweaks, I see these ships as being fine and useful, but currently they are heavily prenerfed. Fair enough. And for the third time of course they are pre-nerfed. Anything else would be stupid. So maybe the answer is a balancing of the BO in time. Perhaps the answer is, as somebody suggested elsewhere, that blockade runners can jump covert portals, carrying extra fuel (that would also create a more interesting tactical configuration of the inserted gang). But the massive disappointment here and elsewhere seem to come from people spending weeks of training and billions of isk, hoping to get an Apache and instead recieving a Blackhawk. Which of course could have been avoided by reading rather than hoping (and by expecting a pre-nerf).
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:45:00 - [64] What those things need is some heavy duty secondary racial ewar. Widow looks good , probably still not strong enough for a T2 ECM boat. With a bonus to nos / scram / web range for other blackops , they would fullfil their role as shock troopers much better. Of course they would be primaried whenever they decloak , but this would make for nice combined arms work with logistics and snipers.
Waxau The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:06:00 - [65] Originally by: Minerva Moore Originally by: Waxau i expected to be able to jump into a system, and warp to a belt cloaked, take out a ratter, and then cloak and warp out. That is asking for a solopwnmobile. In many ways id agree - But hey, if we dont have overpowered things, there would be less variety :P But anyhow - Imo, a bil isk ship, in a HQ system is a large risk for a bil isk BS. Not a bad trade imo.
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:53:00 - [66] 1: Warp while cloaked? No, would have been fun, but overpowered. 2: Longer jumprange? Maybe. 3: Bigger cargo or seperate fuelbay? Yes, right now it`s like a one way trip into hostile space with no return ticket for your gang. 4: Take away the cloak penalty? Yes, you dont have lockingdelay after decloaking, but the cloak still ****s up your lockingtime...
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:09:00 - [67] Originally by: TZeer 1: Warp while cloaked? No, would have been fun, but overpowered. Totally agree. Originally by: TZeer 2: Longer jumprange? Maybe. Yeah. Not much longer, but a bit. Originally by: TZeer 3: Bigger cargo or seperate fuelbay? Yes, right now it`s like a one way trip into hostile space with no return ticket for your gang. Exactly. This is the most important issue. If they can't gate in a reasonable-sized recon gang and also jump everyone out, they won't work in their intended role. A one-way trip for a couple of ships doesn't cut it. Originally by: TZeer 4: Take away the cloak penalty? Yes, you dont have lockingdelay after decloaking, but the cloak still ****s up your lockingtime... Yeah, this seem more like an overlooked detail to me, rather than an intended factor.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.18 16:22:00 - [68] Originally by: TZeer 1: Warp while cloaked? No, would have been fun, but overpowered. 2: Longer jumprange? Maybe. 3: Bigger cargo or seperate fuelbay? Yes, right now it`s like a one way trip into hostile space with no return ticket for your gang. 4: Take away the cloak penalty? Yes, you dont have lockingdelay after decloaking, but the cloak still ****s up your lockingtime... This pretty much sums it up. Have to agree with all of it. However, CCP generally moves very slowly to buff ships... and these obviously came into the game heavily pre-nerfed. Who knows when we'll ever see these ships 'adjusted'. Combine these currently useless, niche ships with the fact that any untrained alt can see one in local and they are a massive waste of isk at the moment. (Pitch some opinions in in this thread on Black Ops and local.) My crusade for faster missiles.
LaffyTaffy TR	Posted - 2007.12.18 16:29:00 - [69] Can they ice mine? If they cant then i call worthless
Absolom Hues	Posted - 2007.12.18 16:44:00 - [70] Originally by: TZeer 1: Warp while cloaked? No, would have been fun, but overpowered. 2: Longer jumprange? Maybe. 3: Bigger cargo or seperate fuelbay? Yes, right now it`s like a one way trip into hostile space with no return ticket for your gang. 4: Take away the cloak penalty? Yes, you dont have lockingdelay after decloaking, but the cloak still ****s up your lockingtime...
Waxau The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.18 16:45:00 - [71] So - let me get this straight... Cov op frig goes into hostile system HQ Launches Cov Cyno Field Black Op BS (With rest of the fleet) launches the Jump Bridge Fleet jump into hostile HQ, bypassing all gate camps. Whats not good about that? Or have i got it wrong?
Velox Idolon	Posted - 2007.12.18 17:05:00 - [72] Originally by: Waxau So - let me get this straight... Cov op frig goes into hostile system HQ Launches Cov Cyno Field Black Op BS (With rest of the fleet) launches the Jump Bridge Fleet jump into hostile HQ, bypassing all gate camps. Whats not good about that? Or have i got it wrong? The black ops jump bridge only works with Covert ops and Recon ships afaik. btw, panther setup: high: 5x 1400mm t2 arty w/ republic fleet emp, improved cloak t2, covert jump portal, covert cyno med: 100mn mwd t2, med electrochem cap booster, 2xsensor booster w/lock time scrips, 1 tracking comp with tracking speed script low: rcu t2, 3 gyro t2, 2 tracking enhancer t2 rigs: ACR t1, sentry damage augmentor t1 drones: 5 t2 garde sentries fits with +3% cpu, -5% turret cpu implants, and i also used +5% all turret damage and +5% tracking speed, max skills (so subtract a bit of damage or w/e but the basic fit remains sound) with this you get an alpha of 6128 and if you are stupid enough to remain uncloaked for long 823 dps. As far as I see it these ships are meant to go around in a small group with a few recons (ideally arazu and rapier) and just decloak and alpha targets, or fire recloak and then decloak again when they have fired.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.18 17:51:00 - [73] Originally by: Waxau So - let me get this straight... Cov op frig goes into hostile system HQ Launches Cov Cyno Field Black Op BS (With rest of the fleet) launches the Jump Bridge Fleet jump into hostile HQ, bypassing all gate camps. Whats not good about that? Or have i got it wrong? Almost: "hostile HQ" needs to be around 1-3 system away from gatecamp so you can actually reach it (short jump range) - and camps are usually 123 jumps away "fleet" = 2-3 recons + covops BS.
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.18 18:15:00 - [74] Originally by: Minerva Moore About jumprange: already the devblog where they were first presented stated black ops are "Equipped with a jump drive, they can jump short distances past enemy blockades." So the idea is to bypass camps not, as you all ask for, jump deep into red terrotiry (to sologank ratters i presume). About what they are supposed to "do there": From that same, first blog, "What makes the Black Ops in particular dangerous is that they can use miniaturized jump portal generators, Covert Jump Portal Generators, to sneak allied forces behind enemy lines." (my emphasis) So mainly the idea is to get a small gang past a camped system. I didn't see any complaints from you who "know wtf you're talking about" that BO aren't capable of doing exactly this. Maybe you can't see any fleet advantage to this capability, but I'm sure others can. yeah and this is where, what CCP writes and what is in the game is FUBAR. basically there are 2 types of blockades, inter-region like 0.0 Choke system gate camps with large distances between two systems, where a BO would like to get his gang past and intra-region, which are typically short distances between ajoining systems. Now, because of the reported low jump range, you basically can't get past the first 1 and can only hope to get a senario like the second, which will happen in POS/combat/siege stuff in 0.0. But the nonsense here is that only a few ships can get bridged in and to refuel the BO you need to decloak and pop a jet can to do a transfer. so there are some real limitations which make this type of "niche" play useless to really fight your opponent who will out number you. Besides the KM *****s and the ganktards, most of us invisioned a way around the suicidial jump and pray, where a bunch of people De-synch at a gate and its pretty much crap game play. We thought it would be a powerful tool to quickly get in recon's, bombers to break up those types of camps and reinvigorate the russian roulette that has become the main stay of large fleet combat. Hope CCP is listening and makes the appropriate changes.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2007.12.18 18:16:00 - [75] Originally by: Deva Blackfire "hostile HQ" needs to be around 1-3 system away from gatecamp so you can actually reach it (short jump range) - and camps are usually 123 jumps away "fleet" = 2-3 recons + covops BS. Well yeah, what more do you need? I mean you are only attacking your enemy's HQ. Three recons and a low-dps (but very tactically useful!) BS should be able to do that, right? But supposing your major 4-man fleet couldn't bust the POS or waste the enemy fleet by themselves (obviously they could, but still for argument's sake), you could just have the recon fleet single-handedly bust up the gatecamp to allow another fleet to come in and kill the enemy HQ. I don't see what peoples' problems are with this ship? It works out fine on EFT.... Taxman IV: Rogue Agent
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2007.12.19 05:20:00 - [76] I bought a panther and portal today. One thing I can say about this ship is that the jump range leaves a bit to be desired. I can deal with that, honestly. What gripes me is the fuel consumption of the portal AND my own jump drive. I don't really care much about anything else. I can deal with not being able to warp cloaked but I'd like to be able to use my ship once its at the destination. "why is that transport ship coming through our space, sir?" "be on the lookout for black ops ships coming into the area, lad?" "don't worry, we got it with an interdictor... look at all the barrage and 800 charges!" "yeah, we got a stock pile of isotopes from the one that came before it, lets hope the gm's don't catch on to how unstealth these ships really are!" Team Minmatar

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