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Industry guys: Marauder/BlackOps sales meeting expectations?

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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.12.18 08:23:00 - [1] Basically what the title says. I'm really interested to hear how the ships are working out from a profitability standpoint. I've been following some sales data for prices and volume etc., and it doesn't look like they're very popular at the moment. Could anyone shed some light on the average cost to produce each type of BS? From the looks of things, some are selling for quite a bit below cost. As far as I can recall I've never seen such little demand for new items. Prices cooled off almost instantly, going from upwards of 2+bil to under 800m in some areas. So anyway, I'm really interested to find out how T2 BS production is working out from a profitability standpoint. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
General Cane Federation of Synthetic Persons	Posted - 2007.12.18 08:27:00 - [2] i have no clue about producing costs etc, sorry. But afaik mission runners love the new marauders. But for the blackops they are pretty useless at the moment... ( http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=660539 )
Lerinda Rasa	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:04:00 - [3] Edited by: Lerinda Rasa on 18/12/2007 09:06:27 According to the few industry contacts I got it's pretty "meh" right now. Production costs is about 800m for a Golem ( from what I remember) and the demand is low. Some theorize that demand will go up as people get more training time under their belt. That's about what I know. EDIT: Also, as Varrak said below me: moon dust should prove popular.
Varrakk Phantom Squad Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:04:00 - [4] Price on Moon Resources up, and builders eager to underbid each other. Prices in free fall. I noticed a 150m price drop on Vargur from sunday to monday. Add in invention costs, cant be much profit left.
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:11:00 - [5] It might take a while but at some point the idiots will figure out that selling barely above cost isn't worth the hassle :P Now recruiting!
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:16:00 - [6] I have heard from a friend who has a group of people working on inventing the new t2 battleships, and he told me the demand for these ships is really low and the price for these are dropping more and more in the direction of production cost by the day.
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar FSK23	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:33:00 - [7] There isn't much left to drop to in the "towards production cost" direction. You can already find marauders for sale which don't look like datacore costs were calculated in at all. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:38:00 - [8] Originally by: El'essar Viocragh There isn't much left to drop to in the "towards production cost" direction. You can already find marauders for sale which don't look like datacore costs were calculated in at all. "If I mine it myself, it's free!"
ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:40:00 - [9] Originally by: Lerinda Rasa Edited by: Lerinda Rasa on 18/12/2007 09:06:27 According to the few industry contacts I got it's pretty "meh" right now. Production costs is about 800m for a Golem ( from what I remember) and the demand is low. Some theorize that demand will go up as people get more training time under their belt. That's about what I know. EDIT: Also, as Varrak said below me: moon dust should prove popular. That is because it is the Golem. But the Gallente and Minmatar ships should be doing better I would hope. If I was given a Golem Tomarrow I would melt it down for its resources and I could fly that PoS. +++++++++++++++ I saw the Sign...! O.o
Kayna Eelai Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:44:00 - [10] i do lvl4 missions perfectly fine in my T1 pest or T2 phoon. the ship (even with some T2 modules) doesn't even cost 200M and the insurance pays back nice if i get ganked. i do 0.0 rats perfectly fine in my T2 fitted hurricane. this ship is worth around 100-120M maybe. insurance also pays back ok. i have to salvage/loot on a secondary account, specially now with that lame mineral compression nerf on T1 modules (if CCP wanted to nerf mineral compression, they should have switched T1 drops to cheapest named one) so... can you please tell me what advantage i would have with a marauder that costs 1-2B? why would any1 with a minimum of brain use a 2B ship for something that can be done in a 200M ship at more or less same speed? besides, best missions are in lowsec... i doubt any1 would like to risk their marauder to be killed by pirates. unless marauders get a increase of 500% on their cargo bay (or cost a 10% of what they cost now), i won't even bother with them. it's not worth. even with a marauder i would still need 2 accounts to efficiently mission/rat. and if i lose a ship to pirates, it is much easier to replace than a marauder. black ops? too expensive too to be really valuable in fleet pvp. fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:45:00 - [11] Some Marauders are currently sold at less than their production price, and that doesn't even factor in invention cost. Imho, this is due to two things: - Clueless inventors that don't really know how much it cost them to build the ships, and don't really make a profit. - Demand overestimated a lot, leading to a saturated market. One thing is sure: Marauder production is been virtually stopped for now, and every inventor that invested in them has stocks to sell before producing more. Imho, once more people have the skills to fly them, and get over the idea that no, the CNR isn't better than the Golem isks/hour wise, and that the other marauders, Vargur excepted, are even better at running missions, the market saturation will be resorbed, and selling Marauders will be slightly profitable again. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar FSK23	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:47:00 - [12] Vargur were price stable for about a day longer than the Golem. Nosedived since then too. If you take the datacores for free and produce all the components yourself, I guess you maybe could make a select few ISK with them. But you would make more if you just sold the components. Or, to illustrate the current profitability, to make one Marauder from ground up with PL researched BPOs and one manufacturing slot you need roughly 50 days to build it. If you would produce Rifters with that one slot for 50 days non-stop, you'd have a hard time to earn less. And those 1200 Rifters would be sold a lot faster.... -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Pitt Bull Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:48:00 - [13] Originally by: ZerKar Originally by: Lerinda Rasa Edited by: Lerinda Rasa on 18/12/2007 09:06:27 According to the few industry contacts I got it's pretty "meh" right now. Production costs is about 800m for a Golem ( from what I remember) and the demand is low. Some theorize that demand will go up as people get more training time under their belt. That's about what I know. EDIT: Also, as Varrak said below me: moon dust should prove popular. That is because it is the Golem. But the Gallente and Minmatar ships should be doing better I would hope. If I was given a Golem Tomarrow I would melt it down for its resources and I could fly that PoS. I'm fairly new to the game, but its really obvious that the Golem is the most useless of the bunch. When 4 defenders on a Kestrel can put your T2 battleship at bay, I think its time to train a different race.
Sicil Fioet Minmatar	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:49:00 - [14] for Golem -5 bpc prices in Forge for tech II components are about 775 mil total BPCs cost something like 40-50 mil per run and tech I bs is 90 mil grand total: 900 mil price on market for a built Golem in Forge: 720-730 mil for Kronos -5 bpc prices in Forge for tech II components are about 670 mil total BPCs cost something like 40-50 mil per run and tech I bs is 90 mil grand total: 810 mil price on market for a built Kronos in Forge: 760-770 mil So the answer is pretty obvious.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:50:00 - [15] Originally by: Kayna Eelai i do lvl4 missions perfectly fine in my T1 pest or T2 phoon. the ship (even with some T2 modules) doesn't even cost 200M and the insurance pays back nice if i get ganked. i do 0.0 rats perfectly fine in my T2 fitted hurricane. this ship is worth around 100-120M maybe. insurance also pays back ok. i have to salvage/loot on a secondary account, specially now with that lame mineral compression nerf on T1 modules (if CCP wanted to nerf mineral compression, they should have switched T1 drops to cheapest named one) so... can you please tell me what advantage i would have with a marauder that costs 1-2B? why would any1 with a minimum of brain use a 2B ship for something that can be done in a 200M ship at more or less same speed? ... More or less the same speed, eh? A marauder is much faster, thus you gain more money with it. As for your alt salvager argument, I could say that one marauder and one BS (or another marauder, if you're a dual account expert with very nimble fingers) would do the job much faster. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Tyr Zewa Caldari MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:54:00 - [16] Low demand due to high price, little advantage over t1, general 'meh'-ness of the ships. High price due to higher component demand in general. don't think it's a good market :P
Thuul'Khalat Gallente Phoenix Wing Acheron Federation	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:58:00 - [17] You also need to take into account that a lot of potential buyers are still working on getting the neccessary skills to actually fly one. ---
Kira Direll Niflhel TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2007.12.18 10:03:00 - [18] i really dont know why i should buy an obscenely expensive ship if my hyperion can do the job more then fine atm. looting is done with a specialized fitted cruiser after the mission thats even a little faster then before the compression nerf where i looted with the hyp and had to drop of loot in the station ocassionally. i even have a typhoon for long range engagements that can tank lvl4 easy so why should i spend 800m? _way_ to expensive to play with (of course that means: _way_ to high production costs). _way_ too expensive for a toy. i dont think marauders will ever be a marketing hit. the ones that can afford it, probably buy this thing as collectors instead of _using_ it. --- Disclaimer: sadly, all dumbass opinions or expressions i make _do_ reflect on my corp. they might not reflect on individual members, but who am i to not take responsibility and act accoordingly?
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.18 10:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Thuul'Khalat You also need to take into account that a lot of potential buyers are still working on getting the neccessary skills to actually fly one. That and also the fact that the one that would mostly buy the marauders (npc'ers) are still not convinced of their value, not to mention clueless (view above statement with defender spaming kestrel ) Don't forget that with pre-patch prices, a -3ME BPC that would produce a sin would need about 300mil cost just to build and now it needs over 500 if we're using market prices. To the smart person who will state that an inventor should have his own t2 component production line, think again... he'd be better not inventing at all atm and filling buy orders for components in jita
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:16:00 - [20] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 18/12/2007 11:16:23 Originally by: El'essar Viocragh There isn't much left to drop to in the "towards production cost" direction. You can already find marauders for sale which don't look like datacore costs were calculated in at all. Cost to build mauroder = 600mil including invention costs. This 800-900mil nonsense is what the manufacturers want you to beleive! /me has plenty of maurader BPC's & builds them Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:22:00 - [21] Edited by: insidion on 18/12/2007 11:22:55 The ships have ludicrous costs attached to them. By the time people can fly one let alone afford one, they usually are just about ready to quit missions let alone eve altogether. With the absurd reqs and the steep costs, the demand simply isn't there for them in the least and won't be anytime soon. Not to mention the fact that they could just buy a faction BS instead, or simply work one off doing L4's to begin with.
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:27:00 - [22] Demand for marauders is reall low due to the fact that in general they are no as good as normal battleships. So only mission runners seem to have an interest in them for there large cargo holds. Normal pvp bsed players are sticking with the far cheaper and generaly better all round battleships.
Ilea Celentay Veiled Justice	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:39:00 - [23] Personally I have skills to train before I can get one, even with BS 5 before patch, there is still a lot of training that I, and I would expect mission runners and non-pvp pilots would not have, specifically for the Black-ops at least. That is the Jump-drive skills. Still; I don't get why people are commenting they can do things better in XYZ ship; yes, of course, the new Tech2 Battleships are NOT mission running pwn-ships, nor do they out perform all other ships, they do what they do, better then another ship; but Tech1 battleships will still have the cost and durability over them. Its normal, its Eve. Looks like I might have to save up for my Black-ops; wasn't expecting them to cost that much to be honest, 500m or so maybe, but 800+... Faction Ship Info \|\| Rig Factory
Kakita J Placid Reborn Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:39:00 - [24] Originally by: Aranbaal Normal pvp bsed players What did the econ news letter say, 10% population in 0.0, 90% in empire? I wonder why... -------------------------------------- "They better fix the bleep bleep bleep jump bleep gates before I bleepbleepbleep and then some."
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:40:00 - [25] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 18/12/2007 11:16:23 Cost to build mauroder = 600mil including invention costs. This 800-900mil nonsense is what the manufacturers want you to beleive! /me has plenty of maurader BPC's & builds them I don't know what your angle is, gross failure in math or some secret source for components - maybe something else... I've done my share of calculations and I concur with the more popular conclusion that the build price really is 800-900mill I know some builders are using pre-patch prices they actually paid for the components, and not making reservations that a sold lot should be able to fund the new materials ... OR they're gonna sit this high price period out and come back when prices settle again. I really don't know if anyone is making profits, the Excel sheets show for me that the ships are going for less than they take to build. That in turn looks like a move to just dump the ships, get atleast some money out of them and move on to something that's worth building. shrugs -- CCP Aplogized for the boot.ini incident, but has yet to apologize for Trinity Expansion (premature release with unacceptable number and kind of bugs)
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:42:00 - [26] Originally by: Shadowsword Imho, once more people have the skills to fly them, and get over the idea that no, the CNR isn't better than the Golem isks/hour wise. Dunno in what world you are living m8, but realistically I don't see Golem prices rising bcos of mission running demand. I do have skills for Golem but it's mainly useful as specialized looting ship for level 4 missions. And thats for what I'm going to be using mine in those few missions worth looting for specialized mission runner. People who are talking about effectivity of looting while you run mission are either really not caring about effectivity or if they are then fooling themsleves. Specialized missionrunner in max gank minimal tank CNR is doing even the longest level 4 missions in approx 30 minutes (without looting), and with those mission running speeds he is earning better isk/h taking another mission than looting the last one. Numerical difference between Golem and CNR (on paper, it's too early for practical testing, altho I will get to it also in few days) 1) CNR does 16% more dps (only missiles, no gun) than Golem and in doing that is using 44% more ammo than Golem. 2) Golem has built in T2 CCC rig + CN shield boost amp + T2 resists over CNR giving it a lot better tanking ability. 3) Golem has 100 % tractor beam range and speed bonus + big cargo bay (awesome for looting) After you have tanking ability to do missions without warpouts only thing determining your mission running speed after that is your 'effective' damage ('effective' meaning damage you can reliably put out into any target in your typical mission engagement range from 0 km to 120 km).
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:43:00 - [27] Originally by: Aranbaal Demand for marauders is reall low due to the fact that in general they are no as good as normal battleships. So only mission runners seem to have an interest in them for there large cargo holds. Normal pvp bsed players are sticking with the far cheaper and generaly better all round battleships. QFT This! Most people prefer to stuck with their faction permatanking tripple bcu 7 cruise cnr doing 800dps than reinvest into a golem. Try comparing a Paladin to a Nightmare for pvp. No point using the t2 bs as the faction ship outclasses it. This is what needs to be looked at, as mauroders are pre-nerfed Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Apocryphai Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:45:00 - [28] One thing to mention is that the rapid price drops may actually be contributing to the continuing freefall of Marauder prices. For instance, say I wanted to buy a Golem. When they first appeared on the Jita market they were ~ 2 billion. Within hours there were Golems available for 1.8 bil, within 24 hours it was down to 1.5 bil and now they're down to 720 mil! So why exactly would I buy one right now when chances are they'll continue to drop in price, or at least it looks like a risk worth taking. Every day seems to bring another 100 mil drop in price... maybe I'd wait until the weekend... or until it looked like prices were rising again at least. ________________________________________________________________ Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
OneSock Crown Industries	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:53:00 - [29] For me the issue is training and cost. I would need to do AWU5. And I would be looking to pay max of 500m. With the uncertainty of changes in Lv4 missions since patch, I wouldn't risk 500mill+ in a mission. I'll stick to a cheapo (even faction fit) Domi until I'm sure of no nasty surprises. Would a Kronos run missions faster for me ? I doubt it, as my skills are drone heavy rather than rail heavy. So not worth the cost/risk. I may of course decide to buy one for salvaging, as the bay size and tractor beam bonus suggest a nice role in salvaging Lv4s. No risk there either. But depends on my training direction.
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:55:00 - [30] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Aranbaal Demand for marauders is reall low due to the fact that in general they are no as good as normal battleships. So only mission runners seem to have an interest in them for there large cargo holds. Normal pvp bsed players are sticking with the far cheaper and generaly better all round battleships. QFT This! Most people prefer to stuck with their faction permatanking tripple bcu 7 cruise cnr doing 800dps than reinvest into a golem. Try comparing a Paladin to a Nightmare for pvp. No point using the t2 bs as the faction ship outclasses it. This is what needs to be looked at, as mauroders are pre-nerfed No need to compare the Paladin to the nightmare, already compared it to the abaddon and it doesnt even come close. Paladin allong with theother marauders just dont stand up for what they cost.

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