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Industry guys: Marauder/BlackOps sales meeting expectations?

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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.12.18 08:23:00 - [1] Basically what the title says. I'm really interested to hear how the ships are working out from a profitability standpoint. I've been following some sales data for prices and volume etc., and it doesn't look like they're very popular at the moment. Could anyone shed some light on the average cost to produce each type of BS? From the looks of things, some are selling for quite a bit below cost. As far as I can recall I've never seen such little demand for new items. Prices cooled off almost instantly, going from upwards of 2+bil to under 800m in some areas. So anyway, I'm really interested to find out how T2 BS production is working out from a profitability standpoint. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
General Cane Federation of Synthetic Persons	Posted - 2007.12.18 08:27:00 - [2] i have no clue about producing costs etc, sorry. But afaik mission runners love the new marauders. But for the blackops they are pretty useless at the moment... ( http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=660539 )
Lerinda Rasa	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:04:00 - [3] Edited by: Lerinda Rasa on 18/12/2007 09:06:27 According to the few industry contacts I got it's pretty "meh" right now. Production costs is about 800m for a Golem ( from what I remember) and the demand is low. Some theorize that demand will go up as people get more training time under their belt. That's about what I know. EDIT: Also, as Varrak said below me: moon dust should prove popular.
Varrakk Phantom Squad Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:04:00 - [4] Price on Moon Resources up, and builders eager to underbid each other. Prices in free fall. I noticed a 150m price drop on Vargur from sunday to monday. Add in invention costs, cant be much profit left.
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:11:00 - [5] It might take a while but at some point the idiots will figure out that selling barely above cost isn't worth the hassle :P Now recruiting!
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:16:00 - [6] I have heard from a friend who has a group of people working on inventing the new t2 battleships, and he told me the demand for these ships is really low and the price for these are dropping more and more in the direction of production cost by the day.
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar FSK23	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:33:00 - [7] There isn't much left to drop to in the "towards production cost" direction. You can already find marauders for sale which don't look like datacore costs were calculated in at all. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:38:00 - [8] Originally by: El'essar Viocragh There isn't much left to drop to in the "towards production cost" direction. You can already find marauders for sale which don't look like datacore costs were calculated in at all. "If I mine it myself, it's free!"
ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:40:00 - [9] Originally by: Lerinda Rasa Edited by: Lerinda Rasa on 18/12/2007 09:06:27 According to the few industry contacts I got it's pretty "meh" right now. Production costs is about 800m for a Golem ( from what I remember) and the demand is low. Some theorize that demand will go up as people get more training time under their belt. That's about what I know. EDIT: Also, as Varrak said below me: moon dust should prove popular. That is because it is the Golem. But the Gallente and Minmatar ships should be doing better I would hope. If I was given a Golem Tomarrow I would melt it down for its resources and I could fly that PoS. +++++++++++++++ I saw the Sign...! O.o
Kayna Eelai Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:44:00 - [10] i do lvl4 missions perfectly fine in my T1 pest or T2 phoon. the ship (even with some T2 modules) doesn't even cost 200M and the insurance pays back nice if i get ganked. i do 0.0 rats perfectly fine in my T2 fitted hurricane. this ship is worth around 100-120M maybe. insurance also pays back ok. i have to salvage/loot on a secondary account, specially now with that lame mineral compression nerf on T1 modules (if CCP wanted to nerf mineral compression, they should have switched T1 drops to cheapest named one) so... can you please tell me what advantage i would have with a marauder that costs 1-2B? why would any1 with a minimum of brain use a 2B ship for something that can be done in a 200M ship at more or less same speed? besides, best missions are in lowsec... i doubt any1 would like to risk their marauder to be killed by pirates. unless marauders get a increase of 500% on their cargo bay (or cost a 10% of what they cost now), i won't even bother with them. it's not worth. even with a marauder i would still need 2 accounts to efficiently mission/rat. and if i lose a ship to pirates, it is much easier to replace than a marauder. black ops? too expensive too to be really valuable in fleet pvp. fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:45:00 - [11] Some Marauders are currently sold at less than their production price, and that doesn't even factor in invention cost. Imho, this is due to two things: - Clueless inventors that don't really know how much it cost them to build the ships, and don't really make a profit. - Demand overestimated a lot, leading to a saturated market. One thing is sure: Marauder production is been virtually stopped for now, and every inventor that invested in them has stocks to sell before producing more. Imho, once more people have the skills to fly them, and get over the idea that no, the CNR isn't better than the Golem isks/hour wise, and that the other marauders, Vargur excepted, are even better at running missions, the market saturation will be resorbed, and selling Marauders will be slightly profitable again. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar FSK23	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:47:00 - [12] Vargur were price stable for about a day longer than the Golem. Nosedived since then too. If you take the datacores for free and produce all the components yourself, I guess you maybe could make a select few ISK with them. But you would make more if you just sold the components. Or, to illustrate the current profitability, to make one Marauder from ground up with PL researched BPOs and one manufacturing slot you need roughly 50 days to build it. If you would produce Rifters with that one slot for 50 days non-stop, you'd have a hard time to earn less. And those 1200 Rifters would be sold a lot faster.... -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Pitt Bull Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:48:00 - [13] Originally by: ZerKar Originally by: Lerinda Rasa Edited by: Lerinda Rasa on 18/12/2007 09:06:27 According to the few industry contacts I got it's pretty "meh" right now. Production costs is about 800m for a Golem ( from what I remember) and the demand is low. Some theorize that demand will go up as people get more training time under their belt. That's about what I know. EDIT: Also, as Varrak said below me: moon dust should prove popular. That is because it is the Golem. But the Gallente and Minmatar ships should be doing better I would hope. If I was given a Golem Tomarrow I would melt it down for its resources and I could fly that PoS. I'm fairly new to the game, but its really obvious that the Golem is the most useless of the bunch. When 4 defenders on a Kestrel can put your T2 battleship at bay, I think its time to train a different race.
Sicil Fioet Minmatar	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:49:00 - [14] for Golem -5 bpc prices in Forge for tech II components are about 775 mil total BPCs cost something like 40-50 mil per run and tech I bs is 90 mil grand total: 900 mil price on market for a built Golem in Forge: 720-730 mil for Kronos -5 bpc prices in Forge for tech II components are about 670 mil total BPCs cost something like 40-50 mil per run and tech I bs is 90 mil grand total: 810 mil price on market for a built Kronos in Forge: 760-770 mil So the answer is pretty obvious.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:50:00 - [15] Originally by: Kayna Eelai i do lvl4 missions perfectly fine in my T1 pest or T2 phoon. the ship (even with some T2 modules) doesn't even cost 200M and the insurance pays back nice if i get ganked. i do 0.0 rats perfectly fine in my T2 fitted hurricane. this ship is worth around 100-120M maybe. insurance also pays back ok. i have to salvage/loot on a secondary account, specially now with that lame mineral compression nerf on T1 modules (if CCP wanted to nerf mineral compression, they should have switched T1 drops to cheapest named one) so... can you please tell me what advantage i would have with a marauder that costs 1-2B? why would any1 with a minimum of brain use a 2B ship for something that can be done in a 200M ship at more or less same speed? ... More or less the same speed, eh? A marauder is much faster, thus you gain more money with it. As for your alt salvager argument, I could say that one marauder and one BS (or another marauder, if you're a dual account expert with very nimble fingers) would do the job much faster. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Tyr Zewa Caldari MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:54:00 - [16] Low demand due to high price, little advantage over t1, general 'meh'-ness of the ships. High price due to higher component demand in general. don't think it's a good market :P
Thuul'Khalat Gallente Phoenix Wing Acheron Federation	Posted - 2007.12.18 09:58:00 - [17] You also need to take into account that a lot of potential buyers are still working on getting the neccessary skills to actually fly one. ---
Kira Direll Niflhel TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2007.12.18 10:03:00 - [18] i really dont know why i should buy an obscenely expensive ship if my hyperion can do the job more then fine atm. looting is done with a specialized fitted cruiser after the mission thats even a little faster then before the compression nerf where i looted with the hyp and had to drop of loot in the station ocassionally. i even have a typhoon for long range engagements that can tank lvl4 easy so why should i spend 800m? _way_ to expensive to play with (of course that means: _way_ to high production costs). _way_ too expensive for a toy. i dont think marauders will ever be a marketing hit. the ones that can afford it, probably buy this thing as collectors instead of _using_ it. --- Disclaimer: sadly, all dumbass opinions or expressions i make _do_ reflect on my corp. they might not reflect on individual members, but who am i to not take responsibility and act accoordingly?
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.18 10:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Thuul'Khalat You also need to take into account that a lot of potential buyers are still working on getting the neccessary skills to actually fly one. That and also the fact that the one that would mostly buy the marauders (npc'ers) are still not convinced of their value, not to mention clueless (view above statement with defender spaming kestrel ) Don't forget that with pre-patch prices, a -3ME BPC that would produce a sin would need about 300mil cost just to build and now it needs over 500 if we're using market prices. To the smart person who will state that an inventor should have his own t2 component production line, think again... he'd be better not inventing at all atm and filling buy orders for components in jita
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:16:00 - [20] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 18/12/2007 11:16:23 Originally by: El'essar Viocragh There isn't much left to drop to in the "towards production cost" direction. You can already find marauders for sale which don't look like datacore costs were calculated in at all. Cost to build mauroder = 600mil including invention costs. This 800-900mil nonsense is what the manufacturers want you to beleive! /me has plenty of maurader BPC's & builds them Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:22:00 - [21] Edited by: insidion on 18/12/2007 11:22:55 The ships have ludicrous costs attached to them. By the time people can fly one let alone afford one, they usually are just about ready to quit missions let alone eve altogether. With the absurd reqs and the steep costs, the demand simply isn't there for them in the least and won't be anytime soon. Not to mention the fact that they could just buy a faction BS instead, or simply work one off doing L4's to begin with.
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:27:00 - [22] Demand for marauders is reall low due to the fact that in general they are no as good as normal battleships. So only mission runners seem to have an interest in them for there large cargo holds. Normal pvp bsed players are sticking with the far cheaper and generaly better all round battleships.
Ilea Celentay Veiled Justice	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:39:00 - [23] Personally I have skills to train before I can get one, even with BS 5 before patch, there is still a lot of training that I, and I would expect mission runners and non-pvp pilots would not have, specifically for the Black-ops at least. That is the Jump-drive skills. Still; I don't get why people are commenting they can do things better in XYZ ship; yes, of course, the new Tech2 Battleships are NOT mission running pwn-ships, nor do they out perform all other ships, they do what they do, better then another ship; but Tech1 battleships will still have the cost and durability over them. Its normal, its Eve. Looks like I might have to save up for my Black-ops; wasn't expecting them to cost that much to be honest, 500m or so maybe, but 800+... Faction Ship Info \|\| Rig Factory
Kakita J Placid Reborn Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:39:00 - [24] Originally by: Aranbaal Normal pvp bsed players What did the econ news letter say, 10% population in 0.0, 90% in empire? I wonder why... -------------------------------------- "They better fix the bleep bleep bleep jump bleep gates before I bleepbleepbleep and then some."
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:40:00 - [25] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 18/12/2007 11:16:23 Cost to build mauroder = 600mil including invention costs. This 800-900mil nonsense is what the manufacturers want you to beleive! /me has plenty of maurader BPC's & builds them I don't know what your angle is, gross failure in math or some secret source for components - maybe something else... I've done my share of calculations and I concur with the more popular conclusion that the build price really is 800-900mill I know some builders are using pre-patch prices they actually paid for the components, and not making reservations that a sold lot should be able to fund the new materials ... OR they're gonna sit this high price period out and come back when prices settle again. I really don't know if anyone is making profits, the Excel sheets show for me that the ships are going for less than they take to build. That in turn looks like a move to just dump the ships, get atleast some money out of them and move on to something that's worth building. shrugs -- CCP Aplogized for the boot.ini incident, but has yet to apologize for Trinity Expansion (premature release with unacceptable number and kind of bugs)
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:42:00 - [26] Originally by: Shadowsword Imho, once more people have the skills to fly them, and get over the idea that no, the CNR isn't better than the Golem isks/hour wise. Dunno in what world you are living m8, but realistically I don't see Golem prices rising bcos of mission running demand. I do have skills for Golem but it's mainly useful as specialized looting ship for level 4 missions. And thats for what I'm going to be using mine in those few missions worth looting for specialized mission runner. People who are talking about effectivity of looting while you run mission are either really not caring about effectivity or if they are then fooling themsleves. Specialized missionrunner in max gank minimal tank CNR is doing even the longest level 4 missions in approx 30 minutes (without looting), and with those mission running speeds he is earning better isk/h taking another mission than looting the last one. Numerical difference between Golem and CNR (on paper, it's too early for practical testing, altho I will get to it also in few days) 1) CNR does 16% more dps (only missiles, no gun) than Golem and in doing that is using 44% more ammo than Golem. 2) Golem has built in T2 CCC rig + CN shield boost amp + T2 resists over CNR giving it a lot better tanking ability. 3) Golem has 100 % tractor beam range and speed bonus + big cargo bay (awesome for looting) After you have tanking ability to do missions without warpouts only thing determining your mission running speed after that is your 'effective' damage ('effective' meaning damage you can reliably put out into any target in your typical mission engagement range from 0 km to 120 km).
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:43:00 - [27] Originally by: Aranbaal Demand for marauders is reall low due to the fact that in general they are no as good as normal battleships. So only mission runners seem to have an interest in them for there large cargo holds. Normal pvp bsed players are sticking with the far cheaper and generaly better all round battleships. QFT This! Most people prefer to stuck with their faction permatanking tripple bcu 7 cruise cnr doing 800dps than reinvest into a golem. Try comparing a Paladin to a Nightmare for pvp. No point using the t2 bs as the faction ship outclasses it. This is what needs to be looked at, as mauroders are pre-nerfed Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Apocryphai Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:45:00 - [28] One thing to mention is that the rapid price drops may actually be contributing to the continuing freefall of Marauder prices. For instance, say I wanted to buy a Golem. When they first appeared on the Jita market they were ~ 2 billion. Within hours there were Golems available for 1.8 bil, within 24 hours it was down to 1.5 bil and now they're down to 720 mil! So why exactly would I buy one right now when chances are they'll continue to drop in price, or at least it looks like a risk worth taking. Every day seems to bring another 100 mil drop in price... maybe I'd wait until the weekend... or until it looked like prices were rising again at least. ________________________________________________________________ Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
OneSock Crown Industries	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:53:00 - [29] For me the issue is training and cost. I would need to do AWU5. And I would be looking to pay max of 500m. With the uncertainty of changes in Lv4 missions since patch, I wouldn't risk 500mill+ in a mission. I'll stick to a cheapo (even faction fit) Domi until I'm sure of no nasty surprises. Would a Kronos run missions faster for me ? I doubt it, as my skills are drone heavy rather than rail heavy. So not worth the cost/risk. I may of course decide to buy one for salvaging, as the bay size and tractor beam bonus suggest a nice role in salvaging Lv4s. No risk there either. But depends on my training direction.
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:55:00 - [30] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Aranbaal Demand for marauders is reall low due to the fact that in general they are no as good as normal battleships. So only mission runners seem to have an interest in them for there large cargo holds. Normal pvp bsed players are sticking with the far cheaper and generaly better all round battleships. QFT This! Most people prefer to stuck with their faction permatanking tripple bcu 7 cruise cnr doing 800dps than reinvest into a golem. Try comparing a Paladin to a Nightmare for pvp. No point using the t2 bs as the faction ship outclasses it. This is what needs to be looked at, as mauroders are pre-nerfed No need to compare the Paladin to the nightmare, already compared it to the abaddon and it doesnt even come close. Paladin allong with theother marauders just dont stand up for what they cost.
DJ P	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:59:00 - [31] Marauders will not be available soon so don't expect price drops. When the stock is gone, they are gone. The cost to build one incl the invention (but not the fails!) is aprox 800m with good skills and implants. Now, the people who sell them at loss are either a) people who want to flog them and stop there (with few hundred million loss) b) people who soon will be bankcrupt c) people who macromining and they are not bothered. I know from friends who do invention heavily, and they will not make ANY. It's cheaper to produce capital ships or anything else than T2 battleships.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:06:00 - [32] Originally by: DJ P Marauders will not be available soon so don't expect price drops. When the stock is gone, they are gone. The cost to build one incl the invention (but not the fails!) is aprox 800m with good skills and implants. Now, the people who sell them at loss are either a) people who want to flog them and stop there (with few hundred million loss) b) people who soon will be bankcrupt c) people who macromining and they are not bothered. I know from friends who do invention heavily, and they will not make ANY. It's cheaper to produce capital ships or anything else than T2 battleships. T2 bs's cost around 600mil to invent and manufacture, however not everyone has max skills + implants so costs are going to be an extra 10-20% or so (aorund 700mil) There is money to be made, but currently, these ships are close to useless when compared to faction ships. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Ironnight Caldari x13	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:08:00 - [33] Same problem as allways, people mine their own minerals and forget that they have add the value of the minerals to the build cost, nothing new. For me it will be just as fast to train to a carrier as to a black ops, sure the skills costs a lot more, but I see the carrier as a much better choice, I can move more stuff with it and it will do better in combat, so I am going to pass on the black ops, they seem to be pretty useless to me. Marauders seem to be ok, but a tech I battleship is more then enough to do missions in and the extra cargohold has allready been nerfed by the increase in volume of most items. As a PVP ship cost is too high for it to be really interesting and it is way to easy to jam them. I do however like the new heavy interdictors.
Hyo Velka	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:11:00 - [34] Originally by: OneSock ... I may of course decide to buy one for salvaging, as the bay size and tractor beam bonus suggest a nice role in salvaging Lv4s. No risk there either. But depends on my training direction. Hehe. Snap. Should be a perfect replacement for my destroyer
Hephaesteus Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:14:00 - [35] I would love a Kronos but tbh it does not have that great an advantage over my Navy Mega for me to want to buy one. What with the ecm hole and not being any good for anything else other than missioning/ratting, they are way overpriced for what they are. I think I would buy one if they were 400-500 mill, but 900 mill is silly money considering a Mega/Domi are better all round ships. Now consider the Navy ships which are cheaper than Marauders and have an all round capability, and it is not difficult to see why Marauders are not selling that well. Imho Marauders are too limited in their roles to be anything else other than collectors items.
pershphanie Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:24:00 - [36] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Aranbaal Demand for marauders is reall low due to the fact that in general they are no as good as normal battleships. So only mission runners seem to have an interest in them for there large cargo holds. Normal pvp bsed players are sticking with the far cheaper and generaly better all round battleships. QFT This! Most people prefer to stuck with their faction permatanking tripple bcu 7 cruise cnr doing 800dps than reinvest into a golem. Try comparing a Paladin to a Nightmare for pvp. No point using the t2 bs as the faction ship outclasses it. This is what needs to be looked at, as mauroders are pre-nerfed @ everyone knowing sooo much about a ship that pretty much no one has even finished training to fly yet. Just because a ship doesn't look badass of EFT doesn't mean it's going to suck. Really though you don't even know how to use the ship yet. I don't either for that matter it's kind of unknown atm. The problem with them is that people expected them to be either superhacs or better versions of CNR's/navy megas. Clearly they are not that. How ever just because they aren't the "i win" button everyone expected doesnt mean they wont have their role in both pve and pvp. Train marauders lvl4, actually fly the ship before assuming it sucks. As for the stall on the market, ofc that is to be expected. People have to train to fly them. The only people who own them now are really rich people who wanted something new to amuse them and producers of them. Most people wait a while before buying something like that when it first comes out. Everyone assumes the price will drop. People figure why buy now when i can wait two weeks and get em 100mill cheaper and have better skills to fly it? Think about it like this. When dvd players first came out not many people rushed out and bought them, but now everyone has atleast one. The first of these ships hit the open market less than a week ago. Did everyone really expect people to all line up and buy them all out at 1.3bill the first couple days they were available? Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected])
Hephaesteus Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:36:00 - [37] Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Aranbaal stuff stuff @ everyone knowing sooo much about a ship that pretty much no one has even finished training to fly yet. Just because a ship doesn't look badass of EFT doesn't mean it's going to suck. Really though you don't even know how to use the ship yet. I don't either for that matter it's kind of unknown atm. The problem with them is that people expected them to be either superhacs or better versions of CNR's/navy megas. Clearly they are not that. How ever just because they aren't the "i win" button everyone expected doesnt mean they wont have their role in both pve and pvp. Train marauders lvl4, actually fly the ship before assuming it sucks. As for the stall on the market, ofc that is to be expected. People have to train to fly them. The only people who own them now are really rich people who wanted something new to amuse them and producers of them. Most people wait a while before buying something like that when it first comes out. Everyone assumes the price will drop. People figure why buy now when i can wait two weeks and get em 100mill cheaper and have better skills to fly it? Think about it like this. When dvd players first came out not many people rushed out and bought them, but now everyone has atleast one. The first of these ships hit the open market less than a week ago. Did everyone really expect people to all line up and buy them all out at 1.3bill the first couple days they were available? Well I have used these on Sisi and yes they are very good for what they are, but they are not good enough for me to want to give up my Navy ship and spend the extra isk on one.
pershphanie Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:42:00 - [38] Originally by: Hephaesteus Well I have used these on Sisi and yes they are very good for what they are, but they are not good enough for me to want to give up my Navy ship and spend the extra isk on one. you used one extensively with marauders lvl4 trained? if so, you're one of the few. Still, not enough people have flown them with properly trained skills to know all the possible applications for them. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected])
Jarod Hawke Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:43:00 - [39] Edited by: Jarod Hawke on 18/12/2007 12:45:56 Since even tech 2 ships can't still be insured for their market value I'm guessing you would definitely need to be nut if you would go for these new ships. Probably yet another thing CCP forget to fix.
Demarcus Killjoy.	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:43:00 - [40] Ya a Caldari BS with three heavy energy neuts and the equivalent of eight cruise launchers and an extra mid slot for tank. Man that sucks I don't know why anyone would want one of those. ------------------------------------- You are all worthless, and weak.
Commoner Caldari Emergent Chaos Bedlam Consortium	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:44:00 - [41] I won't be buying one because i do missions in low-sec. IMO i think CCP gave this thing a wrong penalty in the first place by reducing sensor strength. The worst pvp'er in EVE :
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:56:00 - [42] Edited by: Shadowsword on 18/12/2007 12:58:48 Originally by: Aranbaal No need to compare the Paladin to the nightmare, already compared it to the abaddon and it doesnt even come close. Paladin allong with theother marauders just dont stand up for what they cost. yeah, right... - The paladin can fit easily 2 beams and 2 tachyons without using rigs or slots for fitting, and beams are overall more effective than pulses, even with scorch. Can your abaddon do the same? - The paladin can perma-run a tank and web and guns with 3 damage mods. The abaddon just can't. All the paladin need is 2 T1 CCC rigs and 3 cap recharger II. How many cap mods need an Abaddon to be sustainable? - All the other Marauder advantages, tractor, cargo, speed, web, ammos, slightly better tank. As for the other guy saying a CNR use 44% more ammo than a golem, that's wrong, it's 133% more ammos. Quote: T2 bs's cost around 600mil to invent and manufacture, however not everyone has max skills + implants so costs are going to be an extra 10-20% or so (aorund 700mil) Take a look at component prices in Jita. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Kira Direll Niflhel TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:58:00 - [43] Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Aranbaal Demand for marauders is reall low due to the fact that in general they are no as good as normal battleships. So only mission runners seem to have an interest in them for there large cargo holds. Normal pvp bsed players are sticking with the far cheaper and generaly better all round battleships. QFT This! Most people prefer to stuck with their faction permatanking tripple bcu 7 cruise cnr doing 800dps than reinvest into a golem. Try comparing a Paladin to a Nightmare for pvp. No point using the t2 bs as the faction ship outclasses it. This is what needs to be looked at, as mauroders are pre-nerfed @ everyone knowing sooo much about a ship that pretty much no one has even finished training to fly yet. Just because a ship doesn't look badass of EFT doesn't mean it's going to suck. Really though you don't even know how to use the ship yet. I don't either for that matter it's kind of unknown atm. The problem with them is that people expected them to be either superhacs or better versions of CNR's/navy megas. Clearly they are not that. How ever just because they aren't the "i win" button everyone expected doesnt mean they wont have their role in both pve and pvp. Train marauders lvl4, actually fly the ship before assuming it sucks. okay, if they arent better then T1 and faction BS where is the point in spending 900m up to 2b ISK then? their role is mission running and that role is filled with faction and T1 BS right now. there is simply no need for marauders at this ridicolous prize and production costs. a 900m salvage boat... suuuuuure. Quote: Think about it like this. When dvd players first came out not many people rushed out and bought them, but now everyone has atleast one. The first of these ships hit the open market less than a week ago. Did everyone really expect people to all line up and buy them all out at 1.3bill the first couple days they were available? what has DVD players with a clear and huge advantage to do with marauders that offer very little (if ever) advantage over existing boats? --- Disclaimer: sadly, all dumbass opinions or expressions i make _do_ reflect on my corp. they might not reflect on individual members, but who am i to not take responsibility and act accoordingly?
Hephaesteus Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:10:00 - [44] Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Hephaesteus Well I have used these on Sisi and yes they are very good for what they are, but they are not good enough for me to want to give up my Navy ship and spend the extra isk on one. you used one extensively with marauders lvl4 trained? if so, you're one of the few. Still, not enough people have flown them with properly trained skills to know all the possible applications for them. Yes I took Marauders skill to lvl 4, and yes it is a good ship to mission in, but not good enough to make me want to buy one. I really don't see them being used for anything other than the pve side of Eve because of the huge Ecm hole. That said i'm sure their is someone somewhere trying to figure out how to make it the solo ship of hybrid death, but it is too easily jammed imho to be of any use in a gang. Time will tell I guess.
FingerThief Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:16:00 - [45] Originally by: Sicil Fioet Kronos BPCs cost something like 40-50 mil per run and tech I bs is 90 mil I wonder how you came up with that number.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:17:00 - [46] I ran all the production costs through a spreadsheet, and if you own all the blueprints for all of the components and just build it out of raw materials, a t2 BS costs about 200mil plus the BS itself (so if you have the BP for that too, like 250mil for a BOps or 280 for a Marauder). The only costly part is the invention, and I think with good decryptors and a t1 ship, you're looking at a 30% chance to invent, so 300mil for a BOps or 330 for a Marauder... Add that on to the original price, and you're looking at 550mil for a BOps and 620 for a Marauder. Way too expensive for what they are in my opinion... Latest Video, Click Here!
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:23:00 - [47] you're forgetting to include opportunity costs in that figure.
Lara Dantreb New Horizons	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:25:00 - [48] Originally by: Lara Dantreb Edited by: Lara Dantreb on 11/12/2007 01:09:57 My corp produces and sells T2 components. ATM the profit is insane but I don't like it : the prices are stupid, people buy components in the hope to be among the first to produce T2 BS and Jump Freighters. I've counted 1000 BS construction skill sold over a few regions only. People hope to make a good profit by making these ships but there is one point no one considers : with the actual production costs, very few or no one will be able to afford these ships : we're heading to a gigantic crash : when hundreds of people will have lost billions in this venture, you will read their complaints in these forums. My bit of advice is : don't hope too much, wait 1 week and see Edit : Finally understood why things are like they are : CCP needed a huge isk-sink to slow down the inflation. Here it is I posted that 1 week ago
Reiisha Splint Eye Probabilities Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:29:00 - [49] 1) Very low demand, due to a specific use (mission running, npc'ing) 2) Very high skill requirements 3) Very difficult to produce, both in inventing and manufacturing 4) Very durable - People do not tend to lose ships like this, especially since they won't see much use in PvP. Hence, when people buy them, they don't buy them again. EVE History Wiki
FingerThief Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:31:00 - [50] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn I ran all the production costs through a spreadsheet, and if you own all the blueprints for all of the components and just build it out of raw materials, a t2 BS costs about 200mil plus the BS itself (so if you have the BP for that too, like 250mil for a BOps or 280 for a Marauder). The only costly part is the invention, and I think with good decryptors and a t1 ship, you're looking at a 30% chance to invent, so 300mil for a BOps or 330 for a Marauder... Add that on to the original price, and you're looking at 550mil for a BOps and 620 for a Marauder. Way too expensive for what they are in my opinion... Something is utterly wrong with your math there. If you run 20 jobs with ship and decryptor that alone is a market value of 2.5B ( exluding 640 Mech Eng Datacores that are another 1.28B ) Getting 4 runs out of 20 ( optimistic ) that is a minimum of 600M per BPC run. At current market price from Jita ( using Advanced Materials ) building the Construction Components its 699.410.000 ISK ( for the components only, incl. Construction Blocks, Megacyte and Morphite ). Add 160 Datacores at 2M + 1 megathron at 105M and you get 1.124M ... Factoring in Moon materials and reactions etc as free will certainly reduce that but not giving them value during the calc is just wrong since you deprive yourself from income. FT
Karr Meyn	Posted - 2007.12.18 13:38:00 - [51] Originally by: Lara Dantreb Edit : Finally understood why things are like they are : CCP needed a huge isk-sink to slow down the inflation. Here it is This is EXACT reason. █████ [Auction] - 30M+ SP █████
Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:11:00 - [52] Originally by: Kayna Eelai why would any1 with a minimum of brain use a 2B ship for something that can be done in a 200M ship at more or less same speed? ... Gisti CNR does what? Say again?
pershphanie Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:12:00 - [53] Edited by: pershphanie on 18/12/2007 14:13:45 Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected])
pershphanie Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:13:00 - [54] Originally by: Kira Direll okay, if they arent better then T1 and faction BS where is the point in spending 900m up to 2b ISK then? their role is mission running and that role is filled with faction and T1 BS right now. there is simply no need for marauders at this ridicolous prize and production costs. ... a 50 mill domi can solo a 120mill diemos. Yet people still buy hacs. Different ships have different roles. That was my point. Marauders weren't meant to be exactly like navy issue bs's but better. That isn't the same thing as saying Marauders arent better than navy issue bs's. They are DIFFERENT. Originally by: Kira Direll a 900m salvage boat... suuuuuure. you have absolutely zero clue about what you are talking about. Originally by: Kira Direll edit: nobody says that marauders do suck. You just got done doing exactly that. Originally by: Kira Direll they just arent worth the prizetag and offer to little advantage over existing missionrunner setups. yes you have more room and some nice boni (tractorbeam, etc.) but using a mission maelstrom or CNR together with a specced loot cruiser offers more speed, more cargoroom at waaaay less costs. I'm not convinced you have a clue about them from reading your post tbh. Quote: Think about it like this. When dvd players first came out not many people rushed out and bought them, but now everyone has atleast one. The first of these ships hit the open market less than a week ago. Did everyone really expect people to all line up and buy them all out at 1.3bill the first couple days they were available? Originally by: Kira Direll what has DVD players with a clear and huge advantage to do with marauders that offer very little (if ever) advantage over existing boats? Multiple extra high slots + better resists + extra combat bonuses is not an advantage? Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected])
Ironnight Caldari x13	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:32:00 - [55] Originally by: pershphanie Multiple extra high slots + better resists + extra combat bonuses is not an advantage? Try fitting a Vargur and see how much powergird you have left to fit the remaining four high slots.
Joss Sparq Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:36:00 - [56] Edited by: Joss Sparq on 18/12/2007 14:36:23 Originally by: Gner Dechast Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 18/12/2007 11:16:23 Cost to build mauroder = 600mil including invention costs. This 800-900mil nonsense is what the manufacturers want you to beleive! /me has plenty of maurader BPC's & builds them I don't know what your angle is, gross failure in math or some secret source for components - maybe something else... I've done my share of calculations and I concur with the more popular conclusion that the build price really is 800-900mill /signed, I too call shenanigans upon them.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:38:00 - [57] Originally by: Joss Sparq Edited by: Joss Sparq on 18/12/2007 14:36:23 Originally by: Gner Dechast Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 18/12/2007 11:16:23 Cost to build mauroder = 600mil including invention costs. This 800-900mil nonsense is what the manufacturers want you to beleive! /me has plenty of maurader BPC's & builds them I don't know what your angle is, gross failure in math or some secret source for components - maybe something else... I've done my share of calculations and I concur with the more popular conclusion that the build price really is 800-900mill /signed, I too call shenanigans upon them. yeah, and the Abaddon costs 180mil to build. Newbie manufacturers/inventors are the problem. Pimp inventors/manufacturers know how to make isk outta this Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.18 14:59:00 - [58] Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Aranbaal Demand for marauders is reall low due to the fact that in general they are no as good as normal battleships. So only mission runners seem to have an interest in them for there large cargo holds. Normal pvp bsed players are sticking with the far cheaper and generaly better all round battleships. QFT This! Most people prefer to stuck with their faction permatanking tripple bcu 7 cruise cnr doing 800dps than reinvest into a golem. Try comparing a Paladin to a Nightmare for pvp. No point using the t2 bs as the faction ship outclasses it. This is what needs to be looked at, as mauroders are pre-nerfed @ everyone knowing sooo much about a ship that pretty much no one has even finished training to fly yet. Just because a ship doesn't look badass of EFT doesn't mean it's going to suck. Really though you don't even know how to use the ship yet. I don't either for that matter it's kind of unknown atm. The problem with them is that people expected them to be either superhacs or better versions of CNR's/navy megas. Clearly they are not that. How ever just because they aren't the "i win" button everyone expected doesnt mean they wont have their role in both pve and pvp. Train marauders lvl4, actually fly the ship before assuming it sucks. As for the stall on the market, ofc that is to be expected. People have to train to fly them. The only people who own them now are really rich people who wanted something new to amuse them and producers of them. Most people wait a while before buying something like that when it first comes out. Everyone assumes the price will drop. People figure why buy now when i can wait two weeks and get em 100mill cheaper and have better skills to fly it? Think about it like this. When dvd players first came out not many people rushed out and bought them, but now everyone has atleast one. The first of these ships hit the open market less than a week ago. Did everyone really expect people to all line up and buy them all out at 1.3bill the first couple days they were available? People arent expecting them to be far beter than the faction ships but for the price of them people expect them to be better than the tier 3 battleships, The paladin is costing 800m -1 billion isk at the moment and the abaddon 140-150m. The abaddon is the better ship. Does exactly the same ammount of dmg an almost twice as well. Its the same for the other races. The only Marauder that does look worth flying is the Vargur but then it only tanks slightly better than the maelstrom for 4-5x the price. T2 battleships FTL
Kira Direll Niflhel TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:15:00 - [59] Edited by: Kira Direll on 18/12/2007 15:25:35 Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Kira Direll okay, if they arent better then T1 and faction BS where is the point in spending 900m up to 2b ISK then? their role is mission running and that role is filled with faction and T1 BS right now. there is simply no need for marauders at this ridicolous prize and production costs. ... a 50 mill domi can solo a 120mill diemos. Yet people still buy hacs. Different ships have different roles. That was my point. Marauders weren't meant to be exactly like navy issue bs's but better. That isn't the same thing as saying Marauders arent better than navy issue bs's. They are DIFFERENT. what the hell are you talking about? HACs arent missionrunners. okay, for clearance: HACs are specced ships with a role that they are fulfilling great. marauders are specced ships with a role that they fulfill great too. now to the point: if HACs would cost in the 600m (before fitting), hardly anyone would fly them, because a domi can solo a HAC. got it? why spending 600m if a 50m ship can do the job? sure HACs have advantages and are great, but they have to be worth the prize-tag. with marauders its the same. fine they are a little better then faction BS, but they cost _not_ a little more then faction BS, they cost an absurd amount of ISK for such relativly small advantages. Originally by: Kira Direll a 900m salvage boat... suuuuuure. you have absolutely zero clue about what you are talking about. earlier in this thread someone mentioned exactly this. making a salvageboat from a marauder. maybe it was irony i dont know. Originally by: Kira Direll edit: nobody says that marauders do suck. You just got done doing exactly that. i did not. reading and understanding rules, mate. Quote: Think about it like this. When dvd players first came out not many people rushed out and bought them, but now everyone has atleast one. The first of these ships hit the open market less than a week ago. Did everyone really expect people to all line up and buy them all out at 1.3bill the first couple days they were available? Originally by: Kira Direll what has DVD players with a clear and huge advantage to do with marauders that offer very little (if ever) advantage over existing boats? Multiple extra high slots + better resists + extra combat bonuses is not an advantage? it is. but this relativly small advantage is in no way enough to make it 700m - 900m ISK worth. Quote: People arent expecting them to be far beter than the faction ships but for the price of them people expect them to be better than the tier 3 battleships, The paladin is costing 800m -1 billion isk at the moment and the abaddon 140-150m. The abaddon is the better ship. Does exactly the same ammount of dmg an almost twice as well. Its the same for the other races. The only Marauder that does look worth flying is the Vargur but then it only tanks slightly better than the maelstrom for 4-5x the price. T2 battleships FTL thats what im talking about. T2 BS arent bad. they have all the nice boni, etc. but they arent worth the money they cost to be produced. --- Disclaimer: sadly, all dumbass opinions or expressions i make _do_ reflect on my corp. they might not reflect on individual members, but who am i to not take responsibility and act accoordingly?
Kuseka Adama Gallente WOLFPACK DELTA	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:19:00 - [60] If the black ops don't sell its only because they don't trust them to be safely bought. The black ops are the scariest ships i have ever seen. The stealth bomber had a limited role. On the other hand you can quite literally turn the black ops into ANY kind of ship. Mission runner? Sure thing no problem. Gate camper? With ease. High speed strike force commander? Yep that too. Front line fighter? Ohhh hell yeah. This is a ship thats going to be produced as much as possible but probably sold on a very small scale. And i cant blame them when you look at what one of those things can do. Covert ops have gone to a whole new level because of this class. Do not be surprised if you only ever see one or two of these in high sec. The black ops is one hell of a zero sec ship and its gonna be used there. The versatility of this ship can not be overstated.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:32:00 - [61] Originally by: Kuseka Adama If the black ops don't sell its only because they don't trust them to be safely bought. The black ops are the scariest ships i have ever seen. The stealth bomber had a limited role. On the other hand you can quite literally turn the black ops into ANY kind of ship. Mission runner? Sure thing no problem. Gate camper? With ease. High speed strike force commander? Yep that too. Front line fighter? Ohhh hell yeah. This is a ship thats going to be produced as much as possible but probably sold on a very small scale. And i cant blame them when you look at what one of those things can do. Covert ops have gone to a whole new level because of this class. Do not be surprised if you only ever see one or two of these in high sec. The black ops is one hell of a zero sec ship and its gonna be used there. The versatility of this ship can not be overstated. Shhhhh.....don't tell people these very valuble secrets if they haven't figured it out yet. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Drachma Golea Caldari Egnop	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:36:00 - [62] Somehow the Kronos for example attracts my attention, doing level 4 missions with a tractor beam and 2 salvagers would be nicer than having to jump in and out for a hauler/salvager. iirc atm the CNR is the way to do missions, and with a proper fit it'll be expensive too...
F90OEX	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:43:00 - [63] I'll stick to my CNR Sales ....
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:52:00 - [64] Originally by: Kuseka Adama If the black ops don't sell its only because they don't trust them to be safely bought. The black ops are the scariest ships i have ever seen. The stealth bomber had a limited role. On the other hand you can quite literally turn the black ops into ANY kind of ship. Mission runner? Sure thing no problem. Gate camper? With ease. High speed strike force commander? Yep that too. Front line fighter? Ohhh hell yeah. This is a ship thats going to be produced as much as possible but probably sold on a very small scale. And i cant blame them when you look at what one of those things can do. Covert ops have gone to a whole new level because of this class. Do not be surprised if you only ever see one or two of these in high sec. The black ops is one hell of a zero sec ship and its gonna be used there. The versatility of this ship can not be overstated. Some of the Black-ops are versatile some are nto due to there lack of dmg output. Thy are all excellent at what they are supposed to do but lack the tanks or dmg of a normal bs for other types of work, same with the marauders superb for mission runners to do ther high sec missions in. Not good for general pvp and too expensive to low sec mission run in asyou know full wellassoon as someone sees it in space they gona go all out to gank it.
insulubria	Posted - 2007.12.18 15:59:00 - [65] This golem is badarse! Mara lvl 3 = 880ish shield boost from my MEDIUM shield booster mara lvl 4 = 920 boost per 3second cycle my lowest resistance is 80%kinetic highest 90%thermal so 4xCN siege's 3xcn bcu's are doing wtf awsome. The 40km tractorbeam range and 1250m3 cargobay is sweet. with 2 beams on, i put a drone range link, so i can send drones 71km chew down on npc's before they drive into my torpedo range. usually i dont loot, but hey since i've got the room and the range for tractor beams.. I guess it makes up for the 16-25% drop in damage from the cnr.. someone calculated 16% drop.. but i dont think they realize.. CNR mission runners use FIVE navy BCU's most of the time. The 3% on the last bcu is worth its slot when you've got a perma tank already. However i've noticed a glitch.. my torp range is 40km the enemy is 30km and driving towards me. I thought it was lag, at first but.. out of 20 torpedos 9 did no damage. they just fking missed.. Im sure if I make a thread about it, it'll be full of TORP RANGE NERF spam in 5seconds.. but I was well within range, the lifespan of the torpedo was not reached. The torpedo was not chasing a frigate for 8 seconds, it was flying straight towards an oncoming battleship that was already in range.
Aranbaal Minmatar Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.18 16:07:00 - [66] If your not target painting then ur torps will suck. But yeah its a nice mission ship thats it .
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.18 17:17:00 - [67] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Newbie manufacturers/inventors are the problem. Pimp inventors/manufacturers know how to make isk outta this So mr Pimp, since you're a pimp and all... with current component buy order prices, you actualy try and invent t2 BS's? I assume you've got your own t2 component production line ofcourse... if not and you have a t2 component provider, you've got yourself a nice sucker
Westly Synpa GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.18 17:27:00 - [68] Originally by: insulubria This golem is badarse! Mara lvl 3 = 880ish shield boost from my MEDIUM shield booster mara lvl 4 = 920 boost per 3second cycle my lowest resistance is 80%kinetic highest 90%thermal so 4xCN siege's 3xcn bcu's are doing wtf awsome. The 40km tractorbeam range and 1250m3 cargobay is sweet. with 2 beams on, i put a drone range link, so i can send drones 71km chew down on npc's before they drive into my torpedo range. usually i dont loot, but hey since i've got the room and the range for tractor beams.. I guess it makes up for the 16-25% drop in damage from the cnr.. someone calculated 16% drop.. but i dont think they realize.. CNR mission runners use FIVE navy BCU's most of the time. The 3% on the last bcu is worth its slot when you've got a perma tank already. However i've noticed a glitch.. my torp range is 40km the enemy is 30km and driving towards me. I thought it was lag, at first but.. out of 20 torpedos 9 did no damage. they just fking missed.. Im sure if I make a thread about it, it'll be full of TORP RANGE NERF spam in 5seconds.. but I was well within range, the lifespan of the torpedo was not reached. The torpedo was not chasing a frigate for 8 seconds, it was flying straight towards an oncoming battleship that was already in range. The largest problem with Torps right now is they dont get up to speed fast enough they still have the old calculation for rate of speed increase do you only get about 65% of max range out of them because of this.
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.12.18 17:28:00 - [69] I've only seriously evaluated the golem since my mission running char is trained Caldari And, I have no plans to get one. It's arguable that it's not even an improvement over the CNR. It seems like it would make a great 'in between' ship taking you from the raven to the CNR, as it has a better tank than the raven, but by the time you can get a CNR your tank should be fine. If the golem were cheaper, and it's skill requirements less absurdly high, I could see folks buying one to get out of a raven and into something with a better tank, as the built in golem advantages help make up for a weakness in skills and fittings. Unfortunately being as skill intensive and expensive as it is, it can't really be used to fit this niche. Maybe they'll be boosted in the future. That would be kind of nice.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.12.19 00:20:00 - [70] Some pretty good discussion here so far. What do you guys think would help fix the really low sales performance of the new T2 BS? Do you think that they need to be buffed in order to offer more value for the ISK? Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Roland San	Posted - 2007.12.19 02:59:00 - [71] Because it is skill intensive and expensive, doesn't that make it all the more attractive? If I were highly skilled, and had isk to burn, I'd love to have a marauder, not because of how it differs from a CNR, but because it's an elite BS. It has qualities of its own, and I suspect much of the fun would be experimenting with fits and situations to extract the best out of it, and to see what kind of niche it will absolutely own. While it may appear on the surface to be a CNR II, I'd agree with one of the comments above about how it's different. It's another BS option, and it's about how it fits with your style of play. That being said, while I can invent and build them, I'd just wait for the T2 component silly season to settle a bit first. At this point in time, in terms of profitability, it's just a sea of red. I guess most people know that, and apart from the early adopters or those who've stockpiled components for their builds, it's hard to see the situation changing unless component prices stabilise.
Attonasi Aranas de Guerra	Posted - 2007.12.19 04:35:00 - [72] I am going to focus on the CNR vs. Golem discussion since these are mission running ships and CNR's are considered the best solo mission running ship now. The numbers are not obvious either way and the slight paper difference in DPS gives the advantage to the CNR at first. The built in CCC of a golem negates the 1 slot advantage the CNR has over the golem for rigs. The 7.5%/lvl booster bonus is effectively an additional mid slot giving the golem essentially 2 more midslots than a CNR. IMO the dps advantage the CNR has on paper is negated when you factor the target painter bonus and free target painter you get. We were able to 1 volley cruisers in missions on sisi. And the tank was of course still far superior even without a shield boost amp. I haven't tried it yet though I think the tractor beam bonus will make it possible to start looting again as the Golem could group up the cans while killing and severely reduce looting.salvage time after missions. Right now it takes way too long to loot and it isn't worth the time. I think that as people realize some of the hidden strangths of the Golem they will get over their spreadsheet fixation. Also if people are only interested in cash they only run high sec missions. Low sec missions are for adrenaline and nothing else, and thats not a bad thing. There will be very few golems getting ganked in low sec. I hate forums
Attonasi Aranas de Guerra	Posted - 2007.12.19 04:56:00 - [73] I guess I should also post a bit about the production and cost side since our group has built and sold Widows, Panthers, and Redeemers. We have BPO's, produce our own bpc's, and manufacture all of the components from material we buy from the market. We have maxed invention skills for these three races on our industrial toons and of course maxed building skills. They are also mining datacores from the appropriate agents. We account for these costs as we could just scrap the project and sell the BPC's and datacores. I have a degree in business that I don't use in RL, but somehow find a way to apply to eve, go figure. We planned for this release for the last month and stocked up on a lot of materials and components before the release and consequently have a lot of components we bought cheap and are worth a lot of money now. If nothing else we participated in some impromptu futures trading. To explicitly answer the question we are going to lose money on the ships. The materials that build the ships could all be sold for more at the current market prices than the finished product. We made money because of the inflation in material cost. I believe that component/material costs will drop over the next months to more suitable levels and there will be a corresponding drop in T2 ship prices that will negate the current inflationary period cause by the component price spike. All of the crap and whining about how ships are too expensive and people are losing money building them will be forgotten and eve will move on. I think the price spike in materials drove the production costs of these ships up higher than their value and that is the scenario playing out now. When the cerebus came out there were no discussions about whether or not it was better than a caracal or even a Navy issue caracal. The differences in power were equivalent to the difference in skill req's and build costs. I think Golems are better, but not that much better, and in order to justify that cost the differences should be more like comparing stabbers and vagabonds. I hate forums
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.12.19 05:05:00 - [74] Thanks for your input Attonasi, that's exactly the kind of info I've been looking for. I agree that the performance difference and cost/benefit issues with the Marauders over what is already available (who ever thought that faction BS would be considered 'cheap' lol?) need some work before Marauders are sought after by the general Eve population. To that end, what sort of buffs would be enough to make them worthwhile? Both Marauders and BlackOps? Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Meyesta Gallente The Pretty Things	Posted - 2007.12.19 05:30:00 - [75] I only went about inventing the Widow. It has turned out to be a huge mistake. There is no profit currently on these things. I've built two and they haven't sold, plus I have components for another two. I believe this is due to the insane requirements to fly them, jump skills, covert ops skills, BS 5. Only current capital pilots have the options to fly these. Those capital pilots now need a reason to fly them. The only real reason to fly them is for their Portal. As for fast moving gangs they don't really cut it and when caught will die, particularly with Heavy Intradictors. However this adds additional skill requirements, plus an additional character with a mod that is insanely expensive on their covert ops. Not to mention extra skill requirements. So their actual role in combat is limited and well other things do it better. When I worked out the cost of building and inventing the widows, I came up with 780mil buying components from Jita. I worked out I could drop my overall costs if I built all the components myself, by maybe 20%. But due to component build time and amount of components required, production slows down, even with multiple component BPO's. I guess my problem with this is T2 BS require a huge investment of ISK to be part of, roughly 780mil per BS you haven't sold, meaning you need components and materials in reserve, etc.. etc.. to keep your production chain ticking over. Alone I can't even come close to keeping this up as my ISK reserves just died, no sales means no income, meaning no more BS in production. Meaning this was production for the super wealthy corporations, like they need more avenues to add to their insane wealth. To anyone who said this was an ISK sink, I really can't see how you can believe that. All this is doing is shuffling ISK around to other players. I would also suggest that the players who are getting the vast bulk of the ISK out of this, are already super rich. The skills, well if they were enough of an ISK sink, then inflation wouldn't be a problem as we are always buying skills for most characters we own.
Renosha Argaron Caldari IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.12.19 05:35:00 - [76] There is someone in choonka trying to sell a Marauder for 1.8 BIL!!!.....personaly i would'nt buy one at that price but im sure there is an idiot out there willing to fork out for it so they can be one of the first to have one.
Calimor Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.19 06:01:00 - [77] Originally by: Demarcus Ya a Caldari BS with three heavy energy neuts and the equivalent of eight cruise launchers and an extra mid slot for tank. Man that sucks I don't know why anyone would want one of those. You're trolling, right? Yea I think you are.
Calimor Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.19 06:13:00 - [78] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Thanks for your input Attonasi, that's exactly the kind of info I've been looking for. I agree that the performance difference and cost/benefit issues with the Marauders over what is already available (who ever thought that faction BS would be considered 'cheap' lol?) need some work before Marauders are sought after by the general Eve population. To that end, what sort of buffs would be enough to make them worthwhile? Both Marauders and BlackOps? Golems would be much more popular if instead of TP they had a RoF Bonus, because of the Torpedo range nerf. People has been asking it for a while, and they'd be much better if that was the case because they would finally have an advantage over the Raven/CNR instead of being a much more expensive trade-off.
insulubria	Posted - 2007.12.19 06:30:00 - [79] Doing about 1000dps atm, on overload. Im toating around Nanite repair paste for good measure.. avg resistance 85% (91% on overload) 310 shields per second(sustainable) 3 tractor beams, i just got 1380hit against a mwd'ing cruiser :D holy f**K im never going back to a cnr.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.12.19 09:30:00 - [80] Originally by: Calimor Originally by: Bellum Eternus Thanks for your input Attonasi, that's exactly the kind of info I've been looking for. I agree that the performance difference and cost/benefit issues with the Marauders over what is already available (who ever thought that faction BS would be considered 'cheap' lol?) need some work before Marauders are sought after by the general Eve population. To that end, what sort of buffs would be enough to make them worthwhile? Both Marauders and BlackOps? Golems would be much more popular if instead of TP they had a RoF Bonus, because of the Torpedo range nerf. People has been asking it for a while, and they'd be much better if that was the case because they would finally have an advantage over the Raven/CNR instead of being a much more expensive trade-off. LOL. RoF bonus on a Golem. Don't think so. Doing even more dps than it already does while tanking like crazy... See the post from the guy above me. Hits the nail on the head. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
pershphanie Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2007.12.19 11:42:00 - [81] Originally by: insulubria Doing about 1000dps atm, on overload. Im toating around Nanite repair paste for good measure.. avg resistance 85% (91% on overload) 310 shields per second(sustainable) 3 tractor beams, i just got 1380hit against a mwd'ing cruiser :D holy f**K im never going back to a cnr. lol. but everyone who tried them on EFT or quickfit says they suck. you must be mistaken.
Brackun the united	Posted - 2007.12.19 13:01:00 - [82] I was in my Golem on test with Marauders level 2, and I can safely say when I'm sitting in FFA1 that it is an absolute beast. My perspective is skewed using a full Crystal set, but I tanked about 5 battleships and blew up an Abaddon and Kronos before popping (I tanked approximately 130k damage). It doesn't seem like a bad ship at all. To me it's worth the price on Tranquility, with Marauders 5 I predict fun times ahead. Of course maybe there are ships that tank more damage than that, and defeat more battleships under the same circumstances, but my Golem only went down when it got hit by a neutralizer Dominix .
Fer DeLance	Posted - 2007.12.19 13:04:00 - [83] Beeing a gallente, i was looking forward to buying a Kronos... but now that i see the ship specs, i really try, but i can not find any good point to buy it (for running Level IV missions). I am using a Mega Navy Issue, and no matter how i compare it to the Kronos, i alway come to the conclusion that the Mega is doing the job better... Kronos has bigger Calibration, but good luck with those 2 rig slots in comparison to 3 rig slots of the Navy Mega... Kronos has slightly better resistance in both kinetic and thermal, but Navy Mega has an extra low slot (where you can fit any type of armor hardener). Kronos has much less power grid. Of course 4 of it's weapons will do the same damage as all 8 weapon slots of Navy Mega... I really don't think that you can use those extra high slots for anything else than maybe slavagers and tractor beams... Even if powergrid is enough for a couple or more of Heavy Nos (i doupt it), CPU wont be enough... To increase either powergrid or CPU one will have to "waste" a valuable low slot... or maybe one of those two rig slots... What i really believe Kronos is missing in order to be a serious choise, is one more low slot... But i will buy one, and use it as a slavaging - looting boat. That's all i think it does best at the moment.
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.12.19 13:13:00 - [84] Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: insulubria Doing about 1000dps atm, on overload. Im toating around Nanite repair paste for good measure.. avg resistance 85% (91% on overload) 310 shields per second(sustainable) 3 tractor beams, i just got 1380hit against a mwd'ing cruiser :D holy f**K im never going back to a cnr. lol. but everyone who tried them on EFT or quickfit says they suck. you must be mistaken. Well, he's not mistaken because a Golem tanks a lot better then a CNR. But if you use it for missions you will need a tank that is just enough. If you compare a CNR and a Golem with such a tank you'll notice the CNR has more DPS and thus will do missions quicker. So a Golem is a very nice ship and is very easy for missions because it has a much better tank, but it does not do them quicker. On Sisi i've flown several missions with a Golem and it's much easier, but still slower. A golem is a great ship and i will probably buy one sooner or later, but it does not beat the CNR at missionrunning.
Kira Direll Niflhel TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2007.12.19 14:25:00 - [85] Edited by: Kira Direll on 19/12/2007 14:32:23 Originally by: Fer DeLance Kronos has much less power grid. Of course 4 of it's weapons will do the same damage as all 8 weapon slots of Navy Mega... I really don't think that you can use those extra high slots for anything else than maybe slavagers and tractor beams... Even if powergrid is enough for a couple or more of Heavy Nos (i doupt it), CPU wont be enough... To increase either powergrid or CPU one will have to "waste" a valuable low slot... or maybe one of those two rig slots... actually you can fit the weapons, 2 diminishing heavy NOS and a decent tank (maybe a tank that is just enough for missions, meaning no permatank) all with one PDU II in the lows. its not that bad but cost/benefit is way out of balance. edit: and the same tank as permatank without PDU II and slightly less DPS you can get with a 120 million hyperion (before fitting). spending 600 million more ISK just for the possibilities of salvagers, tractors and a bigger cargohold (perhaps better tracking on some) or not is up to the buyer/user. to me the advantages arent worth 600 million. Originally by: Okkie2 Well, he's not mistaken because a Golem tanks a lot better then a CNR. But if you use it for missions you will need a tank that is just enough. If you compare a CNR and a Golem with such a tank you'll notice the CNR has more DPS and thus will do missions quicker. So a Golem is a very nice ship and is very easy for missions because it has a much better tank, but it does not do them quicker. the golem has other advantages, thats not the point. its cost/benefit. the golem may be worth 600-700 million (dont know the CNR prizes atm) but most of the other marauders are not. its not the marauders that suck, its the cost/benefit that sucks. --- Disclaimer: sadly, all dumbass opinions or expressions i make _do_ reflect on my corp. they might not reflect on individual members, but who am i to not take responsibility and act accoordingly?
Reiisha Splint Eye Probabilities Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.29 22:04:00 - [86] I wonder why people keep saying that the Abaddon is better than the Paladin. 1) Paladin has a built in, HUGE cap bonus, negating the the difference in rig slots. A Paladin doesn't even need cap rigs to sustain it's cap at all, whereas the Abaddon pretty much always needs all 3 slots filled with CCC's. How people think that this isn't a clear win for the Paladin is beyond me. 2) Paladin can fit 4 guns AND 3 utility slots. It does the same damage as an Abaddon at level 5 marauders (a skill i will be training), but where it stops there for the Abaddon, the Paladin can fit 3 mroe mods in it's highs without sacrificing damage. Try it with neuts, nos, salvagars or whatever. 3) Paladin has slightly higher exp/kin resists, plus a 7.5% rep bonus per level. At level 5 marauders this means effectively about 40% better tanking than an Abaddon in comparable setups. 4) More low slots available on the Paladin, largely because of it's cap efficiency. The abaddon needs a CPR in it's lows to run a dual rep setup, the Paladin does not. On dual rep setups, this effectively means the Paladin has 3 slots more 'free', 1 low and 2 rig slots, than the Abaddon. The only area where the Abaddon outshines the Paladin is a PvP buffer tank rather than an active tank, but the difference is less pronounced than the advantages the Paladin has over the Abaddon in other areas. The sensor strength is the only real weakpoint of the Paladin currently, and when ECM is involved, it mostly doesn't matter whether you have 10 or 30 sensor strength, you'll be jammed anyway. Of course, the Abaddon is vastly preferable in PvP simply because it costs so much less, and as far as PvP is involved, the extra costs of the Paladin doesn't weigh up to any advantage it may bring in PvP. However, for PvE, the Paladin easily outperforms the Abaddon in all areas. EVE History Wiki
J Valkor Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.12.29 22:47:00 - [87] The black ops seems like excellent ships. Just the super high skill requirements. The first major group that gets their use down is going to have a week or two of utter domination before the enemy adjusts.
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2007.12.29 23:58:00 - [88] Originally by: Tharrn It might take a while but at some point the idiots will figure out that selling barely above cost isn't worth the hassle :P you want to put a friendly wager on this actually happening? go look at the morons selling implants in jita. an implant that costs 11 million isk and 11k lp are being sold for 14 and 15 million isk. this has been going on for a while so apparently those guys aren't learning anything from their experiences.
oniplE Aliastra	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:08:00 - [89] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: Joss Sparq Edited by: Joss Sparq on 18/12/2007 14:36:23 Originally by: Gner Dechast Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 18/12/2007 11:16:23 Cost to build mauroder = 600mil including invention costs. This 800-900mil nonsense is what the manufacturers want you to beleive! /me has plenty of maurader BPC's & builds them I don't know what your angle is, gross failure in math or some secret source for components - maybe something else... I've done my share of calculations and I concur with the more popular conclusion that the build price really is 800-900mill /signed, I too call shenanigans upon them. yeah, and the Abaddon costs 180mil to build. Newbie manufacturers/inventors are the problem. Pimp inventors/manufacturers know how to make isk outta this You know, i started calculating to prove you wrong cuz there's no chance they have a build + invention cost of 600m, or thats what i thought... I used fair prices and came up with a build + invention cost of 630m, using the proper decryptor(s). Using no decryptors will push it towards 800m, same as using the wrong decryptor. x
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.30 00:15:00 - [90] CCP mistake: Spend more than 2 second thinkign on making somethign for carebears. Next time CCP, remember this game is about industry and combat. And give us a REAL tier 3 T2 BS when the time comes. A real PVP ship. Somethign that wil make me put 1 bil isk for pvp. BEcause if you give me somethign better than a machariel, I will for sure spend isk on it. And say good work CCP. And tell my friends how this game rules. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

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