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Wizard Without Reason	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:42:00 - [61] Edited by: Wizard on 23/12/2007 11:45:11 Originally by: Silverized Nerfing speed as heavy as many of you propos will prettymuch remove involuntary pvp from 0.0. And thats when i quit eve. People wont go 30-40jumps in a slowass ship, first of all it will take hours to accualy get somewhere, and you cant bypass camps and other stuff when you fly solo or in smaller gangs. Then if you accouly makes it alive to the hostile area in your tanked up ship you might get a few kills and then get camped in:( Speed is needed to keep the gameplay atleast semi fast. if everyone has to spend hours and hours doing a roam in hostle teritory none will bother, or atleast there wont be as much pvp as it is today. And ofcause thats great for all the whining ******s and sits in thier allince space all day farming isk and what not. But every respecable pvper should stand behind a massive speednerf. After all its gotta be better to fight a nanogang then fight nothing at all. I really dont follow how nerfing speed of ships will make it overly slow travelling through 0.0. I still fly through 0.0 in a bs roaming with only an alt for scouting to try avoid big camps ( not that hard tbh ), and i reckon the last gang i was in was my bs and 2 buddies in interceptors, on the 20+ jump route into our 0.0 excursion i think they maybe waited once for me for like 30 secs and i was in plated bs. Theres now warp to 0km, its not slow travelling anywhere in eve........people are just lazy and dont want to take risks anymore. There will still be voluntary pvp in 0.0 because most "solo" players use an alt or people are in gangs with some kinda of scout. Speed decrease accross the bopard wont change life in 0.0 at all apart from removing lame nano hac players etc and forcing them into commiting to a fight they choose to engage once scouting a target...how it bloody should be. edit...... Also i very rarely see interceptor gangs roaming 0.0 now, im not saying i dont like killing big ships but people used to fly interceptors etc in gangs because it would make it a fast gang... Lets get people back in gangs that should be fast.
Dreadpilot Roberts Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:46:00 - [62] You have obviously never flown a vaga and are talking out of your ass based on things that you heard from your mates. It's supposed to be hard to kill, it's a 250 mil ship ( including polies and fit ) and it's skill intensive. and NO it is not withing falloff at 22k. That's only with mad skills at lvl5 including hac 5, and falloff rigs + implants which is ridiculous. Oh and ppl dont use barrage on vagas .... And as long as it cant kill you with its crappy dps and it's tank is paper-thin and a small pilot-error or low reflex can get it popped ... I dunno what all of the fuss is about. First try flying it and then start to whine about it. I'm Amarr and I trained Minnie cruiser V cuz I thought once I get sleipnir and vaga all my troubles would end but you whiners cannot even begin to imagine the problems that you find yourself up against when trying to fit a nano ship and how many sacrifices you have to make to reach those speeds. Next thing you know you're gonna start whining to ccp that you cant blow up asteroids and stations in your drakes right ? Cuz that's what a solo vaga is to a well pvp-fitted ship ( bc hac command recon or bs. ) a crappy object orbitting you and waiting for you to get agressed by rats to do the job for him I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?
Verlaine Glariant Knights of the Flame Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:47:00 - [63] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Would you kindly permit me to assume stewardship over your worldly goods? Trans: Can I have your stuff? Verlaine Glariant. Tactical Weapons Specialist. AMPHYSVENA WEBSITE COMING SOON
Dreadpilot Roberts Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:51:00 - [64] Originally by: Wizard Edited by: Wizard on 23/12/2007 11:45:11 Originally by: Silverized Nerfing speed as heavy as many of you propos will prettymuch remove involuntary pvp from 0.0. And thats when i quit eve. People wont go 30-40jumps in a slowass ship, first of all it will take hours to accualy get somewhere, and you cant bypass camps and other stuff when you fly solo or in smaller gangs. Then if you accouly makes it alive to the hostile area in your tanked up ship you might get a few kills and then get camped in:( Speed is needed to keep the gameplay atleast semi fast. if everyone has to spend hours and hours doing a roam in hostle teritory none will bother, or atleast there wont be as much pvp as it is today. And ofcause thats great for all the whining ******s and sits in thier allince space all day farming isk and what not. But every respecable pvper should stand behind a massive speednerf. After all its gotta be better to fight a nanogang then fight nothing at all. I really dont follow how nerfing speed of ships will make it overly slow travelling through 0.0. I still fly through 0.0 in a bs roaming with only an alt for scouting to try avoid big camps ( not that hard tbh ), and i reckon the last gang i was in was my bs and 2 buddies in interceptors, on the 20+ jump route into our 0.0 excursion i think they maybe waited once for me for like 30 secs and i was in plated bs. Theres now warp to 0km, its not slow travelling anywhere in eve........people are just lazy and dont want to take risks anymore. There will still be voluntary pvp in 0.0 because most "solo" players use an alt or people are in gangs with some kinda of scout. Speed decrease accross the bopard wont change life in 0.0 at all apart from removing lame nano hac players etc and forcing them into commiting to a fight they choose to engage once scouting a target...how it bloody should be. edit...... Also i very rarely see interceptor gangs roaming 0.0 now, im not saying i dont like killing big ships but people used to fly interceptors etc in gangs because it would make it a fast gang... Lets get people back in gangs that should be fast. Sure lets just all click approach turn tank on and f1-f8 and wait for the outcome. Now that's smart game-play for ya. CCP nerfed amarr and gallente recons so a big part of e-war is gone now, if a nano-nerf is gonna happed then eve will be reduced to a tank&gank only kinda game-play and that is B.S. P.S. try and post in a thread about pvp ships when you know what pvp actually is and you are familiar with all the races and most of the ships, not just your ubar drake u use for mission-running. I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:00:00 - [65] Originally by: Xequecal You are completely missing the point. The Vagabond isn't overpowered because it can kill everything. The Vagabond is overpowered because it's impossible to kill it. If the vaga isn't caught near a station or a gate, you can kill it provided your gang is specifically set up for anti-nanoship warfare. If the complaint refers to vagas engaged near a gate or station, then many ships can either redock or reach the gate without any particular need to be nanoed, so I don't see how nanoships could be singled out for a tactic available to such wide range of ships. The most common complaint is that nanoships can engage at will since they will be able to escape if things don't unfold as expected. But whiners often conveniently forget to specify that they did not set up their gang for that precise task. A simple gallente/minmatar recon combo well set up can be deadly for most nanoships. It's none of the nanopilots responsability that so few players train for these recons, and even less seem willing to work togheter. Hell, it's like complaining against streets awash with gangs while not bothering to fund and train police forces...
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:02:00 - [66] Originally by: Xequecal You are completely missing the point. The Vagabond isn't overpowered because it can kill everything. The Vagabond is overpowered because it's impossible to kill it. Or maybe you just suck at pvp, because we seem to be killing Vagabonds on a daily basis. Here's small selection of proof: http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16968 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16547 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16251 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16160 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15757 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15759 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15642 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15514 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15469 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15385 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16529 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13942 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13938 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14302 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14853 Vagabonds are fine, and so is speed. Eve is being dumbed down for dummies.
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:08:00 - [67] Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts You have obviously never flown a vaga and are talking out of your ass based on things that you heard from your mates. It's supposed to be hard to kill, it's a 250 mil ship ( including polies and fit ) and it's skill intensive. and NO it is not withing falloff at 22k. That's only with mad skills at lvl5 including hac 5, and falloff rigs + implants which is ridiculous. Oh and ppl dont use barrage on vagas .... And as long as it cant kill you with its crappy dps and it's tank is paper-thin and a small pilot-error or low reflex can get it popped ... I dunno what all of the fuss is about. First try flying it and then start to whine about it. I'm Amarr and I trained Minnie cruiser V cuz I thought once I get sleipnir and vaga all my troubles would end but you whiners cannot even begin to imagine the problems that you find yourself up against when trying to fit a nano ship and how many sacrifices you have to make to reach those speeds. Next thing you know you're gonna start whining to ccp that you cant blow up asteroids and stations in your drakes right ? Cuz that's what a solo vaga is to a well pvp-fitted ship ( bc hac command recon or bs. ) a crappy object orbitting you and waiting for you to get agressed by rats to do the job for him If you think about what sacrilege and ishtars can do compared to vagas, the simple fact that vaga-whining is recurring shows how much the majority of non-nano pilots are clueless.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:08:00 - [68] Originally by: Silverized Nerfing speed as heavy as many of you propos will prettymuch remove involuntary pvp from 0.0. And thats when i quit eve. People wont go 30-40jumps in a slowass ship, first of all it will take hours to accualy get somewhere, and you cant bypass camps and other stuff when you fly solo or in smaller gangs. Then if you accouly makes it alive to the hostile area in your tanked up ship you might get a few kills and then get camped in:( once before they introduced warp to 0 you had to haver bookmarks for the whole regoin for EACH gate. moving a gang from a-b was terible! usualy you had to wait 5min at each gate so that the fc could gangwarp everybody. travelign was a logistic painintheass^2 but still we were flying 40 jumps just to get this figth going on. and if you quit can i have stuffz urs?:)
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:12:00 - [69] Originally by: Semkhet But whiners often conveniently forget to specify that they did not set up their gang for that precise task. Did you set up your vagabond specifially to kill my insertshyptipe? NO you didn't! you use your cooky cutter set up for everything.
Silverized Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:24:00 - [70] Edited by: Silverized on 23/12/2007 12:24:55 Originally by: d026 Originally by: Silverized Nerfing speed as heavy as many of you propos will prettymuch remove involuntary pvp from 0.0. And thats when i quit eve. People wont go 30-40jumps in a slowass ship, first of all it will take hours to accualy get somewhere, and you cant bypass camps and other stuff when you fly solo or in smaller gangs. Then if you accouly makes it alive to the hostile area in your tanked up ship you might get a few kills and then get camped in:( once before they introduced warp to 0 you had to haver bookmarks for the whole regoin for EACH gate. moving a gang from a-b was terible! usualy you had to wait 5min at each gate so that the fc could gangwarp everybody. travelign was a logistic painintheass^2 but still we were flying 40 jumps just to get this figth going on. and if you quit can i have stuffz urs?:) But aint it better as its currently working, no long waiting times and abit faster gameplay. I¦ve been there and done that, roaming in BS worked when there was 10000 users peaking the server at sundays... but nowdays its 40000 users at peak and you meat huge blobs prettymuch where ever you go. Hell even a 20-30man gang aint that much nowdays, solo or small gang roaming in slow ships doest work unless you wanna spend the evening camped in somewhere ------------------------------

Annowyn Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:25:00 - [71] Edited by: Annowyn on 23/12/2007 12:25:20 Originally by: Avataris Originally by: Xequecal You are completely missing the point. The Vagabond isn't overpowered because it can kill everything. The Vagabond is overpowered because it's impossible to kill it. Or maybe you just suck at pvp, because we seem to be killing Vagabonds on a daily basis. Here's small selection of proof: http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16968 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16547 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16251 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16160 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15757 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15759 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15642 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15514 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15469 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15385 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16529 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13942 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13938 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14302 http://www.veritas-immortalis.info/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14853 Vagabonds are fine, and so is speed. Eve is being dumbed down for dummies. Yes, it does in fact look like you managed to blob a couple of vags. Cookie?
King Hopy Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:29:00 - [72] Edited by: King Hopy on 23/12/2007 12:31:50 Good.. vagabond is impossible to kill? I wonder how I have managed to lose so many of em. And not even once was there a rapier / huginn involved. I guess you guys really know that speed is the only thing that a vagabond has? And furthermore, do you know how long the cap of a vaga lasts? With good skills somwhere between 1 - 2 min when running the mwd. So burst the mwd? Do you know how much for example a torp or a cruise missile hurts you when you have your mwd online but you are not going at full speed? Well, I can tell you that I got obliterated in matter of seconds by 2 ravens shooting torps at me. And I guess you also know that the dps of a vaga isn't enough to kill anything but cruisers and tier 1 bc's? If there is a drastic nerf in speed then the minmatar line of ships need a massive boost. And when nerfing speed I suggest we also nerf tanking alltogether. It's not fair that and abaddon can tank a small cruiser gang for 10 minutes. It's not fair that you need 3-4 vagabonds to break the tank of a passive drake. EDIT: Oh and also the deimos and all blaster ships need a nerf in damage. It's not fair that a deimos can do twice the damage of my vaga. It just is not. Actually I think we should remove all weapon upgrades or but some heavy penalties on them, for example -20% optimal per upgrade. And while at it let's turn lasers to pure EM-dmg and up their cap use by 100% because they are lasers afterall and they should use much more cap. Can we also please make interceptors so that they cant permarun a 20km disruptor.
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:36:00 - [73] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Semkhet But whiners often conveniently forget to specify that they did not set up their gang for that precise task. Did you set up your vagabond specifially to kill my insertshyptipe? NO you didn't! you use your cooky cutter set up for everything. If you can't tank a vaga's pathetic dps, then pretty much every ship could kill you And if you got ganked then it doesen't really matter if they were nanoships anyhow...
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:36:00 - [74] Originally by: Annowyn Edited by: Annowyn on 23/12/2007 12:25:20 Yes, it does in fact look like you managed to blob a couple of vags. Cookie? Congrats on proving my point. I just knew there would be someone like you. Presented with proof that vagabonds can (and are) killed on a daily basis you resort to the old 'but I cant kill them solo in my drake/battleship/insert shiptype here' This is why Eve is a multiplayer game, where working with a gang pays the best rewards. Ofcourse using tactics and team work must be an alien concept to you, so dont worry your pretty little head about it. Eve is being dumbed down for dummies.
nabort Immoral Tendancies	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:41:00 - [75] Edited by: nabort on 23/12/2007 12:41:30 First off, amongst other races HACs, I fly a Vagabond, so I may be biased. What I have discovered from flying them is this, however: 1. Cruise Missiles make life very hard for a Vagabond pilot, and since the Torpedo changes, Cruise are infinitely more common amongst 0.0 ratters (the Vagabond's arch-nemesis. 2. The Vagabond's DPS (when in falloff) is low, and so solo kills are much harder to achieve in them, which is fair enough. 3. Vagabonds are very cap unstable, and neuts will scare them off. 4. When padded out with overdrives, Vagabond's have impressive top speed, but their alignment speed is still slow enough to catch them with numerous ships. Being caught at a gate with a few hostiles either side is death for a Vagabond, unless the enemies are extremely stupid, since they can be tackled either side of the gate, and given a Rapier/Huginn, or some quick webbing inties, or even a Hyena a Vagabond wont survive a camp both sides of a gate. 5. Minmatar T2 ships can't fit an armor tank anywhere near as well as Gallente/Amarr HACs (to many resitance holes.) This means they rely on their shields, and given the lack of med slots to tank with (split tanking systems) they cant fit a shield tank as effectively as Caldari, meaning they have to augment their shield tanks with speed, (exceptions being the Sleipnir and Maelstrom, but not many people complain about them being too fast.) If you nerf speed, I forsee and increase in blobbing. Currently, the only ways to penetrate deep into 0.0 territory is by having some speed under your belt to avoid camps, or by blobbing up and scaring away camps. Remove one option and you promote the other.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:43:00 - [76] If nanos get nerfed then webs will need nerfing as well. Name one other module in eve that reduces another ship's attribute by 90%. Damps? TDs? Nope. ECM perhaps but then again to be effective at ECM you need a very specialized ship with all your slots dedicated to it while with webs you need...one mid slot and 30 CPU. Fact, a battleship that has webbed a hac should NOT be able to hit it with battleship sized guns. The tools a BS should use to combat smaller ships(bar BC sized) are neutralizers and drones, not their primary DPS, thats what support is for. But current state of the stasis webifier means battleships are valued above all due to their ability to essentially kill any ship smaller than itself. For example if you take away nanos there would be no point to be flying hacs over BCs, bigger would simply be better. AFs are useless, most people can agree, but why? Because cruisers and even battleships so easilly kill them once they're webbed, and typically(bar the jag) they cant go fast enough to avoid being webbed. Its a mutual imbalance, I'd whole heartedly support a nano nerf if webs get nerfed to something more reasonable. Right now they're just an on and off switch. Either you're webbed and dead in the water or you're not and free to manuver.
King Hopy Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:47:00 - [77] Originally by: Gamesguy If nanos get nerfed then webs will need nerfing as well. Name one other module in eve that reduces another ship's attribute by 90%. Damps? TDs? Nope. ECM perhaps but then again to be effective at ECM you need a very specialized ship with all your slots dedicated to it while with webs you need...one mid slot and 30 CPU. Fact, a battleship that has webbed a hac should NOT be able to hit it with battleship sized guns. The tools a BS should use to combat smaller ships(bar BC sized) are neutralizers and drones, not their primary DPS, thats what support is for. But current state of the stasis webifier means battleships are valued above all due to their ability to essentially kill any ship smaller than itself. For example if you take away nanos there would be no point to be flying hacs over BCs, bigger would simply be better. AFs are useless, most people can agree, but why? Because cruisers and even battleships so easilly kill them once they're webbed, and typically(bar the jag) they cant go fast enough to avoid being webbed. Its a mutual imbalance, I'd whole heartedly support a nano nerf if webs get nerfed to something more reasonable. Right now they're just an on and off switch. Either you're webbed and dead in the water or you're not and free to manuver. This is a very good point. For example having webs with optimal of 5km and falloff of 15km with around 50% stopping power would be a good idea. Then you could web the enemy by 50% at 5km or by 25% at 20km. Or similarily you could make webbin power proportional on the sig radius of the target. Or make them work like the current nos. You web someone, you will slow yourself down too.. I think that would be a bit too much thuogh ;)
Wizard Without Reason	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:07:00 - [78] Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts Originally by: Wizard Edited by: Wizard on 23/12/2007 11:45:11 Originally by: Silverized Nerfing speed as heavy as many of you propos will prettymuch remove involuntary pvp from 0.0. And thats when i quit eve. People wont go 30-40jumps in a slowass ship, first of all it will take hours to accualy get somewhere, and you cant bypass camps and other stuff when you fly solo or in smaller gangs. Then if you accouly makes it alive to the hostile area in your tanked up ship you might get a few kills and then get camped in:( Speed is needed to keep the gameplay atleast semi fast. if everyone has to spend hours and hours doing a roam in hostle teritory none will bother, or atleast there wont be as much pvp as it is today. And ofcause thats great for all the whining ******s and sits in thier allince space all day farming isk and what not. But every respecable pvper should stand behind a massive speednerf. After all its gotta be better to fight a nanogang then fight nothing at all. I really dont follow how nerfing speed of ships will make it overly slow travelling through 0.0. I still fly through 0.0 in a bs roaming with only an alt for scouting to try avoid big camps ( not that hard tbh ), and i reckon the last gang i was in was my bs and 2 buddies in interceptors, on the 20+ jump route into our 0.0 excursion i think they maybe waited once for me for like 30 secs and i was in plated bs. Theres now warp to 0km, its not slow travelling anywhere in eve........people are just lazy and dont want to take risks anymore. There will still be voluntary pvp in 0.0 because most "solo" players use an alt or people are in gangs with some kinda of scout. Speed decrease accross the bopard wont change life in 0.0 at all apart from removing lame nano hac players etc and forcing them into commiting to a fight they choose to engage once scouting a target...how it bloody should be. edit...... Also i very rarely see interceptor gangs roaming 0.0 now, im not saying i dont like killing big ships but people used to fly interceptors etc in gangs because it would make it a fast gang... Lets get people back in gangs that should be fast. Sure lets just all click approach turn tank on and f1-f8 and wait for the outcome. Now that's smart game-play for ya. CCP nerfed amarr and gallente recons so a big part of e-war is gone now, if a nano-nerf is gonna happed then eve will be reduced to a tank&gank only kinda game-play and that is B.S. P.S. try and post in a thread about pvp ships when you know what pvp actually is and you are familiar with all the races and most of the ships, not just your ubar drake u use for mission-running. lmao, you just cheered me up, picture you angrily at your keyboard at the p[rospect at having your no brainer setup taken away from you. M8 insult all you like and make yourself look foolish and call me a noob at pvp, without sounding bigheaded that does make me laugh, i reckon ive had more solo kills in last week then youve undocked in your nano fitted ships. Cya in space if you like.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:16:00 - [79] Originally by: Semkhet If the vaga isn't caught near a station or a gate, you can kill it provided your gang is specifically set up for anti-nanoship warfare. If the complaint refers to vagas engaged near a gate or station, then many ships can either redock or reach the gate without any particular need to be nanoed, so I don't see how nanoships could be singled out for a tactic available to such wide range of ships. The most common complaint is that nanoships can engage at will since they will be able to escape if things don't unfold as expected. But whiners often conveniently forget to specify that they did not set up their gang for that precise task. A simple gallente/minmatar recon combo well set up can be deadly for most nanoships. It's none of the nanopilots responsability that so few players train for these recons, and even less seem willing to work togheter. Hell, it's like complaining against streets awash with gangs while not bothering to fund and train police forces... If you assume perfect play by the Vagabond, it cannot be killed. If it's not at a station or gate, it can see the enemy gang warping as it warps in several seconds before they can even attempt to lock, giving it PLENTY of time to burn away. With that head start is has enough speed to escape anything, the only ships that can catch up are interceptors, and chasing directly after a fleeing Vagabond in an interceptor is suicidal because you drop your transversal. Hell, if the Vagabond is REALLY anal and constantly refreshes his scanner, he can see your gang's composition before you even get there. Now, obviously, assuming the Vagabond player will play perfectly is stupid. Nobody is perfect or even close to it. That's why Vagabonds get killed. However, the super-fast Vagabond has a much larger margin for error than you do. You have to play better than him if you want to catch him, and when that is the case, in ANY situation, an imbalance exists. Interceptors are just as difficult to kill as the Vagabond, but they lack the DPS to kill pretty much anything that has an actual tank. If you get locked down by a Crow in pretty much anything with a MWD and cap booster, you can just align to a celestial object and burn to the edge of the grid so he loses his lock on you and you can insta-warp. A Vagabond will kill you before you can manage this.
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:39:00 - [80] Originally by: Xequecal ..... You have to play better than him if you want to catch him, and when that is the case, in ANY situation, an imbalance exists...... I really don't understand your point here. Why is it imbalanced that you have to play BETTER than someone in order to catch them? Would it not be sad if you got caught by people playing WORSE than you? Is that not the whole crux of what PVP is all about?? Playing better than other people?

Xequecal	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:41:00 - [81] Originally by: Avataris Originally by: Xequecal ..... You have to play better than him if you want to catch him, and when that is the case, in ANY situation, an imbalance exists...... I really don't understand your point here. Why is it imbalanced that you have to play BETTER than someone in order to catch them? Would it not be sad if you got caught by people playing WORSE than you? Is that not the whole crux of what PVP is all about?? Playing better than other people? In non-nano ships you can get caught by people playing a lot worse than you are. The game mechanics mean there are many situations that you can not escape.
King Hopy Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:51:00 - [82] Originally by: Xequecal stuff Yes, because the vagabond's dps is truly awesome. Now take a look at these two graphs, the first one is a vagabond shooting at a cruiser sized target and both of the ships are sitting still. Vaga, not moving and the second one is hitting a target with 700m/s transversal (which would be pretty common for a vaga orbitting a slow moving target without mwd on.) Vaga, no mwd So look at that huge dps at the 13km point which is the overheated web range. Drones are excluded as you will be forced to leave them behind the first time they try to blob u. That or they are being killed by your target if he has half a brain. And this is with max skills.
Ratzap Gallente InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:56:00 - [83] Originally by: Peanut Swsh tbh the only ships most people fly these days are nano-ships. other ships like arazu curse, a lot of ships have just fallen into obscurity, if you don't do at least 3k/s for a cruiser sized ship, don't bother undocking most of the time. [shortened] QTF, everything is nano this, nano that and has been even since the "speed nerf" which only stopped nano BS. You get intel on a gang and it's always exactly the same - vagas, ishtar, rapier/huggin. Set a trap, bubble it up but if you don't have 2 long range webs for every single one of them you kill 1, maybe 2 and they're gone again. We have a monoculture and such simple win setups mean a paucity of actual skill from the pilot. Speed nerf of some sort is inveitable. Or make t2 large bubbles cap propulsion speeds inside them too. Ratzap
Inflexible Shokei	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:15:00 - [84] Originally by: Avataris Originally by: Annowyn Edited by: Annowyn on 23/12/2007 12:25:20 Yes, it does in fact look like you managed to blob a couple of vags. Cookie? Congrats on proving my point. I just knew there would be someone like you. Presented with proof that vagabonds can (and are) killed on a daily basis you resort to the old 'but I cant kill them solo in my drake/battleship/insert shiptype here' This is why Eve is a multiplayer game, where working with a gang pays the best rewards. Ofcourse using tactics and team work must be an alien concept to you, so dont worry your pretty little head about it. Eve is being dumbed down for dummies. Nanoship achieves its invulnerability via teamwork? Enlighten me.
King Hopy Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:16:00 - [85] Originally by: Inflexible Originally by: Avataris Originally by: Annowyn Edited by: Annowyn on 23/12/2007 12:25:20 Yes, it does in fact look like you managed to blob a couple of vags. Cookie? Congrats on proving my point. I just knew there would be someone like you. Presented with proof that vagabonds can (and are) killed on a daily basis you resort to the old 'but I cant kill them solo in my drake/battleship/insert shiptype here' This is why Eve is a multiplayer game, where working with a gang pays the best rewards. Ofcourse using tactics and team work must be an alien concept to you, so dont worry your pretty little head about it. Eve is being dumbed down for dummies. Nanoship achieves its invulnerability via teamwork? Enlighten me. A solo nanoship (par the ishtar) cant kill anything alone?
Inflexible Shokei	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:24:00 - [86] Originally by: King Hopy A solo nanoship (par the ishtar) cant kill anything alone? It can always try without risk. They are not overpowered in terms of killing power because half assed fitted ship can usually drive them away. They are overpowered in terms of invulnerability and griefing power. They enable to try picking easy targets without worry about tough ones.
King Hopy Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:37:00 - [87] Originally by: Inflexible Originally by: King Hopy A solo nanoship (par the ishtar) cant kill anything alone? It can always try without risk. They are not overpowered in terms of killing power because half assed fitted ship can usually drive them away. They are overpowered in terms of invulnerability and griefing power. They enable to try picking easy targets without worry about tough ones. By this reasoning carriers and motherships should be nerfed to hell and back too. They can kill any Bs or smaller ship with no real risk to themselves. And to this you will obviously respond that you can use this against them and trap the mothership. However you could do this with a nanoship too?
Dreadpilot Roberts Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:38:00 - [88] Edited by: Dreadpilot Roberts on 23/12/2007 14:42:02 Edited by: Dreadpilot Roberts on 23/12/2007 14:40:27 Originally by: Ratzap Originally by: Peanut Swsh tbh the only ships most people fly these days are nano-ships. other ships like arazu curse, a lot of ships have just fallen into obscurity, if you don't do at least 3k/s for a cruiser sized ship, don't bother undocking most of the time. [shortened] QTF, everything is nano this, nano that and has been even since the "speed nerf" which only stopped nano BS. You get intel on a gang and it's always exactly the same - vagas, ishtar, rapier/huggin. Set a trap, bubble it up but if you don't have 2 long range webs for every single one of them you kill 1, maybe 2 and they're gone again. We have a monoculture and such simple win setups mean a paucity of actual skill from the pilot. Speed nerf of some sort is inveitable. Or make t2 large bubbles cap propulsion speeds inside them too. Ratzap Actual skill from the pilot ? uhm yeah .... it really takes a lot of skill from you sitting confortable in your missile spewing boat not having to do anything else than to lock a target and enable your mods assuming you're not nanoed. IF you are nano fit THEN the skill of the pilot begins to make a difference because small pilot errors can lead to death. http://tri.exanimo.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=80451 here's your invincible invulnerable i-win vaga for ya. I was doing 5.5k/sec with it. I warped into a mega at 0 and it was sensor boosted so it almost insta-locked me due to my high sig radius from the mwd and insta-webbed me. Took only about 20 seconds from that to the point that my vaga died. And tbh I didn't fly a vaga since, for the simple reason that I need a lot more time accommodating to nano-style piloting and a lot more skill at it before I can afford to throw 250mil out of the window on another vaga. Try and fly one before u start the no-end whine threads u noobs. I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?
Avataris The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:41:00 - [89] Originally by: Inflexible Originally by: King Hopy A solo nanoship (par the ishtar) cant kill anything alone? It can always try without risk. They are not overpowered in terms of killing power because half assed fitted ship can usually drive them away. They are overpowered in terms of invulnerability and griefing power. They enable to try picking easy targets without worry about tough ones. So can recons, so can a gang of inties, so can a gang with covops scout, this really isnt a advantage unique to nanocuisers. But then I suppose you'll be wanting all of those nerfed as well? just as soon as you're done ruining HACS. Picking your targets is sort of a fundamental skill required of a good FC. Ofcourse it will be easier in more manouverable ships, hence HAC gangs as opposed to BS gangs. I'm sure your intentions are not to kill diversity in eve, but that's what you are doing. By removing the option to roam in hit and run gangs and cause disruption to enemy fleets. By forcing everyone to blob up in ever bigger and blobbier gangs. The way some people talk its as if a gatecamp has been a complete failure unless it wipes out every last enemy ship that passes through it. I for one dont fancy gatecamps that are 100% efficient, as there would be no more point in attempting to roam. Stop trying to make the game fit your mode of play, and join the rest of who us who are having fun.
Skeiron	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:48:00 - [90] Instead of: Non-nano-pilot: Nerf speed!!1 I can't hit a vaga orbitting at 13km and even if I could it can just run away since it is faster. Look at it from both sides of the argument: Nano-pilot: Nerf tank!!1 I can't kill anything when I'm going high transversal, since my damage is gimped too then, and they can just ask for reinforcements while I deal crappy dps that doesn't hurt their tank a bit. Compare, think, call it balance. Taking away the speed from speedtankers is like taking away the lowslots on an armortanker ------------------------- When EvE Online meets Real Life



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