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Juha85
Beasts of Burden
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.12.25 14:26:00 -
[241]
 Originally by: Inflexible
Originally by: Semkhet
I never said that vaga's aren't extensively used. I say that as soon they are NOT in gang, they seldom represent a threat for a similar or bigger ship.
They are much more used and still have comparable losses, see the problem?
Originally by: Semkhet
And as soon a vaga is ganged, their effectiveness is a moot point because they are NOT the ship which will deliver the main DPS which will bring down the target.
Vaga don't need uber DPS, because he always dictates if there will be fight or not. And THATS what makes him overpowered. Did you even bother to read entire thread?
Originally by: Semkhet
AAA is the most interesting since the set of stats is much more complete. Just check the number of destroyed vagas for the last 3 days... And we are talking about an invulnerable ship right? 
Of course they lose some - look how much they use them. But they have insane survival ratio.
And I have one final question for you: Are you trying to troll or are you simply ignorant?
What part do you not understand about minmatar and especially the vagabond. Minmatar are the race that specializes in speed and hit&run tactics. Especially the vagabond, it's the intented role of the ship. If you take away the vaga's option of running away you leave the ship without a role at all. It can't do damage, it can't tank ... It can only tackle & run. By all means nerf the speed of a vaga but give it one more dmg bonus and another gun.
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Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
Eiskalt
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Posted - 2007.12.25 18:03:00 -
[242]
And that¦s why the gun and cap race has the zealot with a lot of turrets and no cap problems... oh wait. 
Nerfing speed would not make the vagabond and other ships immobile... but maybe it would result in them being no longer immune to missiles and maybe you could catch them a bit better with webs without them sliding out of web range because of the insane speed. And that¦s a problem with a lot of ships that are not even designed for speed tanking.
Speed should not be nerfed into oblivion of course! But there should be a limit or something like that, there are just too many modules/implants increasing the speed these days.
No amount of balancing can fix playing like a moron! |
DeathsEmbrace
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Posted - 2007.12.25 18:32:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Eiskalt
Nerfing speed would not make the vagabond and other ships immobile... but maybe it would result in them being no longer immune to missiles and maybe you could catch them a bit better with webs without them sliding out of web range because of the insane speed. And that¦s a problem with a lot of ships that are not even designed for speed tanking.
Speed should not be nerfed into oblivion of course! But there should be a limit or something like that, there are just too many modules/implants increasing the speed these days.
I have to agree about a lot of gang ships are being speed fitted to avoid damage, but as has previously been said its only really effective in gang or in a 1v1 confrontation where the speed setup ship can dictate wether to fight or not. But thats pvp you adjust, learn and change your tactics to suit. So 1v1 a vaga might slip away big deal, if you catch one though he's f*****. It's part of the game machanics, deal with it.
On the point of missiles though there is no effective counter measure except out running them. Before anyone declares defenders missiles ftw (try them). Anything closer than 10km and they're not fast enough to intercept the incoming missiles. Plus when facing a drake because you have to activate the launchers everytime a missile is fired against you theres no way of deflecting the majority of dps coming from missile boats like the caracal, drake, raven. Not to mention that that stops your dps.
I'm not saying that ccp should noob missile boats but there needs to be some sort of equivalent to a tracking disrupter, for missiles, if your gonna reduce speed, (removing it as an option to avoid missile damage). So that theres an effective counter measure to them. BTW an effective counter to speed is webs, (they are designed for that job) and you don't need to be in a speed fitted huggin for that. Try web drones on your BS, you might be surprised at how effective they can be. Especially in BS gangs.
Speed and speed fits is a big part of the game, its a form of tanking. Deal with it rather than b**** about it. Learn, and adapt. Theres counters out there, learn to use them.
just my 2 cents.
To live is to die, and to die is to give life. Thus pain is a form of euphoria.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
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Lrrp
Minmatar
Gallente Mercantile Exchange
Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.12.25 20:17:00 -
[244]
Let me see if I can sum up this 2nd speed nerf (remember the 1st one was going to take care of the problem?):
A guy in his stock ford escort enters a formula one race and during practice, sees how fast everyone else's race car is and then complains to the race officials that it is unfair the other drivers have faster cars. Officials, after due consideration, agree and tell everyone new rules will now be implemented. No turbo charged engines will be allowed. No engines over a certain horsepower. No special blend fuel. No wide tires... etcetera etcetera. Then of course the track officials wonder why all the fans leave.
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L70Rogue
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Posted - 2007.12.25 20:41:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Edited by: Shadowsword on 25/12/2007 11:23:01
Originally by: Semkhet
Want to buy a clue: Top 20 T2 ship destruction rates
As we can see, the vagabond destruction rate is just a bit higher than the one concerning cerberus'es.
Also, taking into account that the average stay on an EvE player corresponds to approximately 7 months, first not everybody and it's mother are flying HAC's, and despite Caldari being the major race in demographic density, second not every Caldari mission runner is regularly loosing cerberuses in missions.
So maybe Lyria could explain us HOW THE HELL cerberus & vagabond destruction rates are almost similar given the complete different set of abilities and role these ships imply.
I know that being able to display OBJECTIVE & FACTUAL numbers showing that vaga's have almost the same destruction rate like a non-nano HAC isn't what the anti-nano whining crowd appreciates, but so is reality.
And that you don't want to cope with reality should remain your sole and private burden...
How many Cerberus are used in pvp, compared to the number of vaggabonds used in pvp? From my experience, I find about 7-8 Vaggabonds for every Cerberus, which, given their similar number of ships destroyed, would mean that a Cerberus life expectancy is 7-9 times higher...
So long that most guns have about 0% chance to hit a speed-tanking ship and even some precision missiles do 0.0 damage, you can say anything you want, something is borked. Badly.
exactly
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Chencherra
Gallente
Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2007.12.25 20:42:00 -
[246]
in the end ccp kills all ships currently in existance and creates one ship that does 10km/s with t2 equip, can web for 50km, can permajam with 1 multispec, can scram 50km, has 500m^3 drone space and 200% dmg for drones per whatever level, can kill ships with one volley from its guns, insta locks everything and can use ddd's. and in the end everyone will have to fly them and we will all be very happy cause everything is balanced.
if i want a balanced game i'd play pong !
ccp should ban all that whiners that shout "nerf ship XXX its too [insert word]"
at least they should change all races ships to gallente ships for ballance. just because they look cool. and same chances for everyone.
just my 2billion cents.
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Minerva Moore
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Posted - 2007.12.25 21:38:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Victor Ivanov
Stack nerf speed mods, fine. But there will need be some form of balancing towards the Minmatar race, or the entire race will fall apart.
I'll help and clarify that last statement.
"The entire race will fall apart" means that we might see gang partially composed of something other than minmatar ships in the future. 
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Minerva Moore
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Posted - 2007.12.25 21:40:00 -
[248]
Originally by: Lrrp
Then of course the track officials wonder why all the fans leave.
Sure.
If you can't get any more safe and carefree ganks eve is gonna die.
Yeah that's gonna happen.
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Minerva Moore
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Posted - 2007.12.25 21:43:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Ione Hunt
Yay, the F1-F8 theoretical EFT-setup crowd won \o/ <snip> we should all fly the same ship with exactly the same HP and damage output 
You mean.... like everyone is flying nanofits now?
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Minerva Moore
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Posted - 2007.12.25 21:48:00 -
[250]
Originally by: VoYvod
if you think flying a nano ship is easy because you just press orbit and the mwd you're an idiot - go die in a fire , the amount of watching your speed, range , cap , drone health (depending the ship) and the sheer cost of the ship makes it balanced.
OMFG! You're right!
The reason nanofits are all but untouchable (and that they totally dominate 0.0 pvp) is not that they are overpowered, it's that you are such an amazingly cool and skilled person!
Can I please worship you now, Master Jedi?
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Steyr Daghan
thx for all the fish
Minuit.
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Posted - 2007.12.25 22:04:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Semkhet
And you should start to use your brain for what nature intended it: THINKING.
A) Number of built Cerberus = Number of built Vagabonds.
B) Number of popped Cerberus slightly below number of popped vagas.
All of you use and interpret the stats in a flawed manner.
Build vs destroyed says nothing at all unless we know how they are used.
For example CNR is an expensive faction ship that is almost exclusively used in missions. Few people would risk their prized CNR, meaning they would never pvp with em and would warp at the slightest hint of the ship being overwhelmed. A typical pvp ship would fare much differently, not because of its "survivability" but because it is put in harms way on a regular basis.
None of you have any numbers on how the shiptypes are actually used. That part is all speculation.
Therefore any arguments made for or against nano based on the build/destroyed stats are FAIL.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2007.12.25 22:08:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Semkhet
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Im 110% sure that you actually didnt read what I wrote. You totally ignored that I above did explain the reason why destruction rates are the same of vaga and other hacs. WTB brain and glasses for you so you can read first. 
Cope with reality? You gonna start getting on with personal attacks now just like the guy in the other thread? How about you just stfu and actually read what I posted instead. There we go, now we are speaking in the same manner. Happy?
And you should start to use your brain for what nature intended it: THINKING.
A) Number of built Cerberus = Number of built Vagabonds.
B) Number of popped Cerberus slightly below number of popped vagas.
You are implying that Vagabonds used in PvP enjoy a much higher survival rate than Cerberuses, but this automatically implies that most of Cerberus deaths come from mission running.
In order words, you're stating that almost 50% of the Cerberus pilots are skilled enough to fly a HAC but don't know how to do these repetitive missions without loosing their ship.
Conclusion: You believe almost half of Cerberuses pilots are ********, while I believe most of the anti-nano whiners are so smart that they did not realize yet that pwning nanoships needs a bit more than just locking and opening fire...
Its amazing how youre still missing my point and dont put words in my mouth.
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[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Syn G
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Posted - 2007.12.25 22:24:00 -
[253]
people that say the vagabond is overpowered are mad because they cant get on the killmail. if he wants a fight, more than likely he will die. so the general vagabond is not really a threat, much less overpowered.
so what if a ceptor goes 20km/s? his job is to tackle. if hes doing it at 20km/s, thats all hes doing. not like hes gonna solo 5 BS in it.
speed is not overpowered. people are just tired of getting shafted out of killmails. i for one count my ship intact after a fight as a victory. dont need mails to prove that.
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Natalia Trade
Amarr Trading Company Inc
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Posted - 2007.12.29 21:23:00 -
[254]
Blah Blah Blah, Nano Nano it has become the standard in 0.0, you see nothing but HAC's Nano Nano up the ying yang, why? It is easy, pure and simple, it is easy.
Whine ? I think not, just stating the obvious, Any ship that travels more than 2-3 k per sec is just cheeze, cheddar cheeze, it is so easy to just run, or just hit the MWD back to the gate and leave, the Nano Nano Horse$#!^ is old, boring, and really needs nerfed all to hell.
I would much rather go out in gangs of 20-30 with ships fit for real tank and gank and fight it out the old fashioned way instead of the easy standard way 0.0 warefare has become.
Point blank and simple speed does need nerfed, and has so for a long time now, and yes you say speed you will get the word Vega come up, just go and look at any killboard in Eve you will see nothing but Nano Nano Vega X 3 or more involved, why ? because if thier intranet space ship gets threatned in any way or if they bit off more than they can chew they can run like women and fight another day without any risk period.
Vega = HACEPTOR Websters:A HAC verson of an interceptor. Oh noze I just didnt say that did I.
I know truth hurts dosent it. But wait I am an empire carebear who shoots roids and never enters low sec and does blob warefare with POS. You must have to be a 0.0 POS blob warefare specialist to be able to coment that speedracer ships is a joke tbqfh.
end rant.....................
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Hans Angry
Caldari
Pyrrhus Sicarii
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Posted - 2007.12.29 21:30:00 -
[255]
ccp, way to **** up something that doesnt need a nerf, your the best
Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. And it was ten times too big :p If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
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Jordan Musgrat
Convergent
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.12.29 23:31:00 -
[256]
F@gabond is fine. I hate it, but every time we go out trying to kill a Vaga, we kill it. It's not invincible, it cannot do squat if you know what you're doing, has to orbit at 300km to avoid dying. I don't mind that much, do you?
Seriously guys, CCP doesn't read this, so it doesn't matter. If they read it, they would have seen us posting 100x times "If you're nerfing damps, redo the bonuses do damp ships like you had to do to ECM boats, you'll just break the ships."
Now, just chill, and play the game. If it's too much to ask, to get a blackbird with 2 matari ECM in gang, then you need a new corp. Mine is recruiting!!
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Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0... |
UGLYUGLY
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Posted - 2007.12.30 03:55:00 -
[257]
I have been reading through a few pages of this thread then the last one, so excuse me please if i bring up things that have already been discussed to death.
I do not think that Nano boats are over powered in combat. For example the vaga that everyone is on about. If I 1v1 a vaga in a tanked BC or a HAC I have no illusions that I will kill it or at the very least be able to tank it to the point I can go check my emails.
The problem is that nano boats will just run away. And here is where I get to my main point;
Nano is the new WCS of old. As soon as something looks ugly or goes pear shaped they are burning in a straight line towards a SS or celestial body. And there is next to no way to stop them (unless they already messed up big time).
I am guessing nano didn't use to be such a big problem is because people just used WCS to be risk adverse. Once those got nerfed. People have turned to Nano for the same risk aversion.
CCP nerfed WCS to stop people running away and avoiding combat. And I feel that is why they are now nerfing speed (so i have been told, no idea what this nerf is). I personally support CCP in the nerf of speed.
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Wiktorja
Caldari
Universal Army
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Posted - 2007.12.30 04:23:00 -
[258]
Edited by: Wiktorja on 30/12/2007 04:25:28
Personally, I think the whole speed disparity between and within ships is rather stupid. Just ask yourself if it make sense to have ships with orders of magnitude greater speed than 'regular' ships. Think of most modes of transportation, for instance cars. Say the average car is doing 100-150 Km/h, does it make sense to have modifications that will make that same car go 2000 Km/h? Is the example weak? Well, not really. Think of other Sci FI stuff you know about. How 'competitive' is it to have a civilization with ships 10 times faster than yours? What happens when caveman technology meets high tech? Total domination. At some point, if Eve combat is all about speed, then the game degenerates into one where people only fly fast ships leading to similar setups, etc... BORING. Eventually, everyone is flying only a few type of ship, with only a few types of setup.
I think what people respect in the game is a sense of futuristic realism. The way speed is modified with ship equipment is not what I would call reasonable or realistic.
If there was to be a speed nerf, I would imagine that something reasonable would be to give absolute increases to ship speed from mods and equipment, instead of percent-based ones that stack. This way, slow ships would get relatively faster than fast ships using the same mods (i.e. greater % increase)
Other option that I think would be reasonable is to have ships take on damage based on how many times faster it's flying over it's base speed, because of collisions with radiation and space debris. Make the function of damage taken proportional to the speed squared so that high speeds are still accessible, but for limited periods of time.
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Noisrevbus
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Posted - 2007.12.30 04:26:00 -
[259]
Originally by: arbalesttom
I find it more than funny that every time 'speed' and 'nano' are in a topic, 'rapier' and 'huginn' are mentioned, just like every player in eve can fly them.
Yes, speed needs to be balanced, especially mwd - ab's.
Did i post here already? I'm not sure if i did and mentioned something similar already, but this qoute here sum up the malbalance with speed so well.
The problem is not that speed is uncatchable or completely dominate every aspect of EVE, you can catch speed ships. The problem is that even though EVE rest on specialization and extremes, it is far too extreme. Combine that with CCP's drive to deal with everything that have become considered 'requirements' for PvP.
That's the problem, the anti-relation between speed and web being so exclusive. You put MWD on almost any ship today, and you put Webs on almost any ship to counterbalance. As was the case with ECM pre-nerf, as was the case with NOS pre-nerf and so was the case with RSD now recently pre-nerf.
Speed is too simplistic as it stands now. Injected MWD's have such as vast advantage over AB's, to the point where AB's are not used. Webs have such a vast advantage over many other counter measures to the point when they are not used. There are alot of modules taking a hit and a bad rep over not being 'needed' in the speed-game. I have mentioned TDs as a typical example of that, a module that rest on the speed game/anti-game being more dynamic simply hold no value in a binary game of 'free' or 'webbed'. Just as how the ECM, NOS or RSD game was as simplistic in whoever did that one thing better than his opponent (who locked first etc.).
Looking at it with such eyes, im optimistic that a speed-nerf can be a very good thing for diversity and alot of unused or underused modules (and thus ships) in this game.
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Daerious El5engare
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Posted - 2007.12.30 04:51:00 -
[260]
The solution is simple!
Just nerf every type of ship but the one I fly because I cannot be bothered to learn how to deal.
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Slayton Ford
STK Scientific
Black-Out
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Posted - 2007.12.30 05:25:00 -
[261]
Ship speed isnt the problem. Its implants that cause such a disparity between stock T2 fittings and implanted T2 speed.
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This sig has been censored in fear of recieving the ban hammer... |
Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.30 05:33:00 -
[262]
speed is fine you are not... speed tanks are geat leave them alone
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Ruciza
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.12.30 05:37:00 -
[263]
1. Nanogang enters your space
2. Defense gang activates
Either
Defense gang is adequate
-> Nanogang engages and is beaten (win)
-> Nanogang escapes (draw)
or
Defense gang is inadequate
-> Defensegang is engaged and beaten (lose)
-> Nanogang are sissies and run anyway (draw)
In case of a draw, both parties lose the same time and effort, and that's balanced. In the other cases, "the better man wins".
-> No problem with Nano.
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NAFnist
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.12.30 05:37:00 -
[264]
Id like to see that only inties, vagas and dictors where ships one would consider maxing for speed. The broken part must be the fact that just about every ship in eve can get to some insane speeds.
Sure the snakes will make anything fast, but today i can nano just about any ship with no implants.
Huginns (and other cruisers) would be fine doing ~2000 m/s, so would vaga at ~4000 m/s and ceptors at ~6000 m/s
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Clearspace Operations
Carpe Diem.
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Posted - 2007.12.30 05:58:00 -
[265]
Reasons NOT to nerf speed:
1. Minmatar are the HEAVIEST skill training race in the game. You want to be good at flying minmatar? Better play the game for a year at LEAST. I don't think some of you understand how hard it is to be minmatar. The typhoon is a GREAT example. To effectively fly it you need missile (cruise and torps), gun, drone, and armor/nav. Raven? Shields and missiles. Gallente? Drones, armor, and blasters. Amarr? Lasers and armor. The vagabond needs INSANE gun skills to do any worth while damage, and it takes a expensive as hell fit.
2. Interceptors can go 10 km/s, uhhh great, now try to kill something bigger then a cruiser...... It's a t2 ship, it's supposed to be pretty good.
3. The speed nerf is for the DICTOR, not the others. If I were in charge, I would increase dictor mass and make it harder for them to accelerate. It can still go fast but it can't "jump" out of it's bubble so fast nothing can touch it. Easy, simple and fixes the problem they were ACTUALLY talking about.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2007.12.30 11:13:00 -
[266]
I'm always torn on Nerfs and boosts, I really am. I get killed as much as anyone in this game, probably quite a bit more than most, but it's only been in the last several months that almost all of the people who killed me were effectively invincible. I can't sling a missile fast enough to catch a non factioned non implanted T2 interceptor much less a factioned implanted one. On any of the ships I fly I'm lucky to be able to jam a webber in there much less a warp jammer and none of them move fast enough to make up for any of the problems I see. Basically, when a vaga decides It's time for me to die in PvP, unless someone comes to help I'll eventually die and there isn't a whole lot I can do about besides make it possible to run away.
That being said - there are a whole host of ship fittings that can be bad on the receving end. After I got jammed for the millioth time I decided I liked ECM and finally started learning those skill. If I get lucky my scorp can keep a BS jammed most of the time. While with a great many ships this makes me effectively invincible to THEM, there are ways around it with most ships. Most of the nerf requests or boost requests fit into this category of "things that are terribly *** but at least there are reasonable counters available".
Speed to me does NOT fit into that category. Sure those super fast ships have targeting problems of their own and their DPS suffers. If those super fast ships happen to fire missiles themselves, the gimped DPS is mitigated. I don't mind getting killed in a fair fight. I don't even mind getting killed in an unfair fight (because who HONESTLY fights fair anyway?). But I at least would LIKE the ability to have a fitting that can reasonably counter one of these things without completely changing ship class/weapon type/race.
I don't see how this problem was not forseen though. Even when I started the game about two years ago it was clear you could get an interceptor to go SCREAMING fast. I'm not sure what the speed records were at the time but as a noob with 500k SP I could get a condor to top 1 km/s with the good named AB. The biggest problem I see is there is no good solution to the problem that doesn't gimp an ENTIRE race. Best solution I can think of is to make the EW items rely on tracking like guns do - at least then when you have that crow screaming along at OMGWTF speed he'll have a bit of trouble tackling you.
At any rate, I'm sure everything will change once I get used to the idea of running and screaming from a Vaga the minute I see one anyway so I'm not going to be too worked up.
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J Valkor
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.12.30 11:35:00 -
[267]
I saw a nano vaga today. It got caught by a Sabre. Poor bastard was going too fast for most of the cruise and heavy missiles chasing him. The second the web touched him all the missiles impacted. It was only a tech 2 fit with a singly poly carb. I think the enemy gang's plan was to scare off all of my support with their four BS and have the vaga hold me in place. Didn't work out very well for them. Incidentally, the Curse is an awesome ship.
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.12.30 11:50:00 -
[268]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 30/12/2007 11:51:25
"We fly nano to counter the blob!" To a certain extent this is true. The chief factor governing your decision is the reduced risk however. This will of course be denied but I've 'been there, done that' and people fly nano chiefly because it means they win and generally get out with their ship alive. (If you can do both and still win everytime like a couple of corps I could mention then you know you're onto a winner.)
This is borked risk versus reward which is the chief premise Eve works on. This game is risky to play, losing means something and that whole idea is one we cannot afford to lose. Otherwise Eve just becomes another world of warcraft game.
I pretty much exclusively fly nano ships because I enjoy it and I'm good at it but I'm not arsed if they take a nerf, because I know just how powerful they are if flown correctly. If you want to win consistently its basically the lack of balls way to fly. Thats the cold hard truth.
Again its borked risk versus reward. If you fly a balanced fleet consisting of slower ships and win then the risk was greater but the reward was the same.
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you all smell! |
Evron
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Posted - 2008.01.01 00:25:00 -
[269]
Who wants my stuff?
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.01 00:28:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Evron
Who wants my stuff?
me
--
Originally by: "QProQ"
When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
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